/jp/ - Otaku Culture

what a stupid question.

I am.

Who is the slutties Touhou?

REPORTED!

>>8614167
This guy is.

>>8614167
Well if this guy says he is, who are we to disagree with him

Superman dude.

Reimu is. It's canon, ZUN agree don't bother him about it.

Mima Repulsa

Shikieiki

I've been wondering this for a while.
Isn't it more or less the person playing, the one controlling the character, that determines a 2hus' strength? Then, wouldn't that make the gamer the strongest/most important?
Just imagine a cannon series where a "chosen few" characters are brought into Gensokyo to control the girls, and the girls protect their controllers from being eaten alive, sort of like Gunslinger Girl. Doesn't it seem the least bit interesting?

Zun is the strongest Touhou.

>>8614361
I swear, he better make himself the final boss for the final Touhou chapter, and make his powers beer-based. Having the pattern form a glass-shape before bursting apart or having a different, beer-suds like projectile for his stage, I don't know what...
I'll be sorely disappointed otherwise.

This is like asking what hax power is stronger super hax power or super hax power.

There is so much hax in touhou it's silly.

Yuyuko, has the power to kill any mortal. Most touhous aren't mortal but still, that's fucking hax.

Suika, manipulation of density. The woman can shit black holes if she wants to. Fucking hell the Earth can be destroyed by her in seconds, fucking hax.

Remilia, power of destiny. Think about that, fucking destiny. Suddenly everyone around her loses the game and she becomes a mega billionaire overnight. Super hax.

Flandre, absolute destruction. She simply imagines something, then imagines herself destroying it. She doesn't even need to see it for god's sake. She destroyed a meteor coming toward the mansion without ever leaving the basement. Super hax.

Yukari, manipulation of borders. She even manipulated the border of life and death, that's not even a real border! That's a conceptual border! Fucking shit reality is her chew toy. Super hax.

Reimu, the power to summon the gods. That's it. She can do ... well, any fucking thing she wants to by summoning the right god. That's not even right, she's like, all the touhous rolled up into one. I don't know why all of them don't live in underground bunkers and hope Reimu isn't on her period getting pissed about something.

>>8614361

Doesn't he weigh like 90 pounds? That would kill him if he drank that.

>>8614424
110 lbs, last I checked.
I'm just surprised he isn't a fatass for how much empty calories and carbs beer has.

>>8614431
>>8614424
Zun is a beer youkai/god. He can control how wholesome or toxic alcohol is to him.

Shinki
Shikieiki
moonbitches

>>8614439
Yeah, but, does he eat anything at all? Even pretzels with his beer?

>>8614454
Hard to say when all 3 of those are powerful only where they're concerned or in their domain.

>>8614354

Isn't that what happens in F/S Night

Yukari. And if she isn't, she will just manipulate the border that separates what she can do and what she can't so that she is the most powerful.

Fuck.

>>8614703
"Yukari Yakumo believes that herself, Yuyuko Saigyouji and Reimu Hakurei to be together "no match for" the Yama."

that is not an idea of "the strongest" but that means Shikieiki is to be placed quite high on the scale.

What if ZUN drank so much beer that he passed out and choked on his own vomit?

>>8614404
>I don't know why all of them don't live in underground bunkers and hope Reimu isn't on her period getting pissed about something.
But that's what they do.

>>8614734

Then moot would have to delete /jp/ because the only reason it exists is for Touhou

The strongest Touhou is the strongest player character.

>>8614806

Mystic Square Mima

Could the strongest Touhou beat the strongest Type-Moon?

yuuka kazami.
no question.

>>8614161
she

>>8614831

Yes. Every type-moon has a touhou counterpart that's more powerful.

>>8614714
I really hate the way people use this without even going to look at the quote in question. All she did was mention "We're no match for them, so we'd better leave, okay?" out loud.

The thing is, there's a lot of context here that people aren't getting. First of all, no matter how strong Eiki is, they couldn't possibly be in any real danger. And the reason, is because Eiki only judges the dead. When it comes to those who are still alive, the worst Eiki would do to them is lecture them and possibly challenge them to a spell card duel.

However, there's no risk involved in a spell card duel, so it's not a real fight.

So then what, exactly are they "no match for"? It doesn't even make sense.

To me, it looks more like she just doesn't wanna be chewed out by the Yama and is telling her friends that they will have to listen to troublesome lectures if they don't want to leave.

There is a precedent for this, too. When the Yama is out and about in Gensokyo, everyone runs off somewhere cause they don't wanna be lectured. That's how it's always been. Why would that not apply to Yukari?

>>8614871
It's simple.

Eiki has the power to send your ass to whatever realm she sees fit for your sins.

Such power has been deemed more than a match by Yukari compared to Yuyuko's, Reimu's and her own abilities.

Concept-based abilities do not overcome the fact that they have a limit of how much they can do, it appears there's a yet-to-be-indentified power measure in Gensokyo, and Shiki is on top.

>>8614871
>However, there's no risk involved in a spell card duel, so it's not a real fight.

Duh, she's referring to real battles, i.e: comparing REAL powers.

>>8614871
Eiki WILL judge you when you die, no matter your power level... therefore to enforce her ruling she SHOULD have the power to overcome you.

The fact that one of her spellcards is a reflection of Aya means she can reflect using the Cleanse Crystal Mirror ANYONE who stands in front of her, making her power variable in the form of:

Eiki's Power+Whoever is being mirrored.

The Yama is absurdly powerfull because she has to be... but is also a judge, her 'defeat more youkai to reimu and be more youkai-ish to yukari' attitude is just the proof that such power was placed on someone who is to use it correctly... but that only justifies my whole reasoning.

This is like the Indexverse powerlevel threads they have on 2ch

>>8614923
>>8614926

Lol you guys don't get it yet?

Yukari's not even talking about being judged or what Eiki is really capable of in this situation. That's what I'm telling you. Why would she be? There's no reason why this would be relevant when the most they'd get is a lecture.

Are they planning on dying and going to Higan any time soon? No. Yuyuko is explicitly permitted to spend the rest of eternity in the Netherworld, never to be judged, and Reimu and Yukari sure don't look like they're going to kick the bucket any time soon.

They're certainly not going to go get on Komachi's boat right now. They're in Gensokyo, okay? Eiki is NOT going to be judging them any time soon. Moreover, she presents absolutely NO immediate threat that they are "no match for." There's nothing to run from. There isn't going to be any serious fight.

And yet, "We're no match for them, so we'd better leave, okay?" is obviously being said in an attempt to get them to leave right now. In other words, at the present moment, the reason they must leave is because they are "no match for" the Yama. This statement only applies to the point in time in which she's saying it, I don't know how much more plainly I can say this. And yet, I already explained that at the present moment, there is no risk for them.

This means that Yukari could not possibly be talking about facing judgment or how strong Eiki really is. She's not thinking about anything of the sort.

The only way you can argue against this is if you grab the Japanese text and start translating, and prove to me that the translation I'm using is incorrect. If you want to do that, have at it. I'll paste it here for you:
「きっと、罪深き紫の桜を見に来たのよ。あの方には逆らえないから、ここ
は退却した方がいいわよ？」

>>8614993

>あの方には逆らえないから

The way Yama is addressed implies that it's not even a matter of "fighting" her. The statement therefore does not support a powerlevel argument.

>>8614976
>Suwako, Erin, Kaguya tier 1
>Sakuya tier 4
BULLSHIT EXPLAIN YOURSELF

also needs to be crossed over with discussion with >>>/co/ but they'd have good input with the omega lvl Bobby Drake ( iceman ) think so Cirno should in all honestly be at least tier 2 or 3

>>8615027

2channers are notorious for inflating moonbitch levels. Check out their saikyou threads, full of moon circlejerking.

>>8614976

>Kaguya and Eirin in tier 1
>Yukari tier 2
>Yuuka tier 3
>Sakuya tier 4
>Marisa lower than patchouli
>Flan lower than Remilia

This is full of bullshit.

>>8615035

Yuuka being a strong youkai is a meme like Sanae being a slut.

>>8614993
Yes she is.

You can assume all you want, but what's there is there, mangle its definition if want to, you're not gonna change a thing.

We don't know if Shiki can only touch you if you're dead, we also don't know if Yukari was talking about an inmediate encounter. Obviously there was a reason for Yukari to mention powerful beings such as Yuyuko, Reimu and herself, naturally it means that Shiki could overcome them.

Physically?
No question.

>>8615044
O-okay. Just ignore >>8615015 who has already confirmed that it doesn't even imply a fight in the first place, and continue your faggotry on your own.

>>8614951
>implying that Eiki will inevitably judge everyone

Don't forget that people can separate themselves from the cycle of life and death, okay? I already explained this in another thread, but you can do this any number of ways. Achieve immortality, reach Nirvana, extinguish your soul (permanent death), or beat up all the shinigami that come after you. You can also get kidnapped by a Kasha, if you're a ghost.

There is no reason to believe that Eiki will inevitably judge them. Moreover, Yuyuko will never face judgment in the first place. Why would Yukari include Yuyuko in "us" if she's talking about facing the judgment? Now then, let's look at some other misconceptions here.

>implying that Eiki has no superiors she can rely on if she gets in over her head

She doesn't need to be the strongest. There is absolutely no need for it. You want to know why? In the Touhou world, there's a group called the "Ten Kings," and they're at the very top of the whole afterlife thing. Their names are given at the bottom of the PMiSS article on Yama, and hey, Eiki's name definitely isn't on there. This means she does have superiors she can rely on.

The Mirror thing is actually a fair point. However, there is no reason to believe that she has infinite energy with which to cast this spell. If she did, then she would be omnipotent, which is absurd. Furthermore, it's probable that the target has to be reflected in the Mirror, which can't be done unless they are in plain sight.

>>8614976
>Toyosatomimi no Miko
>Tier 2

What? I don't understand. Why is she so high?

>>8615053
>Just ignore >>8615015 who has already confirmed that it doesn't even imply a fight in the first place

I wasn't implying that, and it doesn't even matter.

''We are no match for her'' does not inmediately suggest a physical fight, that quote could be referring to poker skills for all we know.

It's the sheer fact that Yukari has admitted inferiority to her alongside with two powerful touhous, if you want to keep believing in your silly fanwank theories then go ahead.

Also, we're not talking about the ''Ten Kings'' because we don't have info about them, so far, Shiki is the strongest touhou.

>>8615035
Almost that entire Tier 2 invalidates Flan's shitty power, that includes Remilia. Flandre's just more destructive than her at best.

It's like saying Marisa is more powerful than Reimu because she has the tendancy to blow shit up and cause quite a bit collateral damage.

>>8615054
she can listen ten different people simultaneously!!

>>8615071
I'm pretty sure her ability isn't taken into account.

>>8615064
>Shiki is the strongest touhou.

I'm sorry but you have given not a single evidence to support this argument.

You already admitted that Yukari's statement does not even begin to prove that Yukari/Yuyuko/Reimu is inferior in a real fight with the Yama, so that's irrelevant.

And you failed to understand that the whole reason I mentioned the Ten Kings in the first place is to prove that Eiki does have superiors, which takes away the NECESSITY for her to be the strongest in order to carry out her duties. In other words, you can no longer use that as a reason to say that she has to be stronger than anyone else in Gensokyo.

So "Shiki is the strongest" simply because you say so? Alright, if you want to keep believing in your silly fanwank theories then go ahead.

>>8615078

While I don't fully understand how Tao works, I do understand that it does work.
Apparently it works real good at that.

Eiren

>>8615078
Miko is only another touhou with shity powers

>>8615092
If that's the case, then why isn't Mononobe no Futo up there as well?

I think Reimu is the strongest Touhou. It does not mean I want to fuck her nor does it mean I want to lick her armpits, or smell her cunt.

>>8614976
Garbage chart. Yuuka is tier-3, and below the NEET. This is clearly wrong, as Yuuka is the strongest youkai and has learned the ultimate magic.

That makes her stronger than anyone else.

>>8615107
see
>>8615037


Yuuka's power is fanwanked out of the ass. She cannot stand up against anyone on that list above her and some on the same tier as her.

>>8615102

Magic sword.
Once you hit max level you got no option but to gear up. So while Tao does work it's got some balancing issues and is prone to gear inflation.

Seriously speaking, though? I'm not sure. For all I know prince Shotoku was just an ordinary guy, as ordinary as supposed descendants of solar deities get.

I'd like to think Remi is really powerful but she gets her ass kicked a lot and I'm pretty sure Akyuu got bribed to produce that blantantly obvious vampire propaganda that described her powers.

>>8615123
Miko is also immortal to some degree. That already sets the bar high for her.

>>8614976
>next to last tier
what?

>>8615111
But that is simply incorrect. Yuuka does not display her true strength against enemies unless she considers them to be on her level. As we have not seen any of those battles, we can not correctly judge the true measure of her "ability" or "strength."

And, I repeat; she learned the ultimate magic. It's "ultimate" for a reason. It's without peer. She is simply the best.

>>8615123
>For all I know prince Shotoku was just an ordinary guy, as ordinary as supposed descendants of solar deities get.
His supposed miracles where great and unbelievable enough to warrant him a one-way ticket to Gensoukyou, that has to account for something.

This reminds me I should read up on him, that might be really interesting.

>>8615138
Sorry but that ultimate magic isn't going to get around manipulating fate, borders, or kill a god.

>>8615097

Despite the spelling error, this is a very valid suggestion, and I want people to realize this.

Chapter 3 of CiLR confirms that Eirin is a member of a certain small group of people. This group includes Tsukuyomi, who is an extremely important and powerful god, and his most trusted friends. It doesn't include anyone else. And moreover, this group was formed at a time when life was only just beginning to move from sea to land. Therefore, it logically follows that humans did not exist yet. This means that, other than the gods themselves, the only other beings on planet Earth were a bunch of animals. Moreover, these animals were seen as very impure by Tsukuyomi. He was disgusted by them. Why would he trust them?

This means that Eirin was always a goddess, and a very ancient one at that. And she is very much implied to be Omoikane.

There's much more to it than that, of course. There's also the fact that Yukari's dialogue about the Lunarians DO conclusively state that she is inferior to them in a real fight. We also know that she lost a war, in which Yuyuko and a whole bunch of youkai were participating, against the Lunarians in the past. If I remember right, in TH8 it's implied that magic actually originated from the Moon and that the Moon's magic is far more advanced and powerful than what those of the Earth possess.

And yet, Eirin is not merely a member of "the Lunarians." She is the single most intelligent one of their entire civilization, and is Tsukuyomi's most trusted advisor, and probably pioneered the majority of their advancements in medicine and technology. That is, before she left the Moon.

We also have every reason to believe that she was holding back in TH8. Just look at her official profile for TH8, where ZUN states that she holds back in order to not make the Princess feel bad about being so much weaker.

>>8615138
>It's without peer. She is simply the best.
Dude, this is a Touhou powerlevel thread. Do you realize how ridiculous you sound? There's more than a few characters who have powers that undermine reality. It's impossible to state one of them to simply be "the best".

>>8615085
>You already admitted that Yukari's statement does not even begin to prove that Yukari/Yuyuko/Reimu is inferior in a real fight with the Yama, so that's irrelevant.

What? I never did that, in fact, I SAID it was, what's wrong with your reading comprehension?

Listen bub, the words are there, you cannot change them, stop being so whiny and inconclusive, my sources are clear, yours are not, because there's none, you just have your own interpretation fanwank.

Is there somewhere that implies that Shiki is weaker than Yukari? No. Is there somewhere that implies that Yukari would be ''no match for'' Shiki? Yes, here it is, I already explained why it's meaninful despite not being ''pointing to powerlevels''.

The fact that you're returning the phrase ''fanwank'' when I'm using a canon phrase shows that you simply have no counter-argument and are childishly using the same words I used as a pathetic, base-less attempt to negate the value of my words.

>>8615085
I'm the one who placed the mirror argument.
Yes, it is unlikelly she can keep the mirror power going endlessly. and yes, you can overcome the cycle of life. yuyuko is a fair point. also is the fact that the Yama indeed answers to others... but she is a judge between judges (the highest judge of paradise) and foremost she is one that supports the cycle as it is...

now let us check the quote itself because you miss a very important point.
Yukari picked 2 very interesting people to 'join' her possible party.

Yukari herself is Chaos. She does things on a whim and will not take sides, she's not inherently evil but she's certainly not good.
Reimu is balance. That is her job. the spell card system was made to let anyone stand a chance... despite alignment.
Yuyuko is on the other hand... order. Why? because well... if you're not yuyuko, or any of the enlightened ones with roads to overcome death... well, you'll die eventually. a Death is part of the cycle.

Now, the yama's power is to distinguish good from evil (essentially Judging and imparting punishment, because asides the mirror she has a hammer that was MADE to do that) ... PLUS all those 3 powers... or at least one of them.

sure, you can't kill yuyuko, but you can confine her to another realm. sure you can't confine yukari to another realm but you can beat her (see the moon girls) and heck, you CAN kill Reimu.

The mirror is not just the skill to mimic, but the power to know who is attacking, judging gives the yama the edge on HOW said attack is being done and the hammer will do the trick.

it is a very complex and unnecesary logic... but I think it fits. you are most welcome to disagree, as I am equally to not agree with you.

>>8615138
>It's without peer. She is simply the best.

Post disregarded. Learn to argue without implementing fanboyism or bias.

>>8615138
First of all, Seihou isn't canon, Yuka gets the ''ultimate magic'' only in that game, this also would have to verify the fact that her route is canon, but it doesn't matter in the end.

Also, even if she did have the ''ultimate magic'' it's by no means the ''ultimate power'' nor does it ever say that she's more powerful than everyone else, or anyone at all. All we know is that Akyuu thinks she's scary and very dangerous.

>>8615141

Perhaps I should too, because the only one I know of with the name, while supposedly quite gifted and highly intelligent, is mostly remembered for political reforms.

Are the miracles part of his later, deified history?

>>8615147
>Tsukuyomi
>he

You can bet Tsukuyomi will turn out to be a cute girl in a silly hat.

>>8614976

This list is retarded beyond words.

>>8615138
>ultimate magic
>>8615143
>not going to get around etc
Stupid shit like this is why powerlevels thread are always retarded.

>>8615150
>what's wrong with your reading comprehension?
Your argument is based entirely on faulty reading comprehension. If you knew what the phrase actually indicated you wouldn't be using it as an argument.
>The fact that you're returning the phrase ''fanwank'' when I'm using a canon phrase shows that you simply have no counter-argument
You're using a canon phrase that you're clearly misinterpreting. Pointing that mistake out is a counter-argument. Christ.

Tenshi beat the shit out of Reimu.
Suika beat the shit out of Reimu.

Yorihime tied with Reimu.

Moonbitches aren't that broken.

>>8615180

While I disagree, I was indeed surprised.

>>8615150

>I never did that, in fact, I SAID it was, what's wrong with your reading comprehension?
>that quote could be referring to poker skills for all we know.

What's wrong with YOUR reading comprehension? You contradict yourself. Your entire point was that this quote has Yukari admitting that there is some form of inferiority, but you have no idea what this is, and you went as far as to say that it could even be in poker skills for all you know.

Therefore, you have absolutely no reason to believe that this statement could possibly IMPLY that Yukari/Reimu/Yuyuko are inferior to Eiki in a real fight.

We are discussing power levels here. And yet, this doesn't point to power levels at all. It's meaningless for this argument. Forget about that quote already.

>>8615147
Nowhere does it say Eirin is a goddess, she's just an alien, a really old one at that. You're exaggerating.

Age does not qualify for status or power anyway, but it does for knowledge.

Also if she was the strongest, she wouldn't have to fear about getting caught by the lunarians after her escape or not going all out against Reimu and Yukari.

>>8615189
Oh for fuck's sake, I was referring to the phrase itself as a way to explain that the japanese words have to be related to powerlevels in order for it to mean that, because the same thing happens in english, ''we are no match for her'' is the example, one cannot know what it is referring to without the context, that's why it doesn't matter whether these words refer to powerlevels in Japanese or not, it's still a matter of context. By this context, it's obvious that this IS a matter of power levels.

Was it seriously so hard to see your own post to see which point I was countering? Goddamn, people are so dense sometimes.

>>8615153
While your reasoning is solid enough to hold an opinion, it's still a bit faulty in terms of powerlevel discussion. Just because one can defeat the other doesn't mean the reverse can't happen, and "defeating" the opponent doesn't imply more powerful, either.
>sure, you can't kill yuyuko, but you can confine her to another realm.
Yuyuko should not disobey the Yama because the Yama has control over Hakugyokurou. She even made Hakugyokurou bigger so it could hold more people.
>sure you can't confine yukari to another realm but you can beat her (see the moon girls)
And as demonstrated with the princesses, Yukari knew that she couldn't beat them in a show of pure power and still "defeated" them. Yukari could likely "kill" the Yama and the Yama could likely "kill" Yukari. Just because they have the power to or have more influence, doesn't mean they're stronger than the other.
>and heck, you CAN kill Reimu.
Not if you want Gensokyo to keep existing. The existence of the Hakurei maiden is what keeps the Great Border up, and her death would result in Gensokyo's collapse. Furthermore, if youkai killed humans to a large extent, the youkai themselves would cease to exist, as Gensokyo needs a balance of the two to stay stable.

>>8615189
Oh for fuck's sake, I was referring to the phrase itself as a way to explain that the japanese words don't have to be related to powerlevels in order for it to mean that, because the same thing happens in english, ''we are no match for her'' is the example, one cannot know what it is referring to without the context, that's why it doesn't matter whether these words refer to powerlevels in Japanese or not, it's still a matter of context. By this context, it's obvious that this IS a matter of power levels.

Was it seriously so hard to see your own post to see which point I was countering? Goddamn, people are so dense sometimes.

REPOST: Crud, I made a point-countering mistake.

>>8615208
We're not talking about what should be done.

We're talking about what CAN be done, it WOULD be bad to kill Reimu, but one COULD kill Reimu, see what I mean?

>>8614806
Fuck yes! Medicine Melancholy!

-Even the strongest youkai is weak to poison.

>>8615181
It was danmaku, therefore it doesn't count as actual power. Also that tie wasn't based on power, Yorihime bashed Reimu into the ground and then she tried a strategy to make her surrender, it failed when Yorihime locked Reimu.

Anyone could beat Reimu, and everyone else, in danmaku.

>>8615190

That.
In Touhou, Tsukiyomi is apparently not a genuine god and not at any time considered such, but "merely" a godlike immortal human. So while there's a strong indication that Eirin was Omohikane in her youth, there is nothing that even hints of her being divine. She's simply a very exceptional human, from a small selection of already very exceptional humans.

>>8615167
He was believed to be a saint in life, and as you mentioned, a descendant of Gods. I don't know much about him in detail either, but as far as I've understood it by reading Touhou wiki and a few other sources, (some non-touhou) there is a lot of doubt about his deeds, and even his existence. There is even a book called "Shoutoku Taishi ha Inakatta", "Shoutoku Taishi never Existed" or something of the like.

Which is why, probably, he was an obvious choice for ZUN, considering the theme of Gensoukyou.

As for Miko's power-level though, I feel like we don't know enough about her yet. She's probably high, but I would hesitate to place her in 2nd tier like the list posted.

>>8615208
>The existence of the Hakurei maiden is what keeps the Great Border up, and her death would result in Gensokyo's collapse

Yukari is keeping the border up, Reimu is just a part of the system.

>Furthermore, if youkai killed humans to a large extent, the youkai themselves would cease to exist

Nope. Nothing ever even suggested anything like that.

>>8615189
the statement is double edged. you can read it as "it's pointless to argue" and as "no match" that is sadly a translation issue, you cannot rule that neither is incorrect and therefore we must admit the posibility that it may be about her lectures, and you gotta admit it is possible to look at it as a power level measure.

the one thing I must keep pressing is that she IS the Highest Judge of Paradise and she was granted powers and artifacts to rule and enforce her ruling. The mirror to see your deeds (a skill that indeed takes upon the yama) and a hammer to enforce.

>>8615147
Besides what the other anon said about Eirin not being a god, Yukari made Eirin shit her pants at the end of CiLR if I'm not mistaken.

Sure she may not have as much _power_ as the lunarians, but Yukari still has boundary manipulation, that's a scary god-like ability, omniscent god one at that, not the mere fire/crops/wealth/luck etc. japanese gods.

About Yuuka. I'd like to say that she actually received the "Ultimate Magic" in TH5. She stole it from Alice after the EX stage. In other words, the "Ultimate Magic" is what is contained in the Grimoire of Alice. On the other hand, Alice was Stage 3 without this magic and EX with it, and Yuuka beat EX!Alice without having taken the magic from her yet. Therefore, Yuuka + Ultimate Magic should at least imply that Yuuka is very powerful.

There's also this from her TH5 profile:
"One of the strongest youkai living around Hakurei Shrine"
Which doesn't necessarily include any youkai living away from the Hakurei Shrine in its calculations, but well... It's worthy of note.

Do I think Yuuka is the strongest? No. Do I think she's incredibly strong? Yes.

>>8615153

Hm... Yes, Yukari/Yuyuko/Reimu can be defeated in a real fight, it is not impossible. And for the record, they can also die permanently, which is totally different from normal "Death." Permanent death means you can't reincarnate, and you can't be revived, because you no longer exist. Your soul has been extinguished. One noteworthy method of doing this, is to drown someone in the Sanzu River (from what I remember).

However, this doesn't necessarily mean that Eiki is more powerful than them. The Mirror was a valid argument, but that's only if she gets the chance to reflect them in the Mirror. Because she has to do that in order to use it against them. Yukari in particular, with her power over boundaries, should be able to keep that from happening by creating the necessary boundary between them and the Mirror. Therefore, even in a 1v1 fight, Eiki is not necessarily more powerful.

>>8614976

This chart may be right if it measures their power output rather than their chances of wining a 1v1 duel.

Also to come with a proper answer you need to know the nature of their powers, its exploitability and the total output regarding what can they do and how restricted is it by stamina/rules/etcetera. But sadly it all can be fuck'd up by the situation or just the luck.

>>8615225
>Nope. Nothing ever even suggested anything like that.
Not the guy you're arguing with but I am 98% sure this is wrong. It has been implied in official texts that youkai and humans live in peace because they rely on each other's existence. However, I cannot be bothered to find it.

>>8615225
Nope, Yukari is the one who raised the border alongside the first Hakurei shrine maiden, she's just the director who checks in on the state of the barrier, Reimu is the manager and the barrier depends on her life. Should the hakurei shrine maiden die without a heir, the barrier will collapse and everything and everyone in Gensokyo will cease to exist.

>Nope. Nothing ever even suggested anything like that.

Read some PMiSS, this applies for the above paragraph as well, I think it's the ''youkai'' and ''Hakurei Reimu'' articles.

>>8615190
>Nowhere does it say Eirin is a goddess, she's just an alien, a really old one at that.
While she isn't directly stated to be any of these, and likely never will be, there's really heavy implication that she is incredibly important and is some of these legendary characters such as Omoikane. In the same way she is implied to be the acquaintance of a god and is likely godly herself. However, nothing is really proved nor can it be.
>Age does not qualify for status or power anyway, but it does for knowledge.
If she was an originator of the Lunarians, then yes, she is probably unimaginably powerful.

>Also if she was the strongest, she wouldn't have to fear about getting caught by the lunarians after her escape or not going all out against Reimu and Yukari.
Nonono, her simply being incredibly strong doesn't mean she has reason to avoid Lunarian emissaries or reason to go easy on the heroines (which considering the spell card rules is pretty void anyways). Eirin's story is pretty , but it is a bit vague. You do need to do a lot of extrapolation and guessing to fit pieces together. I agree that it isn't good argument for a powerlevels discussion, but powerlevel discussions with Touhou are fucking stupid ethereal guessing games anyways.

>>8615229
Adding onto that, ZUN has commented that Yuuka's abilities are "possibly the strongest." This is before she gained the ultimate magic, I might add.

>>8615220
Her power is based on mythology more than anything else, she's still a human, but with a saint position.

>>8615229
I don't think Eiki needs to 'place' the reflection upon yukari for it to work. and heck, reflecting reimu would be a whole lot more effective as summoning gods would likelly be more useful.

with that said I think it would be more of a 3 vs 2 scenario cause' lazy and all Komachi would help the Yama... and her skill may to a lesser extend counter some of yukari's boundaries.

>>8615241
I retract myself, you NEED to reflect the person for it to work.

>>8615229
You know where the ultimate magic thing came from? Seihou, a non-canon game which ZUN took part in, he added Yuuka in one of the games (Kioh Gyoku?) as a playable character and in her ending she gains the ''ultimate magic'', that's it. Nothing in Touhou suggests anything like this.

>>8615238
Where did you get that from? All he has commented from her in a touhou game is that her powers are moe.

>>8615232
Yuuka is D-group, alongside the likes of Reisen and Udonge.

Shit chart. It's shit.

>>8615234

But it's that way because it's comfortable for both parties. Not because it's necessary for survival.

It was stated many times that youkai could simply remove the barrier and start terrorizing people again to keep their existence safe, but they don't do this since they are content with their current way of life.

>>8615232
Why do all these charts feel so incredibly biased and messed up? Why are Reisen and Sakuya in the same tier as Ran? And why are Satori and Koishi in the same tier when Koishi is canonically stronger than her sister? And why is Futo so high?

Well, at least the lower tier aren't as messed up, but Cirno above Nazrin and Letty makes me mad. She's very strong for a fairy, but come on.

>>8615229
>should be able to keep that from happening by creating the necessary boundary between them and the Mirror. Therefore, even in a 1v1 fight, Eiki is not necessarily more powerful.

This is where you get the concepts mixed up.

Concept-based abilities have a limit as we've seen, otherwise we could claim that Yukari could best anyone by just undoing the boundary of their power, we already know this is not true, such limit is the basis for the power levels and the reason of her fear of the watatsukis and her claim that she is no match for Eiki.

All we can do is assume her ''power'' is not enough to affect Eiki.

>>8615232
Princess Lazy and Eirin?
bullshit, the yama could impart her judgement onto people who cannot die anyway. Yukari could reduce the boundary between life and death for them. heck. KOMACHI could kill them by making them fall onto the sanzu river.

>>8615256
Where does it say that?

We do know that Reimu dying would mean the end of existence for Gensokyo and its inhabitants according to Akyuu, and this isn't a fact she dawdles on, she says that the hakurei mikos have Gensokyo on the palm of their hands.

The strongest by far is Rinnosuke

>>8615220

Maybe it's just saber rattling, but apparently she's considered enough of a threat that the dark gods of the forest saw it fit to call in an expert to deal with her. An expert who apparently is a worthy match for Ran in her prime.

>>8615232
... Shinki below Erin?... the Goddess of Makkai, a Goddess of Creation and death... below a woman who simply cannot die (she can be killed by certain methods) and makes medicine?

... that is fucked up.

>>8615232

So fucking stupid.

Aya is just a tier below Suika? When Suika alone can conquer and enslave whole tengu society?

Remilia above Flan when it was stated countless times that Flan is much more powerful?

Tenshi in D? Is that a joke? She beat the shit out of half of Gensokyo. Reimu and Yuyuko included. Without rest.

And that's not even 1/10 of what's wrong with this list.

>>8615256
>It was stated many times that youkai could simply remove the barrier and start terrorizing people again to keep their existence safe
>It was stated many times

Do you have any sources to back this up? Just curious.

>>8615256
false.
the only youkai who can move things through alternative ways is Yukari. She basicly is in charge of keeping the youkai population in order by feeding them humans from the other world... before the shrine maiden send them back or accept living in the human village.

>>8615190
>>8615219

First of all, I already proved that Eirin is not human. And that is because this was a time when life was first originating from the seas and moving to land. In short, they were reptiles and fishes and shits like that. Humans didn't exist back then. So forget about humans.

Also, we have one reason to believe that Tsukuyomi is a god (because he is one in mythology), and yet, we have no reason at all to believe that he isn't one. That means that we have the implication that he is one. Does this mean he is? No. But we have reason to believe that this is the case.

Furthermore, I'm pretty sure the "aliens" in question are the Amatsukami, which are deities that originated in Takamagahara, and not on Earth. In other words, gods. And I do have reason to believe this, because both Tsukuyomi and Omoikane are, according to myths, Amatsukami.

>>8615208
>Furthermore, if youkai killed humans to a large extent, the youkai themselves would cease to exist

Presentation of evidence: the youkai sealed away underground. There are no humans down there, and yet, they have survived for over a century at the very least. Not only that, there are a number of them that are quite powerful, so we can't even conclude that they've diminished in strength.

>>8615284
wasn't that just the vampires

Haven't you noticed that Seiga is in the same tier as Sanae/Marisa? I already knew that the chart was retarded but your response is way to exaggerated.

Take it easy, is not like this shit matters.

>>8615272
A status does not equal to power level, it only means that such being has the power of creation.

Also, that goddess was beaten by a PC-98 (i.e: not as hax) Reimu in a non-spellcard duel, in other words, they didn't restrain anything.

Though, not like you can compare any PC-98 characters, not enough info.

>>8615268
>>8615278

>Because of the youkai's civilization of magic, the youkai grew to be powerful enough to freely open even the Great Barrier sealing Gensokyo. However, the youkai do not attempt to open it. On the contrary, they actually reinforced the barrier with an even stronger power.

By ZUN.

>From my perspective, the power of today's youkai has not weakened; on the contrary, it's too much for the small area that is Gensokyo.

By Akyu.

There is much more out there, but I'm not going to go digging it now.

>>8615284

Nope.

Countless characters crossed the border on their own.

>>8615236
>>8615288
>First of all, I already proved that Eirin is not human. And that is because this was a time when life was first originating from the seas and moving to land. In short, they were reptiles and fishes and shits like that. Humans didn't exist back then. So forget about humans.

Age still does not matter, the elder of the village isn't called the most powerful because he's old or because he's one of the first of the species.

>Also, we have one reason to believe that Tsukuyomi is a god (because he is one in mythology), and yet, we have no reason at all to believe that he isn't one.
They are not gods because Reimu has the ability to trance into the realm of the gods and call any of them and have a casual chatter with them, also summon their power. What's so hard about believeing they're just aliens? Again, not like Eirin would have to fear about getting caught, and she DOES express fear in the books.

>Presentation of evidence:

You've understood it wrongly, the source that says that youkai base their existence on humans (Akyuu) shows that it's not fighting, it's mere faith-based-existence, people still believe in the underground youkai since they were the ones who sealed them in, not like they wouldn't exist anyhow since it's just a matter of ''dem filthy youkais are somewhere up to no good'' thinking by the villagers, kind of like gods. And this is still going today, notice how Mamizou can still leave Gensokyo and survive since there are still shrines dedicated to the tanukis.

>>8615291
Quite a few things missing from that chart.

>>8615299
Well, this still does not counter the fact that youkai and everything inside Gensokyo would cease to exist should the barrier collapsed, the very person who states that some youkai can open the barrier is the one who states the above.

>>8615291
fanon chart?

>>8615319
The blue is fanon.

>>8615288

I was under the impression that the Lunar Capital was only founded slightly over 2000 years ago.

>>8615315
All the relationship charts I know of are a few years old. I'd like a new one sometime soon...

>>8615319
No, I firmly believe it's Zun himself who makes these, I mean, who else could have enough knowledge about Gensokyo and the girls to bring those pieces of analytical art?

>>8615317

If you actually read whole PMiSS you would know that Akyu was wondering why won't they simply invade the outside world and make people fear them again.

And ZUN stated many times that they can survive in the outside world. At least strong ones can. Barrier is in place to protect the weak ones, and allows powerful ones to live lazy lives.

Read prologue to PCB for example.

>>8615331
Forgot image, damn captcha.

>>8615299
Both are talking about the incredibly powerful youkai that hold Gensokyo together, such as Yukari. Sure they can open the barrier, but it's much better for everyone that youkai do not often leave Gensokyo. Hence, they fortify it. It's deeper than that but that's the basic premise.

>>8615337
>Chiyuri
>humanoid youkai
have I missed something

>>8615344
The chart isn't depurated, there's several error both grammatical and in the analysis itself, Kourin is unknown as example.

>>8615228
>Yukari made Eirin shit her pants at the end of CiLR if I'm not mistaken.

This has no place in a discussion of power levels. After all, the only thing Yukari did was have Yuyuko steal some special Moon sake and then let Eirin drink some. It surprised Eirin. Nothing more.

>>8615249

Excuse me, I do believe that the same article said that Yuuka's "Manipulation of Flowers" is not even something she bothers to use in a fight. However, it IS possible to use that ability effectively in a fight. Just look at Chado's "Yuka VS Yukari" for an example.

Not only that, but we know that she has other abilities. Example: the aforementioned magic which she has been learning and seems to have already acquired a lot of.

>>8615272
We don't really know anything about Shinki's powers. On the other hand, for Eirin, please look at >>8615147. I do understand that Shinki could be amazingly powerful, and I do personally believe that she is. However, we have no idea how powerful she really is.

>>8615351
jpeg_file_strongest.jpg

>>8615314
Yes, age does not necessarily imply anything. However, she has lived for millions of years, most likely (at the very least, she's definitely thousands of years old) and that does imply that she has a great deal of experience, not to mention her vast intelligence and knowledge which surpasses that of any other Lunarian.

>They are not gods because Reimu has the ability to trance into the realm of the gods and call any of them and have a casual chatter with them, also summon their power.
How does this even begin to imply that they are not gods? It looks completely irrelevant to me.

>What's so hard about believeing they're just aliens?
Because we have mythological evidence which ZUN made references to, which implies that they are Amatsukami.

>Again, not like Eirin would have to fear about getting caught, and she DOES express fear in the books.
While I believe she is incredibly powerful, even I can see that she is not the only Lunarian. There should be many more of them, and they all have extremely advanced technology and magic, and due to how important she is to the Lunarian civilization, she is very much wanted back. In fact, they didn't care nearly as much about Kaguya as they did Eirin.

>>8615351
>Seihou
>canon
LOL WUT

>>8615346

Mamizou lived in the outside world. Youkai can survive in the outside world with no problems.

Fairies and things like them would probably disappear without the barrier though. Or rather had to move into deepest wilds to survive.

>>8615346

The whole point of the barrier is to recreate the good old times in Gensokyo.

It's not a matter of life and death.

>>8615386
They would eventually die out, most likely.

If Maribel's timeline is any indication, youkai aren't going to be getting any more prevalent in the outside world than they already are. In fact, the opposite is probably what will happen.

And that's why Gensokyo was created. It's a place of refuge.

>>8615291

>pet
>not friend

I can't take it easy

EX-Alice = Shinki = Shikieiki >Ultimate Magic Yuka > Reimu > Moonsisters > ... > Yukari.

I like how people put Flan always above Remi when that is not necesarilly true.

Flandre is a way out of control bomb, Remilia is pinpoint directed nappalm. Remi managed (with great effort) to keep her under control and manipulated things around her so 'other people' could calm Flan out so she could... stay around in koumakan.

Heck, remi is only limited by her love of her sister. I dare to say she's quite a few times more dangerous.

Of course extra stage characters tend to appear more powerfull than stage 6 bosses, but that is not always the case. (Ran...)

>>8615211
>>8615227

Are you guys seriously going to keep this shit up?

You've completely butchered Yukari's statement. Yes, normally it COULD mean either, but in this case, the context restricts it severely, so it's almost impossible to even theorize that it could be talking about Eiki's actual power level.

If you're going to keep insisting that it's referring to her real power level, then explain to me why Yukari was afraid of engaging in a real fight with the Yama in this situation.

There's dozens of reasons why a real fight would NEVER happen in this situation, so you better get started working around each and every one of them.

>>8615455
Yukari picks her fights, she fooled the moonsillies because she knew she couldn't win. I say it's a simmilar situation. She won't put a foot on a battleground whe KNOWS she cannot win.

if Yukari fails to do her work in the world, she will be judged... and guess by who?

>>8615461
>Yukari picks her fights, she fooled the moonsillies because she knew she couldn't win. I say it's a simmilar situation. She won't put a foot on a battleground whe KNOWS she cannot win.
>if Yukari fails to do her work in the world, she will be judged... and guess by who?
Dude, you're almost there. Almost. You're burning hot. The only thing you're mistaken about is the reasoning that she leaves explicitly because the Yama is stronger and might beat her in a fight.

The thing is, Yukari doesn't give a fuck how strong the opponent is. You're absolutely right though, she avoids situations that won't likely end in her favor. But this isn't a case of battle.

>>8615483
Adding on to that,
1) Why the hell would anyone even think engaging the Yama in an actual honest fight is a good idea? Further, why would anyone think fighting anyone else in Gensokyo, in an actual fight, be a good idea?
2) Why the hell would anyone think arguing with the Yama is a good idea? Besides, the Yama nags everyone and is generally annoying.
3) The Yama judges you when you die. It will happen, and bitch you're going to get judged. Nobody wants to anger that sort of influence.

>>8615461

You're missing the point. Why are you still missing the point? You haven't even BEGUN to address the issue.

Listen, okay? You keep insisting that a serious fight to the death is going to happen if they meet up here, but you can't explain why such a fight is going to happen.

And I have already given you a whole bunch of reasons why it is NOT going to happen. But you continually ignore every single one of these reasons, even though I'm only presenting canon evidence. Answer all of these questions before you continue your ridiculous arguments.

1. Eiki only lectures the living, and uses spell card duels to get her point across. Nothing more. Why would she suddenly decide to kill them?
2. The Yama are *not* supposed to meddle with the affairs of the living anyway. Eiki has never done this in the past, and has actually displayed quite a lot of reluctance to start doing it. Why would she change now?
3. Yuyuko is her subordinate, who won't be judged anyway. Why in the world would she try to erase Yuyuko? Merely for slacking off in her duties and going to see her friends in Gensokyo? I can't begin to tell you how absurd that would be. She has never displayed this kind of irrationality in the past. On the contrary, she's a very rational person. Why would she change now?
4. Gensokyo is within her jurisdiction as a judge of its dead. She at least respects it as being a world of its own. Why would she kill Reimu and Yukari, thereby erasing its existence?

>>8615439
>Heck, remi is only limited by her love of her sister. I dare to say she's quite a few times more dangerous.
I think it's the contrary.

Also, the fanon bullshit you said makes no sense.

>>8615503
PIG DISGUSTING

>>8615547
>completely ignores plain canon-based logic
>instead insults them

Are you a filthy secondary or something?

>>8615503
>It will happen, and bitch you're going to get judged.

Explain to me why it's impossible for me to achieve immortality or reach nirvana or remove myself from existence or just beat the shit out of the shinigami.

>>8615537
Hmm. I think I both agree and disagree with both of you.

Flandre is kept under control through Remilia's influence. Remilia's influence also has created a situation where she depends on Remilia, loves her, respects her and importantly, obeys her. Her destructive powers are basically why she's mostly kept inside the mansion to begin with, and her childlike glee and abandon don't help. Hence, Remilia keeps her under control and you won't often have Flandre's powers really shown that much. Blowing up the meteor was a good enough show of ability.

However, Remi is also hindered by this relationship, since she really doesn't get a chance to really "showcase" her powers per se. Seeing as it's Flandre's ability than has to be kept in check, Flandre's raw power output is probably greater than Remilia's. However, her ability is implicitly thought of as incredibly powerful, possibly more "powerful" than Flan's ability, because of the massive influence she has. Much of the mansion's inner workings are probably surveyed and brought into motion by her power, including Flandre, of course. I would call fate manipulation a very passive power, so you probably won't ever see it be utilized in say, a battle, but it's probably much more powerful than most people figure.

>>8615562
Well, I will give you that; humans can avoid (judgment of) "death" by becoming Hermits and beating up the Shinigami. Buddhists may reach Nirvana someday and transcend the plane of life. And so on. However, this isn't the case with 99% of Gensokyo's population, and besides, you're clearly avoiding the point lol.

>XD YUUKA IS STRONGEST TOUHOU

Saying this has as much weight as saying Cirno's the strongest. Ultimate magic, even if it were canon, hardly means shit.

Yuuka fans are one of the worst.

>>8615562
It's a joke.

Also trying to understand Yukari is where most of you fail, she's said to be a genius intellect of some sort above humans, that means you can't understand her because "NO YOU CAN'T, NO FURTHER DISCUSSION" call it plot armor if you want but imo this is her stronger point rather than the gaps who lots of people happen to overestimate, she needs a lot time to summon a damn train is not like she can use it with free will to release a destructive power to compete with MoonSis™ fan and teleportable army.

For Eiki, I expect her to be the strongest because she happens to be a good oh high rank and that is enough for me, I also expect her to save some kind of hidden pew-pew bullshit above everything else.

The strongest is Raymoo, ZUN confirmed it.

>Koishi
>Tier 5

Uhh, what? Does the maker of this list not know how dangerous manipulating the subconscious is?

Bi-weekly Touhou powerlevel thread, yet again. By tomorrow this thread is going to be populated by 2 autists who are going to keep arguing over stupid shit.

ZUN purposely made everybody's powers pretty ambiguous in terms of powerlevel, because unlike NASUverse, Gensokyo isn't a wankfest. I'd say that SSiB pretty much closed the book on the whole powerlevel discussion.

Anything else is purely academic.

>>8615587
Are you really denying that she is one of the stronger Youkai? Do the dozen hints in canon alluding to her being very powerful just not cut it for you?

This arguing has gotten so stupid.

I declare the winner,

EX Cirno! The power of absolute zero, the ability to stop all molecular action, the power, OF ENTROPY ITSELF!

>>8615642

An ex Cirno would be THE shark dive of the Touhou franchise.

>>8615600
Even that's better reasoning than the chucklefucks who are basing everything on one misinterpreted line and then arguing it for hours.

Again, this is the retarded thing that comes with powerlevel discussion. This is Touhou. You can't fucking do it. There are no clear lines, only a bunch of information that people interpret and attempt to rank, while this ambiguity is why people feel like they have to extrapolate on single lines and argue across webs. Gensokyo's universe basically disregards any attempt at power ranking anyways, and people still somehow think this is a good idea.

>157 posts and 30 image replies omitted

>>8615636
No, retard. I know she's strong. I'm saying she's not the strongest touhou character or anything close to that like many people like to say or imply.

>>8615576
Let's tie together everything we know now.

>You can avoid judgment by separating yourself from the cycle of death and rebirth (in other words, the border of life and death).
>You can do this by achieving immortality. In fact, that's what immortality is in Touhou. It's when you're in a state neither alive nor dead, and therefore, neither can affect you.
>Yukari can manipulate the boundary between life and death and has been shown to do this in a spell card.
What's stopping her from simply making herself immortal?

In fact, it's probable that Reimu is the only one of those 3 that will face judgment.

>>8615600
You can understand a few things about her. For example, the fact that she's so intelligent means that, to her of all people, it should be perfectly obvious that Eiki is not coming to try and kill them. That would be so ridiculous it's not even funny.

>>8615604
Oh really? Then explain what happened in Tenshi's storyline in SWR, and what happened on the Moon in SSiB. I'll be waiting, faggot.

>>8615675
She didn't feel like it.

>>8615648
Let's not stoop to childish insults. Show me several other Touhous that have nearly as much canon hints alluding to their power as Yuuka. Until then, Yuuka is canonically one of the strongest.

>>8615681
You mean she didn't feel like beating the obnoxious celestial that she had already expressed interest in beating up? Explain.

>>8615642
Ex Rumia > Ex Cirno

>>8614976
>>8615232
>Flandre in 3rd tier, not 1st

Lolwut? The only ones that could really hold a candle to her broken ability are Yukari and the immortals. Also Reimu if you go by the border collapse theory.

>>8615644
You're just afraid. Afraid of the ultimate being breaking free from her 2d prison to reign in terror over all humanity.

Given that Cirno was able to stand toe-to-toe with Marisa in 12.8's Extra, wouldn't they be at or near the same powerlevel?

>>8615697
>implying that Flan has good enough control over her abilities and sanity to not explode Reimu anyway

Yeah. And in PMiSS, vampires are stated to be as fast as a Tengu and very strong both magically and physically. This is added to Flan's broken-ass ability.

In short, I agree with you.

>>8615714

>>8615712
Marisa was using weak lasers. This is obvious because she explicitly stated she was going to, and then in the actual fight, her lasers looked like flashlights.

Cirno is certainly higher than Stage 2 by now though, at any rate.

>>8615716
>>8615718
She also states, after being defeated, that she needs to rest after Cirno badly injured her. Notice I said that Cirno could fight her on equal or near-equal terms, not that she "beat" her.

Also, it probably doesn't apply to canon, but her spells would all still be possible even if the lasers were instant kills.

>>8615735
I would put Cirno at anywhere from Stage 4 to EX. But that's just speculation.

>>8615735
>She also states, after being defeated, that she needs to rest after Cirno badly injured her.
That's a loaded statement, she was never badly injured. She was sore after the fight because Cirno put up more of a challenge than she expected and she wasn't careful enough. GFW's danmaku is also entirely exaggerated in regards to canon because it's viewed from Cirno's perspective. Marisa went pretty easy on her, and ZUN wanted to make note of that.

>Also, it probably doesn't apply to canon, but her spells would all still be possible even if the lasers were instant kills.
did you even play gfw extra lol

>>8616040

>because it's viewed from Cirno's perspective

So THAT'S why Marisa is so fucking big in GFW...

Could Utsuho create a true sun?

>>8616402
Obviously, she manipulates the very essencial process that keeps stars functioning.

She also uses such powers to manage her own reactor all by herself.

>>8616402
That'd require a lot of material and constant maintenance to keep running for any length of time.

Unless she happens to have enough material to make it massive enough to be self-sustaining.

>>8615455
>>8615507
It appears to me you're the one missing the point.

You see, even with danmaku rules and various other customs in place, might still makes right in Gensokyo. You don't see lesser beings boasting in the faces of the stronger ones "you can't hurt me, danmaku rules, ha ha ha ha". No, you see them cower and flee in fear, because they actually can hurt them all the same. The customs are there just so that they don't hurt each other all too much.

Now, Eiki wouldn't want to kill anyone, obviously. She could, however, decide that they've been bad and need a few slaps on the butt with the rod of remorse - and what is Yukari supposed to do then? Defend herself all out and risk collateral damage to her beloved Gensokyo AND more punishment to herself in the process? Certainly not.

You're right that the fight is not going to happen, you just fail to understand the reasons for that. If you've ever been in any kind of conflict in real life, you know they barely ever enter the "fight to death" phase. The sides know, or quickly realize, who's stronger, and refrain from hurting each other (and themselves) any more than necessary. If a bully wants to take your lollipop, he doesn't have to kill you, and you're not fighting him to death either, you're just giving him your lollipop, end of story. If Eiki wants to spank Yukari's ass, Yukari bends down and pulls down her bloomers, as long as she knows any other action will result in more punishment. That's just the way it is.

Was that sufficiently clear?

Now, I'm not even saying people claiming Eiki's stronger than Yukari are necessarily right. I'm just pointing out they make a valid argument. You do not.

>>8617148
Nice going there, ignoring the whole point of the argument. I'm tired so I won't type much, here's the thing.

We're not talking about what WOULD or SHOULD happen, obviously Eiki isn't gonna kill random people.

We're talking about POSSIBILITIES, mere power levels, you're trying to deny that by saying ''it wouldn't happen because that's just not her personality, man''.

Oh and, you quoted someone who merely said that your understanding of his post was wrong and hence your counter-argument also was, you also haven't refuted his argument and you're just insulting and getting the wrong points yet again.

>>8617148
This is power levels dude, checking who's more powerful than who, there's no need for a fight, only text, Yukari's words that she's no match for Eiki are sufficient.

>>8617171
...please read the post you're replying to next time. That was just sad. Or was your point precisely to discourage me from posting by demonstrating that whatever I say will fall on deaf ears anyway? It's kind of working.

>>8617205
Look, the only argument here was simply deducting Yukari's words, by normally reading them one can assume that Yukari is claiming that she is weaker than Eiki, unfortunately you seem to have some sort of extreme denial in your mind and ignoring things that any sane person would notice and accept, could be character preference but I'm not sure.

Eventually you dragged the whole thing into a mere situational issue, seeing as how you could not counter the opposing argument, you also dropped your own argument in face of the ''proper translation'' of Yukari's phrase that led to your thinking that it wasn't power level related. After being refuted, you then just catered to insults and changing your point thinking you could get away.

It's simple, you have yet to refute a point at all.

>>8617198
>there's no need for a fight

That's, like, you know... precisely what I said?

Okay, since what I'm writing is incomprehensible for so many people, it's time for me to go back to English class, apparently.

official power level rankings

1. shiki
2. yukari
3. raymoo
4. the rest

>>8617209
>by normally reading them one can assume that Yukari is claiming that she is weaker than Eiki

And I called that a valid argument and have been arguing for it for the entire time. Which you would know if you read my post. GOD DAMN. Am I really being that incomprehensible?

>>8617212
>4. okuu
>5. the other crappy touhous

fixed that for ye.

>>8617209
Just for the record, by "for the entire time" I meant "for the entire span of my post", which was my very first in this thread. It occured to me that you somehow decided I'm the guy who posted >>8615455 and >>8615507 (among others), although how you could miss the fact that I'm actually replying to him is beyond me.

>>8615507 here.

Guys, I understand that it's a possibility that if they encountered Eiki, there would be some serious threat from her that Yukari would be expecting. Maybe Yukari committed some kind of horrible sin and so, if Eiki uses the mirror on her, she'll find out about it. Or whatever. I had long since come up with that theory on my own, so I'm obviously not trying to say that this is impossible.

What I'm trying to say is that, because your interpretation of Yukari's statement (that she is admitting Eiki is stronger than herself/Reimu/Yuyuko combined) is exceedingly unlikely, you cannot use it to prove that Eiki is the strongest, or even close. If you throw this farfetched theory of yours around, you cannot expect anyone to suddenly admit that Eiki is the strongest, unless they're willing to simply take your word for it.

And that, my friends, is why it has no place in a discussion of power levels. It seems that we have had a monumental amount of trouble just understanding each other, so I hope that this makes things clear.

Kind of surprised that thus far, Suika is barely mentioned and Yuugi isn't mentioned at all.

Instead, there's been all this metaphysical talk.

>>8618141
>exceedingly unlikely

No, it's a direct, literal, and the most likely one. You're free to reject it if you wish, but you can't expect others to do the same.

>>8618231

Right. It's what you'd get if you take it at face value.

Are you seriously going to tell me that all attempts at taking context into consideration and making logical interpretations of it, are just a bunch of fanon bullshit?

I'm not the one throwing weird theories around. You are. You're trying to convince me that Eiki is the strongest by presenting SPECULATION and nothing more.

It is possible that she meant it straightforwardly. Does that mean she did? Lol no. When does Yukari ever mean things straightforwardly?

You continually ignore every single argument I present. Every single one. And your only response is "we have to take everything at face value no matter how unlikely it is that it really means that" or something to that effect.

You're acting like ZUN himself said this, when it was only Yukari. Get over yourself. Do you accept everything Akyuu says in PMiSS at face value? You don't, right? Good job, you've now realized that you're applying your own interpretations to Touhou too.

Because hey, newsflash: characters can speak in metaphors, they can lie, and their words can be translated in ways that makes people like you assume weird things. In fact, we have every reason to believe that Yukari was saying something to the effect of "it's pointless to argue" which is equally as valid as your interpreation, if not far moreso due to the context.

>>8618224

Suika, if I remember right, has been stated somewhere to be as powerful as Yukari is. I'm not sure about that though, so don't quote me on it.

But regardless, I do consider her to be one of the strongest beings in Gensokyo. Likewise for Yuugi, who could very well be Suika's equal. And the same for Kasen, who is probably yet another of the Devas.

>>8618324
>has been stated somewhere to be as powerful as Yukari is

Oh you silly person.

>>8618300
Assuming your points are somehow valid, what makes YOUR speculation better than our ''speculation''?

You aren't using ANY base at all, just your own presumptious thoughts, throwing darts at options seeing which one could deny that quote meaning anything, we are using that quote as a base, yet you refute it saying it's mere fanwank and I better stop here because your hypocrisy is really touching a nerve.

Context is what matters here, obviously what Yukari was referring to was power, while Yukari does often joke around, those times are inmediately identifiable, this one has no reason to be, you're catering to your own made up theories and thinking of them as fact.

But it doesn't matter apparently, you're one of those extremely arrogant people who will never accept things no matter how hard it's pushed into their faces.

>>8618300
>You continually ignore every single argument I present.

Did you read my post at >>8617148? Because I'd like someone to finally read it, I wasted quite a bit of time writing it.

Long story short: your arguments so far have been fallacious, relying on unwarranted assumptions and false dichotomies. They just aren't convincing at all.

And yes, it's all speculation, quite obviously. But direct admission of inferiority is one of the best indications we're going to get, second maybe only to long-term pecking order. Way better than comparing vaguely defined abilities. Way better than results of bullet-evading games played largely for fun.

Once again: you're free to refuse it, if you want. Just don't try to pretend it doesn't matter. Unless you're willing to admit that nothing matters and all Touhous are potentially equal in power... which is fine by me by the way.

>>8618324
I don't know about comparisons to Yukari, but Suika has been stated to be the strongest physically. Which, obviously, does not necessarily imply the biggest overall power.

>>8618343
I said don't quote me on it.

>>8618354
How many times have I tried throwing perfectly obvious canon evidence at you in order to prove just how unlikely it is that your interpretation is correct? And not only do you ignore all of it, but you say that I have no base?

I do understand that being threatened =/= a serious fight because if you know they're going to win, you'll try and avoid the fight. However, there's no reason to even expect that there is a threat in the first place, aside from a lecture.

I mean really. This is a joke, right?

I am not forcing any interpretation of mine on you. I am saying that at best, our interpretations are equally likely. At best.

If someone had translated it as "it's pointless to argue," you would probably take that at face value and completely ignore anything else. That's basically what you're doing now, except that it's been translated "no match for" instead.

This thread has been places but still gone nowhere.

>>8618457
>it's been translated "no match for"

It literally means something like "can't oppose", "can't go against". "No match for" is a good phrasing preserving the nuance and most of the meaning. "Pointless to argue with" is not, it assumes too much about the context. If someone translated it that way, it would probably need to be changed to the former one.

>>8618410
Please do explain why it's all unwarranted assumptions and false dichotomies.

Really, because we keep going in circles. I kept giving reasons why there is no serious threat, and then you guys kept saying that there is one because of Yukari's statement itself. And then I try and point out that this statement, which doesn't necessarily mean that at all, is the only evidence you have that there could be a threat. And then you point at the statement again and say that the meaning is straightforward.

And that just pisses me off because I've already explained that we actually do have reason to believe that there is no threat at all, which has not been refuted in any way, shape, or form.

Your theory is based upon one possible meaning of the Japanese text. Mine is also based upon one possible meaning. That makes both equally likely, right? But then I threw context into the picture, explaining that as a rule Eiki doesn't meddle with the affairs of the living, among a bunch of other things. That should make your theory the less likely one. Why does it not? You never explained this.

I did read your post at >>8617148. Your point was very valid, IF we can assume that Eiki is stronger than them. That's the problem. We actually have no reason to believe that, other than one possible interpretation of Yukari's statement.

And even if there was, Yukari, Yuyuko, and Reimu, of all people, sure don't seem like the type to care about threats of power. Yukari in particular, has never shown respect for someone more powerful than her, aside from an act she put up in SSiB. In fact, a whole bunch of people in Gensokyo really don't give a shit about that. Marisa is another one. Similarly for Yuuka, and Tenshi. Suika too. Really, it seems like the strong ones just don't care, and Yukari/Yuyuko/Reimu definitely qualify as being part of that group.

>>8618489
Since I don't know Japanese, I can only take your word for it. However, I really don't think it's that big of an assumption when you take into account the fact Eiki lectures everyone she runs into, and that this is why everyone avoids her. It's not because they're afraid of fighting her. And there's no way anyone would want to argue with her.

This is simply how things have always been in canon, and it's very easy to see that the meaning of Yukari's words could align with it. Why would it not? Nobody can explain this.

Reimu. Stop bumping this shit thread.

>>8618141
>>8618231
>>8618300
>>8618354
>>8618410
>>8618457
>>8618501
>>8618522
So, is this better or worse than that "how fat is Patchouli?" thread.

>>8618501
The point is, the seriousness of the threat does not matter at all. The sole fact that Yukari can't confront the Yama is enough for her to feel uneasy. It doesn't matter how small the potential inconvenience of meeting her would be, as long as it exists and Yukari perceives it to be unavoidable by directly opposing her. Even if there would be no confrontation of powers involved (though we know there might be, since Eiki has been danmakuing people left and right) it at least says a lot about the order of authority in Gensokyo.

>That makes both equally likely, right?

I wouldn't say equally, not even close; though obviously I can't discount the possibility that yours is a valid one. But everyone already admitted that.long ago.

>as a rule Eiki doesn't meddle with the affairs of the living

She's just been in the process of repeatedly breaking this "rule" during that time, you know.

>Yukari in particular, has never shown respect for someone more powerful than her

There are only two occasions of her having a chance to show respect for someone more powerful than her - not surprising given that she may be the sole most powerful being of Gensokyo proper. This and SSiB. She does so it in both cases. Argue the sample is small all you want - but it's still a 100% rate.

>>8618637
She doesn't need to confront the Yama. In a battle of wits, Yukari is probably #1. She simply loves to fight that way. And if actual force is not involved, then this is all that's left. She has no reason to feel uneasy about this kind of fight. On the contrary, she deliberately caught the negative attention of the Watatsukis (despite the fact that she should have felt uneasy about that, according to you guys) and used this for her own gain, allowing Yuyuko a chance to slip under the radar.

There are only two reasons for her to find the Yama's company unpleasant in this case:
1. [A battle of power is going to take place] and [the Yama is stronger] and [the Yama is willing to risk significant damage to Genoskyo] and [the Yama is willing to break her own rule not to meddle with the affairs of the living]. Note that this requires not one but at least 4 assumptions.
2. They're going to be lectured, which is highly annoying. Note that this requires 0 assumptions because it's shown to happen all the time.

>She's just been in the process of repeatedly breaking this "rule" during that time, you know.

What's the purpose of a spell card duel?
>With each fight between youkai, there is the fear of collapse of the small land of Gensokyo. However, if youkai are unable to fight, their power will gradually vanish.
There's also this:
>However, when ones with power clash, both sides are aware that they cannot come to a conclusion easily. To counter this, rules will often be decided beforehand and a formal battle will take place. By fighting with these rules, even if one could continue after losing, they must admit their loss. Once that is done, the other side will not continue further. That is the wisdom of youkai who have lived long.
Hmm, this sounds a lot like a more elegant version of janken. How does that break Eiki's rule?

>>8618739
>There are only two reasons

All I have to say about this is: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dilemma
And as I was saying, you're not helping your case with this.

>They're going to be lectured, which is highly annoying.

This, actually, requires the assumption that Yukari will be forced to listen to the lecture. Go figure.

>How does that break Eiki's rule?

You say that starting a fight (no matter how formalized) does not constitute meddling with? Seriously?

>>8618794
>All I have to say about this is
Irrelevant because you're trying to say that #1 is the truth and I'm trying to say that it's making a whole bunch of assumptions by proving that #2 is far less ridiculous. Whether these two are the only possibilities or not, doesn't matter.

>And as I was saying, you're not helping your case with this.
Occam's razor. You're picking the one that requires a whole bunch of additional assumptions.

>This, actually, requires the assumption that Yukari will be forced to listen to the lecture.
Actually, we have every reason to believe that Eiki would lecture her. Because it happens to everyone Eiki meets. On the contrary, do we have any reason to believe that she would not? The burden of proving that we don't have reason to believe this much and therefore it is an assumption, is on you.

>You say that starting a fight (no matter how formalized) does not constitute meddling with?
Eiki's official profile for TH9 (which was, of course, written by ZUN himself) describes it like this:
>All kind of flowers were blooming at the same time - spider lilies, sunflowers, lilies of the valley, lotus blossoms, and cherry blossoms. As she was digesting this, both living humans and youkai attacked her, seething with anger.
Hmm, that doesn't sound like she went and picked a fight with all of them.
>However, a human who's been charged with a crime is before her. With her pride, she couldn't let her pass through her place.
She wanted to get her point across. All of them were perfectly fine afterward (as is always the case), so she's not hurting them.

I still don't see how this is meddling in any way.

>>8618844
>you're trying to say that #1 is the truth

No, I'm not. You've been the only one who tries to present that scenario, and I've been the one who tried to explain to you why it's bogus.

I'm not linking you to a definition of strawman, everyone should know it already. What you should just realize argumentation like this is just not worth considering. You can't complain people don't take you seriously when you're discussing with something they never said.

>Actually, we have every reason to believe that Eiki would lecture her.

You missed the point by a mile. The point is not whether Eiki would lecture her. The point is whether Yukari would listen. By stating that Yukari would have to listen to the lecture (rather than telling Eiki to piss off or doing something else that would prevent it), you're already admitting Eiki has a position of authority over Yukari. It's a self-defeating argument.

>that doesn't sound like she went and picked a fight with all of them

That may not, but the game dialogue tells another story.

>she's not hurting them

That's fine, only irrelevant. We're talking about meddling here, not hurting.

>>8618899
>You've been the only one who tries to present that scenario, and I've been the one who tried to explain to you why it's bogus.

There's a reason why I've been refuting #1. And it's because there is no other option for those of you who claim that Yukari's quote refers to how powerful Eiki really is.

I've already explained why this is. Yukari does not get intimidated. And I've already provided evidence:
>On the contrary, she deliberately caught the negative attention of the Watatsukis (despite the fact that she should have felt uneasy about that, according to you guys) and used this for her own gain, allowing Yuyuko a chance to slip under the radar.

You could also claim that she's referring to the judgment she will inevitably face. Except I've already proven that she will not necessarily face this judgment by presenting several canon scenarios where a being is removed from the cycle of life and death prematurely, preventing them from being judged. Which, by the way, she stands a great chance of reaching a number of these scenarios, may have reached at least one of them already. The point is that if she wanted to avoid judgment, it would be trivial for her to do so. That means she's not referring to this. Not only that, but since Yuyuko won't face judgment regardless (and she's including Yuyuko in her statement), it couldn't be referring to this anyway.

Alright then. Now you tell me just what threat Eiki brings to the table here. And remember, you've said you won't cling to #1. Are you going to corner yourself?

>you're already admitting Eiki has a position of authority over Yukari. It's a self-defeating argument.

When did I say she was going to listen? I said the lecture would be annoying, and that Eiki was going to try and give it.

>We're talking about meddling here, not hurting.

How does this meddle with things in any significant way?

>>8618952
>there is no other option

And we're back to false dichotomy.

>what threat Eiki brings to the table

I already explained how simply assuming that Eiki is in a position of power nullifies any need for her to consider or initiate the fight. You already admitted I'm correct, too, and your only option to argue against it is that Eiki isn't, in fact, stronger. That leaves you with "Eiki isn't stronger because she isn't stronger" - a circular argument, another logical fallacy.

>When did I say she was going to listen?

It's Gensokyo, and it's Yukari. If she doesn't want to listen, she doesn't listen. If, say, Cirno tried to lecture Yukari, she'd end up with a free one-way ticket to the Giant Frog Pond on a Yakumo portal line. Can you imagine something similar happening to Eiki?

>How does this meddle with things

In quite the same way any kind of overpowering meddles with things.

>>8619053
>simply assuming that Eiki is in a position of power nullifies any need for her to consider or initiate the fight
The intimidation argument, right?
>You already admitted I'm correct, too
I don't recall saying that.
>your only option to argue against it is that Eiki isn't, in fact, stronger.
Except that your argument is entirely based on "Eiki is stronger" which you have no proof of. That's an assumption in and of itself. The only proof you have of this is Yukari's statement, which is completely inconclusive.

>If, say, Cirno tried to lecture Yukari, she'd end up with a free one-way ticket to the Giant Frog Pond on a Yakumo portal line. Can you imagine something similar happening to Eiki?
How does "not listening" imply violence? But that's beside the point. Regardless of power, and regardless of violence, and regardless of threat, Yukari doesn't have to listen if she doesn't want to. Eiki is not the kind of person to try and kill you just because you didn't listen to her. A spell card duel? That's not harmful. And that's assuming the Eiki is actually more powerful.

>In quite the same way any kind of overpowering meddles with things.
In a spell card duel, both parties involved usually have winning and/or losing conditions. Otherwise, the fight would be meaningless, since it's not actually harmful to either party (they always come out of it just fine). In other words, the only possible threat is a condition Eiki forces on the opposing party. However, we already know that when it comes to the living, she mainly just wants them to listen to her lectures, and that she uses these spell card duels to get her point across (in-game dialogue heavily supports this). So basically, her condition is "listen to me."

>>8619128
>The intimidation argument, right?

Intimidation is one of the options, yes. Just one of them. There are many others. More universal ones like mutual respect. Or more empowering ones, like simply having the ability to prevent Yukari not only from opposing her, but also from doing any collateral damage in the process.

>I don't recall saying that.

Cough, >Your point was very valid, IF we can assume that Eiki is stronger than them, cough.

>Except that your argument is entirely based on "Eiki is stronger" which you have no proof of

No, it's not. For starters, I'm not arguing "Eiki is stronger because she's stronger". I'm arguing that Yukari's statement about her being stronger is logically sound (note, it's important - I'm not saying it's necessarily true, I'm just saying you can't dismiss it). Her being stronger is consistent with it, so I can (and should) simply use it as an axiom here.

>Yukari doesn't have to listen if she doesn't want to.

Only her remark, and the choice to leave immediately, suggest that she may be assuming that leaving after they have already met each other may not be an option. Or at least not an easy one.

And, seriously, stop talking about killing and similar stuff, it's simply irrelevant. Killing is a sign of weakness, the stronger you are, the less chance there is you'll even have to resort to it, or any kind of harm or violence for that matter, to achieve your goal.

And I believe I already explained how the seriousness (or lack thereof) of the threat does not matter here, unavoidability does.

>>8619268
>More universal ones like mutual respect.
This is irrelevant because simple respect doesn't necessarily take power levels into consideration at all, and we have no reason to believe there would be mutual respect regardless.
>simply having the ability to prevent Yukari not only from opposing her, but also from doing any collateral damage in the process.
We have no reason to believe she can do anything of the sort.

>I'm arguing that Yukari's statement about her being stronger is logically sound (note, it's important - I'm not saying it's necessarily true, I'm just saying you can't dismiss it).
You're using the thing we're arguing about as part of the argument itself. And this makes no logical sense.

How is it logically sound? My argument is that, in order for Yukari to be referring to power levels, there must be some threat of power present. However, there is no serious fight. There is no intimidation. There is no fear of future judgment. You have presented no theories which are relevant to Eiki's power level and which do not make additional assumptions.

I'm sorry, but you're confusing me. I don't understand your argument at all.

>the listening thing
Irrelevant because the whole point was that I'm making an additional assumption, which I'm not.

>unavoidability does.
How so? They didn't listen to her regardless.

What are you rascals going on about for hundreds of posts? I already told you that I'm the strongest Touhou. Do you want me to appear in next game to prove it or what?

>>8619354
Another poster here.

>This is irrelevant because simple respect doesn't necessarily take power levels into consideration at all, and we have no reason to believe there would be mutual respect regardless.

This is a false assumption. Youkai respect power, however, it is possible they respect other things.

>How is it logically sound? My argument is that, in order for Yukari to be referring to power levels, there must be some threat of power present. However, there is no serious fight. There is no intimidation. There is no fear of future judgment. You have presented no theories which are relevant to Eiki's power level and which do not make additional assumptions.

Unlike the other poster, I argue that it IS a power level argument. Yukari's statement is taken into context ater several things that point to power level talk.

Yukari's statement: As I finished my explanation, I could feel the activity of a very strong presence (do note, she is saying whoever is coming has very high ki).

Yukari's next statement: The violet cherry blossoms scattered before my eyes almost as if they were frightened of something.

A few sentences later: "They must have come to watch the sinful violet cherry blossoms. We're no match for them, so we'd better leave, okay?"

Explain to me how that is NOT power level talk?

>>8620111 here

Sentence sounds wrong, should be like this:

Yukari's statement, when taken into context, is power level talk

>>8620111
>Youkai respect power, however, it is possible they respect other things.
Even if there was mutual respect, and even if it is out of respect for power, it still doesn't necessarily mean that Eiki is stronger than Yukari, let alone the strongest.

>Explain to me how that is NOT power level talk?
Because there is no reason for Yukari to feel that any threat of power that Eiki might bring would be unpleasant enough to leave right now. That is, aside from a lecture or something, but that has nothing to do with power. A spell card duel is perfectly safe, and is not unpleasant at all for residents of Gensokyo, since they willingly engage in them all the time. And it wouldn't be anything more deadly than a spell card duel.

WHY IS THIS THREAD STILL HAPPENING?

>>8620154
It's probably an elaborate troll.

Pretty sure with the appropriate citations added there's enough material for a dissertation in here. Just not sure in exactly what.

>crtl+f
>type in mima
>two results

Bitches, the lot of you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5egF0LiV81w

>>8620188
Just reading the word "dissertation" is slightly depressing. I think I may be allergic to boring shit, Anon... What should I do?

>>8620188
Touhou metaphysics.

>>8620210
While I do love Mima very much (so much that I spent a whole year thinking about an elaborate fanfic to write about her, only to give up later), there is simply no real canon evidence for her power level.

At the very least though, we should be able to conclude that Mima is more powerful than Marisa.

>>8620212

Unless you're studying for your PhD, dissertations are so easily avoided and in fact so easily overlooked and missed that you should have absolutely no problems there.

>>8620150
>Even if there was mutual respect, and even if it is out of respect for power, it still doesn't necessarily mean that Eiki is stronger than Yukari, let alone the strongest.

I argue otherwise. There is nothing that indicates Yukari is stronger than Eiki. However, there are several indications that Eiki is incredibly powerful.
Once, from Yukari statement.
A second time, from Yuuka's statement.
Yuuka challenged Eiki to the title of "Strongest in Gensokyo".
That can only mean that Yuuka believes Eiki is the strongest.
When Yuuka talks to Eiki, it is completely different from when she talks to everyone else, because Eiki is extremely powerful. She does not "tease" Eiki, unlike everyone else.

>Because there is no reason for Yukari to feel that any threat of power that Eiki might bring would be unpleasant enough to leave right now.

No, there is no reason for Yukari to feel any threat of power. Eiki does not have that kind of personality.
However, what they are talking about IS power level talk. The references to power levels prior to Yukari's statement steer us to believe that way.
And when Yukari did state that they are no match for Eiki. It would imply that she is talking about actual combat.
Otherwise, there is little reason for them to talk about Eiki's power prior to her arrival.

>226 posts and 40 image replies omitted

This is legitimately hilarious.

>>8620462
>However, there are several indications that Eiki is incredibly powerful.
Yes, but there are no indications that Eiki is stronger than Yukari, aside from Yukari's statement, which is completely inconclusive.
>There is nothing that indicates Yukari is stronger than Eiki.
Yes, but there are many indications that Yukari is incredibly powerful, in a league of her own.

>However, what they are talking about IS power level talk.
Your entire argument is based upon a few statements beforehand being related to power level. However, you'll note that Yukari's statement about them being "no match for" Eiki is different because whatever she's talking about there, it gives her enough of an incentive to leave. No matter what Eiki's power level is, it would not be doing that. On the contrary, the Japanese statement can be easily interpreted to mean that she simply doesn't want to be nagged by the Yama, and that there is no point in arguing with someone like her.

>>8620467
There's never enough powerlevel wanking.

Ever.

>>8620518
>Yes, but there are no indications that Eiki is stronger than Yukari, aside from Yukari's statement, which is completely inconclusive.

How is that inconclusive? This makes little sense.

>However, you'll note that Yukari's statement about them being "no match for" Eiki is different because whatever she's talking about there, it gives her enough of an incentive to leave.

We are talking about Touhou right? Where when people talk about power levels, they mean it.
You know, like many other examples on when they refer to power levels? Like Eirin or Kaguya's statement about Yorihime and the intruders? Or during Inaba of Moon & Earth, when Tewi told Reisen that Suwako is a god, so therefore very strong. Suika during IaMP, Tenshi during SWR? You know all power level talk?

I don't see how you are choosing to ignore this, when the most obvious choice is to believe that Yukari is indeed talking about power levels.

Even during PoFV, around when this book is released, they talk about power levels. Why would you choose to ignore the most logical evidence?

Yes, it is POSSIBLE that Eiki is not that strong. But evidence say otherwise. However, NOTHING indicates Yukari can beat Eiki. Why would you blindly believe otherwise?

Yukari's powers are clearly limited in many ways, so I don't see why this matters much.

>On the contrary, the Japanese statement can be easily interpreted to mean that she simply doesn't want to be nagged by the Yama, and that there is no point in arguing with someone like her.

You can interpret a single statement many things many ways. However, context says to not interpret it that way.

>>8620610
>How is that inconclusive? This makes little sense.
I've already explained this, pay more attention:
>whatever she's talking about there, it gives her enough of an incentive to leave. No matter what Eiki's power level is, it would not be doing that. On the contrary, the Japanese statement can be easily interpreted to mean that she simply doesn't want to be nagged by the Yama, and that there is no point in arguing with someone like her.

>We are talking about Touhou right? Where when people talk about power levels, they mean it.
You see that quote that I pasted above, in order to remind you of what I said? Yeah, that. You've provided no reasoning to counter it. And it very nearly proves that she's not talking about power levels.

Whenever Eiki meets someone among the living, she inevitably lectures them, every time. We have every reason to believe that this will happen in this case as well. We also know that whenever Eiki lectures people, they find this unpleasant, and they avoid her for this reason. There is nothing new about that. However, we have NO reason to believe that Yukari would be leaving because of anything related to Eiki's power level. Now, let's review. Which is the more likely choice? Which is the one that makes the fewest number of additional assumptions?

>>8620664
>You see that quote that I pasted above, in order to remind you of what I said? Yeah, that. You've provided no reasoning to counter it. And it very nearly proves that she's not talking about power levels.

What the hell? That quote you provided proves NOTHING. All it says is you can interpret it any way you want.
It is like you choose not to read what I said or something.
You simply IGNORE CONTEXT.

>However, we have NO reason to believe that Yukari would be leaving because of anything related to Eiki's power level. Now, let's review. Which is the more likely choice? Which is the one that makes the fewest number of additional assumptions?

We DO have a reason to believe she is talking about power levels. Stop ignoring context.
Right before Eiki's arrival they talk about her power.
Then soon after, they say they were no match for her.

Both choices come with a LOT of assumptions. ASSUMPTIONS that you seemed to make as facts. You ASSUME Eiki lecturing Yukari would annoy her. So much so that you ASSUME Yukari would LEAVE because of it.

You also ASSUME that Yuyuko would be annoyed of Eiki's lecturing. Since before they left, Yukari said "we are no matched for them". We would mean Yukari, Yuyuko and possibly Reimu.

Do note that Yuyuko being annoyed at Eiki's lectures are most likely a FALSE ASSUMPTION.
It is canon that Yuyuko contacts Eiki on a semi-regular basis.

The only reason why you would assume Yukari is talking about power levels is because you ASSUME Yukari is somehow stronger than Eiki with NO PROOF.

>>8619354
>You're using the thing we're arguing about as part of the argument itself. And this makes no logical sense.

Only it does. I'm trying to demonstrate that something does not lead to a contradiction. I can do it by assuming it's true and then demonstrating that no contradictions occur after that assumption. What's so hard to understand here?

>My argument is that, in order for Yukari to be referring to power levels, there must be some threat of power present.

That's an unwarranted assumption, but I've been fancying you and also assuming it's true. It does not change the outcome.

>However, there is no serious fight.

Most probably true, but I already explained there doesn't need to be.

>There is no intimidation.

You can't prove that, period.

>There is no fear of future judgment.

You can't prove that. Yes, I know you tried to argue this, but you were doing so by making additional unwarranted assumptions.

And I've also been explaining that there is no need to assume a possibility of serious fight, or even intimidation or future judgement for the threat of power to be present. All that's needed is Yukari not being able to oppose Eiki's potentially unwanted actions with her own powers. I have my points covered on pretty much every level here.

>They didn't listen to her regardless.

Listen as in "hear out". Not listen as in "obey". And yes, they all had to and did. (I assume you're referring to PoFV characters, not to the fact that Yukari and Yuyuko did not because they ran away, since the latter woud be trivial and pointless.)