/jp/ - Otaku Culture

Why? I don't want to live in Japan, nor I want to meet Japanese people either.

>>Laura

Yes mom.

i did and it was HELL

so i got to this part, should i wait for tomorrow to do this again?

>>8461081
I naturally remember it, since I learned at growing up with english.

Laura>Everyone on Infinite Stratos (No, Charles is full of shit you faggots)

chifuyunee

Finished RTK and working through Tae Kim's right now. Did anyone else have trouble when first doing this? His explanations don't make any fucking sense, and sometimes his example sentences include Kanji that he doesn't give readings for even though he has an example list of Kanji he will use. Fucking retard.

His explanation of the difference between は and が is fucking stupid. He uses them in the examples of each other. And he doesn't even say the point of "ru" and "u" verbs. He just says "ru" verbs are this, and "u" verbs are that. But WHY? What is the point of the classification? How are they different?

>>8461081
225 today. I stopped after 5. I'm not in the mood right now. I'll do it tomorrow.

It's been about a month since I have done my reps.

It will probably be another 4 or 5 months before I get the motivation to study again.

>>8461125
I don't remember having any of those problems aside from the kanji he used.

I believe he explains the ru and u verbs in more depth later on. not that I know how far you are

>>8461125
They are different because they have different rules for when you modify them.

400 kanji down for this anon. I only do 10 a day because it's hard, but it's pretty easy really.

>>8461170

That's it? That's fucking STUPID. Why can't it just be the same then? It should be different because they have different implications/meanings, or are different classifications of verb for a concrete reason. Not some arbitrary bullshit for NO REASON. For example "ed" and "ing" are different because they mean different things in English. That's like saying "X" and "X2" are the same, but the only difference at all is that "X2" has a "2" with no meaning. You must learn them both. What the fuck?

>>8461111
>>Charles

Vomitchan.exe

>>8461187
Because japanese isn't english. There is a fuckton of useless and retarded stuff in the english language as well.

>>8461204

I'm so frustrated with this Tae Kim guide already and I'm only like 4 chapters in. Why is he able to make example sentences that are questions without using "ka"?

>>8461217
Probably because he's bein real with you. In informal writing and speech you don't always use the ka.

I cant understand why you would want to learn Japanese from a Korean

>>8461125
Honestly, most of Tae Kim's explanations made the most sense of any I've come across.

>>8461223

Here's what I was talking about earlier:

アリスは学生？／うん、学生。

ジョンが学生。

He defines が as the "identifier particle", so why is he using "は" in the first but not the second? It doesn't make any sense. How the fuck am I supposed to know when to use the correct one?

>>8461280
He's OK. If I remember correctly, there are some problems with his terminology, but his guide has decent explanations overall. There are a few books that are linguistically-based and make for good references if you need more clarification than what's given on Tae-Kim's guide although they aren't as practical.

>>8461187
if conjugation rules are breaking your head then you might want to consider another language.

very few languages are regular. in english, for past tense we usually use "ed," but there are many exceptions such as ate, ran, did, spat, drank, etc. the only difference is that they actually stick to their two rules and there are only 3 or so irregular verbs.

>>8461296
ga and wa are not exactly interchangeable, but they can often replace one another with little change in meaning.

the difference between the two is actually not very well defined. i don't think i've ever seen a textbook which gives a perfectly sensible explanation. there does not appear to be one rule to go by.

they're context based particles. their use changes based on the matter at hand, so defining them is very difficult. if you think u and ru are hard to understand, wa/ga is on an entirely different world of conceptual difficulty.

Took me a whole day to get motivation and repeat 60 cards from my Japanese deck as well as add 4 new words. I feel like the slowest Japanese learner ever. Oh, and my Heisig rate is 3 new kanji/day, though I'm relatively close to finishing it.

>>8461338
My Japanese teacher at community college (really cool old Japanese lady; she goes to the local anime convention and showed us clips from the Pokemon anime in class), said that there are people who write their masters' thesis on は vs. が. If you find an explanation that makes sense, chances are it's not very accurate.

>>8461338

He should at least have a disclaimer concerning that even he doesn't know how the fuck to explain what he's teaching properly on that page instead of throwing random example sentences with no explanation that all contradict what he said about the respective particles. Or the guide should be renamed to "Retarded Korean Monkey Gook Tae Kim".

>>8461125
>And he doesn't even say the point of "ru" and "u" verbs. He just says "ru" verbs are this, and "u" verbs are that. But WHY? What is the point of the classification? How are they different?
I think you might have the idea behind the classifications backwards. There are two different conjugations for words that end in る: one follows the same rules as ぬ, ぶ, す, etc. while the other follows its own set of rules. There is no real "point" to them (although there are probably historical/linguistic reasons): it's just a method of classifying verb conjugation in the language. The people who classified the conjugations didn't "make" them: they just organized them after the fact.

The question is similar to "why are there so many different types of declensions in Latin?" Because the languages before Latin had even more types of declensions that might have had a purpose once but lost that purpose over time. It's not a stupid question, but it's not a question that can usually be answered within the context of the modern form of the language.

It is very important /jp/. You could've finished all of your kanji by now!

>>8461459
SHUT UP I KNOW JEEZ

Ok, I'm done with today's reps. You can do it too, /jp/!

Do you guys create your own decks?
I have been using the shared decks and I am wondering if I am doing it wrong.

I have tried making my own in the past by throwing new words in every time I encountered them but it get overwhelming after a while because there is a lot of shit I don't know.

>>8461459
In the past year I've spent more than 2000 hours on an MMO.
Your words have no effect on me anymore.

>>8461669

Depends on the purpose of the deck

I have to do one of the biggest lessons in Heisig so far. I just can't be fucked.

>>8461724

You shouldn't go by lesson.

>>8461728
Eh? Why not? I figured it'd be easier to learn all of the similar ones in the same sitting.

>>8461755

Because some lessons have 100+ and some have like 15. You'll still learn the similar ones together regardless; that's the point of the order.

>>8461755

I think your previous post should make it very obvious why it's not a good idea. Just pick a number per day that you won't lose your motivation over and stick to it. You can always cut or add a few if it fits neatly into a lesson end.

>>8462029
Lol Khatz is random as HELL xD

>>8462037
Every time you make an ironic post, god kills a kitten.

Please, think of the kittens.

>>8461102
Not him but does anyone want to answer this?

>>8462049

There's no reason to review early. The SRS algorithm optimally schedules reviews.

Not yet since I went straight to sleep after class today. Going to hop on them in a bit.

>>8462071
>The SRS algorithm optimally schedules reviews.

Sometimes I wish I kept some reaction images of laughing people on my disk...

See what you're doing? You're tempting me to shitpost, Anon. Please don't do this.

>>8462188

I have no idea what you're talking about. If you're saying the SRS algorithm is not optimal then scientific studies and many fluent people disagree.

>>8462198
They aren't optimal, they're ballpark figures. The larger the review intervals become, the greater the permissible deviation from the due date. There's no way a computer can know when you will forget something. Not yet, anyway.

>>8462226

False. You can't make an assumption without evidence, and if you have evidence it hasn't been presented. Either way your post is invalid for now at least.

>>8462198
Strictly speaking, it's not and cannot be optimal, and no science would ever claim that, but I'm assuming you're just making some mental shortcut here, so I'll let it slide.

But no, there's no proof that fixed algorithm works better than individualized scheduling. In fact, there's little proof that the choice of scheduling algorithm is important in the first place.

>>8462243

False. Know that your personal opinions about the subject matter are irrelevant; unless you've personally evaluated the algorithm then that post is also invalid.

>Figure 4

>Trade-off between the knowledge retention (forgetting index) and the workload (number of repetitions of an average item in 10,000 days)

>As compared with equally spaced repetition schedules, for the forgetting index equal to 10%, in the period of 50 years, the discussed model produces an about 50-fold increase in the speed of knowledge acquisition (i.e. speed of learning)

>In a long-term learning process, 50% of repetitions are devoted to 2.5% of short-interval learning material (actual learning process measurements). This number can vary greatly in practice and in ill-structured learning material, even a smaller proportion of items can take most of the learning time.

>A user of SuperMemo can use SuperMemo's statistical tools to verify this number on his/her own. The actual figures will strongly depend on the intensity of memorizing new material. The following example is taken from a 10-year-long learning process:

eroge everyday

>>8462234
Do you have any idea how stupid what you are saying actually is? You are telling me a computer can pinpoint the precise moment you forget a fact. That is absurd beyond words. Jesus fucking Christ you're a persistent little fuck. Fine. Here.

>http://ankisrs.net/docs/DeckProperties.html

>For example, the default range for cards answered with the 3rd answer button is 3-5 days. When you answer a card, a random value is chosen within that range, so you may get a next time of 5 days, undo the card, and get an interval of 3 days the next time, or vice-versa. The range is designed to reduce spikes in the number of reviews you have to do each day.

>While Anki stores a card’s next due time in seconds for the sake of ordering, the scheduling algorithms are an approximation of your memory, and are not accurate to such a precise time. Answering a non-failed card a few hours earlier or later than it is due will have no noticeable impact on your memory.

There. Are you happy? The author of the fucking program himself is telling you he skews the intervals on purpose so your little faggot asshole doesn't collapse from the number of reviews.

You've really pissed me off with your attitude. I'm so angry now. I hope you're happy.

>>8462265

Irrelevant. It's called the forgetting index. It can and has; it's not 100%, but it's 90% and has been proven.

>>8462251
Who are you quoting?

>>8462287

A Supermemo documentation.

>>8462278
You obviously don't know the meaning of the words "optimal" and "approximation". Please locate your nearest online dictionary resource and place the definitions it offers you into your English Anki deck to avoid embarrassing yourself in the future.

>>8462295

Oh I do.

>As compared with equally spaced repetition schedules (IE: traditional), for the forgetting index equal to 10%, in the period of 50 years, the discussed model produces an about 50-fold increase in the speed of knowledge acquisition (i.e. speed of learning)

That's optimal, and this statement is supported by concrete evidence. Therefore you are wrong about everything.

>>8462301
I'm not arguing against the forgetting index. Scroll up. You were telling someone not to review early because the algorithm is "optimal". The reality is that if your cards are due in 60 days, it makes almost no difference if you review them on the 56th or 64th day. He can review early as long as the interval isn't very small. That's all I'm saying.

Now let me get back to my reviews.

>>8462335

If it makes no difference then it's detrimental (assuming that wasting time is a bad thing) for him to do it as it's not going to help his long-term retention. This means that it's fine how it is and as such the algorithm's decision is optimal.

>>8462291
I was hoping for a link, but whatever, fine, Google is my friend.

And, if you took care to actually understand the text you're quoting, you'd notice that nowhere does it claim that its exact algorithm is optimal or scientifically proven in any way. All it says that intervals should gradually increase with time, without providing any argument for any specific method of achieving it. Also, the only thing it's optimized for is number of repetitions - which is, obviously, not necessarily what a particular user of the method may care for.

>>8462415

It's optimal by definition if you like learning exponentially faster.

>>8462373
>assuming that wasting time is a bad thing

How about you assume someone has free time to spend at the moment?

>>8462446

There's no reason to spend it on forced early reviews that won't help his retention. That would be unoptimal.

Oh boy.

>>8462431
>exponentially faster

It does not make you learn faster, Anon. At all. It just makes you spend less time learning. And it's only "expotential" compared to repeating everything you already know all the time.

And, seriously, stop using the word "optimal". It does not mean what you apparently think it means. Use "optimized", if you need to.

>>8462474

You're agreeing with me.

>>8462456
>won't help his retention

Actually, yes, it will, and noone sane would claim otherwise.

>>8462486

False. When the interval for forgetting something is far enough away active-recall is irrelevant to long-term retention. This has been proven by the algorithm. Therefore reviewing things before they're due is largely meaningless.

>>8462479
Are you the person claiming that a person should learn when the algorithm tells him to, rather than when he wants to and has time for it? Then no, I'm not agreeing with you.

>>8462499

By definition you did. You simply don't realize it unfortunately.

>>8462498
The point is, if you have work, exams, or your imouto's birthday party to attend the next day or two, you review early so you don't have 800 reviews pile up the day after, which would put you in a cycle of trimming some cards only to have another 300 new ones appear by the end of it, effectively setting you back a week without any new material, which is depressing.

>>8462515
I guess you just don't understand what I'm saying.

Unfortunately, I have no way of figuring out what it is you're not understanding.

Just finished, woo! Tomorrow's a spike day. That almost always demotivates me, maybe this thread will still be around and encourage me to power through.

>>8462591

I notice you have Display Fusion installed. What deck is that btw?

>>8462287
Who are you quoting?

>>8462601
Yep. Kanjidamage.

>>8462604
>Who are you quoting?

>>8462606

Cool. Here's my Kanji Deck. I stopped added cards (for now) a few days ago because my plan is to do the first 555 kanji of 2001KO in Heisig order, and then do Tae Kim (doing now) and Core 2k Step 1&2.

>>8462604
>2012
>Cannot figure out who someone is quoting
Newfag detected

Does anyone else find his art arousing?

>>8462623
Are you sure you want to do both KO and Kore? Seems a bit excessive. It's mostly the same vocab as well. KO shits on Kore in terms of sentences that won't drill a boredom shaped hole in your skull. I'm half way through it now, just did my 200 reps for the day!

>>8462681

No, no. I'm learned the first 555 kanji in KO order; that's all. This is so I can do Core 2k Step 1&2. For more information on this method: http://forum.koohii.com/viewtopic.php?id=5322&p=1

This shit just doesn't end. The Review Time is bullshit. I've spent at least twice as long.

>>8462849

That's not too bad. You only have 120 due tomorrow, and it's descending.

>>8462870
It never descends because I'm adding 25-100 per day. This week was awful since I had to play catch-up because of that crater on day -5. Missing a day pretty much kills me. I'm also not showing my other decks.

The things I do for glorious nippon.

>>8462914

What decks are you running right now?

>>8462870
It never descends because I'm adding 25-100 per day. This week was awful since I had to play catch-up because of that crater on day -5. Missing a day pretty much kills me. I'm also not showing my other decks.

The things I do for glorious nippon.

>>8462923
The one in the image is KO. I had planned to be on 50% by now, but I'm 3% behind. How sad. But I guess it's still decent for 30 days' work.

I have a deck for names and a deck for random vocab (half of which is stuff from earlier KO since it gives you 3 new words in a sentence sometimes).

RTK English meanings deck. Finished with RTK1 a month ago with absolutely no desire to continue.

>>8463050
Then don't. I dropped it a month after finishing it too. Just try to maximize your kanji coverage as quickly as you can so the knowledge doesn't go to waste while you still have it. (And for this I'd recommend KO).

>>8463078
KO?

>>8463102
>http://www.coscom.co.jp/ebook/e-2001kanji.html
It's pretty good. There's a shitload of sentences (3104) with audio, although you need a basic foundation of grammar to understand the sentences. A lot of people recommend Tae Kim for that, although I didn't use it myself.

The sentences are also reasonably more realistic than typical beginner resources, although it can only go so far. Here are some examples.

>>8463137
Kanji Odyssey, huh? I assume it's still doable without knowing the on-yomi/kun-yomi kanji readings? Also, do I need to get the program itself or will I be fine with just the deck? Thanks for the help, man.

>>8463155

Not the other guy, but isn't the point of doing sentences to learn readings?

>>8463155
Well the point is that you learn the readings by using this, using actual words. You don't need to know anything beforehand.

There's nothing stopping you from grabbing the deck and just looking up the meaning of each new word in edict or whatever, but it's certainly more convenient having the actual CD since they're already in the right order, saving you from looking up every single one of them manually each time.

It's not like it's expensive. It's also just HTML pages so I wouldn't be surprised if you can pirate easily somewhere, but that's wrong!.

>>8463254
>wouldn't be surprised if you can pirate easily somewhere, but that's wrong!.
Hahaha. Thanks for the help. I will get started on KO tomorrow since my brain is dead right now.

>>8463280
Not sure where you got the deck from, but the one uploaded here has the audio and the images.
>http://rtkwiki.koohii.com/wiki/2001.Kanji.Odyssey
Get the one in three parts.

The images are probably better than plain text since it highlights the words you should be testing with a blue character. I grade myself liberally if I don't understand non-highlighted words, since those are words that will be tested later on anyway. It's also got a nice font and furigana.

The audio is extremely helpful at first, but slows you down later. Do whatever you want with that.

Hey /jp/, what do you reccomend I use?
Native fluency in everything, just can't read 2nd grade+ kanji. I can read hiragana katana etc all fluently.

目くそ鼻くそ笑う

bump

>>8465253

You're not fluent if you can't read. If you mean you have a fluent vocabulary and can speak fluently I find that unrealistic considering /jp/ers are the types to read and not speak.

>>8465253
>katana
you're not fluent

>>8467043
*katakana
Forgot that 4chan really fucking hates spelling mistakes.

/jp/! You really need to put that eroge down and do your reps!

>>8467107
Well, it's kind of important to get these things right if you're lrearning a new language.

>>8467107

Spelling mistake aside you're not fluent.

>>8465253
Can you translate these katanas for me?

>>8467104
ugly as HELL hairy mole, so distracting >:(

>>8467154
http://fuuka.warosu.org/jp/?task=search2&search_text=mole&search_username=wtH
I'm starting to think you're not a fan of moles.

>>8467154
>>8467159

Stop samefagging, shitposter.

>>8467150
The pleasure of cutting inside

>>8467159
shut the HELL up ugly as HELL hairy mole lover

Working through Tae Kim still. Finding the grammar to be pretty difficult, but maybe that's because I only know part of it so far.

My decks currently. Not using the Kana one anymore as I'm reading it so often that there's no need, and the bottom deck was used as a reference because it had a field for sorting in KO2001 order.

/jp/ I'm sorry, but you really need to do your reps. This hurts me more than it hurts you.

I'll do it tomorrow
┐(￣ε￣ )┌

>>8467896
I just finished. 55 of my 219 cards I did today, I get to repeat tomorrow.

Errr... I don't do kanji with no context. I dic.yahoo to get sentences so that the kanji I learn have context.

I'm up to aprox. 1.2k flash cards..

>>8467950

That's what we all do. The people who do kanji first is to help them learn readings better and to write them from memory, but they still do the same thing as you.

>sees Laura

THIS IS NOW AN INFINITE STRATOS THREAD

MOAR IS

>>8468040

No.

even if you learned some Japanese...
wouldn't it still be a pain to read anything? Don't you need much more time to understand even a few lines which you could have read five times faster in English instead? Why even bother?

>>8468882
If everyone thought like that, there'd be no one who would know Japanese that could translate it in to English. Where would you get your shit translated in to English then, huh?

>>8468884
but those are professional translators! We are self-studying twerps with minimal motivation. There's no comparison.

>>8468882
You're absolutely right. In fact, not only do you read it slower, but you are very likely to have lots of holes in your comprehension, so unless you are very proficient in Japanese you are most likely dampening your literary experience by not reading in English.

I suspect most people on /jp/ delude themselves into thinking they actually completely understand everything when in reality they've become complacent with understanding the gist, and do a lot of guesswork or sentence skipping. Note that I'm not saying nobody really understands Japanese here; I just imagine that is the state most have actually arrived at.

People most likely just want to feel they're doing something constructive with their time.

>>8468931

It takes like 18 months to get fluent now if you're smart. Khatzumoto-style.

>>8468931
I've been studying Japanese full-time for 3 years and I completely agree with this. Reading in English is still much quicker and less of a pain, and trying to pretend otherwise is dumb. I enjoy discussing both translated and untranslated material in /jp/, but it really makes me cringe when some guys who can't read without JParser/Rikaichan pretend to be superior to "English only peasants".

>>8468963
Fluent in 1 year and a half? Bullshit, that's not possible even for the easiest of the languages.

>>8469313

You have much to learn. I assume you're the type that wasted years taking classes.

http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com/blog/about

He isn't the only one. His methods with SRS technology make this possible.

bump

>>8463137
Did you modify that deck yourself?
Could you please upload it somewhere?
It looks way better than the one from Shared Decks.

>>8469313
I can honestly read smoothly and fluently, as long it's basic.
I grew up with one side of my family being Japanese, other being Chinese. My Mother was really forcing Japanese on me since I was a young child, so I learned it fluently.
However, I had to drop out of Japanese Saturday school at 6th grade due to the middle school I went to being very tough, and me being immature at the age. Didn't study Kanji at all after that (Lazy ass)

As a result, 18years old, I am now conversationally fluent, I can read fluently and understand every word, except for the fact that I cannot read 3rd grade+ kanji.

>>8468882
>which you could have read five times faster in English instead

You're assuming there's English translation of what one would want to read.

It's a stupid assumption.

>>8468882
To read very fluently, you need to be raised learning it like me, or be very dedicated and learn for it years. I personally would never understand the pain you guys go through trying to learn Japanese though.

Do your reps anon!

>>8472596
...thanks. I wasn't gonna do it today but now you scared me into it.
Why are there 681654 kanji that mean chastity?

>>8470328
It's the same deck from >>8463352. By the way, those sentences are actual .gif files scraped from the CD. The whole media folder is 400MB with the audio.

I removed several fields that I didn't need to make the deck smaller.

>>8472596

OP here. That's my job! /jp/.... if I have to tell you one more time....

>>8472984
C-c-c-can't I h-help?
Do your reps too OP

>>8473036

No. Just... no. Let OP handle that.

>>8470874

Khatzumoto learned it in 18 months. He could speak easily with natives and read documents he had never seen before in front of audiences. This invalidates most of what you're saying.

>>8473142
That frustrates me. I think he just has some ability to learn languages easily.

>>8473156

Nope. He makes the point of him not being special at all very strongly. The secret lays within the AJATT method.

>>8473142
Khatzumoto is a lying sack of shit. I have no doubt that he is fluent in the language, but he conveniently likes to omit everything he did before his "18 months", because he thinks it doesn't count because no "real learning" happened. Things like learning the Kanji or, geez, University classes. Oh no, that doesn't count at all.

Also, we never had evidence of his fluent speaking ability until he was already living in Japan for a while (a couple years, I think). His "fluency" of 18 months probably pales in comparison to his fluency of two years after. He probably was just very good without knowing how much more he needed to improve until after he went there.

I dislike much about that guy. He is a salesman and a very good one.

>>8473181
Get out AJATT dev.

>>8473206

He hasn't omitted anything from that. Kanji is included in the 18 months, and he even posted a schedule of his day during his "hardcore" phase; he was very verbal that he had normal adult commitments too which makes it all the more amazing. Additionally if he could secure a job and read in front of live audiences his fluency was at least at the level of a high-school graduate. Unfortunately your complaints are invalid simply due to lack of research on your part.

Forgive me but is there a FAQ somewhere that describes how to use Ankii best with Japanese. I know the basics but is there any place with Japanese specific information?

Do most people make their own cards?

Tl;dr Does a Japanese specific FAQ exist? Including information on decks?

>>8473270

No. That's like asking if there's an FAQ for learning Japanese on a computer; Anki is simply a platform for SRS, and not the only one. There is a Japanese plugin which adds some features, so you should have that. The bulk of the "process" isn't specific to Anki though, and is the same regardless of which SRS.

>>8473270
http://forum.koohii.com/viewtopic.php?id=5322

>>8473280

That's not an Anki guide it's a Japanese guide (Do RTK in KO2001 order -> Tae > Core 2k 1&2) where he happens to use Anki but doesn't require it. I think explaining that to him is important.

>>8473270
What do you want to know? What isn't obvious to you already?

Most people use pre-made decks for resources that are proven to be good (TK, KO, ADBJG, etc). You need to create your own decks eventually for the things you want to learn or encounter yourself. Beyond the most common 10 thousand words, you're pretty much on your own, so it's better to focus on stuff you yourself need (vocab from VNs and Vidya, I would presume).


>>8473286
Pretty sure the use of Anki is implied. You can use other methods if you want, but it'd be your own loss, really.

>>8473280
This is exactly what I was looking for. Thank you! Is there any other forum links like this?

>>8473303

Perhaps I interpreted him wrong, but it seems fundamentally his thinking is wrong because he thinks Anki is a learning Japanese tool when in reality it's a general purpose SRS. Of course it can be used that way, but fundamentally he should understand this distinction.

>>8473310

http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com/blog/about/overview-page

>>8473315
Thanks yes my original post was poorly written. I do understand the distinction. I just wanted to know a little more about the premade Japanese learning materials that can be used with Ankii.

>>8473303
Basically I want to know what the best premade decks for jlpt 2 study are. What premade decks are the most thorough and easiest to use.

>>8473345
Well...it depends on which resources you want to use. Pretty much any good resource has a good deck to go with it. You should ask yourself which resource you wish to use rather than which deck to base your learning off.

If you want vocab, Kore6K or KO are heralded as some of the best to use. For grammar there's a Tae Kim for basic stuff, and A Dictionary of Basic Japanese Grammar for a comprehensive overview.

If you haven't even started and you want to learn Kanji, use RTK or kanji damage.

Apart from Kanji, vocab, and grammar, the only thing left is to get decks based on anime/drama. I'm not doing that yet so I can't recommend any pre-made decks, but people use the program subs2srs to create the decks for them.

>>8473345
Oh, and there are specific text books targeted at specific JLTP levels, like Kanken or whatever.

You guys just motivated me to learn Kanji.
How many cards a day should I do? 20?

>>8473544

10-15 for people taking it at a very slow pace. 20-30 is average. 40-50 is what more hardcore people do, and 100 is what some insane people do. Whatever you do: DO. NOT. STOP.

Even if it's just 1 kanji on some days when you're so tired; never stop. Many of us in this thread will tell you that this is the most important thing you will read, as a lot of know the feeling of having to start it all over after getting too lazy. Read AJATT frequently for motivation.

>>8473560
>Do not stop
>Read AJATT for motivation
/thread

>>8473560
>100
>insane

I did 150. Come at me onee-sama.

It's better to get it out of the way as soon as possible so you can learn the language for real. The initial kanji learning is probably <.5% of the language. Your exposure from reading real things will eclipse whatever isolated kanji reviewing you do beforehand by many orders of magnitude. For that reason, don't take learning kanji too seriously, because once you get the hang of them, you can learn them (or re-learn them with ease) when you actually need them.

My 2円.

> Many of us in this thread will tell you that this is the most important thing you will read
It's true. One day off is the first step to 400 days off. I would know, since I've actually done this.

Strangely I've missed multiple days along the way but never more than one in a row. Somehow the massive amount of reviews the next day never stopped me from doing them.
There are just some days I really don't feel like doing reviews and I'm glad it hasn't become a problem.

>>8473602

Props to 150. I'm assuming that was at least 4 hours of time for learning new cards daily not even including reviews which would be like 200-300 daily.

>>8473615
Anki has stats and they say 3 hours or less a day, but I really don't trust them. See >>8462849.

Using RTK, btw.

It was 5 months ago so I can't remember precise numbers, but I reviewed any chance I got, almost all of it on my phone with ankidroid. 1.5 hours commuting by train both ways, lunch break at work, and a bit during work itself. easily made it more than 2 hours of reviews a day. That usually left very little to no reviews once I got home, so I spent all of that time adding new cards. I went nuts with them on weekends.

The way I added new kanji was very streamlined. It shouldn't have taken as long as you say. I didn't "learn" them separately, I viewed it as a new card in Anki, then I just looked at the top story or two on http://kanji.koohii.com/study, then failed the card, then moved on to the next one. When anki shows the card again (it's a "failed card" at this point), I'd try to draw the character. Usually I'd fail and look at the story 3-4 times before it passed eventually. Somehow, I was able to recall most of them when they came back for reviews in the following days.

So I say it's streamlined because you test yourself very shortly after learning them. Trust in your brain, and I promise you will recall a good chunk of them. Even if you fail 40%, you've still put 60 characters into review circulation.

I think it's easier if you do more characters than less (if you have the time to), simply because the earlier characters (or parts of them) appear in later characters.

>>8473667

>I didn't "learn" them separately, I viewed it as a new card in Anki, then I just looked at the top story or two on http://kanji.koohii.com/study, then failed the card, then moved on to the next one.

You were doing it wrong actually. All of your first-time cards are failed, and now you get a 0% for that statistics. You're supposed to learn them via imaginative memory before you see them in the SRS the first time. A bit inefficient... but glad it worked out for you.

>>8473678
Don't worry, I'm a staunch detractor of the Heisig method. I only used his splendid ordering and primitive names using my own techniques.

Heisig has a PhD in religious studies, not cognitive science. This "imaginative memory" is something he completely made up, and I don't think there is anything in science that uses that term (google just shows stuff relating to Chinese characters). Thus, anything he says is completely irrelevant to me.

I didn't use "imaginative memory", I used mnemonics. It clearly worked, too. Also, I did my reviews both ways, much to the dismay of internet denizens.

>>8473708

Heisig's degree has nothing to do with his prowess in other areas; that's a fallacy in reasoning, and as such your post is largely irrelevant. If you have a 0% pass rate in any statistic you're doing it wrong. Flash-cards are for review.

Also,
>>8473678
>A bit inefficient... but glad it worked out for you.

Not if your goal is time-based, as was in my case. If your memory aid fails to make you recall a character, it is much more efficient to find out as soon as possible so you can improve the aid. Waiting until the next day is inefficient.

For learning Japanese grammar, what do you guys think of the Genki books and CDs?

>>8473714
Everything about your post is wrong. There's nothing stopping me from having a technique better than Heisig, just because he put the characters in a nice order.

And I had a 97% pass rate for mature cards. Oh, but no, they don't count all! How does it matter how you initially learn a fact, anyway? What a stupid thing to say.

I don't care anyway; I'm way past kanji in my studies.

>>8473733

Any source is okay. Just don't study grammar formally past the basics; you will pick it up in context when you do sentences.

>>8473734

>Everything about your post is wrong.

Baseless assumptions like this are meaningless.

>There's nothing stopping me from having a technique better than Heisig

Strawman. I'm well aware of this.

>Oh, but no, they don't count all!

Of course they do. Strawman.

>How does it matter how you initially learn a fact, anyway? What a stupid thing to say.

Efficiency. If you have a 0% pass rate in any statistic you're doing it wrong. Flash-cards are for review.

>>8473736
Oh I see, you're the SRS autist from before. Arguing with you is obviously pointless.

I don't see why you need to invent this 0% metric either. I use anki for learning.
>http://ankisrs.net/docs/FrequentlyAskedQuestions.html#_anki_needs_a_learning_mode

Problem?

>The default delay of 10 minutes / 20 failed cards is designed for learning efficiently. Cards you are able to remember after 10 minutes stand a good chance of being remembered again the next day.

Oh, wow, it's almost as if this actually happened to me! Oh, wait, that's because it did. It's a good thing I rely on Damien Elmes for my studies and not some /jp/ autist.

>>8473763

>It's a good thing I rely on Damien Elmes

By your logic he can't be relied on as he doesn't have a PhD in cognitive science. It must be very embarrassing to checkmate yourself, isn't it? The only concrete thing here is that people learn just as well as you, and even better, without having a 0% first-time review pass rate. Simply your existence proves you wrong.

>resorting to ad hominems and name-calling

This is a sign of your resignation. Take it easy. No reason to get so angry when you lose. I understand that your feelings are hurt, but try relaxing.

>>8473772
You're right, I shouldn't have called you names. I apologize. What do you think, then, is an appropriate gap between initial learning and first reviewing? And why do you think it's better than the 10-minute gap that Anki gives you?

I don't think there is any difference in efficiency. You just happen to count the first review as an extra review which is inefficient, whereas I count it as learning within the SRS, which is identical to just looking at it on a web page elsewhere. The fact that it's a "failed" card in an "SRS" is an arbitrary metric.

There is going to be a learning mode implemented in Anki 2.
http://ankisrs.net/docs/dev/changes.html
http://ankisrs.net/docs/dev/manual.html#learning

>>8473813

Fundamentally a 10 minute gap works out fine; there is no issue with micro-intervals, but if you're going to do a "cram mode" like that you could always learn them properly beforehand, and then review first-time cards for what you learned 10 minutes later. This way your statistics won't be skewed, and you'll likely have a more proper learning experience as cards tend to be more streamlined as they're naturally taken from a source material. In the best case scenario you'll be learning just as well, but still failing cards that shouldn't be failed.

As far as the issue with imaginative memory, regardless of skepticism with Dr. Heisig, it should be known that if you were employing it you wouldn't need to see a card 3-4 times before passing it. These two reasons together is why I called what you were doing inefficient. It can be said that a card tagged with "fail" is simply an arbitrary marking and is ultimately meaningless, but if you were to spend 3 minutes learning a Kanji with imaginative memory you'll likely only fail it once or twice throughout it's course ultimately cutting down on reviews.

>>8473846
Putting aside the accuracy of the statistics, the 3 minutes of effort to learn a character is ammortized in the 3-4 failed reviews anyway. It's the same thing in the end, as far as I'm concerned.

The difference for me is that being queried by anki to recall a fact does much more to strengthen a memory than trying to learn it outside of anki. It's putting me on the spot, if you will. So for me, this trumps other forms of (kanji) learning, including imaginative memory, whatever that may be.

>>8473667
>I think it's easier if you do more characters than less (if you have the time to), simply because the earlier characters (or parts of them) appear in later characters.

This here is, in my experience, the sole most important part about learning kanji.

In fact, you have a better chance of remembering a kanji if you learn a few similar ones at the exact same time. It actually saves you time if you learn some obscure unused radical separately just to have the mnemonic to remember the important kanji that contains it.

>>8473560
>DO. NOT. STOP.

What if you're running out of kanji?

>>8473890
You'll still be doing reviews, and I guess adding sentences if that's what you choose to do.

>>8473846
>it's
You're better than this.

>>8473889
>being queried by anki to recall a fact does much more to strengthen a memory than trying to learn it outside of anki

If we're talking about simply learning, maybe; but the best thing that can happen to you is spotting the kanji in some text you're trying to read (and realizing you can't recall it outside of anki). And it will invariably happen. At most once for every character, fortunately, you WILL remember it afterwards.

>>8473889

>The difference for me is that being queried by anki to recall a fact does much more to strengthen a memory than trying to learn it outside of anki. It's putting me on the spot, if you will.

If it true that active recall strengthens memory, but there's a slight error in what you're saying. If you see first-time cards without learning them you aren't testing active-recall, as you have a 0% chance of answering it right. The proper way to implement micro-intervals is to learn and then see it in Anki; this still preserves the "10 minute wait", but tests your active-recall.

>>8473904

0/10

AJATT is fucking retarded, and so is every single person doing it.

But anki is pretty cool if you don't just use it to look up english names for kanji.

And reading >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> anki, just keep that in mind too.

>>8473907

It is true*

>>8473896
I'm thinking about words, I actually prepared myself a deck and keep filling it with words I think I already know or should know, but haven't gotten around to seriously review it yet.

What's the point of reviewing entire sentences? Isn't it better to just read real text by that point, will it actually aid my grammar recognition any more than that?

>>8473918
The point is to review vocabulary in context. Words without context don't quite work a lot of the time.

My new year's resolution was to master all the kanji. I have more than 90% retention in each and every review. How long do you think this will take me to finish?

>>8474259

What's your rate?

What do i need to study in order to read super robot war games.

>>8474259
what program is this? Will it help me read srw games?

So is anki good for actually learning Japanese? or do i need a basic Japanese first? Is it good for read srw and vn games?

>>8474285

http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com/blog/about/overview-page

>>8474289
thanks, guess ill go with anki. How long will it take to read a srw game? do they have hard japanese?

Which decks should i download?

>>8474267
Depends on my mood; some days I only add a couple, other times I add ~50.

>>8474276
It's not a program.

http://kanji.koohii.com/

>>8474316

Then obviously we can't tell you how long you'll take.

>>8474325
I'm just worried that the next lesson will fuck me up real good. It has the highest concentration of kanji so far.

>>8474330

Don't go by lesson. Just go by a daily amount.

So im using Japanese core 2000 step 01, that good for a starting out?

Welp, I'm only learning an average of 4 kanji per day. I'm the "slow and steady" type, I guess. Been doing it for almost a year.

>>8474338
Use it in combination with something else to make it more effective. Using another source such as Tae Kim while doing the core series helps because you'll keep seeing the same kanji and words across both and it'll help greatly with remembering them.

>>8474350
Keep at it! I restarted RTK 3 times (stopping around 600 each time) before I finally got through it. If slow and steady works for you then keep doing it.

>>8474366
Yeah but I hope he's doing something else during that time, because 4 kanji a day and nothing else is not just hopeless, but also very sad (because of how delusional that kind of effort is).

I've sorry to say this, but you aren't going to accidentally learn Japanese by playing VNs. It's a tremendous investment in time, and you need to be prepared to invest it wisely or you will waste a lot of time from your life stuck in an endless cycle of lackluster learning and re-learning.

Slow and steady does not win the race. Slow and steady dies from old age before his 5000th Japanese word.

>>8474397
how many words should i do a day? I just started and it said 20 words a day.

>>8474397

>Slow and steady does not win the race. Slow and steady dies from old age before his 5000th Japanese word.

False. The Tortoise always beats the Hare. The Hare ends up like >>8474366

His slow pace is perfectly fine.

But I've already become fluent in English, making up for having unluckily been born outside the States, what good will a third language do me?

Saging my worthless post.

>>8474426
Because everyone knows English and it's not worth shit anymore.

>>8474421
>The Tortoise always beats the Hare.

Life is no fairytale, Anon. Life is no fairytale.

>>8474450

Burnout is as real as it gets, unfortunately.

>>8474421
I'm not saying you absolutely must do 100 words a day. Just not 4. That would take more than 10 years just for 15k vocab, which isn't exactly great. Even if your SRS pushes some words out to over 5 year intervals, you still aren't using those words in real Japanese, so even your knowledge of those isn't ideal either.

I wholeheartedly endorse 100-words-a-day sprints, however. I think most people can handle a burst of 400 words in a week, provided they don't do it regularly.

I just think a little bit of ambition can go a long way.

>>8474412
20 is just fine, but don't set it as an artificial limit. If you feel like learning more in one day, then learn more.

>>8474494

The true solution lays within finding the middle-ground suitable for you between the Tortoise and the Hare. Not so Hare that you burnout (common beginner mistake), but not so much Tortoise that you don't make significant enough progress.

>>8474494
>100-words-a-day
I don't believe an average person is capable of doing that. Not unless they are JLPT 4 level words and you spent the entire day on it.
And it doesn't count if you forget it all by the next day.

>>8474531
>Not unless they are JLPT 4 level words and you spent the entire day on it.
Both were true in my case, although I don't see what JLPT level has to do with it. If anything, it would be easier to learn words if you already know a lot of them because the probability that the word contains characters and readings you already know become higher.

I didn't forget most of them. One of the reasons I love and recommend KO is because it re-uses words you learn regularly, usually around the same time you're supposed to learn them in the main list.

There's no way in hell I can keep it up though. I did it during the new-year period, where I had a couple weeks of work off and plenty of time to do nothing but nipponese.

Actually, looking at my deck stats, my daily average for the last month was 42.6 new cards a day, and for the last week 16.7 new cards a day. This is a terrible week! God damn it. I'll have to do 100 a day this weekend to make up for it. Thanks for making me notice, you huge faggot.

>>8474589
Because when you get this list,
製品
大蔵省
株式
基地
運営
制御
財政
構想
規制
極めて
行政
具合
活躍
児童
特徴
鋤焼
政権
構成
窮屈
催促
there's no way in hell am I getting this memorized in 1 day, and this is just 20.

Not to mention when you already know 5 words for the term business/corporation, and then you have to memorize a sixth expression for the same god damn thing.

It's from Core6k, by the way.

>>8474601
Fuck yeah I know 4 of those. Pretty much fluent.

The synonyms piss me off too. I don't see what is wrong with that list though. They seem like ordinary words to me. I thought higher-level JLPT would have things like 適合性試験報告書.

>>8474637
Conformance test report is a hell lot easier to remember than 運営 and 行政 next to each other.

>seem like ordinary words to me.
Sure they do. Good for you then.

>>8474677
Don't worry, I have my own set of words I struggle with that I'm sure you'd find simple:
開かれる
知識
次第
簡潔
低い

...are my most failed cards, in that order. They look perfectly ordinary, and I'm sure a lot of people find them simple.

What do I do if my penis is REALLY big? Can I still learn Japanese?

>>8474366

Story of my life.

>>8474601
>大蔵省
why would you learn this

I'm thinking of trying to power through kana within two weeks or so, moving on to basic grammar/ lexicon and then committing suicide instead of learning kanji.

>>8475196

It doesn't take two weeks; it takes like 3 days. Basic grammar is okay, but don't study it formally beyond that. Do not skip Kanji.

>>8475196
> moving on to basic grammar/ lexicon and then committing suicide instead of learning kanji
I found Kanji much more productive and fun to learn than grammar, which isn't even difficult compared to English or French.You can't just rush them in a month, though.

/jp/ it seems we're going to have to take drastic measures...!

Is it really that important to know the on and kun yomi when going through Anki cards? Or can I get away with just understanding the meaning?

I am Chinese and I can understand the words no matter how complicated, but the different readings for even the simplest word always fucked me up.

>>8477381

Learn them from context.

I'm currently learning around 20-30 new kanji and 10 new words each day. Is that a good pace or should I learn more words or even more kanji?

>>8477390

It's not recommended to learn words while you learn Kanji.

I do, I do. Almost 5 hours per day, actually.

>>8477382
Do you mean I should only learn how to read them when for example they are used in a sentence, and not learn them individually?

>>8477395
Why not? Do people really learn 3000 of them before learning their first few words?

>>8477411

Yes. Readings will be picked up from the context of sentences. Learning individual readings solely by themselves would be inefficient.

>>8477420

It's not a bad thing to learn vocab on the side as long as you can keep up a decent RTK pace, but optimally you want to finish RTK as fast as humanly possible as your journey doesn't start until then. Everything you do on the side makes this takes longer, and likely impedes your long term progress.

There is a point where you need to start learning grammar in more detail while learning kanji+readings and vocabulary+expressions, while reading. Besides it's more fun that way.

事

I hate this fucker, why does it have so many completly different meanings.

>>8477420

Oh, and no. Most people stop after the Joyo Kanji which isn't 3000.

>>8477425
That makes sense. Going to raise the amount of kanji I learn each day then.

>>8477434
Can't all of them be described by the word "thing"?

>>8477443

Careful though. Don't not end up like >>8474366

Head the advice in >>8473560

I'm finally close to finishing RTK 1. Should I continue on to RTK 3 or start vocab after?

>>8477449

RTK 3 isn't necessary immediately after. You'll likely want to dive into sentences.

>>8477446

If it only were that easy. The worst thing is personal pronoun + koto. It makes me rage whenever I read that.

>>8477449
I would not recommend RTK 3 at all unless you can tell the difference between like 30 different kinds of trees and flowers.
Seriously, that shit was frustrating and just made me give up.

>>8477453
>>8477481

Well RTK 3 has some kanji for words that seem reasonably common, so I'll probably eventually do it. I'll try something else directly after though for a nice change of pace. Thanks for the input.

>>8477504
>so I'll probably eventually do it
No you won't. You'll promptly realize you aren't a botanist and continue learning the 90% of the actual language covered by the first volume.

Although I can see some people falling back on RTK3 as an illusory goal to make them feel like they are making progress. The kanji, frankly, are the easiest part of the language. With RTK, you have no thinking to do at all. It's all there, laid out for you, pure and systematic, no ambiguities, and a clear path that is guaranteed to work if you follow it. (This is also why you can do it in 20 days). The rest of the language is actually kind of hard, and nowhere near as comfortable.

Btw, if you can't learn kanji on your own after the first 2000, you have some serious issues.

Can any of you fast learners tell me how you can reach a rate of 20 or even more kanji / day? I've got terrible issues when composing stories. I can stare at a kanji for more than an hour and still fail to come up with something my mind would accept as a distinctive story. Right now, for example, I've spent more than three hours thinking about 抑, 仰 and 迎 (figured if I could replace the right part with some additional primitive, it could help), but nothing solid comes to my mind yet. Sure, there are simple primitives, such are alcohol or illness, which produce very simple and logical kanji, but they are unusual. Does everyone just use stories from Koohi? I thought about doing so, but somehow it feels like cheating to myself. I wonder whether my imagination is just really poor or I'm doing something wrong.

>>8478337

It doesn't have to be that complicated, but it still should form an image. For example, though this is fictional, let's say we have a kanji for a rare archaic synonym of "drink" with the primitives "red" and "goat".

For the story you could have something like: "Red goat picks up ice cold drink outside of lemon aid stand". As you can see this is short, simple, easy to think of, but still forms a distinct image in the mind.

God damnit Japanese. Why do you have so many words that mean the same thing. It wouldnt be so bad if every god damn word didnt have 10 homophones.

so since all these threads seem to be about rtk and such, I'll change it up a bit:

How do you guys learn listening? I started learning japanese almost three years ago, have read several VNs, and am at the point where I don't look up stuff often for not using AGTH to annoy me (read grisaia only looking stuff up occasionally) but my listening is mediocre. The best thing I can come up with is just playing japanese podcasts or something in the background as I do stuff. What do you advanced peeps do? Most dramas seem boring and I haven't found anything thats grabbed my attention yet on nicodou.

>>8478385

I've been running AJATT-style immersion for a month now, so I get plenty of listening.

>>8478353
> Red goat picks up ice cold drink outside of lemon aid stand
Feels like Heisig himself would have suggested this story. I used precomposed stories of this kind in the beginning of the book, but found that the majority of them fail regularly when reaching a repetition period of 2 or 3 months, and I could even remember that I learned them after that period. So I got the feeling that although I could rush Heisig in 2 or 3 months, chances would be that shortly afterwards I'd find myself buried in failed cards in Anki despite revising them on time.

>>8478353
> Red goat picks up ice cold drink outside of lemon aid stand
Feels like Heisig himself would have suggested this story. I used precomposed stories of this kind in the beginning of the book, but found that the majority of them fail regularly when reaching a repetition period of 2 or 3 months, and I could not even remember that I learned those kanji at all. So I got the feeling that although I could rush Heisig in 2 or 3 months, chances would be that shortly afterwards I'd find myself buried in failed cards in Anki despite revising them on time.

>>8478411
> Red goat picks up ice cold drink outside of lemon aid stand
Also, to be more specific, in your story, for example, I would clearly forget whether those were "goats"(if there was such a primitive), "sheep" or "cows" and what the other primitive would be: ice because "ice cold"? Tent/roof because of the "stand"? Finger because "picks"? Water because of the "drink"? Red because of red goats? Or, perhaps, some combination of them?

>>8478353
> Red goat picks up ice cold drink outside of lemon aid stand
Feels like Heisig himself would have suggested this story. I used precomposed stories of this kind in the beginning of the book, but found that the majority of them fail regularly when reaching a repetition period of 2 or 3 months, and I could not even remember that I learned those kanji at all. So I got the feeling that although I could rush Heisig in 2 or 3 months, chances would be that shortly afterwards I'd find myself buried in failed cards in Anki despite revising them on time.

Also, to be more specific, in your story, for example, I would clearly forget whether those were "goats"(if there was such a primitive), "sheep" or "cows" and what the other primitive would be: ice because "ice cold"? Tent/roof because of the "stand"? Finger because "picks"? Water because of the "drink"? "Red" or some other color because of colored goats? Or, perhaps, some combination of them?

Is Kanjidamage a good deck? I remember using the site way back. Needless to say I got bored and quit after 100 kanji or so.

>>8478453
Dunno, but it's an extra mnemonic source. Doesn't hurt to give it a try whenever you're stumped.

>>8478453

It's good. Think of it as RTK with a good way to learn Onyomi at the same time.

Bump.

>>8478432
You probably want to lower the revise times(or whatever you call this) and make sure to always have a clear picture/story in your mind when drawing. Fail the card if you forget the story even if you get the kanji correct.

>>8482941
> Fail the card if you forget the story even if you get the kanji correct.
This is how I've been doing it. The problem is, in the case of red goats >>8478353 mentioned earlier (or most of Heisig's sample stories), there is no real story where each element would be important and irreplaceable, so I can see no way to be sure to remember all of them and not to mix up with something else. Maybe I'm being overly cautious, though, and such abstract stories will be remembered eventually after a number of failures, too.