/jp/ - Otaku Culture

So i just got too the tea party in ep8, how long is it and how long is ???. also i still have to read the trick ending.

Anybody even here that has read the booklet?
where is everybody..

Why is nobody talking about the booklet?
I thought everybody would be all over it...

No one gives a fuck about Umineko anymore.

Also what do you guys think the story would of been like if bt never died?


>>8334463
But the fucking booklet of answers is right in front of us, nobody on /jp/ has even read it yet?

>>8334471
ah forgot my image.

Discussing things does not belong here.

>>>/a/

>>8334479
after all this, we are not gonna have at least one last fucking thread about what happened in the final answers? come on, somebody just tell us what it says.

>>8334424
it was most likely r07 insulting his fans more and spewing out buckets of stupid
i have no love left

come on...guys..
you really dont want to know?

>>8334505

Everyone's too busy playing Ougon CROSS.

Also, /jp/ already knows everything about Umineko.

here
http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=3927670&postcount=26755

>>8334514
Thanks, hopefully somebody who has read it all will come in this read soon.

>>8334502

>>8334514
>Beato is going over the plan for her latest game board with Dlanor. It's still a work in progress. She explains that turning the plan into a proper story is the hardest part, and making the surface plot work with the hidden plot is harder than actually working out the tricks. She's always writing two stories at the same time, a fantasy and a mystery, but she only reveals half of it. It's like cooking only a small part of a cow and throwing out the rest.

Dlanor calls it extravagant, but also regrettable. She says that if people saw the discarded portion, they might be impressed with the taste and the bold cuts, but without that, most wouldn't be as discerning as Beato would like. Although Beato claims that she writes for only one in a thousand people, she actually wishes that the other 999 people would enjoy it too. It's foolish to deny herself that by burying her own story in darkness.

Well gee, that sure doesn't sound like anybody i can think of!

> Although she was searching for someone who had love, I am sad to say that ironically, her heart was filled with anger at those who did not.
> Love exists in everyone's hearts. Her true tragedy was that she couldn't see it.

Well, that doesn't sound like Yasu. It does sound an awful lot like Ikuko though.

Just finished everything but the trick ending.
One thing i still don't get, how did battler really see beato (or yasu). i mean did he really see her as beato that whole time? So what was the real reason for battler not too see her/him real self? was he just crazy or something? I mean i feel very heart ached at the story ending and all, its been a very long ride but... some things i just wish things made more sense or were at least brought to light. Also who did Jessica really love? did she even really love yasu or notice him as being fake? Also what was with the golden rose at the bottom of the sea and battler "coming back" after going up? Who was the painting really of? I mean which beato really was it and where did all the gold go? why didn't they return to the island at the very end and look through everything?

>>8334667

Well you chose the "magic" ending. All of the stuff that happened after that was completely blended with fantasy. The parts with Ange leaving and becoming an author, and finally meeting Battler were likely real.

However Battler and Beatrice leaving the island, the orphanage part and whatever else I am forgetting are probably just "magic" versions of the real events just like the "magic" version of the murders on the island.

So you just have to take from them what you will.

>>8334709
So maybe battler didnt even love yaso or Shannon but just the picture of beato? or maybe he didnt love her at all and it was just through yasu eyes? Im guessing yasu killed herself by jumping off the boat because battler told her he didnt lover her?

I forget, could somebody post that really confusing beato time line. which was the one that died with eva (or was it rosa)? was that the mother of yasu?

>>8334725
>Im guessing yasu killed herself by jumping off the boat because battler told her he didnt lover her?
That scene probably didn't happen at all, or if it did, it was very different to what's shown.

How come Battler isn't freaking out when he's on a boat?

>>8334725

If she did kill herself, I imagine it was because she had just killed, either directly or indirectly with the bomb whatever the real truth is, Battlers entire family.

I think the reason for the scene was to hint that Beatrice got her miracle and Battler really did remember his promise in the end. That's just my guess though.

>>8334725
Yasu may not have even been on the boat in the first place. The scene is more about metaphorically locking Battler inside the cat box with Beatrice (due to the death of his personality) than depicting anything that really happened.

>>8334731
First there's the Beatrice Kinzo met. Kinzo gets her pregnant.

Her child is the Beatrice Kinzo kept in Kuwadorian, the one Rosa met. Kinzo gets her pregnant too.

The child is Yasu, who after a fall off a cliff due to Natsuhi rejecting her gets secretly located to the orphanage, Fukuin House. She is later hired by Genji.

>>8334734
If it really didn't happen, why did battler write it? Wasn't the whole story written by battler? Why would battler write about knowing yasu as being beato, if he didn't even know it? the point of yasu just really doesn't seem to matter by ep8 because there are still other killers beside her, so she/he i guess doesn't even matter. Its just the part where if battler really even saw her as beato or not is what im really confused by and through whose eyes the whole story is taking place or why battler wrote about beato being something else in the first place.

>>8334731
This one?

>>8334776
Battler (Tohya) has the most trouble remembering the events closest to when he had his brain damage. That event is extremely close.

If the scene is indeed something he wrote or at least thought, it could be only roughly based on the facts he can barely remember, mixed with all sorts of fantasies and things he only knows after the fact, after he reached the truth as Tohya.

>>8334749
you know, what the fuck was even the point of all that. Was it only to show that betao wasnt who she was and how everything related to kinzo? How do we even know if kinzo past was real? who was writing akll the the past events and how did they even fucking know about it?

>>8334798
Also what is the trick ending? where does it lead off from? Also is the trick ending considered more true?

>>8334798
>>8334815
Don't think too much, you'll get a headache.

>>8334798
Three possibilities.
1) Yasu survived, became Ikuko, and put all the info in the stories herself.
2) Yasu told Battler all about it before she died, and Tohya remembered it.
3) It came from witches in the meta world and was never part of a story in the real world.

>>833481
Im pretty sure the "trick" ending is the false ending.
The author was slapping everyone in the face with the fantasy ending for the last 3-4 episodes you were expected to side with magic and if you didn't then you didn't understand the point of the final game.

At least I'm pretty sure that's what he was going for.

Witch Hunt with Ryukishi07

>>8334831
Well am i at least making any sense, if battler was the one who was writing everything, how come he know past events, fuck how could he know or how could Ikuko know about going on a date with george before it all happened? (which i think was ep2) Also if yasu is Shannon and fucking kanon why did he/she try to get with both Jessica and george? what was the point of that?

>>8334857
when and where was this?

>>8334815
Well, Magic is considered the "right" ending, but neither of them are "true". One Ange has meta-knowledge and the other one is running around with Erika and an object she got from Battler's game board, so they both more or less have to be fictional.

>>8334881
So even ange cant be real?
then who is she really?
maybe the crazy killer who thinks she was ange and a little girl at the time? Maybe it was just some crazy kiiler who at the time thought he/she was a little girl (ange) then thought he/she grew up? even though he/she was already older (like 18-20) at the time of the killing? and then from then on left and became ange?

>>8334798
All the past scenes with Kinzo seem to be Tohya's assumptions. He knew from the first two games, based off what Yasu left behind, that he looked like Kinzo when he was younger, as well as any other details she might've left behind in those two games. For the scene during WWII where Kinzo's 43, he's identical to Tohya because Tohya is 43 at the time of writing EP7/ the time EP7 took place.

As for the details regarding how he came about the fortune, evidence might've been left behind. As for all of the scenes with Yasu, it could have all been dicated to him before he lost his memories.

>>8334895
But how did battler know about rosa knowing the second beato and also how kinzo had sex with both beatos?

>>8334870
>>8334831
>>8334798
>>8334815
Look at these people still thinking any of these are worth knowing.
Dude it is a fucking fictions. Do you know why it is called fiction? Because stuff were added into it to make it more exciting. The real story is probably boring as fuck. Maybe there wasnt any mystery at all, Rudolf and Kyrie just straight up kill them all. Battler probably turn on the fucking bomb because he felt embarrassed to have such a fucking bitch as her real mom. He couldnt accept himself being a killer so he try to lie to himself that he isnt Battler.

All in all, Umineko is a really shitty story. I wish I could meet with the real Ryukishi and tell him how shitty his story is.

>>8334881
How do you know the object is actually from the gameboard, and not an object Ange came to find through other means? Like it being a possession that was returned to her from Rokkenjima? Or something that reminded her of the portrait, the same doll?

How do you know the Ange in the magic end has meta-knowledge? I don't remember her proving that she did, she simply had a change of heart. We are shown several futures of Ange. Like her killing herself after learning the truth, the trick ending, her being killed on Rokkenjima. This is the ending where she decides to leave the truth alone and sort things out to the benefit of everyone. Just because it differs from other paths we are shown, it doesn't mean Ange needed meta-knowledge to take that path. Maybe it was the path she would have taken all along.

>>8334908
Wasn't some of the stuff regarding Rosa mentioned in EP2? Or was that EP3 already?

As for the incest stuff I have no clue. Maybe Yasu told him at some point. She likely found out after becoming the sucessor.

>>8334908
Also if battler knew the past of yasu, does that mean he knew yasu was beato, even though the toyha wrote about battler not siding with battler knowing who beato really was? Also what was the whole point of adding in another mom? that had no point at all but adding more plot holes.

>>8334908
>and also how kinzo had sex with both beatos?
By how many Beatso there were.
>But how did battler know about rosa knowing the second beato
Rosa didn't keep it to herself, she told Genji too. He could have gotten this information somehow, or guessed it. He could have reasoned the existence of the Beatrice at least from the hidden mansion and the rumors he used to get told about Kinzo leaving for days in the forest.

>>8334915
Ange makes a few refrences to things Bern said during EP8's meta sections.

What was the point of george/Jessica loving kanon/shanon anyway , did that really even happen? how did george/jess really see yasu and did they maybe know but were also crazy in the head?

>>8334932
>Also what was the whole point of adding in another mom?
You mean what was the point of Kyrie existing at all? Because much of her motivations are created from her jealously of Asumu? Kyrie was Battler's real mother without knowing, because Rudolf switched the children. It created an interesting situation where the child Kyrie despised was actually her own.

>>8334932
Ryukishi was probably going to execute the whole mom thing differently. In the end it just boiled down to Kyrie not having any issues with killing Battler since she didn't know he was her kid. We still don't know if she had the chance to anyway.

>>8334955
That really had no point at all to the plot but adding mire confusion then.

>>8334893
Could this be true?
could all the stuff about anything with ange in it be fake?
>>8334958

>>8334945
I will have to read it again, but if she does, does that prove meta knowledge still? Bernkastel was a character in the forgeries, and also perhaps in the book Battler claims to have read once (Higurashi). Ange already had all sorts of imaginary friends in her future that we're shown thanks to Maria, why not Bernkastel too?

>>8334960
>Because much of her motivations are created from her jealously of Asumu
Kyrie was probably one of the main culprits of the actually tragedy, so why isn't this relevant to the plot?

You could say that Asumu never existed in the first place and Kyrie was always the mother, but this would cripple Kyrie's motive, it would require another reason for Battler to not visit Rokkenjima for 6 years as well.

>>8334958
yeah it felt like he was gonna use whole mom thing in a more crazy extreme way but just gave up on it. I really wanted something deeper with it too or Asumu being the killer. the same thing could be said for rosa ex husband, he wasnt used at all after ep3. Also fucking genji did shit.

>>8334967
Ange is mentioned in EP2, iirc. Her birthday was written on a closed room. Again, iirc.
So she definitely exists. As for the whole meta thing, it depends on whether or not you think it happened to some degree.
But saying that all of the stuff with Ange in it didn't happen at ALL essentially means you're forgoing everything after the first two episodes. Hell, you're basically saying the whole incident was a story that didn't even happen in its own universe. That sort of beats the purpose of having the story in the first place.

So why were the closed room murders never solved, what was point of all those numbers/clues and shit. Also he never used the tip section after ep2.. Did those even happen? if they did, why were they seeing golden butterflies?

>>8334981
Rosa's ex-husband apparently wasn't nessecary at all, but he should've gotten some backstory. Genji basically guilt trips for messing up Yasu even worse than she already was and so he can be considered an accomplice to some degree.

Let's not forget how Ghoda was going to have an affair with Natsuhi before Ryu dropped that plot point too.

>>8335000
>Hell, you're basically saying the whole incident was a story that didn't even happen in its own universe.
A large portion of it didn't. Because it was a fiction made within its own universe. That doesn't beat the purpose, because there are reasons for the people in-universe creating the fiction (Yasu wanting to create the catbox, Tohya wanting to recover his memories), and the fiction is based on real events.

>>8335011
>Rosa's ex-husband apparently wasn't nessecary at all
Rosa's ex-husband is essential to the story in the terms of his absence. The important part is that Rosa is a single mother left alone, not who the father actually is.

>>8335013
The thing is denying Ange was ever involve also denies everything about Tohya and all of the character development, really. If ALL of Ange's scenes (as it was suggested) are to be treated as fiction then there isn't a Tohya and there isn't any structure to who designed which games.

That's the issue with that idea.

>>8335044
I didn't say those scenes didn't happen. Maybe I came into the conversation at the wrong place.

>>8335052
I guess you didn't suggest it then. Someone earlier in the thread suggested that.

Not ALL of Umineko is written by Beatrice/Battler. How else would you even know they were writing it if all of it was? The very scenes where they are said to be writing it would need to be written by them too. Some of the stuff we are shown simply never takes place in any of the forgeries, and that is how we learn more about the reality of Rokkenjima.

>>8335000
There are too many Anges with too many contradictory timelines for them all to be real. In the real world, she probably vanished without a trace after going into that skyscraper, and her fate became a cat box. Then the stories about her are basically Tohya trying to understand what kind of person she was and looking for hope that she could have survived.

>>8335074
>There are too many Anges with too many contradictory timelines for them all to be real. In the real world, she probably vanished without a trace after going into that skyscraper, and her fate became a cat box
You are probably right here.

Except I think the last story is what actually happened.

>>8335065
>Not ALL of Umineko is written by Beatrice/Battler. How else would you even know they were writing it if all of it was?

The thing is, they do not. Battler is making up the details from his own incredibly pitiful childhood.

>>8335074
The EP8 Meta Ange is the same as the EP3 and 4 one. The whole scenario for EP4 was basically an alternate version of the Trick ending in EP8. EP8 refers back to those two eps (all of the meat refrences and such), so that's where that's coming from. (EP7 Ange is obviously EP8 Ange too. She also talks about EP4.)

Real world Ange ends up not jumping and turns into Kotobuki.

We have two Anges. Whether or not those two share memories or crap at some point is still up for debate.

>>8335093
Forgot to mention, the Trick Ending and EP4 real world scenario Anges are obviously not real.

>>8335093
Don't forget that EP4 Ange never met with Ikuko, so even though EP6 Ange is a modification of that timeline, they're still different versions.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQBGSpjfhZQ

A bunch of mentally fucked up individuals get trapped on an island, almost all of them are up to their necks in debt, their rich father is dying, none of them know what's in the will and some random person pops up to say their the true heir?

Oh boy this sure is one hell of a mystery. Man I sure wish someone would tell us what happened. This is so hard to figure out. Man, if only there was some clue as to what happened. Some tiny bit of information that might push me along to a logical conclusion. Damn you ryu07! Damn you to hell for creating this perfect mystery.

Who the fuck wrote that chapter shit in ep7? how did they know about yasu life? How did nobody know that yasu was dressing up as Shannon or kannon that whole fucking time, even more so how did battler and jess/ greogre fall in love with the same fucking person without noticing that she/hes voice sounded fucking the same and he/she was wearing a wig. Is it either the 3 kids and nuts in the head and delusional or is yasu crazy and delusional ? or is it none of that shit never even happened and it was just toyha making up shit for no reason?

>>8335119
Here's the point I was looking for. EP6 Ange is split here, which makes things a bit more confusing, but Kotobuki claims to have met Ikuko in the past, meaing that the EP6 Ange (the one reading the book, the one in meta is the previously mentioned Meta Ange, she knows Featherine in EP8 from meeting her EP6) becomes Kotobuki at some point. But this is a bit odd since EP8 Ange doesn't meet Amasuka until after everything is said and done and he's there during that whole scene in EP6.

So here's the thing. It's a bit of a stretch, but whatever. In EP6, Ange seeks out Ikuko because she heard that Ikuko learned the truth. Maybe she went to see her at some point post- EP8 only because she heard that Ikuko had reached the truth.

Otherwise, the memory transfer thing is the only other way around there being another Ange who can't exist because Kotobuki has to have met Ikuko before.

Any ideas?

Can someone just please explain this for me?
Everything? Starting with Episode 1.

>>8335172
The answer is seriously "no."

>>8335156
Yasu is crazy and also amazing at impersonating other people. Each personality has to sound different, so that's the deal with that.
She probably told Battler the whole thing herself at some point.

>>8335172
Ep1 - Bottled letter that Yasu threw into the sea
Ep2 - Another bottled letter that Yasu threw into the sea
Ep3 - Written by a memory loss Battler
Ep4 - Another book written by a memory loss Battler
Ep5 - Written by Battler that recovered his memory
Ep6 - Written by Battler
Ep7 - Written by Battler, probably the most accurate version
Ep8 - Ange's delusion

>>8335157
Yeah, plot hole. Also, wasn't there a scene where Ange was waiting to meet Ikuko and Amakusa was with her, but she had no idea who Amakusa actually was? Maybe this explains it. He wasn't there.

Non-meta characters who ended up doing absolutely nothing:
[x] Genji
[x] Kumasawa
[x] Nanjo
[x] Gohda
[x] Kanon (DOESN'T EXIST LOL)
[x] Jessica
[x] Maria
[x] Hideyoshi

SEARCH YOUR HEARTS, YOU KNOW IT TO BE TRUE.

>>8335190
Oh, if there is then that works out that plot hole. So then we still have two Anges. And maybe memory transfer (now maybe only based off of a few lines at the end of EP8).

>>8335203
Communism is just a red herring.

>>8335156
>Who the fuck wrote that chapter shit in ep7? how did they know about yasu life?
Probably Ikuko. If you remember, Bern was using a special gameboard by Featherine.

>How did nobody know that yasu was dressing up as Shannon or kannon that whole fucking time
Shannon and Kanon had different shifts. That, and Yasu had Genji and Kumagawa to cover for her. There's also the possibility that in the real events, Shannon and Kanon never existed, and they're completely fictional and are there to serve meta purposes.

>even more so how did battler and jess/ greogre fall in love with the same fucking person without noticing that she/hes voice sounded fucking the same and he/she was wearing a wig.

Battler was away from the island for 6 years. He barely remembered Shannon and he had just met Kanon. George only ever showed up in the island once or twice every year. As for Jessica... again, work shifts. That, and Kanon always kept her at bay. So, Yasu did seem to take some cautions on that matter.

>>8335203

don't forget Kinzo, he's fucking dead, and we know dead people do less than nothing

>>8335203
did Hideyoshi or nanjo even have 3 lines in ep8? I think they even forgot to add in Hideyoshi half the time later on. Also about the part where krauss found the gold in 1-4, what ever happened to that?

>>8335227
In any scenario where Krauss finds the gold, he basically just tries to keep it hidden from the others for as long as possible. Then Kyrie (probably) solves the epitaph and someone shoots someone and then kills off everyone else (except Battler and Yasu).

>>8335157
Didn't Kotobuki say she managed to discover who the author of the novels was but that Hachijou Tohya refused to meet her?

If that's so, then all Tohya or Ikuko did was to write a story based on a what-if scenario in which they did receive Ange. Honestly, that's a very dickish thing to do.

This shit makes sense only if you assume than Bern, Lambda and Aurora are real.

>>8335156
In the real events, there was no Shannon/Kanon. The servants went along with it, and George probably didn't give a shit (dude wanted a waifu, and what better waifu than some brain-damaged trap?), assuming that George and Yasu were in a relationship. The other two relationships were probably just delusions in Yasu's head.

>>8335247
Kotobuki remarks on how Ikuko hasn't aged at all since she last saw her. They met at some point.

>>8335263
Picture in a newspaper? Like from the time she did the Eva's diary stunt?

>>8335243
Why did Kyrie never become a beato then? Where did krauss find the gold again? and why did he not just use the gold? Is it because he was the only one was a heart or the only sane one out of the children?

>>8335248
Or you assume that it's all works of fiction (Yasu writing stories of how they would make the ultimate mystery for Battler; Battler working through his mental trauma by writing, while author-bitch adds in whatever she thinks will make the books sell), and this shit is basically a mass jumble of various plot twist from books and movies

>>8335263
What in the fuck.. when the fuck did they meet and talk about all that shit? Also does that mean the story randomly ends with the story ange picking a door?

>>8335247
Think of it as being like guilt for not meeting with her when he had the chance. By the time EP4 was written, she'd already disappeared, so Tohya must have wondered what happened to her and hoped she'd found peace.

>>8335267
Just re-read. She just remarks that she seems immortal. SO.

EP6 Ange who meets Ikuko isn't the current one.
EP8 Ange never met her
EP8 Ange implies that she has memories of EP8 meta Ange, who met Ikuko.

So either memory transfer or plot hole.

>>8335257
Wait so what was the fucking point of Jessica? why add all the love shit and also who was Jessica talking too at the school parts? Also so George knew but just didnt care? then why didnt he say anything to battler about going out with Shannon? what happened with al that love shit and eva hating Shannon anyway in eps 5-8.

>>8335172
A bunch of retards go full retard and massacre each other like those idiots from Cabin Fever. A few retards manage to survive. One of the retards starts writing books which are the equivalent of real people fanfiction. Retard's sister, who also has a case of the retards, is on an epic quest to figure out what happens. Meets an author on some Misery-type shit who has been pumping the surviving retard and using him as her personal muse.

Meta-world bullshit is fanfiction run amok, but none of that matters. All you need to know is stupid fuckers were killing each other in extravagant ways. Just ignore the witches, demons, magic shit if you don't want to end up confused. If you see butterflies, shit didn't happen.

That's all I got from it.

>>8335272

Which makes this whole series a completely pointless garbage.

Sorry but I'll rather believe in omnipotent crazy lesbians.

So did evas diary really exist? Does the book of confessions say anything about what really happened at all? or some of the plot holes? Or is it all just bullshit? Somebody summarize the best parts of the book.

>>8335312
Our Confessions just explains the closed rooms and why they were made in the first place.
Yasu made them for Battler to solve since he loved mystery so much in the past.

>>8335172
>Everything? Starting with Episode 1.

EPs 1-4 are fictional accounts of whatever event that took place in Rokkenjima. They're like... uhh... "The Terror" in regards to Sir Franklin's Lost Expedition.

As for whatever happened in the real Rokkenjima, we have not a single confirmation.

>>8335304

It's the other way around.

"Real world" is fanfiction.

>>8335302
>Wait so what was the fucking point of Jessica?
Cannon fodder

>why add all the love shit
I dunno, filler perhaps?

>and also who was Jessica talking too at the school parts?
The whole scene was probably fake

>Also so George knew but just didnt care?
Seems that way.

>then why didnt he say anything to battler about going out with Shannon?
George is a prick

>eva hating Shannon anyway in eps 5-8.
Eva's a bitch

This is all just guessing of course.

>>8335318
Thats fucking it? thats the whole reason for the closed rooms and why they were even in the story and had nothing to do with the actual plot? What the fuck was the point of ep1-4 then? who was the fucking killer in ep1 and what happened to the end with natshui? does it at least explain who was the killer in each ep and what happened in the very end?

So what did eva dairy really say, did the booklet say anything?

>>8335340
>does it at least explain who was the killer in each ep and what happened in the very end?
no

>>8335340
The whole booklet is basically Beato walking the reader through her process of making a game. It doesn't describe the plot in detail, it just confirms that the accomplices themselves change for most if not all of the episodes.

The thing is if it's Beato whose methods are being described in the booklet then it pertains to Eps 1 and 2 only. If Beato is just a front for Ikuko it refers to the rest of them.

So are you people new to this whole "it was all a dream~~~" plot twist or something? I don't get how it invalidates anything. Was everything that happened in that crappy hospital series suddenly irrelevant because we found out it was all the delusion of an autistic kid holding a snow globe? Or is that dude from Dallas's death any less tragic because in the end we found out it was just a dream? Just enjoy the ride, not the destination.

>>8335340
>thats the whole reason for the closed rooms and why they were even in the story and had nothing to do with the actual plot?
I suppose they were simply there, because mystery novels tend to have them. Beato does bring up Carr in Our Confession.

>who was the fucking killer in ep1 and what happened to the end with natshui? does it at least explain who was the killer in each ep and what happened in the very end?
You got all of that in EP7.
Our confession was as "direct" as Will was in EP7.

>>8335364
The gameboard she builds does reuse and explain most of the tricks from EP1-4, so it should be easy to reconstruct what happened in those games.

>>8335352
What the flying fuck man, im kinda pissed off.
This whole fucking time i just wanted to know want happened with natshui at the end of ep1 and what the fuck was going on. fuck this bullshit.

>>8335350
It tells a bunch of lies about how Rudolf and Kyrie just massacred all the helpless members of the family, while she went off and became Batman.

>>8335393
The bitch took an empty gun to a gunfight and died. What else do you need to know?

>>8335400
I just want to know who the fuck was killing everybody that whole time.

>>8335393
Are you the MILF guy who would ALWAYS shit up Yu-no threads?

>>8335393
Dude, she was the accomplice for that game. She went out to meet Yasu after the 8th twilight, probably to get the escape tunnel key from her, and got shot in the face for her trouble.

>>8335418
Maybe. But ive been waiting for the ending of ep1 and what the fuck was really happening since 2 years ago.
>>8335425
why would she even be a accomplice? how would she kill people that were right in front of her when butterflies were killing people?

>>8335416
In EPs 1 and 2, Yasu/Beato is the killer, with additional human accomplices. EP1 it was Hideyoshi (using the Kinzo body trick) and maybe someone else (Our Confessions hints at two per game).

>>8335436
wait, why the fuck didnt eva know about it, if Hideyoshi was doing it? What did he use to make everybody see golden butterflies?

>>8335439
In the last scene the butterflies were representative of Yasu. Whenever the Kanon and Shannon personalities are dead they use the butterflies to represent Yasu, (like in EP4 with Beato appearing at the end, with what 'killed' Battler being her jumping off the boat, unless in that scenario it was referring to an alt scenario where Battler gets killed by the explosion)

>>8335436
>Our Confessions hints at two per game
Actually, it confirms all the servants (plus Nanjo) as accomplices, and some randomly selected culprits for each game. In EP1 it was quite likely Hideyoshi, in EP2 is most definitely Rosa. EP3 is a bit harder, but it's quite possibly it was Eva. In EP4 I'm sure all the survivors of the massacre in the dinning room were accomplices.

>>8335432
Because there's no such things as magic golden butterflies, and Beatrice has a gun, a fuckton of money, and a huge time bomb that can only be escaped through a secret passage that she controls access to.

You know about natshui..
what the fuck ever happened to her getting headaches?
what was the point of that and why did he stop using that with her? Did he want to do something with that but gave it up?

>>8335455
EP1 basically confrims that, since both Kanon and Shannon are dead at some point and all the servants sans maybe Ghoda know about the split personality thing. The accomplices I was talking about the ones that are chosen to do the killings instead of covering for Yasu the entire time.

>>8335459
It was just a reason to put her in a certain room at a certain time.

>>8335455
Wait does it explain why they did it?
Why would nanjo kill kinzo and genji?
why would Hideyoshi kill anybody randomly without eva? does it explain their mind set at the time of what they were thinking? I would be very inserted in seeing what Hideyoshi is really like or what his thoughts were.

>fuck
>40 results found

Butterflies are illusions, Natsuhi shot herself in the face.

>>8335472
Really? thats fucking it? god dam, everything feels so worthless to the fucking plot.

>>8335474
Given the whole "without love it cannot be seen" bit, Hideyoshi was likely just doing things for Eva and George. Going by this, in EP1 he might've just been dead in the room with Eva and whoever the other accomplice was (maybe one of the servants since they were all alive at that time) just killed him off and didn't use the kinzo body trick.

>>8335478
What? that makes no sense, she saw something before she died. remember when umineko was actually scary and had somewhat horror to it and wasn't filled with just plot holes and magic?

>>8335466
> The accomplices I was talking about the ones that are chosen to do the killings instead of covering for Yasu the entire time.

Wait... I'm sure Beatrice did all the killings in Our Confession, and Krauss and Natsuhi were merely there just for cover-up.

>>8335474
As far as I recall, Beatrice killed everyone. As I've said, Krauss and Natsu were only there to cover her up, and they joined her out of being threatened by Beatrices. Beatrice's motivation is to place a game for Battler.

>>8335481
I'm getting the impression that you didn't actually read anything. Certainly not, like, all of EP5.

>>8335459
Gohda stopped drugging her tea, so she stopped getting headaches. Or there were no headaches because Battler had no idea that Natsuhi had constant headaches. Different authors, different characterizations.

>>8335487
>she saw something before she died.
Yeah, a delusion cooked up by that fried brain of hers.

>>8335481
>Really? thats fucking it?

Yes, that's it. Go read Our Confession. A lot of the character's actions are based on Meta-Motives.

>>8335495
Yeah, he's been asking the stupidest fucking questions all thread.

>>8335487
Name a plot-hole,please? Stop believing shit you see posted in troll threads.

>>8335498
Slurping slurping

>>8335498
I think the meta motives are limited to Genji and Yasu though. Beato was pretty thorough about establishing real motivations for everyone else.

>>8335484
Yeah, the chosen one's cover up the killings. That's what I meant by "do the killings." And by the servants covering up for Yasu I meant covering up Shannon and Kanon being in the same body.

>>8335497
Dont you call my moe natshui having a fried brain.


>>8335499
I haven't read 1-6 in a long fucking time, but i am asking questions that really should of been answered and are plot holes..

Anyone who's read And Then There Were None should be able to figure Umineko out.

>>8335516
Dude, she's moe because she has a fried brain.

>>8335519
Umineko did have niggers.

>>8335516
No answer=plot-hole?

Reading Our Confession and..
>However, that was wrong.
Out of those thousand people, she wished her story would reach even one more person.
If you asked her, she would surely laugh and deny it.
But those were without question her true feelings.

In the beginning, I was uncertain about releasing this manuscript. I thought that I should hide it, so as to preserve her mystery for the one-in-a-thousand savior she spoke so often about. But as I read and reread it... I began to realize that the manuscript was a message with no destination address.

heh.

Please tell me forest is better then this and is without magic or meta and retardedness and lame reasons for everything happening like a 18 love story..

>>8335531
You're in luck,retard! Forest has all of that~

>>8335531
You mean the Liar Soft Forest?
It's Liar Soft. And one of their former best writer's work.
It won't be an easy read by any means.

>>8335516
It's not called a plot hole when you forget half an episode of content that explains it. Natsuhi started getting migraines from emotional trauma and guilt after she caused Yasu and a servant to fall off a cliff 19 years ago.

>>8335539
So no magic or lame reasons for everything at least?

>>8335539
Huh, I kind of want to read it now.

>>8335542
Is it less boring/slow reading with nothing happening unlike the stuff that has already been translated by them?

>mfw I'm not one of the plebeians who couldn't understand Umineko

>"Flauros. Fura-chan. That has a nice ring to it, yeah.
>...Let's see here, appears as a leopard?
>When taking the form of a human, has the shape of >a man. ...Eeh, a man? I'd rather it was a cute girl.
>Let's change that. I'll go with a cute little girl who >looks good with animal ears.
>Sakutarou's ears were cute, so something like that...
>I'll try sketching her.
>*scribble scribble scribble*"

Silly Yasu, you can't make a person a different sex just by drawing a sketch. You need a Thai doctor and about fifteen thousand dollars for that.

>>8335567
>You need a Thai doctor and about fifteen thousand dollars for that.

You can always go to Brazil and pay much less.

>>8335573
And end up looking like Frankenstein? You must be insane.

what the fuck, the trick ending was nothing..

Did we really need the author to tell us that the closed rooms were created by motherfuckers locking windows and doors behind them?

So is any body reading the tips vn that also came out? Also how is Higanbana second night? is that the last one?

>>8335600
Yeah, Higanbana is done for the time being. There will be a secret new thing next Comiket.

>>8335600
>>8335607
Is Higanbana a good read? I read a bit of the manga, but sort of forgot about it.

I've heard it involves no mysteries, and I do like R07 when it comes down to suspense and horror.

>>8335607
Oh shit, wonder if it gonna be another 8 long ep series. sadly we dont have anybody to translate these so fast anymore... I dont think witch hunt will do it..


>>8335614
If you like suspense and horror, you should like it.
how is second night so far to those who are reading it?

>>8335616
A while back he said that he was going to do Higanbana, then something else for a year while he worked out ideas for the next "Naku Koro ni". I guess he could have moved the timetable up if he was struck by inspiration though.

>>8335630
i bet his new inspiration is to make something awesome, then troll his fans again

>>8335630
Didn't he say he wanted to take a break from the "Naku koro ni" series for a while?

Given how much his fanbase disliked Umineko, I wouldn't be surprised if he wanted to give mystery a rest for some time.

>>8335616
Does anybody even have a working copy of 2nd Night at this point? I thought there was some kind of 2ch prank release with corrupted text that everyone got.

>>8335638
Yeah, I'm not sure when that was in relation to when he gave the timetable though.

>>8334424
Wait they did that again?

>>8335638
Hopefully he goes back to his old style or just hire someone who can actually draw cute girls.

The sprites in the Umineko fighter game looks great,get him.

and /jp/ says they're a intelligent board.
jesus christ, dont come into the thread if you dont know your facts, and stop asking questions.

>>8335668
MILF fucker obviously doesn't count.

Is it at all that Beatrice, the one Kinzo kept locked away, managed to survive? Or that Yasu might have somehow made her memories their own? Sort of like how Johan in Monster went insane because he mistakenly thought his sister's memories were his own.

>>8335712
I think is was more like Yasu was told at some point about her mother. So, by the time she had decided to become Beatrice, she had also decided to take up her predecessors.

DO NOT READ THIS MESSAGE!!!

I visited /bun/ for the first time last night before I went to bed. "Eh, looks interesting," I thought, and I made a post and bookmarked the site. Bad move. I woke up with my inbox full of spam. My YouTube and Facebook accounts were hacked. All of my Touhou folders were deleted except my Aya folder. And on top of that my dog "ruined" my carpet (still have a payment going for that) and pissed on my laptop. Repost this message in 5 other threads or Jones will ruin your life too. You have been warned.

>>8335736
That's what I mean. Like, someone told Yasu about what happened to Beatrice II, and it made them fucked up in the brain. I know it would certainly drive me insane. I think the Beatrice thing was kind of forced on them when they met Kinzo.

tl;dr
So many stupid questions.
>How did Tohya know about blabla?
He didn't. Ep7 and 8 are pure meta episodes and aren't written by in-universe writer Tohya. They are written by Creator witch Featherine which is a god of that universe, if you want. Or directly by Ryuukishi, if you prefer that interpretation.

>>8335769
Hmmm... That's not quite my interpretation.
The way I'm seeing it is that Yasu took part of her ancestors stories or traits to build Beatrice, probably just because she felt identified and not because she was broken or developed some vendetta.

Going by a meta-fiction point of view, Yasu simply wrote Beatrice in a way that she wasn't merely an idealised version of herself (well, which Clair pretty much is), but also Battler's idea of his desired woman and after she got to learn about her lineage, she also added traits of the other "Beatrices" to this Beatrice of hers.

So, she's compassing the legend of the witch, her own illusions, Battler's illusions, and some of the reality behind the legend of the witch (i.e. Bice and Beato II).

>>8335802
Actually, it could be Tohya, if we're talking about the Tohya+Ikuko combo and if we assume Ikuko=Yasu.

So, it doesn't have to come down to EP7 being pure meta.

>>8335817
Tohya doesn't write abything himself.
>if we assume Ikuko=Yasu
Have you even read ep8? I know people are used to unreliable narration, but it's not a mystery, so you can trust it.

>>8335824
I know the latter part is not a mystery, but that doesn't mean the Rokkenjima incident never happened and that Ikuko was one suspicious character.

That, coupled with how Beatrice wrote the stories in Our Confession and stuff like R07 saying Battler spent quite some time at sea, makes me think not all the stuff we saw at the end of EP8 is necessarily real.

>>8335824
I like the theory of Ikuko=Yasu simply because it means that even with brain damage Battler and Beatrice still end up together............

Not to mention that Yasu is one year older than Battler, so she should look about as old as than him, which is very old. But Ikuko looked "mysteriously young":
>`Though the woman who called herself Ikuko was far older than me, she seemed to be unbelievably youthful.`
>`It wasn't because she was good with makeup or dressed like a younger woman.`
>`It feels strange to say it...`
>`There was a strange mystique about her, ......as though she was immortal and never-aging.`

>>8335812
>and not because she was broken or developed some vendetta.

I guess I see it the way I do because I believe Yasu was broken in some way. Maybe not when she first started adding to the rumor that is Beatrice, but as she got older. Which would explain why Beatrice changed from a witch that played pranks on people, to a witch that killed people for fun.

>>8335910
Oh, I can agree to that. I just don't think Yasu had that in mind at first. I'm sure she broke later, though she still didn't necessarily looked for revenge, but probably developed some mentality in which the lives of people were nothing particularly special, and thus she carried on with her plans.

>>8335939
I think it's because they brought into the Golden Land crap. Lives didn't matter because everyone will revive in the Golden Land.

Although in regards to what occurred in real life, I think it was an internet tough guy situation. In the story, Yasu can write Beatrice-Yasu as this cold blooded killer, while real Yasu isn't able to do much of anything.

>>8335965
Yeah, well, she failed miserably so it's obvious. In real life there are too many things that can go wrong and screw the plans.

>>8335984
Can you really call it a failure when they never tried to begin with? Other than being all "life sucks, what the fucks between my legs?", did Yasu ever attempt anything other than ripping off Agatha Christie?

>>8335965
I really don't like to talk about the real Rokkenjima, since we possess little to no information about it.

Amongst the few things we do know is that the letter bottles and the letters with the money were arrange before October 4. That, and that the Rokkenjima incident did happen. Anything else is up to grabs.

Personally, I do think she tried to achieve some shit, but things went worse than what she expected and it ended up on everyone dying.

Though, I prefer to think Yasu did manage to calculate everything, and her whole purpose was to kill everyone and keep Battler. I'll take her being some amazing villain than some wishy-washy character.

>>8336007
That's one of the few good things about Umineko. Unless it is pants-on-head retarded, pretty much any scenario you think up has some truth to it. Like a choose your own adventure book.

>>8336038
To be honest, what happened in the real Rokkenjima is something I really would have liked to be able to know.

I mean, interpreting things can only be so much fun. I also wanted to know how accurate my interpretations were, instead of just the author telling me to write my own fanfiction.

>>8336080
Same here.

>>8336080
If you take Eva's account as truth, then they massacred one another. When the retarded offspring of rich people gather together in a secluded place, that tends to happen in fiction.

>>8334474
Mystery fucking solved.

>>8334471
>Also what do you guys think the story would of been like if bt never died?

Well, from that pic, it seems it, at least, wouldn't be such a mess.

>>8335802
I am pro-meta, but this chart is worse than people screaming that it's all a delusion and nothing ever happened.

>>8336199
Not really. There are only three options:
1) this chart, or specifically meta-to-our-reality connection, which is supported in game and in interviews
2) it's ALL, absolutely all, Tohya's fiction and we know little about real people, including Ange
3) there are plot holes everywhere and it doesn't make sense
Choose your poison.

>>8336180
>Well, from that pic, it seems it, at least, wouldn't be such a mess.
Reading comprehension. His friend told him that "there's never a correct time to set down one's pen", so the ending would have been open. At least now we have some closure.

>>8335870
Araki confirmed to be Ikuko.

George accidentally walked in on Shannon giving Battler head. In a fit of rage, after throwing up all over himself, he concocted a plan to kill everyone. This way, he would not only get revenge, but also get all the money. Then he could buy himself that harem that he always wanted. After searching the island, he came upon the bomb and learned about how it could be set. However, before he could carry out his his plan, he came upon a horrifying realization. HE was Shannon. It was all a delusion he came up with to deal with the fact that he had homosexual feelings towards his cousin. Thus, he allowed Eva and Battler to escape, performing one final act of kindness before setting the bomb to blow. The end.

>>8336280
>George accidentally walked in on Shannon giving Battler head
Or some Yasu x Jessica.

>>8336226
This chart breakes the "fantasy" of Umineko into kakera and "meta" which is lower in "realness" than imaginary realm of Yasu,
No, the sea of Kakera is just part of the meta-world.
How can kakeras be real, but the rest of the meta world not, when Bern, Lambda, Will etc live there, have their background info there, interact with characters there and so on.
Sorry, but no, I'm sticking with my worldview.

Also, people need to stop overthinking so much

>>8336241
Except it's completely the other way around, and maybe YOU should make some reading comprehension exercise.

>>8336347
The twist is Jessica is Yasu, and Yasu is Jessica.

>>8336381
and then the final scene reveals everyone was actually Kinzo

Ikuko is Ikuko's daughter.

Battler is doing the same as Kinzo.

Has this been posted yet?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NeaJodsSDNA#t=158s

デスデスデスデスデスデスデスデスデスデスデスデスデスデスデス­デスデ
スデスデスデスデスデスデスデスデスデスデスデスデスデス­デスデスデス
デスデスデスデスデスデスデスデスデスデスデスデス­デスデスデスデス
デスデスデスデスデスデスデスデスデスデスデス­デスデスデスデスデスデ
スデスデスデスデスデスデスデスデスデス­デスデスデスデスデスデスデス
デスデスデスデス

DIE　THE　DEATH

SENTENCE　TO　DEATH

GREAT　EQUALIZER　IS　THE　DEATH

>>8336468
Yes, and it's painful to listen to. Don't know why people like it. What I imagined in my head is better than that engrish.

>>8336458
Fuck, I actually lol'd

>>8335802
>The real world
>Kakeraverse
>Rokkenjima prime
Rokkejima prime (where the fuck did this stupid name come from anyway?) is the highest layer of Umineko. It's the continuity where Yasu wrote the messages in the bottles and Hachijo Tohya wrote the forgeries.

The kakeraverse is part of the fiction those two wrote together, people need to stop thinking in Higurashi terms.

As for the real world, surprise, every single work of fiction actually has the highest layer of an author. But there's no need to list that, it doesn't matter when you're detailing Umineko's world.

If you reference the part where Bern and Lambda are talking to each other at the end about meeting in the next WTC, that's just a bit of anomaly. It's just an extra that's not-so-canon to the Umineko cosmos. It simply means that Ryuukishi07 is going to have some kind of Rika/Takano expies in the next WTC, because he can't fucking resist. It doesn't really mean that Bern and Lambda as they exist as Umineko characters are above "Rokkenjima prime."

>>8336458
It makes sense; Battler himself said he liked to fool around with women.

>>8336468
surprise, it's shit

Ikuko is Ange. To protect her precious nii-nii, she pretended to be someone else, then became that personality after Battler's truths drove her insane. The Ange she meets is the Ange that's trying to reclaim their body, and their sanity.

Fucking Ryukishi. Magic end is a nice heartfelt epilogue for Battler, Beatrice and Ange. The trick end is just her shooting everybody.

The whole fucking point was to choose and deal with it but he made Trick feel like the wrong choice.

>>8336458
This makes sense in a way. Except he isn't doing what Kinzo did. She could be Ikuko's daughter, it doesn't mean he has to fuck that daughter. In fact, the reply with them not being married is pretty weird considering they've lived together all that time. If you consider that Tohya was romantic with Ikuko and fucked her, and now she's dead (or maybe alive but wanted to troll Ange with her daughter), and their daughter now looks after the aging Tohya, it makes sense.

When did they stop writing the forgeries anyway? Probably around the time of the diary incident, which would have been a long time ago.

>>8336505
Yeah, it's also an option which falls in the second of >>8336226 "It's all fiction and we don't know anything". Because there's some information that even Battler couldn't have known, like Ange's life (or even lives), full Kinzo's and Yasu's backstories.
Sorry, I'd rather believe in meta, in a sense, being partially real and those stories written by a higher being.

Also, Tohya-Featherine uses red text in supposedly "real world"-Rokkejima prime. But surely it doesn't mean anything, right.

>>8336550
That's the way it is in real life. The truth is shitty, but if you believe a lie or a delusion then life can seem like a pretty awesome place.

>>8336468
It's shit. Though in Ougon it's actually nice.

I'm just going to leave this here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m6F_4z-WG2k

>>8336505
Or you just can't bring yourself to admit that the story may not necessarily be what you already made up in your mind and what you so desperately cling to.

>>8336569
>Because there's some information that even Battler couldn't have known
This only matters if you assume Battler writes absolutely everything. Is it impossible for us to be shown backstory by the author, not through some other medium within the fiction?
>Also, Tohya-Featherine uses red text in supposedly "real world"-Rokkejima prime. But surely it doesn't mean anything, right.
It's Ryuukishi07 letting you know she isn't lying, simple as that. It confirms the diary exists in the real world and does tell the truth. If you compare this to the episode 7 tea party which opens with Eva-Beatrice's voice, this could be a hint that the tea party truth is basically the truth of things, just interpreted by Bern.

>>8336589
Or you just can't bring yourself to admit that the story may not necessarily be what you already made up in your mind and what you so desperately cling to.

>>8336569
>I'd rather believe in meta, in a sense, being partially real

You say it like it was something wrong

>>8336602
No, he's objecting to the other guy who's "hurr no magic exists at all"

>>8336592
>This only matters if you assume Battler writes absolutely everything. Is it impossible for us to be shown backstory by the author, not through some other medium within the fiction?
Then who writes ep7, for example? It's a gameboard, created by Bern. Bern and Lambda in turn are written by Featherine, Creator witch, with a close resemblance to R07.

>It confirms the diary exists in the real world and does tell the truth.
He could have said that in meta world, but he decided to say it in the (supposedly) real world to normal people there. We were told many times that red truth doesn't exist in real world, so that means that it's not a real world, but just another layer of fiction.

>>8336626
Magic not existing at all is still an option, why else would there be a trick end? If anything magic actually existing ruins everything, because everyone could have been magically saved anyway, and Beatrice may as well have been a real witch. It doesn't make much sense when magic has been built up to be only delusion throughout the whole series.

Bernkastel and Lambda, and later Featherine's magic is initially presented as different from this, but that is explained by the layer of the in-universe author, which Featherine's ultimate magic clearly amounts to in her Lambdadelta confrontation. In a way their magic is actually below the level of Ange's delusions, since at least those are delusions a real person is having, not falsehoods someone is writing down knowing them well to be false.

>>8336598
But I don't.
I never stated what I believe is true in Umineko as a fact (well, i never stated what I believe is true at all, for that matter), when the author himself stated everybody is welcomed to have their own interpretation.
Even if it feels way better than your disregarding 90% of the story as fiction and treating facts that doesn't match to your theory as either irrelevant or bullshit.

>>8336636
>Even if it feels way better than your disregarding 90% of the story as fiction and treating facts that doesn't match to your theory as either irrelevant or bullshit.
Not irrelevant or bullshit, but representative of something else, or hiding a meaning that isn't initially apparent. If we follow your logic we should take everything at face value because if we don't we're disregarding "facts." At that point you may as well not discuss how the Umineko world works at all, because the novel itself is the perfect explanation of everything, clear as day to anyone.

>>8336635
>because everyone could have been magically saved anyway
They could have been saved, but Battler in the end decided not to.

>>8336580
PS3 resource rip where.
Or at least an .iso. ;_;

>>8336657
That is just complete bullshit, he would have absolutely no motivation to do that. All he does is preserve their memory when they're already a lost cause.

The kakeraverse existing above Rokkenjima prime simply does not make sense considering Umineko's magic system. The strongest type of witch is a creator, essentially a god. What they choose to be real is real. The only creator we are introduced to in the story is Featherine, who is a self-insert of an author who exists in the Rokkenjima prime continuity. The "realm of the gods" episode 8 talks about that she returns from is the real world, where people can create universes on the level of the kakeraverse, because they can write fictions. Everyone there is a creator. Her power is clearly shown to be the manifestation of an author's power. I think the mistake people make, though, is saying she's a Ryuukishi07 self-insert. That's not exactly how it is, she's an Ikuko self-insert who resembles and references Ryuukishi07, but differs from him in other ways. This isn't particularly significant, anything an author writes often has real-world parallels, that doesn't mean he intends for the work to be a meta-fiction that includes an upper layer of the real world.

Since Bern and Lambda are inferior to Featherine, they can't exist above Rokkenjima prime.

>>8336673
Then how does Ikuko know Kinzo's and Yasu's backstories? She should know them, to make Featherine "order" Bern to create a gameboard where they are told.
Ikuko has no way of knowing them, while R07 does.

>>8336645
My logic isn't that everything should be taken at face value. It's that not every-fucking-thing must symbolize something.
And even if it symbolizes something, it doesn't necessarily mean it's all that there is to it.

I've always hated hardcore mysteryfags for whom every bit of every sentence must have perfect non-metaphysical explanation or else they feel threatened as if some witch was going to erase them from existance if their theory wasn't perfect.

>>8336551
Take this guy for example.
Making impossible straws just to think up something that fits the reality they know more.
And why?
Why?

What if...

the Battler Ange meets isn't really Battler. What if they're only calling themselves Battler?

What if,

Yasu survived, and wrote the stories? What if the whole series has been Yasu way of seeking redemption as both Battler and Yasu?

>>8336673
Or you are just seeing something that isn't there.

>>8336673
>That is just complete bullshit, he would have absolutely no motivation to do that.

He had the motivation during first 5 games, he lost it afterwards.

>>8336704
>I've always hated hardcore mysteryfags for whom every bit of every sentence must have perfect non-metaphysical explanation or else they feel threatened as if some witch was going to erase them from existance if their theory wasn't perfect.
And I've always hated hardcore fantasyfags who want magic to exist for real no matter what.

>>8336730
You talking about Meta-Battler, Meta-Battler wasn't a real person, he was a written character based on a real person (Tohya). The game is only with Meta-Battler saying he'll beat the witch and bring his family back, but this never made any sense, the method he would use to do that is never detailed. It was only a hook to explain his actions within the fiction. We were only told it because at that point, the reality of Tohya was a secret that wasn't even going to be hinted at for a long time.

>>8336735
Magic is real, we just call it science now.

>>8336735
Except magic existing doesn't hurt the mystery at all, but the hardcore mysteryfags need magic to cease existing at all cost, no matter what, no matter how, sure is the same thing.
Derp.
Some people take this series as much more serious business than they should

>>8336745
Blah blah. Sure, whatever.

>>8336766
It does hurt the mystery because it means the family could have been saved magically. Why all the business about protecting their memory and the cat-box when power exists that could bring them back, real for everyone?

It makes the mystery pointless. Who cares how anyone was killed? Death should mean nothing to magic.

>>8336745
>The game is only with Meta-Battler saying he'll beat the witch and bring his family back, but this never made any sense, the method he would use to do that is never detailed. It was only a hook to explain his actions within the fiction

>It doesn't fit my theory so it's irrelevant!

>>8336776
They could have survived in another kakera, that wouldn't erase the fact that they were killed in all the other kakeras.
No one suggested they were supposed to be resurrected with Beato's magic pipe, once killed, if that's what you were thinking.

>>8336787
>It doesn't allow the existence of magic so the interpretation must be wrong!
It really, really doesn't make sense. Weren't you wondering how the "I'll bring back my family!" thing was supposed to work in earlier episodes? It was clearly just a naive believe of the Meta-Battler character, even though he was at the same time arguing that people were really dead and magic doesn't really exist.

What are you trying to claim Meta-Battler is, now? Because we already know that he's a Tohya self-insert exploring what he remembers and what he can piece together later to try and figure out the truth of things. Are you denying that? It seems to be that you're acknowledging he's Tohya but at the same time saying he must have some kind of magical existence somehow beyond Tohya. That strikes me as far more inconsistent than anything I said.

>>8336730
Because he realized that "time is up". You had a dramatic scene with 約束 playing to help you understand that it's too late for everything and the best he could do know is cover the truth and protect it from malicious lie.

>>8336776
With a closed cat-box, it's possible that one outcome is "everyone survived but hid for years on end".

>>8336822
That's true, but for us, the catbox doesn't actually exist. It was already pried open. We see Ange look at Eva's diary, and the episode 7 tea party is probably also a reading of Eva's diary, and we have the red truth that applies to the real world. Since Eva's diary wasn't released in the Umineko world, and red text (such as the red text Tohya uses about the diary) doesn't exist for them since it's their human world, it's only still a catbox there.

So therefore the catbox is something that only exists in the Rokkenjima prime continuity. To us, Ryuukishi07 has portrayed a single truth (provided you can reason it out).

>>8336796
>>8336795
Also,

>What are you trying to claim Meta-Battler is, now? Because we already know that he's a Tohya self-insert exploring what he remembers and what he can piece together later to try and figure out the truth of things. Are you denying that? It seems to be that you're acknowledging he's Tohya but at the same time saying he must have some kind of magical existence somehow beyond Tohya.

Tohya "is" the Meta-Battler in a way that he has the connection to his memories (or was given them by Meta-Battler) He is at first amnesiac so he starts to write stories by which he gradually unlocks the memories. We only see things from his points of view, so for him there is only one truth, only "one" world, the one he lives in, but that doesn't mean all of the others are false.

It doesn't in any way contradict with mysteries and makes the story a lot less shallow.

>>8336874
I don't see how the story becomes shallow if Meta-Battler is simply a character written by Tohya to help him explore his past. The pain he felt learning about the truth slowly was still real, he was still coming to understand Beatrice's heart, it's just that he was doing it all too late. That's still very sad.

>>8336887
Because it denies existance of 90% of the cast and makes majority of what happened during the 4 years Umineko was on-going a fiction wiithing fiction within fiction.
This story isn't only about Battler, why throw every other character's background, interactions and a whole scenes through the window saying "that never happened"?

>>8336924
It's not "that never happened." It's "that didn't happen exactly as shown." Meta-Battler still parallels Tohya, because he was created by Tohya for that purpose.

>>8336933
Also, 90% of the cast? I wasn't aware the fantasy characters got that far out of control. Maybe 50%, or 60%. Even though it was fiction within fiction, it was done to explore the truth of real events. So it wasn't without meaning.

>>8336924
A story doesn't suddenly become meaningless when you add "Once upon a time, a man told the following story" to the beginning. It has all of its original meaning, plus now you can also learn something about the storyteller.

>>8336933
I'm not sure what you are reffering to.

If Tohya>Meta_Battler

Then regarding humans characters:

-whatever we are shown is just his vision enhanced with some tiny bits of how he remembered them as a child, so how they behave and interact with each other doesn't necessarily mean they were like this in reality
-all of the background info is just his guesswork
-the whole scenes might have as well never happened, making all of the character development irrelevant.

Regarding gameboards
-all that happened is again just a fiction. Sure, we previously knew that the gameboard is just a cover for what's actually happening, but we were also told, that pieces think and feel nontheless, so whatever happened to them and what they did was part of their character development.
-and about what really was happening on the gameboards: none of the mysteries, closed room murders, tricks and all what we've trying to figure out for months doesn't matter since it was only a proxy to make Battler remember something.

Regarding meta-world inhabitants:

-Basically they are in even worse position than human characters, because this theory assumes none of them exist at all, so naturally all of the information we've been given about them and all of the character development we've been experiencing doesn't matter at all.

All in all, accepting that it's just throwing almost everything in the trash can

If Meta-Battler>Tohya

Then all of the above is real and Tohya-amnesiac writer can still exist just as well.

I'd rather pick the story and characters.

>>8336995
>A story doesn't suddenly become meaningless when you add "Once upon a time, a man told the following story" to the beginning.

But it does when you add this at the end of the story, though, like it's supposedly done here.

I'm interested in this franchise. Care to explain the basic knowledgement regarding the VNs, translation groups, release dates, if the story is finished, fanworks and other shit?

>>8337149
Spoonfeeding is bad for your health.

>>8337149
It's finished and translated. Google torrents\ddl for the games.
Translation patches:
http://witch-hunt.com/links.html

>>8337168
I'm not asking for links, sauce or names. I only want a brief explanation of the status quo of this franchise.

>>8337216
Thanks.

I think the fanbase would benefit from understanding there is such thing as... I don't know how to call it. "Intrinsic inconsistency", maybe?

There are times when an author contradicts himself a bit. His readers then point that out, and it becomes known as a 'plothole' or something similar.
But Umineko is beyond that level. It doesn't necessarily contradict itself, but it has such a degree of complexity, it's broken at a scale big enough that, say, even the little brother of a Laplace's Demon, which could instantly process every single fact, line, and implication, at every single possible degree of interpretation, wouldn't be able to solve it.

It is fun thinking about this novel. I have been doing that since years ago. I enjoy reading these threads. Umineko is the funniest, most emotional text I have ever read (hint: subjective). But nobody should believe they are closer to the truth than anybody else, because this isn't a hard to solve equation. This is an equation with no solution. It is intrinsically inconsistent.

>>8337047
I prefer the "it's fiction within fiction" explanation to a universe where Heaven has entire departments whose purpose is to ensure mystery stories adhere to rules written by early 20th century mystery authors.

>>8337602
And what's wrong in that? Pff...

All I know for sure is that after ep3 the whole plot and story went downhill. It was just a a lot battler actually being a mc and also dening everything.

Well I read the Confessions packet... and all i have to say is.. Is that it? He's not releasing anything else? It was nice of him to explain how he could set up the closed room mysteries and how there's way more people in on the crime than originally thought.

But trying to link Kanon and Shanon to Beatrice as one person is still convoluted. Everyone is covered in make-up but how does she leave behind full corpses to call the dead Kanon and Shanon?

I dunno, I'm still not satisfied when looking at it as a mystery. But when I just treat it as a fantasy I feel more content with what it is.

>>8337842
I thought it explained it pretty well. Kannon or Shannon plays dead and is proclaimed dead by one of his assistants, then the corpse disappears. After that Yasu kills himself for real, leaving an actual corpse. The explosion takes out any survivors.

>>8337818

Well, not to say the series didn't go lackluster after the question arc, but the magic battles and the whole "Erika as a bitch pseudotagonist" thing did have their merits. Granted, Ep. 6 on really went overboard with that whole "hurr u no love u no see" schtick, but overall the good parts in those did sort of counterbalance the lack of Beatroll vs. The incompetent.

>>8337855
So Yasu ending Shanon's existence in the chapel also marks the point of Yasu committing suicide herself? In that case I guess it's more viable but... shit man. There is no way I would have gotten any of this in those 4 episodes.

>>8337862
>endlesssommelier.png
Bwahahaha.

>>8337865
Right. It's basically the same thing Yasu did in EP2 in Natsuhi's room, just with the location changed.

>>8337923
I see..... With that chart and this reasoning I guess I really can accept the mystery as it is.

But even if Meta Battler is a farce, he lives on in the cat box of my heart ( ；∀；)

>>8337865
>>8337923
but why would yasu actaully kill herself? Why would the people continue to kill after yasu dead?

>>8338052
Because Yasu is insane. He has a huge amount of self-loathing for being forced to live with a mutilated body. Once he starts murdering people there's no turning back. And people don't have to kill after Yasu is dead for everyone to die. The explosion will take care of them.

>>8338052
I would really need a chart to try and discuss that topic because I can't recall in all of the games who was alive and dead at what points.

It's to be noted though that Yasu set up the games for people to be dead in advanced parts of the game via her accomplices the servants and Kraus + Natsuhi. Since Yasu ends herself she doesn't need to care about the other people on the island and just lets the bomb clear everyone else out.

I still don't think the red text had any real meaning. Hear me out here.

It's said fairly early on that red text doesn't exist in the human world. Yet, the witches use red text that applies outside of the gameboard.

This kind of keys in to people talking about how Battler knew this and that, and how that figured in to the game.

Witches can't know everything about the world when they build their gameboards. There are always imperfections, like a computer simulation, things they get wrong. They have an incomplete model of the world they use to create their gameboard.

Witches can't use red text in the human world directly since not everything is knowable. Some things are always uncertain. They can make it according to the model they're using(i.e. for every game). The model is based on absolute evidence or eye witness information where that is not available.

There's no way to take red text like "You will never see Battler again" "all your family died", etc. seriously. They are not worthless since they state something to be highly probable, but they can't be known for sure. We haven't seen definite proof of any of it, and Tohya himself says he feels like he could wake up at any minute and Battler would take over again.

This is how you resolve the problem of needing to reject some of the red text without (importantly allows for the possibility Tohya "is" Battler but can't deal with the crime) invalidating red text in general.

Besides, we should have learned by now when we see red text to ask what gameboard it applies to.

>>8338124
The individual games are literally made up. As a result their author can speak in absolutes, since he came up with the story and knows everything that happens in it. Red text works fine since the author is omniscient.

>>8338124
I feel like they touched on the useless nature of red text in episode 8 with the mock deduction.

Rather you really do just have to suspect everyone and try to cross out people that couldn't possibly be the murderer(s).

>>8338140

Only the author of games 3-7. 8 was let play out. The author can't literally claim godhood over real-life.

>>8338097
>Kraus + Natsuhi
It could be anyone of the parents.

>>8338197
What real life? Witches are written by Featherine, who is basically a god and knows everything.

I feel like r07 could have moved the eps with more explations and less confusion. The way how he just moved to the next ep always felt random and had no backtrack to the what happened in the last ep and how the meta/real world thought of it.

>>8338456

did you even read umineko? really..

>>8338124
>Witches can't know everything about the world when they build their gameboards.

Of course they can. Just like a D&D gamesmaster.

And let me point out something else too: you can speak in absolutes in real life and be completely correct. For example, if you know how the murder happened, you can make definite statements about how it _didn't_ happen.

>>8338397
Agreed. Ryukishi outright says that in episode 1 there's no corpse of Shannon in the shed and Hideyoshi is lying to George. Therefore Hideyoshi is playing the p
art that Krauss and Natsushi have in Our Confessions.

Though I should say that a "real world" does exist, which is the one Ikuko and Tohya live in.

>>8338197
But r07 wrote that and he definitely can claim godhood over his characters. Surely you caught that Featherine was his self insert and Bern and Lambda derive their authority from her.

>>8336468

Wow, that is the worst most horrible shitty piece of fuck ever.

>>8338492
Featherine is a representation of Ikuko, which is a character in the story despite acting as Ryukishi's mouthpiece.

>>8338491
I thought Krauss and Natsushi could never be the killers because of them being pure and moe?

>>8338557
What about >>8336628>>8336694

>>8338572
Well, they aren't killers, just liars and accomplices.

>>8338572
They don't kill anyone. They simply help Yasu with his deception in exchange for their and Jessica's life and the 10 tons of gold. (Of course Yasu doesn't plan to deliver but they don't know that.)

>>8338578
We don't even know if they're at all accurate. The truth may well have been that Kinzo stole the gold and that Yasu had much more hatred and self-loathing. Ikuko could have done research on Kinzo's and Yasu's background to get some general information, and Battler might have actually learned information about them in the real world that he doesn't in the stories.

>>8338606
Not the Anon you're referring to but thanks for clearing up that submarine scene, never understood it.

>>8338606
Why was that never brought up again with kinzo stealing the gold? I really wanted to see the truth of that and how he pulled it off.

>>8338606
why would battler write about kinzo "maybe" stealing the gold in his story anyway.Every time you see something thats the total opposite of what going on.. why would he add that?

>>8338622
I guess he managed to get the Japanese and Italians to kill one another and then finished off the survivors. What really happened died with him of course.

So basically, meta-Yasu/Beatrice set up an intricate murder-suicide.

Except everything after the first two episodes of the series is written by Battler and Author Bitch. So, in the end, none of the mysteries, or the "truths" revealed, really matter because none of it's real. It's just Battler trying to work out his messed up memories. And we can't even be sure if the motives for Yasu is legit because how the hell can Battler know meta-Yasu's reasons for doing what they did?

In other words, r07, didn't really think this through. It's too easy to poke holes through everything he claims.

>>8338606
Would they be able to find information on Yasu? I don't think Yasu was known by that many people aside from the other servants.

>>8338661
Well yeah, i guess thats really all too it.
Its really too bad he wasn't just a fucking mystery with just the adults children and just stuck with one fucking universe instead of 3 confusing ones.

>>8338606
What about red truth in "real" world?

>>8338661
>none of the mysteries, or the "truths" revealed, really matter because none of it's real
Umineko is a fiction, a sound novel, what a surprise. So it doesn't matter, because it's not real.
>how the hell can Battler know meta-Yasu's reasons for doing what they did
Because you can solve the mystery after 2 episodes, find the heart of Beatrice and create almost any tale while following its rules.

I don't think you're quite getting it. The "Games Master" role only applies within the realm of the story itself when one of the witches is writing it - not for what happens to Ange after everything is said and done. Red truth was made outside of the realm of where it applies. Therefore, it only ever really applied to the scope of the gameboard. It's misleading, and is the kind of simple trick we were taught to look out for.

>>8336628
>We were told many times that red truth doesn't exist in real world, so that means that it's not a real world, but just another layer of fiction.
Yes. Because Umineko is a fictional work, you know.

On a higher level, the red has nothing to do with witches. It's a direct statement from the author about what is true. The people witnessing Ikuko did not perceive her text as red and therefore absolute truth. This is Ryukishi07 telling YOU that the diary is real.

Ironic, when the red is supposed to be a required rule and representative of the trust that must exist between author and reader, that the very fact the red is being used here is, to you, an indication that it is actually false.

>>8338713

The difference is that Umineko isn't even real within its own context. It flaunts its made-up nature at every turn as a way to avoid admitting what's really going on: shitty writing.

If the story isn't true even in its own context, why in the world should anyone care about it? Why should anybody give a shit about what "really" happened in episodes 1-4 if none of it happened at all, even within the world of the story? There is no reason to give a shit anymore.

So what was the golden truth anyway.

>>8338767
>Ironic, when the red is supposed to be a required rule and representative of the trust that must exist between author and reader, that the very fact the red is being used here is, to you, an indication that it is actually false.

That's because ALL text should have the power of the red text for such trust to be possible. The very existence of red text signifies that the author is a lying scumbag undeserving of trust.

>>8338767
There is absolutely NO reason to use it in the real world and by character who is supposedly human, while talking to other humans in their own universe's "real world".
If he was addressing us, readers, he could have done it in meta world, like always.

>>8338831
Does the existence of what Agatha Christie tells you for certain in And Then There Were None prove she is a lying scumbag of an author?

No, she just wants to give you a foothold to reason with, to guide you closer to the right path of reasoning. The same goes for R07. If there was no red you'd just doubt absolutely everything he says anyway, what the hell do you expect from a mystery novel?

I always thought that the red truth in the real world was just Ikuko giving some explanation that the book had the real truth in it and we got that red statement as a representation.

>>8338836
>If he was addressing us, readers, he could have done it in meta world, like always.
Hilarious. If he did in the meta-world you'd say that it was written by Tohya so it wasn't real either, if you really wanted to.

>>8338815
>Why should anybody give a shit about what "really" happened in episodes 1-4 if none of it happened at all, even within the world of the story?
Because Yasu really happened in the real Rokkenjima of Umineko and those fictions are keys to solving her mystery and understanding her motives.

>>8338842

The Christie comparison gets thrown around a lot, but you know what the big difference between her and R07 is (besides that she can actually cook up a mystery worth shit)? The NARRATOR in ATTWN NEVER LIES. Only the characters may lie, never ever the narration.

>>8338849
Where did I say that the diary isn't real? Do you even understand what I'm arguing for?
Hint: it's not about credibility of red truth.

>>8338848
I see it as her showing how confident she is that it's the truth. They ask whether it's true or not, she reaffirms that it is very forcefully. The people in the real world can still doubt her, in fact we are told that people still thought it was just some stunt she pulled and there was never any real truth to it.

But we are told, as readers, that the diary has the truth, by him making the letters red. That only has meaning to us, it doesn't have meaning to the world she said it in.

>>8338856
>>solving her mystery
Why should we fucking bother when we are given NO REAL INFORMATION OF ANY FUCKING KIND?

>and understanding her motives.
Her "motive" is that she's crazy. That's the entire sum of it.

Fantastic fucking writing.

>>8338862
>Where did I say that the diary isn't real? Do you even understand what I'm arguing for?
Apparently not. Why don't you tell me?

Because as long as you accept that what is written in that diary is the truth of what really happened on Rokkenjima, I have no issue with you.

>>8338858
Are you upset that the narration lies when the narration was, even from episode 1, talking about golden butterflies? It's not like it's surprising.

>>8338867
Hey, you don't know she's crazy. We're given no real information of any fucking kind, after all. Her motive could be anything.

Personally, I think Yasu's motive is gold. She never actually solved the epitaph, but Battler did, and she wants to scare him into telling her where the gold is.

>>8338877

It isn't a matter of being upset, it's that there is no reason to ever trust anything R07 writes in Umineko. He gives no definite information and therefore his "mystery" would be worthless even if it wasn't based on a retarded DID Meido plot point, didn't break its own rules constantly, and wasn't at least two or three more layers of fictional than it has any need to be.

Umineko is actually extremely fascinating in how terrible and without merit it is.

>>8338908
>I didn't like it so it must be terrible

ITT people who can't trust the author and don't have love and therefore can't solve the mystery

Come on people, it may be convoluted, but the point is that you're given absolute truths, you need to deduce the rules from what you're given, and then figure out the motive and methods.