/jp/ - Otaku Culture

See that? Now imagine what Shiki could do.

All the writing points to the contrary of one arbitrary quote from a drunken author.

Let's get this shit started

>strongest servant

Saber is a moralfag and slowed down to make it a fair fight

>>8141425

That means strongest CLASS, not specifically that Arthuria is the strongest servant. lrn2context

>>8141416
Kuzuki was fast, albeit not as fast as Servants, but sort of close. Also, Kuzuki wasn't good enough to fight Servants, he was just unpredictable to the point that he could do one move on them one time.

Shirou, is also superhuman by that point in UBW, siphoning Archer's skills and memories.

Caster was enchanting his body to do fight Servants like that

Its said that Kuzuki could have been beaten easily if the Servant knew about his fighting style.

Same way Shirou beat the motherfucking King of Heroes.

>>8141492

... why would you need to know the fighting style if you can just cut his fucking head off with one swing?

He tired Saber out with blunt attacks.

And i dont think She would kill a person

Face it, Kuzuki is Adult Shiki

>>8141528
Shiki can already do much more than him.
In fact, he surpasses Kuzuki with zero enhancements, purely on natural ability.

Well same how Shirou could defeat archer/dark Berseker/dark Saber, or how Kirei powned true assasin.

>>8141871
Servants are fucking overrated.

Kuzuki's style made him initially unpredictable what with attacks coming from wrong angles, and there was the whole thing about catching the invisible Excalibur between his elbow and knee or someshit.
But after that first initial encounter he'd be raped by basically any Servant as they'd see through his style.

>>8141874
They may have super powers, incredible strength, and abilities that defy reality, but as long as they take the form of a human being, they still follow the same rules as a human being. Die when killed, etc.

Sure, Shiki could probably kill a servant. Even if it doesn't have a concept of 'death', it still 'exists' and therefore contains the possibility of an end (EVERYTHING comes to an end at some point, though Shiki's ability to comprehend that end is not unlimited). If Shirou could Shiki sure as hell can. It's just a matter of the servant LETTING him. Nobody in their right mind would get within 10 feet of Shiki once they knew what his power was, and most servants have some means of attacking at a range. Game, set.

TYPE MOON POWER LEVEL THREAD??

>>8141903
It's not about them letting Shiki near them, they won't feel his presence at all.
Arcueid couldn't even feel any killing intent until the knife had already cut her in pieces.
That's some Assassin class presence concealment.

Because fights dun work like your Yugi-oh card games where you just compare the attack points or defense points.

>>8141916
You compare each combatants one-hit kill abilities

>>8141528

Kuzuki doesn't have Shiki's swag though.

>>8141944

Saber uses a style comprised of strength, agility and prediction. Kuzuki's style turns the third feature of her style against her. When she dodges his attack, she actually falls for his trap.

>>8141945
Where did that "swag" shit meme come from, anyways?

>>8141960
#based

>>8141970
some IRC faggotry channel? figures

>>8142001
Anonymous...

>>8141970
#based is a popular Twitter hashtag that is most commonly used by fans of the hip-hop artist ``Little B''. There are a lot of his fans on there.

https://twitter.com/#!/search/realtime/%23based

>>8141416
Except that Caster's magic also massively increased his speed, as well as his strength, and gave him the ability to harm creatures vulnerable to magical attacks. It's obvious by the fact after Caster dies and Kuzuki fights Archer. Archer has absolutely no difficulty dodging Kuzuki's attack and then proceeds to carve him up like a turkey.

>>8146384

protip: absolutely nowhere do they say that in the actual game. All they say is that Caster "reinforced his hands".

>>8146427
Reinforcement magic doesn't just make someone stronger; it improves all attributes, including speed.

>>8146427
In essence the "strengthening"/"reinforcement" or whatever you want to translate it as, could in a more crude, but a lot more accurate way be described as, "make a whole lot more useful".

But you know, the old greeks did this too. Enchanted shoes that makes you able to run better, despite of how improved feet alone can't have such effects.

Saber isn't all that great of a servant in head to head combat. Archer, the weakest, is just two ranks below in strength. Being lawful good, she won't kill Kuzuki either, on top of that Shirou is a piss poor master.

Saber really shines when she can wield Excalibur freely.

>>8141416
Shirou with Tracing, allows him to use the weapons that got traced at Servant speed and power because they also copy the skills/strengths of the original hero that wielded it.

>>8146479
Strength stat isn't what truly determines how well you fight up close, though. It falls down to one's agility, luck, and every other ability on the list. Strength barely factors in if the strong guy can't hit you.

>>8146480
Tracing does that? Doesn't it just make shit versions of weapons?

>>8146498
It does both. Make shit versions and allows the user to gain the attributes necessary to wield said weapon like its original owner can.

That said, there is one thing I'm quite unsure of. If there is any difference between Tracing during Fate/UBW/HF/Archer. I've heard people make the claim before, but this is something I'm not sure if I should believe.

>>8146522
Not really no. Other than how he is inexperienced in the matter all throughout Fate, never masters it but becomes notably great at it in UBW, masters it indirectly but does not understand it in HF, and how Archer simply have mastered it.

Archer can do everything Shirou did, he just doesn't do it all the time as it shows. Nine Lives Blade Works for instance is supposedly a great waste of both magical power, physical power, comes at great strain, and fucks up the body etc.
Archer likely would have used overedge or something else entirely.

>>8146539
So basically, you're saying that even in Fate, Shirou could still basically be as fast and as strong as Servants as long as he traced their weapons?

>not tracing Lancer's Gay Bulge to be 3x faster
Stop doing this.

>>8146563
So that explains how he was able to see Dark Saber's movements, because he got boosted to C Agility while Dark Saber had D Agility.

>>8141936

You're not supposed to just look at their One-Hit kill abilities either. After all if it worked like that Arturia would have destroyed quite a number of opponents in FSN and Zero with ease.

Call it plot convenience/annoyance if you want but Servant fights are not utterly reliant on who has the most ridiculously effective boom. Its about strategy and back up too.

>>8146577
Does it really work like that? I know like how with Excalibur, he can't trace it, he can just trace a crap version of it that looks like Excalibur, it not having the same power as Excalibur at all.

>>8146563
No. In Fate Shirou wasn't good at tracing/projection at all. The only blades he even did was images directly imprinted into him by either avalon or Saber.

Also, strengthening and tracing isn't the same thing.
The whole "Faker" thing is basically divided into three categories.

>>8146592
But then, how could he even match Servants like Gilgamesh in speed if he didn't get any power boosts from tracing NPs? Didn't he get enough strength from wielding NLBW against Berserker in HF?

>>8146585
>I know like how with Excalibur, he can't trace it, he can just trace a crap version of it that looks like Excalibur, it not having the same power as Excalibur at all.
That's wrong you know.
Shirou can only trace what he knows, he can't create from nothing.
He doesn't trace a sword that look like Excalibur, it's impossible for him, he traces Excalibur with a rank down.

>1 hit kills
Lancer would basically kill everyone if it was just based on 1 hit kills, except Arturia and Gilgamesh.

>>8146608
He can't trace Excalibur and Ea.

>>8146608
Nasu said he couldn't trace Excalibur.

>>8146615
>>8146614
Nasu is just bullshiting and backpedaling
Shirou traces Excalibur in HF, Archer states that he can trace it in UBW
That's facts.

Shirou CAN'T create something from nothing, he can't create a sword that look like but isn't Excalibur.
His power is the ability to take swords that already exist in UBW, that's all.
He can also use reinforcement and tracing at a low level but that's inconsequential.

>>8141908
That's weird. How can someone with so much physical ability (for a human) and power be basically undetectable?

>>8146620
It's not actually bullshitting if what he traces isn't exactly Excalibur. Archer also said he can make something almost like Excalibur, not exactly Excalibur itself.

I reread FSN not long ago.
It's amazing how crappy the fights scenes were, short and unsatisfying with basically no tactical elements.
I guess when I read it the first time I was impressed by the special effects and the novelty.

>>8146622
It's the same way I felt when I rewatched Gundam Wing. The only good part about it was Treize.

>>8146601
In UBW he had already siphoned skills and knowledge from the direct link with Archer.
In HF the arm did everything.

Tracing can however force his body to strengthen itself. One requires a certain level of skill to read the meta data of a traced object though, as in an object's history/experience/skills.

Rin for instance knew how to project things, but to access meta data was a foreign concept to her.

>>8146621
It's not like Shiki activates a whole lot of magic circuits when he goes on his killing runs.

>>8146624
He said it couldn't be perfectly reproduced.

>>8146624
Again that's not how Shirou/Archer's power work.
He can't do that, he can only create what he knows.

Oh and UBW Archer says: "I shall reproduce that holy sword of yours"
He states after that that it won't be of the same rank but that's how his power work.
He can trace Excalibur with a rank down, that's all

>>8146634
Which is why it's not Excalibur that he made. Everything else he makes are perfect reproductions. They just get a rank down since they are reproductions. (remember, he never says everything else that he makes aren't perfectly reproduced, he only says this about Excalibur). The Excalibur he makes is not Excalibur at all because he can't reproduce it properly. Which is why he can't exactly trace Excalibur.

And don't say Shirou actually could trace it in HF. All he has is Archer's arm, the same dude who could reproduce Excalibur, albeit a faulty reproduction of it.

>>8146639
But then, that's not really Excalibur that he has in his hands. Besides, even if you say bullshitting, it's Nasu who says that he can't reproduce Excalibur (along with Ea). If he says what Archer can make aren't really Excaliburs, then that just makes your entire argument a moot point.

>>8146642
It's stated in the fucking status screen that the swords in UBW have a rank down.
And he doesn't say that only Excalibur can't be traced perfectly, he says "a sword of this rank".

And I'm repeating myself but that's not how his power works.
He can only trace the swords found in UBW, swords that he saw and "archived", he can't fucking create a "sword who look like Excalibur but isn't".
His power is very clearly defined in FSN again and again and again.

>>8146654
>"a sword of this rank".
Then doesn't that even make your argument less strong? Because it means that all swords of Excalibur's class and up can never be properly reproduced by Archer. Meaning that he can never truly make those swords.

>>8146653
Nasu said a lot of things that make no sense of contradicts each other.
Shirou's power is clearly defined in FSN, what you are saying completely change it and basically fuck up everything about how UBW works.

>>8146654
What if he saw a sword that looked like Excalibur before and was just a weaker version?

So why do people have some kind of fixation of type moon and "powerlevels" when it all devolves into mechanics and meta like this? This even started out as a powerlevel thread and diverged into something else.

/tg/ tends to be the same, perhaps naturally to them given how they try to reproduce the mechanics in their games.

>>8146658
Again, the rank down is normal.
The sword traced is Excalibur, just not as strong as the original Excalibur.
Because it's a fake, it's normal, again it's something repeated ad nauseam in the game.

>>8146659
>clearly defined in FSN
Shiki's power of killing everything is clearly defined in Tsukihime. Look at what happened. Nasu's words take precedence over whatever the fuck you think is written in FSN. If he says they can never trace Excalibur, they could never trace Excalibur.

>>8146660
Shirou in HF clearly says that he is tracing the "black sword of Black Saber".
Not a look alike, same for Archer, he clearly states that he can trace Saber's holy sword.

>>8146667
Unfortunately Shirou tracing Excalibur is a big plot point in the normal ending of HF so that's not something that can be made as "never happened".

>>8146667
Does it really matter when he can reproduce something close enough that would most likely kill both participants if clashed against the actual Excalibur?

>>8146671
Yeah. But Shiki's being able to kill everything is also a big plot point in just about every route in Tsukihime, but Nasu said otherwise.

>>8146676
We're not even sure if that's merely bluster or the actual ability of what he can make.

At the very least it could destroy the large grail. So for all we know it could be true.
Saber, also seemed to get the impression of Archer being serious enough for her to not dare take any chances.

>>8146667
>If he says they can never trace Excalibur, they could never trace Excalibur.
>can't accept it
Mongrel faker lovers. Selective picking of what Nasu says or not says surely shows your lowborn attitudes.

>>8146678
Except that even in the VN Shiki can't kill everything. E.g. he can see lines on Arc but can't see a dot on her. And at night she barely has any lines at all.

this guy can kill servants

>>8147317
He saw some lines at her at the hotel.

Doesn't matter anyway because he can just kill Gaia's local influence to make her weaker so he can see her lines

>>8147363
He still couldn't see her dot.

>>8146662

If it's the same for every sword, why bother bringing it up that he can't reproduce it perfectly due to its high rank?

UBW's rank down does not come from imperfect reproductions of high rank swords. It comes from the fact that it is an imitation, no way around it.

>>8146664
>>8146671

He was still using Archer's arm for the projection in the first place. If Archer can't do it, Shirou can't do it.

>>8146704

He says straight out he can't make divine constructs like Excalibur (forged by the world) or Ea (forged outside of the world).

There's no vagueness or anything. Just because it wasn't clear in the original VN doesn't mean you can claim Death of the Author.

>>8147317
The point of the matter is that the setting is that Shiki can kill anything because everything has an end. The VN just showed you that Shiki will have to be creative to see the end to anything, not that it has actual limits in what it can kill.

>>8147363
>Doesn't matter anyway because he can just kill Gaia's local influence to make her weaker so he can see her lines
Uh, no.

>>8147408

Actually that's accurate. He has to kill a section of the world itself, but that's what he does in Ciel's route. It pushes him to his limit and he collapses basically immediately after he dos it, but he says he sees lines all over Arc once he does.

>>8147408
>uh, no
So you skipped Ciel's route. I understand, because shit.

>>8147398
>If it's the same for every sword, why bother bringing it up that he can't reproduce it perfectly due to its high rank?
Because it wasn't clear for Saber and Rin?
And higher ranked swords are probably harder to replicate.

And if only Excalibur was a special case why did Archer say "a sword of this rank", that imply that it's not the way it was made that is a problem but simply the rank.

And again Archer/Shirou can replicate what they don't know, THEY CAN'T CREATE A SWORD WHO IS CLOSE BUT ISN'T EXCALIBUR.
That's not how UBW works, it's something that is repeated dozens of time.
Their true power is UBW alone, a world that archive weapons. That's all.

>>8147413
But it's not Excalibur. Nasu said so. Whatever he made, it was not Excalibur.

>>8147411
oh shiki u

>>8147418
And again something like this is impossible given what we know of Shirou's power;
We are going in circle there

So it's either completely ignoring a big part of the game or thinking that Nasu just spoke out of his ass as usual.

>>8147420
Again, you do not have one hundred percent knowledge of how his power works. Shiki's eyes of death was said to be able to kill anything, then it got limited as fuck after the game was published. Nasu said so after this game was made, so whatever the fuck that was, it sure wasn't Excalibur. It's either that, or it lacks the next oomph that makes Excalibur Excalibur.

>>8147413

>Because it wasn't clear for Saber and Rin?

As if he cared.

>And higher ranked swords are probably harder to replicate.

Unlikely. If it gets Traced, it can be made perfectly depending on how well Shirou's image of it is. Since Excalibur can't be made perfectly, I'm going to say it can't be Traced.

>And if only Excalibur was a special case why did Archer say "a sword of this rank", that imply that it's not the way it was made that is a problem but simply the rank.

Or, he could mean the rank of "divine weaponry" that Nasu's clarified that he can't reproduce perfectly. See? It meshes perfectly.

>And again Archer/Shirou can replicate what they don't know, THEY CAN'T CREATE A SWORD WHO IS CLOSE BUT ISN'T EXCALIBUR.
>That's not how UBW works, it's something that is repeated dozens of time.

So? Shirou never traces a sword we've never seen, and we have no way of quantifying what swords Archer has seen. He's a Servant from beyond time.
Nasu said immediately after being unable to Trace divine armament, that "there may be NPs with similar function in stock".

>Their true power is UBW alone, a world that archive weapons. That's all.

We have no idea what Archer has and hasn't archived.
Hell, Archer's arm traced Black false-Excalibur when Archer never saw Black Saber at all.
And before you say Shirou traced it, also remember that Shirou never saw Caladbolg II, but is capable of using it through Archer's arm. It's Archer doing the Tracing, it's Archer's knowledge of the swords.

>>8147420

>And again something like this is impossible given what we know of Shirou's power;

You mean how it's never been clearly said that he makes Excalibur?

You're just bitching and claiming death of the author over an insignificant issue. It doesn't turn canon on its head, and it doesn't even fucking matter if he Traces a perfect Excalibur or a false-clone "Excalibur" to the story AT ALL.

>>8147424
>Again, you do not have one hundred percent knowledge of how his power works.
Yes we do, a very huge portion of the game is focused on how it works.
Creating something from nothing, especially not something that is almost as powerful as Excalibur, is impossible for Shirou.
At most his tracing can create some frail junk which is what can be found in his shed.
It's repeated a lot that his only real power is UBW.
And UBW has NOTHING to do with creating from nothing, it's simply a world that archive weapons that Shirou saw and allow him to take them out in the real world.

That's how it is in the game, saying that Archer/Shirou can create a sword that is close but isn't Excalibur is therefore completely retarded and completely miss the point of his power.

>>8147431
>Nasu said immediately after being unable to Trace divine armament, that "there may be NPs with similar function in stock".
I'm not going to disagree with you. I'd like source on this however.

>>8147433
You do not understand how UBW actually works 100 percent. You simply don't. Nasu said whatever he made wasn't Excalibur. That alone completely stops the argument. Whatever he made was never Excalibur.

>>8147431
Archer saw Dark Saber and her sword though

>>8147433

Q: What is the limit of replication in UBW? The higest level of NP (sword types) is probably Ea, but while it might be impsosible for Shirou, could Archer make it? Also, under the meaning of weapons, to what extent can he make modern weapons? Must it be only blade types or can he make guns and mobile weapons?
A: Replication of divine constructs like Ea and Excalibur is impossible. There might be some degraded NPs with similar performance in stock though. Also, since sword is becoming his origin, the weapons that he has stored are fundamentally limited to close combat.


Shirou never traces Excalibur. Archer may have similar performance weapons in stock. Archer claims to be able to match the Holy Sword, but he's been shown to be a liar and a bluff sometimes. When Shirou traces it, he is dead on his feet and using Archer's arm to do it anyway.

Case closed. The vagueness is shrouded enough that you cannot say he perfectly reproduced Excalibur ever, and thus you have to trust Archer on his word, and assume that he was telling the complete truth and not simply simplifying or bluffing.

>>8147435

Fate/complete material III - World Material

http://completematerial.pbworks.com/w/page/34267021/Frequently-Asked-Questions
It's down in the Noble Phantasms part of the FAQ.

>>8147442
>A: Replication of divine constructs like Ea and Excalibur is impossible. There might be some degraded NPs with similar performance in stock though. Also, since sword is becoming his origin, the weapons that he has stored are fundamentally limited to close combat.
Is this from Comptiq 9 or from the other magazines? Anyway, this should blow out the "can trace Excalibur" people.

>>8147445
More like it just shows that Nasu keep talking out of his ass.
Honestly I'm starting to think that he got some "help" to write this considering how inconsistent he is with everything.
Archer says he can trace Excalibur in UBW, Shirou says the same thing in HF, before the final battle he says he will trace Excalibur to destroy the grail, and does it in the normal end.

That's what is stated in the game, everything else is just backpedaling.

>>8147442
>Shirou never traces Excalibur
What about the HF normal end then?

>>8147454

Did you forget something about his left arm?

>>8147450

>Archer says he can trace Excalibur in UBW,

Imperfect/bluffing/simplifying

>Shirou says the same thing in HF, before the final battle he says he will trace Excalibur to destroy the grail,

It never says "Excalibur" by name, just "that black sword" and "the strongest noble phantasm I know of"

>and does it in the normal end.

Vis-a-vis Archer's arm.


It's all vague and you don't have any proof he perfectly did it anyway. Thus, what Nasu says is what goes.

>Altria after being defeated by Hasan in the HF route
>Saber defeated by an Assassin
What?

>>8147485

But Assassin never beats Saber, he just lures her to the Shadow, a perfect anti-spirit force.

>>8147485

Saber only has so much luck, after surviving guaranteed death at Lancer's NP, there wasn't enough left to save her from Assassin's NP, which has the exact same causality bullshit.

>>8147492

No it doesn't, don't be stupid.
For one, Zabaniya fails to hurt Saber, she attacks Hassan's arm and it does nothing.
For two, Zabaniya is not a luck matter like Gae Bolga, it is a magical matter that attempts to do a voodoo-curse. The Servant requires magical energy to neutralize it, not Luck.
For three, it was the Shadow, goddamn, not Assassin.

>>8147489
he lured her into a trap. that counts as defeating her

>>8147555

That's dumb.

You're dumb.

>>8147571
So basically trapping your opponent means you didn't beat her by tricking her into a trap?

>>8147589

Not by the lure, no.

If you bait a fish with a worm, did the worm kill the fish?

Arturia is probably the dumbest Saber in existence. No surprise at how useless she is in fights

Why doesn't Saber excalibur spam in F/Z? Why are honorable knights so shitty in grail wars? Why are Saber and Diarmuid such shitty knights that they value their ''knight's honor'' over their loyalty to their masters?

>>8147637
You forgot this image.

>>8147619
KNIGHT'S HONOR! The only thing she has is excalibur which she either can't spam or won't spam. She's got no other special extra moves to spam. She would've been better as a berserker.

>>8147601

>>8147637

>Why doesn't Saber excalibur spam in F/Z?

Left hand cut by Gae Buidhe. After she gets it back she uses it 3 times.

>Why are honorable knights so shitty in grail wars?

Because it's a dishonorable war.

>Why are Saber and Diarmuid such shitty knights that they value their ''knight's honor'' over their loyalty to their masters?

Chivalry is supreme. Violating chivalry on your master's orders is still unchivalrous.

I like how everyone keeps saying that Servants are unbeatable, when they rarely use their trump cards from the beginning and can be killed at those very moments even by humans.

>>8147934
Servant's aren't really unbeatable. They're just the upper mid-tier of the ranking list along with the 27 DAAs 6-27.

>>8147934

Well to be fair,Servants ARE unbeatable to completely normal humansWell, so long as they aren't packing Black Barrel atleast but then I wouldn't even consider someone like that a normal human. Only a magus has even the slightest chance against one.

>>8147645

>She would've been better as a berserker.

...Assuming she even gets access to the Excaliblast as a Berserker, that would basically be fucking Suicide for the Master. I mean c'mon,she'd show no restraint with the damn thing.

Why does Kariya suffer so much with supplying Berserker with mana while Uryuu is being happy-go-lucky with Caster despite him being never even heard of magic?

>>8148556
kariya has a shitty prana supply, and berserker takes more of it than other servants.

>>8148556
Caster supplied his own power by eating innocent people. Kariya had the unfortunate worm infestation and a servant that raped him.

>>8148556

Because Berserker is a seriously intensively mana heavy class. Since,thanks to Mad Enhancement, unless you're a really damn good Magus who can handle an all A Stat servant,you're going to be pushing yourself over your limits.

Also theres an additional cost of making sure they don't tottally fucking lose it and kill you to boot.

>>8148594

What if all the masters used Mad Enchantment? Will they all summon Berserker class?

>>8148620
Why are you so dumb?

>>8148625

Why are you so insistent on name calling instead of answering the question? Are you insecure? Does it make you feel better about yourself?

>>8141871
>Kirei powned true assasin.
When?

Food for thought, a low level Servant could probably take out the entire mortal/human/non-magical world given no human/vampire/magus interferes.

A high tier Dead Apostle such as Nrvnsqr would still most likely die from nuclear weapons.

>>8148647

>given no human/vampire/magus interferes.

Do you even know what the Church is for?

Also, Counter Guardians interfere after you've killed about a billion humans.

>>8148639
Why are you so insistent on being dumb? Do you feel better being less intelligent than an unbroken rock?

>>8148647
>Nero
>die from nuclear weapons
How about no? They have to be attacked with conceptual weapons or magic or no dice. Their regeneration capacity is way too powerful that even if you completely shred them into nothing, they'll still rebuild themselves from nothing.

>>8148620
Mad enhancement is on the servant, not the summoner.

So why's there pr0n on this thread?

>>8148697

I thought mad enchantment was the the extra spell incantation the master says during summoning to summon berserker class. I was talking about that. What if all masters used it?

>>8148666

Yeah, that does my answer second question. Ironically, I guess you're too retarded to answer the first so you're projecting your own stupidity upon others. You look pathetic.

>>8148756
The first one to use it would get berserker, the rest would either fail the summoning or get a different servant class.

>>8148804
I don't think so. Didn't the 3rd HGW have two Sabers participate in it?

>>8148850
That was some weird duality of the same servant summoned by Twin Masters.