/jp/ - Otaku Culture

>>7545645
Too deep for you, I guess.

>bunch of Umineko detail questions
>Ryukishi can't write for shit.

There's your answer, fishbulb.

Who cares anymore.

Episode 1 was really good. At least we'll always have that, right?

>>7545671
No, just no. That's wrong. That's not how she is.

>>7545671

What a lewd cake

>>7545693

Give in. This is not sacrifice. It is evolution.

>>7545671
I thought she was holding a pair of rubber balls at first

You seem to forget that Yasuda is not the only killer.

Typically it seems to be Yasuda and one "family" (parents + their child).

>>7548867
Yes, but wasn't everyone but Yasu, Jessica, Battler and Eva dead at that point? Battler, Jessica and Eva didn't kill Nanjo, then that leaves only Yasu. I doubt Eva would kill George herself, so that was probably Yasu too. All of the other murders except the ones on the first twilight must have been done by Eva, with the exception of Hideyoshi who might've been killed by Kyrie and Rudolf.

Finding answers? What are you, a goat, have gratuitous amounts of shipping fanservice.

ITT
>we blame ryukishi when it's hachijo's shit writing fault
>yes, I'm implying ryukishi was that good of a writer

>>7548888
>Shipping fanservice

If only we'd have gotten at least that. GeorgeShannon and JessiKanon is SHIT, and Beato died in EP4/5 so the Beato Battler is married to isn't even the original Beato.

I could take it if it was all Beato and Battler harassing and flirting with eachother like in EP 1-4, but no, R07 just had to shit up the whole thing didn't he.

Actually it was Eva the one who shoot George and Shannon (she wanted her to die because she killed Hideyoshi in the mansion). The real shit happens then. You know. Shannon is dead but Beatrice isn't (meta answer, you know it to be true) so she went and killed nanjo for the sake of it. Or she just went and triggered on the bomb, hence her killing Nanjo. It's true, Eva didn't kill the doctor. Who cares?

>>7548906

Woah that is like 4 levels of meta writing there

>>7548906
>Implying Hachijo/Tohya/Featherine/Ikuko aren't all R07's self-inserts/autor-avatars and voicing all of his opinions

>>7548918

>this doesn't negate that Hachijo was written as being a shit writer who understand a truth without any love. God, she didn't even know about ShkannonYasuTrice.

>>7548918
>>7548924

I think Featherine is a self-mockery of how people will certainly THINK him to be after Umineko finishes.

Since it really, really is.

>>7548924
Maybe BT dying created some kind of split personality within himself, and he has a cynical, pure logic side, and a soap opera, romance addicted side, and Chiru was his own way to achieve catharsis through really terrible writing and prose.

Umineko is good from start to finish.

All hail Sakutaro.

>>7548956

I love you.

Here, have my babies.

>>7548956
Fuck I hated Sakutaro
IF I HEAR URYUU ONE MORE TIME...
>>7548932
He IS like that, haven't you seen his interviews? Arrogant, no traces of being humble, whenever he's criticized he either avoids the question or pushes the blame onto someone else (Usually one of his staff or his "dumb" readers)

>>7548979

Who cares if he calls some of his readers "dumb"? Have you read some of those delusional, crazy, illogical blue truths some theatergoers dare to say? If I were Ryu I would probably treat them like the trash they are too.

>>7548956
Please, marry me.

>>7548995
I don't give a shit about what he thinks of the readers, but I do think he's a douche for being all "LOL IT WASN'T MY FAULT IT WAS MY STAFF'S FAULT/YOU'RE JUST TOO STUPID TO GET IT/ YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND BECAUSE YOU ARE A VIRGIN/ YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND BECAUSE YOU HAVE NO VAGINA, etc." Excuses. Escuses everywhere.

>>7548979

This. He assumes that the people that bitch about how little sense makes for Yasu to become a mass murder have never loved in their life.

How the hell he knows? On what kind of facts he can make such correlation?

He's just an incredibly pretentious douche and I suspect he's not totally sane if when he loved he thought about killing the very person he loved. I certainly don't want to be loved by him if that's the case.

>>7549045

For me Yasu had enough sense for me to at least accept it. Yasu only wanted Battler to notice her and in her instable mind she thought that giving him a mistery murder was good enough. She wanted him to remember, this is so damn true. I do agree that she didn't need to commit a mass murder but we are not inside Yasu's mind, I think it's a motive good enough.

>>7549074
Just to add to that, the whole reason she went through the effort of doing those murders was to get Battler to recognize her existense as "Beatrice" right? It probably wouldn't have been enough for Yasu if she had just confronted him as "Shannon", since now "Beatrice" is the one that loves Battler.

When I think like that, it's a little more acceptable to me, but it's still messed up.

>>7549074

It makes absolutely no sense to kill your best and only friends only for the purpose of refreshing someone's memory. Even less sense is to kill the very persons you love for such a forgivable sin.

The only conclusion you can reach is that she was completely mad, and that's the lamest whydunnit a mystery can possibly show.

>>7549080

That makes even less sense considering that Battler never had any connection to Beatrice before. and Beatrice herself say it so. 6 years before Beatrice didn't exist for Battler.

What she wanted him to remember was a sin committed against Shannon.

>>7549088
Well yes, but at the same time didn't she want to be loved as Beatrice?

>>7549080

Maybe at first but she definitely wanted for Battler to destroy the illusion

>>7549074

Instable mind, six years of self inflicted torture, roleplaying to the point of having multiple personalities, considering himself nothing more than furniture, lived a life of lies. Her mother died, Yasu being born from an incestuous relation between Beatrice2 and a kinzo maddened by love.
....do we really have what it takes to say "It doesn't make sense to me"? I too know that Yasu had infinite more ways to resolve the matter. The fact that she choose the "roulette" way was just a consequence of her shitty life.

>>7549099
But it's the build up that killed it for me, i was expecting something more clever than, lol she's just crazy.

>>7549080
I thought it was because Battler didn't recognize Shannon that she used Beatrice.

Reading Umineko is much like being thrown face-first into a pit of shit and then watching Ryukishi from above have a fit because you are unable to find his favorite penny in the pit.

>>7549110

She is not crazy, she is instable but still brilliant. The whydunnit isn't "she was crazy LOLOMG", it was "because she loved battler and in her situation couldn't find any other way to escape".

>>7549111
Shannon is in love with George now, so she wouldn't any longer give a shit about if Battler remembered her or not.

Only Beatrice has those memories now, but of course she knows that they were originally Shannon's.

>>7549124
The fact that "she couldn't find any other way to escape" prove that she was crazy.
It's not like she was trapped or something, nobody was out to hurt her either.

>>7549099

Apart from the stuff she inflicted to herself by herself which only reinforce the fact that she was totally crazy since birth, all the rest can be said for any other fukuin children.

It's not like she was the only one that lost her parents and was made to work as a servant. And being a social recluse is something that we all know what means.

Overall I don't think Yasu had such a bad life and she decided to off herself and everyone she knew right at the time when everything was going to get better for her.

And not because of anything of the shit you mentioned, but because she couldn't make up her mind between three persons two of which already LOVED her.

rather than being content of being loved by all the four cousins she made a fuss out of no having been the center of the universe of a 12 years old boy who just had lost his mom and found out his father was shit.

>>7549124
>"because she loved battler and in her situation couldn't find any other way to escape".

I still don't get how that amounts to serial murders

Why not just suicide or something. Or just kill Battler.

>>7549138

You don't kill the person you love if you have the slightest chance you can be with her! That's where ryuukishi totally fails at his attempt to make this pass as a love crime.

Shannon has never been turned down by anyone. She was simply crazy.

>>7549124
You're giving ryukishi to much credit. Besides anyone with a split personality is pretty crazy in my book.

>>7549157
Shannon is in love with George, and George talks about how he wants to have a million of kids all the time. She is afraid that if she tells him the truth, that she can't have kids, she will be rejected by him.

Kanon doesn't have a penis to please Jessica with. So he is afraid of getting rejected as well.

Beatrice loves Battler and is a witch, but he doesn't even know who the fuck Beatrice is and he hates witches.

Ok guys, she was completely crazy. I rest of my idea that to really define Yasu, a bit of empathy is necessary. Now I really understand what Ryu meant when he said that we needed love.

>>7549083
Not if you believe in magic and that everyone will be resurrected in the better world.

>>7549131
>It's not like she was trapped or something
Except she lived her whole life on an isolated island and doesn't really know much about the outside world.

>>7549188
She went to school.
And most people don't know much about the world outside their city, that's how it works.
Her situation wasn't that different, the only thing that was trapping her was her mental state.

>>7549136
>rather than being content of being loved by all the four cousins she made a fuss out of no having been the center of the universe of a 12 years old boy
Except without a magic neither love will succeed, because of her body. So she needed a miracle. Or at least she believed it could occur, just like she thought it did for Kinzo.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x7VS-zlURFM

I'd say this explains Shannon pretty well.

I really don't understand how people can support this story. Did you truly appreciate how everything transpired? Was that really an ending you can be content with? I am genuinely curious, as someone who was furious of how this potentially great story concluded.

>>7549292
Fun fact: I have yet to read episode 8. To tell you the truth, since the tale ended with 7, I have no idea about what could be that terrible about Twilight. I'll see when the witch hunt completes the engpatch.

>>7549292
It was a great entertainment nonetheless, so it's worth reading. Especially if you don't think too much and just enjoy it.

>>7549396
>Game sold as a "thinking game"
>Don't think too much
That's why it's shit

>>7549292
I enjoyed the travel and didn't care about the destination.

And you're a dumbass for falling for it.
Thinking about stupid things doesn't actually make you smart.

>>7549404
That's what pissed me off about Chiru.

1-4, we knew romance was involved, but it was still predominately a mystery story, there was a puzzle here, and the readers were tasked to put it together. Theory threads were one of the best things about Umineko, and then Chiru comes along with its pure meta, without love you can't see that it is acceptable to instigate a mass murder shit.

I hated reading EP8, Ange ruined it all for me. Seriously, all EP8 consists of is Ange complaining, and then she's all like "Hey! Everyone was right all along, the truth doesn't matter!" at the end, after everyone is dead and shit. And then she turns into a murderer herself. Unless you went with the magic ending and got the whole Tohya bullshit. That's almost even worse.

And there really was no point or needto bring back Erika/Evatrice/Will/Lion/etc. except for fan-pandering.

>>7549510
Oh, and then there's the horrible quiz part. That alone brought the episode down a few levels.

>>7549510
>"Hey! Everyone was right all along, the truth doesn't matter!" at the end, after everyone is dead and shit. And then she turns into a murderer herself.
Truth DOES matter for her in this ending. That's why she's a Witch of Truth. She just doesn't accept Bernkastel's truth and goes on another (even if eternal) journey to find the truth, while admitting that it's fun to troll others with unpleasant truth like Erika does.

>after everyone is dead and shit
Everyone has been dead and shit for 12 already.

>>7549536

I for one enjoyed it, but Maria is a fucking bitch.

>>7549547
Yes, but not the pieces in the meta-world/golden land. inb4 "IT'S NOT REAL".

>>7549555

It's not real.

>>7549555
Yeah, but they can be resurrected at any time.

>>7549563
They still feel the pain, man.

>>7549563
I don't care. They still had to put up with that shit. And the fact that Ange is a horrible character is never going to change.

>>7549574
>>7549579
It's awwright by Umineko standards. Beatrice tortured them far, far more than that. I always remember that scene from ep3, when Battler gets mad seeing Evatrice torturing Rosa and Maria and Beatrice says something like "Aren't humans the creatures that are fine with anything as long as it ends well?" Well, that's the case here and in many other stories.

>And the fact that Ange is a horrible character is never going to change.
You just don't like good characters.

>>7549606
But umineko didn't have a good end...

>>7549619
I'm talking about resurrecting the characters.

I still prefer the fake murder solution. It makes the most sense when you have someone in love that want to make their old childhood mystery novel friend notice them.

I'd say that is all she planned. And the meta world is just a "what if if happened for real" that is there to replace the actual truth (that they all found the gold and killed each other).

At least that would have made it a good story and made sense.

>>7545645
Except she didn't kill George. Eva did

Ep III is the hardest episode to solve.

Ep I and II are all about Shkanon, while it's obvious there are multiple killers in ep III.

Kyrie probably killed George, but i can't say about Nanjo.
Yasu couldn't do it, Eva solved the epitaph and Yasu keeps her promises

>>7549197
>Except without a magic neither love will succeed, because of her body. So she needed a miracle
10 fucking tons of gold, she could have surgery to fix her genitalia without problem.

>>7549636

As much as i liked the fake murder mystery (because it's makes Yasu a little crazy, but more pitiable) R07 last interview pretty much killed it.

>>7549651

Eva would never kill her son and husband, it's one important plot point.

>>7548878
>I doubt Eva would kill George herself

It was likely an accident.

Here's the most likely scenario.

Yasu "revives" Shannon to talk to George, Eva notices her, tries to shoot Yasu, hits George instead.

>>7549660

She can't leave the island for too long, and she's a coward

>>7549292
The entire story has been fantastic

Of course, I'm not a bitter angry troll.

>>7549306
I don't get it either. Unless the ending to Twilight is literally the worst thing ever penned I don't see how it can be HALF as bad as all the trolls say. At worst it's going to be a weak ending to a good story.

>>7549693
People disliking something != trolls

Umineko had good moments and shit moments, it was a mixed bag.

>>7549708
It's trolling when you haven't read the episode in question and are declaring it bad based off out of context spoilers.

>>7549693
What is the story? A rich family goes to an island for a family meeting, and then people mysteriously die. We then proceed to have several episodes with the same goddamn premise, just with slight detail changes and a whole lot of meta meta meta meta bullshit. It's like R07 was watching Clue and wanted to do something just like it, except much longer, full of melodrama, and with a far shittier ending.

>>7549716
No, that wouldn't be trolling. That would be jumping to conclusions. Why are you so quick to call disagreements or even ignorance trolling?

>>7549716
I've read up to 7, and I fucking despised 6, and most of 7. The direction Ryukishi took with this story was one where he totally fucking alienated a group of fans, to pander shamelessly to another.

I really wish he would have stated in no uncertain terms that this was a romance, soap opera story, rather than imply there is a mystery, because there is not, and even if there was, it's not answered, which is the biggest slap in the face to someone in it for the answer.

>>7549678
Oh come on, she had 400 million USD worth of gold, plus Genji / Nanjo and Kumasawa helping her. She could have done whatever she wanted.

>>7549716
>It's trolling when you haven't read the episode in question and are declaring it bad based off out of context spoilers.

I don't know about others, but I've read EP8 myself (feels good to know moonspeak), and I think it was absolute shit. The only part I liked was in the magic ending when Battler & Beato do a lover's suicide (I have a fetisch for kisses on the earlobe), but in the context of everything that was shit too in the end.

>>7549658
>Ep. 2 about ShKanon
>Battler sees Shannon with a damn hole in her head

Ep.2 had multiple killers too. There's a second Beatrice around, and George probably killed Shannon and is still alive himself.

Ep. 1 may be about ShKanon, but Ep. 2 is definitely about the other crazy shit going on in the background.

Umineko had a lot of potential at the beginning, but Chiru should have been 2 episodes AT MOST, and that's only because I liked Ep 5 as it was.

>>7549909
Actually ep2 isn't that complicated.

Yasu went in as Kanon in Jessica's room and killed her as Beatrice, then she could just have anyone with a master key look the door, since she had bribed all servants + Rosa. Then, she had Kumasawa and Nanjo killed and hidden, and then she, Genji and Nanjo pulled their whole "KANON CAME AND KILLED THEM ACT". Then she killed Gohda, George, locked the door and suicided. The remaining people all died in the explosion.

>>7549922
Oh, and Battler never met Beatrice in the end, he was just hallucinating because he was drunk + he gave in to the witch. That's why Kinzo is there as well.

>>7549922
>Genji and Nanjo
Obviously, I mean Genji and Gohda. Fuck me.

Well, the true end will be shown when Umineko Rei is released. It has been confirmed and I'm sure it'll be the Best End. Nobody is killed, and everyone goes to the moon at Krauss's Resort! Maria defeats the evil witch that is in Rosa and they become a happy family. The End!

>>7549292
To the me the ending of a story isn't as important as the journey. I really enjoyed Umineko eps 1-5 a lot. Ep 6 is when I started to not enjoy it so much. Even with a dumb ending, I'm not going to forget or regret the fun I had with the first 5 eps.

I don't know if I should be happy or sad that I read all 8 episodes in just 2 weeks. I never got to enjoy any of the speculation and expectations, but at the same time It felt good knowing that I didn't wait months only to get the shit that was the last episodes.

>>7549944
Does that mean that Maria becomes likable? Or is that too big of a miracle?

>>7549958
Well, I guess it's good if you enjoyed the journey. I honestly couldn't enjoy it all that much the moment I found out we'd be going over the same scenario with a few variations over and over again.

>>7549928
People don't hallucinate because they are drunk. Your solution basically throws out the entire end of Battler's perspective for Ep. 2. Which is insane.

Also, you claim that Shannon suicided, yet fail to explain the crazy goddamned contraptions she'd need in order to shoot herself and then somehow hide the weapon afterward. Battler never checked George's corpse, on the other hand.

>>7549966
We (or at least I) had a great time after ep5 translation and before ep6 translation ruined almost all hopes. That was about 7 months.

>>7549993
It was officially confirmed by R07 that Shannon suicided after killing George and Gohda in EP2. I think the interview is translated somewhere. He said something about how she hid the gun, let me go try to find it.

>>7549993
Not this shit again.
They "hallucinate" when the player gives up and leaves his seat so the control transfers to GM.
ten_niggers_trick.jpg.png.avi.mp4

>>7549993
>Shannon died face down, slumped over the makeup cabinet. It’s a really simple trick. You tie the weapon to a heavy object with a string, then you throw the heavy object behind the cabinet. And then it’s the classic trick, when you commit suicide, the gun is pulled behind the cabinet towards the heavy object.

http://seizonsha.wordpress.com/2011/06/13/%E6%9C%80%E7%B5%82%E8%80%83%E5%AF%9F%E3%80%80%E3%81%86%E3%
81%BF%E3%81%AD%E3%81%93%E3%81%AE%E3%81%AA%E3%81%8F%E9%A0%83%E3%81%AB-answer-to-the-golden-witch-spec
ial-discussion/#more-253

There you have it. Bullshit explanation by R07. SATISFIED?

>>7549944
Is there a source for that?

>>7549958
Amen to that.

>>7550036
So, they were searching the room for the murder weapon, the murder weapon was still in the room, and they couldn't find the weapon because it was behind the cabinet? Really?

>>7550036
If only he stole the good mystery concepts from And Then There Were None also, rather than just the method of death.

>>7550048
>they were searching the room for the murder weapon
Except they weren't. Rosa prevented any interference "to preserve the scene for the police". And the room was in great disarray already. Can you, retards, at least reread the scene before complaining?

>>7550066
Which begs the question, if the scene is going to be preserved for the police anyway, then what's the point? Unless the police detective who shows up is going to be the main character that we follow in order to solve the mystery, there's little point in this tale to having murder scenes that you aren't permitted to investigate.

>>7550083
You shouldn't forget about And Then There Were None's police report.

>>7550083
The point is for Battler to stop nitpicking about stupid tricks in the crime scene and pay attention to the human relationships and also to fucking finally accept that the servants and\or other people close to him are involved, because there's no way they couldn't be.

>>7550018
and I'm saying that to do so while in the first person narration is fucking weak and destroys all the credibility that he tried to build up for Battler's point of view.

>>7550017
Please do. I'd enjoy knowing that these mysteries have the worst solutions possible. I know that there is precedence for hiding weapons after suicide, but using that solution here both kills the entire point of the scene and hardly makes sense. I mean, George was shot in the fucking stomach, it's not like his death should really have been that quick. Hell, he may even have survived. Did she wait around for him to bleed to death? Because waiting would be a huge fucking risk. And why did Rosa try so hard to keep Battler from checking his corpse? It really is shit writing if this is true and the whole "1st person Battler isn't reliable either" point above.

While we are at it, can anyone explain why Hideyoshi lies about Shannon's corpse in the first episode? Jessica lying about Kanon could be due to her feelings etc, but I can't find a reason Hideyoshi would lie apart from him knowing the truth and bring bribed or something. And if that's true, he doesn't do a very good job of ensuring his own safety

>>7550119
Regarding Shannon's suicide check>>7550036
After "Beatrice" killed George, Shannon must have been so devastated she killed herself. As for George, I doubt he would attack Yasu back, even though she had a different personality.

>And why did Rosa try so hard to keep Battler from checking his corpse?
Rosa was bribed by Yasu, I don't think there was any deeper meaning to it.

>While we are at it, can anyone explain why Hideyoshi lies about Shannon's corpse in the first episode? Jessica lying about Kanon could be due to her feelings etc, but I can't find a reason Hideyoshi would lie apart from him knowing the truth and bring bribed or something. And if that's true, he doesn't do a very good job of ensuring his own safety

Again, BRIBES. This is why Umineko is so shitty. Yasu just bribes everyone in all episodes. Especially in EP4.

>>7550119
>and I'm saying that to do so while in the first person narration is fucking weak and destroys all the credibility that he tried to build up for Battler's point of view.
He already did the same in ep5.

>why Hideyoshi lies about Shannon's corpse in the first episode
Money.
>he doesn't do a very good job of ensuring his own safety
It can't be helped. They are a lot of servants and they have guns.
>Jessica lying about Kanon
She probably didn't realize that he was alive. Yasu is a perfect actor, after all, and Nanjo can prevent her from even touching him.

>>7550087
What about that police report? It was short, and they basically solved the mystery. The police there were able to investigate the crime scene.

What >>7550083 is saying is that it is pointless for a murder mystery to not have a detective; i.e. either Battler is able to fully investigate, or the police are. Even if it makes sense story wise, it suddenly fails to be a mystery if neither of those are fulfilled.

>>7550161
Umineko isn't a mystery you stupid goat!
I'm really trying too hard

>>7550161
>they basically solved the mystery
Maybe you should actually read the novel. They solved shit until the truth was revealed in a message bottle by the culprit.

>i.e. either Battler is able to fully investigate
He is. He's just incompetent and sometimes emotional, but he doesn't lie. He finds enough clues for you to solve it.

>>7550158
Ep 5 is actually where he tried so hard to establish the credibility of the 1st person "detective." Since Battler was not the detective, his 1st person viewpoint did not have to be accurate. But Battler was the detective for the first 4 episodes.

To say that his 1st person perspective in episode 2 is a lie is to basically say that episode 5 is completely worthless

>>7550185
I know, it's ファンジータ right?

>>7550205
It's not a lie for the most of the episode. Just for the part when the player-Battler has given up to the witch and "left the player seat", like in ep5. The piece-Battler then starts seeing magic, witches and shit even before 0:00

>>7550205
Why stop there, Umineko as a whole was pointless.

The mystery portion is horrendous, and completely not in good faith on Ryukishi's part.

>>7550188
I said basically. They give the reader a big fucking clue, and if they actually thought about the fact that everyone killed was unmistakably guilty of some crime, they could've easily solved it without the message in the bottle.

Although you are right that technically the "detective" does not solve the mystery, as I said, they provide a huge handout to the reader, and if you are unable to solve it with that extra clue, gives the bottle message to methodically explain how everything occurred.

>>7549197
>Except without a magic neither love will succeed, because of her body. So she needed a miracle. Or at least she believed it could occur, just like she thought it did for Kinzo.

I thought the "miracle" was the death of 2 of her 3 personalities? Only one of them can be with the person they love. They can only become complete if they're the only personality. That is the miracle, right? They knew that there was a chance their relationships wouldn't work out because of their bodies, but that was not what mattered to them. They wanted to become "complete"..... right? I interpreted the term "Furniture" as having multiple meanings. One of them is of course having a damaged body, but it seemed that the term "Furniture" also referred to people that weren't real and people that weren't "complete", etc.

>>7550244
Sorry. Actually re-reading it, the detectives thought a few more people might be innocent, although it is a pretty huge clue to the reader

>As you know, chrono has been enrolled for an internship a few months ago. Regarding this matter, chrono has got a stable job as result. This of course will have an impact on his free time and thus the translation of Episode 8.

>There isn't much to say, aside that we will try to be done with Episode 8 as soon as we can, but it has to be expected that our pace will decline.
>We will of course not drop the project whatsoever, rest assured.
So I guess it's not going to be finished by August like the last time.

>>7549783
Except that's the direction he was taking it from the very start.

Love and romance has been a central theme of Umineko from the very START

>K Love is really a sufficient motive even for murder, isn’t it?!

>R And I think people who do not know that, will sadly never understand Umineko. Because Umineko is „the story of a single girl who arrived at that point because she imagined an incident because of the love and madness in herself“, no matter how much I express that, people who don’t share that feeling will never do so. If I had to compare it, it’s similar to a kick in the crotch or menstrual pain. No matter how much more I pile up on my writing by explaining it, it won’t reach the people who don’t know the feeling. How scary must it be, to be told that your partner „wants children“, when you have a body that cannot make love. That’s why Shannon couldn’t speak honestly. Because she thought she would be hated if she were honest. But to be honest, I think if she really told him that, George would be more than happy to modify his plans for the future. But Shannon was far to scared to hear that. And if you turn this around, it means that George really wasn’t just a replacement for Battler. Maybe he was a replacement at the beginning, but at some point she began completely seeing George for the man he was. If you think about that, his comment about children, must have kept haunting her in silence.

Oh you Ryukishi

>>7550421
I remember when I first read EP1, I was like "wow a story with adults playing an important part; and that inheritance stuff + the conflicts around it looks pretty cool. Finally something else than the usual bullshit teenage drama"
Feels bad man.

The problem isn't that the motivation is love, the problem is that love is pissweak garbage. Battler said something and Yasu took it as a fucking marriage proposal forever and ever. They didn't have anything. It's retarded.

>>7550477
She was mentally challenged. It was just like Jessica and Mammon were saying, she was delusional.
メンヘラスイーツ（笑）

Also, in regards to the whole "Battler hallucinating" argument;
>R It’s almost that meaning. To just come out and say it, there are no golden butterflies. When somebody starts seeing them, he is starting to go insane. But for example the scene where it latches on to Rosa’s back is pretty meaningful, because she can’t see it. That is why I think that the golden butterflies were a pretty simple to understand identifier.

>>7550436
So, R07 understands the feeling of "having a body that cannot make love"?
Is he impotent or something?

>>7550495
We can only hope.

Wow, what a fucking prick R07 is

>>7550495
Maybe he was in love with BT. Since they're both dudes and BT died halfway through, they couldn't have kids.

He should be questioned about this.

>>7550150
>Again, BRIBES. This is why Umineko is so shitty. Yasu just bribes everyone in all episodes. Especially in EP4.

Not necessarily. Considering Hideyoshi character, it makes more sense he was blackmailed

>>7551128
In the end, what difference does it make?

Want a good villain who is also a good waifu, go play 999.

Yasu is rage tier.

Seriously, when you go from episode 5's ZOMG BEATO <3 to making everyone like Jessica more than you you've done goofed.

>>7551214
IT'S NOT BEATO'S FAULT

SHE'S JUST A BY-PRODUCT OF THE RETARD THAT IS YASU

SHE'S A VICTIM OF YASU TOO... ;_;

I want to believe

>>7550464
It's still not really a "teenage drama"

Romance isn't exactly exclusive to teh kiddies. And Umineko DOES take a nuanced look at the whole love theme. It shows the positives AND the negatives of it.

>>7545671
beautiful

>>7550421
I realize that, but that impression isn't really slammed home to the readers until EP3, maybe EP4 for it to be a certainty.

If he just came out and said "HEY, THE MYSTERY IS GOING TO BE VERY FUCKING NEGLIGABLE IN THIS STORY", I wouldn't have wasted my time with it.

I loved those threads where we discussed theories, but it's all pointless with the answer he gave us, because apparently the relationship between the androgynous shemale who takes what children say far too seriously, and the least retarded member of the Ushiromiya bloodine, which isn't really saying much, is the only thing to care about.

Yes, as a mystery enthusiast, I still mad. My only solace is I've never spent a dime on anything Umineko related.

People ought to stop conflating Yasu with the characters she put in her stories. Just because she used her hangups and romantic problems as inspiration for her writing, that doesn't mean she actually had multiple personalities in real life.

>>7551865
You can't say with certainty whether she was one way or another, so people are free to guess however they like. All you have are clues from the writing, so it's up to you whether you take them literally or try to make it seem less retarded by saying "well in actuality it wasn't like that at all."

I thought this one was pretty obvious.

>>7550436
> A body that can not make love

So Yasu was intersex and had fucked up genitals?

>>7551791

And all this thread proves, just as with every other Umineko thread we have had since Ep6, is that mystery enthusiasts are angry, bitter people.

I, too, am upset that the genre has been dead for forty years, but really, there comes a point where we have to move on. Umineko wasn't even that terrible.

>>7550436
>George would be more than happy to modify his plans for the future.

Yes, by killing himself when he realizes he went through all that effort, and all those lies, just so he could be with another man.

>>7550150
>Again, BRIBES. This is why Umineko is so shitty. Yasu just bribes everyone in all episodes. Especially in EP4.

No, actually, Ep4 is Yasu's plans backfiring horribly and Kyrie killing everyone.

Then Yasu shoots Kyrie in the back of the head, goes downstairs, tells Maria to throw all the guns into the well and then take this sweet, not-at-all-poisoned candy, and then blows her own head off.

Honestly, the first four games are quite simple when you take Ep7's Tea Party into account.

>>7552058
>Then Yasu shoots Kyrie in the back of the head, goes downstairs, tells Maria to throw all the guns into the well and then take this sweet, not-at-all-poisoned candy, and then blows her own head off

So Yasu kills the murderer in self-defense, then for the hell of it decides to painfully kill Maria with a convenient poison candy after having a child carry a bunch of guns to a hole. Then she kills herself.

Such a thing is possible. But it really doesn't make any sense.

This is all fascinating, but why is it impossible to find any Kinzo/Yasu rape porn?

>>7552068
Insane murder plots involving a crazy shemale don't have to make sense.

>>7552075
They do when Ryukishi whips out his literary phallus to gush about how important the "why dunnit" is.

>>7552068

The point, as with all of the first four games, is to trick Battler. Yasu's concealment of the guns is her trying to make the best of the situation Kyrie had given her.

Ultimately, it proves even more confusing than the games where her plot actually worked.

>>7552041
The genre is not dead, and I just feel lied to when it comes to Umineko.

If you read any mystery of decent quality, you will realize how mediocre this one is. Hell, it's barely a mystery, considering how badly Ryukishi concluded it. It's quite the sin to build up the who/why/how dun it, and then leave it up to the reader to decide. That is simply not how mystery stories work, there is a definitive answer that can be ascertained through the story, where no other possible truth can exist. It's like being given a puzzle board that has a myriad of different end results, there is no fun in that.

I am fine with it being a romance story by itself, but it should have never even made the attempt to add mystery to it, because the man has no idea how to properly utilize the genre. I feel like the only people who attained joy from the Chiru episodes were the ones who said fuck everything and blankly watched the trainwreck.

So basically R07 has no genitals and wants to kill the people he loves?

>>7552107
>The genre is not dead

Who even writes whodunits anymore? Simon Brett? He's TERRIBLE.

The genre is dead.

>If you read any mystery of decent quality, you will realize how mediocre this one is.

Yes, if it were trying to be one. It's not. It's trying to be LIKE one.

>I feel like the only people who attained joy from the Chiru episodes were the ones who said fuck everything and blankly watched the trainwreck.

Or, you know, people who understood what Ryukishi was trying to accomplish. Those people exist, you know.

>what Ryukishi was trying to accomplish
We are all well aware of his desire to shit on his fans.

>>7552145

If you believe this, then Agatha Christie was the long-lost daughter of a rich family who returned home one day to murder her father, having put herself in debt due to gambling. When Poirot arrives, she pretends to be obsessed with capturing the killer, and, intent on covering up her own tracks, joins the investigation team.

>>7552190

It's like you're not even trying to look at things from a different point of view.

What the hell did you even want out of Umineko?

>>7552145
No, R07 is the lady who wrote the Games after the 1st 4. AKA Hachijou/Featherine. Now that Ange's story is over, we can focus on more important stuff in Rei!

For guy who wanted source, it's in his blog http://07th-expansion.net/Cgi/clip/clip.cgi
12/23/2010


今はまだ体が疲れていますが、頭はもう元気になったみたいで、色々と挑戦
したくてうずうずしています。
『うみねこ』の「礼」も描きたいし、次の新しい作品も描きたいし。
ずっと引き篭もりだったので、色々なところに遊びにいって、勉強をしたい
です！

>>7552206

Hachijou wrote 3 and 4 as well. The shift in writers is really obvious if you know what to look for, even.

Actually, given this, I'm willing to be that Touya is the one who wrote 5-8, not Hachijou.

>>7552194

Sounds like a non-supernatural Death Note.

>>7552245

God damn it. Light is a Christie villain. Everything makes sense now.

>>7552041
Yes, I am angry, because there was aspects of Umineko that could've made a decent mystery. It's like R07 had the elements, but then decided to instead opt for the crazy way out.

The beginning of Ep 3 is a great example. The fisrt six murders seems crazy at first, but in a murder mystery, it would actually be a huge concession to the readers. It would be him saying that he's following the "rules" by not making any of the servants the culprit, but there's also the door in the boiler room that does not lock which allows anyone else to be the culprit.

Instead, his solution relies on fucking around with word play and hoping to god that Shannon's body is found first.

>>7552203
A VN that didn't lie about its premise and turn into a shitty generic tsundere romance halfway through, perhaps?

>>7552530
To be fair, he's been saying that Umineko isn't a mystery since Episode 1.

>>7552429
It wasn't a matter of hoping that Shannon would be found first. None of the rooms in the mansion could be broken into from outside except hers, and nobody would think to go looking for a corpse in the chapel at random, so there was practically no risk of things going wrong. The boiler room wasn't established to have a non-locking external door in EP3, so it couldn't be used to get inside.

Also, none of the five victims besides Kinzo were established to be dead until after Kanon was discovered, so semantics didn't really play into the construction at all.

>>7552541
It was written in such a way it was interpreted as some kind of in-game challenge. That's pretty misleading to say the least.

>>7552548
>so semantics didn't really play into the construction at all.
The person=personality stunt R07 pulled out looks like a huge wankery over semantics to me.

>>7552594
Ryukishi pretty explicitly put it on the table during the fight over Nanjo's murder, and there was that business in EP2 about "creating another person inside of yourself", so it's not like we weren't warned. Repeatedly.

>>7552541
Who give a shit.
It is horrible as a romance.
Mystery/thriller? Nope stupid borefest and illogical motives and sugoi personality = human plot twist.

Only good thing about it is the music.
I question anyone sanity and taste that still think umineko is good and defending it.

>>7552624
The fact we were warned doesn't make it less terrible as far as the mystery part of umineko goes.
But who gives a flyin' fuck about the mystery anyway.

>>7552628
>Only good thing about it is the music
Cosign the fuck out of that. Love the music, but I can only look back on Umineko bitterly now.

And I hate that, because I loved the fuck out of 1-4, and to a slightly lesser extent, 5. I remember marathoning the very first episode, getting only a few hours of sleep, on a work night no less, because I couldn't put it down. It's so sad that it turned into this abomination.

>>7552594
>>7552624

Rereading Umineko, I found this enjoyable bit in EP6's finale.

(Battler, to Beato, who had just defeated Erika)
"Are you sure this is alright? That's such a cheap trick, they're gonna complain that this isn't a mystery.."
Beato: "That's only if they don't have love, it's alright.."


Ryukishi totally saw the responses coming. A diligent artist that doesn't work to pleasure his fanbase, I can respect that. Even if he's a moron with an ego the weight of a beached whale.

>>7552686
So if we call it out on being a cheap trick and shitty writing, we don't have love. I honestly hope R07 doesn't think that way.

>>7552686

>>7552703
Oh he does. In his eyes, it's not Umineko that is bad, it's his readers that simply are not smart enough to understand his vision, or some other arrogant horseshit.

>>7552726
I understand how he feels, because I noticed I have a similar thought pattern. It's some rational thinking but mixed with a heavy use of intuition, which allows to "get" some things rather quickly instead of fully deducing them logically step by step.
I also tend to look down on people who can't do this, because they seem stupid.

>>7552710
I wonder how many hate mails Ryu reveiced after EP8.

>>7552726
In Stranger In A Strange Land, the character Jubal Harshaw gives a tentative definition to "Art" - the kind with a capital A.

It goes something like this: any guy who knows how to use a chisel can carve a young, beautiful woman. It takes an Artist to carve an old woman and force the person who sees it to also see the young, beautiful woman she used to be.

So, True Art is having a concept, and enshrining it in your craft such that the work you create is itself a communication to your readers.

The claim is repeatedly made that the solution couldn't be predicted. But it was. The ones who predicted it just hoped it was wrong because it wasn't satisfying. Even to those who grasped the solution of the "mystery" back in Ep4, the concept he was trying to communicate didn't take root. And to then assume that the readers didn't "get it" - when they did; they just didn't care - is the same kind of arrogance seen in, for example, Zardoz.

>>7552763
Did you elucidate this before or after you discovered you had 47 chromosomes?

>>7552777
After I came to /jp/.

>>7552768
>Zardoz

I really didn't want to remember. Thanks, jerk.

>>7552726
It's interesting how stories of what Ryukishi supposedly thinks about his readers keep getting worse as they're passed from person to person. Kind of like a malevolent game of telephone.

>>7552822
Some people are just that mad. Some are deliberate trolls. Some are just retarded.

>>7552822
Except we already have evidence that he's called people stupid readers, goats, etc., and in that recent interview everyone keeps posting, he said he thought people didn't "get" it or like Umineko because the answer was too difficult.

It's hardly a leap of logic to assume that he thinks Umineko is fine the way it is, and it is the fans who are wrong, clearly the plebes cannot grasp his esoteric knowledge of murder and love being TOTALLY the interchangeable.

By ep5, most people will rather hope that magic exists rather than some kind of disguise and fake death.

>>7552843
>recent interview everyone keeps posting
What key words should I look for to search this interview in the archive? I usually hide Umiunko threads on sight since they are usually shit.

>>7552871
Here's a link:
http://seizonsha.wordpress.com/2011/06/13/%E6%9C%80%E7%B5%82%E8%80%83%E5%AF%9F%E3%80%80%E3%81%86%E3%
81%BF%E3%81%AD%E3%81%93%E3%81%AE%E3%81%AA%E3%81%8F%E9%A0%83%E3%81%AB-answer-to-the-golden-witch-spec
ial-discussion/#more-253

I've read through a lot of the stuff on the Japanese theory wiki, and to be honest I can't really fault Ryu for dialing the difficulty back if that stuff was representative.

>>7552873
>I am really glad that I got to connect with people like KEIYA. He is a representative for all the tough readers with guts, for whom I am so glad to have created this story. I am so happy that I got to deliver this story to such wonderful people. I am planning to write many more stories after that, but when I am thinking that there are readers out there like KEIYA, I want to try even harder, so please stay with me. And because KEIYA’s thoughts have brought forth such a wonderful piece of work in comparison to my own writing, please support him as well.
>tough readers with gut
I think he meant readers that eat his bullshit without thinking about how illogical his stories are.

>>7552886
What did they write?
I heard that Japanese fandom in general is even more retarded than Western.

>>7552889
>I think he meant readers that eat his bullshit without thinking about how illogical his stories are.
That's nice. Keiya's pretty much the most respected Umineko theorist in Japan, by the way. This interview is from his latest book.

>>7552898
no, it's just a different sort of retarded if anything.

>>7552686
>A diligent artist that doesn't work to pleasure his fanbase, I can respect that.

Hahaha what. I'm sorry, but it was obvious that R07 was pandering to fans all the fucking time in Chiru, although it might have not been to the HARDCORE MYSTERY-camp. It's obvious he did shit like bring back Erika and Evatrice, have Beato and Battler marry, forced Rosa-musou in EP8, etc. because they were popular with fans.

He did work to pleasure his fanbase.

Are all murder mystery fans this retarded? Or is this just a Umineko specific thing?

>>7553316
No, it's just Umineko's author that is retarded.

>>7553316
Shit attracts shit, so yeah, an Umineko thing

You've got to admit that true masterpieces do not have such huge amount of (ex)fans left with the feeling they have wasted their time and money reading shit.

>>7553346
That's because all Umineko amounted was hype, hype, hype.
Everyone wanted to know something, be it the true relationships, the true identity, the true culprits, the true ending.
When it come to a close and the resolution failed to deliver, you have the readers split into those who think hype without a proper conclusion is pointless and thus everything was hollow, and those who like hype by itself and so are too emotionally invested to care about the low points of the series.

>>7553346
Umineko has the most amount of people who fully admit that they wasted their time on it that I have ever seen.

Ryukishi's a dick, the answer was never too complex, it was too stupid. On /jp/ and /a/ during episodes 1-4, the MPD theory got brought up multiple times, but people were like "Nah, that'd require a retarded twisting of the red text, Ryukishi wouldn't do it to us." "Plus, it's a stupid concept in general, Jessica would have to be in on it."

And he fucking did. Personas counting as people? Fuck you, asshole.

Not only DID but a lot of theories that were considered absolutely retarded by most and ridiculed as such turned out to be true, starting from Shkanon.

No seriously I remember clearly when the author theory was considered "bad writing" and caused a lot of "shut the fuck up" reactions.

>>7553369
You need a huge suspension of belief to accept the implied truth by SUPER TENSAI R07.
There is a reason why he left it ambiguous at the end. He himself cant actually say it outright because of how retarded it is.

Am I the only one who can't help but noticing how convenient it is for Keia that Umineko had this kind of vague ending?

How many people would be actually willing to spend their money on a book filled with speculations if everything was already explained perfectly?

>>7553408
Oh I see, so it was all an elaborate plot by R07 and Keiya to make more money.

Now it all makes sense.

Throwing in my opinion that the music was the best part about the entire thing, and that it starts off fucking wonderful at Ep 1 and continues to fall downhill.

>>7553316
More like sub mystery fans, that claim to be interested in a mystery aspect of the story, but actually retarded as fuck and rely on opinions of others.

>>7553514
Keep telling yourself that.

>>7553511
I agree. The music was the most enjoyable aspect of Umineko, it was fucking great.

And it's a shame that R07 didn't use a bunch of songs that were composed for him. Dai and xaki and the others made tons more.

These are fucking awesome;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WhQPkskQjbo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gw593pJ9cIU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h-NenM57Fcc (So much better than the shitty yakusoku vocal song he used)

>>7553556
But that's the truth. There are people that can't even remember and understand the parts that were written in plain words in the story, never mind interpretations and ambiguity, yet still complain about them, using the same words they heard cool guys said.

>>7553583
And what about the people who actually played and remember most of the things and still don't like it? Are they also retarded mystery fans?

>>7553583
And what about the people that didn't give a shit about the mystery and it's solution, but still thought Umineko was shit?

>>7553607

You can find retards everywhere, tardness has no boundaries like sex, religion, philosphy, race, nationality and any of that stuff.

Just because there are retards in a certain group doesn't prove that the group itself is retard.

>>7553596
>>7553607
What it has to do with liking it or not at all? The question was:
>Are all murder mystery fans this retarded? Or is this just a Umineko specific thing?
And indeed most people claiming to read Umineko for the mystery are retards, who can't even think for themselves, yet still bitch about its mystery solution.
If you don't like it - fine. Just don't complain about the mystery part, if you can't even get the known facts straight.

>>7553562

>Not Door to the 6th
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uz3sOJ7UsRI&feature=related

I was hoping this was used in EP8. But he didn't made a end good enough to deserve that track. Such a pity. Any ending fitting that track would be good, no matter if sad or happy.

>>7553860

you quote the questions and you can't even read it straight?

>>7554007
so much wasted potential

What the fuck is witch hunt doing, did they give up?

>>7554132
Their translator got a job, and by extension, a real life I guess.

Enjoy never seeing EP8 translated

>>7554148

It's okay, he was a retard anyway.

>>7554156
Was he the one that translated all the earlier episodes too? In that case I agree, his translations were atrocious. I wanted to punch someone everytime I had to read "oba-san" or "onee-chan".

>>7554160
Oh, and I forgot to mention all of those japanese onomatopoeia that probably could be translated with some kind of english equivalent.

>>7554160

Moogy says that Umineko is actually quite well-written, but you can't tell because the translation is so bad.

Usually I'd call bullshit, but in this case I believe him.

>>7554179
It's not true, Moogy is a retard who think that a lot of kanjis equal good writing.
Umineko is just annoying to read in moon, even most Ryuukishi fags agree to this.

>>7554179
It was decently written and flowed naturally in Japanese, and I can say that it was far more entertaining to read in Japanese than translated.

But even if you play it in Japanese it unfortunately doesn't change the fact that the story itself is shit.

>>7554179

I frankly don't know what are the japanese standards for "good writing" but the original is filled with stuff like "ugyagyagyaaaaa" "uuuuuuuuuuuooooooooooohhhhhh" "Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhh" and ellipsis ellipsis everywhere..........................................................................................
.............................................

>>7554179
>>7554185
Depends on your opinion of good but personally I don't think it was great. The characters sounded pretty unnatural a lot of the time. There was also an excessive use of ellipsis and irregular language. Some of the parts were good because of the way Nasu used the language to create new meanings between words but that didn't really happen often enough.

>>7554217
It's definitely not well-written, but it sounds more natural in Japanese than it does in english. It's passable at best.

>>7554179
>>7554187
I don't see how it "flowed naturally".
Talking about his writing the first thing I could say is that he barely has any control on his text.
It basically feel like he write everything that pass in his head.
Even in Rewrite which provoke a hilarious conflict between the main game that is written pretty normally and Lucia's route, the route he wrote, where it feels like every characters were fed crazy meds who made them go UOOOOOOOOOO every 2 minutes.
Personally I don't find that kind of writing enjoyable to read.

>>7554235
Well it wasn't good, it's just that it sounds even more retarded than what it already is in english.

>>7554148

This is the excuse I'll use my whole life for not learning Japanese.

>>7554235
Oh snap, so in rewrite all his characters are crazy?,this will be funny.
>>7554148
Wow i wanted to at least read to the finish,shitty or not.., what a waste of my time, and also their time,why translate every game than just give up, even if its shitty, they should just finish it.

>>7555001
They are finishing it. You shouldn't believe every stupid thing you hear third-hand on /jp/.

>>7553514
I actually dont understand this view.
Anyone with an ounce of intelligent will see how retarded umineko plot/implied solution is.
Now if R07 wasnt using the plot/room murder as an integral part of main story I would be ok with it. However when 90% of the VN takes place with them trying to find out who and how the murder was done perhaps it is his own fault and him going on and on/whining without love it cant be seen sound like a cop out.
And talking about love, do you guys think that the love portion of shannon/george at the start of ep2 was done well? What about maria/rosa?
Frankly speaking, they are horrible.

>>7556000
>What about maria/rosa?

Any of the parent/child bits are usually quite good. It's made interesting in retrospect when you realize that it was all fake and how Yasu and Tohya WANTED their relatives to be.

>>7556000
The Shannon/George scene was hard to endure, but I went through since I knew that everything would get better once it got to the family reunion.

>>7556000
>What about maria/rosa?
Maria and Rosa drama was my favorite part outside of beato trolling. The part of the story I hated the most was Kanon and Jessica, what a fucking borefest those two are.

>>7556477
I might've enjoyed Maria/Rosa a little tiny bit if it weren't for the fact that Maria was so insufferably annoying. I'm not sure if it would've been possible for her to be any more aggravating.

>>7556502
I grew up in a household like that, so no, Maria honestly wasn't that annoying to me.

>>7556000
>And talking about love, do you guys think that the love portion of shannon/george at the start of ep2 was done well?
It was pretty bad in my opinion same as Jessica x Kanon. Ange's past in EP4 takes the cake for me: overly long and terrible.
R07 should really hire a decent editor, his works would improve tenfold.

>>7556972
>Ange's past in EP4 takes the cake for me: overly long and terrible.

Same here. We have this story about Rokkenjima in 1986, and then suddenly we have to read about a "new" character that has no direct relation to the incident doing nothing while sulking over her tragic past. And it didn't help how it switched back and forth from 1998, 1986 and the meta-world constantly.

>>7556972
A decent editor would not help.
He basically stretch a 2episodes story into 8full blowned stories filled with shit and meta self insert whining to prolong it.
It would have been better if he just stopped all these repeat kakera nonsense while slowly giving hints about the culprit/real plot behind it.
He already said that the mystery was not the point of umiunko so what the fuck was he doing? Either concentrate on making a believable story on love and betrayal and not half assed on both making it shit.

>>7558312
An editor would help. Just take the parts about Ange and Maria in EP4: it's the exact same thing repeated ad nauseam of hours. Shit could have been reduced by half without doing any harm to the message/clues R07 wanted to convey.

I'd rather read a shorter, more intense EP than a long snorefest.

>>7556502
>I might've enjoyed Maria/Rosa a little tiny bit if it weren't for the fact that Maria was so insufferably annoying.
She's supposed to be annoying, that's the point. If she wasn't then Rosa would have no reason to be angry.