/jp/ - Otaku Culture

>I won't say that with certainty, but it seems that Claire is Shannon (meaning that she's the culprit).

Shannon=Kanon=Beatrice=Yasu=Clair=Lion

(S)he didn't kill anyone, the adults started a slaughter when they found the gold. She would have killed them if they hadn't though.

>And why didn't Battler showed up at the meeting with Rudolf in the end ? Something's not right

Good question, to the EP 8 mobile!

>How the hell did Kanon disappeared from the closed room where he switched places with Battler ? That's just impossible

Kanon/Shannon/Beatrice was already dead, took Battler's place in X twilight.

Cant wait for the umineko threads to fill /jp/ again when ep8 gets done.

>And still i thought the game really pushed me to think that way, so it looks too easy to say that she's the culprit
It's the answer episode, the mystery ends there. Don't expect a clearer answer. It IS the answer. And it was also certified by Featherine, who is Ryukishi's avatar.
That said, Shannon is actually another role the real person - Yasu plays, so technically Shannon, as well as Kanon, isn't the culprit.
Clair is just a temporary substitution for the dead Beatrice, that Bern created for the purpose of telling the tale of Beato.

>why didn't Battler showed up at the meeting with Rudolf in the end ?
That was probably not exactly as presented, but the general idea is most probably true. Yasu wanted to make her roulette, K&R killed everyone.

>How the hell did Kanon disappeared from the closed room where he switched places with Battler ?
Yasu dropped her role of Kanon and became Shannon.

>>7256484
To specify, Shannon, Beatrice and Kanon are imaginary personalities of the same person. Shannon is the "ideal servant", Kanon is the "little brother for Shanon" and Beatrice is "the one who uses magic" they're all acted out by the same person Yasu, who in the meta realm is Clair. Lion is the happiest version of them all.

>>7256484
Shannon=Kanon ? How can that be ?
If Jessica likes Kanon and George likes Shannon that's impossible, unless one of them is bisexual
...And i just thought that it could explain why in ep 6 one of them had to die so that a couple could exist

But anyway, i'm not really sure about that. Aren't there 17 people ? (with Kinzo being dead)

Also, how could a dead person lock a room from the inside ?

>>7256471
>And why didn't Battler showed up at the meeting with Rudolf in the end ? Something's not right
Because you're supposed to wonder about Battler's role in that until Bernkastel trolls you in ep8 using that

>>7256507
>>7256471
>>7256484
Im not op but how the fuck dose Kanon just"disappear", why doesn't nobody go "Holy shit, Where the fuck is kanon at?'

>>7256520
OP here, that's exactly my question

The reason why yasu can be everyone is generally accepted to be because yasu is a really good actor coupled with the fact that every single person on rokkenjima was fucking retarded

>>7256515
>...And i just thought that it could explain why in ep 6 one of them had to die so that a couple could exist
You're onto something.

Nanjo is the leader of all of this, Mark my words. This whole time he has been talking too Tetsuro Okonogi, The "true villain",who made the whole plot since years before all this happened. You guys aren't taking 1998 seriously enough.

>>7256547

>>7256520
Because they are pieces on the chessboard who act as commanded by the GM and she/he didn't give them such order. And because GM also tells you the tale and can interpret it in the way profitable for himself/herself.

>>7256515
>Shannon=Kanon ? How can that be ?

Both Shannon and Kanon are basically the imaginary friends of the same person who acts them out. They interact with eachother in this person's head.

>If Jessica likes Kanon and George likes Shannon that's impossible, unless one of them is bisexual

This person's gender is vague, hence the lust demons. Yasu can be male or female.

>...And i just thought that it could explain why in ep 6 one of them had to die so that a couple could exist

Yep, and because Yasu can't be with two people at the same time. Since Shannon = Kanon.

>But anyway, i'm not really sure about that. Aren't there 17 people ?

Battler, George, Jessica, Maria, Yasu, Kyrie, Rudolf, Krauss, Eva, Rosa, Natsuhi, Hideyosi, Chiyo, Genji, Dr. Nanjo, Gohda, Erika. She is a real person and will be returning in EP 8. Sadly.

>Also, how could a dead person lock a room from the inside ?

A million ways.

>>7256554
That doesn't change the fact that Erika didn't find him

>>7256565
She was busy shoving chopsticks up her asshole.

>>7256557
>Yasu can be male or female.

To clarify, Yasu's gender is a smaller version of the Rokkenjima catbox. In other words, Yasu is both genders at the same time, but was raised as a girl in the 'real world'.

>>7256547

1998 was just the path Ange took to reach Rokkenjima. Otherwise she would have been useless as Bern's piece. As a reader/Sorcerer of Theatregoing, 1998 provided a nice bit of background and expansion into the Umineko universe.

>>7256565
She didn't find Kanon, because he didn't 'exist' there and her theory was about Kanon and no one else. The whole duel and opening the closet was pretty metaphoric. If we had opened the closet in reality, we would probably have found Yasu there.

This is only because they understand the gameboard. This just means knowing that Shannon = Kannon et al is a prerequisite for the GM

>>7256547
>Okonogi
>mastermind

Nope, but he DID hire Amakusa to kill Ange and Kasumi so that he could gain control of the Rokkenjima fortune.

>>7256580
forgot to link to this: >>7256554

>>7256576

I'm still pissed that we don't know what Yasu really looks like.

Granted, it PROBABLY looks like Lion, but...

>>7256580
And that's what we're supposed to find out with the 4 games of Beatrice ? I guess i really suck

>>7256584
And in the end he did, you would call that a mastermind who knew what he was doing? I swear he planed everything.

Question, who took the role of Shannon before Yasu arrived? As I remember, Shannon was on the island before Yasu. Do we assume that Shannon was some temporary furniture who Yasu replaced? I think I'm forgetting something

>>7256590
She should look like Shannon, unless she wore make up from early age. Shannon is the servant that outside world perceives, regardless of how she calls herself in her head.

>>7256594

He didn't, and couldn't have, planned the Rokkenjima Incident.

That was the doing of Yasu and the servants, and one or more of the adult couples took advantage of the situation and murdered everyone. Battler may or may not have been involved in the killings.

>>7256593
You could figure out almost everything from the first 2 episodes.

>>7256593
It's a very tough riddle, but yes. As they constantly said starting from EP5, all the facts were presented by the end of Ep4. Most of us probably needed to read up until 7 to work it out

>>7256554
So about this GM and game board stuff, doesn't that mean magic exists?

>>7256602

No, Shannon has huge breasts and Yasu obviously doesn't.

Don't forget that, as
>>7256599
has, that 'Shannon' used to be another of Yasu's imaginary friends.

>>7256593
ShKanon was a prevalent theory since episode 1.
Also you need to have a vagina to understand Umineko, R07 agrees.

>>7256599
There was no "Shannon" before Yasu. That Shannon was an imaginary friend of Yasu, the elder servant who was caring for her while the rest only detested her. Shannon is basically Yasu's ideal servant version of herself.

>>7256599
She wasn't. The girl with servant name Shannon was probably given the name Sayo Yasuda in the orphanage. Other servants called her Yasu. She was lame and clumsy, so she started to think about her blessed name as her ideal, while referring to the actual self as Yasu.
So Shannon is just her first imaginary friend.

>>7256614
>No, Shannon has huge breasts

So is r07 working on umineko rei?

>>7256612

>>7256612
It's a cat box. Since magic cannot occur unless it's possible for humans, and cannot occur in front of most humans, there's no way of knowing. Unless there's a flaw in a closed room that hasn't been uncovered.

One of the interactive elements of Episode 8 is deciding whether the murders where committed by magic or not.

>>7256612
Magic exists. But there was almost no real magic in everything that Beatrice ever did. Her only true magic was bringing up Battler to the metarealm, and that was only thanks to a temporary bargain with Lambdadelta.

Every supernatural aside from the two archbitches and Featherine are illusions.

>>7256612
Gameboards=fictions. You can write some novel and make the characters in it behave like you want. Are you a wiz...witch?

>>7256614
She started wearing pads at some point. Where's a contradiction?

>>7256627
But wait, isn't Beatrice Yasu ? Wasn't she one of his/her personalities ? How can she summon Battler and create games like that

>>7256624
I hope not.

>>7256624
No idea bro

>>7256632
It's just a fiction within a fiction, nobody is summoning anyone

>>7256632
>But wait, isn't Beatrice Yasu ? Wasn't she one of his/her personalities ? How can she summon Battler and create games like that

EP 2, 4, 5. Beatrice (Yasu) made a pact with Lambdadelta.

>>7256627
>Her only true magic was bringing up Battler to the metarealm, and that was only thanks to a temporary bargain with Lambdadelta.
That's not magic. That's just Battler trying to recover from amnesia and arguing with his imaginary waifu. When he finally remembers, she dies. But he now "believes in magic", i.e. can create beings with his imagination, so he resurrects her.

>>7256612

Maybe. Maybe not. Who knows?

The truth will forever remain within the catbox.

>>7256639
>>7256641
So...who's right ?

>>7256646

Both are. That's the whole fucking point.

You can CHOOSE how to see the world. You can CHOOSE to believe in magic, or not, and no one can tell you that you're wrong.

>>7256646
It doesn't matter. That's why it's a waste of time to read it, let alone discuss it.

>>7256642
>That's just Battler trying to recover from amnesia and arguing with his imaginary waifu. When he finally remembers, she dies. But he now "believes in magic", i.e. can create beings with his imagination, so he resurrects her.

That was post EP 4. Before that the Beatrice that was trolling around was the Yasu Beatrice. Hence why she talked with herself, and gave up (the illusion of Beatrice who took on the "love Battler" aspect of Yasu, so she [as Shannon] could be free of the pain of him forgetting her) at EP 4, and then later she went poof. Goodbye liar.

The EP 5+ Beatrice was Battler's image of Beatrice, though a fake since he was not aware of the past of Beatrice aside from that Yasu=Shanon=Beatrice.

>>7256646
The essence of magic (at least the kind that is used the most) is that its a trick. Its fake. It does not exist. But if everyone believes it, it becomes "real". If you believe that its magic. Then its magic. If you say its a trick and prove it. Then its a trick. And if you're Bernkastel then you are wine.

>>7256646
Ryu doesn't give a clear answer, unfortunately. But everything "magic"-related so far had some correspondence to the real world, so magic is dependant on reality. Is it enough proof of its non-existence or not is up to you to decide.

>>7256657
No really, Battler was delusion all the time, that was R07 explanation. The fucking awesome magic was just metaphors for Battler internal fight against amnesia.

>>7256663
Citation needed.

>>7256657
It doesn't indicate that Yasu somehow got power or anything.
It only indicate that the first 2 episodes were written by Yasu and episode 3 and 4 were based on these.
The later episodes are different.

>>7256657
"Yasu Beatrice" is just and idea, dream, ideal that Yasu created inside her head. Yasu died on the island in 1986, therefore Beatrice died with her too. That was said in red in ep8.

Well at least the fake murder shit theory died since R07 said himself that Yasu was planning on murder.
But there are still a lot of retardation I see

>>7256673
Do not talk about ep.8, yet.

The next when they cry will take part in the 1700-1800s with 34 in a silent hill type horror.

>>7256673
Hoo?
What this guy said
>>7256666

Haven't read EP 8 yet.

>>7256670
>It doesn't indicate that Yasu somehow got power or anything.

The only real magic was that Beatrice could troll Battler enough with repeating stories that he remembered an insignificant (to him) promise when they were kids, then she gave up. Then Battler remembered a bit too late.

The metarealm hijinks started after EP1 which had minimal supernatural interference and obfuscation. That there was any repetition was the magic.

>>7256693
I'd love that.

>>7256695
>The only real magic
Citation needed.
Episode 1 and 2 were that way because Yasu wrote them that way, episode 1 was the "normal" murder mystery and episode 2 was the one where her imagination ran wild. That's all.

>>7256673
Insubstantial. Even a fake can become "real". Or something real can become "fake". The Beatrice of EP 1-4 was not a thousand year demon witch who made a pact with Kinzo, though she did wear that personality. She did have real magic, enough to make that silly game with Battler with the intention of trying to make him remember by showing him hints all across the four episodes. She failed. She says that again in EP 5 and Yasu confirms it in EP 7.

Magic=/= Meta world

Magic obvious doesn't exist, it's the whole fucking point of the novel.

Meta world, on other hand, it's vague.
We know Ange has meta knowledge in the magic ending and there is something weird with Featherine's age.

So yes, you can believe that everything was Toya fanfiction, our you can believe that EVERYTHING happened and Toya is Meta Battler after he was released from the game.

>>7256695
ベアトリーチェは、１９８６年１０月に、死亡した。
よって、彼女が生み出した黄金郷は、完全に滅び去った。
黄金郷に生かされていた、お前の親族たちも全員、滅び去った。
お前の父も、母も、そしてもちろん戦人も、二度とお前のところに戻り、お
前の名を呼ぶことはない。

>>7256703
>She failed. She says that again in EP 5 and Yasu confirms it in EP 7.

No, she didn't.
She won, in the end. But she died without knowing she had won.

>>7256693
Fund it. All my money.

>>7256702
EP 2, ???, Beatrice-Lambdadelta conversation. EP 4, Lambdadelta-Battler conversation. EP 5, Lambdadelta-Battler conversation, Court of Illusions.

>>7256703
>She did have real magic, enough to make that silly game with Battler
You're retarded.

>>7256699
Its funny because they look alike.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-MOleJGxdAM

>>7256710
>EP 2, ???, Beatrice-Lambdadelta conversation. EP 4, Lambdadelta-Battler conversation. EP 5, Lambdadelta-Battler conversation, Court of Illusions.

All of these indicate the fiction way though
You are just seeing everything in a straightforward way, the meta-fictional element is fucking obvious.

>>7256713
And you're calling names on the internet.

>>7256717
Obviously, there was no focus on the truth in EP 1. Intentionally.

>You are just seeing everything in a straightforward way, the meta-fictional element is fucking obvious.

The metarealm is vague. A lot of stuff that happens there (love duel, witch fights, whatever for example) is just fiction, but there are parts where there are things accomplished that could not be possible even with real world analogues, mostly revolving around someone gaining information that is not accessible in any way at the current point he/she is at the moment. Like the illusion of Beatrice that Battler created gaining knowledge of how the illusion of Beatrice that Yasu created acts, feels and knows with 100% overlap.

>Reads up on EP 8
>Will, Lion, Beatrice (?), Battler, young Ange and ANGE, Erika, Bernkastel, Dlanor. At the same place and the same time.

Oh hey, Purple Text. Can lie if its said by the culprit.

Oh boy...

>>7256762
Who are you quoting?

>>7256767
Some guy posting all sorts of delicious spoilers that I'm not going to read no I wont no I wont dammit of the untranslated EP 8.

http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/984797-umineko-no-naku-koro-ni-chiru/57670380

Screenshots seem legit.

>>7256740
Metaworld isn't magic. It's just a way to tell the story. A world of ideas, a complicated mess of many different layers of fictions. Ryukishi, writing Umineko, and we, readers, are parts of metaworld too. So some characters having some "unnatural" knowledge is just the way the author made them.
I don't know how to explain it better.

>>7256774
That unnatural knowledge is quite worthy of slapping magic on it. Not the same magic that Beatrice and Maria are talking about all the time. But when we're twisting causality and time that much and we don't have a word for it I think we can say that THAT is real magic. At least till proven wrong.

>>7256774
That's why Bern and L call us "witches" in the end of the 7th episode

>>7256774
>I don't know how to explain it better.

It's okay, R07 didn't either.

>>7256774
>>7256782
I mean

>"How the hell did you do that?!"
>"With magic of course!" haha.mp3

>"How could that character know that?!"
>"Because I said so." R07.jpg haha.mp3

>>7256793
That really needs an update with Ba-Beato\Ange saying "magic exist" and sad Bern\Erika "Okay".

Readers have been a part of the meta-world since Higurashi

>>7256680
Hate to break it to you, but that interview was mistranslated. Call back when "dreamed up an incident" stops being consistent with "wrote a murder mystery".

Seeing as how seacat threads aren't really common nowadays, I'll go ahead and ask here. Does anyone know if the anon that made the PS3fication or at least voice patch will continue with the other episodes or did it turn out to be too much work?

>>7257044

>>7257044
check his site.

>>7257168
if you mean http://umineko.jbcs.info/ he hasn't updated it in forever. only two posts are the patch and a small update shortly after

>>7257188
I believe he posted here a while ago..
I don't remember what he said tho

>>7256960
Except before "dreamed up an incident" (maybe more like "arrived at wild idea of an incident of such scale"?) it has quite a few other lines why her strong feelings is a justification for her actions.
Surely, writing a murder mystery requires to be mad.

>>7256960
He clearly said she had murderous feelings.

>The girl with servant name Shannon was probably given the name Sayo Yasuda in the orphanage

I like that way of thinking.

Though I still think the whole series are filled with too much allowed trickery. Like you can have Battler actually see Kanon, and then the explanation is something silly as "He really saw Shannon, but since she was playing Kanon I was allowed to describe the event as him seeing Kanon. When he called out Shannon, I conveniently translated this part of the story as him calling out Kanon."

At least that is the impression I get from all the characters acting like the pretend people exist.

>>7258768
Yeah, that's my gripe with it too. "lol Kinzo is actually dead I just showed his sprite and had him have complex dialogues because Natsuhi for whatever reason thinks he did even though she knows he's dead"
I mean it's fine if you think shit like that is great mystery, but for me it's not my cup of tea, at all, just the author misleading you in a bad way.

Tl;dr
Magic exists, but in the end it is completely irrelevant.
Battler is dead, but he's still alive.
Yasu is the culprit, but isn't the culprit.
Everyone is bad, but everyone is good.
If the reader doesn't swallow all of R07's cum he lacks love.

R07 set up a plot where everyone can make his own finale assuming that Shkanon is implemented and then wrote the last couple of episodes according to one of the least popular theories on the net..

>>7258768
>Like you can have Battler actually see Kanon
Battler is the only one who can't be controlled like that in the first episodes, because he's the detective. What he sees is true, in a sense that he doesn't lie.

>>7258812
What's the matter? Can't handle something that isn't pure black and white?

>>7258812
Before someone starts greentexting about Rudolf and Kyrie I invite you to consider the fact that they can be easily replaced with Eva and Hideyoshi, since most of the scenes are like Schroedinger's catboxes and the red text can be easily bypassed. The same for Rosa.
After all, most of the episodes' setups are completely irrelevant to the plot since they are fiction and even for the last episodes we can have doubts.

Rudolf and Kyrie can be regarded as culprits since it's shown, but if R07 would have thought of it as too easy, he could have replaced them with someone else due to the quantity of holes he had purposedly left in the plot.
Still, WE lack love.

>>7258829
I don't like when the author isn't honest with the reader, that's all.

>>7258830
That's because those culprits aren't the part of mystery for you to solve. You had your mystery, where the culprit is Yasu and can't be easily replaced.

>>7258812
>R07 set up a plot where everyone can make his own finale assuming that Shkanon is implemented and then wrote the last couple of episodes according to one of the least popular theories on the net..

But there is foreshadowing for amnseia Battler

>>7258830
>Before someone starts greentexting about Rudolf and Kyrie I invite you to consider the fact that they can be easily replaced with Eva and Hideyoshi
Yeah, Ange killed herself screaming in denial about how she'll keep thinking of Eva as being the culprit, because Eva was the culprit. Makes perfect sense.

>>7258845
>Yeah, Ange killed herself screaming in denial

Is that really how it happened? Or perhaps one of the other possibilities is true! Or one of the other other!

>>7258851
What kind of proof do you want then? No matter what would be presented for you, you'll just say the same.

>>7258863
Which is precisely the point the guy you were responding to was trying to make.

>>7258842
Could be purely metaphorical, but then again who cares.
It's the whole shitty point of Umineko, everything is just smoke and mirrors and then you fill in the gaps with what you like.

>>7258872
You can disbelieve and deny everything in every other story or even real life itself too, if you really want. Doesn't mean, that people can't find something considered truth.

>>7258875
In Ep 4 there are references to Magic:the gathering, videogames, references to visual novel and Beatrice speaks about being modeled to a tsundere character.

Then, the point isn't brought up anymore. But it could have used as a hint about the whole plot was a game that Battler was playing!
That could have explained with people were allowed to die multiple times, or why everytime there was a different setup.
Do you get my point?
R07 dropped a lot of different plot hooks everywhere, and then used only the ones he found suited while leaving all the other vague and unsolved.
This is not plotting, this is not foreshadowing, this is not honesty: this is called writing things on the moment and according to what the others are writing on forums etc.
While I don't like it at all and I find it cheap, the thing that I cannot stand is that R07 spent half of a episode comparing his work to all the mystery classics, telling us that we have to trust him and shit.
You cannot trust a writer who makes things up in response to your deductions.

I think that this happened because people started to theorize about Shkanon around ep 3 while R07 believed that his trick would have been keep secret until the end, so he felt like creating something new on the run but obviously failing because he "had to" make 8 episodes instead of keeping it shorter and coherent.

>>7258917
So how does anything of this change the *mystery* aspect of the story? Did he change the answer? No. It's still just shkannontrice, even after, as you say, people started to notice it rather early. Speaking of which, maybe he reads some other theories, but he said that people were confused after ep2, so he had to change many things in ep3.

>>7258950
> but he said that people were confused after ep2, so he had to change many things in ep3.
No, he said people figured out lots of stuff that was going to be on later episodes already, so he made some revelations earlier.

>>7258950
>Did he change the answer?
I think so.
It was Shkanon + X, were Shkanon is just a tool for the narrator to trick on the setup and X is a "hidden mastermind" which can always change according to R07 tastes.

>he said that people were confused after ep2, so he had to change many things in ep3.
I don't think so. There's no point in oversimplifying things for the readers if the ending isn't made clear, assuming that this was his aim (which it was not).
He changed things because a) the very first fundation of epitaph was already solved by someone between ep2 - 3
b) Shkanon, his golden trick, was figured just a little after
So his series was already almost over: not a bad thing since a mystery is supposed to be solved, but he, instead of closing everything with a good pacing, decided to create at least 4 pointless episodes.
The baffling thing is that these pointless episodes are exactly the ANSWER arc: they should bring us the answers, right?
No. The fifth set up a trick to turn the reader far away from the truth (the shkanon trick) and doesn't even conclude itself, more than half of the sixth is pointless wankery on how good he is and the rest is what the ep 5 was already supposed to be, the seventh and the eight instead change completely setup and talk about a complete different answer from the question arcs. An answer built on the moment.

>>7258816
>Battler is the only one who can't be controlled like that in the first episodes, because he's the detective. What he sees is true, in a sense that he doesn't lie.

But he is portrayed as a poor detective that could be easily deceived. He only serves as an opinion for the reader, without any ability at all to tell truth from fake.

He seem to believe anything you tell him, except that magic did it.

>>7259049
It doesn't matter. "Doesn't lie" means that if we read that he's talking with Shannon it means that he talked with Shannon and that actually happened.

All of you guys lack love.

>>7259054
When "love" in the Umineko context means "a vagina" then when you say "guys" it's kind of assumed.

>>7258917
Considering how all those narrator anachronisms showing up in every single episode ended up being an incredibly central clue about the nature of the game boards, I'm not sure you want to cite that as an example.

>>7259066
Does it mean that Battler lost his penis and got a vagina at some point?

>>7259384
Yes.

>>7259408
I'd hit it.

>7256590

Well, I wouldn't be so sure. We will most likely see Yasu, amongst other spriteless characters, in the upcoming manga chapters for EP7.

>>7262486
Ryu probably did so intentionally, to fuck with your head, rather than just being lazy. It's a significant part of the early chapters of her back story and it wouldn't be "not exposing the shabby figure" if she was just portrayed clearly.

So they could as well not show her in the manga too.

>>7262502

Yeah, I understand that much. I'm just curious to see how they'll handle that in manga format, since it's not like we're just reading text. Will they just draw Yasu's parts in first person view?

Also, I am curious to see how Asumu is portrayed. She does appear briefly in a flashback if I recall. I am actually looking forward to a lot of scenes. Kinzo's past, Yasu solving the epitaph, the tea party, and the final confrontation with Bern.