/jp/ - Otaku Culture

characters are all girls = only men will play this = sexist = shit

No, because Touhou fans are primarily males, so Touhous exist solely for males' enjoyment. Besides, the frilly dresses and silly hats they wear are forced on them by patriarchal dress code.

Etc, etc.

I like how it normalizes the female gender. Even to a male like me it's become transparent.

>feminist perspective
you lost me

The funny thing is that a feminist is a person who believes that females are equal to males.

So, honestly, you'd expect any 1st world country human to be a feminist these days.

As for Touhou in a genus analytical perspective, I think that there's more to it than just "they get to kick ass, they are not sexualized"... I enjoy Touhou a lot for those two reasons, but I would never claim Touhou to be some kind of perfectly politically correct portrayal of females. Though I admit many Touhou characters might make for interesting and positive role-models for girls.

<They are pretty much not sexualized whatsoever.

In the games yes, in the fandom......

Negative: total lack of gender-conscious male/female interaction sidesteps important issues

>>7083515
>interesting and positive role-models for girls

"When I grow up, I want to drink booze and beat people up."

>>7083515
>The funny thing is that a feminist is a person who believes that females are equal to males.
But that's wrong.
They think that women are superior

Another negative: pervasive silly outfits may give young girls distorted and unattainable image aspirations which will harm them later in life

>>7083515
Also, yeah, I was going to add, the fact that there are barely any males actually speaks negatively for Touhou in a "feminist" perspective. This is because we don't know how males and females interact in Gensoukyou, nor how equal they in reality are.

>>7083509
>Besides, the frilly dresses and silly hats they wear are forced on them by patriarchal dress code.

This is interesting, but at the same time, in the case of fictional characters (as well as real people at times) can we really judge them by what they wear, if they have chosen to do so by free will? A girl in a frilly dress is not more discriminated than a girl who's not wearing a frilly dress because of the dress itself.

It would appear that the dress-code is Gensoukyou specific, and seeing as almost everyone follows it, can it really be considered discriminating?

Also, all the powerful people in Gensokyo are female. It's a complete matriarchy!

>>7083529
In actuality, the definition of a feminist is someone who things that women have equal rights to men. Abusing and redefining the term has happened though.

>>7083515
>many Touhou characters might make for interesting and positive role-models for girls.

Like who? We've got bitches going around beating people up for fun, evil cunts trying to take over / nuke the world, and common thieves and drunks who fuck people over to suit themselves.

>>7083532
>It would appear that the dress-code is Gensoukyou specific, and seeing as almost everyone follows it, can it really be considered discriminating?

At a risk of sounding like a total asshole (and loving it): your mistake is thinking about this logically. Try looking at it from a feminist perspective instead.

But seriously now, we really have to define feminism first. Because someone, somewhere, is going to find a way to bitch about everything using a pseudo-feminist newspeak and there's nothing we can do about it.

>>7083542
China, Keine, Byakuren

>>7083542
Touhou girls are strong girls that fend for themselves, they are independent and make choices for themselves. Kanako is a strong and dependable leader, Marisa is a devoted and self-sustaining researcher, etc

Not to mention many of them have troubled pasts that they have managed to overcome.

Also yeah, it's not like there are many Touhous that make perfect role-models for anything, but I still think they are a refreshening alternative to what most of what popular-culture today has to offer...

I have this idea that all the men are staying at home to run the farm, lift heavy stuff, open pickle jar lids, reach things on high shelves. Oh wait, every girl can fly. Forget that last one.

Anyway, Danmaku makes a man's way of fighting useless:
Swords --> getting shot before ever coming within range, while target floats further away from you.
Arrows --> danmaku can be shot many at a time, and in all directions.

Finally, with such a small population, methods of fighting which leave people still alive and capable of having tea are prioritized, therefore spell cards were created.
With that in mind, a girl's smaller frame (hitbox), and less weight are prioritized over man's strength.

>>7083554
I am a feminist by traditional standards, and yeah, I see what you did there. You're a total asshole and I'm loving it.

As much as I am interested in genus and feminism I'd never study it or become too actively involved in it. Because I feel it would break me as a person with all the fucking numbnuts, both male and female, out there.

>>7083569
Kanako is a dictator, Marisa is a thief.

Only one I can think of is Keine, being a teacher, but even she goes insane every full moon.

>>7083579
Canonically, it's the men in Gensokyo that do the serious fighting; they just don't show up in the vidya.

>>7083554
Not the person you're replying to but I think feminism should be about men and women having the same freedoms, rights and responsibilities up to the point where biological differences come in.

And I'm saying "responsibilities" because it is the term feminists talk about the least. A lot of them want everything men have, but few actually properly shoulder the "male" troubles without the usual "MY FRAGILE FEMALE BODY/PSYCHE/MIND/HERP/DERP CAN'T TAKE THIS I'M A DELICATE FLOWER"

Also animal Touhous in lingerie.

>>7083588

Your rectum is not a valid source of canon.

>>7083582
>Kanako is a dictator, Marisa is a thief.

That's EMPOWERMENT!

>>7083582
Kanako gives the example that even ladies can became powerful dictators?

Also [citation needed] I guess.

>You think feminists would approve of 東方?
No.
I've already read people saying that the official games were for lolicons. It doesn't matter how non-sexualized and powerful they are, they will be criticized simply because they're female characters in a video game. And like it has been said, feminists will always find something stupid to say such as "Frilly dresses are degrading." or some shit like that.
You can't let yourself be trapped by common sense in the real world.
Personally, I don't view Touhou characters as either females or males but simply as "Touhou characters": they can be very manly at times, and act very feminine at others, but no real categorization is adequate.

>>7083532
>A girl in a frilly dress is not more discriminated than a girl who's not wearing a frilly dress because of the dress itself.

There still seems to be pressure from somewhere to conform to a template. Touhous of all statuses (and I mean power, species, intelligence, everything) generally follow the same rules of traditional feminity and modesty. It's noteworthy that the most antisocial Touhou, Mokou, wears pants (Wriggle is probably just a chance outlier).

Danmaku is a mating ritual. The male Touhou releases wave after wave of bullets (sperm) in an attempt to hit (fertilize) the female Touhou's hitbox (egg)

>>7083613
Correction: Medicine is the most antisocial Touhou, but nobody cares about her.

>>7083620
But all Touhous are female.. are you saying that some Touhous are male-female and others are female-female?

>>7083620

But there is no male touhou...

>>7083613
That's indeed noteworthy, but at the same, as long as it's a choice made by the person wearing the clothes, does it really matter, as long as society still treats all the individuals equally? For example, where I live, most girls wear pants, mostly jeans, so a girl wearing a dress would stick out. But that doesn't mean that it makes a noteworthy difference in the long run; people might stop to look at her an extra time, that's it.

Of course, we are always influenced by the social signals other's send out (clothing included), but that doesn't have anything do with feminism, at least not directly.

>>7083627
>>7083634
Is Rinnosuke not a male Touhou?

>>7083644
Rinnosuke cannot (or just does not want) into danmaku. You can consider him sterile.

>>7083613
>There still seems to be pressure from somewhere to conform to a template. Touhous of all statuses (and I mean power, species, intelligence, everything) generally follow the same rules of traditional feminity and modesty.

>>http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Meiji_University_Touhou_lecture
>Non-serious Q&A
>Q. Don't they feel ashamed for flying with skirts?
>A. No one is looking at that, anyway.
>* Also he said that making trousers needs a professional dressmaker, so it's no wonder that skirts are more popular in there.
It's not very serious, but it's canon.

>>7083657
So pants are a status symbol? Anyway, who made Mokou's pants?

>>7083642
Well since Gensokyo is run by women, I don't think it's harmful, just interesting. It seems like they don't mind standing out though, or rather, that they choose unique silly outfits TO stand out, but still won't break tradition to do so.

>>7083657
Kinda funny, since most of those dresses would be a hell of a lot harder to make than pants. Maybe not pants of equal silliness. Hmm.

>>7083668
Who runs Gensokyo, exactly?

>>7083634
>>7083644
In during new friends who don't rememeber Konngara, Genji & co, Myouren, etc.

>>7083657
Bloomers+skirts would make it easier to move when you're flying, right? Pants seem like they might limit movement... At least, pants that hug the leg would.

>>7083666
I'd say some lunarian guy made Mokou's pants. Perhaps pants are in fact extremely expensive in Gensôkyô because only some Lunarians know how to craft them?
That's silly, I know.

>>7083506
I think op meant TRUE fems, not streotype fems.
as in, not 'man r bad hurrr' but more like 'women are not respected as they should be'.

>>7083509
It's like saying that because soccer has mainly male fans soccer is sexist.
And those dresses are not degrading just because they are pretty.

>>7083634
>>7083627

Touhous lack sexual dimorphism and appear as human females regardless of genetic gender.

>>7083676
We do not know if anyone specifically runs Gensoukyou, instead, it seems that Gensoukyou is maintained through a careful power-balance between many different fractions that co-exist and co-operate to meet their own, and Gensoukyou's needs.

And incidentally, all known major influential beings are, or appear to be, female.

>>7083530
No more harmful than the apple-bottom jeans and the boots with da furr

>>7083712
Why did I laugh

>>7083707
Tenma's gender is still unknown.

Unzan here. Why does everyone keep making like I don't exist? Is it because of my glorious pink color?

Tapp'd every heterosexual ass in Gensokyo, just so you know.

They are all somewhat pleasant looking and feminine. Feminists wouldn't approve unless at least half of them were overweight and butch.

>>7083720

Why hello there, Ichirin's glorified dildo!

>>7083720
...Even the heterosexual asses of men?

>>7083717
True, you got me there.

>>7083722
how could you into overweight if you danmaku all the time?

ps. Ghosts can't overweight.

>>7083722
>They are all somewhat pleasant looking and feminine.

>>7083722
This: >>7083745

And for overweight, you have Sangessei.

The mating ritual of the modern Touhou is complex and deep. During periods of great stress, usually brought on by environmental events such as unusual fog or violent weather patterns a Touhou will become agitated from normal behavior and take to the sky in search of a mate. When a possible suitor is discovered a terse verbal exchange is made in which the two Touhous evaluate the willingness to mate of the other party. If both parties are prepared to reproduced they begin the complex mating dance of the Touhou.
They release haploid gametophytes called "danmaku" in a semi-random pattern over an extended period of time. This danmaku is comparable to the way in which plants release large amounts of pollen over a wide area. However it also serves another purpose. Much like the peacock's plume the way in which a Touhou arranges danmaku beautifully demonstrates the sexual fitness of a potential mate. If a danmaku reaches an egg, sometimes called a "hit box" then that Touhou will typically become submissive and follow the now dominant partner to a new location for tea, a necessary nutrient for the growing child.
Due to the semi-random nature of danmaku based reproduction breeding there are sometimes accidental fertilization, resulting in unusual combinations of mates, also known as "crack pairings."

An acquaintance of mine is female and she likes Touhou, but she is bisexual, and her dream is to become Youmu and be harassed by Yukari and Yuyuko.

But without doubt this game is aimed at the male audience, dem delicious lolis/hags, you must sexualize them.

>>7083758
>But without doubt this game is aimed at the male audience, dem delicious lolis/hags, you must sexualize them.
More like "ZUN can't draw breasts and muscles".

>>7083720
>Tapp'd every heterosexual ass in Gensokyo, just so you know.
That's nothing special, /jp/ is full of virgins.

The main problem (from that perspective) is that the characters are all very cute and nonthreatening to a male audience. Even though they have agency they're still like little dolls.

>>7083808
That's the problem I see with these things. Why can't girls be cute and wear frilly dresses?
Would being ugly and wearing pants make touhous more efficient?

Having important roles most of the time doesn't collide with looking good. Fucking ugly whales are deforming feminism goals.

>>7083808
Only neo-feminists would prioritize appearance over skills.

>>7083827
>Having important roles most of the time doesn't collide with looking good.

Yeah, well, you know that's just, like, your opinion man.

>>http://www.vanguardparty.com/articles/starcraft.html
ahahahahahohwow.png

>>7083878
> the zerg are women

>>7083878

>The Protoss are what many developing boys with to be. They are powerful, honorable warrior-philosophers. They are described as perfection of essence, but not of form (Alternately to the Zerg who are described as perfection of form who are seeking perfection of essence

Bitch not only doesn't know what she's talking about (most Protoss are xenophobic dogmatic assholes), but she also reversed the Purities that the Protoss and Zerg have. DO SOME RESEARCH BITCH

>>7083833
I was talking about personality and behavior as much as appearance.

Femanon here. The fact that Touhous exists for reasons that have nothing to do with a man or his agenda is feminist enough. Who cares what kind of awesome frilly dresses they're wearing?

>male agenda
Oh boy, here we go.

>>7083933
We ain't going nowhere.

>>7083924
ZUN is a man, what about his agenda?

Ah, but his agenda is danmaku. That's right.

>>7083933

Ah, sorry for the misconception. I'm referring to fiction, not reality. I don't actually believe in that male agenda bs.

>>7083839

Well yeah, it's my opinion on how things should be. Why would a frilly dress bother a woman who is managing a firm, for example?

>>7083933
>male agenda
>picture of a trap

Clever, anon.

>>7083982
The same reason why a frilly dress would bother a man who is managing a firm.

>>7083496
Wait, we were supposed to give a shit about post modern feminist bullshit?

>>7084220

Nothing?

Frilly dresses as the ones most touhous have are not unconfrotable. Those are not the kind that would need petit coats or some bothering extra stuff.
I have wear frillier dresses than that, and they are more confortable than pants.

>>7084288
Really? Where do you get your frilly dresses?

>- They are pretty much not sexualized whatsoever.
Uhh....

>>7083509

If this were /u/ you'd be crucified for saying that. They think Touhou was made for female enjoyment.

>>7084352

Shops. They are not easy to find but you can if you search well enough. Some of touhou's dresses are not that frilly, for example Cirno's is pretty simple.

>>7084360
Obviously going by the canon games. Not fanon bullshit.

>>7084377
But we all know /u/ is full of shit anyway. Nobody likes them.

>>7084377
Touhou fans: (sample size 20326 people)
male 18485 90.94%
female 1841 9.06%

>>7084395
Now, you take out all the secondaryfags and compare that to statistics about shmup players.

>>7083582
Kanako held a country wide conquest and united most of the native Gods under her.

Marisa is a free spirit that does whatever the fuck she wants and has become a heroic legend by hard work.

The most important thing about Touhou from a feminist perspective is the fact that they are independent of men with women officials running the society.

>>7084399
Only 1.98% have not played a single game. Only the guys who did the poll can make queries (if they still have the individual votes saved)

>>7084406
Playing a game once doesn't make you a primary.

>>7083579
Isn't danmaku just a magical laser light show, though?

>>7084391
>Nobody likes them.

Pretty much. If it was up to them 4chan would be a feminist imageboard and any hint of being a male would get you banned.

>>7084459
as in, it doesn't do any actual damage and is essentially a sport.

>>7084464
It probably does some amount of damage, it's just that Touhous tend to be pretty durable.

>>7083496

We already got a official statement why there are only girls showing up in the games.

Girls are the only ones to develop powerful mystic abilities because they are more mysterious to us in the real world.
Or at least that is Zun's excuse for wanting to make games with little girls.

I don't think feminists would like the reasoning that Touhous are girls because their real life counterpart doesn't make any sense.

>>7084515
official /jp/ QUALITY statement

>>7084515
I thought we only see girls doing danmaku because it appeals to Gensokyo's female population. Nothing was said on how males compete or fight, but I guess with superhuman strength and fortitude, they just bash each other up and then have a beer or ten. At least that's what I'd do if I could heal a broken arm in a couple of days.

Actually, I don't think Youkai even have a gender. They just take whatever form is the most appealing to them, and they wear real clothes for the same pointless reason that the Prismrivers use instruments altough they can play music without them (I'm sure this last sentence is canon but I don't recall where I read it).
This makes sense, because, for instance, Unzan uses danmaku and has the appearance of a male, and Tatara Kogasa is of gender "Umbrella".

>>7084543
The reason males don't compete or fight is because they can't compete with the girls.

>>7084532
>someone who hasn't read the "ZUN Speaks" segment in THwiki even after nice anons translated that stuff

It's indeed canon that they simply don't develop them.

>>7084559
The Prismrivers can play (their) instruments without touching them, but they still need an instrument.

Some youkai such as Kogasa may be genderless, but the animals (Chen, Ran), magicians (formerly human) and fairies who appeared in the games are female.

>>7084563
>someone who can't post sources of said translation

>>7084559
Maybe.
Even Zun himself differentiates only between males and females/youkai.
He puts youkai and girls into one category.
Only the latter two can comprehend the beauty of danmaku or something.

>>7084568
Fairies are genderless. They don't reproduce just like the majority of youkai. They come into being.

>>7084581
You've never seen their genitals. They will always look like girls and that's what matters.

>>7084568
> >>7084559
> The Prismrivers can play (their) instruments without touching them, but they still need an instrument.
OK, so that was just some glitch in my brain.

>>7084598
Wait, no, I was right!

>>http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Perfect_Cherry_Blossom:_Afterword
>♪９．幽霊楽団　～ Phantom Ensemble
>By the way, poltergeists and phantoms as we Japanese think of them are a little different. They're the most pedestrian of the foreign spirits. They can hold musical performances without using their hands or feet or instruments, but they're not theremins.
>And even though they can make sound without instruments, they use them. As pointless as that is, it's absolutely wonderful. After all, ghosts themselves are pointless in the first place.

Depends.
Post modern feminists seems more centered on intersectionality, I'd imagine a lot of them would have issues with RACIAL UNDERREPRESENTATION and the prejudice that each group holds against one another (fairies vs. youkai vs. gods vs. catfish etc.) But if we're talking about first wavers, I doubt they'd have given a shit, seeing a group of women LIVING THE DREAM would have been sufficient.

>>7084568
MAG-Net Interview, somewhere in the 3rd-5th part. The guy asks him why there are only little girls in the games and he gives that answer.

>>7084595
They look like girls, but why would they need a vagina and ovaries? They don't use it.
Though I like to think of them as real lolis too. It would be creepy to have something missing down there.

>>7084614
Well, female gender is, sort of, a "default setting" of biology. If and only if the male flag is set in the optional Y chromosome, then the gender is male.

>>7083496

Without reading any other post in the thread: No.

>>7084607
Are you sure that's not a mistranslation?
>楽器を手も足も使わずに自由に演奏しますが、テルミンではありません
。

>>7084614
>They look like girls, but why would they need a vagina and ovaries?
Pleasure? Fairies are known to imitate human behavior after all.

>>7083496
No men, no interest for womans, this answer you question?

>>7084657
Google translate:
楽器を手も足も使わずに自由に演しますが
The freedom to play the instrument without using hands and feet.

Wish I could understand moonrunes, I don't know who to trust.

inb4 it says "The pleasure of being cummed inside".

>>7084657
Pleasure exists so that we reproduce, not the other way round.
And no, they are not are known to imitate human behavior.

>>7084703
Yes, they are. They only eat food and drink tea/coffee because they saw humans do it. Then they steal from the humans and try it themselves.

>>7084657
>imitate human behavior

Even if they do, it doesn't change the fact that they don't reproduce and thus wouldn't get pleasure from doing so, this being said, fairies don't need the genitals naturally so they wouldn't develop them in the first place.

>>7084782
They don't need to nourish themselves, yet derive pleasure from it, your point is invalid.

If it's not logical, there's only one thing you need to remember. Magic.

femanon. I think touhou is cute because I like the character designs, they're lolita-esque, feminine, and for the most part modest.

>>7084936
For the most part?

I don't like how characters remind me of choose your touhou waifu game and ZUN is trying too hard to do everything moe kawaii girl doing kawaii things. I don't like "everyone is girl" and I'm sure that few male characters with equal danmaku rights and powers would make it more girl friendly and would make everything less sexual.

>>7084970
>moe kawaii girl doing kawaii things
Beating each-other up for no reason and getting piss drunk is now moe moe kawaii?

>>7084970
I think adding more male characters NOW will have the opposite (harem) effect. (or girls ganging up on the males)

Looking at the canonical material, Touhou is, in many ways, everything I've ever wanted.

I think, that in japanese media, there is a severe lack of female characters who are allowed to be cute, strong, modestly dressed and dependable at the same time. Sure, you can find a few here and there, but Touhou universe consists almost solely of them. That is, girls that don't "suffer" from being females. They possess a good balance of traits that are stereotypical and non-stereotypical for females.

As for there barely being any males, I enjoy this part too. Touhou doesn't need males to fill any particular roles, the females play those roles perfectly anyway. Maybe the lack of males is something that speaks negatively for Touhou from a feministic perspective, but Touhou is just meant to be entertainment, so I couldn't care less. I don't want males. I want cute girls. Is this so wrong? Also, as much as I hate making a point out of it I'm a femanon.

Protip: Most normal women enjoy feminine things. Feminists have just brainwashed people to think otherwise.

>>7084803
Wrong. They need food. That's a fact.
They were made/developed so that they could satisfy this need for food.
But they don't reproduce, thus they have no need for reproductory organs nor pleasure from reproducing.

>>7085135
too easy

>妖精は、実は食事を取る必要がないが、人間が美味しそうに食事をする
のを真似て、人間と同じ物を食べる。
>Fairies don't really need to eat, but they see the way humans deliciously eat their meals, and copy them and eat the same things as humans.

>>7085142
Doesn't change at the initial argument.

Touhou's complete lack of males is concurrent with the same reason that other males in many VNs are faceless voiceless phantoms, or main characters are typical hair in the face no personalities. It's all so you can insert yourself into Gensokyo as the typical Nanashi and exploit their relationships and tensions into any sexual fantasy you can imagine. The "families" exist for exploiting fantasies for repeated group sex without any intraspecific competition from other males, as after all it is a fantasy and you can insert yourself you can also become the only sexually viable male. Real women are marginalized and tossed aside as unreasonable expectations are forces upon them and the wealth of material both canonical and otherwise creates a personality at least as real to most of the young male audience that would have enough esoteric internet/weaboo knowledge to be this familiar with touhou.

Basically, touhou contradicts post-modernist womyn feminism by creating an entire alternate reality where the problems of real women are shorn away and replaced with a cotton candy fantasy wonderland and that's why it's fucking awesome.

>>7085151
You had an argument?

>>7084980
I don't know about kawaii, but it certainly is moe.

Hell, even genocide is moe. Youkai moe.

>>7085131
Protip: But don't like way how Japanese put it and how they equalize everything.

>>7085155
You let ZUN set your moe standards

>>7085135
Since fairies are spirits of nature, they don't need extremities or faces, yet they have them. Now what, nigger?

>>7085153
Only secondaries actually fap to Touhou.

>>7085179
The obvious conclusion is that nature favors little girls over other forms.

>>7085153
No.
Learn to Zun.
>>7085179
>>/b/

>>7085153
It's not as if ZUN made the Touhou games so that lonely losers would have a bunch of imaginary girls to fap to.

But this does ring true to most of the subcategory of erotical fanworks.

Also

All fiction is glorified in one way or another. Because it's not real, it's fiction. Touhou is of course the same.

>>7085131
You're just being controlled by the patriarchy.

>>7085131
A thousand times this.

>>7083496
Who cares whether a bunch of ugly, fat, unfeminine pseudo-women disapproved of Touhou?

Hell, feminist shouldn't even have the right to speak, but they've still managed to brainwash nearly all civilization.

>>7083515
>you'd expect any 1st world country human to be a feminist these days.
Yeah, just as I'd expect everyone with at least one eye and a working brain (IE. a brain that isn't full of propaganda) to be an anti-feminist.

>>7085290
>they've still managed to brainwash nearly all civilization.

If only. But I guess you've never thought critically about anything you've seen your entire life, so.