/jp/ - Otaku Culture

>>6927203
She didn't.

>>6927239

This

All she did was planning an innocent fake murder mystery, it's not her fault the adults (with a mention of Kyrie and Rudol) are crazy douches

>Girl

>>6927247
Yep, she also didn't set a web of bombs throughout the island.

>>6927292

The bomb is a symbol of determination, remember Kinzo

She was going to turn if off once the mystery was over

>>6927292
Did you even read ep7? The bombs were remains of an old military base, the clock trigger was made by Kinzo.

>>6927252
Any proof that she isn't? I like homolust and all but she's a girl to me even as Lion.

>>6927247
not this shit again

>>6927295
If she genuinely intended a fake murder mystery party she would not have activated the bombs. Because even if she planned to turn them off again there is still a big risk of somehow failing to do that, or the mechanism malfunctioning.

>>6927354
But she didn't activate it.

>>6927295
>She was going to turn if off
>>6927366
>she didn't activate it.

Make up your mind.

>>6927370
I'm not >>6927295

In case you guys don't realise it, facilitating a dangerous situation (such as giving a gun to suicidal person) is a crime in itself.

>>6927366

She was the only one that knew about the bomb, other than Genji, etc, but why would they active it?
Again, it's a symbol of determination.

>>6927324

I'm sorry, but she's threatened as martyr and a saint by everyone, even planning to mass murder people made you an insane bitch.

Battler apologized to her, and we know he would never forgive easily. He also said he wasn't going to forget all the murders she did in ep IV. Do you really think he would forgot about his promise to Ange for a crazy bitch that was going to massacre his family?

>>6927432
"oh I never met my parents and my childhood love abandoned me... I know what I'll do: I'll mount a huge scheme of fake murders to decide my fate!"

Sounds pretty crazy to me.

>>6927432
The culprits (Kyrie, Rudolf) activated it, after she explained to the adults how it works. It's a part of the headship, that she surrendered to them, because they solved the epitaph.

>>6927450
"oh I never met my parents and my childhood love abandoned me... I know what I'll do: I'll massacre everyone to decide my fate and maybe find my love!"

Sounds better, right?

>>6927450

What tied Battler and Beatrice was mystery.

Battler even said to her that if he was the detective he would surely look into the character motive. George and Jessica were probably part of her roulette too.

It's not really more crazy than "i'm going to do a murder roulette, despite the fact that murdering everyone entire family will make everyone hate me"

>>6927454
>The culprits (Kyrie, Rudolf) activated it, after she explained to the adults how it works. It's a part of the headship, that she surrendered to them, because they solved the epitaph.
>He believes in Bern!

Regardless of her guilt, I still don't understand this jump from an amorous dilemma to an (fake or not) elaborate murderous game. Even if you take >>6927467's word, she didn't really have to do anything dangerous to create a mystery.

>>6927473
>greentext
>reaction
>>>/a/
>>>/v/
Read the ep8, faggot. >>6927056>>6927233

Personally, i blame Natsuhi

>>6927488
Go away, Erika.

It's obvious that the true culprit is the gold itself. It turns whoever finds it into a mass murderer.

>>6927493
Natsuhi IS guilty of two attempted murders.

>>6927493

One word: Cliff

The gold causes Rokkenjima Syndrome and makes everyone go crazy.
Symptoms include murdering all those you love.

>>6927522
Yeah, I mean, everyone is so centred in the main mystery that they forget about what Natsuhi did. Any marginally fair court would convict her,

>>6927527
It all started when Beatrice the first died. I think she might've been a Queen Carrier of sorts. Remember Kinzo went mad at that point.

>>6927537

Your grampa theory was bullshit, you should know this already, Takano

>>6927305

She's a girl, with a fake vagina and everything

>>6927531
Statue of limitations.

I was just watching the anime (while waiting on episode 8 translation) and was reminded that the two first were signed as Maria, and we got confirmed that the writing was the same as in her diary.

However, did we ever get to know that it wasn't Yasu's writing in the book that was confirmed? Since it was shown that Yasu wrote in the diary as well.

This idea mostly based on the fact that a nine year old girl like Maria would be terrible at writing mystery.

Perhaps it was even shown later that it was infact Yasu and I forgot about that.

>>6927944
Wow dude, you're onto something here.

>>6927944
So you mean to say..
That it wasn't Maria who wrote the letters?
My lord!

>>6927488
Why are you blaming Natsuhi.

Krauss is the idiot, also, I'm betting that he's impotent too but Natsuhi was blamed because lolsexism

>>6927531
Well, we don't know exactly what happened.

Maybe she did push the servant, or maybe it and the baby fell off the cliff by accident and she merely blames herself.

>>6927305
Natsuhi's child, the one she remembers from pre-cliffing, was a son - Natsuhi, Yasu, and Will all agreed. It's post-cliffing that Yasu begins to be portrayed as female/think of herself as female.

Personally, I think Lion/Yasu was born as intersex, with the cliffing screwing things up worse and allowing Yasu to believe she was female before Genji and Nanjo dropped the bomb - because Lion still has a gender complex and just kind of rolls with the idea that in an alternate life he was raised as female, but thinking they're just simply straight-out female makes the least sense with everything. They have what is portrayed to be a specific male/female divided gender issue, nothing to do with reproduction or anything. Yasu is never shown to be remotely hung up on babies in any incarnation. Her concern is with romantic love.

>this body that can't even love
Meh, I like to believe the fall damaged his body seriously, genitals included, and a lack of testosterone led to her mental state when she grew up.

>>6928116
Because of Will, I get the impression "Lion" would still be attracted to guys, regardless of being raised male or female.

...but then again, it IS Will.

>>6927989

Yea, they are clearly trying to trick me. But I'm not so dumb!

>>6928043
>Maybe she did push the servant, or maybe it and the baby fell off the cliff by accident and she merely blames herself.

Yeah, the baby she hated and couldn't stand "accidentally" fell from a cliff when Natsuhi was near.

Yeah.

>>6928066
>Yasu is never shown to be remotely hung up on babies in any incarnation. Her concern is with romantic love.
But Shannon and Kanon duel not for just love, but to be able to make a 'marriage'. This probably includes not just romantic love.

>>6928066

I think it's interesting that around the same time we are shown that Jessica is essentially the same in either universe - it was making the point that while people can change depending on their circumstances, sometimes they just are the way they are.

IMO the only reason to drive home this point was to make sure people didn't think Beato's gender issues were down to being abused by Kinzo or anything like that.

Yasu probably believed the fall damaged her brain or testicles which is why she was transgendered. It's not uncommon for people to rationalise conditions like that in odd ways - people very often blame things on childhood events(dropped on their head as a child etc.).

After all, we never get any sight of an ACTUAL injury, so a speculative one makes sense o me.

>>6928137
Without love it cannot be seen~

>>6928066
>Natsuhi's child, the one she remembers from pre-cliffing, was a son - Natsuhi, Yasu, and Will all agreed.
You're pulling this shit out of your ass. It is stated in episode five the person on the phone is called "a man from 19 years ago" simply for convenience sake. Natsuhi didn't recognize the gender of the person speaking by voice, she never actually mentions it was a boy. It's said the voice could belong to a woman as well.
Yasu was just an infant back then, and Natsuhi hated her to the point of going mad. She probably never touched her and avoided her like hell, she wouldn't know the baby's gender.

>>6928155
>But Shannon and Kanon duel not for just love, but to be able to make a 'marriage'. This probably includes not just romantic love.
No, they weren't. Kanon and Jessica's relationship was just barely starting out, marriage wasn't anywhere near on the table for them. What they were fighting for was the "right to love" or the right to a whole soul for a chance at love: they say outright that whoever wins will pursue their love with everything they have, even if the relationship doesn't win out in the end.

Not to mention if Yasu was straight-out female and the concern was BABIES Kanon should lose by default. But he's portrayed as having as legitimate a chance as Shannon and Beatrice. The reason Kanon lost was because of time - he says himself that with more time, he and Jessica could definitely have made a love equal to Shannon and George's. If Yasu was just a girl tricking Jessica, the heir to the Ushiromiya family, into thinking she was a boy, I'm sorry, but Kanon would not have had an equal shot by any means.

>>6928159
>It's not uncommon for people to rationalise conditions like that in odd ways
I don't think so. In the scene where she freaks out, there's Nanjo present. Nanjo doesn't constantly live on the island, I would guess he's the one that discloses her actual condition to her.

>>6928171
>She probably never touched her and avoided her like hell, she wouldn't know the baby's gender.

Yeah no, that is just going way too far.

>>6928171
>You're pulling this shit out of your ass. It is stated in episode five the person on the phone is called "a man from 19 years ago" simply for convenience sake. Natsuhi didn't recognize the gender of the person speaking by voice, she never actually mentions it was a boy. It's said the voice could belong to a woman as well.

The only time Natsuhi questioned the gender of the person on the phone was before they identified themselves as her child. Yasu identifies himself specifically as her son and speaks like a man when presenting herself as "Natsuhi's child from nineteen years ago." Natsuhi immediately accepts with this as a given without question.

And I'm sorry, but it's ridiculous to not know the gender of a baby you were with for days, even if you disliked it.

>>6928171
Nope. Will specifically says that "Lion" was a man in EP5. In addition he also uses 兄妹 for the relationship between Lion and Jessica.

>>6928180

But Nanjo is personal doctor to Kinzo, and the one that saved her - so of course she'd want to hear what he has to say about her condition. Not to mention if you have GID or anything like that, you do at some point have to tell a Doctor.

Nanjo could also have been there simply because of Kinzo. It could have been after Nanjo pronounced Kinzo dead. There are a variety of reasons for Nanjo to be on the island.

>>6928174

Why has it to be babies?

Just today in the news there were some girls talking about having her vaginas damaged, external wounds, and how they couldn't have sex. There was a surgery that could be done to fix it, dunno if it existed in the 80's but it could be what Shannon planned to do if won, if not fake penis for Kanon.

It doesn't have to be internal damage if female. Such a fall can damage female genitals too.

>>6928211
You still need to prove that having a damaged uterus leads a woman to creating a male alter ego.

>>6928211
A female with a damaged vagina doesn't present half of themselves as male and truly believe they have a legitimate shot at a fulfilling male/female relationship in that role, if only they had been given more time.

A female would also not choose to overtly and explicitly present themselves as male when talking to someone whose connection to them is from a point before the damage happened. Said person also being one of the few people who would probably know the original state of their gender.

We should stop trying to fit our logic on Yasu so much. Since (s)he isn't even a real person.

I'll chalk the fact most of us don't understand his/her logic worth shit to bad or DEEP writing.

>>6928211

Or brain damage.

If you were dropped on your head as a child, and you ended up with something like Gender Dysphoria, and were having an emo moment, you may well make a connection.

The truth: Kyrie and Rudolf are the true killer.

>>6928264
Yes. We know.

>>6928174
>"Both Shannon and Kanon......call themselves furniture. ......These furniture have always claimed that there cannot be love between furniture and humans. At that point, the magic of the golden butterfly brooch comes into play, and as the miraculous result of that magic, love is established between Shannon and George onii-chan. That's what they claim."
>"'Without the power of magic once more, marriage will be impossible'. ......That seems to be common knowledge between Shannon and Kanon. ......I just can't understand that part."
>>>>>Auau:"Well now. ......Perhaps there is no way to say it except that love and marriage are very different things."

Clearly, they aren't just dueling for their love, but to be able to marry, i.e. to fully love, like a human.

>Not to mention if Yasu was straight-out female and the concern was BABIES Kanon should lose by default.
That's why they need a miracle.

I feel like Yasu would be female, mainly a girl would want to be a witch and not a sorcerer. Also, if they got a kid from the Fukuin House to be a friend for Jessica, at her age, I think they would find a girl child, since that would probably be preferable.

It seems like in the end, all we are supposed to know is that everything is jumbled due to amnesia, and as a result, we can't be certain of anything. Toya might have created Yasu as an attempt to rationalize how everything could have happened. There really could have just been two servants named Shannon and Kanon, and he simply never saw the two of them in the same room together.

>>6928272
>i.e. to fully love, like a human.
This is the key point, not marriage in and of itself. Marriage is shorthand for heightened commitment and intimacy. The duel was to put an end to Yasu leading a triple life, and put together the pieces of her soul. This is explicit. BABIES never comes up from Yasu's perspective, ever.

>That's why they need a miracle.
With the Umineko universe, there is no miracle that could fix a strict physical/BABIES problem. The miracle that Kanon and Shannon were fighting for was a miracle to unite their souls to pursue love.

>>6928274
>I feel like Yasu would be female, mainly a girl would want to be a witch and not a sorcerer.
I don't think there's any question that Yasu spent most of her life believing she was a girl/being raised as a girl. The issue is that in the time before her injury, she's portrayed as a man, and that after a certain point in her life, she begins to split between male/female, with both theoretically being as viable options as the other.

>Also, if they got a kid from the Fukuin House to be a friend for Jessica, at her age, I think they would find a girl child, since that would probably be preferable.
This was Genji's excuse. Finding a friend for Jessica had nothing to do with the real reason he brought Yasu to the island.

>>6928274
>I feel like Yasu would be female, mainly a girl would want to be a witch and not a sorcerer.
Except in Lambda's TIP there's a weird aside about how witch is a gender neutral term and not to assume the speaker is female. We later learn this person is Yasu.

Well my theory is that Ryukishi is full of shit.

>>6928338
That's a fact, not a theory.

I just cannot believe he went with ALL JUST A DREAM ending. That's fucking STUPID.

>>6928355
He didn't.

>>6928359
>I haven't read Episode 8
Bern and Lambda are the only real characters. Everything else is just Battler gibbering to himself years after the fact.

>>6928362
>I haven't read Episode 8
Things are left ambiguous as ever. If anything, Ryukishi was super nice to the people who want the meta-side to be real, in both possible endings.

When the seagulls cry there are no survivors, that was always said.
This was all a trolololo by Ryukishi, everyone died there and no one will know what happened, 18-san is a lie.

Battler wins the game in Episode 6, then uses his Golden Sorcerer magic to save everyone. Bern runs off baaawing over her loss, Yasu drops all the acts and runs off with Jessica to another country where the latter engages in a successful boxing career.

Kyrie falls off the boat and drowns on the way back from Rokkenjima.

Re-reading this, and it feels so weird...

Rosa "DON'T LOOK AROUND, THINK OF THE POLICE" and her suspicious behaviors hearly (she opens and closes the windows) make me think she killed them and looked the door with her mastery keys... but it's looked from the inside.

>>6928380

Derp, forgot the picture

>>6928232
>>6928219

You are forgetting the conditions the alter ego was created under. It was very late, after having a few female characters (Gaap, Claire, Shannon) and after Shannon gave up in Battler, Claire gave her a little brother to supply the presence of a male in her life.

Also Kanon has always been the weakest personality, and his love for Jessica the weakest and long time denied.

>>6928394

>Kyrie

That's not how you say George.

>>6927203
She finds true way.

>>6928424
George didn't DO ANYTHING. Kyrie is a psychotic murderer.

>>6928429
Don't be silly, Kyrie is a good girl. George on the other hand is FAT FAT FAT.

>>6928429

Kyrie is an AWESOME psychotic murder.

George is a fat fat fat ugly neet.

>>6928449
So how the fuck would he even drown, he's his own lifeboat.

>>6928458
He was mistaken as a whale and killed by fishermen

>>6928458

Here is where all that gold plays its role. Tie a few ingots to him and not even all that fat will float for long.

I fucking love this story's consistency. We are supposed to figure it out, despite her herself saying the opposite.

>>6928463
Amazing how much we all hate George.

>>6928515
>voicepatch
Jesus Christ, what i missed?

>>6928515

Well, Maria thinks she's Jesus, so why not

Actually is the "mama is just one mama" part the one not making sense. Maria spent half of the story calling the angry Rosa black witch, including several times earlier in EP2 itself.
One could think she wasn't being delusional at that moment the same Rosa was regretting her attitude, but she goes with the Golden Land stuff again some seconds later.

Oh but please, don't think Ryuukishi-sama is a bad writer, I'm sure you are not a goat sir.

Stories fucking with meta-narrative like these are only good if the writer can keep it coherent, otherwise it just feels like he's making shit up. R07 fucked up in trying to stretch it for 8 episodes.

>>6928670
>Oh but please, don't think Ryuukishi-sama is a bad writer, I'm sure you are not a goat sir.

Well, you can say many things of R07, but he definitely plans his stuffs (good or not) very, very carefully.

So, does someone have a decent explation for the truth other than Fake Murder Mystery?

Because "You killed my family (from Meta-Battler pov they are killed) because i didn't bring you a pony, but it's ok, because you actually didn't it on Rokkenjima prime because you were beaten on the last second" sounds fucking stupid

>>6928670
Sorry, you are a fucking stupid goat. The entire point of the two scenes is the same. Maria will accept that people can be different based on how they act, but deep down knows that her mom is just one person. It's a hint that even though Shkanontrice is accepted as three different people, they're actually just one single person and all their actions really reflect that. But don't let logic get in the way of that, just keep on blaming the author for your own inability to coprehend what you read.

>>6927203
Reported for spoilers, you daft cunt.

>>6928726
Fake murder theory is retarded.
And the truth was explained explicitly enough.

I don't think FMM is an adequate explanation either. It doesn't explain, without descending to cloudcuckooland logic, why the island would blow up.

>>6928788

You are reading between lines too much. There is no a single time Maria acts like at that time again or shows she deep down knows she is being delusional.

back to animesuki and sucking Ryuukishi's cock

>>6928797
He's back...

Rather than reach for straws trying to build a scenario where Umineko makes sense, I think I will settle for the Occam's razor version. Ryukishi may be able to write individual scenes adequately enough, but he is fucking shit tier at inventing plots.

Without despise it cannot be seen.

>>6928803
It was explained in episode 7.

Sometime I wonder if you guys even read the games.
The truth has been said very explicitly, there is no need for theories anymore.

>>6928807
You are a fucking retard, even worse than Maria, We also see it again in EP3. She intially accepts Eva as Beatrice based on her actions, but shows that she knows that the real Beatrice is the Beatrice that's her friend RIGHT BEFORE SHE DIES.

>>6928823

You are the retard. I'm saying she does accept different personas in a same body, but that she doesn't considere "Rosa black witch" and "Rosa mama" the same a single time but in that scene.

Read before writting faggot.
Thinking as Eva as Beato goes with the a different personality is a different person.

>Fake Murder Mystery:
Pros:

- Works very well with the characters: Yasu is lovable, but loves to play prank. And why would Genji, Kumawasa and Nanjo agree to MASS MURDER an intere family? Moneys is not an explanation, they know where the gold is.
- Explain some weird murders, like how did Yasu kiss six adults in the chapel, or Kumasawa and Gohda murder in ep IV
- Explain why would Battler forgive Beatrice: She's a victim, forced to repeat her game and forced to see it getting hijacked everytime
- Explain ep V and VI

Cons: ???

>>6928849

>how did Yasu kiss six adults in the chapel.

I think I missed something...

>>6928919

I meant kill

>>6928930
kiss would have made the game better
Yasu is a pro player
she be tapping all that Ushiromiya ass like it ain't no thang

>>6928965

Man, and Jack Bawa himself was there, this Yasu is quite something.

>>6928849
>- Works very well with the characters: Yasu is lovable, but loves to play prank. And why would Genji, Kumawasa and Nanjo agree to MASS MURDER an intere family? Moneys is not an explanation, they know where the gold is.
Yasu is also desperate and kind of crazy, as stated and shown in episode 7.

>- Explain some weird murders, like how did Yasu kiss six adults in the chapel, or Kumasawa and Gohda murder in ep IV
The parents died without a doubt in the chapel, WITHOUT A DOUBT, there is nothing to explain about it.

>Explain why would Battler forgive Beatrice: She's a victim, forced to repeat her game and forced to see it getting hijacked everytime
Can be explained in a thousand ways.

>- Explain ep V and VI
Why episode 5 and 6 are that way is explicitely stated in episode 1 and 2.
Beatrice wants Battler to find the truth so she create lots of murder scenarios to solve.
Murders = clues for the detective.
Lambda and Battler don't want people to find the truth so they create some really unreliable and hard to solve murders.
No murders = no clues.
It was stated clearly in the tea party of episode 1 and 2.

>Cons:
It's retarded, go against everything we saw in episode 6 and 7. The simple fact that Yasu tries to do something similar to Kinzo with the roulette prove that she really decided to wager the life of the people on the island.
And the roulette only working in such way has been shown since the first episode.

Fake murders supporters = no reading comprehension whatsoever

>>6928991
>Yasu is also desperate and kind of crazy, as stated and shown in episode 7.

To bad he isn't, it's show pretty well IN ALL THE OTHER EPISODES.

And if she was, the others are sane

>The parents died without a doubt in the chapel, WITHOUT A DOUBT, there is nothing to explain about it.

They never said WHEN they did. For how much we know, Rosa simply killed them later when they were faking.

And you still have got to explain how she killed SIX ADULTS WITH A WOUND ON THEIR STOMACH.

>Why episode 5 and 6 are that way is explicitely stated in episode 1 and 2.

Ep. VI was a CONFESSION. With zero level of difficulty. And the GM still have to abide to the game board rules.There are also hint of fake murders in other episode, ep 1, and ep IV especially.

>It's retarded, go against everything we saw in episode 6 and 7

Yeah, like Yasu being treated as she's Jesus and Battler APOLOGIZING TO HER, and switching side after like 5 seconds.


>The simple fact that Yasu tries to do something similar to Kinzo with the roulette prove that she really decided to wager the life of the people on the island

Pic related

>Fake murders supporters = no reading comprehension whatsoever

Murders supports= kids that can't read between the lines and take everything from granted. I bet you thought ep VII Tea Party was believable.

>>6929020
>And you still have got to explain how she killed SIX ADULTS WITH A WOUND ON THEIR STOMACH.

Illusions to illusions. The gold truth locks the lock of illusions.

>>6929020
>To bad he isn't, it's show pretty well IN ALL THE OTHER EPISODES.
You've got to be fucking kidding me.
ShKanontrice/Yasu not being sane is pretty obvious since the beginning.

>They never said WHEN they did. For how much we know, Rosa simply killed them later when they were faking.
You can't fake an open stomach with your innards spilling out.
Also lots of murders that could have only be done by Yasu were confirmed both in red and by Will.

>Ep. VI was a CONFESSION. With zero level of difficulty.
Episode was a confession about the actual mystery of Umineko: BEATRICE'S HEART.
What happened/how it happened during the 2 days was never the mystery of Umineko, episode 7 and 8 made it very very clear.
And yes it was shown clearly, cue the countless ShKanontrice scene

And the GM doesn't have to show any murders, the actual rule only say he must follow Beatrice's heart, be "solvable" and end with the bomb exploding to close the box.
There is no rules that say that murders have to happen.

Also fucking grow a brain already, it's funny how the biggest fans of Umineko are the ones that misunderstand the most about it.

"Hey guys, I know you only know me as the servant, but I'm actually the successor of the family and I want you all to pretend dead so I can surprise Battler, okay? Oh, and there's a pile of gold with several guns sitting in front of it on the island somewhere, if you find it then you can keep it, but help me win Battler first :)"

Just joking, that's a scenario that ran in my head and I know that's not the right way to look at it. Just thought I'd share.

>>6928849
>Battler forgive Beatrice
He forgave Lamdba.
He forgave Bern and even wanted to be friends with her.
For fucks sakes he was even the one that asked to bring Erika back in ep 8 and he has some really deep hatred for her.
Seriously, he forgives people at the drop of a hat.

>>6929046
You just keep proving you didn't understand anything you read.

>Also lots of murders that could have only be done by Yasu were confirmed both in red and by Will.
1-4 has Yasu as the culprit, like she designed it. Of course she killed there.

>Episode was a confession about the actual mystery of Umineko: BEATRICE'S HEART.
You got that right. Beatrice's heart is that she was used as a scapegoat for the Rokkenjima incident. Yasu's heart on the other hand, is the whole Shkanon antics.

The fake murder party is the only way to fit everything nicely, including the whole "Without love it cannot be seen" theme of the series.

>>6929054
He didn't cry and beg for forgiveness. One of the central themes of his characterization is that he doesn't forgive easily. Of course he can forgive Bern, Lambda, or Erika, after all they're all fictional *cackle*cackle*

>>6929076
"Without love it cannot be seen" is about the inner self, how people can only see the appearance and not the true self of people. That's one of the theme of the game.
It's not about scapegoating.

And episode 1 and 2, that were written by Yasu, weren't originally written for scapegoating purpose, they were written BEFORE the conference to create the box.

And by your theory episode 1-4 are completely unreliable since Yasu kill in them which once again prove you understand shit.
Episode 1-4 are as reliable as episode 5, 6 or 7.
There is no fake tales or true tales, they are all equal in the box.

>>6929088
Battler is one of the people who pushed Yasu over the edge, anyone in his situation would cry for the forgiveness of that person.
It's not like Yasu wanted to have revenge or something, she just wanted to find love.
Like they say the way to hell is paved with good intentions.

>>6929113
>anyone in his situation would cry for the forgiveness of that person.
So you would apologize for bumping into a person AFTER you found out they killed your entire family?
The entire point of his game was to apologize to her. There is a difference between GIVING forgiveness and BEGGING forgiveness. Guess which one Battler does easily and guess which one he doesn't? Hell, he didn't beg Ange's forgiveness when he found out how she had suffered in EP4 because he'd been playing around with witches for eternity.

>>6929101
>"Without love it cannot be seen" is about the inner self, how people can only see the appearance and not the true self of people.
It's presented as a way to look at Eva, how maybe she wasn't as bad as Ange though; and how Ange should try to look at things with love for that was the only way to see things on a different perspective and find the truth.

>And episode 1 and 2, that were written by Yasu, weren't originally written for scapegoating purpose, they were written BEFORE the conference to create the box.
Yasu was making them as a way to plan the murder mystery, how to create closed rooms, etc.. She just gave wings to her imigination- she "played" with the lives of the Ushiromiyas. When things went wrong she used them to cover the truth.

>And by your theory episode 1-4 are completely unreliable since Yasu kill in them which once again prove you understand shit.
Not sure what you mean by that. 1-4 IS the mystery. The solution IS Yasu as the culprit and killer. But the mystery is fiction and we can discover the "one truth", the truth behind the fiction.

>>6929134
She didn't kill anyone, nobody said she did.
She planned a roulette to find a miraculous ending after seeing it worked for Kinzo.
The goal wasn't to kill people, it was to find happiness.
Just happen that the roulette involve waging the lives of 16 people.

Battler is probably someone who valued intention above all, you could say Yasu's intentions was honorable even if she went in a really wrong way about them.

Stop being retarded already.

>>6929113
>It's not like Yasu wanted to have revenge or something, she just wanted to find love.

In a mass murder?

"Hey, George, i just mass murder your family and a bomb is about to go out, will you escape with me? I love you"

>>6929053

More
>Present herself
>With Nanjo, Kumasawa and Genji help explain the situation (there it's a will, as Genji said)
>Promises the headship if one of the cousins that solved the epitath
>Eva and Rudolf: Holy, shit opportunity!
>Everyone else: Holy shit, moneys!

>>6929144
>It's presented as a way to look at Eva, how maybe she wasn't as bad as Ange though; and how Ange should try to look at things with love for that was the only way to see things on a different perspective and find the truth.
That's what I wrote.
Don't just look at appearance, that's the whole theme.

>Yasu was making them as a way to plan the murder mystery, how to create closed rooms, etc.. She just gave wings to her imigination- she "played" with the lives of the Ushiromiyas. When things went wrong she used them to cover the truth.
The episodes were probably originally written to plan things out.
And then she had the idea to throw them in the sea to create some mystery.
It's not like she could have written them during or after the incident.

>Not sure what you mean by that. 1-4 IS the mystery. The solution IS Yasu as the culprit and killer. But the mystery is fiction and we can discover the "one truth", the truth behind the fiction.

All the episodes are equal, there is absolutely nothing that say that these episodes are special.
And they aren't really about finding the "truth behind the fiction", they are about finding Beatrice's heart, which was clearly shown in episode 6 and 7.

What really happened on the island isn't in question.

>>6929160
>In a mass murder?

A question, are you acting retarded on purpose?
How many times do I have to repeat myself?
Did you even read episode 7? Or rather did you even understand it?

>>6929145
>She didn't kill anyone, nobody said she did.
You're the one saying she planned it. Just as bad.

>She planned a roulette to find a miraculous ending after seeing it worked for Kinzo.
The goal wasn't to kill people, it was to find happiness.
Thing is, Kinzo didn't go around killing people. He just put himself in the line. The crazy "Kinzo roulette" we know from the early episodes is just fiction.

>Just happen that the roulette involve waging the lives of 16 people.
Or, you know, none. If she wanted happiness, she knew she wasn't going to get it once she went around killing the family.

>Battler is probably someone who valued intention above all, you could say Yasu's intentions was honorable even if she went in a really wrong way about them.
Planned serial murder is NEVER honorable. Especially if you're Battler.

Everyone keeps cmplaining how the fake murders are retarded, but if you think about it it's the most realistic theoty.

>>6929145

A roulette. Which involved a mass murder. She was going to kill them. Kill. 16. People.
Everyone who thinks it's not insane it's fucking insane.
>>6929076
>1-4 has Yasu as the culprit, like she designed it. Of course she killed there.

Not sure about 1-2, but 3-4 definitely contain a fake murder mystery plan, everyone telling Battler the SAME LIE and a lot of weird bodies (Kumasawa and Gohda, why the fuck would they fake-hung themselves AND then shoot themselves!!?"

>>6929181
If you think about it it's the most stupid theory ever you mean.

What is supporting me compared to you is the fucking GAME itself.
The roulette and what it meant for Yasu, EXPLICITLY stated.

The fact that she planned something horrible but pitiable, EXPLICITLY stated.

You have absolutely no reading comprehension, it's like arguing with a wall.

Yasu is a pitiful fellow who wanted to find love above all but felt very cornered.
She remembered the roulette of Kinzo and probably misunderstood a bit about it, and she decided to try something similar.
Since she couldn't find a solution to her problem she decided to create a situation where fate would be forced to find the solution for her.
And by putting everything on the line she thought she would have a better chance finding her happy end.
Once again it's DIRECTLY stated.

That Battler could cry for this person is understandable.

Also something you seem to have forgotten is that the roulette isn't only about Battler unlike what your fake murder shit implies

>>6929166
>Don't just look at appearance, that's the whole theme.
Looking at just appearance is exactly what people are doing by pinning mass murder on Yasu.

>All the episodes are equal, there is absolutely nothing that say that these episodes are special.
Except the fact that they're the "breakdown" and that Beato (Yasu) is no longer the GM.

>And they aren't really about finding the "truth behind the fiction", they are about finding Beatrice's heart, which was clearly shown in episode 6 and 7.
Beatrice's heart is directly related to the truth behind the fiction.

We could go on with this for hours. It all boils down to how you want to see Yasu.

>>6929209
>Also something you seem to have forgotten is that the roulette isn't only about Battler unlike what your fake murder shit implies

>>6929184
>Not sure about 1-2, but 3-4 definitely contain a fake murder mystery plan
Episode 3-4 have real murders, but hijacked by some side people.
Of course since episode 1 and 2 were written by Yasu she didn't think anyone could get in her way.
But there is no fake murder plan, people definitely killed and some definitely by Yasu.
What happened in episode 3 is easily solvable and basically doesn't contain any fake murder except for Shannon/Kanon faking their deaths for the circular closed rooms.
Episode 4 is a clusterfuck but is understandable if you think that Kyrie hijacked the thing for some time.


And I never said that Yasu was sane, only that Battler could understandably find her pitiable.

>>6929213
You should stop posting pics you basically don't understand.
Of course Battler has a big connection with Yasu, doesn't mean it's only about him.
Did you even read episode 6?

>>6929227
>Battler loves mystery
>Battler tell Yasu that if he was the detective, he would look into the motive for sure

>>6929210
How the fuck can you think you understand Yasu when you basically reject half of what was shown about her?
The roulette of episode 6, the confession of Clair in episode 7, what she did in episode 4.

You are the one who keep focusing on appearance.

>>6929209
>What is supporting me compared to you is the fucking GAME itself.
>The roulette and what it meant for Yasu, EXPLICITLY stated.

You think the GAME doesn't support the fake murders? Or that the "roulette" is even properly explained?
..And I'm the one with no reading comprehension?

>The fact that she planned something horrible but pitiable, EXPLICITLY stated.
Yea, she had to make up a "game" to decide who she would love. Quite pitiable.

>Also something you seem to have forgotten is that the roulette isn't only about Battler unlike what your fake murder shit implies
Not at all. It involved passing the headship and choosing Jessica(kanon), George(Shannon), or Battler(Beatrice). If Battler remenbers the promise and is willing to take her back, she will love him. If not, she will love George. Jessica never had much of a chance, that's why Kanon didn't either. He was the zero, nothing happened, it only left open the chance to develop a relationship with her.

>>6929232
And?
Once again he has a big connection with her but the roulette isn't only about him.
She definitely tailored the game a bit to "Beatrice" advantage but that doesn't mean that the Shannon and Kanon sides aren't there.
As was shown in every past episodes.

>>6929221

I don't know, but Battler investigation in ep IV brings out a lot of weird shit

>>6929243
>She definitely tailored the game a bit to "Beatrice" advantage but that doesn't mean that the Shannon and Kanon sides aren't there.

That's why George and Jessica can solve the epitaph too, duh

>>6929239
Yes I think there is absolutely NOTHING that support fake murder in the game.
Nothing was ever hinted about it.
Your clues are either really obscure or can be see in a dozen of way.
And you are rejecting like most of episode 6 and 7 just because

>>6929244
When someone with a gun tell you to say something you say it.

It was a clue that there were 2 culprits in that game

How did Beatrice plan to return the people she killed?

>>6929251
>Kill his family
>Bitch about a promise

I'm sorry, but it's a little unbelievable

How do you explain Gohda and Kumasawa murder?

>>6929259
You are arguing about Beatrice killing people in this episode?
And you are going to argue about her killing people in episode 1-3 too?
Are we back to 2 years ago or something.

Even in episode 4 several murders could only be done by Yasu

>>6929234
Nothing on Ep6 conflicts with the fake murders, including the roulette. It's the opposite actually. Notice how the "kills" for the love duel turn out to not be dead at all. Claire is the personification of the mystery in 1-4, where she is guilty. And what's wrong with Ep4?

>>6929271
Shannon and Kanon
"Everybody will die soon anyways"
"Oh right."

>>6929269
>Even in episode 4 several murders could only be done by Yasu

Yeah, like Kyrie murder.
The murder of the culprit.
Again, how do you explain Gohda and Kumasawa being hoisted up WITH THEIR Feet ON THE GROUND.

Even Battler pointed how weird was that shit

>>6929271
It's not about conflicting, it's about giving clues.
Why there were fake murders in episode 6 was already said in this episode itself, it was a trap for Erika.
Because Battler didn't want her to find the truth, he thought making fake murders would hide Beatrice's heart.

>>6929274

That's because the bomb is a prerequisite for the cabox, that's why Will said "regardless of the witch will"

>>6929283
I'm not here to solve every murders of episode 4 that was a huge clusterfuck.
But are you saying Yasu never kill or something?
Then explain the murders of episode 1-3.

>>6929249
>Yes I think there is absolutely NOTHING that support fake murder in the game.
Well, it's not even worth arguing with you then. You must have only half read the novels.

>And you are rejecting like most of episode 6 and 7 just because
You keep saying that but Eps6-7 are the ones that support the fake murders the most.

>>6929285
>Because Battler didn't want her to find the truth, he thought making fake murders would hide Beatrice's heart.
>Hide Beatrice's Heart
>Entire episode is about Skanon

>>6929287
And you think activating a bomb goes along with a fake murder game? Are you completely stupid?

The box can only exist if nobody is there to tell the tale in the end.

>>6929288

Illusions to Illusions
Earth to Earth are the real murders, Eva in ep III.

>>6929295
Hide Beatrice's heart TO ERIKA.

Erika doesn't care about the ShKanon scenes that told the entire story, she only cares about hard cold evidences.
Battler efficiently told the heart without giving any evidences.

It's the whole irony, if Erika wasn't so stuck up she could have solved the game easily.
And this is why Will did.

>>6929296
>The box can only exist if nobody is there to tell the tale in the end.

lol no

There is a thing called police in the real world. It would disprove magic and shit like that in 5 seconds. Let alone Erika.

The catbox can exist because THERE IS NOTHING TO FIND

>>6929285
>It's not about conflicting, it's about giving clues.
You're the one ignoring clues. The fake murders are right there, and it's a goddamn "confession" with "no difficulty". And Battler is making the "last" game to prove he understood everything, he must lay all cards. He used Shkanon whole still showing he knew Yasu was innocent.

>>6929300
Illusion to illusion mean trick or lie, not fake murder.

Like when Will talk about the chain of episode 1 or the lock of the chapel in episode 2.
If you didn't understand this while reading the episode sorry but you have some real problems

>>6929283

Forgot pic

If this isn't a fake murder, i don't know what it is

>>6929310
I already told you why it was a confession, can't you read?

Stop ignoring what happened in the game itself, what was the intent of both Battler and Erika.
That's what I mean about you ignoring everything that doesn't suit you.

>>6929305
And there is nothing to find because there is no evidences.
Police can't do shit

>>6929296
Since it happened in reality it's a prerequisite for all fictions inside the box. So all fictions must end the same way "regardless of the witch will".

In reality Yasu didn't have to activate the bomb. We were shown the adults were very capable of that by being overly suspicious or wanting to hide evidence.

>>6929313

They never stated in red that people in ep 1 fist were dead, you know it?

>>6929331
Yeah but if Yasu planned to close the box from the beginning you could think it was part of her plan to activate the bomb.

Which show her pathetic side, she probably didn't think the roulette would give her the happy end right from the beginning.

>>6929327
>And there is nothing to find because there is no evidences.

BECAUSE OF THE BOMB

>>6929338
Battler saw them.

And the people in the shed, except for Shannon, were stated to be dead in red afterward.

>>6929324
>I already told you why it was a confession, can't you read?
Yea, surely you are the sole bearer of Truth. You only gave me your opinion and point of view, which I disagree with.

>Stop ignoring what happened in the game itself..That's what I mean about you ignoring everything that doesn't suit you.
Right back at 'ya.

>ITT: People that can't read

>>6929347
>Battler saw them.

Make up

>And the people in the shed, except for Shannon, were stated to be dead in red afterward.

No, they weren't.
Also, how the fuck did Yasu kill six people and how did she bring them there without getting wet? She's very frail and lift shit.

Please, don't me Genji and Kumasawa would go along with a mass murder

>>6929347
>Battler saw them.

Make up

>And the people in the shed, except for Shannon, were stated to be dead in red afterward.

No, they weren't.
Also, how the fuck did Yasu kill six people and how did she bring them there without getting wet? She's very frail and can't lift shit.

Please, don't tell me Genji and Kumasawa would go along with a mass murder

>>6929344
Sure can write stories that are the equivalent of LOTR or more in a day.

Yasu wrote them beforehand.
Whether she threw them in the sea before or during the event isn't clear though

>>6929339
Yasu didn't want to create the close box beforehand. She wished for a happy ending, not to be "caged". After all went wrong she used the tales she had written as planning for a mystery to "cage" herself and hide the truth. That's why she is a martyr.

>>6929368
>No, they weren't.
Yes they were.
Clearly "unidentified people are really dead" in red.
And only Shannon identified there.

And Genji would help her, Kumasawa and Nanjo's were old and their families received lots of money so it's very possible that she got their help simply by bribing them beforehand.
Nanjo who has a sick grand-daughter would help for sure.

When it was stated the roulette involved killing people?

>>6929382
Bet EVERYTHING.

And people do die in every episodes.
The basis of Umineko is that people would have died in every cases

>>6929382
People just can't get through their heads the "roulette" is just a play with odds to try and reach an outcome where there would be a stalemate.

Funny how the fake murder theory has absolutely no presence in Japan.
Next to nothing in Umineco.

>>6929379

Again, no. She only said there unidentified body were really them, no double body trick

>Regarding the unidentified corpses, all of their identities are guaranteed. Therefore, no body double tricks exist!

Remember what they said about bodies in ep V

>And Genji would help her,

Genji is not a fucking robot, loyal? Yes. But he's not a robot. He understood that what Kinzo did was wrong, to give an example.

>Kumasawa and Nanjo's were old and their families

IT'S A MASS MURDER.

And they know were the gold it, for fuck sake, why would they need to do MASS MURDER for that?

Let alone that Yasu send money to the parents home too,

>>6929406
>Remember what they said about bodies in ep V
You mean about corpses not being corpses because they are actually alive.
You think you can fake having your face SMASHED.

And Will confirmed every other murders.

And the characterization of Genji, Kumasawa and Nanjo show that they could help her.
For the last 2 people can do a lot of crazy thing for money and their families.
And Genji is utterly loyal, nothing shown in the game could prove that he wouldn't listen to such an order from his master.

Damn I'm tired of this argument.
Know what? Believe whatever shit you want, I'm sure you and your animesuki friends love it to death.

>>6929420
>You think you can fake having your face SMASHED.

Make up, Yasu is fucking rich and can afford Hollywood quality.
Battler never got a close look to the bodies anyway

>And the characterization of Genji, Kumasawa and Nanjo show that they could help her.

No, they are not. Kumasawa is an old, funny lady that likes the Ushiromiya, KNOWS WHERE THE FUCKING GOLD IS, and it's pretty much normalfag matterial. Again, MASS MURDER

Nanjo liked money but it's not insane, why would he murder his best friends children for a crazy trap roulette?

And once again, Genji is not a robot

>>6929405
Funny how when it was introduced, a bunch of Japanese people were all "Oh, it all makes sense now."

>>6929430
I can't get tired of how you people call animesuki into the argument everytime you can't come up with a proper counter argument anymore. It's funny, really, beacause I really doubt anyone from there would be any interested at all in coming to /jp/.

At least have the dignity of a proper "fight" instead of pulling ridiculous ad hominens out of your ass.

If Yasu never killed anyone then why does the island get blown up?

Umineshit is Crappu Cum in Me

>>6929468
Because the adults are douchebags.

>>6929481
Wow, it's like I'm really on /co/!

Who killed Nanjo in EP 3?

>>6929544
Yasu. Will confirmed Shannon and Kanon's death as "illusion"

>>6929544
>>6929558

Explain this, FMM guy.

>>6929564
Explain what? That a fictional murderer killed a person in a fictional story? Do you know how murder mystery theater works, or do you honestly think they kill the actors?

>>6929714
Everything is a fiction within a fiction, welcome to Umineko.

>>6929722
More like "Welcome to Rokkenjima."