/jp/ - Otaku Culture

It doesn't even matter.

>>6804840
>>6804845
No one went along, because he never existed.
No one ever greeted him or even had a thought about him. Because no such actions did exist as well.

>>6804880

Then, whit who did Jessica fell in love?

>>6804898

That didn't happen.

>>6804898

Who said Jessica ever fell in love?

All we know about Jessica is that she was murdered on Rokkenjima in 1986.

Everything, everything else is a lie.

>>6804840
Genji is the head servant, he made everything appear as normal.

>>6804904
this.

Ep07 is R07 trolling because he felt fans didn't think hard enough. He gathered a couple of fan theories and put them together. Well, some things must be true though, like Tea Party.

>>6804975

How did Yasu know Genji was going to suck his cock?

>>6805070
>some things must be true though
>Bern says in episode 8 everything was a complete lie

>Ryukishi as a kid
"Look mom, I made a riddle! Wanna hear it?"
"Sure sweetie"
>He tells her the riddle
"Ooh, that's a tough one, I don't think I can figure it out. Wanna tell me the answer?"
"NO, You just didn't think hard enough, just try mooom!"
"Okay(thinks a little bit), No I really don't know"
"YOU'RE A STUPID GOAT AND I HATE YOU, I DON'T WANNA TELL YOU ANYMORE!"

>>6805070
Except there's to much foreshadowing for it to be that.

>>6805119
There is too much foreshadowing for every theory ever in Umineko.

Genji, Kumasawa, and Nanjo all knew who Yasu was, and they probably knew she was delusional and had made up friends (Most likely Kumawsawa knew the most) So they were able to go along, and most likely get a lot of other people to go along with the "kanon" story. It wouldn't be that hard to fake an existence, hell Natsuhi was able to do it for a year, and the only reason they saw through her ruse was because they were desperate for Italian Gold, Kanon doesn't fit anywhere into the adults needs, so no one cared enough to search into his "existence"

Yasu doesn't crossdress as her alter personalities. She doesn't even wear Beatrice dress for Maria, because Maria believes her acting. Kanon never existed, Jessica didn't fall in love with anyone, it's just Yasu giving her a boyfriend she wished for as a part of all the embellishments she added to the story.
Alternatively, Kanon is a real person who wasn't on the island back then. Yasu inserted him to make the mystery work somehow, but he still can't exist without Shannon because the mystery should be solvable.

>>6805123
No there isn't.

>>6805160
>Jessica didn't fall in love with anyone,

This directly goes against the author saying that making fake romances is a dirty trick he would never use.

>>6805165

To be honest, the ending of EP8 feels like enough of a dirty trick to stop me from giving a shit about that.

It's obvious. "Kanon" never really existed, except as maybe a secret between certain people. Just like "Ronove" and "Virgilia". Jessica just might have been one of those people. Or maybe she was just a raging lesbian and "Kanon" is just the cover for Jessica's lesbian relationship with Yasu. Or maybe it's a straight relationship after all?

On top of this, Yasu inserted Kanon as a character into her message bottle mysteries. In said mysteries he was the same person as Shannon, as they are both Yasu.

>>6805164
Good luck denying every theory created by fans ever.

>>6805100
She never says that.

>>6805070

More like everything in episode 7 is true EXCEPT the tea party. Right from the Bern's mouth. You can relax knowing that Kinzo didn't really plot to steal the Italian gold, Kyrie might not be a cold calculating killer waiting to snap, and might be a loving parent after all. But probably not because Eva was keeping Rokkenjima's happenings a secret to protect Ange.

>>6805189
except she does
http://archive.easymodo.net/cgi-board.pl/jp/thread/6752742#p6753803

>>6805186
Battler meets Kanon several times. You would have to say he is nuts for Kanon not to exist (or at least, someone dressed as a boy).
While this may be the point in ep8, that means everything may be a fake making umineko complete fantasy and arguing about it a complete waste of time.

>>6805213
It has lies, fiction in it. It's not a lie.

>>6805214
Are you still in the "Battler saw it, it must have happened!" camp?

Battler is indeed a reliable character. in Yasu's mysteries. Just like the detective in detective fiction. But it's still fiction.
>that means everything may be a fake making umineko complete fantasy and arguing about it a complete waste of time.
Yep.

>>6805202
Wait, didn't Bern say that the Tea Party was pretty much the truth? She's malevolent and spiteful, yes, but that game wasn't under her direct control.

>>6805223
All of Umineko is fiction. You still have to trust something in the context of that fiction.

In the rules set by Umineko, anything seen by Battler = True. With Ep5 being the sole exception.

>>6805241
So you are in the camp, huh? How do you explain that Battler has seen "true" events that are mutually exclusive by reliving the same two day period? Kakeras?

Again, what Battler sees in 1-4 is true. For those episodes. Each of those episodes is a fiction within a fiction, loosely based on truth.

>>6805235
In episode 7 she did, but she was lying. I'm sure everyone noticed the "This is all truth-" and being cut off by Ange. She explains in 8 she was saying it wasn't truth, but Ange drowned her out. It was under her control. She just set Ange's family as culprits to get to her, she does the same thing in episode 8 in a game that's explicitly hers.

>>6805244
>How do you explain that Battler has seen "true" events that are mutually exclusive by reliving the same two day period?
Such as?

>>6805244
They're all branch off the same events.

We can assume that, since Battler seeing Kanon is constant, then Kanon must have really existed.

>anything seen by Battler = True.

Again you people are looking at this from a flawed perspective.
We've never seen anything Battler's ever seen.
IT
WAS
ALL
A
DREAM

>>6805261
Do I really need to explain? Do you think every episode is actually the same set of murders told with slightly different words?

>>6805264
We can't assume that because they're all fictional branches. Two of said branches were even written before the events even took place, how could they possibly be true?

>>6805264
Battler actually only really "meets" Kanon in EP1, if i recall correctly. By meet i mean they have a conversation and talk face to face. In Episode 2 Kanon and Battler don't interact, if i recall correctly. In 3 he dies early on before being able to. Can't remember anything about 4.

>>6805279
Battler spends all of 4 alone with his banana phone.

>>6805264
>We can assume that, since Battler seeing Kanon is constant, then Kanon must have really existed.
There is nothing that says that was how Battler actually acted upon meeting "Kanon", if such a meeting even ever occured.

The first two games were written by Yasu, it's fiction.
Yasu != Battler, Battler's point of view was never the "truth", it was only as reliable as Yasu wanted it to be.
This is the nature of Umineko.
Something happened, and we are presented with a whole bunch of bullshit made up by others.

>>6805278
>Do I really need to explain? Do you think every episode is actually the same set of murders told with slightly different words?
Well, I see it as how things would have happened depending on the outcome of Yasu's plans. Even if they are fictional, they still have to obey logic as a "reality that could have happened", since we can't know which kakera is the truth.

>>6805279
By meeting, I don't think people mean to have a direct conversation with. Only being in the same place with him is acceptable, like in ep2, in the chapel when the victims are found.

So in the end, is Battler an accomplice or is it just on the gameboard made by Bern?

>>6805288
>There is nothing that says that was how Battler actually acted upon meeting "Kanon", if such a meeting even ever occured.
Sorry but if we accept an argument like this, then we have no solid ground for any theory at all. The options are like this:
1 - accepting a person as a faithful observer and use it as the ground for theories;
2 - disregard everything and propose theories without any ground at all.

>>6805299
Gameboard
In b4 WHO CARES NEVER HAPPENED HURHURHSDURHDUR

>>6805298
>Even if they are fictional, they still have to obey logic as a "reality that could have happened", since we can't know which kakera is the truth.
Not really. In episode 1 and 2, Yasu could have written whatever she wanted. In the real world, the wild speculation over Rokkenjima really picked up when Yasu's bottles were discovered. In 8, she admits to writing a third one, land of the golden witch. Which was the originally planned third episode, but it was scrapped. On top of that, we've got parts from previous episodes talking about the message bottles starting right from episode 1, saying the tale that was just shown was just one of those messages.

So I don't know why people are thinking that they must be truths.

>>6805311
Umineko is already over, what do you want theories for?

If you want the real truth of Umineko, then the golden truth is the only thing that is without doubt reliable.

The red truths are the truths of the games, therefore fiction.
But the golden truths are the truths of realit.

Immagine a bunch of guys playing a session of D&D or whatever.
One player could for instance declare in red
"I am Fred of the north, the Fighter of courage"
And it would be 100% true, within the game.
But it wouldn't stop the GM from declaring in gold for instance that the Fighter Fred does indeed not exist, and that it is only our friendly neckbeard eating the last piece of cake, playing a tabletop roleplaying game at his friend's apartment, taking the role of Fred when playing.

>>6805342
Also
>But the golden truths are the truths of realit.
Posted properly spelled
>Part of your comment isn't allowed to be posted :(
What?

>It was all a dream

How so?
Meta-world exist.
Play the damn episode

>>6805342
So how do you explain golden truth about using magic?

>>6805342
Only that's wrong. Gold is the accepted truth, it is sometimes stronger, sometimes weaker than red. "Beatrice made candy appear with magic", Maria believes it so- like George said in Ep7, it's the adults responsability to go along with it because it would be only cruel to say otherwise. And that is also the foundation of true magic, explained by Virgilia; make people happy. If it serves the sole purpose of making someone happy, there is no reason to deny it thus making the magic "real". It would be the same with bribes, a lie backed by tons of gold will be stronger than the actual truth and become a proper one, when everyone sides with it for the gold.

>>6805393
Gold Truth can only be used by those who know the absolute truth, Beatrice the elder knew that Beatrice the younger's magic trick was simply a sleight of hand, therefore she is able to refer to it as "magic" with the gold truth and get away with it.

I've only read up until episode 7 but let's just make sure I got my facts straight:

Shannon is Yasu, Kanon, Beatrice, Gaap, Ronove and Virgilia. She is the culprit in all games except the third where instead it was Rudolf and Kyrie. Does Eva survive all games or only the third?

Or does episode 8 basically say that we still don't know who caused the actual murders and everything was made up stories?

Now you
>>6805342
>>6805395
>>6805422
have made me confused.

What is correct? Or is this another standstill where we won't be able to know because Ryukishi doesn't know how to properly explain his own story? Instead insulting them to hide his own inability to explain?
I know Umineko isn't a mystery novel, but all mystery novels properly explains their mysteries.

>>6805459
See >>6805101

>>6805433

Yasu is the culprit in all the games. The only reason Eva lived in the 3rd game is because she got lucky from deciding to snoop around the other mansion when midnight hit.

>>6805459
>>6805395 is correct. It's not outright said but it's consistent and been explained pretty well if you pay attention. "The true nature of the Endless Magic is making people happy", "A Truth recognized by everyone becomes a proper Truth", "The influence of 10 tons of Gold on humans".. and so on.

>>6805433

Yasu is the culprit for 1-2
She created third game first twilight, whatever ep 3 and 4 are the adults going rampage is up to the debate

>>6805342
>>6805422
>>6805433
>>6805466
Guys, guys...

Seriously, you got it all wrong.
Reread EP7's Tea Party, even the 6th and 7th episode if needed.

Yasu is NOT the culprit.
And the gold truth is the accepted truth, not the "absolute truth" or whatever you want to call it.

I can assure you this much. If you don't get it and wish so, I can give you a small explanation about it.

we have been seeing the same world over and over again, with the power of Kakeras, which is magic. how can you guys say magic is not real then? Is Kakeras really a alien tech and all the witches anre really aliens fucking around with human as test subjects?

>>6805486
Feel free to explain because if Yasu is not the culprit that would mean there is no culprit at all?

>>6805486

Yasu is the culprit of Ep1-7 derp
Witch are stories/fiction/happeninsidethecatbox/whatever

Whatever happens on Rokkenjima prime is a mystery

>>6805497
You sir, have no love. That's why you think that.

>>6805518

No, i'm just objective.

Having no love would meant to not understand or twist Yasu motives, like 34 did in ep V.

>>6805529
Except you are wrong.

No offense, but that's why most of the Umineko fanbase don't get Umineko at all.

>>6805561
So you're saying there is no culprit then? Just a blown up island with a dead family?

>>6805561
I'm eagerly waiting for your opinion on Umineko.

>>6805561
Will himself said it pretty clearly that it was her.
Or do you doubt even this?

>>6805561
Don't you realize that you can't "get" umineko?
You have a fuckload of hints pointing to everything and the opposite of that, and every faggot thinks he "got" umineko based on a few of those hints leaving out or rejecting all the others who debunk his theories.
And this is precisely what R07 aimed at, let his readers argue about it forever so Umineko doesn't get forgotten like the directionless clusterfuck that it actually is.
And he'll succeed because there are always some fuckers who think they "got" it while the rest of the internet didn't.

>>6805561

"Here's the culprit"
>Clair confession
>Clair himself admits that

Yes, we know she's not rokkenjima prime murder, therefor not the "real" culprit

Beside, Shkanontrice is only thing that fits all the red text, give up.

>>6805612
This.
Even if someone actually "gets" umineko, there is still no definite answer that could deny all the others by pointing where they are wrong.

>>6805574
I'm just saying Yasu is not the culprit. There are many clues pointing that out through the novels. 'Without love, it cannot be seen', and the trust between the author and readers in mystery R07's been trying to tell us makes it clear. But I guess many don't see it this way, so I don't judge you as so.

But for some reason, people seem to disregard all those even when they are right in front of them and think of Yasu as a psychotic murderer. And to be honest I'd think the same, if there weren't so many clues implying otherwise.
It's not about "you are wrong and I am right", but that it makes much more sense this way.

I believe a few other people, including myself, have been trying to hammer this to everyone in the previous threads. Some call it white knighting Yasu, others actually see our point and know that's the most likely thing.

Episode 7's tea party has fiction and is not the absolute truth, but it pretty much gives a lot of clues about what really happened there, and you can see Yasu is not the one behind it. For instance, the weapons in the room with the gold weren't even maintained, and if you think about it, you can reconstruct this part by deducing Yasu hid the weapons in that room because s/he thought they'd never make it there and it would be a safe palce to hide them.
When they got there, you can see by Yasu's reaction that s/he has given up on everything by then.
S/he is just a kid with a charming character trait that got caught in a twisted fate and gave up at the end of it.

As for the real culprit(s), I guess it's pretty obvious by now if you follow this perspective.

It' alright if you disagree with this. Again, there are many things left open so it's impossible to prove this with certainty, but it does make sense. More than anything else. At least for me.

>>6805667
>Shkanontrice is only thing that fits all the red text
Ep 3: "6 people: Kinzo, Genji, Shannon, Kanon, Gohda, and Kumasawa are dead!"
Ep 6: "[......Sorry, but...] Even if you do join us-
There are 17 people."

>>6805612

You don't need to be smart to get Shkanontrice, since, you know, two episodes were essentially devoted to that.

Despite how much i hate R07 right now, it's fanbase is truly retarded, making theories without any base just because.

"Hey, maybe Jessica is actually Battler who is Shannon" No, there's no need to shit like that at this point, stop it.

>>6805680
>Ep 3: "6 people: Kinzo, Genji, Shannon, Kanon, Gohda, and Kumasawa are dead!"

Yasu is three people, Shannon, Kanon and Beatrice.
Or Eva and Rosa simply killed her once they found the gold, take your pick.

>Ep 6: "[......Sorry, but...] Even if you do join us-
There are 17 people."

Yes, because there are 17 people. 17 human bodies.

>>6805676

>>6805676
>I'm just saying Yasu is not the culprit. There are many clues pointing that out through the novels. 'Without love, it cannot be seen', and the trust between the author and readers in mystery R07's been trying to tell us makes it clear. But I guess many don't see it this way, so I don't judge you as so.
But yeah... That's why isn't the culprit in the true accident.
But she has been in all the episodes, but none of the episodes was the true thing.

>>6805676
The guns were loaded.
And they were maintained otherwise they wouldn't be able to kill anyone.
The reason their aim/power sucked was simply because they were fucking sawed-off Winchester, anyone who know just a little about guns know how fucking retarded this is.

Oh and that fake murder shit is stupid, it's pretty funny that you claim that others don't get Umineko when you are the farthest one from the truth.

>>6805701
You don't get it. In ep3, Kanon is counted as one person, while in ep6 he isn't.
If people = personalities, then it should still be 18 people in ep6. If people = number of bodies, then ep3 is wrong.
This is an inconsistency in the red. R07 could just have changed the red texto to "Kinzo, Genji, Shannon, Kanon, Gohda, and Kumasawa are dead!" to avoid the logic error, but he didn't. I wonder why. Did he not notice it?

>>6805731
Well, I guess this goes with a bit of logic from previous episodes.

In EP6, Battler claimed to know the truth, and the sixth game was to prove he was right. According to his plans as the Game Master, everyone killed there was supposed to be faking their deaths. Fake murders.
To prove his point.

Except Erika "re-killed" them, ruining Battler's plans, and thus led to that confusing situation and logic error.

>>6805740
It's entirely possible that this is an issue of translation. Perhaps the Ep3 red text and EP4 red text use different kanji to refer to "people"

>>6805757
It could be.

>>6805757
>EP6

>>6805763
Yeah, the one that was a confession, as stated in the description.

>>6805750
The gamemaster can make any tale he wants if he keeps the heart.
Battler showed the heart so he could do anything else he wanted.
He decided to do a fake murder for 2 reasons, because he is too soft and because he didn't want Erika to find the truth.
Murder = something to investigate = a way for Erika to find the truth.
No murder = nothing to investigate.
This notion was even stated by Lambda in one of the early episodes.

>>6805740
There are 16 people.
Erika was the 18th, but that is with Yasu-the-trilogy (minus the witches).
Erika also happens to be dead.

But if she did count as one, it turns out as 17.

>>6805794
That's vague and in the end doesn't make much sense.
Furthermore, in the end it doesn't make it possible to gather all pieces together to see the whole picture.

But if that's what you believe, then by all means keep it that way.

>>6805810
You are the one who is being vague.
It was stated again and again and again that Yasu was planning on killing people there, that she was betting everything she had, that she was just letting fate do its job, etc....
How the fuck does fake murder compound with this?
Without fake murder everything about Yasu make complete sense.

>Will: "Here's the culprit"
>People still debating whatever Shkanontrice is ep 1-4 culprit

Really, i'm starting to empathize with R07 mocking his fanbase.

I think I finally got it, /jp/.

We we led astray. Umineko itself is the red herring, even though it does contain hints for the real mystery. What mystery? The REAL one that happens in REALITY: BT's death.

If this fake murder thing really holds its ground, then why didn't Will as the non-biased investigator not show any hints towards this?
Heck, Ryukishi even stated that he included him in the main role because he thought people would doubt Battler too much.

>>6805810

Battler didn't even want to use Shkanontrice, of course he did fake murders.

>>6805827

But, in the end, he and R07 are reunited in the Golden Land.
Isn't this sweet... wait, this would mean R07 is dead.

Who is writing Umineko then?

>>6805866

>>6805213
Bern said "All of this is not necessarily true." She never said everything was a lie. However, judging Ange's reaction when she saw the One Truth, I wouldn't be surprised if Rudolph and Kyrie are indeed the culprits.

>>6805824
>minagoroshi
>the great play, everything prepared, sit back and enjoy it, there is no difficulity.
>E7
>there is a little difficulity

>>6805902
It was R07 who said "BT" then, muffled under frills. It was R07 who closed his eyes. It was Bernkastel who opened them again.

It seems to me that the whole thing is meant to be viewed as a chess board, or if you want to say it in other words, a role playing game. Which means each characters have set restrictions on them for behavior and actions. Past that, you are allowed to write anything with these characters, or in other words, move them anywhere on the board, following the rules.

The problem is that we don't really get any rules about the movement of each piece, instead we get to observe them. (But some information like "no secret doors" prevent them from moving in certain ways)

Episode one shows that Beatrice could kill everyone. Due to having servants that would help her, and a pile of guns, it is a possible scenario. But since you don't have to write any actual truth, just play by the rules, you could say Beatrice killed them all with magic.

Nope.

Well, this is a bit of a problem.

I am seriously amazed this thread survived.
I tried to save threads from bumping off the board, but to no avail.
Yet this thread didn't fall off.

>>6806532

This thread has love

>>6806532
I saw this thread hanging onto page 13 and decided that fuck it if the last on-topic thread on /jp/ will die. Glad to see it survived. Just have to recreate the other threads now, really.

>>6804904
Not necessarily. She probably had Yasu dressed as a man to visit her school festival as her boyfriend. Notice the thick coat. Perfect to hide oppai, if you know what i mean.

ALSO FUCK YEAR TO STRAIGHT FEMALE YASU!!

>>6805827
So how did BT die?

>>6806594
>Not necessarily. She probably had Yasu dressed as a man to visit her school festival as her boyfriend. Notice the thick coat. Perfect to hide oppai, if you know what i mean.

Yasu has no tits, so no.

>>6806594
But everyone knows bisexual female Yasu is where it's at.

>>6806599

R07 killed him

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uI6eUP2Xvis

Where this come from?

>>6806651
Bisexual female Yasu is best Yasu

>>6806698
>female

There are other version of him?

>>6806638
I don't consider Lion to be physically identical to Yasu. It's not like we see anyone resembling Lion on the usual Rokkenjima.

The message of the fucking game series is that you can do things in a magical way as long as you can do it without too.

Through Battler's twisted mind and Ange's mad brain capabilities, she's able to filter the truth behind all of the shit. Most of the time, Ange IS Battler. Everytime we saw him struggle with the riddles, it was her mind trying to figure out the truth. The moment "Battler" found it out was probably the moment a part of Ange's mind found it out too. After that she needed to unlock it with the diary of Eva, which was just a symbol to unlock her own restrictions. The same truth that made Battler mad nearly made her mad too, but somehow she evaded it (lol, inb4 she's already mad, she sees things).

We never saw what Battler did in the "real world". Even the real world magically shown by Bern to Ange is an effort of her own mind, although it's most likely true. The "real" truth she saw later was the revised, even more cruel version of that she already had "in mind".

Every single game we saw is a mindfuck created by Ange to troll herself. All the magical characters represent certain capabilities linked to their real counterparts and enabled Ange to think even more outside of the box as she usually does.

I suppose that several children of the Ushiromiya family share these capabilities (or call it madness). Maria might be the best example. Or Yasu, if she really had those delusions of other characters.

The more I write about this the more I understand. It still fucks with my mind.

>>6806762
And the more I read about this the more I believe that R07 has been a troll since about ep 6 since he didn't know what to do, so he set up some conflicting points here and there to let people unleash their fantasy and then sat back.
Glad that you managed to find a sense that you like, although.

>>6806740
>I don't consider Lion to be physically identical to Yasu.

Battler didn't even know who Lion was when they met.
This could mean 2 things:
1. For some reason, Yasu and Lion do not look alike.
2. Battler doesn't know Yasu's real shape, just ShKanontrice.

I wouldn't be surprised if Battler never got to know Yasu's story.

>>6806811
Thank you. Until now I'm still consistent will all facts mentioned in the thread. (facts only, not their interpretations)

For all the "whodunnit"-fags wondering around: The "game" of the 8th episode was pretty much made to figure it out who really was behind it. Even provided with the "howdunnit". The "whydunnit" lies in ep7 or your own brains if you're not satisfied. Although "GOLD" sounds rather reasonable, doesn't it?

>>6806762
>The message of the fucking game series is that you can do things in a magical way as long as you can do it without too.

The message of the story is nothing but your typical post-modern critique on everything we got from the Enlightenment. That's precisely the purpose of magic. Notice that, whenever there was something Battler couldn't explain, he still said it couldn't be magic, even if he didn't have any way to prove it. That's not so different from your religious person saying that x or y event is a miracle from some god.

The point is that truth is subjective (terrible theme for something that was supposedly a mystery novel - but, all the same, there was the whole this is no mystery but fantasy from the beginning). That's why you see a girl who, even if her mother is terrible, the girl believes she's been possessed by an evil witch. Or when you see a woman who believes that the ghost of her father in law acknowledges her, whereas he never did so in life. Or the girl who thought that the boy who promised to come back to fetch her didn't do it, because that was a test from God.

tl;dr: The truth is in the eye of the beholder.

>>6806852
Battler knows the truth about Beatrice, he must know everything about Yasu. I liked the old theory that Lion is male and Yasu female, them looking different naturally. Maybe Natsuhi only leaves the male successor.

>>6806852

Beatrice and Lion don't look alike though. Beato looks like the woman in the portrait. She's "fantasy" after all.

ShKanon is probably more close to Lion as far the resemblance go, but Yasu has a defective body and she probably use make-up.

>>6806852
"Battler" is Ange's "image of Battler", so we should not know.

Still, I think the real Battler found out everything, considering "his" messages.

Btw, Lion is also a mental representation of a What-If Yasu, also made by Ange's mind (or magic). I also strongly disagree with Lion being phyically identical to Yasu. Lion is supposed to be more healthy, and definetly way more musuline, male or not.

>>6806638
It's so nice that Will doesn't care about gender and even likes pettan, isn't it, Lion?

>>6806951
That's my point. You have to substract every single inch of sanity from every main character before you can even start to theorize about how the story went that way. That's pretty much religion, don't you agree?

>>6806979
The problem is that theory makes little to no sense. Natsuhi didn't throw Yasu off the cliff for being female, she threw her off the cliff because of her own inferiority complex about not being able to give birth to a child, and then Yasu was imposed on her. Her pride was shattered even further.

>>6806998
>Beatrice and Lion don't look alike though.

Incorrect, right after Lion introduced herself, Beatrice did say something like "oh! we do look alike."

>>6807082
>Incorrect, right after Lion introduced herself, Beatrice did say something like "oh! we do look alike."

Not shit, she's his "mother"

I think he meant they haven't the same face

>>6807049
That's pretty much any claim, dude, not only religion. Sure, religion is generally based on dogmas, and that's the end of it. Whereas in science, there's always continuous experimentation. However, the only things religion and science can give you are beliefs - religion because it's not based on proof but faith, and science because there's always the chance that newer findings may change what we believe is true at the moment.

>>6807031

Neither do Kinzo!


Isn't this great, Lion?

UMINEKO

Before episode 5
EVERYTHING MATTERS
DENY THE WITCH
I'M FUCKING FURNITURE AND I ENDORSE THIS MESSAGE: WITCHES EXIST
OH NO YOU DIDN'T
>merriment.jpg

Before Episode 7
SHKANNONTRICE IS CANNON
God, is this even real? This is so stupid.
Man, I hope episode 8 makes everything better.
>expectedly waiting

Episode 8
NOTHING MATTERS
FUCK YOU MAYBE THIS MATTERS
NO. NOTHING FUCKING MATTERS AND YOU'RE A DICK FOR THINKING OTHERWISE
WOULD HE REALLY PUT SO MUCH EFFORT INTO SOMETHING THAT DOESN'T FUCKING MATTER
HE'S A FUCKING TROLL THAT WOULD HAVE GOTTEN A FUCKLOAD OF MONEY FROM US FOR EACH EPISODE IF WE ACTUALLY PAID FOR THIS
THAT DOESN'T MATTER
THE FUCK IT DOESN'T
>trolled.jpg

>>6807082
How did Beato get in this comparison anyway? Beato should probably resemble both Yasu and Lion vaguely, being their mother and all. If Beato was speaking of the real her, Yasu, well of course she resembles Lion as well. Just how much she does is totally unclear anyway.

Regarding the child, female successor to the family is basically not a successor at all from Ushiromiya's point of view. Some weird child of shady origins would grow up only to pass the headship to whatever man she marries. Male successor will at least be the real head.

>>6807144
>Episode 8
>NOTHING MATTERS

Try to read it again. Everything matters. I'm not kidding.

>>6807107
The problem is that in EP7, when Yasu dressed as Beatrice, Kinzo did say Yasu's face resembled that of the previous Beatrice. In addition, we have several people in EP1-4 who recognised Beatrice by her face, even Battler. So, Yasu does resemble Beatrice.

Sure, just because Yasu and Lion resemble Beatrice doesn't mean they look the same. But, considering we've been told they are the same person who lived under different circumstances, then I wouldn't think it'd be too much of a stretch to think Yasu and Lion do look the same.

And thus, my theory that, since Battler didn't recognise Lion, then he probably doesn't know Yasu's real shape.

Notice that, throughout the games, Yasu wanted Battler to understand her, but she also wanted him to recognise her as Beatrice, and that's what he's doing.

Of course, I'm not claiming this is the truth, but I believe it's a possible theory.

>>6807178
No.

NOTHING MATTERS

>>6807159

I think Kinzo would make an exception for Lion/Yasu, aka Beatrice 3. After all, Kraus wasn't even the successor this time, Lion was.

>>6807202
Of course Kinzo would. And he actually does and dies with no regrets. Not that Natsuhi has any idea that the child is Kinzo's. And Beatrice's, at that.

>>6807159
>Regarding the child, female successor to the family is basically not a successor at all from Ushiromiya's point of view. Some weird child of shady origins would grow up only to pass the headship to whatever man she marries. Male successor will at least be the real head.

I'm going by Natsuhi's behaviour and what I believe her character development was in EP5. I don't think the sex of the child mattered at all to her, but the fact that she didn't give birth to that child.

>>6807129
It's funny how you explain the broad difference and add a comment like "yep, but that's all".
The whole belief thing in the novels is there due to the inability to use experiments to check the claims. Since Ange can't advance with science she tries to use beliefs to go further, and actually tries to do science with it. that happens contained inside the borders she drew herself, the red truth.

>>6807195
"The same" is a stretch, though. Yasu has her physical condition and a very different life behind her. Being the same person, she will of course recognize her own features, and she actually knows who that is. Battler, however, seeing Lion for the first time, is not guaranteed to notice the resemblance right away. My point is that Battler not recognizing Lion doesn't mean much.

>>6807238
I wasn't talking about the game in that post. I was only replying to the: "That's pretty much religion, don't you agree?" bit.

In addition, even if enough evidence had remained to try to make some actual experimentation and a better investigation regarding the events in Rokkenjima, had the result been something Ange didn't like, there's nothing to say she'd accepted it. We have several scenes with people experimenting bad things first-hand, and even then, they prefer to believe something else.

>>6807251
I know they have different lives, but I was exclusively speaking about physical resemblance. Sure, Yasu has whatever physical condition she has. However, unless she has a clear deformity in her face, then I don't think there'd be a reason for Battler not to recognise them, I think.

>>6807278
Well, since she also denied her own results first, I consider it rather obvious for her to do the same with scientific experiments on the crime scene. In the end she accepted it. But we were talking about the purpose of "magic" in the story.

In the earlier stories it's labeled as the counterpart to science&logic, which would fit your argumentation, if I understood >>6806951 in the right way.

However, we were shown by BATTLER that the real purpose in the story was to represent the "uncertainity" in a way to destroy constructs of false certainity. This pretty much negates the purpose of belief. I mean, that was the whole point of Erika's active role.

>>6807359
Indeed, and I agree with you. My point about beliefs refers to the part of the story about accepting a result.

In the story we have a good degree of uncertainty, and thus things like magic and human-made-crimes can co-exist as interpretations for the same event. There's not enough evidence to deny either, since everything got blown in a explosion.

My point about beliefs is what you decide to do with any particular result, regardless of whether it's based on mere speculation, or actual research. This is why I mentioned people experiencing bad things first-hand, and even then denying them, or even interpreting them in a way that would look absurd.

>>6807406
>>6807359
>>6807278
>>6807238

wtf guys

>>6807406
Well, I'm ok with that. I should have been more careful with calling it "religion" at some point. But I'm not sure if it's critique only, since pretty everything around white magic suggests that slight delusions are price worth to pay for a better life. And I'm not fully sure about the author being sarcastic at this point.

>>6807429
This is basically a discussion about a specific informational layer of the told story.

I think the true culprit was Jessica because she played a useless role in the story and the murderer is always the one with the least relevance.

This was actually a decent thread. Too bad it seems to have died.

>>6807703
I hoped so too before I read 8. Now it's over. Jessica is one of the poorer fellows who didn't deserve her fate. All she did was crossdress Yasu once, and I'm pretty sure Yasu agreed with it that time.

DICKS

>>6807783
actually someone please a shop of that with kinzo - oaks
gary - yasu
ash - battler
question -
kinzo: this is the culprit and also the heir to the ushiromiya line, who is it again?
battler: DICKS
sign: picture of beatrice(maybe with dead people?).

>>6807510
>But I'm not sure if it's critique only, since pretty everything around white magic suggests that slight delusions are price worth to pay for a better life.

With critique, I meant the post-modern idea about objective truth being non-existent, whilst by the Enlightenment we received the idea that we could find such things by research.

The thing about white-magic is what I meant about accepting results. Even if a situation seems to look bad, it is up to the person to decide what to make out of it, and no one else can and/or should force their ideas on others.

>>6807197
So you've read Ep8.

So you must understand Japanese and most definitely didn't just read some out of context spoilers?

Yasu is a man, right

>>6808761
Yasu's gender is the true cat box of Umineko.

>>6808761
>>6808788
Umineko have repeated the cat box thing over and over again.
And now, Ryukishi may not have gone with real quantum physics here but if we were to apply the real quantum theory

Yasu is both.
Or rather, you won't know thus s/he falls into the superposition argument in which s/he can be argued to be both at the same time, while still not being both while being one of them.

That was sort of the point of Schrödinger's cat thesis, one he made while pointing out the absurdity of quantum physics.

Though that is, until you open the box.
So someone would have to strip Yasu.

>>6808834
I don't care why you guys care.
One way or the other, there's still the mouth and the pooper.

THINK OUTSIDE THE BOX!

>>6808834
>So someone would have to strip Yasu.
This looks like a case for Wizard Hunting Wright.

Yes I know it's technically Lion in the picture but who cares.

>So someone would have to strip Yasu.
This looks like a case for Wizard Hunting Wright.

Yes I know it's technically Lion in the picture but who cares.

>>6809099
Kanon didn't exist, so Yasu is a male.

I'm actually convinced that since Shannon and Clair (the ghost of Rokkenjima) are the first, primary personalities of Yasu, Yasu is actually female because the personalities are female.

Kanon was "secondary" due to his feminine traits and male gender.

>>6809237
Fuck yeah.

Oh, and Battler is a breast man. There's no way he'd immediately go gay for a male Beatrice / Shannon unless Ryukishi intended this to be so.

All the more reason to think Yasu is female.

>>6809263
or so you say...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=umlx6rEbofk

sillyfag here, question about personalities:

Kumasawa = virgilia

and the others?

The Gaap theory also seems a bit vague when you take a closer look at it. Basically, Yasu wants to be Gaap/Beatrice if she weren't so imperfect.

Also, Maria helped with some magical characters.

>>6809349
Ronove = Genji
Gaap = Yasu blaming something else for her absentmindedness
Seven Stakes = The other servants, Yasu imagining herself as their master.
Siesta Sisters = A combination of some of Maria's bunny toys and guns.

>>6809263

Lion is feminine enough to pass as a girl if he wants, assuming Yasu has a broken penis and a fake vagina s/he's practically a flat-chested woman a that point.

>>6809237

Judging by the ending, it looked like Will was going to open that Box soon.

Can someone explain, are episodes 7-8 fiction inside fiction too? It was stated that 1-6 were written by Yasu and Battler respectively, but nothing was said about 7-8, and I highly doubt that Battler would write something like that just because of amnesia.

I only finished ep 7 about 4 hours ago. I don't know anything about ep 8.

I'm probably wrong, but it seems to me that everything we've been shown is just bullshit. Shannon/Yasu/whoever is Beatrice, but she never killed anyone. Family killed eachother. And that every game was just Ange trying to find a "truth" that Beatrice was the killer so she could continue denying that her parents were killers.

Also unless I just zoned out and missed it, we didn't see Battler die in the tea party, so what? Either he is alive or just wandered around till the place blew up.


Feels like I've wasted my time reading these games.

>>6810568
I still think you might enjoy episode 8. Just don't read spoilers about it, most of them are bullshit.

>>6808761
>>6808788
>>6808834
>>6809099
>>6809244
Yasu is definetly female. Kanon only appeared once in the "real world". Jessica used Yasu to pose as her boyfriend. It's basically this: >>6806594

Both Lion and Kanon are masuline fantasies of Yasu.

Give it up, guys. Yasu has tits. BIG ones.

So what is Yasu's disability?

>>6810694
>Kanon only appeared once in the "real world".
No. Read 1-4 all over again.

>>6810747
A weak body could be one. Or a weak mind prone to delusions. Since Ange, Maria and Battler have/had this too, it could be a genetic trait in the family. Because of Yasu's circumstances, she could have had a higher risk of suffering from that.

>>6810758
No. Read 1-7 again and beg someone to translate 8 for you. Or better, don't just say "no" and provide an example. Simple troll-kun.

>>6810758
So the thread has made a loop and we're back at "Battler's viewpoint is reliable", huh.

>>6810772
Better don't bother yourself with that.

>>6810694
>Yasu has tits. BIG ones.

Yasu tits are probably small or s/he's even flat-chested because of the injury.

>>6810812
Yasu is so hardcore she gradually increases the size of her pads to keep consistency.
captcha: outism architect

>>6810850

Poor anon wants his waifu to have big tits

Lion, who is Yasu without defects from the wall, has small tits or is flat-chested, to the point that Will can't tell his sex.

And if Yasu has big tits, how does she hide them when she cosplays as Shannon? Please, don't say that "they are stories, it doesn't matter", because it still requires consistency and Shannon definitely poses as Kanon in them. (Ep 1, Yasu meets Battler, Ep 3 Yasu created the circle closed room)

EVERYTHING WAS A LIE.
We went from "Poirot Investigations" to an half assed love story, WHY.

>my face when Battler's sin was a joke, literally.

/jp/ full of faggots

>>6810894

>>6810872
>half assed love story,
THE HEART. THE HEART. THE HEART. THE HEART. THE HEART. THE HEART. THE HEART. THE HEART. THE HEART. THE HEART. THE HEART. THE HEART. THE HEART. THE HEART. THE HEART. THE HEART. THE HEART. THE HEART. THE HEART. THE HEART. THE HEART. THE HEART. THE HEART.

>>6810864
Too bad Lion is a construct of Ange's mind.

Posing as "Shannon" does not require Yasu to hide her boobs. As Kanon she hides them under the coat.

>Please, don't say that "they are stories, it doesn't matter", because it still requires consistency and Shannon definitely poses as Kanon in them.

There might still be a way to do some cover-up by tying her chest with bandages. Even though it's more likely with smaller or no boobs, I won't dare to make a statement in this direction. The only appearance of a character that was declared to be certain, was in fact Kinzou's.

>>6810893
Only if you consider "breaking a poor heroine's heart" to be a joke.

>>6810926
>Too bad Lion is a construct of Ange's mind.

Yeah, no.
And the story still require consistency. Otherwise, anyone can claim anything

"Derp, real word Nanjo is tiny, beautiful loli"

>Posing as "Shannon" does not require Yasu to hide her boobs. As Kanon she hides them under the coat.

I meant Kanon.
You can hide tits, but you can't hide tits THAT big.
Battler saw Kanon in ep 1.

Do you have an issue with flat-chested? Because, seriously.

>>6811018
>Do you have an issue with flat-chested? Because, seriously.
Well, they aren't my taste, but I don't have issues with them. How about you?

>Too bad Lion is a construct of Ange's mind.
>Yeah, no.
Then call it magic, for all that I care. Lion is still seen from Ange's perspective. Like nearly everything in the story is seen from her perspective, with two exceptions (but I'm not even completely sure about one of the two).

I'm still not convinced by an androgynous appearance. I think it's more consistent to assume an appearance that allowed Yasu to hide her breasts, but a flat-chest goes too far.

>>6811068
>Well, they aren't my taste, but I don't have issues with them. How about you?

I don't care, i just try to analyze the story and piece things together

>Then call it magic, for all that I care. Lion is still seen from Ange's perspective. Like nearly everything in the story is seen from her perspective, with two exceptions (but I'm not even completely sure about one of the two).

No, it's not.. and beside, Lion si DESCRIBED in the story as androgynous. You can't tell his/her sex in the story.

>I'm still not convinced by an androgynous appearance. I think it's more consistent to assume an appearance that allowed Yasu to hide her breasts, but a flat-chest goes too far.

Then, call it small tits.

Battler and George went hot about "Shannon" tits...

In 1980.

>>6811245
What? No one mentioned tits back then. And George is a creepy jealous pedo.

Guys guys.
This >>6808834 is how the catboxes works, unless Ryu07's definition differ from what it actually is.

>>6810926
obviously you never had big tits you tried to flatten by bandages. trust me, it only works on small ones.

my bet is Yasu is intersex, with female gender identity.

>>6811536
>obviously you never had...
Do you think Ryu07 has?
The ability to hide tits with bandages is a "common" myth in japanese medias. I didn't want to imply that it actually works with big tits. I think I wrote something like "likely" to express this.

In another way, you could try to interpret the result of the love trials as an answer to the question of the gender. But that's highly speculative and I'm not sure if it was intended that way.

Big tits for Japanese is like a B-cup

Bandage theory proven

>>6811596

Even Ange as a 6 years old has tits.
Yet Leon doesn't.
I think this proves something.

>>6811624
Keep tryin', yaoi bitches.

Re-reading some segments, some part of the story are really hilarious

>>6811554
damn i'm beeing to realistic again. you have a point, anon.

>>6811667

Damn, this is some high level trolling

>>6811260
Check again.

It was mentioned.

>>6811671

>>6811695
And then Yasu killed everyone.

>>6811700

Tough that scene it's really, why does Rosa accuse Kanon if she's an accomplice?

>>6811260
Actually it was mentioned

>>6811710
To keep the suspicion off herself?

>>6811719
Remember, Battler was like, 13 at the time.

13 year olds are horny little pricks.

Are people still in denial about Umineko being fantasy?

Come on. Just enjoy your Meta World shenanigans like the rest of us.

>>6811178
It's not really important, but for what it's worth, while Lion is androgynous, it's lightly implied Will actually did think he was a guy, at least at first. He refers to him with a male-specific term ("bochan") while they're still getting to know each other.

>All of Umineko is fiction. You still have to trust something in the context of that fiction.

>In the rules set by Umineko, anything seen by Battler = True. With Ep5 being the sole exception

How the hell does Kanon work then? Really, all I'm asking for is that the fiction remain consistent. There were well defined rules governing the story.

>>6810297
It's not clear, but I sort of doubt it. Unless you want to go the "absolutely nothing is real, ever, including the endings" route (some people have), Ange personally remembers the events of EP8 happening to her (plus the lol doll thing). Meanwhile, Meta-Battler and Meta-Beatrice have no idea who Will and Lion are when they meet them.

You never see Battler seeing Kanon and Shannon in the same room.

>>6811695
oh god

>>6812020
>How the hell does Kanon work then?

Yasu dresses up as Kanon, pretends to be a boy. Awakens latent bisexuality, begins to fall for Jessica, is deeply confused.

Genji adds Kanon to the servant roster

It's not that complex.

>>6812057

The problem is, Yasu acts like he knew Genji was going to help him.

>>6812089
Maybe she did?

Genji was Yasu's father figure, Genji probably did go along with what she wanted a lot of the time

Genji was always loyal to _the master_

What if he was referring to Yasu the whole time?

>>6812133
That's probably the case.

Has anyone considered that Yasu has to take hormones due to her accident?

Okay, let's say she injured her genitals during the fall. Nanjo's operation likely attempted to construct a female looking anatomy, or at least an intersex one. Now, I've read stories about people who have gone through injuries like this, and it is generally considered more reasonable to raise these people as girls, giving them hormones so that they develop some female secondary sex characteristics. Additionally, since the male sex organs were likely removed, there's no reason there would be any kind of androgens floating around in her system.

Hell, there was even an Law and Order episode about this somewhere. Anyways, the point is, it's possible for Yasu to be male in one reality and female in the other reality. Only thing is, when she's female, she's likely taking pills that make her boobies grow.

and considering how many crossdressing/wannabe traps are on this board, they probably know all about this shit.

Remember meh, guys?

>>6812168
Who are you?

wouldn't it be easier to think she/he was BORN intersex? it would explain why Lion is as androgynous as Yasu.
where did you take that "castrated by fall" theory from? it doesn't work, IMO.

>>6812189
Why the hell has a character to be a trap or a herm? Since Yasu never had sex with any other character, I can't even think why anyone would suggest this. What's the motivation?

>>6812198
This is too easy, the earlier pics wouldn't even be required for this. Yasu confessed to Jessica and made her work together with her - since Kanon died right there.

>>6812212
you have a point, Yasu may be just looking androgynous and be simply male or female. though i think it's implied in the story that Yasu has gender problems. anyway my point its she/he doesn't need to be castrated by fall for shit to work.

>>6812168
Sup Moon-chan

>>6812212
Because the point is brought up in the story itself that Yasu has gender issues, which seems to be part of what's fucking up her head.

>>6812189

I don't think Lion haS any problem with his/her penis/vagoo, s/he seems to imply people often confuse his/her gender, but that s/he definitely has one.

Plus, i'm not sure how much hermaphroditism has to do with being androgynous.

But whatever. Will will tap him/her either way.

>>6804840 yeah but you can have gender issues without actually beeing intersex/transsexual/whatever. that's why i think hehas a point.

>>6812198

Kanon is Jessica, wat?

>>6812234
I think the whole "male" thing is one big troll attempt and many people are falling for it even now.

With the "absolutely nothing is real, ever, including the endings" theory, every single encounter with Kanon is fiction. Lion is fiction.

My starting point is that Jessica asked or forced Yasu (as Shannon) to help her with her boyfriend problem in front of her school. We were shown that they talked about that. This is an event that happened before the cat box, therefore I consider it as "truth" right now.

So, based on the school event, Yasu got inspiriation to create another character, since she got curious in performing a male role. This male role was inplemented into the the fiction arcs.

Lion was a plot device to force the reader to think differently about the Kanon/Shannon issue. Considering their gender, Shannon and Kanon were portrayed as "clear" members of their respective gender. Their love life forced this even more. They were "too strict" female | male. Without Lion being portrayed as male/uncertain character, most people might have doubted the whole Kanon = Shannon part much stronger than they actually did.

I consider "herm" as very unlikely due to the Japanese society. Although women do have a higher position in (very) specific areas, in most social structures men are considered to be more important. If the question was raised if Yasu was to be raised as male or female, the choice would most lilkely be male. Raising as herm is out of questions, this is around the 70's, and on top of that, in Japan. Don't dare to stick out in society.

Therefore, if there even is a gender question, it would most likely have to be between male or female. All the points we have strongly lead to female who wanted to experiment a bit/dress up. A big sorry to the Kanon shippers, if they even still exist.

Lion/Yasu has to be female, no straight guy would pinch other people's asses, especially not men's.

>>6812315
>>6812233
だろう。。

>>6812361

No straight guy would fall in love with other men. By definition.

>>6812271
It is said in the game Yasu's gender is a "mystery outside the gameboard". If anything, I think it's Ryu trolling us. Yasu's gender is unknown, she may not have gender issues in reality.

>>6812305
>But whatever. Will will tap him/her either way.

This is the correct attitude to take.

>>6812367
Nah. Will said that the ambiguity was there as male/female from the beginning, through Shannon and Kanon. Zepar and Furfur just drive it home further.

>>6812361
If Lion's a guy, it's pretty obvious he's not exactly straight.

Not that even straight guys would be able to resist Will's ass, but that is beside the point.

>>6812386
But you will never be able to see Will's ass.

>>6812378
Yeah, I remember that. And I got the impression Will was implying it's gender was kept mystery for us, not saying that Yasu has any actual gender issues. I can totally see Ryu confusing us like this on purpouse.

Lion's gender changes based off who is being molested.

When Jessica's tender behind is being pinched, Lion's a dude. When it's Will's, Lion's a girl

>>6812405
With love, it can be seen.

In Ogon Musou Kyoku, Zepar (apparently, maybe Furfur) has a manly voice. If there was a Chiru anime for example there'd be no way to confuse their gender.

>>6812420
>With MAKING love, it can be seen.
Another mystery solved. Gold truth, here I come!!

>>6812454
It's Zepar's voice, it's in the ending credits.

I like his voice.

>>6812454
Zepar has the manly voice and Furfur has the good voice.

>>6812468
But with his voice the gender confusion doesn't work anymore.

>>6812468

Zepar's VA is a woman. No I'm not trolling

http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/encyclopedia/people.php?id=411

>>6812488
That doesn't change that Zepar is a man.

>>6812488
Yeah, she does some manly voices, and I think she's perfect for Zepar.

>>6812488
...Okay, that was freaky. I haven't done netplay yet, so haven't listened to Zepar's voice, but I went "It'd be interesting if it's Mitsuki Saiga," and then opened the link...

Am I a wizard?

>>6812505
Listen to his fugly voice:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wF0kqZrs0u8

>>6812517
Oh hey, it's Kuronosuke.

>>6812356
raising someone as a herm=/=beeing born intersex=/=having gender issues
he/she may have been raised as a male, and still get gender issues anyway (due to the genral physical androgyny). beeing intersex explaining physical androgyny, but not necfessary for the plot.
than again Lion not having clear (mental) gender issues could be due to upbringing. Or Yasu was really castrated by the fall.
it's all one huge fuckin dickstery.

my epic shemale theory once again in more detail: Yasu is intersex, Lion was probably raised as a male (IMO), due to lack of accident is raised by normal parents instead of orphanage, probably was informed about the whole sex issue, maybe has some hormonal treatment, grows in a much more healthy enviroment than orphanage, so is generally more mentaly stable and doesn't make his gender that much of a deal. after the cliff fall nobody gave a damn about Yasu, she was probably given female gender (nobody cares=no need for a reason), but nobody cared about his/her actual upbringing or explaining why the heck does he/she look like some kinda shemale, thus gender issues.
or may be just a very androqynous looking male, same reason for gender issues as above. Shannon looking female because Genji was very accepting and went with whatever shit Yasu thought up.
or an androgynous looking female, Lion looking androgynous because she doesn't give a damn and was expected to be a family heir which is a male role by definition.
anyway i can think up any shit and i won't have any proof for any of the options above. but i think the physical gender is intersex just because i believe it was implied by the story and i like that theory, no other proof.

>>6812416
>When it's Will's, Lion's a girl

Why can't be the other way around!?

>>6812454

Ib4 it's revealed is the other way around

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=36FdvrMVKzk


S/he

>>6812549
Damn. I had the sudden urge to write parts of my answer in red, but that would be faggotry.

>after the cliff fall nobody gave a damn about Yasu, she was probably given female gender (nobody cares=no need for a reason), but nobody cared about his/her actual upbringing or explaining why the heck does he/she look like some kinda shemale, thus gender issues.
Genji cared. Thus, the orphanage had to care too, at least considering upbringing questions. The potential that Genji would summon a shitstorm if something went bad to that "special" child. We had notes about Yasu being treated special. I even go as far to say that Genji had her life as much under control as he could without being found out by Kinzou. Until Yasu discovered the treasure, Genji most likely treated her like a servant with limited benefits.

>but i think the physical gender is intersex just because i believe it was implied by the story and i like that theory, no other proof.
Some other anons posted comments about the implications, I think it was
>>6812367,
>>6812378, but more important,
>>6812413.

continuation from >>6812796

No problem with liking what you want. I consider the gender question as a sideline-troll, since in the end, nothing of it matters anymore. I consider Beato as Yasu's prime personality. The moment Beato comes close to Battler, every other pairing or partner becomes unimportant.

I guess at at least parts of motorboat escape ending Ange fantasized about actually happened, if not all (non-delusional).
This would mean: Battler "rescues" Yasu-Beatrice before his parents get close to her. The golden cave scene went different, the parents slaughered each other without inflicting a deadly wound to Yasu. Yasu gets herself out of the cave and finds the mind shaken Battler. She takes him to the submarine cave before his parents find and finish him (he doesn't remember how he found his way there). On their way or when they arrived there, Yasu tries to talk to Battler who is still in shock about everything, ending up telling him everything or at least enough to have him find it out on his own. They survive the explosion. Battler wants to leave everything behind and convinces Yasu to go with him, although she wanted to kill herself.

At this point, all the cheesy stuff happened. Straight cheesy stuff, if we don't imply that Battler had his mental crash at this point.

On the way to the main land, by accident or not, Yasu drowns (herself). Battler tried to rescue her, obviously failed and nearly died himself. This triggered the complete mental breakdown that sealed his memory and "self", which created Touya.

tl;dr: (>With MAKING love, it can be seen).

Genji is the only sane person in Umineko.

>>6812823
I seriously hope you meant Gohda.

>>6812823
Gouda, Kumasawa and Nanjo are sane too. Notice how all the insane people are direct or married members of the family. I bet the madness is spreaded by contact of the Mucous membrane. Wait, wasn't a kind of syndrome around in those kind of stories...?

>>6812848
So only those with Ushiromiya blood are insane. And maybe the Sumadera's too.

>>6812848
It's the Rokkenjima syndrome!

>>6812860
Has Anon seen the white ending?

Whose delusion do you think was it? Ange's? Or maybe Touya's/Battler's? It would be more funny if the poor Touya suffers from a personality/memory flashback in the ending scene produced by the room and "resurrects" as Battler. Then he begins to suffer from the delusions too.

I still believe ep VIII is just the fanfiction Battler put in Beato arms in VII

Ushiromiya insane?
Seriously?

Just because a guy wants to build an hotel on the moon and his wife speaks with the dead, I cannot see why their beautiful daughter can't be perfectly normal. It's not her fault if her boyfriend doesn't exist.

>>6812907
I think so too, about the "episode" part. The whole metafuck around it and the ending are different.
Meta part is that Ange read the fanfic/analyzed new clues and managed to complete the puzzle.
Ending parts are 2 shards in the multiverse of "When they cry", though the longer one is probably the "true" ending shard.

>>6811695
>>6812233
These are more of pointing out how fucking contradictory the whole writing is.

>>6812315
>Jessica starts coughing
>Kanon ressurects just so he can help her
You know what? You might be onto something. It's better than the current explanation of that which is Jessica must have trolled Yasu into becoming Kanon knowingly.

IS BATTLER REALLY STUCK IN 2010 WITH FEATHERLINE?!
DOES LION REALLY HAVE A TRALALA?!
WILL ROSA NOT BE SUCH A DIRTY HOE?!

ALL THIS IN THE NEXT EPISODE OF.......UMINEKO Z

didn't see ep8 cause don't know shit about japanese... but until ep7 I can't believe shannon and kanon is the same!
I agree shannon and beato/yasu is the same person different personalities, but if she's also kanon it break the red truth "there are 17 people on the island"

>>6813217
I won't talk much about the red truth right now, just one thing.
It is explained, that whole "alive" personalities, having a real body or not, count as a person.

And now you better leave this thread behind, it's full of spoilers and not even half of it is tagged.

>>6812932
>>6812907

Was ever explained how did Yasu know about Battler's birth?

Also, /r/equsting bigger version of this picture

>>6813345
Yeah, I understood what you meant. Still, the theory I'm currently falsifying requires this to be read/thought through by Ange.
The only ways for her to get this tale is either to gather clues in a different way and fabricate it on her own OR someone receive it through Touya's messages, which are guided by Battler's memory and intention.

Partly I consider BATTLER to be a subconcious cluster of Battler's personality traits and memories (golden truth included), which leaks to the real worlds surface through Touya's pen. He might even not fully realize that.
Ange however reads it, interprets it and has delusions about games played by BATTLER (through the messages).

This includes most of the meta-mindfuck, the reoccuring cases of delusions in the family and the INTENT symbolised by BATTLER, who seems to know way more than Ange does, even though he's a illusion fabricated by her mind/magic.

Basically, the cat box isn't a box deep in the ocean but parts in Touya's head, instead.

>>6813411
The Yasu we saw was an illusion fabricated by the mind of someone else. This Yasu knew more than the real Yasu.

On the other hand, Yasu could still knew or could have figured it out somehow. She was the family head for a considerable amount of time and had control over Genji, who seemed to have known nearly about everything in this wicked family. He (and Kinzou) might have known about Battler, from Rudolf.

>>6813435
>The Yasu we saw was an illusion fabricated by the mind of someone else. This Yasu knew more than the real Yasu.

Yes, but ep 1-2 contain clues about it, so Yasu had to know

>>6813461
She was obsessed over Battler for years. She also knew he had family issues. She had millions of yen to pay private detectives to figure out ever single shit she desires to know.

Even beside that, she probably found out about every single dirty secret the family had. She had access over the core servants.

Finding it out was inside her reach and she had enough motivation to do it. Maybe some of the meta events might reveal how she did it, in a metaphorical way.

I still think if one would abstract all the events shown, he/she could reconstruct the "truth" Battler witnessed himself. Buried below under all of the metafuck and magic stuff.

>>6813411
She searched many fragments for a miracle and came upon one where Rudolf tells Kyrie the truth

>>6813555

Yasu didn't become a "witch" until the meta-world

>>6813555
>>6813563
Meta-Beatrice isn't Yasu

who is meta beatrice then? some sort of psychological archetype that is a part of battler?

>>6813604
Every single character on Rokkenjima and the Meta-World is essentially a psychological archetype of Battler.

>>6813555
pic somehow related

>>6813610
however EP1 and EP2 are tales written by yasu

now that i think about it the metaworld in those eps would be battler reading those eps and analizing them or something to that effect

>>6813604
Part of Battler, part of Ange, part of Yasu, depending on whether the truth or Ange's memory had more influence on the specific character.

Remember that we have 2 Meta-Beatrices.
The first one, who turned silent after 4 (no more stories from Yasu) and died after 5. (End of Touya-Battler's interpretation and memory of Yasu's motivation, starting with his own stories with an own Beatrice, who follows his own motivation from that moment on -> 2nd)

The 2nd one, which was incomplete first. "Battler" inside Touya's mind couldn't replicate her core in a satisfying way, and was unsatisfied, "She's not the same..") until the memory cluster put everything together, became BATTLER and wrote the real deal from now on, knowing about everything. Thus, she was like before, since Battler knew everything and could predict/simulate her actions in the right way.

>>6813610

No, it's not, read the damn episode.
Meta-world has been proven, Ange remembers it and you even get to know what happened to Meta-characters like Dlanor and Will.

>>6813695
I read it.
Meta-world isn't proven at all, you are just a fucking retard.
You think there is really a tribunal in heaven made of personified rules written by some guys 80 years ago whose job is to annalyze fictional mystery or something?

And Ange is delusional, we knew about it since she first appeared.
Heck you could even say that everything we saw about Umineko was simply her perceptions of the stories she read.

>>6813563
Yasu became a "witch" in her own mind when she played that prank on Berune. This was well before solving the epitap

>>6813707
>You think there is really a tribunal in heaven made of personified rules written by some guys 80 years ago whose job is to annalyze fictional mystery or something?

You mean you HAVEN'T heard of them?

For shame Anon.

>>6813707

But, in philosophy of the mind, it's debatable how and in what state thinking perceptions exist in the physical world. If you agree that selves and feelings exist, that would be the level that the meta world as a whole exists.

>>6813707
The Meta-world partly happens in Ange's head? I still haven't read EP8.

any anons willing to upload a completed save file for eps1-4 and 5-7? lost my old ones during a hard drive wipe

>>6816327
just use the in-game unlock feature

>>6816333
didnt think about that..i'll try it later. not sure if it will unlock everything

>>6816333

It doesn't unlock ep iv end and ep vii end, you have to completed them again

>288 posts and 41 image replies omitted. Click Reply to view

So, how come people still discussing this shit after the shitty ending?

>>6816500
Mostly because the ending isn't shitty, but fucking sad.
People get frustrated about not understanding shit, because the actual reality of 1986 wasn't shown.

But go ahead and tell us why the ending is shitty.

>>6816534

It essentially makes everything we saw a dream in Battler autistic head

How isn't it shitty?

>>6816555
Sometimes in Ange's too. Every meta stuff outside the game board has to be in Ange's head, naturally.

>>6816500
Because nobody here knows the ending because nobody here can read Japanese.

Also I doubt the ending is bad because generally if /jp/ declares something "shit" there's a very large chance it's actually good.

>>6817137
The ending certainly isn't shitty. But it is kind of disappointing.

>>6817137
Well why is this getting so much bad reviews in egs then?

>>6817151
EGS is worse than /jp/

>>6817151
He admitted it himself, he can't read Japanese and is just assuming "4chan doesn't like it so it must be awesome". A+ logic there.

>>6817162
.. or just an indication for having deviant tastes compared to the "masses".

>>6817142
Because of the unanswered questions? Or because of the sad part / no happy end?

>>6817151
>>6817158
What does "EGS" refer to?

>>6817287
>What does "EGS" refer to?
Erogamescape. By the way, what are the reviews like right now? I'd find it myself but I'm godawful at navigating EGS.

Also, the EP2 manga is finished right? Does anyone have raws?