/jp/ - Otaku Culture

>>6791007


Ryukishi had hinted that this wasn't a mystery proper, but all of /jp/ got caught up in Anti-Mystery vs Anti-Fantasy to see the truth. In a mystery it is important to explain the "how dunnit" but Umineko wasn't a mystery so all we needed to construct was a motive and a culprit. The "how dunnit" was a secondary option, something to make the story re-readable for people like Bernkestal who'd like to "rip out the gutts" of the story. Its convoluted because it is expected that you'd reread this sometime from now and try to solve the how dunnit parts at your leisure once you've figured out the motive and the potential culprit. But like I mentioned before /jp/ lost sight of that and pretty much got their priorities mixed up.

tl;dr Ryukishi made a lot of promises as a writer and he fulfilled every one of it. Instead of raging let us all pat ourselves on the back for figuring most of these out ourselves. I hope you guys will come to enjoy the story as much as I did when I realized everything made sense.

Most of /jp/ would rage no matter what it was.

I have no idea about the ending, I haven't read spoilers. But from what I've heard it's more emotional closure. I'm OK with that.

Most people raging are just readers let down by the spoilers, and will probably love the episode itself.
Most of the people who actually read the episode and criticize it cite its poor delivery, lack of anything meaningful in the last few episodes that couldn't have been said in a more concise way, and the fucking annoying author preaching in-game.

>>6791010
What's the point of howdunnit when you can make up 10+ valid theories for any closed room in umineko? It's not fun to never get to know which of them was valid.

the people who rage are all goats.

>>6791034
OK name multiple valid theories that fit with everything else for say... the second twilight of the first game.

Plus its not like the story wasn't awesome

>>6791042
Quite possibly the most entertaining debates on facts since Phoenix Wright.

>>6791034
>What's the point of howdunnit when you can make up 10+ valid theories for any closed room in umineko?

I think that's fun.

>>6791007
>>6791010
Except ot does not make sense.
The point of a story is not to stay 'true' to the thems, it is to also be entertaining.
Umineko ended up largely convoluted, iwth much irrelevant content, 200 pages filtered into one semi-valid statement, with a conclusion that offers no satisfaction and makes everything you have read less important. Just saying 'he covered his ass with 8 mbs worth of text written before' is not enough.
It's not just the ending by itself that makes someone angry, it's the perspective it gives for the rest of the story.
If you cannot accept how people can have serious issues with how the story turned out...

>>6791045
The most retarded most likely.
Pseudo-philosophy on wrong basis, no valid perspective and they end up being much less relevant in the story than touted about.

>>6791052
>Except ot does not make sense.

Unless Episode 8 throws some insane curveballs at me, it's pretty much made sense to me.

>>6791045
Umineko took something boring (debating) and added laser sword fights, gun fights, powerlevels, trolling, etc and then made it PAAFECTO. I haven't enjoyed people arguing about shit since, well since phoenix wright.

>>6791061
So it made debating perfect by not being actual debating anymore, unlike Phoenix Wright?
Fascinating. What matters in such things is the actual fucking text and facts, not the lasershow

OP, I hear ya, but until most of /jp/ actually reads EP8 they're not going to stop being butthurt from spoilers.

Well, they probably still will be after reading it because that's just what they do.

Oh well.

>>6791068
You sound like you'd be a very boring person in real life.

When you get down to it, Umineko is made to be entertaining. And for me it was. Participating in /jp/'s shitfits over Shkanon and what not was half the fun. If you ever got honestly mad at the series, you take things too seriously.

I say this for a lot of things, but people really need to chill the fuck out.

You fuckers didn't deduce shit.
I remember that you guys all called me a retard and a troll everytime I mentioned ShKanontrice or the fiction theory.
ZOMG YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND ANYTHING ABOUT UMINEKO, YOU DON'T HAVE ENOUGH LOVE.
Those were your standard answers.

>>6791084
...Wtf?
Disliking shitty story and dialogue means I am a boring person?
Not enjoying circlejerking and people throwing shitfits over the clusterfuck means I cannot have fun?
Are you fucking retarded?
I am not mad at the story. Just saying that most of my reading ended up being a waste of time, because it was barely mediocre.
I am criticizing what I read.
God forbid people have negative opinions.
You Umineko fans are really delusional.

>>6791052
>Umineko ended up largely convoluted
Not a bad thing, increases the replay value.
>iwth much irrelevant content
Like what?
>200 pages filtered into one semi-valid statement
What...

>with a conclusion that offers no satisfaction and makes everything you have read less important.
That's a matter of opinion and perspective. I saw all the magic bits as a metaphor, I saw the magic characters as more fantastical renditions of their real world parts.

I get why people would be pissed off at the ending, but that's a matter of the frame of mind and expectations and that's why in the OP I tried to argue that Ryukishi told us what to expect and how to read the story.

About the irrelevant parts, which parts exactly. I agree with you that there were irrelevant parts but what I'm not sure we agree on is what parts those were.

That's why I fucking hate Umineko fags.
Listening to your shit it seems like you think Umineko is the only entertaining VN ever.

I would have been ok with "Amnesia" if Battler was Meta-Battler (our Battler) that returned human without memories and try to spent all his life writing story about his life as human and meta.
Of course no one would believe in meta and dismiss that as shit.

>>6791086
You mad, bro?

>>6791102
>I haven't read EP8

How about you read it before saying stupid shit like that.

>>6791105

Yeah, because he's wrong

>>6791092
>Umineko ended up largely convoluted
>Not a bad thing, increases the replay value.

Really now. It's not like I hate the story, but the one thing Umineko cannot offer is ANY enjoyment at all when you reread the story. Because you realize how much of the text is fucking pointless, how many interactions are fake or offer almost nothing, and how many meta world exposition and explanations contribute nothing in the end.

>>6791101
The door is big enough for you now leave.........

People are just mad that for all their hard work, for 7 games, we either get amnesia battler, or suicide ange.

For some reason though, people think that this was the mystery, and forget that absolutely nothing on the core mystery(aka the catbox that is rokkenjima) was not solved, maybe some people have, but most of /jp/ and what i gather, 2ch seem to be throwing a fit over amnesia battler when all it is, is the end of the story.

>>6791092
An author should offer you the story with his message, and what you get from it is up to you.
Trying to CONDITION you as to what matters and what the story is about? That is shit. You cannot include and focus on elements and excuse sloppy execution by saying ' this is not what the story is about in the end'.

>>6791112

The only fun episode to re-read is ep 1 because you see screen like this where Eva figured all of seakitties in the first 5 hours.

Other than that, meh. I can't re-read ep V Tea Party because Beatrice's Heart are a bunch of bullshit and it makes me cringe.

>>6791112
>how much of the text is fucking pointless
If you reread 1-4, it's amazing how much of the text points to the answers.

>how many interactions are fake or offer almost nothing
They point towards the answers. How is this offering nothing?

>how many meta world exposition and explanations contribute nothing in the end
So...I'm guessing you haven't read EP8.

>>6791039
Not going to re-read that part and red text so will go just by memory. Weed out everything that doesn't fit. I remember "no body double trick exists" red.
If we also believe in Will's "locked chain lock was an illusion":
1-7: Yasu or any possible accomplice (George, Natsuhi, Genji, Kumasawa, Jessica, Nanjo) killed them, Genji let them out, everyone lied about the lock. "Kyrie and Rudolph are the culprits" ceases to exist with that body doubles red text by the way. With Ange being unable to accept the truth and killing herself after reading Eva's diary I first supposed it wasn't Yasu but Battler instead. But hey (alright, re-checked some of the red):
# Battler-kun didn't kill anyone.
# This can be said of all games.

7-13: same as above but lock was actually set and killer just slipped out of the closet later and joined the crowd.

Bern spamming red in the end of EP8 about Battler being already dead (while he's alive and well in a wheelchair) doesn't help either.

Yes, R07's writing makes me frustruated. Oh, Ange couldn't bear the truth and suicided. But hey it's nothing to be upset about if it Battler and her parents aren't the culprits. Oh wait, you can actually spout bullshit with red. Oh wait, it wasn't bullshit but only author thinks that killed = lost memory. What else are we supposed to figure out?

>>6791117
Or perhaps because regardless of work, story gets an unsatisfying conclusion that ruins the perspective of the whole work.
It's not like EP 8 is a 'small' part, it's 1/8 of the whole damn thing

>>6791068
>So it made debating perfect by not being actual debating anymore

What are you getting at? It was actual debating that highlighted the importance of interpretation of facts. It showed that two people may have the same facts but the application of reasoning may have them reach widely different conclusions, both of which are legitimate as long as they follow the rules of reasoning. The "laser" show had an added bit of awesome by showing a creative rendition of a mundane activity. It was less of the pew pew laser and more of the charisma of the people debating. Erika vs Battler was awesome because both people actually had their facts right, but both had different conclusions, both correct but neither willing to back the fuck down.

>people still thinking that Umineko is RUINED FOREVER because of the EP8 end

Read it. When you do, then you're allowed to complain.

As it is, you guys are throwing hissy fits over nothing.

>>6791124
Of course SOME of the text 'points to' the answer.
Actually, it points to many fucking answers easily.
Umineko is 8 puzzleboxes thrown together, you know not which one is the correct one even if you assemble it, and you piece it together by filtering from unreliable perspective or retarded metaphors that change the tone of the story whenever they appear.
Umineko could easily be half the size it is, offer the same experience and be much less tedious

>>6791132
Some people have.
Assuming they have not is silly./

Anyone who think Umineko doesn't have any filler text is utterly deluded.
Umineko was far too long for what it was, R07 should seriously stop his let's drag the story for 8 games shit and get a fucking editor.

>>6791130
Except they did not. And the importance of the events they argue becomes so downplayed, actual awesomeness matters little.

>>6791112
The puzzles being convoluted makes the reread value higher. I want to know how those murders were carried out and if it was a simple enough to get on the first try it wouldn't be worth a second glance. And yes most of the text was redundant and pointless but Ryukishi gave us Red and Gold texts that cuts out 90% of the garbage. To figure out the closed rooms you could just read the gold and red texts, read the context of those texts and formulate a theory.

>>6791130
>both people actually had their facts right, but both had different conclusions, both correct but neither willing to back the fuck down

Hey, yeah, just like the White Knights vs. the Defamation League.

I'm not sure if that's still going on. People realize the fake murder theory is correct, right?

>>6791123

Dohoho

>>6791091
>BAWWWWW PEOPLE LIKE THINGS I DONT LIKE.

>>6791147

Yasu was going to kill everyone, give up

>>6791145
That is exactly why the reread value is GONE. we do not talk about rereading each episode till the next one comes out because the author cannot properly present the story and just writes tons of bullshit and gives you a vague filter to work it out. When you have finishged the story(episode 8), know what happened and what matters, can you really go through Umineko and enjoy it?

A good story can be read again and again. A good amount of Umineko, once you know what it is about becoems worthless.
Much of the characterization is fake or vague. Many of the events/arguments are filler. There are more 'metaphors' for characters and events than actual characters and events getting focus.

That is just the content, not even the quality of writing it.

>>6791147
Anyone who think the fake murder theory is true is terminally retarded.
Probably the same fags who argued against ShKanontrice and fiction back then, you fags are so stupid it's funny;

>>6791153
I do not have a problem with people liking things.
People who do not accept any critiscim and retort with 'You just cannot have fun'? Now, we enter faggot territory.
Always, in Umineko threads, faggots go 'You do not get the point, you lack love, you are clearly not as smart yadda yadda'. It's ridiculous.

>>6791151
You know, after rereading 1 and 2, it's not that much of a stretch that Featherine found out the truth just from them.

I mean, holy shit, EVERY single thing is there, even if it's just the characters speculating on something.

>>6791141
>Except they did not
Except they did not what Have hardcore angry lover's hate sex? What?

>And the importance of the events they argue becomes so downplayed, actual awesomeness matters little.

The events were completely worthless and shouldn't be noted, what WAS worthwhile is what we got with that, what we got from that was that Battler was no longer a reliable narrator of events.

Remember how Shkanontrice theory was based the fact that battler didn't see them in one place at the same time? That was floating about ep1-4 but when ep5 came and the epic battle with Battler become a mage proved that perspective was what mattered and lent credence to what we already knew. The trick in reading umineko is picking out fact from fiction and if it wasn't for the showdown and Battler admitting he is not going to be a credible source anymore we got a major hint at how to solve the story.

>>6791161
>A good story can be read again and again. A good amount of Umineko, once you know what it is about becoems worthless.

I disagree. Once you know the truth, it's a lot of fun to go back and read it again with this new context.

>>6791164
I think the opposite.

People who deny fake murders are either trolls or in deep denial. I guess they just don't want to have Umineko make sense?

>>6791165
And you retort with people explain why they like things by calling them delusional.

>>6791171
Umineko makes complete sense without your fake murder faggotry.
It goes completely against both the characterization of Yasu, her motive and the core of the game itself.

But it's not like you could understand that, seriously grow a brain or something.

>>6791167
And that exactly is what makes the story tedious and tons of text useless.
>>6791168
Is it? Most of the shit is pointless procrastinating, It's like you know the correct path in the jungle, but you have to cut all the plantlife and weeds again and again.

>>6791166
>You know, after rereading 1 and 2, it's not that much of a stretch that Featherine found out the truth just from them.

Featherine had it easy, with Batora and everything

>>6791172
I call them delusional for thinking people cannot have negative opinions about the VN while reading it and investing time like anyone else, nothing more.
Do not be a retard

>>6791186
Here's the thing, you say that it has "shitty story and dialogue" when, as someone who likes it, would disagree with that.

I can accept that people don't like things I like. However, it seems that you can't accept that people like things you don't like.

>>6791179
>goes completely against both the characterization of Yasu

I bet you're talking about 1 and 2? Which she wrote with herself as the culprit in mind? Even though she wasn't, she was just trying to hide the truth? And you're saying that's reliable characterization.

Trolololo

>>6791191
As I said before, I can.
No accounting for taste.
When you say shit like ;You just did not 'get' the story', I will call you on your retarded statements.
It's not like that person told me why he finds the VN good, just that my negative opinion is a result of me being a person who cannot have fun.
What the hell?

>>6791197
Episode 1 and 2 were written for her plan as she herself stated.
Or you think she could have written 2 long tales that together are as long as the count of Monte Cristo in one night?
She just wrote a note afterward before dying to ask people to find the truth and threw these stories in the sea.

Meta-Beatrice isn't Yasu if you are talking about her.

>>6791171

I was a Yasu WhiteKnight before ep VIII.

Back then, i was full of hope for R07

It was crushed, and i realized there was no hope for Umineko. What makes sense for us doesn't necessarily make sense for R07.

Yasu is batshine insane and she can turn her imaginary friends and love on and off. Deal with it.

She's whiteknight by Will and Battler because she didn't technically kill anyone, so this makes her innocent and a pretty sad individual.

btw, Clair doesn't even exist in Uminekoverse, so who gives a fuck?

Chaptcha: love, trolize

>>6791201
>can't have fun

Well this IS /jp/ lolololo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JEvUbyO1lIw

THIS IS THE CANON ENDING OF UMINEKO

ANYONE WHO SAYS OTHERWISE WILL BE DROWNED IN A SEA OF PUDDING

I only finally got around to the novels themselves fairly recently and am somewhere in episode 4, but based on what I've seen thus far and the spoilers, I think it's a case of the story being utter tripe, but the character interaction and atmosphere being awesome enough to sort of make up for that.

>>6791218
It's just /jp/ being butthurt.

Umineko is fine. Not great, but not bad either.

>>6791222
>It's just /jp/ being butthurt.

This really is the answer to so many questions.

Here's my problem with Yasu. All games can be easily solved with Yasu = culprit, servants plus Nanjo minus Gohda plus random bribed people are accomplices. But why was the EP8 scene with Ange being unable to accept the truth so strong? "Accept it. No. It's the truth. No. *suicide*". Ange wouldn't give two shits about Shkannontrice being the culprit. But Ignoring this scene would be going "against the heart of the story", right? And her family can't be the culprits in some episodes unless we overrule some of the red text. Stalemate?

>>6791230
Yasu is the culprit in the fictional stories of episodes 1-6. What actually happened on the island was not explained.

>>6791230
And Battler can't be a criminal without breaking the basic rules of the game, but that doesn't make him not one.

WELCOME TO UMINEKO SON, WELCOME TO HELL.

>>6791209
>>6791222
>>6791228

You should consider moving your Umineko appreciation to a forum that understands Ryu-sama's genius.

>>6791230

Yasu wasn't the culprit, in the sense of murderer.

Fake murder mystery for Battler.

Made real massacre by greedy parents.

Furthermore, only one Rokkenjima ever occurred. It was Rudolf and Kyrie, and Ange couldn't handle that.

>>6791241
>Fake murder mystery for Battler.
You'll never stop pushing your shit, right?
Go to animesuki where you can circlejerk between retards, fuck.

>>6791230
Infinite realties can exist inside Rokkenjima catbox

Yasu is the culprit of ep 1-7, were the adults don't find the gold.
Kyrie is Rokkenjima prima culprit, assuming Bern's game can be take literally

THE MORE INFORMATION WE GET, THE LESS SENSE EVERYTHING MAKES. WHY DO YOU DO THIS TO US RYUKISHI?

>>6791230
Red text doesn't matter to what happened, it only matters to the fictional "games". We don't know what happened, but a popular theory in the Japanese community is that Battler is the true culprit.

>>6791244

It's still by very estranged logic a mystery. Therefore, we can reach and proclaim our own interpretations.

>>6791261
>Red text doesn't matter
BUT THAT MAKES THE ENTIRE FUCKING SERIES INVALID

>>6791125
>With Ange being unable to accept the truth and killing herself after reading Eva's diary

I'm tired of these shitty fake spoilers.
Ange indeed died after reading the diary, but only because it was part of the contract she had with Bernkastel in Ep8. She didn't kill herself after learning it. She was resolute to die in order to obtain the truth no matter it was.

Bern offered her the opportunity to get the truth (giving her the means to snatch the book from Battler) in exchange for her life (meta).

It is only after drifting towards the Golden Land that Ange comes back and agrees to seal the cat box.
But it seriously isn't because she learned the truth that she died. It is because she was ready to die that she could learn the truth.

>>6791267

WELCOME TO UMINEKO

>>6791258

That's the problem with the lack of a real answer.
He said he wanted to reward those who believed have find the truth.
That's nice. Now, i think i found the truth, but how do i now it's the TRUTH?
I can't.

If he really wanted people to feel satisfied he should have revealed everything.

That, and remove the stupid "meta doesn't exist" bullshit.

>>6791273
But FFS, the meta was NOT denied by the ending.

>>6791267
No it doesn't, but you're free to think so. The series was never really about what "truly" happened, the entire story was more about Beatrice than anything else. Ange finding out the truth had always been a side-story.

We've known that the metaworld wasn't real and the episodes were just novels for a while now, I don't understand why everybody throws a fit about it now. Are you guys really just that slow at piecing it together?

>>6791268

So she finds the truth and then she hides it?

Fucking bitch.
What is this, some kind of "i know the truth i won't tell" supersecret club?

I haven't read 8, but I've seen the spoilers.

I honestly think with the all the meta-trolling going on that the "final" answer of it all being a "dream" is just another meta-troll.

Think about how much Ryukishi talked about different kakeras, different solutions, different ways to write the story.

He didn't want there to be 'one' answer, the point of Umineko was telling us that their are an infinite number of possibilities, and our perspective creates the truth.

In that way Battler "dreaming" it all up is the same as saying ryu dreamed it up which is the same as saying we all dreamed it up. Even though its our imagination, it takes on a life of its own as a true reality and by changing our own perspective we choose the reality we want to see.

tl;dr ITS SO DEEP MAN

>>6791287
>We've known that the metaworld wasn't real and the episodes were just novels for a while now, I don't understand why everybody throws a fit about it now. Are you guys really just that slow at piecing it together?

It was more amguous really.

"Is Featherine R07, or R07 is Featherine?" rather than "Fucking fanficton"

>>6791297

saying the metaworld of Umineko isn't real is like saying the "real" world of Umineko isn't real either.

All of Umineko is, in a sense, a "metaworld" to us in the "real" world.

>>6791297
The thing that bothered me about the metaworld was Bern and Lambda. If they weren't real, why reference Higurashi, or make claims that Higurashi never took place? Why develop them so much, and hint at an important backstory, if they weren't really relevant?

I guess the biggest thing that disappointed me was the removal of the atmosphere from Episode 1. I expected some akin to a mystery novel, something like "And then there were None", and I didn't even get a mystery.

>>6791313
Actually, they were as relevant as "readers".
And no, theya ren't denied. Even Bern says "farewell everyone. Let's meet in another "no naku koro ni"."

>>6791318
Well that just confuses me. It's stated that Battler got the idea of them from reading the Higurashi novel, and real world objects, so does Bern truly exist?
I find it sort of sad if 07 simply denied her 100 years of suffering to end another story.

Hoshi no Naku Koro ni

it plays in 2020 and is about people who are in a spaceship, lost in the universe. it's about god and again fictive characters

>>6791337
The fact Higurashi was a novel in Umineko kakeras doesn't mean Higurashi events didn't happen.

Actually, there are even more hints about Bern's backstory in Episode 8 IIRC.
To begin with, Umineko was seen as pure fiction for Bern, but that doesn't deny that umineko characters "existed".

>>6791261

I'd like to hear more about this popular theory, please.

>>6791230
>And her family can't be the culprits in some episodes unless we overrule some of the red text. Stalemate?

You can weasel your way out of the red truth. Its true but it is misleading or worded incorrectly. Red Truth is red, you know what else is red and true? A red herring.

Wait, EP8 is the last part of Umineko? Fuck, I still need to get past the beggining of EP2. Fucking happy couples, ruining all the fun.

>>6791365

Those scene are like the key of the mystery

>>6791345
Adding to this:
http://www.wordiq.com/definition/Pantheistic_solipsism

>Pantheistic solipsism

>Pantheistic solipsism is a technical term (properly "Pantheistic multiple-ego solipsism") that has been advanced for the World as Myth idea proposed by science fiction writer Robert A. Heinlein in several of his books and stories, although the concept has little in common with either pantheism (the universe is God) or solipsism (nothing exists but my mind). Heinlein coined the phrase for the last chapter of The Number of the Beast as part of the name of a convention attended by numerous characters from different fictional universes.

>The World as Myth involves the idea that a powerful author, such as Edgar Rice Burroughs, Isaac Asimov, or Heinlein himself, creates a parallel universe simply by writing about it. It incorporates the portrayal of all myths and fictional universes existing as parallel universes to our own and that persons and beings from these various “worlds” interact with one another.

>>6791306
Involving the READERS is not something to be done casually.
Even if it is a fictional one, the setting in the story should stand as it is.
When you add meta to the meta to the meta, it just makes everything pointless. Theer should be a distinction between 'real' and 'metaworld', for one to serve as point of reference and different perspective. If everything is just a parallel universe, then you just bring about far too many characters and non matching settings for no good reason.

>>6791343

If it involves Krauss I'm going for it.

People weren't mad when Rika ended up with different K1 and Rena everything

>>6791480
Higurashi jumped to different universes from the start, with two constants.
Different way the setting worked.
Even with unreliable perspective, EVERYTHING did happen.

>>6791487
>From the start

Not really, from like ep VII

You didn't know it was about parallel world.

>>6791496
The point is, when you have it confirmed(plenty of reasons to suspect), the events and characterizations(good or bad) stand.

>>6791480

There is a small difference between "K1 dies, it was, everyone was sad. But that's the cruel fate Rika's trying to fight. Let's hope it will be better for the next one" and "fuck, they never existed to beginning with"

>>6791502
This is why Minagoroshi is so soul-crushing.

So much "fuck you" to the face of fate and guess what it leads to.
I am curious though, will I ever get an end where Keiichi actually killed Takano with his shovel instead of letting her see his bike? Doesn't this, like, mean an instant win for Rika?