/jp/ - Otaku Culture

Because she wasn't narrating it?

Right because Erika has eyes on the back of her head.

We have been through this time and time again... Should we move to "kannon 0" and "erika doesn't exist" as well?

>>6710101

Did Battler ever appear on the gameboard in a fantasy scene?

If Erika is the detective she shouldn't even appear in a fantasy scene. If you were reading a book and a character that didn't exist appeared in a scene with the detective, it'd be a bum move.

>>6710203
I will state it again, eyes are positioned only in the front of ones head. She wouldn't know if it was Shanon or Rape-O, the clown, standing behind her.

>>6710203
End of Episode 2.

Erika is another character of Yasu.

Explains the final closed room of EP6

>>6710258
I wouldn't put it past Kin...er...R07.

>>6710244

That was a Tea Party and blatantly part of the meta verse.

>>6710227

Yes, because everyone stayed perfectly still during that scene. Or Shannon spent the whole time hiding behind Erika in whatever it was Battler saw.

When you try to imagine it actually happening, it sounds retarded. If she was there, she was there.

>>6710281
That's the point: Erika wasn't there so she didn't see anything.

>>6710295

So, we can just disregard Eps 5 and 6 then?

Also when did it say Erika wasn't there? Her existence was denied after the 5th and 6th games had already effectively ended. And Will talks about her in Ep.7 as a detective.

>>6710258
Also explains who in the island would be savvy enough to play a detective role: Yasu.

She would just be written into the story by whoever wrote EP5, according to Author Theory.

You guys really are retarded.
Erika was just a character added through a loophole, she really was "here" in episode 5-6, her presence was very well delimited.
You can't add another personality to Yasu or something, it would completely go against the fairness of Umineko aka don't change the settings of the characters.
Think meta

>>6710258
I would've rather seen Erika's head explode rather than her being shot if that was the case.

>>6710317
>the fairness of Umineko

>People still don't how Erika can exist.

Given the amount of times this type of thread has been made, I'm going to assume you're trolling by now.

>>6710317
You don't know what "aka" means, stop using it.

>mfw people still fall for this trick

>I included this trick that was originally planned in "Land of the Golden Witch" in "End." Well... you could say it's a very "dirty" trick. To those that are beyond the intelligence of the average reader, it will be particularly venomous. The readers who had already grasped most of the story were able to see through it.
-R07

Hey guys. Why does everyone ignore that Erika saw Kinzo alive? The detective can't appear in a fantasy scene. The whole point of this scene was to establish that Kinzo is alive, and he's glad Battler was the one to solve the epitaph. Given the red text is fake, I would say Kinzo being "dead" is more likely to be misdirection.

Oh God, I know it's impossible, but I'd cum buckets if Kinzo really proves to be alive- that would make Eva such a huge asshole she'd swallow the whole Rokkenjima.
I believed you from the start, Nappi.

We do not know what Erika sees in that scene. We see what Battler sees.

There's a big argument in the ???? about people who aren't the detective mistaking things by sight, too.

>The detective can't appear in a fantasy scene.

What is the line between a fantasy scene and a non-fantasy scene? Erika initiates a "fantasy scene" herself during the argument over how Kinzo escaped, when she summons the Eiserne Jungfrau to barricade the exits of the room. But it's made obvious in that scene that it never really happened that way.

But what if R07 did a scene where he didn't make it blatantly obvious that the truth of the scene wasn't being shown?

> If you were reading a book and a character that didn't exist appeared in a scene with the detective, it'd be a bum move.

Have you not picked up on the fact that Umineko has been deliberately been written to confuse this shit out of the reader? I mean it's pretty obvious in the first 4 episodes, what makes you think R07 is just going to suddenly stop in the 5th?

>>6710101
This is the key.

Remember the scene where Battler saw Kinzo? I believe >>6710364 is referencing it. In the end, we find out that Battler can't have even been mistaken, his narration was an outright lie. Battler could have also said "And then Erika waved at Kinzo and said that he is definitely alive and we all had a tea party with magical fairies and witches."

This scene is the same, except instead of being narrated by the gameboard Battler, it was meta-battler. You can tell this because the narration calls the gameboard battler "me", quotation marks included. As in, the narrator acknowledges that the piece is him, but not him.

In this scene, the narrator could have said whatever the fuck he wanted. Or rather, he could have been shown anything the fuck Bern and Lambda wanted, and narrated it. He was only observing the process of their gameboard, one that was completely littered with fantasy scenes.

This tricks the more retarded person, because they only tell the difference between a scene that's unreliable and reliable by how "obviously" fantasy/meta it is. In a scene like this, where it doesn't seem obviously fantasy/meta but is still fabricated to some degree, they are lost.

>>6710281
Are you fucking retarded? It was neither tea party nor meta. He's talking about the scene where Genji summons Battler to see Kinzo and Beatrice. Kinzo is dead and even if 'Beatrice' exists (Yasu dressed up) Battler narrates a fuckton of magical shit he's seeing. He's the detective in 1-4, and he was present for a magical scene. Bang.

>>6710404
>We do not know what Erika sees in that scene. We see what Battler sees.

But in that case Battler is being the "detective" for that part, and it was said in red that as long as he is the detective he cannot be mistaken.

Erika shouldn't even appear in a fantasy scene outside of meta/tea parties if she's the detective, it never happened with Battler.

Either it's a dirty trick or Shkannon is a red herring.

>>6710364
"Land of the Golden Witch"? What is this?

>>6710426

I don't remember that scene, but if that's true doesn't that conflict with the red text later on that Battler, as detective, cannot be mistaken in what he sees? It comes up as a central point later on.

So Beatrice found a way to create a really good illusion?

>>6710438
Episode 3 was originally planned to be harder and called Land of the Golden Witch. It was scrapped because Ryuukishi noticed people hadn't grasped as much as he thought they would have. They were still thinking magic could exist, and stuff like that.

>>6710441
>but if that's true doesn't that conflict with the red text later on that Battler, as detective, cannot be mistaken in what he sees?
Untrue. The detective can be mistaken. They just can't lie about their perspective.

Also, that scene switches to a third-person narrator. The only thing Battler actually says is that he vaguely thinks he sees a shadow of a person in the study or something like that, and he was junk. Not very worthwhile.

>>6710404
Not to mention in EP6 when she initiates that Meta fight with Maria, or the fact that Erika and Meta-Erika are seemingly one in the same (as opposed to Meta-Battler being distinct from his Piece; Meta-Erika clearly has knowledge and memories of Meta shit). Face it, Erika can and does appear in fantasy scenes despite being the detective, deal with it.

>>6710441
>but if that's true doesn't that conflict with the red text later on that Battler, as detective, cannot be mistaken in what he sees?
Untrue. The detective can be mistaken. They just can't lie about their perspective.

Also, that scene switches to a third-person narrator. The only thing Battler actually says is that he vaguely thinks he sees a shadow of a person in the study or something like that, and he was drunk. Not very worthwhile.

>>6710445
One of the big problems I have with Umineko is how Ryukishi jumps from first- to third-person without so much as a warning or much of an indication as to who's narrating. You can infer it within a few lines usually, but it's still annoying.

>>6710438

An extra in ep.. 3 i think? A large chunk of the story, cut out that has been named seperately.

>>6710404
>What is the line between a fantasy scene and a non-fantasy scene? Erika initiates a "fantasy scene" herself during the argument over how Kinzo escaped, when she summons the Eiserne Jungfrau to barricade the exits of the room. But it's made obvious in that scene that it never really happened that way.

That was essentially a Meta scene though, or at least the other characters didn't recognise it as happening and there was no trace of it afterwards. It'd be a lot harder to fob off Shannon and Kanon's appearance that way.

Remember there's a sort of in between stage between gameboard and the meta that's in the Smoking Room. Piece Beato in Episode 5 occupies that space. Since her higher self is out of action, she doesn't have top level knowledge of the game but is still a "meta" character.

Umineko lesson 1:
A detective is worthless unless they are the narrator. A detective who is the narrator creates red truth with every line he narrates, with the condition that each line is what he personally believes.

Erika who was never the narrator (except in some parts right at the end of episode 6 in the end fantasy scene), only gets selected reds made about her detective actions by Bern, and they mostly went to waste.

>>6710446

Those are obviously meta scenes though. They're not happening on the physical level of the gameboard where all the mystery side characters are. It's no different from "Piece" Beato in Episode 5, who is still a meta character despite not being in the smoking room.

That's true of all the "fantasy" scenes she appears in. Otherwise she'd just have to give up and admit magic did it.

>>6710429
No, just because someone in Umineko narrates something doesn't mean they're the detective.

>>6710475
>Those are obviously meta scenes though
>obviously
Like I said.

>A detective is worthless unless they are the narrator
That kinda suggests that Battler ISN'T worthless.

>>6710426
By that point in the story, Battler had already resigned to Beatrice and accepted that magic existed. He wasn't playing the game anymore and therefore swallowed up all of the magical bullshit Beato had to throw at him. We can't take any of that narration seriously.

>>6710442
I see, didn't know that. Thank you.

But Damn, between things like this and the self-insert of Featherine/Hachijo/whatever, Ryukishi is seriously being a stuck-up ass about us not being good enough to solve his mystery. He let Higurashi's success go to his head.

It's so bullshit though and makes you wonder if you can trust anything in Episode 7 where there is little in the way of first person detective and little in the way of red text.

Why do people trust Episode 7 and not this? Episode 7 was a Bern game who is much worse than Lambda.

I wish there was a point at which the absolute rules for what we can and can't trust were laid out. If you don't know the rules to the game how are you supposed to play it? Of course you still have to go through the "fake" scenes to get an idea of what might really be going on behind the scenes, which also needs to be said so people don't just skip them.

>>6710480
He's more useful than Erika. You can infer a lot from what Battler doesn't see. You can also tell who is where when murders happen.

>>6710456
Is there any more info on this missing stuff available somewhere?

>>6710489
>Episode 7 was a Bern game
ohboyherewego.psd

>>6710484
>Ryukishi is seriously being a stuck-up ass about us not being good enough to solve his mystery.

And then the answer is something retarded like Shkannontrice, b0mb and Battler's sociopath parents.

I love Umineko for it's overall setting, story and characters but this is pretty fucking dumb.

>>6710484

Why do you people keep going on about this? Featherine says it, and then Ange immediately berates her for it and tells her that she has more faith in the readers than she does.

Ange is portrayed as right.

Why do you people think Featherine is Ryuukishi's avatar when she is said to be WRONG?

>>6710489
THIS!!! I'll be laughing my ass off tomorrow when ep8 finally disproves all this shit. Two episodes of misdirection and you all think you know the story. Where is the red text that says Kanon, Shannon etc are all the same? That's right, nowhere. Over two episodes "dedicated" to the theory there's not a scrap of truth. R07 is just laughing at you because you swallow up this shit...

>>6710489
>Episode 7 was a Bern game
Nope.avi

Plus, Will was the detective and he was using his detective's authority when it came to asking questions--so for example, when he was asking Jessica about shit, Jessica didn't lie to him or anything, and actually admitted to faking her asthma.

I'd say around 70% of the main mystery was solved with EP7 because of explaining Yasu's back story, anyways.

The tea party is an entirely different matter when it comes to if it was the whole truth or not, but I won't get into that.

>>6710489

EP7 was not "Bern's game". Bern was simply reading the episode out to AuAu.

>>6710527
>Jessica didn't lie to him or anything,
Then why did Kinzo lie?

>>6710489
No offense, man, but if you really feel that way, Umineko is clearly not the story for you.

>>6710509
Shkanontrice isn't real (sorry, Yasu doesn't have multiple personalities no matter how you slice it, though /jp/ begs to differ) and Battler's parents being crazy might or might not have been true, there's no way to tell just from the tea party.

The bomb I'll admit is a bit silly.

>>6710520

Two episodes of misdirection would be as lame as Shkannontrice though. I'm hoping again Ep.8 goes all Phoenix Wright, and the truth is to be found somewhere in the lies.

It would be cool if there was some cryptic message in Episode 6 and 7 that will be obvious when we see it.

>>6710527
>Plus, Will was the detective
No. He was no such thing, he had observer authority, which is supposed to be better.
>and he was using his detective's authority when it came to asking questions
Observer authority. Don't confuse the two when Bern explicitly said it wasn't detective authority, because that shit is weak.

Also, while characters have to tell him everything they know, that doesn't stop characters who actually believe falsities. They are telling the truth of what they think, not any objective truth.

>>6710426
You're wrong. Battler doesn't narrate that scene. The last line of narration that Battler gives is the one where he sees the back of the head of a woman in Kinzo's room. By the time Kinzo has started talking, the narration has switched to third person, and thus the scene is no longer Narrated By The Detective. And thus, is invalid.

It's subtle, and most people miss it.

>>6710536

I hate Shkannontrice but find it impossible to see how it isn't true after Ep.7.

I've come up with a theory that still works, but it's not as supported as anything involving Shkannontrice so I think it's probably not possible.

I'd be very interested in hearing your alternate answer.

Of course, I won't accept anything that disregards Episode 6 and 7 completely. You have to use them somehow to help reach the truth(though of course, it should be possible to solve it with the first 4, it should still be consistent with some of what was presented in the Breakdown arcs).

>>6710489

It can be trusted because of a few reasons.

Why would bern lie? She wants to drag out the messy messy messy innards of beatos story, display the heart and crush it. She tried overlaying her own Fake truth in the last 2 games and it resulted in her absolute loss so why lie again? Bern isn't stupid.

>>6710520
What? EP6 and 7 don't support the Shkanontrice theory the fans came up with at all. At the time it was all that made sense, but it's really not the case.

>>6710544

Where does it specifically say we can trust the Detective's narration?

>>6710536
>Shkanontrice isn't real (sorry, Yasu doesn't have multiple personalities no matter how you slice it, though /jp/ begs to differ)
>/jp/ begs to differ)
Maybe a couple of retards do. And Shkanontrice is real, just not the previously (ie pre-episode 7) DID formulation of it.

>>6710532
Kinzo didn't lie. The snippet provided by Claire's entrails fits perfectly with what we've seen. It just provides us with how the Japanese came to decide their suprise attack.

>>6710547

But if Bern got it wrong, then her presentation of the facts would be wrong. Bern might have a lot of it figured, but it doesn't mean she has it all figured. It was "her answer" she presented to Auau.

Next episode we'll be seeing Battler's answer, if we choose to. Or Bern's Massacre.

>>6710551
We can assume that if the detective narrates that he saw something, it's true. The detective can be lied to though. See: Door chain in EP1.

>>6710532
He didn't. Theatergoing Authority seems to just let the 'theatergoer', if you will, see the true heart and thoughts of the person in question. After all, if the whole truth came out as a result of that ability, Featherine wouldn't need to confirm her theories and whatnot. If Kinzo genuinely believed that's what happened, then that's what Will saw. Theatergoing ability does not equate to absolute truth, but the truth in the eyes of the beholder. Chiru as a whole seems to have 'truth' as the main theme, and EP5 and 6 went out of their way to point out that 'a truth' and 'the truth' are different things that can exist simultaneously. Kinzo's truth is Kinzo's truth and nothing can destroy that. It's not that he lied so much as the ugly truth behind his story just wasn't visible because we were seeing it through his heart.

>>6710552
Well, when I say Shkanontrice I do mean the theory where Yasu/Shannon has DID.

It's kind of like the pony theory where the core of it was true, in that Battler made a promise to "Beatrice" that he forgot and that was his sin. With Shkanontrice, Shannon Beatrice and Kanon are technically the same person (though Kanon is still iffy--I'm inclined to think he was a real person at one point or another, and shit got weird in the games) but not because of multiple personalities.

>>6710536
I didn't mind bomb theory when it was just a theory. What bugs me is the way in which 7 tried to explain it. Rokkenjima was all but forgotten, why were SO MANY explosives stored there? When did Yasu possibly have the time to sneak away from servant duties to blow up the shrine? HOW did she know how to safely detonate the explosives to begin with? I know Kinzo set up the clock device, all she had to do was know about it and flip a switch, but she had to know considerably more in order to test that the explosives still worked. It's not the idea that a bomb did it that I don't like, because if you look back there was plenty of foreshadowing since EP1. It's the way it was 'explained' that is just silly.

>>6710544

Rather than 1st to 3rd person, the important thing is the name. It was always the biggest clue in the early episodes:

Everyon on the island calls Kinzo "The Master", "Grandfather" or "Father". Noone calls him "Kinzo" except in fantasy scenes (except possibly Nanjo? I can't remember, but it doesn't matter).


Anyway, all of this arguing about perspective is pointless. Scenes from Battler's viewpoint are meaningless, since he isn't the detective. Erika's view is reliable because she is the detective, but in the text she can still LIE about what she saw.

>>6710601
Yasu gets time off sometimes, right? And there are these AMAZING THINGS called libraries. And explosives aren't that complicated anyway once you learn the gist of it. Finally, as it was a military installation, believe it or not, but the military does tend to produce manuals for instructing use of equipment and munitions.

>>6710600
People who say "Shkanontrice was wrong" seem to be the same people who argued against it vehemently pre-episode 7. However, they were all arguing against Shannon, Kanon and Beatrice being the same person, the actual way in which they're the same person wasn't so relevant to their argument. All evidence they presented to the contrary was centered around the idea that the three people, or at least two of the three, were entirely separate people in separate bodies.

>(though Kanon is still iffy--I'm inclined to think he was a real person at one point or another, and shit got weird in the games)
I'm inclined to think that people who think that are pretty stubborn.

"Detective authority" makes you Poirot or any other standard detective. People on the scene respect you, obey your requests, and have to respond to questioning. But they can still *lie*, and they can not inform you of huge amounts of information.

"Observers power" is cheating. It lets you force background detail out of the story. It's also incredibly poorly defined, and as far as I can tell just makes people talkative.

You could probably get the same effect if rather than the shine of power in Will's hand, he was just slipping them some speed..

>>6710626
>Everyone on the island calls Kinzo "The Master", "Grandfather" or "Father". Noone calls him "Kinzo" except in fantasy scenes (except possibly Nanjo? I can't remember, but it doesn't matter).
Because it's completely inappropriate to do so. Do you call your father/grandfather by their first names? It's also appropriate for servants to do so.

The only one who should normally be calling Kinzo by his name is Nanjo (and people who don't properly respect him, like Beatrice) so that's why he's the only one who did it.

The viewpoint is hugely important.

>>6710632

Look at you swallowing everything you believe in. EP7 tea party is fake, what Bern showed us wasn't detective fiction. Early in it someone says something that proves it, it stands like a sore thumb unless you dont know what it actually means. If you dont know what it actually means its because you haven't read that many detective novels.

>>6710626
>Everyone on the island calls Kinzo "The Master", "Grandfather" or "Father". Noone calls him "Kinzo" except in fantasy scenes (except possibly Nanjo? I can't remember, but it doesn't matter).
Because it's completely inappropriate to do so. Do you call your father/grandfather by their first names? It's also inappropriate for servants to do so. In fact, if people did call this huge patriarch of the family by his first name, it might be viewed as poor characterization.

The only one who should normally be calling Kinzo by his name is Nanjo (and people who don't properly respect him, like Beatrice) so that's why he's the only one who did it.

The viewpoint is hugely important.

>>6710651

I just thinks it's bullshit if Kanon is another name for yasu, then "Kanon is dead" can be true while Shannon is still walking around.

Having Kanon as a real person who then died solves most red truth issues without magic lightbulb personalities. EP6's logic error still makes no sense though.

>>6710651

That's because the whole mechanism for Shkannontrice is so ridiculous and borders on fantasy. We've gone from a fantasy version of DID to Imaginary Friends which is not a fucking improvement, and likely just a metaphor for DID.

The only way I'd accept Shkannontrice is if it wasn't a genuine case of DID or Imaginary Friends and it was all the same personally conciously doing it.

People who get all uppity when people take issue with Shkannontrice just come off like assholes. It IS a difficult theory to swallow, plenty of evidence has been presented for it being a "fact", but not that it's in any way plausible in reality.

If Umineko taught us one thing it's not to accept things as face value.

>>6710681
Even Nanjo refers to him as Kinzo-san. Beatrice and The Narrator (perspective that narrates most 3rd-person scenes but doesn't actually belong to any character) are pretty much the only ones who will not use honorifics to refer to anyone.

>>6710707
A character who was never introduced being referred to by the red would be even worse. We have never seen any hint of any real Kanon, according to episode 7 all scenes with him happened after Yasu had created him, so why would he turn up now?

>>6710651
Alright, fair point.

But all I'm saying is that Yasu =/= DID.

>>6710707

I personally dislike Shkanon but if he was actually a separate person it would still cause problems. We dont know if some of the unwritten laws of detective fiction apply to this games but it appears that they do. One of them involves moving corpses from their location. This would cause problems in EP2 if Kanon was a individual person unless theres a name trick

>>6710714
>and it was all the same personally conciously doing it.
Which is what episode 7 shows it is? Where is the problem? Yasu consciously remodels her world with her imaginary friends. She knows they aren't real, so it's all her doing it.

>plenty of evidence has been presented for it being a "fact", but not that it's in any way plausible in reality.
It is a fact, you'd do best to get over it.

>>6710707

I liked the idea of the "Quantum Servant" where either Shannon or Kanon is on the island at the start of the game. It would explain why their existences are tied together since only one can live when the bomb goes off.

Beatrice/Yasu could even be a seperate perrson since 1) They're in the VIP Lounge which might in fact be off the island since it's underwater, 2) They could be the third "Quantum Servant". It's possible in 1 of 3 games Beatrice isn't even on the Gameboard, but has people carry out the events in her place(such as Shannon or Kanon).

The one thing that bothers me about Yasu being a seperate person is that if they are the culprit we haven't been introduced to them early in the story as per Knox's rules.

But if she isn't, then it's fine.

>>6710677
You're grasping at straws if you call every little thing at that tea party fake.

Parents working together solving the gold - most likely true. EP4 supports this well.

Everything Yasu said, including her blowing up the shrine to test the explosives - most likely true. There was no reason for her to lie. And there's good alternative to why the shrine suddenly went missing. Her explaination is perfect.

Kyrie and Rudolf mercilessly killing everybody - Somewhat true but is lacking the heart. There's more to it than Bern showed. I really doubt Kyrie is as heartless as the tea party portrayed her.

>>6710733
>But all I'm saying is that Yasu =/= DID.
Anyone who's anyone knows that. There are maybe one or two people who still think she has multiple personalities for some reason, and I suspect they just frequent Umineko threads without even having read 7. But even then why they still think that is unfathomable.

>>6710677
You're grasping at straws if you call every little thing at that tea party fake.

Parents working together solving the gold - most likely true. EP4 supports this well.

Everything Yasu said, including her blowing up the shrine to test the explosives - most likely true. There was no reason for her to lie. And there's no good alternative to why the shrine suddenly went missing. Her explaination is perfect.

Kyrie and Rudolf mercilessly killing everybody - Somewhat true but is lacking the heart. There's more to it than Bern showed. I really doubt Kyrie is as heartless as the tea party portrayed her.

>>6710707
>EP6's logic error still makes no sense

Well, that's why it's a logic error, right?

On this train of thought, is it implied that Battler actually did the error on purpose in an attempt to get Moetrice back to her old self? I've heard this thrown around and I honestly can't remember if something like it was ever mentioned.

>>6710726

It's the only plausible explanation for why people don't notice they're the same person. The real Kanon is dead, and his death is being covered up. There's a clue to a servant being injured in the constant references to "a servant who didn't respect beatrice" (which also describes Kanon's character in the episodes), so it's not a stretch to image they actually died, and were called Kanon.

It's the same as Kinzo being dead. Either Jessica is /unbelievably/ retarded, or she's in on it.

>>6710756
You sure? It really does seem like (or did seem like) there are quite a few people who still think Yasu is fucking insane and has a bazillion personalities.

>>6710746
But we were introduced to Yasu. In a traditional detective story, you are introduced to characters, but that doesn't mean you learn all about them. They don't go "This is Mr Brown, but that's an alias for his true name Mr Black, he's the culprit in this story(and he does it because he needed money), more about that later."

Being introduced to Kanon and Shannon and Beatrice and being hinted that they're the same person through the episodes is enough. What their real name is, and the true nature of the person acting behind them, is something traditionally saved for the end of the story.

It sounds like people who disagree with this just want the answer handed to them on a silver platter, and think detective rules are their entitlement to that. Even if Yasu is the culprit, it's justified.

>>6710776
I'm sure. Whenever someone says something to that effect (like still using the term DID meido to describe Yasu), they are called out for it.

>>6710759

Mate, reread it. It has nothing to do with what they do or if they are playing out of character.

One character says one sentence that automatically makes the whole scene something other than a detective mystery. If you didn't see it its because you dont know what it actually means in the genre and RK is trolling you.

>>6710791
>One character says one sentence that automatically makes the whole scene something other than a detective mystery

Mind letting us know what this sentence is, then? No reason to be so cryptic.

>>6710532
>>6710579
Forgive my ignorance but what are you people talking about? I don't remember any inconsistency in that scene.

>>6710770
And how was that person killed, exactly? By who? The servant is referred to as falling down the stairs near the portrait, but for your theory to work, Kanon has to have died in Jessica's room.

An explanation that's properly hinted at is 1. Yasu is the family head, the servants body her. 2. Yasu has huge wealth and is able to bribe people. Rosa, at least, is blatantly bribed in episode 2, from saying she spoke to Kinzo and he confirmed Shannon's alibi, and Genji's. Then she shifts all the blame onto the conveniently non-existent Kanon.
3. Yasu knows the truth about Kinzo's death, anyone who wants to hide that has to hide Yasu's secrets too.
4. Most of the people on the island on the two days are only present there once a year, and on said years it's not even guaranteed "Shannon" and "Kanon" will be both on shift.
5. The stories are fictional letters in bottles, the first of which being from Yasu, the later being inspired by Yasu. So it's understandable if there's a slant to allow Yasu's things to exist.
6. Kanon may not actually exist publicly to the whole island outside the message bottles, he may just be a shared secret among few, just like Beatrice's existence is.

>>6710800

Hideyoshi likens the whole scene with Maria and the letter to a mystery novel. This just doesn't happen and its a big taboo in the genre.

This is different from breaking the 4th wall and actually calling the whole story a detective novel similar to what Carr does in three coffins and what many of the characters do here in a meta like setting.

Its something very subtle, but I trust that RK did his research with Umineko and is playing that card right now in EP7 tea party.

>>6710800
Bern says it isn't anyone's game, but the truth. In other words, it's reality, and doesn't need to follow mystery's rules. The "mystery" of Umineko was discovering Yasu's heart, that's all over and done with now. First we get a bad interpretation of what really happened, episode 8 will have a better interpretation.

>>6710836
You mean because Hideyoshi said "this is like a mystery novel!" It isn't a mystery?

>>6710840

Incorrect, adding a little more hiragana and kanji to that particular red would have switched its meaning entirely. We know Ange drowned it out when she yelled it could very well have ended as "This is all truthless"

>>6710763
People say that a lot, but I doubt it. I just reread EP6 before the patch for 7 was released and still didn't see how people could see it. Battler isn't competent enough to pull something like that and have it actually work. Face it, he got soft and gave Erika her duct tape, and it worked out in the end. There's no way he could have planned something so intricate, even if he DOES know the truth now.

>>6710770
More likely is that half the people are playing along with Yasu's games and then less people are actually ignorant. Really, we know Genji, Kumasawa and Nanjo are aware of who Yasu is, and it's extremely likely that they play along with her delusions (supported by 'Ronove' and 'Virgilia' appearing in her delusions). Who else is on the island more than for occasional visits? Natsuhi, Krauss, Jessica, and Gohda. Natsuhi has to deal with a lot of servants and mad headaches, so she probably doesn't pay enough attention to see that Shannon and Kanon look so similar; that, or since they refer to each other as 'siblings', maybe she considers the idea that they really were orphaned siblings and that they got reunited when Kanon was 'hired' (Kinzo was still alive at that point, could be a whim of his for all Nappi knows), so they have a resemblance.

>>6710864
Krauss probably doesn't interact with the servants enough to notice, especially since they're usually not working on the same shifts. Jessica is probably in on it (no way that bitch doesn't know Kinzo is dead, and I'm still holding onto Moon-chan being involved somehow, yes I mad). That leaves Gohda, who could go either way - he's so full of himself and looks down on them so he doesn't bother noticing how similar they look, heard the rumor that they're siblings from Natsuhi or something, or maybe was told to play along by Genji and Kumasawa (his seniors in both age and servitude, not just little kids the way he views Shannon and Kanon) and knows the whole deal.

Other than that, save for the conference, only one of them is probably ever on duty when the family members randomly visit, and it's not like they see them every day in their busy lives enough to notice. I can see raising eyebrows during the '86 conference when supposedly both Shannon and Kanon are present, but even then there's so much else going on (Battler's back after 6 years and is a focus of attention; in EP5 and 6 Erika steals the spotlight, then the murders start and clearly most of them are either in on it or too distracted to notice).

I can see it being pulled off, but that's just it - it has to be 'pulled off'. Yasu is fully aware that this shit is all fake, and it's conscious effort. There's no legitimate DID or anything like that here. Yasu has to be fully aware of what s/he is doing, but for someone who has read a lot of detective novels it shouldn't be that hard to fool everyone else - and clearly, it works.

>>6710854

Tell me , before you knew about Dine's 20 did you find that scene with Battler and the cigarette butt to be exhilarating and you said to yourself "That proves it, Eva and Hideyoshi are the culprit" , a lot of people knew that just because of that scene it actually lessened the probability of Hideyoshi being a culprit in that game.

Same thing applies in this case, just because you dont know some of the unwritten rules in detective fiction doesn't mean that they dont exist and are playing a part in the story.

>>6710836

Hahahahahaha oh wow. I thought that might be what you meant, but assumed you couldn't be that much of a retard.

That sort of thing gets used ALL THE TIME in mystery stories. Hell, I reread Murder On The Orient Express earlier today, and it gets said about a dozen times in that. The genre has changed as it develops, by the 30s mystery was so common that having it mentioned in a story wasn't an issue at all.

>>6710869
Will also nods to how difficult it is for Yasu, with episode 2 saying if George just walked in to see Shannon's corpse it would have all been over. Not to mention the episode 3 first twilight, a very elaborate setup. Yasu makes sure Shannon's corpse is the location most likely to be broken into first, because it's on the first floor and has a row of windows, while making Kanon's corpse the furthest away and least likely to be discovered first, and the end of the looped closed room. This gives Yasu as much time as possible and distracts them with as many corpses as possible before they encounter Yasu playing dead again in the chapel.

>>6710878
I was just asking you neutrally. I wasn't aware such a rule even existed, and I wasn't laughing at it or anything.

>>6710836
I don't remember this. Screencap please?

>>6710882

Tell me more about Christie being provocative and saying "screw the rules" with her stories with the narrator being the culprit, a child being the culprit, everyone being the culprit, the detective being the culprit, etc.

Christie is a good writer, but she made her living by twisting the norms. In this story its apparent that things are following a set of rules. Picking and choosing the ones you want to follow is poor form.

>>6710828

Jessica still makes no fucking sense, no one is that retarded.

Kinzo's death isn't enough. All the parents figured it out already. There must be SOME REASON Jessica etc doesn't immediately out ShKanon after one of them "dies".

It would be easiest if Jessica was responsible for Kanon's death, but "Jessica is not a murderer". You could play with semantics and say she killed him in self defence, but there's no clue to that. You could also have Krauss or Natsuhi be resposible and the other's cover for them, but again there's no clues for that.

I just felt so clever when I came up with the idea orginally, and everything seemed to slot into place. Then I noticed "Kanon's death was not an accident" and "Jessica is not a murderer", so yeah... it's not working too well. But I still like the concept.

>>6710929
But the biggest influence on Umineko is probably Christie, so...?

>>6710930
More like you got told those two things in another thread.

>>6710933

Its influenced by a lot of writers really, its just apparent from the setting that it follows Christie the most. But the abundance of locked rooms points at Carr also.

>>6710707
>Having Kanon as a real person who then died solves most red truth issues without magic lightbulb personalities.
I would have thought everyone had realized by now how the whole deal with Sakutarou explains the death of a piece.

Kanon is Yasu's piece, all it takes is for people to believe that his vessel is gone and he can be proclaimed dead in red.

>>6710929

...you're saying that in a series that involves fantasy scenes, outright lies in narration, an incompetent detective, and paranormal assistance in the red truth. Umineko is one of the most non-standard mysteries ever (whether it's any good or not is irrelevant).

I don't even see what you're trying to prove here. That EP7's tea party wasn't a mystery? No shit, we saw everyone getting killed! There's no fucking mystery there!

>>6710933
the biggest influence on Umineko is Forest

>>6710947

Where is it shown that concepts can be declared "dead" in red truth? I've heard people mention sakutarou as "proof" before, but it isn't proof of shit.

>>6710947

Then this applies to all characters right? At least those whose wounds dont seem fatal right? So Maria would be alive in EP3 locking the doors and window latches and is the one that shoots George, Shannon and Nanjo.

Makes total sense.

I was just thinking - who will the "Detective" be in Episode 8?

It can't be Battler since he's a GM.

>>6710954
More like the thing Umineko rips off the most.

>>6710961
Detectives belong in mysteries. Therefore, there will be no detectives. It will most likely just be a normal story, with perhaps a choice of whether you would like your Yasu with a disfigured womb or disfigured penis.

>>6710954
>>6710962

I can't find out anything in particular about Forest.

>>6710955
It's not in red, but a huge chunk of the episode deals with the deaths of pieces/imaginary friends, with the "dead" terminology being emphasized. I think it's our own mistake to write it off as unimportant, especially since Chiru has been hitting people over the heads with over-relying on red and under-emphasizing white for a while.

>>6710976
True. All the Ange scenes so far have mostly been parallels to Yasu's own world, but people ignored them. They thought "we get it already, the stakes aren't real, god" and just waited for the end.

>>6710763

It's just Battlerfags being butthurt.

He simply got raped by Erika.

And I love how the ring scene was made to sound like she was really raping him.

>>6710970
It's a visual novel, not a western author name. There are plans to translate it, so it's not like you can check it by yourself, but everyone who played it agrees that Umineko is built upon the same idea... which is kinda peculiar to that game, so it would be enough to call it a "ripoff".

>>6710959
Maria isn't anyone's piece. Wat.

>>6710763
It was Battler's goal to revive Beatrice, and the result of his "fuckups" revived her. I don't like the idea myself because it means Beato was playing in the palm of her hand.

And it's sad to cheapen it, because the moment where Kanon tells Beato how to be a witch is the biggest bro moment in Umineko.

>>6711012
Or is she? Maybe "Maria" is just a little doll Rosa carries around and everyone just goes along with it or don't notice because they're too busy with other things? Rosa has already been shown to be plenty delusional, thinking "Maria's" father (the guy who gave her the doll) will ever come back.

>>6710983
Guilty. I knew that stuff was all going to be important when I first read EP4, but it seriously did drag quite a bit to the point where I stopped caring about Ange after a while and just wanted the murders to start. You have to admit that even before Chiru, EP4 was a huge departure from the way the story was told in 1-3. It's unfortunate but people get comfortable with something and don't like it when it changes. I think that's why the Ange stuff in EP4 turned a lot of people off. But when I read 7 it became apparent that she was always an allegory and a hint for Yasu's story to support Ryukishi's 'you can solve it with 1-4' thing.

Which is bullshit, anyway, because even if you look closely and pull out Yasu's heart, you can't solve the whole mystery with just 1-4 because A) no evidence for the baby who fell off the cliff whatsoever and B) no hint towards Taiwan being so central to the epitaph riddle. Both of those things first came up in EP5 and are pretty important to solving it, so I call bullshit.

>>6711029
>Both of those things first came up in EP5 and are pretty important to solving it
How is the epitaph important to solving the mystery at all?

>no evidence for the baby who fell off the cliff whatsoever
You don't need to know the baby fell off a cliff. If you can cast some doubt over why Shannon was hired so early after discerning she is the same person as Kanon and Beatrice, you're well on your way.

>>6711029
And I call bullshit on people who cry about Natsuhi's baby, because all that did was serve as an additional hint. It's not necessary to figure out the essence of what was going on with Yasu. If it serves as anything beyond a hint, it's just filling in some background details, not serving as a core aspect of the mystery. People basically did figure out Yasu based on 1-4 through the Pony Theory and the like. You didn't need to know Kinzo tried to pawn off one of his Beatrices on Natsuhi and it didn't go so well to realize he had a chain of Beatrices going on (and it's not that big a leap from there to work out where they must have been coming from), Kinzo's "mistake", and that Genji and Kumasawa were hiding the latest from him because of that. Pony Theory figured out all of that.

>>6711049
Pony Theory + Shkanontrice + Ange scenes = answer to Umineko.

>>6711003
Care to shed some light on Forest for those of us interested? Google isn't helping. Just spoiler tag it.

>>6711020
Wow, if you're not trolling then you're incredibly retarded.

I can understand how this scene wasn't narrated by Erika and all, but the fact she didn't notice ShKanon despite detective's authority is just stupid.

>>6711073

Your incredibly retarded just by saying htis

>>6711073

...he's being sarcastic. I think you might be dumb.

>>6711078
She also didn't notice all the faked deaths despite detective authority. She is incredibly narrow-minded. It's the ones who put any faith in Erika who are stupid.

>>6711078

She was covering it up. Bernkastel didn't want Battler to figure out the truth.

>>6711106

When does ep VIII come out?
Today? Tomorrow?

>>6711068
The whole concept of interaction between fiction and reality (and more precisely, fiction painting over reality giving birth to a multi layered reality), a gothloli witch challenging the players with "riddles" taken from literature (in this case, children/fantasy literature like Narnia, LotR, Wonderland, Eliot's Cats, etc) they're supposed to solve and whose weakness is boredom, the protagonist being incompetent, everything beginning from the protagonist and a girl flirting/making shit up some years before, two different character are actually just one character that switches "personality" when putting on a dress, a character you think exists doesn't actually exists, a few flashbacks giving a whole new prospective to what really happened, the resolution of it all being set years after all that shit happened... all of this is basically lifted off Forest, possibly more since I just wrote down the most glaring examples.

>>6711124

I doubt R07 read this "forest" and decided to copy if for Umineko, most of these thing are common in these kind of story and the other are probably just coincidences

>>6711123
Tomorrow. It's morning on the 30th in Japan right now, it comes out on the 31st.

>>6711135
I hope you're being sarcastic.

>>6711105

Now that you mention it that was also stupid as fuck, but at least plausible.

Not noticing ShKanon would be a lot harder.

>>6711124

Pics of the VN?

I want to see the Goth Loli witch.

Also in fairness Beatrice isn't really "goth loli", the only goth loli is maybe Bern but she could just as easily be european looking, or western goth, which makes perfect sense for a witch. Lambda could be Sweet Loli, or she could the be Switchblade Symphony kinderwhore goth kind of style.

I think while it does sound pretty damning a lot of things sound very similar when you list them out on paper. I think I pointed out before how Umineko reads a lot like it was written by someone who listened to too much Throbbing Gristle.

>>6711163
Keep in mind it's a 2004 game.

What will be the next babby's first VN after Umineko ends?

>>6711135

Forest is amongst of the highest rated VNs ever.

Of course it's not as popular as crap for idiots like FSN, but I'm pretty sure everybody in VN business knows it.

>>6711176
I'm really grateful LS hired a new artist.
This and kusari just don't look well, especially the eyes.

>>6711176

Hah, cute. Looks like a gothier white haired Orin. Guess that's where he got Maria's crown from. Or they could just both be chess crazy. Doesn't a character from Shana have a hat like that too?

>>6711177
Babby's first VNs has always been FSN, Saya and YMK. And they will continue to be.

>>6711179
Actually, I'm pretty sure FSN is rated higher than Forest, if you're talking about erogamescape
It's a really niche title though and doesn't hold the reader by hand nearly as much as Umineko does, so bad scores are inevitable.

>>6711091
>your
>he calls me a retard
>laughinggirls.jpg

>>6711078
No one said she didn't notice, it was just irrelevant to her theory. She managed to find the 'truth' by blaming Natsuhi, so she didn't have to bring Shkannon into the mix for any reason. There's nothing saying she didn't notice it, it just didn't factor into her logic so it never came up.

>>6711179
>>6711124
Sure, okay, Umineko is a ripoff of this game.

But I really couldn't give less of a shit.

>>6711181

True. Their new style is much better.

>>6711216
Anon, delete that ultra spoiling post

>>6711210
If she noticed it I think she would have been able to win the episode 6 duel.

>>6711195

YMK? First I've heard of it being a newb recommendation. Ever 17 more like it. Sengoku Rance if you count that.

>>6711239
YMK is THE babby recommendation for a thing with more or less a eroge feel.

>>6711239
>newb

>>6711231
Thanks, but both their new styles are awesome, Valusia's coloring was excellent, in my opinion, and my only drive to keep reading it after chapter 6.

>>6711217
Well, nobody was bringing it up to make anyone give a shit. It started about talk about what influenced Umineko and someone kept prodding for information.

>>6711135
Forest is pretty famous, Ryuukishi read it for sure.
Even Nasu hired Meteor because he really loved it.

>>6711231

Better?

Where can I see more about Forest? It sounds like my ideal VN, even moreso than Umineko. I love the art style in that picture too, I don't get why people find it icky, though I guess I'm used to looking at Umineko and Type Moon.

Googling Forest VN, Visual novel does nothing.

>>6711261
the Charlotte having a golden eye and confronting Mary with a black sword kinda spoils that awesome last chapter,
And since it's supposed to be translated, let's not piss off people.

>>6711201

Comparing Liar-Soft to Type-Moon is like comparing Shakespeare to Rowling.

>>6711274
You need a really good jap for forest. Hoshizora Meteor is very unique.
now that I think of it, we're gonna need forest links soon, since they'll be pretty much dead
http://www.hongfire.com/forum/showthread.php?t=97680&page=1

>>6711278

I wish people would stop using Shakespear as all that is good and great is literature, I liked a lot of his ideas but his writing wasn't exactly in a different world to teenlit like Harry Potter and some of his plots were retarded.

>>6711302
Okay, how about Cervantes from the ecaxt same time period?

>>6711274
Search for "forest liar-soft" or something.

Umineko has the stupidest fucking fanbase. Even when Ryukishi spells shit out clear as day for you fucks you still don't get it.

>>6711302
Protip: Most of the people comparing things to Shakespeare have seen a school play of Romeo and Juliet and that's it.

>>6711295
Oh, working ddl
https://www.hongfire.com/forum/showthread.php?t=241670&pagenumber=
I better get it.

>>6711308
You shouldn't ask much from yaoi fangirls

>>6711308
Mad much?

Why does it matter? It isn't part of the truth. Games Erika appears in are fiction, as it was said in Red text that Furudo Erika drowned

>>6711302

That's the point.

Shakespeare is a hack with style loved by critics.

Rowling is just a hack.

If this doesnt end with a BLUE-RED battle between Battler and Bern atop the mansion ill be very disappointed.

>>6711308
It's more like Umineko invites the reader to a thinking game, and the average person reveals how retarded they are by trying to play that game. In other VNs, there are things that are hinted at rather than shown in black and white, but they are few and far between compared to Umineko, and the not-so-bright person gets told by someone who comprehended the hint right away.

For instance, a while back someone was asking whether Sakura raped Shirou in HF. It struck me as pretty retarded, as the dream sequence was obviously Rider's doing. If FSN were Uminkeo, they might go make a trainwreck of a theory based on their flawed comprehension.

>>6711350
Protip: people calling Shakespeare a hack are usually edgy kids, rarely as older than 25.

>>6711359
Your point is irrelevant because both fanbase's are stupid.

>>6710094
It' not complicated: To /jp/, Erika is completely retard and it is funnier to throw away anything disturbing for what you think, even if it means rewriting the basis of umineko.

>>6711308
Yeah, seriously. I hear some people even think this is of the mystery genre. Isn't that just the silliest thing you ever heard?

At the end of ep 6, Erika declares in red that she is the 18th person
then battlerbeato say in red that even with her there are 17
both finish their sentences in red
Erika wasn't cut off like when battler tried to say he was asumu's son
both are right?

Looks like the Forestfags are out in full force today.

>>6711395
They are both right, but referring to different things. Erika is the 18th person, but she is only an insert into fictional message bottles. The truth is, she was not really there on the island during those two days, which is what Battler and Beato are referring to. This is why before saying that, Erika was talking about facing the truth of herself. She was the witch who could withstand the truth (her own words), and existed there despite knowing that she just drowned.

>>6711395
Because awful japanese nuances between the two terms used to say person

>>6711395
She's the 18th "visitor", not a person, she's a corpse before the game begins.

This thread smells like cheap vodka.

I hate literature snobs. I consider FSN to be a pretty epic story, the fact that it's not "shakespear" doesn't matter a toss for me, I had fun reading it.

I remember a crime writer went on television recently, talking about how everyone asks him when he's going to write a "Real" book.

He talked about the work of one of these people, and how they had long paragraphs in the books that were specially marked. Basically the mark meant that you could safely skip these sections without relevance to the plot.

For him, this summed up a lot of the "Literature" he was supposed to be writing. You can skip it and miss nothing. A lot of it wasn't intellectual, it was just pretentious waffling.

Granted Umineko and FSN have plenty of their own philosophical ranting, but at least it has some relevance to the plot and doesn't rely on it to make up for boring characters.

And if you think the Type Moon or When They Cry cast is "boring", have you read a "proper" book recently? Most characters in anything are paper thin. Most mystery novels just have flat character archetypes, and I don't mean like in anime where they're at least somewhat vibrant if stereotypical(in the same vein as the Team Fortress 2 cast), but just genuinely boring. You especially get this in Sci-Fi novels too. What matters is the idea of a plot the author has, and the characters are just vessels for communicating this idea. In fact I'm almost sure Clair was a reference to this.

A lot of people who go on about proper literature and how shit these visual novels are compared to the more highly regarded ones, etc., just because something seems to be "trashy" to you doesn't mean people are wrong to enjoy it. If you take a step back you'll find a gulf of a difference to what's popular on this board and what's popular in western culture in general.

Compare the writing in Avatar or Transformers to Umineko. As retarded as Shkannontrice is, there's no fucking contest.

>>6711332
Yaoi fangirls, in a series where the female characters outnumber the males that much? EP7 maybe, but I don't think Umineko is exactly known for its yaoi

>>6711437
Mosy umineko doujins for comiket are yaoi.

>>6711437
Actually it is.
Did you know that about 145 doujin about Umineko were made in 2010?
Do you know the percentage of yaoi doujin?
Hint, it's much higher than you think.

There is a reason why Ryuukishi introduced Will and Leon in episode 7.

>>6711433
If you want to critique the writing in novels don't use blocbuster movies for your example, these are 2 completely different media.
Fuck, you must be one huge retard.

>>6711469
He is right when he says that there is a lot of genre prejudice in the literary world, though.

>>6711469

He's right though.

All modern mystery novels either use overdone crap we all saw hundreds of times before or crazy shit that make ShKanon as normal as sunlight during the day.

>>6711469

The closest comparison to a VN would probably be comics in the west, at least the ones that get compiled into "graphic novels".

Sorry but stuff like Umineko still comes out on top. I wish there were more comics and western novels in the vein of stuff like Umineko, Fate Stay Night and of course Forest. But if there is, it's hard to find and /lit/ are jerks who don't want to help me.

>>6711525
Are you Erika?

Who care about novels or comics, this is /jp/ not /lit/ or /co/.
Compare Umineko with other eroge/VNs.

It may be better written with better characters than most nukige but sorry it doesn't compare with most upper-middle and top tier VNs.

>>6711525
And that make it good?
Shit is shit, even if it's overused shit.

>>6711552
You probably think YMK is good

>>6711525

It's pretty widely known that Sci-Fi books have been "autistic" like that for ages(as in it reads like it was written by an autistic person even if it wasn't, characters are often overly literal and any quirks they have are overstated and hard to believe, not trying to invoke the tiresome AUTISM AT IT'S FINEST meme that's become popular in recent years). A lot of Fantasy novels too.

What people shy away from saying is that most books are like this too, in general. People who read books are seen as smart so obviously books must be the highest form of fiction. But really, they aren't. A lot gets lost in a book and a lot of people that dedicate themselves to writing novels are unable to portray their view of a character without a visual element.

The idea of an illustrated novel would be frowned upon as childish, and not allowing people to exercise their imagination, but in reality it would help to create a much better sense of the characters and what's going on.

Have you ever gotten that feeling when you're falling asleep, that you could be asleep somewhere else? Like if you live away from home, that you're back at your parents in your room there, etc. a lot of books feel the same, you don't have a good sense of where you are and who you're dealing with and it's something that's either ignored by a lot of writers, or approached in the form of purple prose.

With a visual novel, you'll almost never have this unless it wants to. Even Umineko's crappy shooped backgrounds and overly saturated sprites still give a better sense of being somewhere. The fact that a lot of people won't admit is that portraying fiction by means of words alone is actually really hard, and most "writers" don't have the skill to do it.

>>6711563
It's been like 4 years since I read it, I don't even remember what I think of it.

But most of you only read Umineko along with the aforementioned YMK and FSN so you don't have much room to judge.
There is a reason why Umineko has an average of 77 in Egs, and no it's not because Japaneses can't understand the deep stories with mature characters for mature readers such as myself.

>>6711552

Like what? What VNs are so much better than Umineko? It's easy to claim a VN I can't read since I don't know moon is "better". In that case it could also be possible that people who do know japanese may in some cases still be reading the translations for convenience sake, which obviously aren't as good, or have a weaker grasp on japanese on which case it's going to be harder to discern quality due to different writing styles being more difficult to understand.

they are different forms of literature, stop trying to compare them like gaijin father rage

>>6711590
Symphonic Rain
Cross Channel
Sekien no Inganock
Sharin no Kuni

They are available in english, go read them.

The reason I brought up Transformers is because it's regularly defended as "Transformers isn't shakespear". But it doesn't matter, a lot of the comics, especially the Generation 2 ones, were pretty enjoyable in a more refined manner than the MTV generation presentation that is Michael Bay's toss. There are things that are cheesy but still have a heart, and then there's stuff that just makes you cringe. But people are so used to it, their cringe reflexes are deadened. Perhaps that's why they confuse enjoyable visual novels with genuinely cringe worthy fiction.

>>6711579

I remember when someone brought this up the last time, one of the "Deep" VNs they favoured actually got a similar score.

Scores don't really mean much especially since Umineko is largely gambling on how well it's ending will go down. That could raise or drop the percentage significantly. Most VNs are more enjoyable in small doses, Umineko can make it genuinely painful at times not knowing what's going to come up next.

>>6711610
How about no?
Higurashi ALWAYS ranked in the mid 80s and ALWAYS sold better than umineko, except for the first volume.

>>6711599
Nice shit taste faggot

>>6711637
You are an Umineko fag, don't talk about taste

>>6711622
Higurashi is also worse than Umineko, so I'm not sure what point you're trying to make.

>>6711622

Higurashi is also not Umineko.

It goes pretty far out there in terms of plot devices in terms of being a mystery not to mention the setting is a lot more familiar and appreciated by the average Nippon.

I don't think Higurashi instills the same sense of "I need to know the fucking ending" as Umineko does.

>>6711653
>Higurashi is also worse than Umineko
nope
>>6711658
>"I need to know the fucking ending"
Well after 6 arcs of people acting out of character, weird shit happening and 1 as a really bad end, I can tell you it does that pretty well.

>>6711637
>>6711649
In this topic, people arguing about their taste in pulpy lit. Next up, bitching about how Avon is totally better than Harlequin when it comes to romance novels bawwwwwww.

>>6711676
>nope
yep

>>6711622

So Twilight and Harry Potter are the pinnacle of modern literature?

And One Piece is the best manga in history?

Sorry but it's a scientific fact that most humans are stupid.

>>6711653
Higurashi is better.
The narrative is stronger, the characters are stronger and it's not nearly as repetitive.
Ryuukishi got a little better at writing in Umineko but it's still pretty crappy so that's not really a plus.

Higurashi had a really mysterious and endearing feeling to it, Umineko just feel like the author tries to create as much "noise" as he can just to drag his story further.
Also Higurashi doesn't have these terrible LOVE LOVE LET'S SPAM LOVE parts and the horrible, horrible flashbacks, Ange's flashback is pretty much one of the crappiest flashback I have ever seen in fiction.

Umineko is just a very simple story that is dragged on far too much.

>>6711622

Who cares?

Gundam SEED sold many times better than Cowboy Bebop, does that mean it's many times better?

Besides Higurashi had a high school protag with his harem and killer lolis.

>>6711693
Are you trying to imply Twilight doesn't rank up there with the classics? I will fucking slap your shit, son. Twilight is the pinnacle of writing, and I dare you to name something better.

>>6711722
>Besides Higurashi had a high school protag with his harem and killer lolis.
And?
Also there is no killer lolis in Higurashi

is this about the game or the anime? i thought the anime was done and over with

I'm done with umineko7, but I can't tell what is true and what is just made up.

Anyone happen to know why the year matters? Why would it have been less dangerous the previous or next year?

Only key elements I spot are:
1) Parents in mad need of money.
2) George proposal.
3) Some extreme subtle hint at the specific servants making a difference.

>>6711695
>Higurashi is better.
Nope.
>The narrative is stronger, the characters are stronger and it's not nearly as repetitive.
The narrative is not stronger. Ryukishi loses several plot points and the characters waver quite a bit before settling down into their molds. Keiichi is especially bad about this. In Onikakushi he's entirely convincing as a kid who had been in a new place for two weeks. As the series progresses, his relationship with the characters only makes sense if he's been there for far longer. Having the characters be family members in Umineko made this a non-issue.

>Higurashi had a really mysterious and endearing feeling to it,
This is totally opinion and a ridiculous way to argue. I much prefer Umineko's atmosphere, but that has absolutely nothing to do with the quality of the work. Stick to facts, not "feelings".

>>6711695
>Umineko just feel like the author tries to create as much "noise" as he can just to drag his story further.
Actually, it's the opposite. Ryukishi got smart as he continued writing Umineko. By allowing the meta world to hold the ongoing plot and using the repetitions as a stage for it, he allowed for a much stronger continuous narrative--as opposed to Higurashi's attempt to explain that with THE POWER OF HEART or whatever. That means Umineko doesn't need to rely on things like club games in order to repeat the same basic facets of the character personalities over and over again to familiarize them with the reader so that they would grow attached to them.

>Also Higurashi doesn't have these terrible LOVE LOVE LET'S SPAM LOVE
Love is one of the central themes in Umineko. You might not like it, but the emphasis on it makes sense. However, Higurashi relies on magic voodoo to explain why these kids that have been a group for TWO WEEKS have suddenly become so tightknit as to create miracles through the power of their friendship without being allowed to build on the circumstances of previous games.

>Ange's flashback is pretty much one of the crappiest flashback I have ever seen in fiction.
Ange's flashback was basically world-building and was necessary in order to put the pieces of the plot together. If you go back and re-read those scenes, you'll realize there's pretty much no repetition, just build up to the climax where she kills all the Stakes.

>Umineko is just a very simple story that is dragged on far too much.
That's easy to say, but I don't think you've given me any reason to believe this.

I like them both

Higurashi has a better direction, consistency and characters.

Umineko is more fun to read and has a terrific ost, but it felt like a trainwreck at times

It's true that lots of parts of Umineko feel unnecessary.
And that Ange's part in episode 4 was shitty, it may have had world building but it doesn't mean it had to be boring.
If it doesn't entertain then that mean the author failed.
Personally I don't hate Umineko but I don't consider it as one of my favorite either, I bet most people who at least played most VNs that are available translated would agree. It sits solidly in the middle.

I loved Higurashi and all, but Umineko is much better.

In Higurashi the culprit was obvious by the second arc and the real explanation were brain parasites and moe loli god walking around.

>>6711829
Boring is an opinion. Ange is one of the most popular characters in Japan and I, personally, didn't find her parts boring at all. Then again, I read the whole thing in Japanese and wasn't stuck waiting for a patch.

>>6711845
Ange was popular thank to the end of episode 3.
If you read the reviews in egs you'll see that most people thought her flashback was fucking boring

>>6711831

But Hanyuu was really an amazing character

>>6711855
Which is why she took the number two spot in the EP4 character poll spot too? Again, boring is an opinion not a valid criticism.

>>6711864
Because of the ending of course.
Since you know moonspeak then you can see for yourself.

>>6711855
I'm sorry, but nothing in Umineko is as painful to read and boring as that draaaaaaged out scene in Watanagashi where Ryukishi takes a million words to say "they distracted the people that sexually harassed Shion, put laxatives in their food, and then broke the bathrooms so they couldn't use them". Or that fucking curry contest.

>>6711879
Ep2, as a whole, and some parts of ep6 drag even more.

>>6711870
I think I've only visited EGS once or twice, so I'll have to take your word for it. All I remember last time is someone complaining about the end of EP5 because "Battler joined the bad guys" so maybe that influenced my opinion of the site's reviewers in a negative way.

>>6711761

All 3.

Also, that was the year that everything happened. Beato obviously had plans set up to DESTROY them all but was torn by her other "personalities" love.

If it had been the year before, the love would not have come to a head

If it was the year after, she would be trapped by whatever circumstantial love she choose so it also, wouldn't matter.

I find it funny that most people don't even try to come up with semi-intelligent arguments to voice their thoughts about Umineko. They just take their own opinion as the sole basis of their arguments, and some even try to weakly compare Higurashi to Umineko. He made many more novels, just so you know.

Ryukishi improved his storytelling as he kept writing novels. Higurashi was one of his first big hits a couple of years ago, but people keep improving, and he has shown that in Umineko.
People improve throughout their lives. They make some fuck ups in the process, but that's completely fine. Most of you would do far worse on his shoes.
If you don't take a neutral perspective and just rely on your biased thoughts alone, you will never actually acknowledge the improvement.

Now, do you like Umineko? That's entirely up to you. But let me remind you that stating your opinion alone OR with any half-assed arguments with no grounds isn't enough to prove your point.
Far from it.

This is why every board on 4chan went to "decent" to "ridiculous". People just seem to voice their personal opinion with no regards that some people may disagree and thus should have sole evidence to make their points actually legit.

Use your brains, people. It's actually very simple.

>>6711887
Ep2 and Ep6 were very important.

I don't find "it drags on too much" criticisms very valid when despite dragging on so much you still had people who didn't get it after all that.

>>6711831
The only reason the answer is difficult Umineko is because it's so goddamn convoluted, and he keeps adding characters to the roster. He may claim the answer can be attained by EP4, but who the fuck would have guessed the existence of Yasu? It's ridiculous.

Other than that, yes, Higurashi had a retarded solution, which is why I have a morbid curiosity over how bad Umineko will end. His writing certainly has not improved.

>>6711774

>Ange's flashback was basically world-building and was necessary in order to put the pieces of the plot together. If you go back and re-read those scenes, you'll realize there's pretty much no repetition, just build up to the climax where she kills all the Stakes.

I can get behind a bit of this, but you have to admit that a lot of those "baaaaaw my life sucks" scenes could have been condensed or removed with little to no impact on the delivery of the message.

ITT: people who only watched the Higurashi anime say the Higurashi VN was better than Umineko.

>>6711906
>with little to no impact on the delivery of the message.
See >>6711896

>>6711896
Yet you used the exact same point for watanagashi-hen.
ryuukishi made the SoL redundant to help the contrast between the happy go lucky parts and the everyone is getting murdered.
It's like muv luv extra and alternative, but without being its whole game

>>6711907
>baaaaaw, people prefer the higurashi VN and not my favourite one
Higurashi is less of a trainwreck and has an incredibly well developped cast and despite all its shortcomings, it got really popular in both japan and the west.
The main reason the Umineko VN got popular is because it was translated, and that there is no other mystery done, that's about it.

>>6711919
>you
Nope.

>>6711937
>an incredibly well developped cast
Not really. But its cast is a lot easier to like.

>>6711937
Higurashi VN was never popular, you mean the anime.

>>6711898

Yasu's exsitance isn't the problem here. That's part of the WHY dunnit.

The only facts you can get from eps 1-4 are the following:

Each time, the epitath was solved.
Each time, it caused a massacre.
Each time, the servants were co-erced to help along, as well as maria.
Each time, everyone dies, no matter the position on the island at midnight on day 2. Except eva.
There is 1 less servant with a physical body than there should be. This was the major clue, the rest is slotted into place. As much as i despise shkannon with all of my being it's undeniable that it exists. It isn't the culprit however, ep 7 proves that any of the adults could carry out the murders and covers up as long as they solve the epitath on night 1. Shannon is just the vehicle for the parents murderous rampage.

It sucks that ryu basically used 3 episodes to show the WHY dunnit, but, well, i guess he felt he had to with dumb people like me refusing his dumb shannon.

Seriously. DID meido. Or imaginary friends? ... sigh.

I had fun reasoning out theories with you guys though. I regret nothing.

>>6711896
Who care if they were important.
It doesn't excuse anything, execution is by far the most important thing.

Also catering to the lowest common denominator is never a good thing, you will always have loud retards who can't get anything to save their life, so what?

Higurashi's popularity was more a hype phenomenon than anything, it didn't have any real critical acclaim.
People liked it in the same way they liked Touhou, R07 just managed to create the good "recipe", and since it was a doujin the readers just weren't as harsh with it as usual.

With Umineko the honeymoon is over, people started to see the flaws in R07's writing and storytelling.
That's the true reason why Umineko lost a lot of Higurashi's fanbase.
Now for example if you go to a thread about Rewrite for example you'll see lots of complain about R07 being one of the writer.

>>6711898

Maybe it's just me but personalities dieing as a solution for some red truths was pretty obvious since EP2.

>>6711947
The VN of HIgurashi was incredibly popular well before the anime aired.
The sales of episode 1-8 amounted to 800 000 volumes sold.
The PS2 game sold more than 150 000, that's more than FSN on PS2.

To compare Umineko on PS3 sold 15 000 on its first week and is already out of rank meaning it won't sell more.

>>6711948
>It isn't the culprit however, ep 7 proves that any of the adults could carry out the murders and covers up as long as they solve the epitath on night 1. Shannon is just the vehicle for the parents murderous rampage.
This is how the usual person who didn't quite grasp it summarizes the situation.

It is the culprit. In episodes 1-4, Yasu is the culprit. The parents go on a rampage? No. Episodes 1-2 were written by Yasu, and Yasu is the culprit in them. She thought the epitaph had a very low chance of being solved, and so her scenarios do not have the parents going on a rampage each and every time.

That said, that doesn't mean Yasu is the real culprit who caused the incident outside these message bottles.

>>6711965
In Japan.

>>6711907
This. Having read both the Higurashi and Umineko VNs, saying Higurashi was better is pretty much a fucking joke to me. The only reason people are under the delusion Higurashi was more "solid" or "less of a trainwreck" is because by the time Higurashi got exposure in the West it was pretty much done. God knows what shitstorms there would have been if POWER OF FRIENDSHIP, MAGIC BRAIN DISEASE, and MOE-LOLI OYASHIRO would have gotten if people were actually following Higurashi and making theories as it went like they could for Umineko.

>>6711950
Lucia isn't that bad, but her parts aren't as good, even if I prefer her dere moments to Chihaya as a whole, she can be pretty sweet.

>>6711955
I'm something of a mystery fan, so no, logically that reasoning does not hold weight.

Personalities do not "die", and a person afflicted with Dissociative Personality Disorder cannot kill off their personalities when convenient. It's totally absurd, and a real writer would be ridiculed for pretty much the rest of their career for such a farce.

Luckily for Ryukishi, he's merely a doujin writer for autistics. And I suppose ultimately the fault lies with me, I picked up Umineko thinking it would be an impressive blend of mystery and magic, when I should have expected mediocre from the beginning.

>>6711965

It sold less than 100k before anime aired though.

And remember that those sales are for separate episodes put together.

Umineko would be much more popular if anime wasn't so terrible.

They are both shits, happy?

And for the anon who keep vehemently defending Umineko, since you know moon go read some other VNs for fuck's sake, there is a world out there.
Go read Forest and see how a meta narrative with a powerful message without any boring crap can be done in a great way.
Or are you some crazy fangirl who doesn't want to sully herself with porn?

>>6711970

Ok, i can understand eps 1-2 since that is what she wrote, however, while ep 3 is dubious ep 4 is most certainly parental rampage. Perhaps not as visceral as ep 7 displayed it, i can't think of yasu doing most of the murders in that one.


In a way you can call yasu the "culprit" since she instigates it all by talking about the bomb if shit got solved early. Or, if you go further, she can be named culprit since she basically maes the parents solve the epitath when the need for money is highest, and thusly the bloodlust is higher to get it if it's found. Not that this was a plan of hers, it still is easy to point the blame in her direction.

You know, we still don't know where Kinzo's corpse pops out from.

>>6711982

What where some of the more retarded Higurashi theories back then (akin to jessicatrice/subway/etc)?

>>6712008
higurashi still sold more than umineko and still ranked better than it without the anime.
no one has ever given two shits about some random doujin writer without being ultra popular for his works.

>>6712008
>It sold less than 100k before anime aired though.
No it didn't.
Higurashi was already at episode 7 when the anime started, it was already incredibly popular and a real best seller

>>6712010
In episode 3, Yasu was the one to kill Nanjo, and the one behind the first twilight. The rest is probably a rampage.

Episode 4 I'll give you. I think it's likely that after killing each other a bit, the parents rang up with the whole test thing. Shannon/Kanon talked on the phone too, they were following directions since they don't care after the gold is found.

>>6712009
>since you know moon go read some other VNs for fuck's sake
I very rarely play anything but kinetic novels, which puts most VNs out of my reach. Is Forest a kinetic novel?

>>6712011

Good question, if i was 2 years he would either be putrefied or beef jerky (assuming Yasu/etc didn't have him put in a secret freezer). Seeing as in any story he described as burnt it would be hard for anyone to tell if he was dried up or frozen.

>>6712003
In other words, you're a moron who decided on your own without any input from the story what the terms and rules were, and therefore didn't pay any attention when it fucking explained to you the worldview it was operating under so you could figure it out. And now you're throwing a buttmad sore loser temper tantrum about it.

>>6712029
>play anything but kinetic novels
WHY?

>>6712029
>I very rarely play anything but kinetic novels
you should play more normal ones, like really.

>>6712003
Yasu doesn't have DID, learn to read.

>>6712054
>DID

What is the "DID" people keep referring to?

>>6712029
not him, but I haven't read forest since the style is quite hard, including voice only lines and shit, but it does have a shitton of choices, but according to this
http://www.foolmaker.net/game/h/forest.html
it should be linear, though I could be wrong.

>>6712063
Dissociative Personality Disorder, also known as multiple personalities. The most common theory for Shkanontrice before episode 7 proved that Shkanontrice works on a conscious control level with imaginary friends.

>>6712063
Dissociative Personality Disorder, otherwise known as having multiple personalities.

>>6712063
read remember11, it's explained and well used there.

>>6712063

Dissasoiative identity disorder.

Basically schizo but a bit more defined. Except if shannon did have DID then it'd have to be magic since there is no way to magically pop into another personality. No, no, shkannon/yasu is actively playing these parts and deluding it's self that these parts it plays arn't.. it's self. Sounds similir but trust me it's a whole diffrent kinda crazy.

>>6712019

Japanese article from 2006-12-27 says it sold over 100k. And that it's an incredible achievement for a doujin VN.

By the end of 2007 it jumped to over 500k. I wonder why?

>>6712071
>The most common theory for Shkanontrice before episode 7 proved that Shkanontrice works on a conscious control level with imaginary friends.

Huh? Shkanontrice before EP7 just meant multiple personalities. Imaginary friends =/= multiple personalities. Did you make a mistake in wording or something?

>>6712087
>Basically schizo but a bit more defined
No, common misconception, schizophrenia has nothing to do with multiple personalities.

>>6712071

No, it doesn't

And you can't be in love with three persons at the same time without did

>>6712087
>schizo
Typical Umineko fan.

>>6712048
>>6712050
I absolutely hate making choices when I play VNs. Don't try to dissuade me. I tried to play many different ones and ended in frustration and eventually quitting.

To go into more detail. Whenever I play, I invariably get several hours in and make a wrong choice. (Once, this made me panic and I instantly made another wrong choice that led to a bad end, right after I had suffered through the painfully tedious opening and was just getting into the game itself.) Yes, most good VNs have text skip, but that makes me lose the immersion I had playing it before.

I hate having to play things more than once in order to complete them. I hate having to look at a walkthrough to make sure I stay on the path I want to take. I also dislike full voice because I read faster than people talk and it slows things down for me.

Maybe I'm missing out, but Umineko fills a niche that I enjoy. Other than that, VNs aren't really my thing.

>>6712090
Anime popularity, of course.
And still, it sold more than umineko, before 2006.
And again, Higurashi had to be extremely popular to get an anime, since it isn't a commercial one.

>>6712087
>deluding it's self that these parts it plays arn't.. it's self

Eh...Yasu is perfectly aware that she has imaginary friends and she's perfectly aware that she's playacting as them. She even admits that it's a sad thing to do.

>>6712092
Did you make a mistake in reading what I said or something?

By episode 6, people got that Beatrice, Kanon and Shannon were all the same. However, the most common interpretation of that was multiple personalities, DID. Then episode 7 came along and showed that it wasn't multiple personalities, but imaginary friends, and so the term "DID" became inappropriate.

>>6712047
Ryukishi invoked Dine and Knox repeatedly, and yet he gets to obfuscate a well documented sickness into something impossible? herpaderpderp, you Seacatfags just love moving the goal posts back whenever he's called out on his shitty writing.

If he wants to make a real mystery, you need to follow some simple rules, more than what this story tells you. Despite all its faults, Higurashi's brain parasites crap worked because it wasn't something that already existed, he could create this fictional disease into whatever he wanted, then foreshadow it. With Umineko, he's taking a real disease, and making something happen that simply cannot, it's no more viable than saying that Tourette's is from a pissed off demon possessing you.

>>6712096
...Yasu isn't in love with three people at the same time though.

>>6712101
Then read forest, it's linear as long you follow the choices and it's probably half voiced (as every liar soft befor valusia)
Or try shikkoku sharnoth, it only has an annoying mini game.

>>6712113
Oh, alright. Sorry, the way you worded it was a bit confusing.

>>6712114
Except it's not DID at all, genius.

>>6712010
Yasu is not the true culprit, Beatrice is a scapegoat. She wrote 1-2 to hide the ugly truth, making herself the culprit. The rest were written by someone who didn't give a shit about protecting the truth, they follow the same heart but hint at what really happened strongly.

>>6712118
Forest has 2 endings you have to complete before getting the true end and some really difficult choices.
The main heroines are also fully voiced during the whole game, narration included when you get their POVs.

>>6712132
And next you are going to say she planned fake murders.
Go back to /a/, retard.

>>6712114
>he's taking a real disease, and making something happen that simply cannot
No, he's not.

You didn't read EP7 did you?

Yasu doesn't have DID, Jesus Christ.

>>6712137
Really?
Wjay happened to Liar soft after that with the voices?
God, they had already a cast.

>>6712087

It would be impossible to "talk" to another self or otherwise intact with it if you had true DID, right (like praising Shannon for being a good servant self)?

And if it isn't did, what does Yasu probably have?

>>6712107

Eh, only on occasion does she admit it. Sure, she knows it but she tries to not admit it.

>>6712098

Ok, ok, not schizo in the slightest.

Jeez there's no getting anything past you slueths.

>>6712142
You don't think the fake murder plan is viable at all?

Please. Next you'll start telling me that Yasu is a murderous slut.

I'd say go back to /jp/, but of course we're already in this hellhole.

It's not really clarified.
There are hints that Yasu's imaginary friends play has "evolved" in a DID starting the moment she became a "witch".

Especially the whole dividing soul is pretty telling.

>>6712167
No, it's pretty obvious Yasu knows full well she's playing the entire time.

>>6712161
>what does Yasu probably have?

Imaginary friends that have no bearing on the real world. Fiction, though? You betcha, but that's fine since they count as fantasy.

>>6712164

>>6712116
>...Yasu isn't in love with three people at the same time though.

Yes, he is

>>6712164
No, it's not viable at all, just think about it logically for like one minute and you'll realize how stupid it is.

It's just fucking retarded, grow a brain.

>>6712114
Let's assume that Yasu has multiple personalities. Yes, we know that isn't the case.

Now, who said Yasu has DID? Or rather, who said that Yasu has the textbook definition of DID, that is only based on observed trends? Who says R07 didn't make up another illness similar to DID that Yasu has? These kinds of disorders aren't stood well, disorders are constantly removed from official recognition, or merged together with other disorders, or written into existence, or split off from other disorders. So that argument doesn't work.

I have something to ask, in the bit where clair's guts are ripped open we get some last flashes of yasu/beato/whatvers heart.

How does she now that kinzo instigated the steal the gold strategy? I already assumed that since i knew that yamamoto guy was way too stupid, but does it mean that kinzo was lying about his backstory?

Also, why didn't she talk about the argument and her *wound* more?

>>6712167
>"evolved" in a DID starting the moment she became a "witch".

pic related.

Fiction =/= real world.

At this point I don't mind Ryukishi endlessly repeating things because it's true, a lot of people still don't get it.

>>6712157
I'll enjoy your tears in a few days.

>>6712167

You shouldn't take the fantasy scenes literally. By a 'divided soul' it just means that she can't decide between the 3 outcomes.
Also, I'm thinking that the way Kanon and Shannon can die in red text is by being 'denied'. Which means that Kanon died in Ep2 because Kanon told Jessica her real name (but not Yoshiya, her actual name). Thus, Kanon was denied.

Same for Ep6, only with Battler, since Battler seemed to be in on the whole thing and probably knew what was going on then.

It fits with what was shown in Ep4 (the Stakes and Sakutaro died when they were denied by the person that made them), and I'm pretty sure can be applied to every Episode.

>>6712161
>It would be impossible to "talk" to another self or otherwise intact with it if you had true DID, right?
No.

>>6712096
In anon's world, if you are torn between your feelings between two people, you obviously must have DID. Wow.

>>6712176
NOPE.exe.jpg.tiff.avi

Now you're just trolling, honestly.

>>6712181
Umineko is supposed to be SOLVABLE LOGICALLY. Not by intuition or random crap. Even Knox said it. So it have to be something that we can understand with OUT experience, without saying a stupid possibility with 50% of chance that it is something retarded.


>>Higurashi's brain parasites crap worked because it wasn't something that already existed, he could create this fictional disease into whatever he wanted, then foreshadow it. With Umineko, he's taking a real disease, and making something happen that simply cannot, it's no more viable than saying that Tourette's is from a pissed off demon possessing you.


Higurashi wasn't about brain parasites at all. It was about a mental disease. Read the novel.

>>6712184
The common theory seems to be that Kinzo wasn't lying, he was just showing his own perspective on the truth. That he either omitted that part, or he was so delusional that he painted over the memory.

How does she know Kinzo instigated that? She's a meta-character who embodies not only Yasu, but the tale. She knows all about every character.

>>6712177
>>6712175
Fake murders are fucking retarded? I guess Umineko is retarded as well because that's the answer.

Everything fits. If you can't accept this then have fun hating Umineko, I'll be over here enjoying it and not giving a fuck.

>>6712181
>Who says R07 didn't make up another illness similar to DID that Yasu has?

>That is to say, pseudo-science and purely imaginative and speculative devices are not to be tolerated in the roman policier.
Forbidden. But Umineko's not a mystery, so yeah.

>>6712206
Logically? Not by pure logic, that's for sure. If you wanted that, you'd use a calculator.

>>6712197
Yasu loves Battler and George. The whole reason she starts the game is because she can't choose between the two.

Is it really so hard to add Kanon to the mix?

>>6712206
Seems logically solvable to me to realize that one person is playing more than one part. You're the one freaking out and insisting there's made up diseases involved when there isn't because you got so butthurt about the very premise of DID you can't read the actual episode properly.

And are you seriously arguing about Higurashi's contrivance being better on the basis of being a made up regional mental disease as opposed to made up brain parasites?

>>6712216
>The whole reason she starts the game is because she can't choose between the two.

Not really, no.

>>6712213
>The detective novel must have a detective in it; and a detective is not a detective unless he detects. His function is to gather clues that will eventually lead to the person who did the dirty work in the first chapter; and if the detective does not reach his conclusions through an analysis of those clues, he has no more solved his problem than the schoolboy who gets his answer out of the back of the arithmetic.

Through pure logic, yes.

>>6712193
Yasu's real name is Sayo.

>>6712213
Pure logic doesn't only mean things like "2 and 2 = 4" when applied to this kind of things, y'know?
Knox 6th isn't here for nothing.

>>6712221
Actually, yea.

>>6712207

I dunno.. it just seems incredibly fishy. The *quaint* young innocent cowardly kinzo.. compared to the current one. I can easily see the current kinzo wanting the gold for himself and his new love and doing anything to get it, even massacaring all the japs and italians and making it look like it was their plan all along, thus the dud grenade.

>>6712228
No. Either you don't understand what I mean by "pure logic" or you're trying to say that by the arithmetic analogy, Dine is saying mysteries are solved by pure logic. In that case, I suppose you haven't heard of the fallacy of extending an analogy.

>>6712218
Actually, I am against Shkannon!friends but even more against Shkannon!DID which doesn't make sense at all.

Shkannon!friends is at least entertaining if umineko is not a mystery, which would be, to me, stupid because of Ryukishi's interviews.
But at least it is entertaining, not like Shkannon!DID which is pure crap.


>>
And are you seriously arguing about Higurashi's contrivance being better on the basis of being a made up regional mental disease as opposed to made up brain parasites?

By the way, not the anon from earlier. But "DID is okay because umineko is not a mystery"fags are the worst.

Yes it is. Again, read the goddamn novel, it makes more sense that brain parasites by far.

>>6712232
No, pure logic does mean things like 2 + 2 = 4. And it can't be applied to something like this.

I don't buy the fake murder theory.

From what I've seen it only has 2 pieces of information to support it.

1. Beatrice says she will return all lives lost.
2. Battler apologizing to Beatrice and wanting to protect her.

If there's more to it than that then enlighten me. Because as it stands, that's hardly evidence of anything.

To clarify, there's two versions of this theory

Yasu never killed anyone in EP1-4. She was only planning on a fake murder when someone started killing for real.

Yasu did kill in EP1-4 but in the EP7 tea party (the real world) she was lying about planning to kill everyone. She was only going to create a fake murder mystery.

I really don't get why so many people cling to either. Neither have significant evidence to back them up.

>>6712218
Actually, I am against Shkannon!friends but even more against Shkannon!DID which doesn't make sense at all.

Shkannon!friends is at least entertaining if umineko is not a mystery, which would be, to me, stupid because of Ryukishi's interviews.
But at least it is entertaining, not like Shkannon!DID which is pure crap.

By the way, not the anon from earlier. But "DID is okay because umineko is not a mystery"fags are the worst.

>>And are you seriously arguing about Higurashi's contrivance being better on the basis of being a made up regional mental disease as opposed to made up brain parasites?

Yes it is, even realistically. Again, read the goddamn novel, it makes more sense that brain parasites by far.

I don't get why Kanon exists at all on the gameboard if not for DID.

If Kanon only appeared in scenes that Battler wasn't narrating, then it'd be something. The whole perpetuation of Kanon during the conference just makes no sense. It doesn't particularly help Yasu or anyone else in their goals except to muddy up some closed room murders, but that doesn't quite fit with the way Kanon is introduced in Episode 7.

This is the big reason why people find Shkannontrice so hard to swallow.

If it was Shannontrice, or Shkanontrice with Kanon being YASU ALL ALONG, then maybe.

There is no real reason for Kanon to be there other than to be a convenient solution to one or two closed room murders. It adds a level of complication that's completely unnecessary. The benefit of Kanon adding to the mystery does not outweigh the effort Yasu would have to put into sustaining his existence, and risking being caught.

>>6712264
>Yasu did kill in EP1-4 but in the EP7 tea party (the real world) she was lying about planning to kill everyone. She was only going to create a fake murder mystery.
I haven't seen this particular iteration. I think the fake murder mystery idea is for the people who can't work their heads around the fiction idea. They think if Yasu killed in episode 1, then Yasu must be a murderer, so they say she was just faking it.

>>6712269
Kanon exists as a hint to Beatrice's gender problem.

>>6712253
If it was the case, logic could not be applied to anything in real life, so you fail. It can be applied.
It's the way you are seeing logic which is damn limited.

>>6712264
The other large basis is the setup in EP5 and EP6, which have obviously Yasu-involved or Yasu-coordinated fake epitaph murders, and then get hijacked by a real killer who isn't Yasu.

>>6712269
even with DID, Kanon's existence is not really the most convincing thing in the whole story. Ep7 is very unclear, or retarded, on this point.

>>6712269
Kanon exists in fiction to highlight the gender identity problem Yasu has.

>>6712264

It mostly comes from eps 5-6.

Both cases, missing "dead" bodies.

Thats it. I was a major purpotrator of this theory but even now i can't support it fully.

Also, ep 2, ep 3 and ep 4 can be displayed as fake murders gone wrong due to the gold being found.

Think for a moment, if you will, why BOTH the first 2 BREAKDOWN games had bodies that were meant to be dead moving about? Batteler found the truth out and that's why he was easily accepting the GM mantle because he knew he didn't have to kill anyone at all.

I dunno it has a charm to it, y'know?

It goes with the game feeling of it all.

But you're right, it probably is bollocks, but i can dream and hope can't i?

>>6712269
1. A hint about Yasu's gender identity
2. To have Shannon seem innocent while all the blame falls onto Kanon. For example, in episode 1, the culprit is so obviously Kanon towards the end it isn't funny. It was so obvious, people tried to use other whacky theories to explain the murders there because they thought it was so obvious it couldn't be true.
3. To make people less suspicious that Shannon is Beatrice. They'll think Kanon is, but they might have problems with that since Kanon is male, so they might discount their own reasoning.

>>6712269
I hope you're not one of those people who uses "I don't even understand why Kanon exists on the gameboard" to push in the "Kanon isn't actually a part of Yasu" direction.

There are some people who are just so desperate on that detail.

>>6712303
>>that detail.

What.
The very fact that you are calling it a detail show that your objectivity is next to none.

>>6712292
In EP3, an episode we KNOW was hijacked.

The letters stop appearing and the deaths become ordinary. No closed room mysteries.

Yasu is the one fascinated by closed room murders. If there's a murder with a letter or trick involved then it's gotta be Yasu.

>>6712272
>I think the fake murder mystery idea is for the people who can't work their heads around the fiction idea.
It's the opposite, really. It was all fiction and in the fiction Yasu was the culprit. But it was fiction made to cover an actual truth.

Yasu planned to "spin" the roulette by having a "fake murder party", setting a time limit with the bomb, like Kinzo used to do. She arranged for Ange to stay home, she was too young and might get too scared. But the adults ended up killing each other, Yasu covered up the truth, so Ange wouldn't have to suffer from it, she created the catbox. Eva locked it by not revealing what really happened.

Fake murders are hinted very strongly at episodes 5 and 6. 6 outright points them out and it's a "confession".

>>6712269
Since Shannon and Kanon are both presented as people, Yasu can fake death as one and then steer or manipulate events as the other. It's basically a tactic to make the mystery harder. Like Kinzo's death. In a story sense, Kanon does have a place. Yasu already has a plethora of imaginary friends, adding Kanon to the mix as someone who interacts with Kanon (likely with Jessica's full knowledge) isn't very far-fetched.

>>6712315
There are also fake murder hints in EP4 and, retroactively, in EP3. I guess Hachijo might have figured that out along with all the other ridiculous shit she also must have gotten from a source other than the message bottles themselves.

>>6712315
You can argue that 5 and 6 support it because they have fake deaths but you need evidence from 1-4 too. 5 and 6 having fake deaths is not evidence that 1-4 did.

>>6712312
Often the defense of people with crack theories they made in desperation. The fact of the matter is if they were capable of looking at it objectively without their wishes for the characters in mind, they would discount all their grasping at straws.

Some people just really love Kanon and for that reason accept him being part of Yasu. They won't back down until they have absolute proof against them. And even if they did, they'd try to weasel out of it if they could.

>>6712344
>YASU = KANON = SHANNON = BEATRICE = FACT AND IF YOU DISAGREE YOU ARE AS DELUSIONAL AS YASU, THIS IS UNDENIABLE I KNOW EVERYTHING
That's you. That's what you sound like.

>>6712341
The plans for something like a fake murder plot have been accumulating since EP3, and arguably since EP2 (with the scene of the parents making some kind of agreement with Beatrice because of the influence of the gold before things start). EP3 is a little unclear until you look back at it after EP6. (EP6 tells us that the fact that the victims all "died" in comfortable spots was a clear hint that they were faked; in the EP3 servant deaths, you had stuff like Kumasawa parked in her "favorite napping place", and similar. The only people who weren't stationed in comfortable places were Kinzo and Kanon, both for obvious reasons.)

EP4, though, explicitly had Kumasawa and Gohda dicking around with faking their own epitaph deaths until someone shot them for real. EP5 and EP6 kept things coming more and more strongly.

>>6711739
Get out

>>6712364
Sounds better than the people who ignore blatant facts despite the mountains of evidence against them, I think.

>>6712341
1-4 didn't have too. The point of the tales was to hide the truth, not tell it. The culprit was Yasu. AuAu inserted hints though, she didn't give a shit. She wanted someone else to find the truth. She also talked with Eva, Ep7 Tea Party is what she told AuAu, her account of the events is clouded with hate though. And the scenes without Eva in them are fiction, Kyrie saying "How are you enjoying it, everyone?" or something like that to the rain pretty much proves it's fiction.

"This is all truth-as far as Eva can tell."

>>6712364
It's prety much the whole umineko fanbase since ep6. Sad thing, I miss the old times with theory wars.

>>6712400
Apparently some people still do not understand what a "possibility" is.

>>6712405
You're the same guy pushing your pet theory in every thread.

I'll admit it's not bad.

>>6712413
You just admitted it yourself.
>They won't back down until they have absolute proof against them. And even if they did, they'd try to weasel out of it if they could.
You won't back down as long as there's a "possibility." Doesn't matter to you how slim that possibility is, as long as there's room for you to deny the obvious. Unfortunately, R07 is not one to give answers straight, so you might still have that possibility of yours even after episode 8.

>>6712415
Yes, I'm probably the same guy, I'm not sure anyone else likes the theory, and I do get called a retard a lot.

I really believe in it, though.

>>6712427
Soory but no, there is still other ways than a MAGICALDIDLOL or magical friends, and it is not only a "slim" chance. but if you want to ignore it, it's your choice. Just stop being so arrogant, it's really, really annoying.

By the way, I am saying that MAGICALFRIENDS are a possibility among others. I'm okay with it, but if I wanted to read something without having to think at all about what is possible, I would probably read something way better than umineko.
And there is still a chance that magicalfriendslol is wrong, even after ep8. your point? It's the point of the whole catbox thing, and why umineko is a game and not a book.

>>6712428
On the one hand, I think it paints Yasu as too innocent despite all he/she has been through, but on the other, Yasu is always being depicted tragically anyway. The tea party could work as Eva's truth. When Ange asks Eva for the truth, Eva just tells her to give up and die. That's what the little act starts with, which someone (I assume you) pointed out in a previous thread.

>>6712428
It makes sense, so don't discard your theory until EP8 is out.

>>6712447
Umineko isn't a game. Even if it was, I don't see how that would have anything to do with it.

I'm not retarded, so I'll ignore your minuscule "chances." You're really only seeing them because you don't want Kanon to be the same person. Really, really badly. You're a sore loser left over from episode 6. You can have fun not comprehending the story, I suppose.

>>6712460
>>Umineko isn't a game. Even if it was, I don't see how that would have anything to do with it.


Go on and say this to Ryukishi. Go.
And it have something to do with it, you are supposed to be an active reader. If you are not, at least stop being arrogant toward them.

>>I'm not retarded, so I'll ignore your minuscule "chances." You're really only seeing them because you don't want Kanon to be the same person. Really, really badly. You're a sore loser left over from episode 6. You can have fun not comprehending the story, I suppose.

I probably understand ep6 and Shkannontrice better than you, retard, thanks. But apparently you missed about half of what the game is saying about what the catbox and "the truth" is, among other things.

(By the way my personal theory is also based on ome kind of Shkannon. Just not on a magical friends story or a DID. So you failed.)

>>6712471
Oh, you mean thought game? In that case, I agree.

>I probably understand ep6 and Shkannontrice better than you, retard, thanks. But apparently you missed about half of what the game is saying about what the catbox and "the truth" is, among other things.
I doubt that. I'll be you were ferociously attacking Shkanontrice right up to the moment episode 7 came out.

There is only one truth, even R07 himself would acknowledge that. Yes, you can say anything you like until the cat box is opened. However, if you came up with something completely retarded and defended it as a "possibility", simply because we don't know all the facts yet, I don't think anyone would take you seriously. Which is exactly what's happening in this case.

>>6712449
>>6712459
I'm happy to see someone thinks it's at least plausible. I also think it explains why EVA-Beatrice is such a bitch. Beatrice is the guardian of the truth of Rokkenjima, Eva was the sole survivor so the title falls upon her. But she only knows the gruesome and cruel side of the story, she is also filled with hate and ressentment for the death of her family; and that is reflected on EVA.

>(By the way my personal theory is also based on ome kind of Shkannon. Just not on a magical friends story or a DID. So you failed.)
You can keep the credit for your retardation, I don't mind. You'll hopefully see you're wrong in a day. That, or you'll keep clinging onto the chance you were right for all time.

You can pretty much tell what your posts in this thread are by searching "Shkannon" or "Shkanonntrice", so I already know what your theory is.

The more I hear about it, the more I like the idea of the "Fake Murder Party". It fits since that's what Episode 6 was, where Battler was meant to show he understood the truth. It was all a tragic misunderstanding.

The Tea Party being Eva's "truth" is so perfect too. It explains why everything seems so biased and surreal. Though that said, it does paint Eva in a pretty bad light at the beginning. If the Eva Batman thing had been true, it would have been perfect.

>>6711970
This, I think, is one of the biggest problems people have with Umineko. After all that, even if every episode had clues towards what really happened, the outcomes were essentially as displayed - 'Beatrice' (Yasu) did it, just not with magic. Remember that "magic can only take what you do with your own hands and rewrite it"; so Yasu killed everyone and then 'rewrote' the circumstances as 'magic'. But in the end, the culprit we were actually shown and could deduce as 'she's the one who did it' in the previous episodes is not the REAL culprit.

I like it on one level, but it pisses me off on another.

>>6712524
Even if it's from Eva, it's still Eva's "truth". In other words, Eva actually believes it. She's not so gone that she'll paint herself as a hero. She does downplay what she did, but it's a kind of bias she built up and she actually remembers it that way.

>>6712495
We're okay on the thought game.
And for the second part yes, retarded theories have to be throwed away, it's normal. The main problem is that half of the umineko fanbase is not even listening anymore and is saying that any other theory is retarded BEFORE hearing it. Shkannon doesn't bother me, but half of the people following it does.

>>You can pretty much tell what your posts in this thread are by searching "Shkannon" or "Shkanonntrice", so I already know what your theory is.

Nah, sorry, not this anon at all, and nothing in common at all, I just squeezed in the conversation.

>>6712547
Then what's your theory?

>>6712533
I'm imagining Eva sitting down and writing this now. It's pretty funny. But if it's Eva's truth, then why is George depicted so pathetically?

>>6712562
Eva could never stand George being independent anyway.

>>6712533
Just like Kinzo and the killing Italians shenanigans.

>>6712562
She didn't see it, that part is complete fiction. She only knows what Rudolf told her and saw his body in the bushes. A mother always sees her son as fragile and dependant.

>>6712576
Okay, so why does she depict Rudolf as so reluctant? He killed George, I'm sure she'd hate the life out of him. The tea party even has the part about Battler really being Kyrie's son hinted at.

>>6712586
Eva places a lot of value in parenthood, Kyrie probably really did say those things about Ange to her, and it left a huge impression. Rudolf didn't say those things, and Eva knew that he was trying to make up with Battler for a long time. Plus, he's her brother. Even if all the siblings are rotten, she probably didn't hate him as much as Kyrie.

>>6712586
Rudolf is her brother, she loved him all her life. And he is still depicted as merciless even though a bit reluctant. Ange and Battler looking alike, including hair color, probably stired some dust amongst the family, they might even all suspect it.

>>6712604
>they might even all suspect it.
They probably do but don't even give a shit - he's irrelevant with the inheritance. It's like with Kinzo, Eva and the others were pretty certain he was already dead and just told Natsuhi to stop pretending already right away.

It's funny how the discussion becomes way more interesting once the bump limit is reached.

Well, most think Ep7 isn't the complete truth. I assume. Many say it's Bern's loveless idea of the truth and think episode 8 will paint it "with love." If this is Eva's truth, rather than Bern's, it does make sense. Battler's promise that there are no bad people seems a pretty big challenge though. I wonder how it'll go down.

>>6712555
You'll say that it is easy to say, but too tired to write everything right now, it's pretty long.
Basically, a Shkannontrice but more based on the man from 19 years ago and Lion's sex for Beatrice, the fact that Yasu is a "anonymous pawn" during the complete ep7 (which is REALLY not used enough for me) and mainly the catbox idea from ep7. I'll see to detail it if it is not destroyed by ep8, but I'm rather confident.
Not here to defend it for the moment anyway, I still have an huge plot hole with Kanon's or Shannon's appearance. I was merely quoting it to show that no, I'm not against the magical DID because I want Kanon to have a body.

Another theory which is not bad, but not mine this time, is about Kanon and Shannon not existing and being "plot devices", but it's also complicated to explain. It's somewhere on animesuki on requiem's thread.

>>6712638
>I was merely quoting it to show that no, I'm not against the magical DID because I want Kanon to have a body.
Again, not DID. And I think by definition you are. The usual idea is that Kanon is just an invention of Yasu - episode 7 shows this, all previous episodes hint that Shannon and Kanon are the same person.

So you're against that conventional idea in some way. Whether it be Kanon having his own body but Shannon also having Kanon as an imaginary friend, or both of them having imaginary friends, or whatever, if you have Kanon with his own personal body you're deviating from that. It's just that nobody can deny that Yasu is Beatrice and Shannon anymore, so they have to be for imaginary friends in some way.

>>6712638
>animesuki
Welp.

>>6712689
Saging in a 380 post thread?

>>6712692
I leave sage in the field by default.