/jp/ - Otaku Culture

and that is why the western fans like marisa better... but, eastern fans like to PAIR Reimu... to add that nice concept fans like so much... bastardization.

have some Chen

Now I like characters who play the hero/heroine lead character who don't give much of damn about their duties, it gives them some originality and makes them more interesting than the usual stereotype since I don't know how the ''laziness'' and ''hard work'' aspects are measured in a wacko place like Gensokyo's standards, so much that the vision we have of something is completely redundant in that place/ZUN's mind.

But Reimu just gives me a headache whenever the whole 'character X is better than Y because Z' since usually the reason given is taken from fandom or misunderstanding or just sheer asshole-ness. Playing through the games and especially reading the mangas gives me this understanding: If she's in ''Incident Mode'' she will annihilate anything in her intuition's path until 'Final Stage Clear' appears and being generally non-talkative. While her ''Peace Mode'', that is, when she's at her shrine drinking tea, she's COMPLETELY different from when she battles, it's like two stereotype angel-devil aides get into her soul depending on whether she's solving an Incident or not (also if it involves her shrine).

In ''peace mode'', she's, like, a goddess of calmitude (?), she's nicer and all the final bosses instantly become her friends, something about her manual description in some games said that every youkai liked her for some trait she had but this still dazzles me. On one hand you have the lazy, psychotic, dutiful Terminator, while on the other you have a normal girl with rather odd-traited friends like Marisa, Yukari, Suika, etc. (in the good way). What I mean by this is that she's a fucking complexity of a character when you think about it that, well, uh, fuck it, touhou is batshit senseless and any bit of straight fact-gathering (eg: I like this character because of X) is completely bsed by ZUN (who said that Touhou's story was an utter joke by the way) everytime he bloody gets, he possibly doesn't even remember what he did last game, and I love him and Touhou for it.

tl;dr: Reimu is a love-hate scenario when you think of it this way, also touhou is 'un-doable'.

Westerners like Marisa more? Really?

>>6663849
well. i like marisa more.

>>6663869
me too

>>6663830
So she's autistic?

>>6663800

"Then, in UFO, she, well, snaps."

Duh

She's afraid of heights

>>6663883
I'd say she's more of a natural pacifist who doesn't like the constant annoyance of mischievous people and hates having to go everytime in such a short period of time inbetween.

Reimu's been going through lifethreatening incidents from 1-4. Five onwards it's still a chore, but there's been NO REWARD FOR UNENDING LABOUR.

It's no surprise the one time she decides to try to succeed in winning the treasure ship lottery and finds out her hard work beating down youkai is utterly wasted she gets slightly ticked off.

She really is that poor. Have you know what it's like to go hungry because you're too busy beating up youkai to grow your own crops? And having to go around the village to ask for offerings of food, to people who are already pretty much subsistence farming?

>>6663911
Well she does parties from time to time and has a yet-unrevealed infinite tea-gourd, she's a bit more relaxed in people-filled tea-parties but according to PMiSS she prefers parties being somewhere else (SDM) since she then has to clean everything up.

Reimu > Flatrisa

>>6663824
>>6663869
>>6663871
You have shit taste in Touhous if you think Marisa is good at all.

>>6663945
Take it easy, anon!

>>6663945
>>6663944
Please, don't.

>>6663965
>>6663967
You're both probably horrible people anyhow.

>>6663986
Just because you are horrible doesn't means that you can't take it easy.

>>6663945
But she's a genius of hard work, ze!

The Western fandom thinks about canon too much.

>>6663990
Go die somewhere easy.
>>6663992
If by 'hard work' you mean 'brutal thieving', sure.

>>6663849

No. The Western fandom is a gaggle of retards that want Mima and Sakuya to be relevant again before they give two fucks about any other character that's been a "main" character at any point.

Unless they can get Aya x Sanae porn. This is an acceptable use of main characters.

>>6664069
>want [character] to be relevant again
That's what fanfiction is for. They should write more.

>>6664069
What are you, their spokesperson?

>>6664074
Who isn't? I'm the spokesperson.

>>6664074

I'm someone that's observed them fairly heavily for several years with his tongue in his cheek the whole time.

>>6664089
I don't remember voting for you.

>>6664091
I don't actually care.

>>6664072
That's what phantasmagorias are for. ZUN should make more.

>>6664100

Guess what TH13's gonna be!

>>6664115
13 is unlucky in some cultures. Black cats are also unlucky in some cultures. From this, I predict TH13 will star Orin.

>>6664119
>Black cat
>Not Chen

>>6664091
I still think you're that shrinemaiden admin

Sanae>Reimu>Marisa>Sakuya

>>6664127
>not Chen

Well, that's how unlucky she was.

>>6664136
Hmm. What if she were to come in contact with Tewi? Would it be like matter and antimatter?

Sanae has the best theme. That makes her the best character.

>>6664146
shaddap' yo.

>>6664146
Anyone got that wall of Hina vs car made of Tewi image?

>>6664151
I beg to differ.

Isn't it sad, Reimu?

But seriously, if you were the poorest person in the entire area of Gensokyo for as long as you were self-aware, wouldn't you jump at the chance to nab a giant amount of treasure?

Why's Reimu the one that usually gets depicted to take care of yukkuris in fandom? Not that I'm complaining, just asking.

Damn you, Danbooru.

>>6664161
This one?

So maybe it's just me, but was it said that ReimuA was the only personality for her? When I was playing ReimuB, she seemed pretty chill about things like she typically is. Baddies show up, she does her whole begrudging investigation but is preemptive about it like the good miko she is.

Dunno man, guess it's just however you wanna see it.

>>6667472
IIRC none of the girl's ending is canon in UFO, if you see the Extra stage backstory you'll see that there's chunks of each character's ending in it, i.e: they all went together. So what you have to do is picture any doujin where these 3 save the day with as much lols as possible.

>>6667510
Got it!

>>6667510
>>6667545
>they all went together
>these 3 save the day
>teamwork in Gensokyo
Sauce? This is relevant to my interests.

>>6663826
>>6663800
>>6663830
Reimu's personality has always been a lazy uncaring miko who is a bitch to friends and foe and human and youkai alike. UFO's personality is no worse than hers in the early games.

>>6667600
I can't, I fear ZUN's rage.

Lurk on Touhouwiki's UFO article.

>>6667600
There isn't much teamwork to be had... but source is filename.

>>6667611
Well it's about time the haters arrived.

Touhou 1: Reimu goes on a genocidal rampage.
Touhou 2: Reimu seeks revenge for Mima's revenge for Reimu's previous rampage.
Touhou 3: Reimu interferes with academia and scientific progress.
Touhou 4: Reimu kills a youkai who tried to help her.
Touhou 5: Reimu orphans Alice and destroys an entire world for its creator's belief in free enterprise.
Touhou 6: Reimu places a little girl under house arrest.
Touhou 7: Reimu prevents an innocent girl from being revived.
CoLA: Reimu mugs a youkai for reading.
Touhou 7.5: Reimu breaks up parties.
Touhou 8: Reimu strips away Gensokyo's defenses against a Lunar invasion.
Touhou 9: Reimu attacks people for no good reason.
Touhou 9.5: Reimu becomes an undead zombie.
Touhou 10: Reimu oppresses other religions.
Touhou 10.5: Reimu endorses slave labor.
Touhou 11: Reimu cuts back funding for alternative energy sources.
Touhou 12: Reimu persecutes Youkai Jesus.

>>6667645
I swear this is the zillionth time I see this pasta, and people don't realize the original desu guy did it as a fucking joke (see SA).

>>6667658
And every time it gets reposted as a joke.

I don't see the problem.

>>6667663
Well I mean in other places, mostly in TVTropes and most touhou boards.

>>6667707
Taking this seriously is a measure of autistry, not rank stupidity, and in that department /jp/ has TVTropes and Shrinemaiden beaten cold.

I'm not a fan of Reimu, but it's not really for any nit-picky analysis of game dialogue or Freudian personality armchair psychology. I actually have quite a thing for mikos and like that the protagonist is one.

I don't care for Reimu, especially in opposition to Marisa, because she's lazy.

When I just started getting into Touhou with EoSD, I read all the character profiles. Relevant to Marisa and Reimu: Reimu has ridicu-mond-ultima-crazy-mendous power level because she's the Hakurei Miko of Paradise, but she doesn't like to train. Marisa is just an ordinary witch who has to work as hard as she can just to keep up with Reimu.

If she cared to get off her tea-sipping hakama-clad ass and train once in a while, how powerful could she be? How much more stable could Gensokyo be?
Stopping Kaguya, raining on Remilia's parade, knocking out a ghost somehow, ceasing nuclear proliferation... she didn't really care for that. It's a bother to her to use her strength. She just wants to sip tea, sweep, and accept donations until the day she dies. What a waste. And she blows away all the "villains"? How much interest do you take in a hero or heroine for whom victory is effortless?

How does Marisa meet the challenge? Gathering magical mushrooms daily and cooking them, daily training, adoption and adaptation and improvement (Arthur's Round Table, anyone?) of observed magical spells, research in gathered tomes and devices gathered from various sources, and high doses of LSD. And she still has time to pester Reimu, Alice, the SDM, and presumably Nitori.

One works hard for her success, solving problems and overcoming obstacles while still being a thief with a heart of gold or at least breasts.
One lives off the nanny state and is lauded praise for achieving what was/(could have been) effortless.

Who am I more interested in? Pimp hat.

>>6667735
Gensokyo owes its stability to gap bitch. All Reimu has to do is provide the pulse and accept her arranged dickings if she isn't proactive enough to find her own.

>>6667735
They're both just kids though. There's something fundamentally wrong with a kid who wants to pick mushrooms and steal from people, instead of have tea parties and play all day.

>>6667773
They're teenagers. And Marisa did want to play all day until her abusive father kicked her out or whatever happened there. Then she lived in the forest and played danmaku.

>>6667773
Nobody acts their age in Gensokyo.

>>6667735
As OP mentioned, there's no way to measure how is the effort aspect measured in Gensokyo/ZUN's mind, and although Marisa is to be respected, I just see sheer aggresion and repel from Reimu since Marisa hasn't been mentioned in this thread at all, much less dissed. I've seen that backup endlessly and from what I gather, Marisa isn't a ''saint of effort'', she does gather mushrooms and does experiments, but you have to atribute most of that to her easy-go stealing, which if you want to call a honorable way of effort then go ahead, I prefer to avoid dissing but facts sometimes turn out that way.

Anyhow, note that from EoSD and onwards there's no real ''power'', it's just danmaku dodging skills, the only real catastrophe was Utsuho's, and in Reimu's dialogue against her she does start to worry, by the way. She gets angrier from game to game, and most of her dissing by fans comes from comparisons to Marisa herself, since she's the other main character and prefencial debates are inevitable.

>>6667735
Eergh, I don't like when Touhous are given priorities that aren't real and are just taken out of the fan's assumptions. And this coming from a guy who likes Marisa's character.

>>6667777
>They're teenagers
fanon

I don't like Reimu because she's racis', and she's not even cute.
Marisa is okay, she's still racis', but she's at least kind of cute.

>>6667799
I want to take you seriously, but I just can't picture anyone that uses dissing that many times in a small paragraph as anything other than a kid.

>>6667849
Now you're just getting retarded.

>>6667799
>>6667822
I'll make it simple, doubles.

According to ZUN-created character profiles, Reimu has huge amounts of power inherited from her status but doesn't care to train it at all;
Marisa does not have immense power, but instead must work for it.
On that alone, Marisa is the more interesting of the two. That a majority of Marisa's power is dependent on thievery is a fan interpretation that exaggerates a practice that would have rapidly diminishing returns if looked at practically.

>>6667863
I see one per paragraph.

Marisa doesn't belive in copyrights.
Marisa doesn't believe in stealing.

She borrows. You can get your damn books back when I'm dead.

>>6667895
>[character] is the more interesting of the two

Why the hell are you using this troll line.

They're both young women who are being selfish teenagers, occasionally going out to quell issues because of duty, personal interest, or both.

Thread over.

I can see preferences of one Touhou over another, hell you can have your entire pixiv filled with one sole character's and it's all cool. But I don't see the need in having to prove that your character is superior than the other in order to make your character better, it just creates conflict. Any Touhou can like each other since grudges are a rare thing in Gensokyo (the exception would be Kaguya and Mokou) whatever the other could have done. Even ZUN said that no matter how intense the pre-dialogue between characters is, in every single danmaku battle, both girls are fighting in a relaxed way, they both know it's a bloody minor test of skill, even after the battle.

>>6667970
>the exception would be Kaguya and Mokou

>>6667970

>>6667970
Komachi is super buttmad about Tenchi because she won't die, even if she kills her.

Make love, not danmaku.

>>6667986
No, it's more than Tenshi won't die, because she beat the fuck out of Death. Repeatedly.

>>6667986
SWR says that celestials won't die because they keep kicking the shit out of every shinigami that comes after them, Komachi just danmaku'd her.

>>6663945
>You have shit taste in Touhous if you think Marisa is good at all.

Oh look, a touhoufag accusing another touhoufag of having shit taste.

>>6668022
You shut your mouth, nigga.

Can't we all get along.

>>6668022
Please ignore the trolls.

It's best for people to keep their thoughts to themselves if it's to bash a Touhou in favour of his/her Touhou, such argument wasn't neccessary.

Buncha butthurt Marisafriends up in this bitch.

>>6667932
>You can get your damn books back when I'm dead.

Marisa researches immortality potions.

Looks like, in addition to being a thief, she's also a scammer.

OP, was going to give you a long explanation, but realized this is probably going to be ignored anyway.

The short of it is that I think you are taking in-game dialog too literally. Reimu is very rarely actually mad in ANY canon work. Period. Her basic character description would be "Carefree, unless she's solving an incident", which has been very consistent. You know, unless someone destroys her shrine. If you perceive that as "inconsistent", then I'm afraid you have a tenuous grasp of how humans behave.

Also, do try to remember that everything you see in the games is pre/post battle trash talk and the battles themselves are mock battles where no one gets seriously hurt or killed. Not really much to go on in determining how characters would react to actual situations. Try reading the stories instead, there's a lot more character exploration there.

>>6663945
Wow, that is one hell of a troll, to just say that Marisa sucks.

My opinion Lies with both, because simply they wok perfectly together

>>6669131
yeah basically this

this thread made me laugh. I can't say I'm a huge fan of either as I'm obviously a Cirno fan. Actually I don't spend much time thinking about Cirno though, after all she's a pretty simple character. She's just plain likable and easy to relate to.

I really have a hard time picking between Reimu and Marisa. They both do things that annoy me. I dislike Reimu's attitude and I dislike Marisa since to me she seems to do a lot of posturing/acting out. I hate that.

>>6669131
>Reimu is very rarely actually mad in ANY canon work.

I'm pretty sure Fairies tell a different tale.

Except that the only examples we ever see of her punishing the fairies are incredibly minor. See the scene where they try to scare her and she just boots em and moves on without even batting an eye.

In Gensokyo, when youkai (or fairies) annoy the shrine maiden, they receive swift punishment and then everyone moves on. Its like when a dog misbehaves. You slap it with a newspaper and go "no, bad!", then a couple minutes later you go back to petting it.

Yes, I just compared youkai to dogs. That just happened.

>>6669419
That only applies to fairies. Since they've got such terrible memories.

>>6669131
OP here, to be honest, I was just writing down notes the same way I'd be if I were stalking a person. What I mean by ''snaps'' is that, pre-UFO, she used to be less noisy (I know she's carefree and all) and more ask-questions-first-shoot-later. Though I didn't get much into it as the reason is clearly the fact that she thinks there could finally be a bit of a help in her financial status and there are youkais obsessed with these random UFO pickups she's finding, which get them in the mood to fight her.

Now I know that Reimu's poverty is mostly used in fanon jokes ever since she uttered it in IaMP, but it could be something related to fix her shrine damages after SWR according to the wiki. Note that Reimu B isn't concerned about it and neither is she in the mangas (although she lamented her loss of gold in the Ibara Kasen story).

I know that Reimu's usually calm, I just made the post because I wanted to be clear about both of her attitudes in terms of noisiness and treating-of-others, to which I'll just let ZUN continue and hopefully keep Reimu the way she is.

>>6669785

I kinda find it funny how in pretty much all official descriptions of fairies, they are described as being not exactly the brightest of folk. Yet in all of the 3 Fairies manga series, they are actually pretty fucking smart, at least above average intelligence compared to people in OUR world. I remember reading one the other day, and one of them (Was it Lunachild? Or maybe it was Sunny Milk) makes a joke about fractals, of all things.

You know, for a land that shunned science, a lot of people there seem to be pretty well acquainted with it.

>I was just writing down notes the same way I'd be if I were stalking a person.
Creeeeeepy.

>>6669825

I was a bit harsh about it anyway, so it's all cool.

Also, the greed thing isn't completely unfounded either, since it comes up multiple times in WaHH (is anyone else getting a bit sick of coming up with new abbreviations for these things?). Afterall, she does plot to scam people with the Kappa arm. But who can blame her, considering that her shrine gets no worshipers, despite her being at least partially responsible for gensokyo not being a cannibalistic hell hole anymore.

I just think that fandom tends to flanderize characters too much, and thats where the root of most our problems comes from. Reimu is mean and greedy, Marisa is a bitch thief and a womanizer, Sakuya goes beyond being a sociopath and into the territory of being homicidal, Cirno is completely retarded, Alice is a creepy tsundere/yandere stalker, etc etc etc. These things plague not only the western fandom, but even the Japanese fandom is rifle with this stuff.

Sure, there are aspects of their personalities that are at least partially based on actual canon, but the characters are at least a bit better developed than being completely one dimensional. Unfortunately when having these debates, most people are arguing for/against a bizarro version of a character they have cooked up in their minds that doesn't necessarily match up to anything that actually ever happened.

> Continuing from
>>6669885

I can't completely blame people for doing this since Touhou is unique in the fact that character development isn't concentrated in any one place. You have to read EVERYTHING to get a good feel for the characters, and that is a rather tall order considering that some of it isn't even translated yet. But most people just push this way past the limit of common sense. The "Reimu is a bitch" thing is by far the worst offender though, considering she's actually probably one of the nicer (if occasionally temperamental, but hey who isn't?) people we've been shown. Marisa is also a lot more even headed than fans give her credit for, especially in the print works.

Hell, there are so many things in the endings that people just plain don't know because they never beat the games. I remember getting the Reimu and Marisa endings in EoSD and being like "Wait, wtf? Sakuya just lets Marisa in and tries to hide her from Remilia?! Why the hell do they make Sakuya out to be murderous bitch to Marisa then? God dammit, this is WAY more interesting than that bullshit they told me". After that I never listened to a god damned thing fans have ever said and decided to form my own opinions.

I sometimes think that we should put together a good introduction to the series and descriptive character profiles based ENTIRELY on canon (instead of conjecture), just to help mitigate the deluge of people that are relatively new and flood the boards with misinformation and stupid questions. I would say we already have the wiki for that, but I think that might be a bit too much for some people to wrap their heads around. Maybe a "Top 100 things fans think about Touhou that are complete bullshit", along with proof.

Damn, I think I rambled on a bit there. Sorry 'bout that.

>>6669890
OP here, I'm glad you posted this, it makes me a bit more sure about my vision of Touhou and I do agree with what you said, it's quite true that flanderization in Touhou is taken to the extreme, but the thing is, in the eastern fandom this is mostly used as a subtle matter of humour and when there's some video that resembles Touhou 3D Dogfight's style then the crowd will cheer for battle instead of humour, which in most of the western fandom they just suck up the fanon way more than canon to their preferences.

This is an example: You know that SOUNDHOLIC video where Reimu controls the Tokyo Big Zam against Sanae's mecha? You know what the people in the western fandom complained about? I shit you not: the fact that Utsuho was wearing a labcoat. If people actually read the games' dialogue they'd know that Utsuho is guillible instead of Cirno-ish, and she's Gensokyo's top in terms of chemistry and physics (not to mention the fact that she did contribute to Hisoutensoku's management in canon). With this and many other examples that I've seen I get my teeth cracking when fanon gets over canon in general.

While the Touhou fandom as a whole could use more canon, /jp/ needs far, far less.

>>6669958
Hahahaha this post. You're pulling things out of your ass and claiming you're the one that loves canon.

>>6669958

Yeah. I couldn't really give a shit if people change a fact or whatever to suit their creation. Thats fine with me as long as it doesn't get saturated to the point where it overshadows how a character actually is. The problem is the constant "x character is better than x", "x is such a huge bitch", powerlevel threads (Yes, because we totally need to discuss that kind of stuff in a series where all conflict is settled by fucking playfighting), and so on. It would be nice to occasionally get a decent thread that actually discusses something worth discussing.

>>6669968

I kinda see what you are getting at there. I just think /jp/ needs less situations where we even have to talk about this shit. Its not fun having loading up /jp/ and finding 2 "rudest touhou" threads, a power level thread, a "why Reimu sucks" thread, the obligatory 3+ Cirno threads that even Cirno fans hate, and so on. I like this board and all, but finding a thread worth participating in is few and far in between.

>>6669997
I wish I was reading your imaginary shitty /jp/. It sounds nice compared to the reality.

>>6669997
Most of the time I can't talk about a character in whatever board I'm in without being bombarded by fanon, I don't mind people using it and making fanart of it, but it's enough when every single thing becomes fanon and every convo is turned into a joke. And about the character insults, it's something like this most the time: it's either a)I like X because Y sucks. Or b)X sucks because she's a bitch and obscures my beloved Y. That's the way I've seen it most of the time and the whole community can go down to just that.

>>6670007

I see a couple of those right now, but I was more referring to the average I tend to see. Obviously it isn't going to be like that every time, silly.

But yes, today is looking rather bleak. Anyone have any suggestions?

>>6670024
Keep talking in this thread?

I don't get this whole "baaaw fanon is overshadowing canon" thing you have going. If canon was really that great, fanon depictions would follow it more closely. Simple as that. As it is, we have more variety, which gives life to the fandom and lets people that wouldn't otherwise like Touhou enjoy it.

>>6670049

So your argument is "Changing for mass appeal at the expense of the original" is good? Uhh...what?

But like I said, it isn't even fanworks that I dislike. I *like* fanworks. I just don't like all the character bashing threads thats filled with stuff that some kid read in a doujin somewhere.

Also:
> If canon was really that great, fanon depictions would follow it more closely.

Sorry dude, doesn't work that way. We can even take your logic an apply it to something truly vile, for example Star Trek fanfiction. Are you seriously telling me that fanon Next Generation depictions are better than the original? Because thats the leap of logic you are making here, except with Touhou.

>>6670070
I'm not familiar with Star Trek fanfiction, but they must be better in some way. Otherwise people wouldn't use them.

Probably easier to write. That's an important consideration, you know. Shitty fan works are like Zerg.

>>6670049
We're not talking about how fanon is bad, it's just that sometimes fanon is confused as canon and people stick with it, which is annoying as hell when trying to keep a normal conversation or in the worst cases, a debate.

>>6670082

> Lots of people do it, so it must be good.

This is probably the most retarded thing I have ever heard someone say when trying to make a legitimate argument. I'm not even trying to be mean here. I'm honestly impressed.

I could be that, you know, they just suck at writing fanfiction?

>>6670090
Why aren't they sucking at writing fanfiction that sticks to canon, then? Because that's more difficult. It's not hard to understand.

>>6670102

You're starting to hurt my head.

How exactly would that make it "better"? I can agree with doing it because its interesting to make an alternative interpretation. But to say it is "better" because it is easier to write? What are you smoking?

>>6670102
Use your head, fanon isn't specified to just one straight thing like canon is, not by being ''better'' will it make it more popular to write, you can't write ''canon'', you can only derive from it which in turn leads to fanon. It doesn't matter if it goes to the opposite spectrum of it, the problem is when people take it as fact.

>that feel when you see a 100+post thread filled with arguments and you're not involved with it

Specifically, it is stuff like this that is bullshit:
>>6667645

I thought it was funny the first time I read it. But then I slowly started to realize that to some people, it wasn't a joke.

>>6669885
>>6669958
>flanderize

English, motherfuckers, do you speak it? You're not on TVTropes, so try to behave.

That said, give up. No matter how many words you write trying to spin Reimu into some kind of run-of-the-mill pristine MC, you cannot change the facts. The books and game dialogues are out there, people will read them and see a greedy violence-loving easily-irritated racist ZUN intended her to be.

Idiots like you invariably miss the fact that we actually like her the way she is; simply because she's more fun that way. If you can't accept that, along with the fact that Touhou characters in general just aren't nice people, maybe you should find yourself some other fandom.

>>6670111
How can you not see what makes them better? You just said it: They're easier to write. That makes them better. That. That that that.

They aren't better for reading, obviously.

>>6670149

You know we don't really care when people have an alternative interpretation right? I was just saying it would be nice to be able to have a discussion that doesn't degrade into a mish-mash of incompatible fan theories, as it often does. Nothing is quite so disappointing as seeing a discussion go on and on and on about how powerful Yukari is, or some-such. I see a Touhou discussion going on and get all excited, only to be disappointed with what is being discussed.

"Oh hey guys, are you talking about Touh-"
"Lol Alice leaks poop"
"... oh. Nevermind then. "

Sage because I actually agree that we're talking too much about this now.

>>6670172
Yeah, that sucks. But at least canon gets occasional discussion. I've resigned myself to never getting to discuss good fan works; it's hard enough getting people to read them at all.

>>6670182

Funny, because even though I was talking about being disappointed about not having canon discussion, I actually mostly read fanworks and rather like them. Because I've already read / played everything canon .

>>6670149
All that OP said was how he perceives Reimu´s character, the saint-ifying came from posts made by others. OP said how he sees that Reimu is like based on observation throughout the games, ZUN adds something to the characters every game, which includes the manuals (When he called Marisa as ''bold and timit'', people just rejoiced) so he never shows a clear definite image of the characters as they change in every chance he gets. Seeing as how fanon was taking a bit too much of Touhou fans' conceptions he made a thread about both his infering and original conception of what the ''canon'' Reimu is.

>>6670172
There's a difference between having an alternative interpretation and having the One True Interpretation and belittling everyone who happens not to agree. Especially when it goes contrary to source material.

Compare this little gem:

>But most people just push this way past the limit of common sense. The "Reimu is a bitch" thing is by far the worst offender

The quote gets extremely funny when you recall that Gensokyo as a whole happens to lie beneath the border of common sense.

>>6670186
Well as it's been stated before it's not that the fanworks are the problem, in fact they make Touhou better all the way and it's quite fun reading some of them. It's how people suck it up when having a canon discussion.

Blegh, Im tired of repeating myself over and over so let's just leave it there, if someone wants to carry on whatever point they have then go ahead.

>>6670197
Canon isn'tfun to readfor most people.

You know that whole Gensokyo is shaped by belief thing? The canon fact? That justifies every fanon interpretation ever. Deal with it.

>>6670195
There can be convos about fanon if it's for amusement (see: /jp/), it's perfectly fine and is a big factor in the Touhou fandom, it's just that sometimes debating is also fun, ande debating canon is not fun when fanon gets in the way of someone's arguments.

>>6663800
reimu should just have painful and terrible death and we should have new good main character. reimu is psychotic whore attacking others for no reason aka slut. even marisa is better.

>>6670203
It's not the reading what I meant, it's that canon is the source for anyone who'd want to discuss Touhou seriously (lol), fanon is the extended universe from the fans that is the reason of Touhou's popularity, but you can't have the extended universe without the main one first, and some people just like using it as a serious discussion. We're not saying fanon is bad or worse than canon in any way, see.

>>6670235
You forgot that if Reimu dies without having a descendance, Gensokyo implodes into nothingness, mister troll.

>>6670219
More importantly, debating canon isn't fun when participants disregard everything they disagree with as "fanon".

>>6670219
Keep in mind that canonical depictions of characters are a range of traits creating possibilities for several potential personalities rather than a than a single point. Reimu could be depicted as either responsible but needy, or as greedy but obligated. Sanae could be either shy going on confident, or normal going on slightly psychopathic. Unless fanon is flat-out contradicted by canon, fanon is a valid alternative character interpretation.

>>6670241

>mister troll.
keep that title to yourself.
>Gensokyo implodes into nothingness
Yukari wont allow (or she will, but she, chen, ran and rinnsuke are most important here anyway)
>Reimu dies without having a descendance
she is overgrown yukkuri.

>>6670254
What I meant by fanon was the memes (eg: Cirno is retarded, Marisa is a pimp, etc.), assumptions are the basis of canon arguments, else all you'd have to do is copypaste and the deed would be done. Of course, such assumptions also have to make sense and their truthfulness is also part of the debate going on.

>>6670254
>Unless fanon is flat-out contradicted by canon, fanon is a valid alternative character interpretation.

Also note that barely anything is flat-out contradicted by canon. ZUN sure loves his unreliable narration.

>>6670260

You seem to exhibit the symptoms of mad.

>>6670254
Not to take sides here but how is she obligated? Her whole family is dead and PMiSS says that nobody pays her and that most villagers don't even know that she's the one that solves incidents.

>>6670282
Only, you know, Cirno IS "retarded". Sure, even if you disregard the outright silly and canonically unreliable Akyuu's account, in all of her appearances her act still ranges from extremely childish to outright stupid.

>>6670282
Those fanon depictions have a grain of truth to them, so it's just that the arguers miss the point and take the fan works literally. Cirno may not be pants-on-head retarded, but she's one of the dimmer bulbs in Gensokyo. Marisa may have upwards of three girls - and one guy - who want her vagoo, but she's probably doing it unconsciously. So what you're describing is less problems with fanon being honestly inaccurate, and more with those reading it ignoring the truth behind the exaggerations.

>>6670302
To further extend my thoughts, two valid character interpretations may have different degrees of likeliness. Mokou having a secret lust for Kaguya throughout years of rivalry: not very likely. Mokou warming up to Keine after she protects and sympathies with her: quite likely. Having no contradictory points of reference makes an interpretation valid, but the more points of reference a fanon interpretation correlates with, the more likely it is.

>>6670316
Obligated in the "I'm the shrine maiden, so I should at least do shrine maiden things" manner.

>>6670330
As valid as an assumption may be, I don't see how they should be inmediately treated as canon, now Im not saying they aren't valid or anything, but sometimes people take such as absolute definite canon, as said in a previous post ZUN adds or changes aspects of the characters constantly so a clear image is and will likely never be seen. A big rage-inducing example of this is TVTropes Touhou page and subpages (coming from the ''Touhou Alternate Character Conpendium'' thread).

Keep in mind that is not that assumptions or fanons are bad or degenerating. But assumptions are just one part of debating canon, I'm not saying not to make them, but what I posted about mainly was the abuse of such mixed with fanon which makes a fake image of Touhous.

>>6670330
>Obligated in the "I'm the shrine maiden, so I should at least do shrine maiden things" manner.

Sounds more like sheer self-responsability seeing as how she wins nothing (other than, you know, saving the world one or two times).

>>6670381
Please note that claiming that something is absolutely definitely not canon is the same thing.

>TVTropes
>rage-inducing

That's redundant.

>>6670391
>saving the world

Fanon!

I was under the impression that TVTropes was on the 4chan Approved Site List.

Not that their furry article didn't make me rage.

>>6670421
How should I say this, more of a, ZUN never explicitly said it in the games/manuals/mangas/interviews kind of thing. Assumptions could have been foregathering facts at one point but ZUN throws all that shit to the river and flips a couple of degrees instead. If we wanted an extreme of hardcore debates then we'd have to go Umineko on this, where all normal assumption of common sense is shit'd out your nostrils, much like Gensokyo's laws of such.

Of course, it's better to choose the method which fits the person the most and enhances the fun aspect to the max, we're not debating politics here.

>>6670434
It comes and goes.
You are free to call every article that has a This troper thinks bullshit as complete ass.
It's good to kill some time but some people should really try to keep their opinions and fanons out of the goddamn articles.

>>6670446
Only a vast majority of fan beliefs actually stem from something ZUN wrote at one point or another. You don't exactly see people outright making shit up.

>>6670474
Oh really.

>>6670474
Ahem.

>>6670571
The charm in her hair.

A valid reasoning, if you ask me. She can't take it off -> someone sealed her -> there must have been something to be sealed -> extra power if she manages to take it off.

And besides, no one actually claims EX-Rumia is canon.

>>6670605
I'm positive that it was mentioned somewhere that the ribbon is just charmed so that it can't be removed...and that's it. It doesn't seal anything, she just can't take it off.
No idea where I heard that, though, so...

>>6670605
I know where it came from.

It's just that there's a limit between assumptions based on facts and utter made-up crap from facts.

>>6670632
>It doesn't seal anything, she just can't take it off.

No, it wasn't mentioned that it doesn't seal anything.

You're (again, assuming you're the person from above) making an unwarranted leap from "something wasn't explicitly stated" to "that means the opposite is implied".

>>6670671
I'm not him, why would I make a double post.

>>6670671
But see, it WAS mentioned somewhere, I just don't remember where.
And no, different person.

>>6670667
>a limit between assumptions based on facts and utter made-up crap from facts

Only it's arbitrary, not objective.

Once again, no one is claiming that EX-Rumia is canon. If someone does, sure, you have all the right to bash him, I'll be the first to help you. On the other hand, you have no right to bash people for coming up with the idea or liking it.

>>6670704
I'm not bashing anybody, if you read the previous posts you'd know that all we're talking about is fanon getting mixed up with canon in srs bsns arguments, the following posts tangling everything into a mess.

>>6670692
I'm sure it wasn't. Since there's not much written about Rumia, every text concerning her can be traced and verified, and I'm in the process of doing this. Nothing like that popped out so far, and I only have Aya left to check.

>>6670688
I meant from several posts above. Poor phrasing on my part.

>>6670714
It actually started from people claiming that Reimu being a bitch is fanon.

We might have been actually arguing two different points, sure, but let's state it that way: it's better to let EX-Rumia in than allow people to outright disregard anything they don't see fit under the guise of "fanon", without even a need of an explanation.

>>6670779
Pretty sure that >>6670714 meant the discussion going in the middle of the thread, aka the fanon getting into canon thing.

>>6671450
And I (and other people before me) am pointing out he has no case whatsoever if the examples of "fanon getting into canon" consist of statements that are at best debatable, and at worst outright canonically valid.

It is not mentioned ANYWHERE that Rumia's ribbon doesn't seal anything. You're free to believe it doesn't, of course.

>>6671697
For the zillionth time, it's not the fact that people discuss assumptions (coherent assumptions =/= general fanon) based on facts, the sole purpose was that sometimes when we discuss canon facts, FANON (X is a bitch) may get mixed in, it's not to let sheer assumptions out, that's the whole basis of it. Someone that uses a popular page such as TVTropes for example as a source for Touhou info is gonna get horribly mindraped seeing as how they claim that everything in their article/threads are canon (I've seen some crazy shit in there yo). Once again, coherence =/= baseless fanon (as in not fanon in general)

Tis a mess to explain, still.

Canon only arguments are boring. I've already argued everything interesting countless times.

Here have some fanon/canon.

Go rage.

>>6671984
Saved. Fuck off, all Touhous are flat in canon guy.

>>6671984
If we take sarashi's and Gensokyo's lack of common sense into account, the moment any of those 2 mikos take it off to take a bath might be thrice as bouncier as one might canonically expect.

I'm such a troll.

>>6673357
I expect no bounce from no breasts.
0 * 3 = 0

>>6673379
ZUN cockslaps back.

>>6671984

I like this for suggesting that the Dragon Palace Messenger has attained enlightenment so hard that she transcends breast size.

>>6671984
Surely that's not saying Komachi looks larger than Sakuya. She's not even nearly the size of Sakuya in those.

>>6673780
Look closer, her right boob covers half of her outfit divided by the white line. That shit's a whale yo.

Moar charts.

>>6673943
What's this guy got against birds?

>>6671916
>FANON (X is a bitch) may get mixed in
>X is a bitch
>FANON

Uh oh.

The sole difficulty of explaining to people that what they perceive as fanon is actually true and that their position is actually fanon makes discussion with them impossible, as demostrated by this thread.

That was the point all along. Something that people realize is a speculation or a meme is infinitely better and less destructive in comparison.

Take it easy, realize you are always bound to be wrong somewhere. Argue your position instead of complaining about fanon. Also, don't bitch about other sites on /jp/, of course someone who uses TVTropes for any kind of info is going to get horribly misinformed and the solution is to not use it, which used to be a norm around here. I'm pretty certain you're not talking about discussions on /jp/ either, when we used to discuss canon, you had to have several TouhouWiki tabs open in the background at any given time and there was "[citation needed]" every third post.

It also gets tiring at some point, so don't blame people if they simply don't want to do it at a time that you do. Not to mention the fact that more often than not a need for discussion means all sides have valid arguments and the only resolution possible is agreeing that ZUN is inconsistent/contradicting himself, which makes them all the more pointless and people all the less likely to bother.

>>6673943
Guncannon is moe~

>>6674124
Aight, let me paraphrase the 50 or so posts in the middle of the thread.

Fanon is absolutely and perfectly ungodly fine, in discussions, which includes assumptions, please stop going to this bloody point over and over. What is not fine, is things taken from unreliable sources, all we did was talk a bit about how some people do this and how it is a bit annoying, then the convo got out of hand since others started getting the wrong point of it all. We were just mentioning recopilations of anecdotes we had in the past, a quick mentioning before passing to whatever next topic came out of the keyboard (which never did, unless Boobreimu counts).

>>6674124

I'm sorry, I couldn't hear you over Black Tewi's rockin' hips.

>>6674226
No, that's not all you did. You were also trying to present blatantly true statements as "taken from unreliable sources".

>>6674296
Do you even know which posts were mine?

>>6674307
Do I need to? You used plural, so I assume you're taking responsibility for everyone in this thread not to mention I use plural too.

>>6674341
I was referring to the 2 of us in the middle of trolls, as in >>6669997 and >>6670012, my bad for not being clear.

And, we were just talking of how arguments vary in difference of how people tend to take what they consider fanon/canon, we never really dissed fanon (which was misunderstood right afterwards) but instead picked on the ones on the other side of the spectrum, not to mention, once again, people with a wrong idea of what is canon.

>>6674414
I'm sorry, but my point stands - that's a discussion started by a pretty ridiculous double post of(>>6669885 and >>6669890).

You have no right to complain about others not knowing canon when you appear to not know it yourself, and prefer said complaining over discussing it.

>>6674506
Be more specific? We never even actually did a canon-argument, just talking about the arguments themselves.

>>6674540
I'm pretty sure the whole thread is about Reimu (being/not being) a bitch, and that's what I specifically complain about all this time.

Oh, and to be clear: by "point stands" I mean the point in >>6674124.

Say, are you >>6669419 by chance? Because if you are, we actually did do a canon argument, how about coming back to it?

I'm only interested in Touhou for the art. The story and character profiles can suck my smelly balls for all I care.

>>6674638
Nay, that's the other anon that I was referring to in ''2 of us''.

This thread's topic changes quite fast actually (as is normal here anyway), it started being OP's non-side-taking depiction of what he believes is Reimu's bi-personality, to Reimu-lovers, to Canon/Fanon discussion, I don't quite mind, as long as there's something to debate that I find amusing.

You are searching for a specific stat that at some point or another you discovered but have since not been able to locate again. In fact it even has a button specifically for shipping international where you are able to pick USA.

The fap-worthy art kept you interested. Am I nurturing your smelly balls?

You are pretty sure the whole thread is about reimu being/not being a bitch, and that's what you specifically complain about all this time. The reason why azns are less ashamed of their waifu collections than in the west is because parents like it when their son shows an interest in girls-having a son with 200 pictures of hatsune miku his bedroom, to the parents, just means he's got women on his mind and will likely end up producing grandchildren once his life reaches that point lol where he starts socializing with women openly and dating.

>>6674826
good night autism-chan

>>6667510
From what I recall ZUN said MarisaB was the canon ending for UFO in an interview.

>>6674961
I do remember her talking about the Seed of Unknown (not yet known by that name at that point) in the EX stage backstory, however this is contradictory, seeing as how she also said she'd keep it a secret from Reimu and company, not to mention that Reimu and Sanae both know all the names and personalities of the bosses they just fought according to their EX dialogue.

Still, sauce for that interview mate.

>>6674998
http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,2506.0.html?PHPSESSID=bc41e1fef1552ecf4d7c607e
eca3dcb4
Found it by googling.

FUCK YOU REIMU IS MAI WAIFU!

That was uncalled for. The main bombshell is this remark:.

QUALITY TH READ

>>6675207
>05:17
>>6676174
>10:13

I always knew you were a troll. So let me get this straight, you don't like this thread yet you decided to bump it? Will you really go so far for attention? I'm filtering you.

>>6676185
Check the tripcode, it's not actually Quality Control, just a buttmad someone who is impersonating him or is using a bot to spam quality thread stamps.

>>6663830
Well you'd think that in Gensokyo you would need both personalities
Would Remilia stopped the scarlet mist if Reimu didnt kick her ass?
Would Yukari have fixed the border between life and death if Reimu hadnt beat her?
If she goes out to solve incidents, she SOLVES INCIDENTS, by force if she wants to.
And then, instead of finishing the enemies off, she befriends them, both Reimu and the opponent gaining a powerful ally, and someone to have tea with
Everyone wins, nobody ends up angry, and peace returns to Gensokyo

>>6676185
That's not him you fucking retard.

>>6676256
>Would Yukari have fixed the border between life and death if Reimu hadnt beat her?

I was under impression she didn't fix it either way.

Or can it really be flown over by design?

>by force if she wants to

You know she wouldn't want to do it any other way.

>>6676391
>>6676256
>You know she wouldn't want to do it any other way
Considering between MS and EoSD she changed it so force wouldn't matter, it's pretty clear she DIDN'T like doing it by brute force.

>>6675063
Woah man, he looks drunk as FUCK.

>>6676407
>she changed it

Akyuu implies Yukari did it. Reimu was (always) just a figurehead.

>>6675063
>·Reimu wasn't suppose to be greedy, but CMX turned her into a money slave.

...Eh?

>>6676407
>she changed it

Akyuu implies Yukari did it. Reimu was (always) just a figurehead.

Also, violent fights weren't a problem for her. The stalemate that resulted in LACK of fighting was a problem.

>>6676446
Read the books hon, they say that Reimu invented the spell card system. Yukari's the mangler on borders so any gimmick could have been thrown in.

>>6676462
>read the books, hon

>Although the shrine maiden decided on these rules,
>the original draft is written on the same paper as the youkai's contract.
>Was there any youkai proposing these rules to the shrine maiden?

Sure, hon.

>>6676482
That ain't clear, manuals afterwards still clarify the same point, ZUN is bound to talk in that way everytime which makes it look classier, don't suck up every word you see, hon, else we'd all think that Suwako is a corrupted extremist. He even said so in the interviews.

>>6676492
>don't suck up every word you see

Irony.

>He even said so in the interviews.

[citation needed]

Actually, wait, start by clarifying what exactly was he supposed to say.

>>6676448
Who/What's CMX?

>>6667751
I wonder how people love to insult Yukari without any reason for it.

>Would Yukari have fixed the border between life and death if Reimu hadnt beat her?
That explains why the border still isn't fixed.

>>6676662
Mmm?