/jp/ - Otaku Culture

Bazzet can kill servants it's canon
Discuss

okay

>>6590698
Noble phantasms can kill servants.
She had an endless loop in which she could re-try endlessly

>we need to add more shit to /jp/!!!!!

>>6590705
NSFW delete that.

>>6590724
At least it's /jp/ related shit this time.
Although I could really go for a I AM MY COTTAGE thread about now.

Did you guys hear about the new TM anime?

Look what they did to Arc. She looks like shit and they straight up removed her chest.

>>6590754
I don't get it.
>>6590762
But she always looked like shit, that wasn't anything "they" did to her.

>>6590769
You trollign?

>>6590769
Arc is perfect. Just kill yourself faggot.

>>6590705
The only good girl in that game. She makes sure he pulls out, unlike those other two whores.

>>6590790
If Arc was so perfect she would've been able to avoid all the shit she got into.

What's the next TM thing to be fully translated?

>>6590833
If Mahoyo ever comes out, that'll probably be translated before H/A is finished.

>>6590810
Like what? Do you realize that in Tsukihime (even as weakened as she was) even the villains need a fair ammount of plot armor so that the course of the battle would lean in their favor, right?

>>6590846
it's due for release on Christmas Eve and as yet that date is unchanged
I have it pre-ordered for the artbook and because I can't get enough of Nasu's dick

>>6590856
Like getting cut in 17 pieces. A truly perfect being would expect any and all threats coming from any being, and wouldn't be so easily ambushed like she was.

>>6590866
Nasu puts pictures of his dick in TM artbooks? If so HOLY SHIT I MUST BUY THEM.

Is the Tsukihime remake still ongoing or was it dropped in favor of milking Fate some more?

>>6590894
It was dropped in favor of Nasu playing more Demon's Souls

>>6590904
Stop reminding me of Miura.

>>6590904
He's also watching Milky Holmes.

>>6590884
it wouldn't be the worst thing they've illustrated
alternatively I could link that QUALITY sprite of Souka from Kagetsu

>>6590866
>it's due for release on Christmas Eve
Are you sure? I thought that was just the release date for the next Type-Moon Ace.

If I learn Japanese, it'll be so I can whisper sweet nothings to Nasu's ear while I stroke his duck

>>6590927
pretty sure though I can't recall where I read that
Amiami just gives a nice broad 'Winter' for a release date

>>6590875
That's a shitty argument, she is still the most perfect being. That was probably only due to her arrogance as she doesn't see humans as threats at all. Why would she have expected a school boy to attack her with a knife using the most deadly technique in the TM universe, and for no reason anyway. Plus, that's probably the first time that she has been exposed to an ambush attack, and she actually learns from experience better than anyone else.

>>6590944
>That was probably only due to her arrogance as she doesn't see humans as threats at all
Arrogance is a flaw, thus not perfect.

>>6590931
>while I stroke his duck
>duck
IT'S GETTING WORSE

>>6590931
Just face it, you'll never stroke Nasu, nor his duck, and especially not his dick.

>>6590944
So you are telling me she killed hundreds of Ancestors and none of them ever considered making an ambush?

Vampires confirmed for being even dumb, or shall I say, even dumber than what was expected.

>Start Type Moon thread, preferrably FS/N
>Thread goes one of several ways:

1] Sudo posts a Rin image and fags shit up the thread insulting him.
2] Power level discussion that somehow encompasses the entire universe.
3] Rare 40k fag comes in and trolls everyone and Arc fags rage
4] Arc fags deny that she is imperfect
5] Gil fags deny that he can't beat Arc
6] Shirou vs Shiki
7] FS/N ecchi dump

Everytime. It's like a routine now.

>>6591028
>3] Rare 40k fag comes in and trolls everyone and Arc fags rage
I don't think I've ever seen this one.

>>6591028
>fags shit up the thread
Not sudo shitting up the thread?
Good grief.

I wish I knew more about him pre-fire. Who were his real parents? What would his life have been like had the 4th Grail War never happened? It saddens me that I care more of his past than he does.

>>6591048
Yeah that is pretty sad. You're pathetic.

>>6591048
>What would his life have been like had the 4th Grail War never happened?
Absolutely normal. Seriously, Shirou came from a family of non-mages so he's just go about his normal life most likely with 27 dormant circuits.

I want more info on the 3rd grail war. it took place in 1939 and involved nazis. also luvia's family was in it.

>>6591001
>>6591001
Because she is cautious against vampires. She doesn't consider humans as being worthy of attention when she is hunting for vampires.

3] Rare 40k fag comes in and trolls everyone and Arc fags rage
Shirou should aspire to be more like Rowboat Girlyman, the spiritual liege of all true warriors

>>6591142
Let's be honest here, W40k beats everything /jp/ has. They also beat most of /v/ except for a few JRPGs and maybe some /co/ protagonists.

>>6591072
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winter_War

bump

SHIKI VS SHIROU, ONE ON ONE. WHO WINS?

>>6591910
Can shirou use UBW?

>>6591142

And Gilgamesh cried...
because deep down...

He knew he could never be an Ultramarine.

Who is she anyway?

>>6592029
my waifu

>>6592030
My condolences.

I'd like to see a massive Type-Moon crossover fighting game. Fate/Unlimited Codes only had Fate characters and Melty Blood has only Tsukihime characters (and Ryougi Shiki).

As much as I hate to say it, Fate/Tiger Colosseum Upper is the closest existing game to that idea. The stories are amusing, but the gameplay is... eh.

was unlimited codes not very popular? I played through the story mode for luvia once but I couldn't do her 360 input on the psp so I gave up on playing more than that.

>>6592212
The main problem with F/UC is that it becomes less fun as the skill of both players gets higher. Basically, it's a fun fighting game if you play casually, but it's a boring one-combo-in-five-minutes piece of shit if you actually try to get decent at it.

Still playing Fate/Extra, Caster's Noble Phantasm is pretty boss. Just beat the Assassin chapter, and I'm not sure how to fulfill Taiga's request this time. I've found the red data chip, but what should I do with it?

>>6593617
except i don't think you can actually do combos in F/UC

only the best of the best can actually play F/UC

>>6591061
>most likely with 27 dormant circuits.
Shirou would never have had any circuits at all had that been the case.

It's not as if he had 27 dormant circuits.
Yes, magi can actually create new circuits, but doing the way he did is above all, stupid.
For one thing the chance of survival is slim, second, it's really tearing on the body, and lastly, the circuits you end up with will be shit either way so it's not worth it even if you were to succeed.

There is this thing about circuit quality in the nasuverse, 1 circuit can technically be superior than 30 circuits or more if it's good enough.
Then again, Shirou must have messed up the circuit making process anyway, as the highly unorthodox layout of having his nervous system as his magic circuits were where he arrived at.

And yes, I know that Rin said all that about how a circuit is something you reveal rather than create.
But this was only to make Shirou realize that he already had circuits that he could use were he to reveal them, rather than doing crazy stupid method (and with Shirou's knowledge at the time, only end up with one circuit anyway).

But there is also the thing about aptitude. Shirou may have adapted a part of his nervous system to act as 27 circuits, something most likely rather unheard of in the world of the magi, and most likely not even good.
But his circuits are still perfectly made for UBW, for this one spell the circuits will be great, otherwise they suck.
That is why UBW is the only spell "allowed" for Emiya Shirou.

>>6593661
Considering how Magi value having more circuits over anything else, why wouldn't more do so?

>>6593669
Because as stated, the quality would be shit, and the method is ridiculous.

I don't quite know how they do it otherwise, circuits can obviously increase through the generations.
But in the end, Shirou's method should still be seen as utterly dumb and ineffective.

For another example, there is Zouken.
Now, Zouken was a highly special magus, so I figure his method is far from normal as well, and might possibly not make up for a good example.
But still, his crest worms were highly dangerous to use as well, and on that level the techniques were equal.
But his worms must have been much more effective on an uncomparable level.

I bet Shirou's circuits would be embarresing to have, and that's if you were to survive obtaining them.

>>6590944
>the most deadly technique in the TM universe
Sure anything whos death is struck would die and with that in mind it truly is deadly.
But you wouldn't exactly stand up after being hit by Excalibur or Ea either.

I believe that the power sort of doesn't matter that much anymore when it reaches the point where no defence matters.

>>6593701
I'm not sure Ea and Excalibur can stop Arcueid from regenerating instantly.

Roa regenerated almost instantly when his body was basically reduced to his ankles.

The only reason that Arcueid had a hard long time regenerating was because of Shiki's MEoDP cutting her connection with the world and her existence, basically denying her the right to exist, but she reconfigured herself so that she could exist. That's the reason why she took way too long to reform.

Excalibur and Ea will only destroy TAs and DAAs only to see them regenerate fairly quickly.

>>6593736
Well Ea might probably be able to kill her, since it was stated in Tsukihime that the only way to kill a True Ancestor is by using a weapon with the "abiliy to kill the world", but that's because of Ea's conceptual effect, not its power. Excalibur basically won't be effective against her, and it would be much easier to regenerate from an excaliblast than it was after being killed by the MEoDP, besides she can probably overpower an excaliblast by countering with a blast of equal force. The only madern weapon that can stop(more like put her out of comission) her permanently is the Black Barrel.

That reminds me, I swore I heard the black barrel mentioned in Tsukihime, but I couldn't find a reference when I last checked.

Was it mentioned, and if so, is it the same gun that was in that short story with evolved humans and God Gun?

>>6593763
Ea "split the world", not killed it. And it has only shown the ability to do that against Reality Marbles, which are a "world" of their own. Ea does not sever connections with the world like any version of MEoDP can. It merely rips apart timespace leading to the world being ripped apart effect.

>>6593779
>like any version of MEoDP
This doesn't include the shitty fake MEoDP that Roa had that just took life away from what it cut.

>>6593778
It was probably the same one, the one in Notes was slightly modified by Gun God though.

>>6593736
>>6593779
Nope. Ea's conceptual effect creates a space where the target is sent back to a time before the earth existed. This would sever Arc's ties with the Earth so if Gil could deal even more damage to her in that time frame by chaining his attacks, she'd be dead.

We all know that Gil is too stupid to do this though, so whatever.

>>6593819
The target isn't sent. Ea only creates the timerip. Whether Arcueid is sent inside that timerip is another question altogether or just gets blown apart only to reform again instantly with a vengeance. Gilgamesh has a penchant for not cleaning up what he hits. (Sakura)

>>6593819
I don't think that would work. Arcueid still managed to exist in a future where the world was dead already. Arcueid also has her own terraform capability like the Types have. The world will exist and it does exist. That connection cannot break just by sending Arcueid to another time.

>>6593836
The time rip creates a localized distortion, so the target is 'sent' in a manner no matter how you look at it. A bigger concern would be:

>>6593839
Not because Arc can terraform, but because Arc has hax plot armour like Shiki. The only reason why Gil even has a chance of beating her was because Nasu implied that he wouldn't dick around.

>>6593845
It doesn't send everything around it. In the times it has been used, it has never done that. And that's the problem with it. It can't just send everything around the area it hits to wherever. As long as part of Arcueid exists, she will regenerate. And so would just about every DAA/TA that existed.

>>6593850
Gil has never used it to that effect in Fate.

Read up F/Z to see more of its potential.

>>6593845
>Gilgamesh
>he wouldn't dick around
Now that's some funny shit right there.

Protip: Arcueid and Gil will never fight.

>>6593845
Lol, Arcueid is the last character that would have plot armor, she doesn't need plot armor, in fact all the villains and enemies that might fight her need plot armor just to stand a chance.

Besides, Nasu just said that Gil can only beat a weakened and handicapped (she is not allowed to summon the Millenium Castle in order to use her true power) Arcueid anyway.

>>6593859
>Arcueid is the last character that would have plot armor
>the very own plot is backing her up with her bullshit powers

>>6593859
I used the term plot armour wrong, I meant God Mode Sue who is boring in all aspects.

Yeah, we already know that he can't beat a 100% Arc and only people like Archaon can, but let's not go there since Arc fags will flood into this thread.

>>6593876
Well, yeah, just imagining stuff happening to your opponent and it actually happening is really unfair if you think about it.

>>6593885
>boring in all aspects
There has never been a more perfect girlfriend throughout Type-Moon than Arcueid represents.

>>6593885
>boring in all aspects
There has never been a more perfect girlfriend throughout Type-Moon than what Arcueid represents.

>>6593876
Arcueid is the Ultimate One of earth, of course she needs to be powerful in order to protect the planet. All those are her natural abilities, that doesn't count as plot armor. Would you say that ORT has plot armor because it is physically more powerful than anyone else and has a lot of hax powers?

>>6593897
Three words: Boobs in sweaters.
Who cares about immortality or being able to create anything you want, that's all you really need.

>>6593904
Crystal valley... maybe.
But arcueid with her your power+1 is ultra annoying.

>>6593897

Not trying to change the subject, but did they ever make a successful translation patch for Hollow Ataraxia?

>>6593920
>posts facepalm
>thinks that's a good argument

>>6593906
>Boobs in sweaters.

>>6593942
>Implying I'm going to make an argument to a subjective post

No. Have another reaction image for your incomprehension.

>>6593949
>implying my argument is subjective and not pure fact
Almost every other heroine in T-M has zero fun personality. Closest that comes to Arcueid is SUGOI and even then, she's almost always gone because world traveler.

>>6593918
So basically you don't like hax powers. The Counter Guardians receive infinite prana, Primate Murder receives a power bonus when its put against humans, Gae Bolg does damage equal to its target HP, and Slash Emperor is also the kind of "LOL MY POWER = YOUR POWER +1" kind of weapon. It grows and shrinks in response to Ado's opponent.

>>6593957
Perfection depends on standards. Standards depend on a person's preferences which are... oh my god, subjective?

Pic related: it's me being mildly annoyed.

>>6593968
Learn to read the entire sentence instead of just concentrating on one word. Because they change things for the entire context when you read them altogether.

Moron.

>>6593968

>>6593979

Nope. Still subjective.
Keep trying, I'm here for another 10 minutes before class.

>>6593988
Sorry, but no. If you can't think of Arc as anything close to being a perfect girlfriend, you have poor taste. Now that is a fact.

>my tastes > your tastes

>>6594001

>Arc is perfect!
>Opinions anon

>NU UH, IT'S FACT
>Nope, it's subjective because it depends on the person

>Well, you have shit taste then

Sums up our conversation pretty well if I do say so. I'm off to class, learn to not backpedal next time or form a coherent argument.
Peace.

Stop arguing guise, can't we all agree that Caster is the best and should be loved unconditionally with all our hearts?

>>6591194

Really, now...?

>>6594136
>Flandre
>Powerful

>>6594136
Flandre hides in the basement because she knows she can never be an Ultramarine

Rather than fight, if Gil and Arc ever met they would just highly respect each other, both being considered "royalty of the Earth".

Gilgamesh doesn't go around picking fights. Hell, he didn't even want to fight in either of the Wars.
He only did the 4th because Tohsaka bowed before him and begged like the mongrel he is, and upon meeting Rider and Saber he found it worthy of his time since there are kings.
He only did the 5th for more Saber.

He meets Arc, he takes out some wine, and they have a drink. No fight for you.

>>6594020
But you're a faggot with shit taste. The fact that you even replied to a "subjective" post that you supposedly wouldn't even argue with first makes you a retard.

>>6594181
Opinions. Give it a rest, Anon.

BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD
SKULLS FOR THE SKULLTHRONE

>>6594175
Bets are Arcueid doesn't even accept the drink and blasts off to find Shiki so they can go and watch a movie. Double bets on Gilgamesh not even caring that he sees Arcueid and tries to find out where Saber is to fuck her.

The only reason that Excalibur is A++ rank and not EX is because it's output is limited.
But that only means the strike area is limited, not that whatever is struck won't be obliterated.

There is nothing Excalbur can't cut, that much Nasu retained from the original qualities.

Ea practically has no limit, that's why it can theoretically cleave the entire world, wheras Excalibur can only cleave the sky.

It's worth mentioning however that Gilgamesh can't cleave the entire world, simply because he isn't fully divine. But that doesn't mean Enuma Elish still doesn't completely obliterate everything in the blast from existance.
The same way anything in Excaliburs blast is destroyed.

>>6594159

Well, it's not like we lack for options.

After all, each one of the girls has roughly the firepower of a battleship.

>>6594205
When you're up against people who can mind rape you from across the galaxy, you know something is up.

>>6594175
Nah, I can see Gil either trying to rape Arcrueid (doubtful since he won't know who she is), or go off to find Saber sex.

>>6591194
>W40k beats everything /jp/ has
>Demonbane

Nope.

>>6594202
I believe that Ea's scope of power was limited according to the new compilation book. Lol retcons.

>>6594205
Who do you really think Reimu's shrine is for anyway?

>>6594221
Gilgamesh is into men and flatchested girls. The sight of Arcueid's DD bust would make him ignore her completely.

>>6594083
I agree with this fine man.

>>6594264
Perfect waifu right here folks.

>>6593960
>It grows and shrinks in response to Ado's opponent.
I have never heard of anything like this before.
Slash Emperor can alter it's size, but that is entirely by Ado's will, not some opponent's power.
The limit is the amount of gin available.
With Earth's gin it can supposedly strike several planets away, and at the speed of Ado's thoughts.

When the thought of striking someone is processed, the action has already been realized by then.
Gin is the fuel, and it's also the elemental attribute of the attack, and it's strong against Types and beings like that.

Sure Ado may be OP as fuck, but it's still not related to the opponent like that.
Arcueid is the one with the bullshit power of opponent+1.

>>6594202
>There is nothing Excalbur can't cut, that much Nasu retained from the original qualities.

Where the hell are you pulling this out from? In fact, everything in your post makes no sense. The Rank of the Noble Phantasm means the degree of mystery, not the damage it can deal, or would you say that Rule Breaker can deal same ammount of damage as Kanshou and Bakuya because they are both Rank C?

Also, no, just no, Exaclibur doesn't have the concept of "Cut through anything". Stop mixing real life leyend with Nasuverse lore. Excalibur isn't a Conceptual Weapon. The description is flavour text. Its effect isn't literally cut through anything. It's just a really power slash.

And according to CM3, Ea's output is only slightly bigger than Excalibur, even if it has the concept of "World Ripping", it's only a conceptual effect, it certainly can't destroy planets. And faced with a massive counterattack Enuma Elish wouldn't stand a chance, meaning that attacks of the magnitud of Type Jupiter's self detruction, the Moon Fall, etc, are more than enough to overpower Ea.

>>6594313
The rank mentioned is completely unrelated t it's mystical rank.
The mystical rank exists, but isn't statted out on the status screens.

The ranks mentioned are the power outputs.
EX is for limitless or otherwise unmeasurable power.

A "weaker" weapon can in fact have a higher mystical rank than a stronger weapon.

>>6594331
So are you saying that Archer's KnB deal the same damage as Rule Breaker because they are both C Rank? You know that's wrong.

>>6594313
>And according to CM3, Ea's output is only slightly bigger than Excalibur
As explained. Gilgamesh can only use the full power of Ea as he isn't fully divine, this is only his limit.

>Also, no, just no, Exaclibur doesn't have the concept of "Cut through anything". Stop mixing real life leyend with Nasuverse lore.
It's still described as the most powerful sword of the universe, and it's still said repeatidly that there is nothing it can't cut. And really, there is no reason to not believe it. Why shouldn't we assume that the strongest sword noble phantasm there is, can cut anything when it's said repeatidly that it can and when nothing on the contrary is shown?
The excaliblast was offshooted by Ea's blast, but even then it was because of enuma elish's mystic properties and not Excaliburs lack of power.
There is nothing to imply that it cannot cut anything.

>Excalibur isn't a Conceptual Weapon.
Neither is Ea, but enuma elish still obliterates anything and everything from existance within the blast.
Excalibur could simply be stronger than any defence there is.

>>6594389
Power != Damage capabilities
Rule Breaker can fuck around in tons of different ways. The sum of it's powers adds up to C.

>>6594389
You're only looking at raw power. Rule breaker has special properties that propel it to rank C, making up for the fact that it is not even a class E dagger.

>>6594391
I thought that the only reason that Shirou couldn't trace Ea but could trace Excalibur was because it was a conceptual weapon?

>>6594391
>As explained. Gilgamesh can only use the full power of Ea as he isn't fully divine, this is only his limit
CM3 doesn't say anything like this. It only says Ea's limit, as if somebody other than Gilgamesh used it. Besides, even if that were the case, only Gilgamesh has fucking possession of that weapon so no one could use it full power. But that's not even the case at all.

>>6594391
>couldn't cut through ea
>still claim it can cut through anything
Fuck off

>>6594391
>As explained. Gilgamesh can only use the full power of Ea as he isn't fully divine, this is only his limit.

If this is true, then please cite the source. Because I swear I haven't heard this in any of Nasu's books. Nowhere it says that Ea's power has any correlation with the Divinity Rank of the user at all.

>Why shouldn't we assume that the strongest sword noble phantasm there is, can cut anything when it's said repeatidly that it can and when nothing on the contrary is shown?

Because Nasu said in one of his interviews that some toughs DAA could withstand a direct hit from Excalibur, and that against them Gae Bolg would be the best weapon simply because it deals damage equal to its target HP. Say, if you have just the physical defense to resist it, then you'd be fine. If Excalibur produces 1000 units of damage, and a shield can withstand 1010 units of damage, then the shield will stand. So yeah, Excalibur doesn't have infinite power, it isn't the most powerful weapon in the universe, that's just retarded, it is just the most power holy sword.

>Neither is Ea

Oh it surely is, it is a Conceptual Weapon that has the concept of "World Ripping". And it's effect which is that of the leyend of "ripping the world" is what puts Ea in a special category. That's why the weapon is Anti World.

>>6594434
>CM3 doesn't say anything like this. It only says Ea's limit
It doesn't says anything else either, so there is nothing to help your argument there.

One way to look at it is that we all know that Gilgamesh can only use a part of Ea's power.
Yet we know that Gilgamesh can do what the limit says in CM3, therefore we can assume that the full power of Ea, as when used by a 100% divine being, is greater.

>>6594419
>I thought that the only reason that Shirou couldn't trace Ea but could trace Excalibur was because it was a conceptual weapon?
Shirou can trace conceptual weapons, he does it all the time.
But Shirou couldn't trace Ea because UBW is limited to things made out of materials from their own world.

Ea is an outworldly thing that predates the world. He cannot reproduce it because it's materials doesn't exist in the world.
This is also the same reason why he couldn't trace the jewel sword.

Disregard the fact that he actually managed to trace the jewel sword, the principle still stands.
Possibly he tapped into the cross-dimensional power of it in order to trace it, that or a simple Nasu exception.

>>6594462
Aside from the jewel sword, what about Excalibur? I recall it being stated that it was a gift from the faeries, not made from materials in this world like K&B.

>>6594474
He never traced Excalibur. Case closed.

>>6594479
Are you sure?
I thought he traced it in HF instead of Caliburn. Also, isn't Avalon the sheath to Excalibur, holding the same principles anyways?

>>6594491
He could trace Avalon because it was in his body. He knew the materials because they were a part of him.

I also don't remember him tracing Excalibur. Anyone care to clear up this situation?

>>6594474
Excalbur was made by the faries.
It says nothing about what it was made from.

>>6591061
It's Nasucanon that NO person with that many collection of circuits goes about their life normally--lest we forget, Shirou was born with a Reality Marble just like Satsuki was. One of Tokiomi's main conflicts in Fate/Zero about both his girls was that, no matter what, it'd have been impossible for them to have "normal" lives. The circuits, dormant or no, would merely have made them a target for other magi at best, and unable to function in everyday society at worst.

Same goes for Shiki--even without the MEoDP, he was a weird kid. After the accident, his aura apparently got even worse as kids in class avoided him since they subconsciously realized he wasn't something that should exist.

That's more than enough to conclude in a city where a magus has overall rule and fucntion, not to mention the second best leyline in Japan, that Shirou would not have had a normal life regardless of if the Holy Grail War took place or not.

>>6594508
He did trace Excalibur in order to destroy the great grail in HF.

Archer also said that he could trace it, but that the sword couldn't be perfectly reproduced (what that means is up to interpretation as none of his swords are perfectly reproduced).

In either case he can project it.
He also didn't quite project Avalon, it was more akin to him summoning it from his body through projection.

>>6594508
Avalon was part of Excalibur. If Excalibur was made from non-ethereal materials by the fairies, then so was Avalon. Just because he had it in his body shouldn't mean that he could project it according to your definition.

>>6594462
>One way to look at it is that we all know that Gilgamesh can only use a part of Ea's power.

Where does it say this anyway? Please cite the source.

>therefore we can assume that the full power of Ea, as when used by a 100% divine being, is greater.

So Nasu says that Ea's output is slightly bigger than Excalibur. Then you assume that he was not talking about the full power of Ea, but about the power that Gil can use, and that the reason why he can't use its full power is because he is not completely divine? I'm sorry but you're just drawing conclusions from simple conjectures. Also, nowhere it says that Gilgamesh cannot use Ea at full power.

>>6594521
Shirou had no dormant circuits, and in theory everyone supposedly have an inner world. The question on Reality Marbles is more about how/if they can manage to summon it within their lifetimes.

In the Nasuverse, imposing ones own reality on another and replacing it is a demonic ability, and this very thing is the nature of demons in the nasuverse.
In essence, learning to impose ones own reality on the world sort of makes one less human in a way.

But there is nothing special about "having" a reality marble, everyone does. And were Shirou to live a normal life his inner world would most likely be very different and he would most likely never even come close to learning how to tap into it's powers, less alone summoning it.

In other words, there was nothing outright special about Shirou prior to the fire.

>>6594526
Archer's issue is that to even reach Excalibur's minimum is beyond his circuits total output and using it would either kill him in the process of using it or fuck him up real bad. Like worse than screwing up projection enough to turn his hair white and darken his skin.

Whoever is claiming Gilgamesh can't use Ea's full power because he's not fully divine is fucking pulling it out of their ass. That is not mentioned ANYWHERE. Ea is actually stronger under Gil's command, as it has a bonus of increasing even further with it's owner's wealth. And gee, just who the fuck is the wealthiest character in Type-Moon, fuck, in practically all of anime? Gilgamesh. Because he owns fucking everything.

Also, CM3 saying Enuma Elish's output is just slightly higher than Excalibur's is just referring to the general output. Ea can spin and increase that output even further. That's the whole point why in the Fate route their blasts conflicted. They were even at first, and Gil simply increases it further to make Saber end up in a puddle of her own blood, and then laughs about women and children.

The wiki explains it well. http://typemoon.wikia.com/wiki/Ea
Read that since you apparently haven't read the VN to fucking see how much stronger Enuma Elish is over Saber's Excalibur.

>>6594661
Sometimes I wish I were Gil so I could laugh about women and children.
;_;

>>6594661
>Ea is actually stronger under Gil's command, as it has a bonus of increasing even further with it's owner's wealth.
You are confusing things with Gates of Babylon.

>>6594313
>I'm talking out of my ass!

And boy does it show. Now let's start with a refresher.

The thing separating a Noble Phantasm from a Conceptual Weapon is ideals and fame. Both operate on a nature defying/overwriting or miraculous manner. Both become stronger the more mystical the origin (cut for unicorns, age of gods, born from faeries, birthed from the origin, etc).

Noble Phantasms, however, draw the base of their power from the fame acquired from its feat. Gae Bolg is the sure kill spear. It's said to have more power than Gungir--that's because every single time Chulainn drew it in life, it killed its target without fail. Kanshou & Bakyua's true power (Three Wing Crane Realm) is based metaphorically at least from the legend of the Three Kings who's heads were cut off by the blades.

Excalibur is the Sword of Promised Victory. It was made by fairies using what is essentially the crystalized hope for victory from mankind and their never-ending wars. In practice there's literally NOTHING that should be able to defeat the sword--it can cut anything.

In practice. That's not Exaclibur's true power, anyway--that power is the sheath, which blocks out all miracles and even true magic.

tl;dr, Excalibur's secondary purpose is the undefeated sword--yes, it's supposed to cut anything. Ea is simply older and capable of generating a force it can't cut--no more, no less.

>>6594680
Oh shit nigger. If you're going to argue about Gilgamesh then know what the fuck you're talking about.

>>6594419
Shirou can trace Excalibur. Archer can almost perfectly replicate Excalibur's NP rank. Neither person can USE Exaclibur because it requires a fuck-ton of prana (1000+ units). HF Shirou didn't die because he traced the sword (though that WAS the end of his mind). HF Shirou died because he used the rest of the prana in his body to activate the sword.

Saber can, provided the right master, chuck Excalibeams like candy because she has the karma and prana capacity of a dragon--and, if I recall correct, is the second-highest prana capacity person in the Nasuverse (the first being Ciel).

>>6594661
>Ea can spin and increase that output even further. That's the whole point why in the Fate route their blasts conflicted. They were even at first, and Gil simply increases it further to make Saber end up in a puddle of her own blood
You never got that scene did you?

The blast occured because ea's mystical powers managed to deflect excalibur's.
It had nothing to do with ordinary power.

In a sense it was the same reason why Caliburn could strike down Berserker the way it did.
Nasu also explained the spinning to be like a quick on and off switch. It's either on or off and has nothing to do with increasing any power.

>>6594706
Full retard my ass.
I have not even said anything else about it.

But check out Gates of Babylon's status page and then compare it to Ea's page.

Gates of Babylon is related to the owner's wealth. Obviously as Gates of Babylon is ones wealth.

But this has nothing to do with Ea.
So keep down the ad hominems and keep shut.

>Oh it surely is, it is a Conceptual Weapon

Ea isn't a Conceptual Weapon. The only known NP that is a Conceptual Weapon is Rho Aias.

>That's why the weapon is Anti World.

The weapon is "anti world" because it's magic is to use false time/space ripping to return the target AND target area back into the original essence of heaven/chaos, when the world had no definition whatsoever. And by "return" I more or less mean "I reject your reality and insert my own". That's the space/power that Excalibur can't cut through. But it IS the space/power that can't penetrate Avalon.

>>6594719
But... official material just said that Shirou can only trace things that are made from the material of this world. So you are saying that the sword the faeries made was created from mankind?

>>6594706
>He thinks GoB is the same as Ea!

>>6594741
THe Zeltretch dagger is also a conceptual weapon.
Rule Breaker may have also have been one.
And Gae Bolg has a conceptual effect but that's it.

>>6594749
World =/= mankind.
Fairies exist in the world of FSN so they are part of the world, EA was created with materials from a completely different dimension.

>>6594749
faeries are from this world.

>>6594703
You are talking bullshit, but I won't bother custioning your flawed assumptions. I'll just say that Nasu indeed said that some DAA could withstand a direct hit from Excalibur simply because of their massive endurance. So there goes the "sword that cuts through anything" assumption".

>>6594761
I'm confused. Avalon is definitely NOT part of this world.

>>6594741
From CM3

Anti-World Noble Phantasm
The type that Gilgamesh's Enuma Elish belongs to. The actual output of Enuma Elish itself is about the same level or a little higher than Arturia's Excalibur, but it's effect which is unquestionably that of the legend of "ripping the world" puts this sword in a special category. Oh, and the rank is EX.

> it's effect which is unquestionably that of the legend of "ripping the world" puts this sword in a special category

So yeah, that's Ea conceptual power. It has the power to "rip the world" even though it has the same power output as Excalibur. That's why Ea is Anti World.

>This is also the same reason why he couldn't trace the jewel sword.

You do realize Zelretch and his magic do not predate the world, right? And that he traced Kalidescope in Heaven's Feel, right?

>>6594552
All 27 of Shirou's circuits were dormant. He never opened them. Eventually, they'd have given him hell, anyway through natural means.

>demonic ability

No, you're probably misunderstanding. Demons are beings that can directly manipulate nature. A Reality Marble is something that directly substitutes nature. Demons manipulate natural occurrences, and a Reality Marble creates a very, VERY unnatural phenomena.

Further, the ability to manipulate nature is not demonic in origin. Any natural spirit or psychic can do the same thing, depending on scale (Naturally no human could do the same as a demon, but Arc who is a far superior class of fairy/spirit can outdo any demon she comes across). See also, Mystic Eyes, Asagami Fujino, Mantis!Shiki, Shiki Tohno (fake), Kiri Nanaya, Shiki Ryougi, etc.

It's funny how all type moon threads turn into obscure things never mentioned or sometimes not even hinted at in the original works even if they are highly relevant.

It's like Tolkien's works all over again.

>>6594661
>He linked the wiki

Nigga you just went full-retard. More than a third of what's in that wiki is now no longer trusted due to [CITATION NEEDED] and any random faggot having access to it.

>>6594784
Yes it is. It and Excalibur were created by World/Gaia crystallizing part of mankind's hope/wish. I can't recall what exactly what wish/hope that was though.

>>6594803
>comparing shitty outdated Tolkien to the glorious writings of Nasu.

>>6594824
No, I mean that the faeries existed on a plane similar Arturia's heaven, Avalon. That has nothing to do with Gaia.

>>6594749
The sword of the fairy realm crystalizes the hopes of mankind. Further, he traced the damn thing in Heaven's Feel normal end. It's no different from him tracing Lancelot's Arondight, which has the same origin of Excalibur.

The fairy realm is offset from Earth, not entirely separated. It's rare and holy because it takes miracles to literally stumble into it. But there are no elements within that are not present in Earth, though there are certainly elements there that would be difficult to conceptualize or produce for Shirou (hence his brain hemorrhaging at attempting to trace the sword).

Archer casually talked about replecating the sword to a point where he could arguably offset Saber's Rin-powered Excaliblast. Shirou efficiently duplicated Black Saber's sword to kill the Angry Manjew.

Ea, on the other hand, is the result of a time when the Earth--and by association, the fairy realm--did not exist. So it's classified as a sword of materials foreign to Gaia.

... Besides the fact that Nasu wanted something Shirou couldn't duplicate.

Victory in battle. If you wanna be funny, call it "The Sword of Condensed Tears From Centuries of Faggot Losers", since that's more or less what it is.

>>6594801
Zelretch's dagger is filled with crap from other worlds/dimensions, being the kind of frenetic traveller he is.

>Demons
If you read up on Nasuverse demons you should find that the demons' very own consciousnesses are reality marbles. It's their natural state, they don't summon their world, instead their own world is their surrounding world or something like that however it works.
It was said in one of the side material books, and is also pasted onto the fuyuki wiki thing either under demons or under magic.

>All 27 of Shirou's circuits were dormant. He never opened them.
>All 27 of Shirou's circuits were dormant.
This is never stated anywhere in all of the works and there is nothing to imply that being the case.
Him not having any, having to work for getting them by going through insane methods however is.
>He never opened them.
Granted this was after he had already obtained them, but Rin thought him how to open circuits already obtained. So yes he have opened dormant circuits, but he never had them from the beginning.

>>6594784
The isles of Apples doesn't necessarily have to be.
The sheath however can.

Somebody should just e-mail Nasu or something about the Shirou's circuits issue at this point.

>>6594798
>> it's effect which is unquestionably that of the legend of "ripping the world" puts this sword in a special category
All this says is that it's power is the same as in the legend.

If we go by that Excalibur and most of all noble phantasms would be conceptual weapons.

Why are some of you guys trying to disprove something that clearly happened in the game itself?
Shirou traced Excalibur in HF, Archer said he would trace and use it in UBW, what more do you fucking want?

>>6594852
>Demons
Read up on True Ancestors then come back to me on that.

>Circuits
UBW Route. After Shirou traces Kanshou & Byakuya (without Rin's gem help), he spends the rest of the day hiding the fact that something is grossly wrong with him and he doesn't have full body functioning ability. Archer fixes Shirou and casually lets him know that he just finally opened up his real circuits instead of constantly using that fake one he made out of his whole body.

Fate Route. Rin has Shirou explain his practice routines and concludes that he's a moron that's been consistently trying to kill himself every night for as long as he's been practicing magic with his routine. She then makes him swallow a gem that essentially forces his long-dormant magic circuits open, letting him now use magic with a mental trigger instead of going through a painful warm up ritual.

>obtain
You don't obtain circuits, you're born with a finite number that can increase or decrease depending on there's a magus present capable of putting one through the process. Shirou was born with 27, and he didn't use a one of them until the events of Fate/Stay Night.

>>6594760
None of those are Conceptual Weapons. And if anything, then Zelretch's dagger is a Mystic Code, much in the line of El Melloi's mercury and Kiritsugu's Thompson Contender.

>>6594846
Wasn't it because Ea was made out of a meteor?

>>6594887
That's not its power but it's conceptual effect. Excalibur and Ea have roughly the same power, but Excalibur doesn't have the ability to "rip the world".

>>6594887
Conceptual Weapons by definition institute "new rules" onto the target..fuggit. Too difficult to explain it. If you absolutely must, look into the Wayback Machine's Fuyuki archive. It's all there. And not nearly as fanfic-heavy as the Type-Moon wiki.

>>6594952
Just use the backup on Tatari, if only for the fact that it loads much faster.
http://tatari.byethost33.com/fuyuki/index.htm

>>6594928
Shirou wasn't born with circuits, he was just like Shinji in that regard.

Everyone reacted to his methods of creating them, not something his family lineage or anything like that which they would without doubt react over if he was supposedly an ordinary child but with 27 circuits.

Rin says that circuits aren't something you make each time you do magic, but that simply it's something you reveal.
And you should also note how it was explained as something you don't do each time. Because each time still implies that it's still done when it's done.

Archer, in various scenes, explains that he opened up his dormant circuits and that things should be fine.
But keep in mind that this by itself does in no way means that he was born with them. Just because circuits may be dormant doesn't in anyway means one was born with them.
Archer also explains at one point, regarding Rin as a tacher, that Rin as a legitemate magus would never understand the magic of an unorthodox magus like Shirou, who even uses his own nervous system as his circuits.

This also doesn't mean he was born with them.
Of course he was born with his nervous system, but that doesn't mean his nervous system was always attuned to be able to double as circuits.

Rin also talks to Shirou when they discuss their magic training and childhood, in a way as if while the method Shirou was stubbornly using was of course stupid, nowhere is any sign shown that implies that all the training over the years was pointless.
Creating all those circuits each time he practiced magic over all those years wasn't for nothing even if was ridiculously stupid.

And yet again, this still doesn't mean that circuits gain in this way are any good.
Shirou have still failed to show the proper use of a spell not related to UBW.

>>6594979
>Shirou have still failed to show the proper use of a spell not related to UBW.
Maybe because you know, throughout the course of F/SN he didn't learn any?

>悪魔の持つ異界常識 - Akuma no motsu joushiki
>Reality Marbles. It's not so much the fact that Reality Marbles are natural abilities of demons, but the idea that Reality Marbles THEMSELVES are the natural perception of demons, that is their "common sense".

>>6595003
No matter how many times I've read this, I still can't make sense of it.

>>6594987
Well I won't say that he absolutely can't learn any.
But I don't believe his circuits are helping him.

His circuits were as explained, always made to be able to work with UBW.
So they have a natural affinity towards it making it easier.

He did however not show any profiency with any other form of spell during his childhood training, he failed any attempt of anything else given to him by Rin during the routes, and Archer himself never outright showed any profiency in anything else even though he supoosedly have some knowledge in magic. But that knowledge may very well be theoretic.
Then there was that whole "this is the only spell allowed for me" etc speech, but that doesn't necessarily have to be 100% true.

But as I said, I never said he absolutely without doubt can learn any, but I don't think the circuits makes it any easier.
The circuits he has have a natural affinity towards UBW, but no matter how he got them it doesn't make sense for them to be of any good quality as he isn't from a magi lineage.

>>6595031
Considering Rin didn't try very hard to actually teach him any spells and the fact that most servants have stupid high magic resistance any thaumaturgy Archer could do would be pretty much ineffective or at the very least less effective than projections and Broken Phantasms.

>>6595011
No matter about the rest of the interpretation, but isn't it safe to assume that Reality Marbles are demonic in nature at least?

The way I see it
>Reality Marbles THEMSELVES are the natural perception of demons
Reality marbles are sort of the most natural thing there is to demons. Anything they percieve is part of their own world.
I figure wherever they go their inner world follows and imprints itself.

This should also in turn make demons a natural enemy of the world, which makes sense.

>>6595011
I think it means that demons don't "warp/invade" reality to match their own inner landscape, but that the warped reality IS their reality, as in, they don't know any other and so don't activate consciously, it just happens because that's how they live.

Dear sirs, I have a (maybe) less interesting question for you, maybe someone can clear this up for me.
In Character Material, Aoko has brown hari and Touko has blue(dark?) hair. I conclude from Kara no Kyoukai that Touko has red hair now because she switched bodies with one of her dolls. But I wonder why on earth Aoko has red hair in Tsukihime. TM Wiki (in b4 lol wiki) states her hair is dyed, anyone knows where this was said? At first I thought that Touko made a doll for her and she somehow also switched bodies but I'm pretty sure the reason for this is pretty much more trivial. Thanks in advance.

>>6595070
It's uncertain I believe. When Mahoyo comes out we might learn more.

>>6595097
I though so. I have few more questions. It seems that you find TM wiki shitty resource and refer to such things as Character Material 3. The only Character Material I have is the one with ORT, Ado Edem, Aozaki sisters etc. Any idea where I could get those?
Ideally I think we could set up some sort of repository with materials as I'm still looking for Type-Moon Aces. I thought I'm pretty knowledgeable about Nasuverse but after reading all this shit I feel like a total newfag. I really think we could use a repostiory with all those materials and discussions

>>6595070
>At first I thought that Touko made a doll for her and she somehow also switched bodies
Judging by this image, you're probably on the right track.

>>6595130
Fate/Complete Material 3: World Material. Doesn't have anything to do with Character Material (though the second one is called Fate/Complete Material 2: Character Material)

>>6595154
Hah, so my theory is not completly off track? That's good, I though I just came up with an ingenious way of explaining it which is totally untrue.
Thanks for clearing up that thingy with Fate/Complete Material. It looks like I'm still missing a lots of books with info.

>>6595154
That image is most likely Nasu trying to troll his audience.
Anyway, I'm pretty sure Touko didn't become an expert puppetmaster until she enrolled in the Clock Tower and considering Mahoyo takes place when both are in High School...

>>6594979
>Circuits again

Circuits are not something you CREATE. Shirou's methods alone get him labeled as a heretic as far as the Mage Association is concerned. His entire method involved not only forging a pseudo circuit based entirely on his REAL physical nerves, but also by completely ignoring the Law of Equivalent Exchange (yes, it does exist in the Nasuverse). Rin denotes this if you take the option to listen in on her before Shinji calls you to the School.

If one could create THAT many circuits, even of poor quality, there'd be no reason whatsoever for all the blue blood families in the Mage Association. It's not like he won a circuit lottery, either--his quality is poor.

Also, reveal = they had them all along. Dormancy. Sleeping. Veiled and unnoticed. There's also the fact that circuits are soul nerves, meaning they were there from conception and growth and into delivery.

>>6595198
Hmmm. You do have a point there sir. As it was said earlier: we hopefully will know more after Mahoyo comes out.
By the way. Am I wrong assuming that at least one person here knows moonspeak well enough to be able to read it once it comes out?

>>6595216
>Rin denotes this if you take the option to listen in on her before Shinji calls you to the School.
That's more due to his projected pots and shit in the shed than anything else, I believe.
>>6595226
Probably, if not there's always Beast's Lair

>>6595236
Well, I'm hoping that this thread doesn't die until tomorrow. One more thing, could you point me to somewhere where I could get those materials you are referring to? I tried google but I failed, if not then I will probably resume my searching and report back.
Also, I'm not sure if anyone remembers but I have ripped apart Mahoyo's flash page sometime ago and uploaded contents here. It seems that they updated it and I'm going to get out some more images from there.
That said I'm off to bed, thanks for all info.

>>6595198
>IB can't not exist
>Kamijou Touma must always exist
>"Nothing" doesn't exist. What exists must always exist. Existence is, and non-existence cannot be. Generation and change is only superficial based on sensual perception and behind it, there is only one truth behind the phenomenon we see."
>MFW THIS KAMIJOU FAGGOT EMBODIES THE FIRST FUCKING MAGIC

>>6595280
And IB is merely a seal on some even greater power.

>>6594979
>Everyone reacted to his methods of creating them

You can't create new circuits. The very idea of a decaying line would be impossible, since they would just make new circuits along the line. Mages go to great lengths to tweak their genes so that their offspring may have a chance of being born with so much as one additional circuit per generation.

Shirou doesn't create circuits. He prepares and channels magic energy through a nerve instead of using his circuits, which is retarded, dangerous, slow and useless, but he didn't know any better.

>But keep in mind that this by itself does in no way means that he was born with them.

No, the fact that you can't fucking make new circuits does though.

>Of course he was born with his nervous system, but that doesn't mean his nervous system was always attuned to be able to double as circuits.

His nervous system is not attuned at all to double as circuits. That's why it takes him so much work to even begin casting, it's a retarded method you just don't use, period. He stops doing that as soon as Rin/Archer's arm shows him the right way to do things.

>And yet again, this still doesn't mean that circuits gain in this way are any good.

YOU CAN'T 'GAIN' CIRCUITS.

>>6595031
>His circuits were as explained, always made to be able to work with UBW. So they have a natural affinity towards it making it easier.

Circuits can't have an affinity towards jack shit, they're just tubes and nexuses. The MAGE has an affinity for something. Shirou's circuits aren't attuned to UBW, there's simply enough of them to use enough energy to cast UBW.

That's what Shirou meant: that his body is completely geared towards casting that spell, so there's no way he could have less capacity than necessary to cast the spell.

>>6595236
I had a whole paragraph denoting that but it was unrelated to my main point, which was Shirou was born with circuits just like Rin was born with circuits, just like Satsuki, etc. Just that in Shirou/Satsuki's case, there was no outside or inside stimulus to turn them ON until their late teens (Holy Grail War and death, respectively). With Shinji, his quality of circuit is what prevents him from using magic. He HAS circuits, they just suck horribly. Remember that Gilgamesh was fine with using him as the Einzbern grail key host--he had circuits and they were forcefully opened by said key.

But what you pointed out comes from Shirou ignoring Equivalent Exchange. Because his Reality Marble records all the necessary material (and is detrimental to his body to use--everyone seemingly ignores this). Not just of swords, but other things that Shirou focuses on.

Swords work better because that's his affinity. HIs body was made to forge swords--they're his element.

>>6595216
>Rin denotes this if you take the option to listen in on her before Shinji calls you to the School.

Projection doesn't completely violate equivalent exchange, it's magical energy converted into mattter, and the matter itself is illusory so it's eventuallt crushed by the world. It's a cheap knockoff resource.

Rin freaked out because she realized that Shirou had to have been using Projection to make them, and someone using Projection so well when they still can barely get a hang of Reinforcement is proposterous. Rin goes Head Full of Fuck when Shirou says he took a break from practicing Reinforcement by using Projection, because that's akin to someone taking a break from learning how to ride a bike by going moto racing.

>>6595344
I know, I was just pointing that out. Typed out another post clearing up mine, but captcha ate it and I didn't feel like typing it back up.

>>6595344
>Shirou ignoring Equivalent Exchange. Because his Reality Marble records all the necessary materia

It's all just magical energy. It's making something phsyical out of magic. Shirou's standard projection method is just manifesting the swords THROUGH projection.

You're misinterpreting that line to hell. Remember, that line was about teapots. Shirou didn't even know he had UBW, let alone how to deploy them, and there are no teapots inside UBW.

All Shirou does differently is the blueprint formation. Unless he's deployed UBW, he's using plain projection but with a different source of blueprint.

>>6595369
He also gets the neccesary materials from UBW needed to project as well for things stored, which is why every projection has a standard cost.

>>6595319
>Circuits have no affinity

That's incorrect. Each magi is born with an affinity, a magecraft far easier to cast and use than other magics. The entire Tohsaka line specializes in crystalized mineral storage, though I can't recall if this is WHY Zelretch favored them, or if it's because they were taught by Zelretch. Further, Rin's affinity lies in being a superb all-arounder, mastery over five magical elements. Sakura's is based in Imaginary Numbers, the Einzbern specialize in the Third Magic, and Shirou's specific affinity is swords.

When you DON'T have affinity or when the quality is poor all around, that's when you get cases like Shirou (who has no talent to really learn or use other magecraft), and Kariya Matou (who was little more than a bug battery for Berserker).

>>6594852
>This is never stated anywhere in all of the works and there is nothing to imply that being the case.

Did you even read the novel? This is brought up all the time. Rin explains in detail how she's making him use his regular circuits when she shoves the jewel down his throat, and Shirou realizes the effect later when he turns them on for the first time and realizes that it's been there all along. The casting of UBW had him realize that there were more circuits than he thought before. He quotes the exact number of circuits in HF.

>>6595378
The only cost is his own prana (and his health, but that's more because he's a moron of a magecraft user). He doesn't need to spend prana to KEEP items in existence unlike other magi. His items stay indefinitely. And the more he studies an object, the closer he can come to perfectly duplicating that object.

Which is why he can perfectly replacate Avalon's EX protection--he's unconsciously studied its magic for a decade.

>>6595384
Kariya would have been a decent enough Magus had he not gone through like 15 of "training" in several months.

>>6595390
Only mundane things like pots or whatever will stay indefinitely, as the World barely recognizes that as paradoxical whereas NPs will be crushed by the World after enough time. That's why his NPs break when his believe in them wavers just a bit.

>>6595384
Did you even read past the first fucking word?

Cicruits are just tubes, it's the mage that has an affinity, which is a natural independant trait of each individual lineage, and sometimes even each individual mage.

Second, you are completely off on what affinity even means. The Tohsaka don't have an affinity for containment or jewels, their art is related to using jewels. That's just what the stuff they developped does. There is no "jewel" affinity. Tokiomi's affinity was Fire, Rin is an Average One, Kayneth was Wind.

>>6595398
>Only mundane things like pots or whatever will stay indefinitely, as the World barely recognizes that as paradoxical whereas NPs will be crushed by the World after enough time.

Wow, you're making crap out of nowhere. This is pulled straight out your ass.

>That's why his NPs break when his believe in them wavers just a bit.

No, his NPs break when he wavers because that's how Projection fucking works. When the maker realizes his creation is fake and flawed due to inconsistencies between his image and the result, the creation is destroyed. The pots don't break because he has no reason to believe the pots are fake.

>>6595070
Supposedly they dyed their hair respectively in order to rebell against their respective titles, Red and Blue.

This however doesn't quite seem to make sense from the latest things showed, perhaps it has been retconned.

>>6595391
Kariya would never have made a decent magus. Try to remember that magi in the Nasuverse are, on average morally gray to black who think the ends always, ALWAYS justify the means. They operate in shadows, destroy lives, and kill or freeze anything they regard as a hindrance or a source to be studied. Most of the deadliest Dead Apostle Ancestors are former magicians.

Shirou, Rin, & Sakura are exceptions, not the rule. Rin, especially. She's far too kind-hearted for a Nasuverse magus. In that light, also recall Kariya disowned the Matous because he disapproved of both his brother's AND Zouken's methodology--which was typical of a magus.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s6WiJLvqdtg#t=4m30s

Shirou draws the conclusion as to why Rin fails as a magus. Further hammered home in Mind of Steel, where she specifically goes crazy after having to uphold the ideals of a magus.

>>6595390
>And the more he studies an object,

No. God no. UBW, pay some damn attention.

Shirou can't conciously study the weapons, he's not good enough for that. He says it flat out, creating weapons is way beyond him. He has every bit of information ready the very second he sees it anyhow, there's no difference bwteen a second or a hunderd years for him. The reason his projections vary in quality throughout the routes, and especially UBW, is because he comes to realize HOW his own shit works. He doesn't need to udnerstand the weapons any better, he needs to undesrtand HIMSELF better. Once he cracks that part, he can project every image with near perfection.

>>6595435
I meant ability wise not mentally.

guys

I've only finished Fate before, I'm going to start another route in 10 mins or so

UBW or Heaven's Feel? I have no real preference regarding Rin and Sakura. So I'll go with the first suggestion.

>>6595416
The foundation of the breaking is that human imagination is imperfect, so perfect replication is impossible. The examples of this are the mundane things that break because they're shells without cores (anything Shirou projects that AREN'T swords) or when the core itself is flimsy (Shirou takes note of the gap between his blades and Archer's in the basement while defending Saber).

>>6595400
No argument, just go read the sources.

>>6595453
Keep playing. There's your suggestion.

>>6595384
>The entire Tohsaka line specializes in crystalized mineral storage

That's not an alignment.

>When you DON'T have affinity
That's not possible.

>the quality is poor
The quality of WHAT? Alignments don't have "quality".

>cases like Shirou
Shirou has a deviant superspecialized alignment related to his origin. He's outside the Normal and Imaginary Element system, that's why he sucks at other types of magic.

>>6595453
UBW? It forces you to go in Fate->UBW->HF order, you know.

>>6595453
UBW route is next.

You need to finish Rin;s route before Sakura's

Hey guys,i have some question if u dont mind.
First one Can Shiki kill Ea or Avalon?

and i was wondering what did Merem Solomon mean by ''Satsujinki has no way of harming me''
And how can Altrouge ''mix between true ancestor and a dead apostle''?

And The last one, even though Altrouge defeated Arcueid,how can she lost Roa's first incarnation ? i know that Roa's first incarnation was stronger than any incarnation but didnt arcueid killed roa's first incarnation? i'm lost now,
Arcueid killed first inc. Roa and first inc. roa defeated Alt So Arcueid > Alt. or i'm wrong?

man my mind fucked.waiting for some reply.

>>6595446
Mental is a key factor in the process. Besides which, Matou's methods are brutal and invasive. If you mean someone else honestly teaching Kariya in a way he didn't loathe, then I guess you're right. But if you meant Zouken turning him into a capable magus, it likely wouldn't have happened even if Sakura wasn't being used as collateral. The Matou family magic/Magic Crest is brutal.

>>6595466
>>6595469

Oh. I was not aware.

coolthanksbrb

>>6595456
>No argument, just go read the sources.

>Magic circuit
>Magic circuits are the pseudo nerves that a magus has inside himself. These arepaths that generate magic energy and access the magic foundation engraved in the world. Magi make magic energy with the magic circuits and use the magic energy to run the magic foundation and thus put magery into effect. To do either of these, the magic circuits are necessary.
>As suggested by the description pseudo nerves, these are split into cores and lines joining these together and are spread throughout the body.
>The number of magic circuits are fixed at birth and the number won't increase by other than external factors.

>Magus alignment
>What determines what kind of attributes a magus' magic is going to be likely to have, or what kind of magic the magus is going to have good chemistry with, is going to be the element aligned with the magus.
>In addition to the five great elements of earth, water, fire, wind, and sky, there's the imaginary elements of Hollow and Nothing, for a number of seven.

There you go. Two different things. You're gonna have to wuote where your bullshit is from.

>>6595475
I meant more if he had gone through the training from the start rather than to just quickly turn him into a servant battery that wouldn't last much longer than the duration of the Grail War like what happened he probably would've been average at least.

>>6595456
>The foundation of the breaking is that human imagination is imperfect, so perfect replication is impossible.

That has jack shit to do with breaking. Read the fight against Berserker in Fate again, Shirou explains the spontaneous self-destruction as a result of the creator's realization that his conception differs from the product. "The sword that was supposed to be unbreakable broke".

>>6595319
I based it on the fact how he Shirou thought that his circuits would be able to hold because the said(thought), that the circuits were always made for this one spell.

So Shirou himself thought of them having an affinity like that.
We do know that circuits can be of greatly varying degrees of quality at least, Aoko is a perfect example of that as she only has one circuit.

But how can you be so sure they can't have any affinity towards anything?
Do you simply disregard the idea because you find it stupid?

In either way, I based it on what Shirou said when he summoned UBW.
In either case, there isn't a whole lot of different between his circuits having an affinity towards UBW, and Shirou alone having it.

The difference would only be that in one case his circuits aren't any special, and aren't great at anything even though Shirou can use UBW through them anyway due to having an affinity towards it.
Or the other were his circuits do have an affinity towards UBW and where they aren't anything special otherwise but where they can process UBW related things due to the affinity.

The end result would more or less be the same, so I can't even say that I even really see the point in arguing about it as it's such a nitpicky detail that doesn't exactly change anything no matter what happens to be the case.

>>6595456
>The foundation of the breaking is that human imagination is imperfect, so perfect replication is impossible.

That's two different unrelated things.

>The examples of this are the mundane things that break because they're shells without cores (anything Shirou projects that AREN'T swords)

No... are you forgetting that the stuff Shirou made in his shed is still there? Projections fade when the one who projected them recognizes them as fakes. The fact that they are not swords just means that they are phsyically flimsier and much lower quality, it has nothing to do with them fading or not.

>or when the core itself is flimsy (Shirou takes note of the gap between his blades and Archer's in the basement while defending Saber).

You're confusing the quality of the creation for its very existance. Whether it breaks from outside forces or not is a completely different matter. Projections fade on their own when their creator faces a contradiction in his image. Projections break against outside froces when they wre met with enough power to destroy them.

>>6595514
The things in the shed are NOT projection.

>>6595519
Pray tell, what are they then?

>>6595471
>even though Altrouge defeated Arcueid,how can she lost Roa's first incarnation

Nothing was ever said about Altrouge beating Arcueid, nothing at all. The hair was stolen sometime in a battle, that is all.

>Arcueid killed first inc. Roa and first inc. roa defeated Alt So Arcueid > Alt. or i'm wrong?

This is called affinity my friend. Just like how let's see; Blastoise beats Charizard, Venosaur beats Blastoise but Charizard beats Venosaur. Affinity plays a very important role in the Nasuverse.

>>6595513
>So Shirou himself thought of them having an affinity like that.

Were you even paying any bloody attention? The scene was about how he couldn't squeeze enough energy through them, you asshat. The point was that he could not possibly NOT have enough capacity to use that spell, so he realized there were more tubes there than he had previously noticed.

>>6595513
>Do you simply disregard the idea because you find it stupid?

No, I disregard it because you're pulling crap out your ass. Circuits are just channels, they're unrelated to the natural alignment of the magi himself.

>In either way, I based it on what Shirou said when he summoned UBW.

What you evidently misread.

>In either case, there isn't a whole lot of different between his circuits having an affinity towards UBW, and Shirou alone having it.

Again, that shit was about having a large enough hose to pass off all the juice. Reread the fucking scene already.

>his circuits aren't any special, and aren't great at anything

Circuits aren't special or great at anything. The mage is special or great at something. Circuits can be SPARSE or NUMEROUS. They're TUBES. The mage can be adept and channeling power like Aoko. Circuits don't have skills.

>>6595523
Reinforcement magic, the first thing explained by Rin... altering material properties has nothing to do with projection, which involves the creation of the object.

U mad.

>>6595528
in typemoon.wikia ''She once defeated Arcueid, taking her long hair as a trophy''

i dont know this is correct or not though.

>>6595519
Did you even read that scene?

>>6595541
Except the things in the sheds (e.g. the pots and shit) Shirou said he projected to take a break from failing at reinforcement.

>>6595541
Read the fucking scene, asshat. She realized those things were projected, why the fuck do you think she freaked out?

And before you reply with poorly thought out bullshit, answer that question: "Why did Rin freak out?". Because she realized he was using Projection.

>>6595388
>Did you even read the novel? This is brought up all the time.
If you were to actually read my posts my point may had gotten across.

>that it's been there all along
>all along
This is basically it.
Shirou has already trained as a magi for over a decade.
"All along" isn't at all necessarily his birth, it could just mean that he have had them there for all these years.

If Shirou were to have a whole lot of freaking 27 circuits at birth, without being bord from a magi lineage. Then that would have made him a complete anomaly and something that shouldn't exist. In a way it would kind of be as if Shiki were to be born but without all the incest stuff. There would be no reason or explenation and it would just be dumb.

And then there is the case where it actually is never said that he was born with them, nor anything that outright implies it. If anything did imply it then people, especially Rin, would have made a gigantic fuss over it.

"All this time" most likely does not stretch back all the way to his birth.

>>6595513
>Do you simply disregard the idea because you find it stupid?

You seem to have a horrible grasp at argumenting.

The shit you are saying is nowhere. We have descriptions of Circuits and Alignment. There is no relation mentioned between them. Any claim of them being related can be dismissed entirely unless you can dig upa quote that connects them.

And you seem to have completely misintrerpreted what Shirou's line about his circuits was about. He was talking about having enough capacity to channel all the energy. The scene is pretty damn explicit, just reread it.

>>6595545
Nope, that is incorrect, don't use the TM wikia. Use Jonnobi instead. Although the TM steals from Jonnobi, most of are just fan speculations and bullshit. All the entry in Plus Period says is this

>"Arcueid didn't cut her hair on her own, but it was taken away during a battle against a dead apostle called Altrouge, and until she recovers it, it won't grow back"

So yeah, the TM wikia likes to make up shit. I'll leave you the link to Jonnobi here, just in case.

http://members3.jcom.home.ne.jp/walachia/yougo-menu.html

>>6595532
>The point was that he could not possibly NOT have enough capacity to use that spell, so he realized there were more tubes there than he had previously noticed.
Yes, and? Is this supposed to conflict with whatever I wrote?
As I said, it barely makes a difference, no matter the case, the result is more or less identical.

>>6595545
Nope, that is incorrect, don't use the TM wikia. Use Jonnobi instead. Although the TM wikia steals info from Jonnobi, most of what they have is just fan speculation and bullshit. All the entry in Plus Period says is this

>"Arcueid didn't cut her hair on her own, but it was taken away during a battle against a dead apostle called Altrouge, and until she recovers it, it won't grow back"

So yeah, the TM wikia likes to make up shit. I'll leave you the link to Jonnobi here, just in case.

http://members3.jcom.home.ne.jp/walachia/yougo-menu.html

>>6595566
>"All along" isn't at all necessarily his birth, it could just mean that he have had them there for all these years.

YOU. CAN. NOT. MAKE. NEW. CIRCUITS. RETARD.

>Then that would have made him a complete anomaly and something that shouldn't exist.

SATSUKI YUMITSUKA. CIEL.

Shit happens. Are you new to Nasu's stories or what?

>And then there is the case where it actually is never said that he was born with them,

Holy shit you are a moron. YOU CAN'T MAKE NEW CIRCUITS. THE CONCEPT OF A DECAYING FAMILY LINE WOULD BE INCOMPREHENSIBLE. There would be no need to make Homunculi like Ilya, everyone would just create themselves fucking magic tank bodies like Ciel's. You think RISK is what stops mages from increasing their circuits? YOU CAN'T FUCKING DO IT.

>>6595584
>Yes, and? Is this supposed to conflict with whatever I wrote?

Yes, you're talking about his circuits somehow having an alignment or being somehow attuned to a specific element.

They're not. It was just a matter of capacity. Do you even follow your own damn arguments?

>>6595588
>There would be no need to make Homunculi like Ilya, everyone would just create themselves fucking magic tank bodies like Ciel's.
Except risk is a huge factor. Magi value their own lives above most else aside from their quest for true magick.

>>6595566
>Then that would have made him a complete anomaly and something that shouldn't exist. In a way it would kind of be as if Shiki were to be born but without all the incest stuff. There would be no reason or explenation and it would just be dumb.

...

Do you somehow think Shirou is the first character like that? Have you read Tsukihime?

>>6595597
Considering Shirou did it nearly every fucking night for 7 years without dieing it can't be all that risky compared to some of the other shit thaumaturgy requires.

>>6595609
>implying shiro didn't have the sheath of immortality inside him the whole damn time.

>>6595597
>Magi value their own lives above most else

Have you even read the fucking novel. It's the exact opposite. The very act of using magic is putting your life on the line. Rin and Shirou discuss this at length, mages are fundamentally insane people to channel foreign energy into themselves and turn their own bodies into magic furnaces.

Are you seriously fucking stupid to say that the risk that was surpassed by an untrained hack with no real skill at energy manipulation is ALL that stands before every mage on Earth being like Ciel? Do you have any idea how dumb that is?

>>6595617
There's a reason why the greatest mages haven't killed themselves practicing their magic: they go to their limits but continue to find ways around it that they deem safe.

Read F/Z you poor soul.

>>6595615
Aside from when Kiritsugu forcefully turned it on, Avalon wasn't active until Saber was summoned.

>>6595615
Avalon on its own is barely life support. The risk off ucking up his proceedure is blowing his nervous system the fuck up.

Why are we even discussing this anyhow, we know you can't make new circuits. We KNOW Shirou didn't make new circuits.

I mean, is this retard unable to do the math or something? Shirou practiced this EVERY NIGHT for close to ten years. That's about 3650 times. He would have about 3560 circuits now, not 27.

>>6595629
And when Rin forced it on as well.

>>6595625
>There's a reason why the greatest mages haven't killed themselves practicing their magic: they go to their limits but continue to find ways around it that they deem safe.

What "greatest mages" are those? Michael Roa Valdamjong, the dude that took a gamble at pissing off a True Ancestor just so he could complete his research? Fabro Rowan, the dude that both turned himself into a vampire AND made his body into a partly-self-conscious primal soup that dilluted his original persona into it?

This is fucking stupid. We are told that mages are inherently risk-takers.

>>6595649
Those two are batshit insane.

If you read F/Z, half of the combatants care more about surviving than anything. Fate/Extra also shows a similar concept with 2 of the masters.

>>6595586

dont know japanese,shit its sucks.thanks anyway.

>>6595597
I suppose you think the Makiri DECIDED that it was better to use worm-crests that WOULD DEFINITELY kill them, than using a method surviable by novices with no training that had an (Evidently not too bad) risk of killing them but otherwise leaving them perfectly healthy for the rest of their normal-length lives?

Roa himself, who has no business being scared of blowing his body up, mentioned that you can't increase your magic capacity.

>>6595660
>Those two are batshit insane.

Yet Roa, after becoming immortal, still believed it was impossible to increase one's magic capacity.

What was Roa afraid of, ruining his body? He'd just reincarnate.

>>6595677
Except that the family didn't exactly care for themselves. It's beem stated that the Marikiri family is outright brutal; this doesn't mean that any other Magi family are.

Avalon can't be touched.
MEoDP wouldn't be of much help either as it still wouldn't be able to be touched.

Avalon is less something that actually keeps things away, but it's more something that envelops the bearer inside avalon, a different dimension even true magic cannot reach. Naturally MEoDP wouldn't be able to rach it either, and there isn't antyhing "pushing" them away that could be killed in order to gain acess, because it's still sort of "natural", it's just dimensions intervening with eachother overlapping in some weird way.

If you were to stretch it a lot, then he might possibly through MEoDP if were to be able to kill the concept of distance or something crazy like that, but I don't know.

>>6595736
I never understood why people said Ryougi could kill the concept of distance. That literally makes no sense in every definition of the word.

>>6595736
MEoDP ignores all external factors. That's how Shiki was able to destroy someone who's body needed the explosive power enough to wreck one continent to even blow up. While it's true that Avalon can't be touched, MEoDP's target is the person itself. It can't revive what does not exist anymore.

>>6595747
But you can't target what isn't there any more, as that's what happens to anyone using Avalon. There are just simply no longer there.
>>6595740
I think it was less the concept of "distance" and more "being away from Araya" otherwise killing distance would fuck things up pretty badly.

>>6595747
But Avalon wouldn't need to revive the person.
You say the target would be the person itself and not Avalon. (that wasn't the original question by the other anon, but ok).

But even if that was the case, the knife (or whatever), would never be able to touch the bearer, so no death would be cut.
If not even True Sorcery can invade Avalon, then you can't convince me that MEoDP would be able to bend time and space in a way that would let it do what the sorcery couldn't.

Neither Avalon nor the bearer would be able to be reached, and both would be safe.

>We KNOW Shirou didn't make new circuits.
How?
Because "It can't be done!!" no source/proof given?

If Shirou didn't make lasting circuits, then he certainly did temporary circuits.
One thing for sure is at least that what he did for all those years sure wasn't simply revealing circuits, if that was the case then it wouldn't have been as life threatening as it was and parts of Rin's lessons wouldn't make sense if that was what he was doing from the beginning, even if he wasn't realizing it.

But if you accept the thought of temporary circuits, why can't you accept the thought of lasting circuits?
And when there is no proof, how can any of you be so sure?

>>6595747
Except that you have to get INTO Avalon to cut the user.
Ryougi runs up to Saber.
She activates Avalon.
>Saber is now no longer on earth
>Shiki cuts air
>???
>Nothing happens.

Hi, Since people here seems to know a lot about TM, I have a question, I always thought that Shiki doesn't kill anything by herself, she just sends "signals" to akasha that something mustn't exist and then akasha can adjust the world acording to this. is this correct?

>>6595827
Something like that.

>>6595827
That's pretty much it yeah.
And you know, Servants, are already recognized as something that mustn't exist and it's already in the process of adjusting the world acordingly, hence the massive mana cost of sustaining Servants

>>6595831
>>6595938
thanks, so this means:
a) the dots, lines don't exists in the physical sense ergo can't be blocked, and the point stabbing is just a mental confirmation of that signal

and

b) Shiki is an avatar of akasha, and in that sense she could be immortal (if she wants)

sorry if all of this is obvious, but I'm just a noob in the nasuverse

QUESTION!
I know where to find CM3, here: http://completematerial.pbworks.com/w/page/32479544/FrontPage

Where can I read CM1 and 2?

>>6596082
I don't have CM1 but I heard it was just the game CGs.

Nobody has translated any of CM2 as far as I know.

>>6596027
She is an avatar of Alaya, not Akasha.

>>6596191
And what Alaya is? I though she said that she is a part of Akasha in the novel.

Typemoon thread without Illyasviel should be considered as fake thread.

Loli FTW

>>6598105
Alaya is the will of humanity, just like Gaia is the will of the world.

>>6595799
>why can't you accept the thought of lasting circuits?

Because they are a completely and utterly different thing. For starters, the idea of "temporary circuit" is already assuming a lot that we know is definitelyf alse. It assumes the creation of a channel FIT for the flow of energy, as passing energy through magic Circuits is a relatively mundane task, especially in the amounts Shirou had access to. Shirou used a tube that was NOT FIT at all for this and required every scrap of his concentration to keep from killing him. Those are not "Circuits" in any way, they are just alternative paths. It's the equivalent of directing a car's fuel through a cardboard tube held together with duct tape. That's not "temporary" simply in the sense that it's transitory, but also in the sense that IT IS NOT in any way equivalent to a real circuit.

There is undeniable proof that:
A) There were no lasting changes REQUIRED by this process, just a temporary redirection of energy through a tube not meant to sustain it but capable of it through sufficient control.
B) He could not have possibly made anything permanent, as the number of circuits after 10 years would be astronomically high, as would the number of nerves taken up by the process over time that would have obliterated his motor skills. Moreover, he could not have created circuits at times and not at others, since the process was exactly the same evry time.
C) From his description of the process, there is an inherent difference between using his alternative channel and the real ones.

No circuits were ever made in those ten years. We KNOW this. Shirou merely redirected energy through other channels, channels that were potentially suicidal to use and suffered no distinct changes even after being used intensively for so long, as evidenced by the fact that Shirou is not a cripple after those ten years.

Also, ROA EXPLICITLY SAID THAT MAGIC CAPACITY CAN NOT BE INCREASED AFTER BIRTH.

New info from CM3.

Saber Alternative
Altria after being defeated by Hasan in the HF route and absorbed and incarnated by the black shadow is called Saber Alternative or Black Saber. Dark Saber receives an enormous amount of magic energy from blackened Sakura, and for that very reason, she can shoot Excalibur without limit (whether this means fire it unlimited times or something else, can't be sure). Because of that, she can overwhelm Hercules, who became a Berserker, even in a head-on fight. Losing her limitations and gaining in one way more powerful than she had when she was alive, she is probably, without dispute, the strongest Servant.

Dark Seibaa confirmed for being the strongest Servant.

New info from CM3.

Saber Alternative
Altria after being defeated by Hasan in the HF route and absorbed and incarnated by the black shadow is called Saber Alternative or Black Saber. Dark Saber receives an enormous amount of magic energy from blackened Sakura, and for that very reason, she can shoot Excalibur without limit (whether this means fire it unlimited times or something else, can't be sure). Because of that, she can overwhelm Hercules, who became a Berserker, even in a head-on fight. Losing her limitations and gaining in one way more powerful than she had when she was alive, she is probably, without dispute, the strongest Servant.

Dark Seibaa confirmed for strongest Servant.

>>6599578
>New Info
Nope.
Anyway that's only in raw stats. But she loses things like her Instinct which allowed Shirou and by extension would allow Archer to defeat her in close combat, where as Archer gets fucked up by regular Saber in close combat.

>>6599660
Doesn't she lose a rank in Agility, too? It's been a long time since I checked that.

>>6599682
I don't remember. And I don't have HF unlocked in my current batch of saves.

>>6599660
>like her Instinct which allowed Shirou and by extension would allow Archer to defeat her in close combat

You're assuming too much. Berserker didn't need such a thing to take out Archer, and Dark Saber is stronger than Berserker in meele and can shot infinite Excaliblasts.

Just take a look at the battle in the forest. Archer didn't stood a chance against her, if she would have wanted to kill him she could have do so.

>>6599660
This is of course only if one includes the restriction of not allowing Dark Saber to use any form of mana blasts.
Otherwise Archer wouldn't stand much of a chance.

Dark Saber+Avalon>Arcueid

>>6599682
Yes, but her STR and MGI are raised by two ranks to compensate it.

>>6599699
>>6599720
Strength and general prana were increased but:

1] Shirou never fought her face to face in a battle of power.
2] She couldn't use excaliblast spam inside the cavern.

Basically, her rank down in instinct was what allowed 3-Winged Crane Strike or whatever to overwhelm her on the 3rd wave. If she had her original instinct, then it would've been MUCH harder for Shirou to pull off that trick without her noticing.

>>6599737
She did use it in the cavern though. Bellerephon + Rho Aias vs. Excalibur, don't you remember?

>>6599756
But not repeatedly with regards to her mana increase, or the cavern would obviously collapse.

>>6599699
I meant under similar conditions as the battle in SLH. e.g. in the Cave/similar location and alone. Remember though, Archer managed to take out Berserker 6 times, while alone without needing to worry about the safety of anyone else. And Saber Alter only needs to be killed once.
In the encounter in the forest, Archer had Rin, Shirou, and Ilya with him as well. There's no way he'd be able to hold off Assassin, Saber Alter, and the Shadow by himself. Or at least I think those were who were there.
But I will admit my statement was far to broad initially.

>>6599714
>Dark Saber+Avalon>Arcueid

No, Arcueid has the power of 13 Servants, and she equals Type Moon in scale. I'm not sure if Dark Saber with Avalon can be considered to be on the level of a Type.

>>6599768
Yes but Berserker is insane, he is much easier to trick than Saber. Berserker doesn't even try to avoid most attacks, he actually takes them head on.

>>6599802
I agree, but it'd be a draw since Arc can't kill Saber anyways.

Shirou with Gatling Gun arms can beat everything else in the Nasuverse. Discuss.

>>6598900
It might be worth pointing out that even his 27 circuits aren't normal circuits.

>>6599682

Don't forget ride.

>>6599876
>It might be worth pointing out that even his 27 circuits aren't normal circuits.

What the fuck does that even mean? There aren't "kinds" of circuits. They're circuits.

>>6601491
But his circuits are his nervous system, or at least a part of it. That isn't the case with other magi who has legetimate pathways especially for magic.

In either case, saying that circuits are only circuits is a huge simplification.
Aoko could demonstrate that nicely.

>>6601511
>But his circuits are his nervous system

Are you fucking stupid or can't you read?

See >>6598900

Shirou goes into lengthy detail about how he has to use his nerves as conduits, restarting the process from scratch each time, taking about an hour every night for ten years, and putting his life at risk.

Then Rin unclogs his real tubes, he realizes how to use the real circuits and never has to do any of the aformentioned crap again.

Did you even fucking read Fate? Or UBW? What the fuck do you think the whole trigger and "realizing what was unused" scenes were about?

Using nerves as circuit, read circuit, singular, is retarded. It's suicidal, takes too long and he can't store any energy in them since the adjustments he makes are only good for one use.

And if you are retarded enough to ignore the MANY times this has already been posted, you can't make real, new, permanent circuits out of anything, else every mage everywhere would be walking along with Ciel's capacity if the process is so simple even Shirou can survive it about 3650 times while barely aware of what the fuck he's doing.

>>6601572
Nowhere has it been said that the temporary/improvised circuits were the nerve ones.

And never did Shirou speak about them as if they outright were his very nerves and that they weren't later after the others had been unlocked/revealed.

When Archer pointed out that Rin wouldn't understand the magic of someone who even uses his nervous system as his magic circuits, Shirou's circuits had already been revealed.

>you can't make real
Wasn't even commenting on it, so it's irrelevant and you could chill.

>>6601761
>When Archer pointed out that Rin wouldn't understand the magic of someone who even uses his nervous system as his magic circuits,
That line was probably more that Rin, who's naturally talented at thaumaturgy, would never understand someone like Shirou who needed to go to such ends to even be able to use thaumaturgy.

>>6601770
That's of course possible, noted.
Or, Emiya Shirou's circuits are basically just different in some way.

Wouldn't matter much either way however.
I would argue that there are crazier things in TM than if someone were to have some fundamentally different circuits.

Being connected to Akasha like that isn't exactly the norm either.
Nor is having a RM as a body.

To be honest I don't quite care much whatever the case is, because it doesn't exactly change anything.

>>6601770
I thought it was meant to imply that their thaumaturgy is different.
Their projections are already abnormal and Rin does not seem to understand how either of them actually does it.

Cm3 page
>The number of magic circuits are fixed at birth and the number won't increase by other than external factors.

Wait so this means they can increase

>>6602564
Does this mean that Zouken technically has 0 corcuits?

>>6601761
>Nowhere has it been said that the temporary/improvised circuits were the nerve ones.

Except for the fact that Shirou literally says he uses his nerve as a Magic Circuit when he practices at night, before he even found out that there were real circuits. Why the fuck do you think you even heard the word "nerve" to begin with?

>>6601761
>When Archer pointed out that Rin wouldn't understand the magic of someone who even uses his nervous system as his magic circuits

Now you're just making up crap. He said that a "genius like Rin would not understand the way someone like Shirou does things." As in, "She's smart and complicated shit looks simple to her, so don't expect her to understand the difficulties you go through with basic bullshit."

>>6601828
>I would argue that there are crazier things in TM than if someone were to have some fundamentally different circuits.

You seem to have an astoundingly poor grasp of argumentation. This means jack shit. You are arguing that something the story says is not true is true simply because there are weirder things around, even though the damn story shows no sign of it being true and outright contradicts the possibility.

>>6602564
>Wait so this means they can increase

That's what the worms do, they act as an additional system of circuits since the Matou no longer have theirs. You saw how that leaves the users though, pretty different than creating proper new conduits.

>>6603283
>Does this mean that Zouken technically has 0 corcuits?

Well, yeah, the dude has switched bodies more times than Roa. He IS for all purposes, a worm, and the worms can work as circuits. His real body is long gone.

>>6605033
>When Archer pointed out that Rin wouldn't understand the magic of someone who even uses his nervous system as his magic circuits, Shirou's circuits had already been revealed.
No, that's referring to the fact that Rin is pretty much a genius when it comes to magic and circuits; there would be no way she could understand someone doing something as basic and stupid as Shirou.

>Nowhere has it been said that the temporary/improvised circuits were the nerve ones.
Shirou said it himself and it's alluded to throughout the course of UBW and part of Fate.

When will Fate/Zero be finished translated?

how can shiro who is not even from a mage family have more circuits than the average mage

>>6605128
Before FHA

Oh I made a new thread by the way

>>6605439