/jp/ - Otaku Culture

Learn it from a young age

For fuck sake, why don't you people ever use >>>/lang/

I'd recommend immersion:
Buy a one-way ticket to Japan;
pack a suitcase.
Good luck.

>>6370341

This.

Or invest in a lot of courses. It's considered amongst the worlds hardest.

>The Foreign Service Institute (FSI) of the US Department of State has compiled approximate learning expectations for a number of languages. Of the 63 languages analyzed, the five most difficult languages to reach proficiency in speaking and proficiency in reading (for native English speakers who already know other languages), requiring 88 weeks, are "Arabic, Cantonese, Mandarin, Japanese, Korean". The Foreign Service Institute considers Japanese to be the most difficult of this group.

I heard "studying" is supposed to be quite a good way.

Immersion, yeah. Language learning requires dedication, you know, so learn all those kanjis, don't half-ass them, read stuff, learn by example, WRITE in Japanese. One thing is reading memory, the other is writing memory, so you must train them both seperately.

がんばってね！！

>>6370367
I find sitting in a room with other English speakers pointless.
You'll all be making the same stupid mistakes and not noticing.

Listen to Pimsleur tapes. Then go to Japan.

/jp/ - Spending so much time finding out what would be the 'best' way to learn Japanese they could've learned most of it if they had just settled with anything and actually started LEARNING

>>6370356
>>6370376
Hell, that's how I learned english...

The best way to learn Japanese is to read doujinshi with a dictionary in your hand and translating everything, word by word, sentence by sentence.

And then shopping the translation onto scans and posting them on /jp/.

>>6370406
you first need to know grammar structure at least for that

>>6370406
I think you have a hidden motive for saying that.

>>6370406
Hell, that's how I learned japanese...

>>6370415
助けてくれ、タエキンさん！！！
http://www.guidetojapanese.org/learn/grammar

also go get some real classes, it'll pay off.

>>6370416
No, I'm just a friendly Anonymous trying to help my fellow posters. Hell, I may even find you guys some good doujinshi that will teach you a lot (and, by a total coincidence, have not yet been translated).

You can't learn a foreign language to a decent level without using it in everyday conversations. That's why my english sucks - 4chan is the only place I use it since my college english course ended.
We got some nice books on japanese learning here in Russia, widely acknowledged as the best way to learn it. Can't help you with english-japanese, sorry. But good luck and don't just stop here - find at least something and start learning.

>>6370474
You can learn to read and understand Japanese almost as well as your native language without ever talking to anyone or writing on a regular basis. I never practiced writing and I can easily pass as a native speaker on Shogi or Go servers too, which isn't saying too much as the kind of language used when chatting is pretty simple.

>>6370474
Uh, your English is perfectly fine. And yes, you can learn a foreign language without conversations. It will just mean it will be harder for you to talk to people, maybe you'll even simply need to learn it separately afterwards. Every other language skill can be acquired alone, by yourself.

>>6370433
i love this guide. its very competent

Kill yourself with an eel roll stuck up your ass. Be reborn as a nip.

Good luck.

>>6370532
he may be referring to his spoken english. i can read, understand, and probably write japanese fairly competently, but i'd flounder in an actual conversation because i haven't had a need to practice fast communication with the language in a long time.

and although he appears to have a better grasp of english composition than 75% or more of native speakers, he still does have some minor grammar errors in that post(whether that is a result of him typing casually or not i can't say).

>>6370474
can i live with you

>>6370580
seriously. who does a grammar check while using 4chan?

>>6370355
its good to be born middle european whose language is ridiculously difficult. I find Japanese fairly easy aside for the fact that you have to learn shitload of kanji

>>6370474
You kinda disproved yourself with your own post.
It's perfectly fine English.

Step 0: Be motivated. You can't learn anything unless you want too/have a reason. I took 4 years of spanish and can't even remember how to count to 100. I took 3 years of japanese and can
speak/write/read quite well, although I am still far from "fluent"

Step 1:
Read Tae Kim's blog (Atleast learn the kana and a few particles)
http://www.guidetojapanese.org/learn/grammar

Step 2: Get real university level classes, sorry but trying to learn yourself is stupidly difficult, and the best you will ever achieve is a low level of reading comprehension.

Step 3: Be active in class, speak your mind, ask questions, talk to classmates. If you are learning something new and think "Could I also say it like "this"? Ask your teacher.

Step 4: Pay the fuck attention to grammar, especially beginning grammar, it just gets stupidly odd at some points, but in general if you can grasp it early on you won't have that much trouble. Trying to teach yourself the nuances of grammar would be a pain in the ass, since you really have no way of checking if you are doing something correctly.

Step 5: Continue teaching yourself (Mostly vocab and depending on the amount of work you are doing(ex, if you are also taking other courses and not just japanese), a small amount of kanji, and by small I mean maybe 2-5 of the new vocab words you are currently learning) Having a strong vocab in correlation to the current grammar rules will be very nice and allow you to experience more "examples" of grammar rules.

Step 6: When learning vocab make FUCKING SURE you give yourself MULTIPLE sentences in which it is used. You are not going to remember some word that is used seldomly, but if you memorize a sentence with it, it is much more likely it will stick in your mind.

Step 7: Go to Japan. I highly recommended studying abroad, it will be a good life experience that really helps you learn the language by interacting with Japanese students learning english, and random Japanese people who vary in degree of helpfulness(generally, they are nice but kind of just want you to go away..)
If you can't study abroad, take a 1 way ticket there for the summer or winter or something and just do your best, hope you have lots of money.

Step 8: When you get back make sure you have people to talk too, not using a language daily is a great way to forget it, even playing VNs/listening to music is not enough...You need to speak it. Also keep learning kanji because kanji is pretty much the end of the line for studying.

>>6370355
every language is hard to learn when you're english

>>6370710
spanish and german really aren't

http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com

Click on Table of Contents, read through all that stuff and you're good.

>>6370713
barbarian languages don't count

>>6370723
>spanish
>barbarian

Mexican spanish maybe.

>>6370693
>Step 2: Get real university level classes, sorry but trying to learn yourself is stupidly difficult, and the best you will ever achieve is a low level of reading comprehension.

this guy

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heinrich_Schliemann#cite_note-4

disagrees

>>6370767
Well I doubt /jp/ are super geniuses, Although their small amounts of ocd/autism may help in memory retention. Regardless you are not learning to speak Japanese fluently in 6 weeks regardless of what methods you use.

Would be awesome though.

>>6370787
you know. it was just an example to show that learning language is something that difficulty varies for each person because it mainly depends on personal predispositions and devotion.

>Step 2: Get real university level classes, sorry but trying to learn yourself is stupidly difficult, and the best you will ever achieve is a low level of reading comprehension.

Complete bullshit. Taking classes can help you keeping yourself motivated but that's about it. You'll do nearly all the work at home anyway and with the internet it's easy enough to ask people when you got questions. People who study Japanese at a university and don't do more work than they need for class will always have a very low level of understanding, even those who major in translating.

Do get classes, it's fun and will most likely help motivate you to study, but studying by yourself works fine too.

>>6370787
>you can't learn Japanese properly in 6 years
>rage
>oh wait weeks
>fucking ADD

>>6370787
>Schliemann claimed that it took him six weeks to learn a language
>claimed
it's best not to take everything you read seriously. even if there were other accounts of it, that doesn't serve as proof that it's actually as it says. keep in mind that people had a lot less to do those days, now we have instant gratification forms of entertainment which make it so even people with talent don't necessarily become as good as they could be without said distractions.

and the languages he learned were in large part latin/greek based. if he had a list of languages from, say, korea, indonesia, africa, etc. then that would be really impressive. not to say that knowing so many languages is not at all impressive, but i can see it within the realm of possibility if one has... nothing more appealing to do on a daily basis.

>>6370787
>Schliemann claimed that it took him six weeks to learn a language
>claimed
it's best not to take everything you read seriously. even if there were other accounts of it, that doesn't serve as proof that it's actually as it says. keep in mind that people had a lot less to do those days, now we have instant gratification forms of entertainment which make it so even people with talent don't necessarily become as good as they could be without said distractions.

and the languages he learned were in large part latin/greek based. if he had a list of languages of more varied types then that would be really impressive(although having arabic/turkish/russian on the list does sway me a little). also, it's not really stated what it means by "he could converse..." i "could converse" in japanese in high school, but i was far from my definition of "fluent."

not to say that knowing so many languages is not at all impressive, but i can see it within the realm of possibility if one has... nothing more appealing to do on a daily basis.

I don't know about Japanese (yet), but I would have never taught myself English if I relied on classes, they are ridiculously useless.

The problem with classes is that you're doing what the course plan demands, not what you (i) want to learn (ii) are ready to comprehend at the moment. They're either going to slow you down by breaking your natural learning curve, or discourage you because what they demand is what you're not ready for yet. Hell, more often than not they're teaching you bullshit you're going to need to forget as soon as possible.

Sure, you're going to need conversation partners if you want to learn to speak with people, but hey, we're on /jp/, it's not like we're ever going to leave our homes, what's the point.

people who say you don't need classes/human interaction have never never had professional classes/real life language partners.

If you can afford it take classes, they don't slow you down or whatever retarded shit people are saying.

>do most of the work at home anyway
>work
the "work" is just writing over and over or studying, the classes is where you actually are introduced too and "learn" new things, and are shown examples, given situations, and hopefully get an immediate chance to try the new knowledge on a partner.

Stop being jelly of people who taken courses, its embarassing

>people who say you don't need classes/human interaction have never never had professional classes/real life language partners.

I did take classes, as I said. I just was ahead of them all the time because you do extremely little in class and have to work (that includes doing the grammar) at home anyway.

>>6371078
>Stop being jelly of people who taken courses, its embarassing

Stop rationalizing wasting your money on courses, it's embarrassing.

>>6371078
i would have to say i disagree with you.

it is possible for classes to slow you down. classes must be tailored to the lowest common denominator of the people attending it(to a point), so many people are capable of learning much faster than what they can get sitting in classroom listening to a lecture.

however, i would say that having a tutor or professor is a huge benefit. the speaking practice is also invaluable, but keep in mind many people aren't as interested in tackling that right away which may cause them not to benefit as much(in their mind) from taking classes.

>>6371149
it also depends greatly on the quality of the instructor, and their teaching philosophy.

the ideal situation would be to have a very good personal tutor, but that's not an option for most people(especially the antisocial NEETs here).

Even if you're living in Japan and trying to make conversation with people, it's still a difficult language to learn. Speaking is also rather different than reading/writing; what you're likely to hear doesn't correspond all that much with the written form.

For kanji studies, I like http://kanjidamage.com/ - but it won't do you a lick of good without knowing at least the basics of grammar.

>>6370787
You're dealing with a large amount of autistic NEETs in /jp/, so it's easy for them to pick up something if they have even a slight interest in it. I used to be one until I started taking a Japanese class. Even now, I still feel like a NEET because I'm not actually learning anything. Beginning language classes are a dumb thing to brag about, but I'm at the top of my class and my teacher thinks Japanese is spoken in my house.

In reality all I do is watch huge amounts of anime, listen to Japanese music, and browse Japanese websites with Rikaichan.

>>6371149
Well, you can really learn as fast as you want even when taking classes. Also for speaking practice went pretty much just like "now please discuss this with your neighbor" when you knew much too few words to properly discuss anything and the guy next to you knows even less than yourself.

Self-study will only take you so far.
I studied Japanese on my own for around 7 years and you know what I missed out on learning? Proper grammar and 'polite' forms. Understanding the origin of contracted forms. Very basic things that are taught in any intro-level university Japanese course. In other words, you'll be fine at reading the average /jp/-loved doujinshi or /a/nime, but good luck with trying to talk civilly and not sounding retarded with native Japanese people.

If you want to self-study, go ahead, but I'd recommend talking to the professor of Japanese at local institutes to see if he/she would let you sit-in in the lectures to supplement your studies.

>>6371217
After self-study it wasn't hard to pick up on the polite form for me.

>>6371217
You should have gotten yourself a few good books. You aren't going to learn anything in class that's not in the text book you are using anyway unless you ask the teacher, and nothing stopped you from googling anything you don't know or asking at a proper forum (hint: do not ask /jp/ anything about Japanese, ever).

The one thing you cannot learn with selfstudy is proper writing and speaking. You can learn everything about grammar yourself just fine.

>>6371205
i have taken classes. in a perfect world where you spend all day on japanese, i would not argue with you, but if you apply logic and a bit of common knowledge of human nature(you might disagree with me on this point) to this, you'll see where you're a little mistaken.

if you take a class and you're capable of moving much faster than its pace, then there's no way you're learning faster than you could alone(up to a certain level of complexity and peer level, i would say). when taking a class, you have to:

a) transit to school and back
b) listen to the lecture
c) do the homework and any other assignments/projects given to you

while this may not seem like a large amount of time, in a given day it could amount to 2-4 hours for a university course. in addition, the homework may be useless if you don't really need the extra repetition.

this is sort of where human nature/psychology comes in. most people are only willing to dedicate a certain number of hours to a single thing in one day, and you've just used up 2-4 hours of your time on japanese for that day. if you were capable of learning much faster than the pace of your class, that probably means you've(possibly drastically) reduced the number of things you would have learned that day otherwise.

of course, if you're a maniac who's willing to spend 8-12 hours a day learning japanese, then this discussion may be different, but courses usually do imply spending a lot of time going over things which you may have already mastered, since the instructor has to slow down the class if your peers have not. it's not uncommon to spend a multiple days to a week on a single grammar principle, depending on the level of the course.

still, having a fluent person/professional who is paid to review your work and answer your questions is invaluable.

>>6371288
in summary, what i'd really like to say is that:

courses can be good, but it depends on

a) your learning speed/dedication relative to that of your peers
b) the quality of your instructor
c) your psychology; the time spent taking a class and doing everything related to it may be a significant factor to you, and if the class doesn't move as fast as you can then you're not using your time as effectively as you could(assuming you're in a simple course where you're not learning anything you couldn't understand by yourself)

and that dedicated, motivated self study is a better use of time than taking a slow-moving university course, especially if you only have a limited amount of hours to study japanese or are the type to focus very hard and move quickly for a short amount of time when learning.

>>6371226
俺様ですね？

>>6371288
in summary, what i'd really like to say is that:

courses can be good, but it depends on

a) your learning speed/dedication relative to that of your peers
b) the quality of your instructor
c) your psychology and circumstances; the time spent taking a class and doing everything related to it may be a significant factor to you, and if the class doesn't move as fast as you can then you're not using your time as effectively as you could(assuming you're in a simple course where you're not learning anything you couldn't understand by yourself)

and that dedicated, motivated self study is a better use of time than taking a slow-moving university course, especially if you only have a limited amount of hours to study japanese or are the type to focus very hard and move quickly for a short amount of time when learning.

i would recommend courses to people, but if you are dedicated or your pace is faster than most people and you are looking to get into the language, i might recommend trying to self study and test out of early courses.

I don't know what kind of shit "university" you guys are talking about, but our classes are taught by native speakers who are really nice but who also adhere to a strict schedule, if you are falling behind you get outside class help, but class moves very fast.
My first course nearly half of the white kids (about 4, 80% of the class was chinese) dropped out as soon as we got to kanji.
Maybe you guys are talking about highschool?

>>6371288
Yeah well, I was attending university anyway so it made little difference. I guess depending on what you do, how much spare time you have and how much time you are willing to spend on Japanese a day it can slow you down.

I am both excited and worried about taking my first Japanese class. Just made it into a really good university and the thing I am most looking forward to is finally taking all of my self-learned Japanese and seeing how it fits into an actual course. Probably going to take a test or something to see where I fit into the class progression. Hopefully it will be a fun and rewarding experience, and not a complete bore or a pain in the ass.

>>6371325
Pretty much the same here, except the class is all Coreans and Chinese except for me, and maybe 4 others. All of which except for me out of the non-asians students are doing poorly now that we've moved onto kanji.

>>6371325
i'm sure if you're at a very good university with a good professor classes are probably nothing but beneficial.

but most people aren't blessed with that.

also, i'm not really sure what your definition of "fast" is, from any perspective. i'm not even precisely sure what mine is, but i can tell you it's not fit by the courses i've encountered so far.

>>6371340
It will be boring and annoying since you already know most of the stuff and have to deal with other people who don't know any Japanese.

1) Tae Kim
2) electronic Dictionary
3) Yotsubato

My class moves pretty slowly and is run by a native speaker. It's the only time I ever get to speak Japanese with other people though, and it's nice to be able to ask questions. We're working on grammar forms mainly.

>>6371353
Well, I figure at worst I can just bring a book or something and read. If I really know the language so much better than everyone else, then all assignments should be a breeze. So, in the end I still get some credit hour padding.

I personally think electronic dictionaries are a waste of money by now. You can just get a PDA or iPhone or whatever and install a dictionary and probably still pay less, but can use the device for all kind of other things. Also you need to be careful with all those convenient stuff like dictionaries that find kanji you wrote on a touchscreen or Rikaichan, if you depend on these you'll never learn the language properly.

>>6371370
It's not that bad. My classes are three hours long but I don't really find myself being bored often. I guess it helps that the teacher is very outgoing and the learning material is also humorous (atleast to me). There was one assignment where you had to listen to an audio file, and it was a girlfriend accusing her boyfriend of cheating while the boyfriend tried to save his hide by saying he was at the library until 11 PM and then went to the cafeteria to eat before returning home at 1 AM. She ended up dumping him after a bit of yelling. There's also a stereotypical black guy in the book and every time he appears I can't help but smile a bit. He just seems so out of place.

>>6371370
if you're able to multitask studying, that's not a bad idea(if that's what you meant by bringing a book--otherwise, you're still wasting your time).

but the task work in some courses still takes time and effort even if it is too easy for you, but whether you get that or not will probably depend on your professor.

>>6370353
where the hell do i get to that link from 4chan?

>>6371434
The front page.

I'm taking Japanese 1A at College and it's pretty easy so far. Learned the Kana, about 30 Kanji, and lots of vocabulary/grammar so far.

You guys can never take it easy. Courses are fun, and it is never a bad thing to have fun while learning. On the other hand, if you are pretty anti social, teaching yourself will be much faster provided you have good intrinsic motivation.

Can't we all be friends?

>>6371514
i don't really sense any hostility going around here, except for maybe one post.

ultimately it comes down to judging your university/potential professors, knowing yourself and your level of dedication/motivation, and how far you can easily take the language on your own.

it also depends on what you want to do with the language. if you're not immediately concerned with speaking to people in japanese, a course may not be so valuable a use of your time since they focus on speaking in large part.