/jp/ - Otaku Culture

Like it matters. Umineko is such a mess at the moment, Ryukushi will degrade and simplify all of his characters to make Yasu sympathetic.

Bern is just a standard mustache twirling villain who exists only so we don't start to question the moral implications of setting off a bomb because of a childhood crush.

>>6157218

People who thought Umineko will be some super masterpiece that would make Agatha Christie's books look like Detective Conan were clearly delusional, but I really doubt it will be so simple.

>>6157218
I don't think you actually read EP7, because it's stated outright that whether you want to sympathize with Yasu or not is up to you. Ryukishi's not forcing you to do anything.

>>6157301

Who the hell is going to sympathize with that thing? Yasu is a pathetic mastermind.

EP8 will try to make us sympathize with Kyrie and Rudolf, not Yasu.

>>6157316
I sympathize with Yasu, as do many other people. If you don't, that's your business.

>>6157321
How the fuck can you sympathize with her?
Her motive is fucking vapid, everything about her just scream LOOK AT ME I'M THE CENTER OF THE WORLD.

>>6157338
You don't even understand what her motive is.

>>6157279
I was unfortunate enough to read And Then There Were None first and now all of Agatha Christie's other works seem horrible by comparison. It's like she sticks one of her trademark detectives in just to sell her books that have weak plots and dull characters.

>>6157359

To be honest mystery genre is pretty bad. Her books are still the best in that pile of mediocrity.

>>6157346
I do, it's spelled quite well in episode 7.
And don't say we shouldn't know what her motive is, the game directly says that the motive should be obvious if you read every episodes.

>>6157346

"I can't be loved because my dick/uterus was smashed and a little boy forgot his childish promise so I will kill everybody and enter my nonexistent utopia".

What a great motive.

>>6157316

>EP8 will try to make us sympathize with Kyrie and Rudolf, not Yasu

Well considering most of Yasu's story is told. Of course Kyrie and Rudolf should get more focus.

I personally don't symphatise that much with Yasu.

>>6157218
>Ryukushi will degrade and simplify all of his characters to make Yasu sympathetic.

Yasu is already phathetic enough. Ryukishi doesn't need to do anything to his characters to make Yasu more "tragic"

What gender is Yasu anyway?

If Leon is Yasu if Yasu wasn't thrown off a cliff by Natsuhi, then surely Yasu would be male? Or was that some weird rule-63 kakera?

still cant believe beatrice was just some multi personality bitch who has a sad because all men want is her flesh...

it does make rereading the convos between kanon/shannon and beatrice really interesting, but still, what a shitty twist.

also, was it ever told what marias rose was all about?

>>6157410

Technically Lion's gender isn't confirmed. Many people here believe Leon's a guy although I heard many of the Japanese comunity thinks Lion's a girl.

>>6157380

B-but Yasu wants to have Battler babies! how can you be so cruel to a person who lost their reproductive organ ;_;

pretty much everything about Yasu is fishy. Even its motive and the" lul I can't "love" but it's because because of a fall from a cliff".
There is a lot of mess to clean here.

pretty much everything about Yasu is fishy. Even its motive and the" lul I can't "love" but it's because of a fall from a cliff".
There is a lot of mess to clean here.

>"Bern was born from Rika's leftover memories" theory

It's false anyways. If R07 said Bern has no relation to Rika, then Bern has no relation to Rika.
It's as simple as that.

>>6157437

Yet people still keep adding connections to Rika and Bern.

>>6157437
I don't remember him saying this about Bern, link please?
I just remember him saying that there was a character named Bernkastel in higurashi, but no Lambdadelta

>>6157437

He never said anything like that.

>>6157443
Obviously, she herself indirectly stated, that she only helped to set up the game. If Lambda did not play the game but knew what it was about, what was its purpose and how it was resolved, it's just "So you want to be a god. That's easy - the bigger obstacle you overcome, the higher you are. I am giving you an absolute obstacle and I guarantee that it can be overcame. Somehow. GLbai."

have none of you read saikoroshi-ren? rika and bern were the same, rika made bern, she named her older, travelling the kakeras personality after the wine that kept her going.
afterwards she got rid of that side of her and rika and bern became seperate. also read the beginning of minagoroshi-hen, Bern and Rika are talking but still refer to eacother as "me"

also ep6 also strongly implies bern was rika. (bernkadtels hell, old game between lambda,featherine and herself)

>>6157479

Frederica Bernkastel has a significantly different personality than Umineko's Bern.

>>6157489
deeper voice
has a more sophisticated style of speech
total bitch, is abusive

seem the same to me

>>6157479
I think that Bern was supposed to be the 'reader' of Higurashi, by what was written in the 'Connecting Pieces' thingy and in which way.

Also, I have a theory that Bern is completely powerless inside kakeras where the disaster did not happen, which is why Rika is almost unable to think and make any sense out of Saigoroshi. That is because her base as a girl predicting future is later written in a novel by Akasaka, everybody is dead and the reason for her knowledge of that is as good as lost. The former would also mean that in Minagoroshi ends, she forgets about other worlds and returns to 'just Rika'. That's enforced by how you never know for how long do they know each other with Hanyuu - it's supposedly since youth, and Rika has to make the arrangements with Akasaka fairly early for his piece to fall in, but the time given in Matsuribayashi is, if I remember correctly, not even a week.

Hell, the whole thing could've been written by Akasaka for greater justice.

>>6157501 *in Matsuribayashi ends, she forgets

god fucking damnit

>>6157208
Agreed. Umineko is a series of fictional writings within a world, unlike Higurashi where there really were multiple worlds so I don't see how the same character could transition between the two. And even if we were to accept that Higurashi and Umineko share the same universe, as opposed to Ryukishi simply putting Higurashi references in Umineko which is what I think is the case, Rika is the detective of Higurashi. She represents the human side, so how could she have been a witche's piece that got caught in a logic error which is what the origin of Bern is said to be?

>>6157501 Rika has to make the arrangements with Akasaka fairly early for his piece to fall in, but the time given in Matsuribayashi is, if I remember correctly, not even a week.
>"you will now experience recreating the story from Hanyuu's point of wiew"

Meaning Hanyuu really created all of the fucked up kakeras. Also, anyone wondering why did she never tell Rika what is the base of this or that kakera as in "I saved Rina to see what would happen" or, well, outright who is the culprit since she supposedly flies through the walls and in Meakashi we see Rika working her way in a loop through half luck and half elimination method?

Enjoy your troll.

>>6157521
>how could she have been a witche's piece that got caught in a logic error

Lambda granted Miyo the power of certainty, Hanyuu kept resetting the world to save Rika, Bern was created from Rika (turning Rika into Bern's piece) and defeated Lambda's certainty.

>>6157532
hanyuu didnt know who killed rika because their senses were linked, and takano put rika to sleep before she kills her, except in minagoroshi-hen and thats why afterwards in matsuribayashi-hen hanyuu remembers who the culprit is.

or shes just a dick.

>>6157532

There is a reason why Bern hate Aurora.

>>6157501
But in the start of Minagoroshi-hen Bern talks to the reader and in Matsuribayashi-hen she also addresses the reader directly.

And I think the reason Rika is confused in Saikoroshi-hen is simply because that she has spent over a century in worlds governed by the rules X, Y and Z and then she ends up in a world that completely betrays her assumptions about it. It's natural she'd be confused.

In of the TIPS Hanyuu says that she was the first person Rika saw when she was born. Hanyuu had been with Rika since birth.

And I don't think Akasaka ever wrote a novel. The book he wrote with Oishi was a collection of theories and information they had collected based on what they saw in Himatsubushi-hen. The two of them were collecting that information and publishing it in the hopes that someone would manage to use it as a base to investigate and find out the truth.

>>6157532
Except that we have access to Hanyuu's thoughts and she honestly wants to help Rika. The sole reason she's moving Rika's memories between worlds is because she wants Rika to live a full life instead of dying young.

As for why in Matsuribayashi-hen Rika had warned Akasaka, I think it's because Hanyuu can use existing kakera (as we see in the start of Matsuribayashi), which enables them to have a world where Rika had warned Akasaka. Or maybe she just sent Rika to a world where another universe-hopping Rika with prior knowledge of what would happen already resided.

And the reason that Hanyuu doesn't know is simply because it would wreck the story if she did and there would be no murder mystery if a deus ex machina came and revealed it.

>>6157521
Battler is the detective of Umineko. He represents the human side. Yet he was a piece of Bern until ep5.

>>6157548
Trying to link Hanyuu and Aurora makes no sense. Hanyuu is a god, not a witch, and she's honestly trying to save Rika and they both truly love one another. Their relationship isn't at all like that of Bern and Aurora. Ryukishi simply used some features from Hanyuu as a Higurashi reference, just as with Okonogi and Bern.

>>6157590
But how can the human side be caught in a logic error? Bern would have had to been a piece of the witch side for her to be trapped in one and that makes no sense for Rika since she is the detective of Higurashi.

>>6157603
Hanyuu was trapped along with her.

As in, Battler is trapped and the pieces stop moving.

>>6157538
In Higurashi Rika is Bern though (until the end of Saikoroshi-hen at least). Rika is the one that comes up with that name to describe herself. When Bern says she's not Rika she's simply referring to the original Rika before she died. After all, Rika tells Rena that she's not Rika at the landfill in Tsumihoboroshi-hen so Bern must use it with that meaning. And in Minagoroshi-hen Bern wonders who's killing her not Rika.

>>6157612
Does that include the pieces of the human side?

In any case, there is no mention of witches in Higurashi. There is no reason to think Rika is trapped in a witches' game. Doing so is simply applying things from Umineko onto Higurashi to prove a connection between the two, which is circular reasoning. Rika may call herself a witch, but that's because because by moving between worlds she has transcended humanity. And, while she uses game metaphors, there's no evidence she's playing a game. People use game metaphors in real life too after all. Rika is simply influenced by the fact she spends most of her free time playing games with her friends. What I think happened is that Ryukishi decided to take the witch and game metaphors from Higurashi and expand them and make them central in Umineko. The fact that these can be interpreted in such a way in Umineko does not mean that the same interpretation is valid for Higurashi or that they had the same significance in it.

In reality we know shit about Bern's origins.

I think something happened after the known story of Higurashi that we don't know about yet. Like Hanyuu refusing to let Rika die a natural death or some another tragedy in Hinamizawa.

>>6157647
But Hanyuu specifically says at the end of Saikoroshi-hen that next time Rika dies she'll let her die a natural death and that Hanyuu will also pass on at that time and Rika accepts that. I suppose you could posit that Hanyuu was lying, but there's no reason to think that thinks happened any different.

>>6157208
its just fanserive ryukishi set for Higurashi fans.........

Bern and Lambda does not have any kind of relationship with Rika or Takani

>>suddenly, Rika was Lambdadelta's piece and Frederika bernkastel in higurashi have nothing to do with Bernkastel of Umineko

At least it would be entertaining/surprising.

>>6157671
Personally I think that the two are separate. Besides, even within Umineko the metaworld is simply an invention of the murderer which s/he included in the messages left in the bottles and which was elaborated upon by Hachijo.

I think Bern is a separate character from the one in Higurashi, just like Okonogi is. The Umineko Okonogi looks almost the same as the one in Higurashi but they must obviously be separate characters since nether Okonogi has any supernatural powers so there'd be no way for him to move between worlds even if that were possible.

>>6157663

Except it's obvious from Lambda's diary that they do.

>>6157701
No there isn't. Her diary establishes a connection between her and Bern, but neither Myoko or Rika are ever mentioned.

>>6157694

Why would Okonogi need supernatural powers? Human named Okonogi exist in all kakeras, but he don't have to lead the same life as the one from Higurashi. Every kakera is slightly different.

>>6157718

Or he became a businessman after yamainu were disbanded.

>>6157718
Is there a reason to think kakera exist in Umineko? They only appear in the narratives of "Beatrice" and Hachijo after all.

But my point was that the tow Okonogi have no connection, which sets a precedent for the two Berns as well.

>>6157717

It's beyond doubt that she is talking about Miyo.

>>6157729
That would imply that the events of Higurashi happened in Umineko which simply isn't the case. Battler says he has read Higurashi and it was a mystery novel. He even refers to a discussion Keiichi had with his mother in Tatarigoroshi-hen, so it couldn't have been a book written by Oishi and Akasaka since neither of them were in the same room, or even the same world for that matter.

>>6157744
Really? Why?

>>6157694
Except meta-world isn't an invention of the murderer and isn't included in message bottles fictions. Ep6 meeting of Ange and Tohya is an exception, since it itself was a fiction. Real Ange never met Tohya and read her new book - she realizes it herself in that very scene.

Meta-world in Umineko is a world of concepts, that can be visualized and seen as characters or events.

>>6157752

Little girl who wanted to become a god with her own strength, and her actions indirectly created Bern. It's really damn obvious.

>>6157786
In Turn of the Golden Witch the two are very closely intertwined throughout in the story are they not? What leads you to believe that the two are separate?

>>6157801
Miyoko's primary objective was to turn her grandfather into a god though. If that little girl was Miyoko, wouldn't she have at the very least mentioned that if not directly asked for it?

>>6157750

It may be a book written by Tohya, with names changed and some events altered a bit.

>>6157814

You should read Lambda's diary again. It really is beyond any doubt she's talking about Miyo.

>>6157814
No, because this "god" thing is linked to her grandfather's work. So if she can because a "god" thanks to his work, then it means that he was right.

Also most people here should seriously really stop wanting Ryukishi to spoon-feed them..

>>6157813
It is a mystery novel, however it was written before the events of Umineko took place, i.e. before 1985. Tohya is writing around 1998, so she'd have to be older than she looks. Also, Bern is mentioned in the first two episodes, so it couldn't have been Tohya simply including one of her old characters.

>>6157828
The story is of course similar to that of Higurashi, but there's a reason it's never made explicit. As Ryukishi said, no character called Labmdadelta appears in Higurashi. There is no direct evidence there's a connection and that is quite deliberate.

>>6157834
Still, Miyoko was always thinking about her Hifumi first. She even ends up in a position where she'll be eliminated (there's no way Nomura will let her live after she has completed the disaster after all) so it seems uncharacteristic that she'd wish to be made herself a god rather than her grandfather.

>>6157916
!Nipaa, did you miss all of the 1-2-3-4 talk?

>>6157804
They aren't. Meta-Battler is just a reader (probably real-world Battler after the accident or someone else) reading the novels and thinking about them. Meta-Beato is his illusion too.

>>6157935
What do you mean?

>>6157916
Just because something is true in one fiction, doesn't mean that there wouldn't a next one, which will explain that the previous one was false and how it all went in reality. Sounds familiar?
And this is also mentioned in Anti-mystery vs Anti-fantasy, where Ryu outright tells us, that he could retcon any events of his previous novels by writing a new one. It could be that Umineko gives a new interpretation of Higurashi.

>>6157944
The "Mi-yo" 3-4
"Lamda-delta" 3-4
-part

>>
The story is of course similar to that of Higurashi, but there's a reason it's never made explicit. As Ryukishi said, no character called Labmdadelta appears in Higurashi. There is no direct evidence there's a connection and that is quite deliberate.

>>There is no direct evidence there's a connection and that is quite deliberate.

It's the whole point of umineko, about everything. Not only 34 and Bern.

>>6158014
Please. I'm quite aware of that.

>>6157983
I'd be inclined to agree, assuming there were no contradictions between the two stories. For example Hanyuu simply doesn't fit with Aurora. We see Hanyuu's thoughts in and she's not some sort of mastermind. And Bern is not an avatar of the reader in Higurashi as she actually talks to a reader avatar at the start of both Minagoroshi and Matsuribayashi-hen. She even says that she lacks information about what happened after her death in the various worlds, which as she says the person she is speaking to has access to. Because of the fact the stories don't fit, I'm more inclined to believe that Ryukishi is simply making references to his previous work.

>>6158042
>no character called Labmdadelta appears in Higurashi

He said that because people were speculating that Lambda is Miyo or Satoko. And it doesn't mean that Lambda had nothing to do with the events of Higurashi, only that she didn't appear in the story.

This thread is about to make my mind implode.

Bern is fiction, Higurashi is fiction, why do you care?

>>6158077
Though ΛΔ does seem to have traits from both. Her laugh and close relationship with Bern seems to be taken from Satoko after all.

Bernkastel and Rika have nothing to do with each other, just like Xenogears and Xenosaga have nothing to do with each other, it's all just a huge coincidence.