/jp/ - Otaku Culture

Marisa tries really hard at magic, so I guess that's ZUN's explanation. If she has that much ability she should have transcended to become a youkai by now.

Elements make up the world around us, but that's Patchouli's specialization and almost her limitation. Controlling the human body or other living beings(an ability she can use, to heal herself) is beyond her, as well as astral magic and holy magic to some extent. Entities from Without could be an especially difficult foe for her.

She's specialized, not truly versatile. Marisa remained human, so learns new things quickly and can adapt any existing paradigm to her own with great speed and efficiency. Magicians like Patchouli and Alice are too limited, and I doubt they can truly use most of the books contained in the library, assuming they're from many different sources and paradigms.

That's the benefit to being human and adaptive. Learning, copying, and even stealing. It's Marisa's style and the style of most human magicians, even in real life.

Elemental magecraft is a bit of a pigeonhole, actually.

It's all counterattacks. I use fire, you use water, I use lightning, you use earth, I use plant, you use soul, I use darkness, you use light, I use ether/void, etc. etc.

MASTER SPARK has no counter, see?

>>6018090
in my head mirrors counter master spark.

>>6018092

The looking glass shatters and explodes!
-2 luck.

>>6018092
There are more pure forces than the ones that make up the elements. You can have a ray of pure destruction.

>>6018100
If you stole Marisa's mini hakkero her power level'd drop pretty far, I guess. Patchouli and Alice don't really need anything to use their more potent attacks. Well, Alice needs her dolls but she has like a million of the things.

>>6018107

Alice's most potent abilities are stored within her Grimoire of ultimate magic.

One can sit in a room for a thousand years studying every training manual ever written for every martial art, understanding the principles behind every movement, and yet be easily toppled by someone who has trained intensely for 6 months.
Patchy's anemic and never leaves her library. Unless there's an intruder, she hardly casts any magic. According to ZUN, Marisa works hard every day, eats a magical diet, and is frequently in situations where she must cast her spells or be defeated. With a more hands-on approach and familiarity with the actual use of material, one is more capable of improvising. She can see something and make it work for her because that's what she needs to do and what she works for. Patchy can invent spells 'cause she's got free time coming out her silly hat.

>>6018109
She's never used it, so for all intents and purposes it doesn't exist.

>>6018112
That's right, I suppose. If only Marisa was kind enough to give Patchouli her iron, geez! Marisa works so hard, so she's probably the most respectable Touhou in that respect.

Good thread so far.

Also, I'd like to point out, Marisa doesn't really "cast spells she isn't intended to". I read somewhere that she only writes spells that she likes in her book, be it hers or others, and she doesn't use the book for using spells.

>>6018124

>She's never used it, so for all intents and purposes it doesn't exist.

Touhou 5: Mystic Square Extra Stage
Grimoire of Alice

>>6018131
She's never used it at her current power level, fine. I'm assuming she'd be able to use it more effectively now, in any case.

>>6018112
Yep, Marisa's magical diet. Patchouli really could use some of it.

>>6018129
Well, she uses spells that are related to the special ability of the Touhou she took it from. I'm sorry for not being clearer.

>>6018124
It's honestly what clinches her as my favorite.
All other Touhous have innate power, including the other humans, or get their power from items. I think in some character profile it even says that Reimu has insane power potential, but she never wants to put forth the effort to train. It's a very Japanese thing: your birth status or status by association is more important than your own personal merit.
Marisa's the only one who has to run as hard as she can just to keep up with the others. Makes me wish ZUN would give her a better ending than "goes back to her old hijinks" or "let me introduce you to a certain miko..."

>>6018209
>get their power from items
Like.... Marisa?

Also, I'm sure characters like Eirin, Rika, Meira, Youmu and Alice also worked hard to become what they're now.

>>6018209

>I think in some character profile it even says that Reimu has insane power potential, but she never wants to put forth the effort to train

Actually, in Imperishable Night's Last Word descriptions, it's outright stated as this:

If [danmaku] wasn't just for play (with time limit), no one could beat her with any method.

No training or anything. She intentionally limits herself and never uses her ultimate spell card, and even when she does (never in canon, only in Last Word challenge), she limits that very card just to play fair.

>>6018237
Isn't the whole spellcard including the comment just a parody?

>>6018235
Considering Marisa's reputation as a packrat, I should have been more clear. There's a difference between "without this item, you are powerless" and "here, use this item for Master Spark, and this weird item that you can't identify for when you run out of ideas."
What I was parsing out was powers obtained from inheritance, possession, status, or other such means and powers obtained by hard work.
I would compare Marisa's training to Bruce Lee's. Now that sounds internet-dorky, so bear with me here. Bruce took every bit of physical training knowledge and used it to his advantage. He took footwork from fencing and cha-cha (no joke), learned many of his ducks-and-moves from boxing, took his handwork from Wing Chun among other styles, looked into fitness magazines from as far back as the 1880's, experimented with all kinds of diets (including hash brownies but let's not go there), and had friends invent new training machines for him to use. Marisa steals spells that work for her, looks for items that can be of use, and eats a diet of magical mushrooms harvested from the magic forest.
There's a distinct difference between that and "Poemy, use your fish-mace to transform!"
Eirin did probably work very hard, but that's underplayed because what's more important in a Japanese context is that she's really old and she's associated with the highest echelons of Lunarian society.
Youmu probably trains hard, but her father gave her the sword and taught her... another inheritance.
Alice gets her power from her Grimoire.
Rika's and Meira's powers are largely undefined. They probably worked hard, but one can only assume the nature of any of it.

>>6018246

There's no real reason to think so.

>>6018237
I actually found it.
Every character profile of her until EoSD says this:
A shrine maiden of Hakurei Shrine, who has the natural-born spiritual power and lacks training.
And PCB profile says:
She hates training, and because of this, lacks ability. So her skill is quite so-so.
She hates to do her very best at anything that falls upon her.
That is because she does not believe that effort will be rewarded.

>>6018286
and IaMP
She lacks training in both melee and spells (or rather, she rarely does them), but she covers that up with the numerous talents she's born with

bump for decent discussion. insufficient patchy.

>>6018277
>Youmu probably trains hard, but her father gave her the sword and taught her... another inheritance.
So? Mima taught Marisa.
>Alice gets her power from her Grimoire.
wrong!

>>6018279
The name of the spellcard is 夢想天生, just like 無想転生 (Musou Tensei) from Hokuto no Ken. In the fighting game, you even have the music playing when you win the 3rd fight of a match with it.