/jp/ - Otaku Culture

>>5890224
*"............Kinzo is the same. There is no one with a more pitiful lack of magical talent. ...It's the blood. He has so little talent that I feel sorry for him." "That was because, ......even though he didn't have a scrap of talent, he succeeded. ...He kept studying by himself like mad, and reached the level of magician." "Hmm. His talent in magic was nothing, but it seems he had talent in business and gambling. ...Or was it because of his bravery and madness to bet everything on unreasonable bets. ......Madness sometimes brings about magic. I see, if you look at it that way, maybe I can't really say that Kinzo had absolutely no magical talent. *cackle*cackle*..."*

>>5890219
From ep1, chapter "Besieged". Kinzo tried repeatedly to 'resurrect' Beatrice. For this purpose he summoned the children from Fukuin House to use them in his black magic rituals (magic interpretation). Or hired them as servants (real-world interpretation).
So we know that he tried to catch her soul and resurrect her; we know that he hadn't been able to do so; we know that the only vessel capable of storing a soul is a human body; and we know that there were many of them in his experiments. So where are all his experiments? Are they locked in Kuwadorian? No, after 2nd Beatrice's death it was probably deemed not safe enough. Those orphans are hired as the servants, isn't it a good cover?
Shannon and Kanon probably were chosen by him as the most fitting. They were supposed to be the 'vessels' or 'homunculi' that must be filled with souls. They were heavily brainwashed from the young age, thus creating their furniture complex. Shannon was supposed to be a homunculus for Beatrice's soul. He can't capture her soul, because previous "homunculus" was actually a child of real Beatrice and looked like her, so Kinzo believed that it has her soul. But the new "homunculus" isn't related to Beatrice at all, doesn't look like her and Kinzo can't make himself believe, that it has Beatrice's soul. Remember, he has very little 'magical talent', because he's a very rational, though maddened by love, businessman and 'magical talent' is imagination and ability to dream.

>>5890226
In the later years, when Kinzo realized that he has not very much left, he brought Kanon to the island to serve as a homunculus for his own soul. Well, would you REALLY put it past him? It would require yet another miracle, but his magic is based on it:
*Grandfather's magic is based on astronomically low probabilities.*
*Dreams and the future, miracles and possibilities are the source of my magical power. No magic without hopes holds any power.*
So he was probably willing to take a bet. Kanon, as Kinzo's future incarnation, was supposed to inherit his name and probably some power too. The exact details are debatable, so I'll leave it at this for now.
About Genji-furniture. Ronove said that he's his 'vessel' in the real world. We can think that Kinzo used him to "summon" Ronove — remember, Kinzo has an exceptional talent in summoning. Maybe Kinzo actually believed in this. And from the real world POV, Genji might have received the same brainwashing as Shannon and Kanon or was very indebted/grateful to Kinzo for some reason, enough to call himself furniture.
That's why they are furniture, created by Kinzo. That's why only they are allowed to wear a One-winged Eagle, like the family members.

>>5890228
But as we can see in ep2, no amount of brainwashing can prevent human feelings from awakening. This creates the conflict between their fates as a furniture, bound to follow their duty imposed by the furniture's creator, and their love, which can only be fulfilled if they "become" humans.
What is the brooch? From ep6 we know:
*However, she had given up, thinking that one of a different class such as herself would never find love with him. That was when Beatrice had given her the golden butterfly brooch and encouraged her.*
*Humans can use magic to take 'resignation', by which they themselves make the probability of success zero, and cancel it out.*
*"The power of belief becomes magic......"*
And the brooch is a crystallization of magic. We also know that it was that bodiless Beatrice the elder, that is a personification of the legends, who gave her the brooch.
So it probably went like this. There were many legends about Beatrice and that island. To Shannon Beatrice was something like a local deity. She prayed to her and wished to receive strength to overcome her fate and be with George. She believed, like the legends say, that spiritual mirror blocks Beatrice's power, so in order for her wish to become true she broke it. The 'brooch' itself symbolizes the power of determination, self-confidence and willingness to overcome fate.

>>5890231
Ep4 has many small interesting things, which I'm too lazy to interpret now. And also has *that* red about all people recognizing Kinzo's existence and undenied blue about his name's inheritance.

I love your theory and Imma let you finish, but I just realized that Beatrice saying "Who am I?" at the end of game 4 is a metaphor for her identity crisis. That's all.

>>5890236
Now to ep6.
Let's start with the closed room. Even if we ignore the words of the narrator about Battler possibly confirming everyone else's existence in the cousins' room, if only Erika named them, we can still doubt his reasons. Battler first refused, because "acknowledging that would mean that Kinzo's corpse would also have to be in the cousins' room", but we know from the previous episode that it's false:
*Before the family conference, Erika, George, Jessica, Maria, Nanjo, Gohda, and Kumasawa left the mansion and moved to the guesthouse.*
*Of those who remain, only Krauss, Natsuhi, and Genji were in the second floor corridor, while all others were in the dining hall.*
Unless, of course, Kinzo's corpse is indeed stored in the dining hall, which is unlikely. That means that Battler lied about the reasons for excluding Kinzo from the word 'everyone'.

>>5890244
When Hanyuu and Ange are talking about Dlanor, sealing the window:
*"There is no way out except for the windows of the next room over. ......And yet, we are not allowed to include those windows in our reasoning. .........There probably is no answer...for this closed room." "Since no answer exists, then defeat is absolutely certain for whichever player is burdened with the responsibility of explaining." "..................No, one move does exist. ......However, that move.........is one that can never be used again. .....And, ...it is also a part of Beato's heart."*
I'll say that the solution not involving the window exists, though you can interpret it another way, of course. That move can never be used again, because the identity of Kanon will be revealed.
*All people can only use their own names!!* doesn't apply to him, because 'Kinzo' is his own name as well as Kanon.
Therefore: Kanon was never in the cousins' room. He escaped location check using double name, that was excluded. After that he can move freely, place the letter and save Battler. He switched places with Battler, then somehow died and therefore ceased to exist in the guestroom.

>>5890250
Now for the trial. I'll go with the assumption that 'Battler's Beatrice' is Shannon, though it's not impossible to make, maybe a little less likely, theory about Jessica - she has her pros and cons. First of all the trial has a symbolic meaning.
*All this about golden butterfly brooches and miracles of magic...And the trial that the demons were giving them......none of it mattered. Only one thing was being tested. Whether or not they possessed the strong will to make their love come true.*
The fact that people don't die when they're killed in this trial proves this again (see 1st twilight).
They must fight for the miracle of the brooch and that miracle of the brooch simply gives them confidence to overcome their furniture complex and succeed in love.
Shannon: *"You think so...? ......Maybe, we are furniture......just because we think that."*
Only one of them can gain that "miracle", because in order to do that, they must sever their bond with each other. Furniture must obey orders of its master and they were "created"(brainwashed) to be close. To become human, capable of love, they need to overcome their fate and make their own choices. In other words, it's something like George's test, when he must get out of his mother's womb, sever his bonds with her and become free.

>>5890254
Why they have an incomplete souls. Because they're "furniture"; or for example let's say something like "they share their souls through their love-magic-bond", like this:
*"For example, do you think a man with a wife has the right to love another woman?"
".........Of course not. If he loved two women, neither would get a full person's worth of love. ......A man such as that would be unworthy of love."*
Why they have to consume all other souls to become human. Well, they don't. It's just the reward of the duel, that the winner becomes human and the losers "disappear". But remember, in this trial people don't die when they are killed anyway. In fact, Shannon and Kanon don't even necessary need to kill each other for this trial to succeed - the demons thought that George and Jessica would be fighting to death:
*"That's surprising. For a one on one duel, we would have thought-"
"That George and Jessica would've fought."*
"Kanon has disappeared because he died. Beato was born to love Battler and is disappearing because she has lost the qualifications to do that."
Does it mean that if George killed Jessica her soul will be consumed by Shannon? And if so, does it mean that she is another personality of Shannon?
This is concerning Shannon and Kanon souls. As for Beatrice's soul, let's say that she herself is just like an empty vessel for the soul of the old Beatrice with the similar rules; or let's just borrow that part about Shannon splitting her soul to create Beatrice.
Well, it's not a perfect explanation for the trial, but maybe we can come to a better one.

>>5890256
As for the mystery aspect, this theory can give some new motives to some characters. Otherwise, it doesn't really change much - if you want to think about "lolcrazymeido killing for love/pony/golden land", you can continue to do so. Actually it's even easier now, because you don't need as many accomplices in each episode.

What do you think, everyone?

I also just thought:

You bring up that Shannon didn't look like Beatrice, and yet was supposed to serve as a vessel for her.

Imagine Kinzo berating on her for not looking like his beloved golden witch, constantly.

Then, flash forward to when Battler talks about what kind of girl he likes, he tells her he likes girls with BLONDE HAIR like Beatrice. Something Shannon doesn't have, and was berated for constantly for years of her life

Now, if we factor in Shkanon, The real Sayo probably has a slender frame with black hair and a flat chest. This is great considering that ironic line that Battler says in episode four about "What if I told you I liked flat chested lolis with black hair." Which in turn elicits the "NO YOU LIKE BLONDE AND BOUNCY STFU" response from Beato.

AND ALSO!: Tsurupettan was used as the song that Jessica sang in the concert. Kanon mentioned that (s)he wasn't having a good time there at all. Why? BECAUSE THE LYRICS MADE HER FEEL WORSE ABOUT HER LOOKS!

Battler's sin was telling her he liked blondes. This pushed the insecure Sayo over the edge. No pony, no nothing. It's all about looks. This is WHY BEATRICE FEARS MIRRORS.

I solved Uminkeo.

>>5890278
That thought doesn't contradict anything and can be incorporated into the theory as well.

>>5890278
>AND ALSO!: Tsurupettan was used as the song that Jessica sang in the concert. Kanon mentioned that (s)he wasn't having a good time there at all. Why? BECAUSE THE LYRICS MADE HER FEEL WORSE ABOUT HER LOOKS!

If that was the case then I don't think Ryukishi would have let DEEN change the song Jessica plays in the anime.

>>5890311
Because it's a stupid minor hint that actually doesn't make much of a difference anyways. It's just funny and brilliant.

Take it away and the theory still stands.

>>5890311
Dokkyun-Dokkyun, SEXY WALL in every field.

>*All people can only use their own names!!* doesn't apply to him, because 'Kinzo' is his own name as well as Kanon.
Why do people always say this? In this case "ALl people can only use their own names" doesn't deny anything at all. People can just say "that's fine, since they had the name".

Erika did not seem to think it was such a meaningless red. She did not try more bullshit with names after that red was used, and said that it canceled out many many tricks one could use.

>>5891323
Yes, it doesn't deny anything at all. Except in the case if George's name is actually Kanon clues must presented.
Because it's the job of the witch to confuse stupid detectives like Erika, who assume to much.

>>5891370
Or maybe the fanbase takes it on themselves to ignore reds when convenient for them.

>>5891372
It's called 'interpretation'. Shkannontrice uses it a lot.
# It's possible to show a different truth by using a different interpretation!!

>>5890278

... That sounds awesome.

>>5890311
No, instead they gave us a song that practically screams JESSICA IS THE CULPRIT.

>>5891370
This. Remember the "anyone looking at George, Jessica, Maria, Rosa, or Genji's corpses could confirm at a glance that they are dead" red? It served no purpose other than confusing at all, because corpses will always be dead anyway.

>*Before the family conference, Erika, George, Jessica, Maria, Nanjo, Gohda, and Kumasawa left the mansion and moved to the guesthouse.*
>*Of those who remain, only Krauss, Natsuhi, and Genji were in the second floor corridor, while all others were in the dining hall.*
>Unless, of course, Kinzo's corpse is indeed stored in the dining hall, which is unlikely. That means that Battler lied about the reasons for excluding Kinzo from the word 'everyone'.

Something just clicked in my head when i read this. Yes, this is indeed a big hint. The rest of your theory does make alot of sense as well, however, it doesn't answer all questions. I.e. i noticed you barely grazed ep 4, seen to be the most clusterfucked episode so far, i've yet to see a convincing theory for it even when using shkannon. Sure, it works, but it's still a huge clusterfuck that makes barely any sense. Continue.

>>5892440
Best way to explain Ep4 is with everyone dying at almost the same time.

>>5892456

Then who was phone?

I.e, who carried all the bodies about?

Op, maybe try introducing the fake murder mystery theory into your own.

1. Go to episode 4 music box
2. Click T_c_in_summer
3. If the background is orange, click it again. If not, wait.
4. Umineko solved.

>>5892472
Well, the idea is that people only started dying AFTER Battler rejected Beatrice.

>>5892440
Yes, I had no intention to answer all the questions. Barely to explain ep6 without Shkannon and with a solid basis from previous episodes. This is supposed to be a part of Beatrice's heart, and it very well can be it. But a "part" isn't a "whole", so there are probably other rules.
For example, I nearly ignored Jessica on purpose for now, because she has no real importance on the core of this theory, but maybe she plays much more important role.

>>5892530
What's your interpretation of Zepar and Furfur's love trial?

>>5892532
I wrote about it, didn't I?

>>5892537
I see. But you say most of the stuff they talk about actually doesn't really matter. It's a pretty big claim.

>>5892553
Because it's more than just "forbidden love between a servant and a family member". They are 'magical furniture', their status explained either - they have more restrictions (they think they have). And the "miracle of magic, granted by brooch" is also explained.

>>5890231
>willingness to overcome fate
This doesn't sound familiar at all...

>>5892497
While that was funny, an answer to Umineko it is not.

>>5892594
So what about all the fantasy "furniture"? Like the stakes, siestas, and such. How do they fit in?

>>5892761

It's the duality of umineko.

The stakes are the "weapons" used to kill
Other magical beings usually represent peices on the boards while others represent abstract ideals/other things to do with the story.

I.e. featherine is the writer
lambda/bern are the readers/watchers

etc etc.

They all represent the fantasy side of things.

>>5892761
Fantasy furniture also has its own vessels, personality and abides the orders of its creator/employer. When "creating" you invent the soul for a furniture, like Maria did, and when "summoning" you use an existing pattern, which can be written somewhere or exist as a common legend (see Beatrice).

>>5892608
They could even have a similar back story...

bump

I like your theory, because it involves Shannon and Kanon both having a more or less incest relationship, rendering them doomed.

Also leaves place for ponnies and whatnot.