/jp/ - Otaku Culture

Explain Shkannon with ep V Hall scene.

Erika was there and everyone was in the room. Also, R07 said as long the detective is there is fine, it doesn't have to be first person.
And the detective can't ignore a clue.

It's all Rika's dream

>>5819634

Scene wasn't first-person.

>>5819655

Did you read the post?

Crap. I ended up writing out a theory for the last thread, that grew completely out of control, but now it's at auto sage...

No ones going to mind if I dump it here I presume?

>>5819661

Ryukishi never said anything like that.

>>5819666

Go ahead. Also, nice triples.

>>5819669

It did with ep Eva

Beside, even if it was third person what.

It doesn't make sense, did Erika suddenly accept Kanon exist?

>>5819634
first person was Battler, unreliable point of view.

>>5819169
>>5819180
(note: posts are lists of exapmles of hints that Shannon loves Battler)
A lot of these are intriguing, at the same time almost all of them can be worked around, if needed. And at the end of the day, it's still reliant on the idea that an old crush from age 10 requires someone to create a split personality , in order to deal with it, emotionally.

Just not enough trauma. The gut still goes for the Kinzorape-Jessitrice origin.

Actually....

Thought expiriment. Let's combine the two. There's a comparable amount of evidence for a Jessica-Battler kiddie crush. And there's a huge amount of evidence for the relationship with Kinzo.

So, let's say that things get bad, once Battler vanishes. Jessica is being treated as the third reincarnation of Beatrice (every night, that is). Shannon tries to help, but they're ultimately powerless. So instead, they create Beatrice.

Someone to blame for what's happening. Now there really is a magic witch floating around, someone who occasionally takes residence within Jessica. Someone, who actually ENJOYS all the things he does to her. And during the day, Jessica is perfectly safe, because Beatrice isn't there.

It's a story, invented between the two of them as a coping mechanism. The witches covenant that requires two. And Shannon takes it upon herself to make sure it's believable. She starts playing pranks, and tries to believe in Beatrice even harder than Jessica does in order to make sure. Throughout it all, they reminisce about Battler, someone they both have a crush on, and who they would like to imagine would return and save them. When he does not, it begins to turn into resentment.
>cotd.

>>5819672

>>>/b/

>>5819681
Somewhere along the line, Kinzo hires Kanon in the hypothetical described somewhere up the page. (he thinks it's a prank, or he thinks his Beatrice should have a boy servant, all the other servants are forced to play along) Shannon still wants to help Jessica as much as she can, and continues to act the pat for her sake. Eventually she isn't even sure which persona she would rather stay in, if it means she would get to stay with Jessica.

Later on, Kinzo dies. At this point, if not earlier, Jessica wants nothing to do with Beatrice, and gets angry whenever she's brought up. It's all something she doesn't want to remember. Meanwhile, Shannon falls in love with George, meanwhile Jessica is still in love with Kanon. Jessica is still living in a fantasy, just a fantasy minus Beatrice.

And as the murders approach, this fantasy is falling apart. Shannon has a choice to make, and if she leaves, Jessica's entire world collapses. The confusion turns into anger. Not at George. (that would mean admitting the delusions), but at everyone else. Her clueless parents, and the servants who ignored her. Everyone else who never saved her.

>>5819684
Meanwhile, Shannon has her own crisis. Her Kanon persona is aligned with everything Jessica wants to do. Shannon herself, has marriage to think about. Marraige which would NEVER be approved. Eva and Hideyoshi are obsessive, and slimy. They would do anything to keep her away. If they ran out of ideas, they would probably be willing to kill her. And now her beloved Jessica wants to take revenge on everyone on the island. Opportunity.

And so the two of them set out to do something terrible. Once again, this isn't their fault. It's Beatrice that's causing it after all. It's her resurrection ceremony. All in the epitaph see?

.....all right, this theory wasn't going to be this big originally. But this is kind of awesome now. Shk....Shkjaennssitrice.

Incorporates more clues (all the rape stuff), is DID free (Shannon creates an illusion of these people for Jessica), explains Battler, and the murders, and the epitaph. Hot damn.

Everyone break it apart now.

Sorry if this comes off as insulting, but your theory is worse than Erika's reasoning for Natsuhi's guilt in episode 5. Actually, both of your theories have a lot in common.

>>5819700

At least it fits with established clues and gives Shkanontrice a purpose.

>>5819741
>gives Shkanontrice a purpose.
More Jessitrice fag nonsense.

>>5819700
Crazy theories are the best theories.

Not to derail the current discussion, but if there are 17 people on the island, shouldn't there be 17 vessels/bodies?

EP1, 1st twilight. At least one of the 4 'corpses' (excluding Shannon and Krauss (since Krauss is 100% dead and 'Shannon' is 99% alive)) was still alive. Some try counter with red:

[red]
Regarding the unidentified corpses, all of their identities are guaranteed. Therefore, no body double tricks exist!
[/red]

Counters to red:
1. I wear a scary mask, I am still alive, therefore 'corpse' and 'body' don't apply to me.
2. My eyes are torn out, my face is scrapped off, my tounge and glands are torn out, I bleed extensively, I cannot move for whatever reason, I barely breath, but I'm still alive and dressed up to represent someone's corpse therefore 'corpse' and 'body' don't apply to me.

>>5819775
Well,shit, what's the point of 2 if you are as good as dead?

>>5819634
Explain Erika's perspective working like this.

I guess Dlanor is also a person on the island.

>>5819873
I guess Battler doesn't exist in the island too.

>>5819775
How can you say Krauss was 100% dead when you argue number 2?

>>5819889
What?

Theory: Umineko is shit and Ryukishi07 is a hack.

>>5819873

Dlanor only exist in the meta-meta, and doesn't affect the reality i any way... Shkannon does.

>>5819940
Dlanor appears on the gameboard with Erika. The only way you can argue that Erika's perspective is reliable is if the scene with all the magic in episode 5 is a "meta scene" rather than "fantasy scene", saying that it takes place in the meta world, not the gameboard, even though Erika is a piece and interacting with pieces, including piece Battler, who meta Battler acknowledges as a different entity.

Back in episode 3 he thought it was reliable even with third person, or he originally intended for the scene with Eva shooting to be real, and didn't realize he had made it so vague. In short, he changed his mind. In episode 5, he decides third person perspective of a detective is not so reliable, and this is his episode 5 dirty trick.

>>5819977

You don't seem to understand.

Dlanor doesn't have anything to do with what happens to Rokkenjima, it isn't even a lie, she's just there.


Kanon not being in the room doesn't make any sense.

>>5820004
You're the one who doesn't understand, I think. Your basis for believing this scene is real is an arbitrary one. Scenes can be completely falsified even if there are no obvious fantasy elements, like the scenes with Kinzo alive, or the scene with the knock that never happened (the same scene where Battler first sees Kanon and Shannon together).

The thing a scene requires to be reliable is a detective, and yet, any scene with Dlanor in it on the gameboard is obviously not reliable. Though she does it more in episode 6, Dlanor appears on the gameboard with Erika in Kinzo's room. Piece Erika, debating with piece Battler. No matter what way you try to spin that, the scene is not reliable. Portions of it did not happen.

Likewise, Kanon merely being shown to be in the room based on the sprites and based on a narrator who is not Erika - a narrator not even on the gameboard - is not reliable.

Shkanontrice? Lol no it's just Kanontrice.

>>5819922
That is no more a theory than proclaiming that oxygen being beneficial to humans is a theory. It's a goddamn established fact.

>>5819687
> Shk....Shkjaennssitrice.
"Fusiontrice" fits this theory pretty well, actually. It's not the same as the original Fusiontrice theory, but the term fits.

>>5819977
>and this is his episode 5 dirty trick.
It's funny people try to use episode 5 to disprove ShKanon and say episode 6 is the one lying when Ryu07 said that.
>I definitely can't tell you that! It's true that the most vital part of "Land of the golden witch" is in there, but it's such a terrifying bit. Furthermore, it's something that neither Battler nor Erika nor Bernkastel has ever brought up in discussion. Maybe they didn't even realize that it was a riddle. Well, you'll probably find out soon. In EP6, a huge bit of red text info will appear regarding this point......according to the current plan.

>>5820083

Why would Shkanon have been revealed in Ep3?

>>5820111
Episode 2 had a huge hardon for Shkanon. Also, it's not like he was going to reveal it. Rather, he was going to make it look like it was denied, like in episode 5. He wanted to raise the difficulty with episode 3, but he found that people were struggling with concepts in episode 2 so he lowered the difficulty.

>>5820083
>I: How many players have noticed what this content is so far?
>R: Zero. ...Well, I'd like to say that, but I can't. This content is extremely venomous. Very powerful.
>I: Is this content deeply related to solving the crimes?
>R: I think people who have found the "answer" probably won't have any problems. I wonder if they've realized it's a trick...... It's a very dirty trick.
>I: To put it another way, is it possible to reach the truth of the crime if you haven't noticed this trick?
>R: Ryuukishi: That's hard to say. If you don't see through the part from "Land of the golden witch", you definitely won't be able to reach several vital answers. However, that content was never really necessary in the first place, so you can reach the truth of the crime with it or without it. Still, it's just so venomous that there's a chance you'll be totally confused. Depending on the situation, it's likely to cause a certain misunderstanding.

>>5820140
In other words, even if Shkanon is true, it isn't the solution to the mystery.

>>5820149
He probably means you can solve it with Shannontrice without really thinking Shannon and Kanon are the same person.

>>5820129
>Episode 2 had a huge hardon for Shkanon

...In retrospect.
And what people were struggling with in Ep2 was the idea of fantasy scenes being fake, which is why he rewrote Ep3 to introduce the catbox thing, originally a concept from Ep6.
I don't think he could possibly "deny" Shkanon in Ep3. Many people wouldn't have thought of it, and how would you pretend to deny something like that outside of having them appear together in front of Battler, invalidating his POV?
The entire rest of the family pretending that they're separate people is denial enough.

Guys, remember when Shkanontrice wasn't the only thing the fandom talked about, and it wasn't the only way everyone interpreted everything?

Those were fun days.

>>5820156
It surfaced as a theory after episode 2. Of course if people can't grasp if a fantasy scene is fake, how can they grasp that, but that certain mundane scenes are fake too, and even further, that a mundane scene you would usually think would be reliable isn't. He probably planned to introduce a character who would appear to have a reliable perspective and didn't, or use third person around Battler, or have Battler's viewpoint be invalidated in some way.

>>5820170
Yeah I remember, back when Umineko was good.

>>5820140
...Alright gentlemen, let us look over Land of the Golden Witch yet again.

Apparently the answer lies within.

>>5819892
He had half of the face left but everyone saw him, including Battler.

>>5820185
Land of the Golden Witch was a scrapped episode 3.

>>5820192
Why can't he be alive but barely capable of action, like 2?

>>5820170
Those were days in the dark with people thinking Umineko was better than it really turned out to be. And there was also that awful pony theory.

>>5820182

It was a joke theory designed to point out how stupid some serious theories can get. "As long as it works under the red", right?

I don't think anyone ever expected it to be real.

>>5820208

It's funny because all you'd have to do to make Umineko a good story would be to have Shkanon not be true and to focus more on the adults instead of the kids.

>>5820182
> or use third person around Battler
He did that at the end of Episode 2. In fact, he switched between Battler's first-person POV and a third-person narration several times. All to make it seem like Kinzo was still alive.

Funny thing is, Battler's first-person narration implied the existence of someone else in the room besides himself, Genji, and Kinzo's corpse, as he stated that there was someone sitting across from Kinzo.... All the bits with Kinzo talking and Beato talking to Kinzo were done in third-person, of course.

>>5820217
Not really. It was a legitimate theory, it just didn't have near as much support as it did now, and it wasn't a point of contention. Nobody saw any use in it, since nobody combined it with Shannontrice. Despite episode 3 red against it, it managed to live on to episode 4 with Kanon/Shannon dying before the games began being an explanation. Then episode 5 killed it, then episode 6 revived it again with a vengeance.

I love it when people push Shkanontrice, but immediately backpedal and say that they hate the theory, there's just no other possibility.

It's fucking Umineko, stop treating it like a coherent story and think of the ending you want, rather than what seems to be the case, because Ryukishi has clearly shown he doesn't give a damn about consistency, or even explaining things.

>>5820222
More like all you need to do to satisfy a certain type of fan who just wants to see Kyrie do suspicious things.

>>5820208
Y'know, the Pony Theory still has the possibility of being true, if you consider both the Shkanon angle AND the Erika-not-existing angle....

SAYO IS THE ONLY PERSON ON ROKKENJIMA

EVERYBODY ELSE IS AN ALTERNATE PERSONALITY IN HER HEAD

>>5820236
>and think of the ending you want, rather than what seems to be the case
No.

It's not "backpeddling", either. There are two groups. People who subscribe to your kind of fantasy land theorizing, and people who want to get to the truth of things regardless of how disappointing that truth is.

>>5820241
FUCKING FICTION THEORY

>>5820239
And it has the certainty of not being true if you consider the 'get into your head already that Beatrice is not her own person because you're told every episode' angle.

>>5820231

No, no one actually took it very seriously because it was stupid. No one combined with Shannontrice because that would be even more stupid.

>>5820226

The narration actually jumps around a LOT if you're paying attention, especially in Ep5.

>>5820236

You'd be hard-pressed to find a single person who actually likes the theory.

>>5820242
So you promote your shitty pseudoscience bullshit end rather than a more rational explanation that surely exists, nicely done.

Of course, even that will suck, because Ryukishi is fucking awful at mystery, and apparently romance too. He should just stick to killer lolis xD, or alternatively, quit writing.

>>5820252
>No, no one actually took it very seriously because it was stupid
I saw it as a possibility back then. I thought it was rather plausible, actually. Of course, back then, you didn't have people raging back how impossible and wrong it was because it wasn't a point of contention.

Shkannon is one of the most stupid things ever.
Battler is probably in shock and out insane due to his family members killing each other. And because his brain can't take it he is just making shit up to stay, relative, sane.

>>5820258
No, it means I try to get to the bottom of what the author is saying rather than creating fanfiction.

>>5820246
But the point of contention simply becomes "who created the Beatrice that loves Battler" rather than "who is Beatrice"P?

>>5820242

Funny thing about that is, I've never seen anyone who believes in Shkanontrice take it anywhere other than "Shannon killed everyone for LOVE".
It's like, once you get to the point where you believe in the theory, you can't go anywhere else. It's like nothing else matters anymore, since you're already so convinced as to who the murderer is that you've stopped thinking.

No one has yet managed to create a unified theory that everyone can agree on, you know?

>>5820266
Here, I'll save you the effort.

Shkannontrice is Ryukishi telling you to go fuck yourself, and that he has no idea what he is doing.

>>5820269
That may be because they're too busy trying to convince the people who vehemently deny it so the Umineko community in general can get down to the rest of the mystery with it as one of the premises.

>>5820203
Well, he actually may be but it would be completely pointless (and so, I disregarded him). Purpose of scrapping off someone's face fully is to set up their corpse as yours. What would you do with an easily identifiable half-dead man?
...
But then again. What about 'Krauss mask'? -> let's say Rudolph wears a well-done half-faced Krauss mask and wears his suit and Krauss is barely alive in Rudolph's suit. A trick without any 'corpse' involved.
Well, ok, he may not be dead.

>>5820276
Why bother theorizing at all if that's your stance?

>>5820269
Hey now, I, for one, believe that if Shkanontrice is true, there's still more to it than just that. It seems the most likely possibility at the moment, but if so, they still aren't the culprit. There's something else going on.

>>5820262
>I thought it was rather plausible, actually.

...How? How is it plausible at all?

It works under the red text, yes, it makes thematic sense, yes, it explains several closed rooms, yes, it could be an answer as to who Beatrice is.

But the big problem with it, and the reason it's so hard to believe is, as always, the number of "whys" it raises.

Why would anyone pay one servant two salaries? Why would the servant's best friend not notice that she's dressing up as a boy? Why would her fiance not notice? Why does no one in the house notice, and why does no one ever think of informing Battler? And why, why, why, why is all this going on in the first place?

It completely breaks suspension of disbelief.

>>5820283
>>5820299

Theorize, then. Why should the opinions of other people matter?
If you believe in the theory so strongly, and Shkanontrice is one of the major components of the mystery, then why haven't you solved Umineko yet?

>>5820290
That is if Shkannontrice is true. Ryukishi still doesn't know what he is doing, it would take a miracle for this fiasco to come together in a rational way, but I suppose I'll be a glass half full person and continue to believe he won't do something as odious as the Shkannon theory to the last second. I suppose he deserves at least that much faith for the above mediocre Higurashi.

>>5820300
That. Like that. There weren't people ranting about it.

Back then it was also the "Kanon/Shannon is dead, one of them is acting out the part of the other in grief" angle.

>>5820314
The same reason someone who knows Kinzo is dead hasn't solved Umineko yet.

>>5820324

Oh, that's fine. I can accept that; it's at least a good reason.
The current version of the theory is beyond pointless.

>>5820346
I like the version of the theory posted early in the thread. It makes more sense than the current version of Shkanontrice.

>>5820328

Kinzo being dead had comparatively little impact aside from making Krauss and Natsuhi less suspicious.
He never really did anything important anyway, aside from coming up with the epitaph, which also turned out to be unimportant.
In fact, according to the fandom, the only important thing in Umineko is Shkanontrice, isn't it?

>>5820364

Oh yes. That's definitely a very good theory.
Very dramatic and powerful.

>>5820314
You're preaching to the choir. I waste so much time trying to get to the bottom of this, thinking about certain aspects of the story, re-reading episode, constantly theorizing, checking Japanese version of red. Anyone who theorizes more than me is really in a sorry state of affairs. There's also not going to be a great epiphany when you reach the truth. Can anyone really come out and say they've reached it, without having their answer confirmed? It'll be a gradual process, you won't even notice. You'll constantly question your own conclusions. Your average theorist might actually know a great portion of the truth, without considering the possibility that they're so right. People thinking the truth is grander than it really is could also play a factor.

>>5820300
If you think about it, all of the people who would notice that they were two people, bear allegiance to one man. A man who has a tendency to do things for the lulz.

The servants answer to Kinzo. Natsuhi may or may not have noticed immediately. (note, we don't actually know if they're paid two salaries). Either way, her devotion to Kinzo is currently fanatical. Krauss and Gohda are idiots, so they're exempt. Anyone not living on the island is exempt. George certainly knows (look at how easily he accepts the duel situation. Shannon may have told him. Oddly enough, Jessica might not be aware. (again, the duel situation) Or maybe she just doesn't want to believe. (Fusion theory outlined above)

>>5820364
>>5820372
Wait, really? Awesome.

(has still been hanging around, hoping people would find it interesting, but has been ignored)

>>5820387
>There's also not going to be a great epiphany when you reach the truth.

Then why did Battler have one?
The "aha! I've got it!" moment is the best part of any mystery. And the truth is always that big a deal.
It's always supposed to be a big surprise when everything, absolutely everything, just falls into place.

If you've reached the truth, you'd know. I think that's almost the point of Battler's epiphany in Ep5.

>>5820366
Since when is the epitaph unimportant?

Kinzo being dead is irrelevant to actual theories of the truth, yes. In a way. But if you thought Kinzo was alive, it'd be that much harder for you to make any conclusions. If he's alive, he's obviously going to be very suspicious to you, you might even place him as a centerpiece in many of your theories. So knowing he's dead is important.

Guys, I don't know if it's really important or not but excluding 6th game there are 10 pieces of red text with 'Kanon' in it (20 if you count 6th game) and 5 with 'Shannon' (6 if you include the 6th game). This doesn't include any red text related to them without their name in it.

It's been bugging me for some time for some reason.

>>5820422
>Then why did Battler have one?
I thought I mentioned that in my post, guess I forgot. I don't think that would ever happen in reality, not with a mystery like this. Which is why R07 absolutely needs to state the answer plainly, instead of his current plan.

>>5820430
That's because of Kanon's mysterious disappearances.

Fake murder mystery game still gets my vote. Inb4 BUT HOW DO YOU EXPLAIN THE REEEEED DEATHS. Simple. The real murders were an accident. Or someone was using the fake murders to their advantage. Using this theory it is possible to deduce that only one culprit could carry the murders so we don't need to rely on shitty shkannontrice except foe a few closed rooms.

>>5820426

The epitaph stopped having relevance the minute Eva solved it in Ep3.
It's built up as this big important puzzle, but it's just solved (offscreen) and thrown aside like it had no meaning in the first place.

>>5820554
I thought that was just to show that the epitaph was actually solvable.

I'll give you that the epitaph itself is irrelevant, maybe. And it's supposed to be impossible to solve completely without being on Rokkenjima, so that's how it should be.

The act of solving it on the other hand and the gold is still relevant. The culprit says she will stop if the epitaph is solved, and there has to be a reason they are pushing for the epitaph to be solved in the first place, and following the epitaph in the first place. Since Eva survives in episode 3, it could also be the key to surviving the incident. Since Battler wants everyone to come home safely, it's still relevant.

The epitaph doesn't seem to be hiding much of value. In order to solve it, you need a place, which we don't have, and even if we did solve it, we're being led to believe that all we would win is another location, this time a location on a fictional island, holding fictional riches.
It's important when people find it, but it doesn't seem to matter WHERE it is. Unless the author surprises us. In the meantime I'm content to believe in the Taiwan theory that leads to the Konami code.

Typical day on Rokkenjima.

Or is it not so typical after all!?

Regarding the epitaph... am I the only one to realize that it hasn't actually been solved yet? I get the distinct impression that finding the gold may be one of the late steps of the epitaph, but it's not the FINAL step.

Otherwise, why does everyone keep dying at the end? Beatrice has been saying since Episode ONE that the only way to win the game was to solve the epitaph, yet everyone still apparently dies in the two episodes it was 'solved'.

I also kind of suspect that the Epitaph might have been solved by someone in EVERY episode, or else whoever Beatrice is is going through the process themselves. If you follow the theory that 'Beatrice' in the epitaph is referring to the bomb, then the witch 'reviving' on the ninth twilight might be representative of the bomb being armed. It can only be disarmed by solving the final lines of the epitaph, putting the witch back to rest... right? The bomb is maybe a kind of defensive measure Kinzo installed to prevent someone who hadn't solved the epitaph from reaching the gold.

>>5820845
Pretty sure the bomb part was added onto an otherwise sound theory as a joke. Don't remember exactly how it was derived, but from that point on, everything was pretty much "with a capital T and that rhymes with B and that stands for Bomb" type logic.

>>5820816
>The bomb is maybe a kind of defensive measure Kinzo installed to prevent someone who hadn't solved the epitaph from reaching the gold.
Now that is an interesting thought, and it makes sense. If someone physically found the gold but by coincidence or by some method that didn't involve the epitaph, Kinzo obviously wouldn't want to hand over the gold to them.

>>5820859
The original theory with the bomb isn't what matters. It's that Ryuukishi has actually confirmed some kind of explosion took place.

>>5820859
Well, there ended up being a bomb mentioned in the tips, but I doubt there's any direct connection to the epitaph.

Anyway. Since someone was talking about crazy Jessitrice/Fusiontrice theories earlier, this caught my eye while I was replaying Episode 2 earlier.

Also, in Episode 3, Battler tries to retaliate against EVA by theorizing that Jessica had some 'other personality' who could have carried out the crimes, but she dodged the issue by stating that carrying out a crime was physically impossible for Jessica instead.

Of course, this might have been Ryu trying to put us on the right track toward Shkannon rather than a hint about Jessica.

What bothers me about Shkanontrice is the fact that Shannon cannot be the original personality, while Kanon on the other hand could be. Which brings the question of why would the original be the one that came later or what happened to the original? This is also supported by the fact that while Shannon typically talks to Beatrice more, Kanon seems to be the one who best knows Beatrice. On the other hand if Kanon, Shannon, and Beatrice were all created by a person who split, then why does Shannon seem so off? My only logical conclusion is that Shkanon is wrong, and that since Shannon is basically Kanon's only true friend that Kanon's guard is down enough to let Beatrice out around her. The only real thing that makes Shkanontrice seem plausible is the shitty 3 way duel in episode 6, even then it could have such a fucking obscure real world meaning that it could actually be anything.

Is it possible that the witches' game in Umineko is the result of a logic error? It seems to have the characteristic of repeating over and over until something is solved, like Battler's closed room and the events in Higurashi. The logic error involves Battler's sin. The "victim" of the logic error is probably Beatrice.

>>5820871
uh.....Which two people are talking about who, here?

>>5820928
Why can't it be a three way split? What do you mean by Shannon being off? Coming to the "logical conclusion" that Shkanon is false through such a reasoning, really.

>>5820935
Battler is asleep. Jessica and George are speaking. I think Jessica is also taking out her rage about Kanon on Battler though, I don't remember the exact context.

Stolen from Russian umifriends.
Ladies and gentlemen, please allow me to introduce: KANZO

1. [It has already been shown that Kinzo no longer exists, so please remove him from the word 'everyone'.] [red] I acknowledge that everyone else is in the cousins' room. [/red]
2. 'Kinzo/Goldsmith = a title' wasn't countered in red.
3. KANZO went and simply saved Battler
4. EP4. Battler makes up a 'title' theory. A pathetic attempt to counter it with red follows:

All of those who met at the family conference recognized the existence of Kinzo!
No person would mistake Ushiromiya Kinzo by sight.
No matter what the disguise, they would not mistake Ushiromiya Kinzo!

Where the hell is 'Ushiromiya' in the first sentence? Nowhere.

tl;dr
At the conference in EP4 Kinzo's will is presented passing down the title to Kanon. Given that Kanon is probably Natsuhi's baby thet fell down from the cliff, remembering that Kinzo told Natsuhi to take care of the baby as though he was her own, it probably was a Beato II's baby who Kinzo held dear and probably wanted to make him a successor.

FINAL ARGUMENT: This land's true master's age is 19. That baby would be 19 right now. With the Kinzo title, he is the master of Rokkenjima right now.


Thoughts?

>>5820944

all hail kanzotrice

>>5820944
This is a pretty old theory. It even existed as a theory before episode 6 before it was resurrected as an anti-Shkanon answer to the closed room.

How do you explain what Rosa saw 19 years ago though? Rosa mentioned no baby. In And Then There Were None, a pregnant maid called Beatrice threw herself off a cliff. Since Natsuhi says it was a servant carrying a baby, and Rosa says it was just Beatrice, I think it's clear what happened there.

>>5820944
To add to this, Kinzo might have forced 'Beatrice' to pretend to be a boy so that no one would be able to use the only passing the title to males to deny her it.

>>5820973
>In And Then There Were None, a pregnant maid called Beatrice threw herself off a cliff.

Seriously?? That, actually sounds remarkably relevant. (why hasn't anyone mentioned this before?)

>>5821000
Yes, she committed suicide that way. One of the people on the island is there because Wargrave thinks it's her fault the maid died.

>>5821007
I just bought that book, I hope this isn't a spoiler :<

>>5820973
As much as a hint '10 little niggers' is itself, I doubt Ryu07 would just copy it (he altered the prophercy at least, lol).
Plus, as it was mentioned a million times before, don't trust anything that wasn't said in red. Rosa could lie.
Other options:
Baby wasn't Beato's but Kinzo wanted to make him a successor for whatever reason.

>>5821025
If you forget what I said then it isn't.

>>5821036

Although honestly it's so old a book that he should know the twist by now.

>>5821033
The baby was Genji's, Kinzo had a hard time convincing Genji to get a kid. Also if Ronove tells you anything, it's that Genji was Kinzo's gay lover.

Why don't you just give up and wait for EP7?

>>5821081
Even then, there's no guarantee Ryukishi will give all the answers. He pretty much said so in EP6.

>>5821081
2 more weeks, a hell of a time.

>>5820944
Seems pretty plausible overall with no obvious counters at the moment (will try to dig some up but not now).

Shannon is Beatrice (the ruler of the mansion at night)
Kanon is Kinzo (the ruler of the mansion by day)
To find the true ruler, they have to duel

>>5821093
I think the only thing we are worrying about is Shkanon crap, which he will have to reveal in order to end the fucking story. If he goes the Shkanontrice route, many rages will be had. If he throws Shkanontrice out the window, then a lot of the fans will be so happy they'll eat what ever shit he gives them. I'm guessing he threw the Shkanon crap in episode 6 to make people think better of him when he disproves it, as we will be realizing how much more worse it could have been.

>>5821093
Maybe he changed his mind after the EP6 shitstorm?

>>5821081
R07 will not reavel anything because he enjoys
all the hatred and chaos he cause on /jp/

>>5821123
Hopefully they'll let Battler and George duke it out for them at the final episode. FAT MARTIAL ARTS VS ROID RAGE MUSCLES, WHO WILL WIN!?!?

>>5821131
Why the fuck would he give a shit either way? It's not like he's making money off of the actual games. He's getting royalties from Higurashi and Umineko already from all the adaptations. He can do anything he wants with the games, and he will. He does this because he wants to, not to pander to his fans.

>>5821124
I will really savour the tears. Not because I like Shkanontrice, but because the stubborn denialfags deserve it. Months of being called retarded, accusations of having stopped thinking, having to explain the tiniest of contradictions, having to repeat the same arguments time and time again, collecting walls of evidence to no avail...

>>5821124
R07 is right now in his the same room has Battler
Trying to find a way to get out without putting the chailocker blah blah blah.... Because he now knows the shitstorm that's gonna be if he just says ShKannon as he planned from the beggining.
I bet he is crying and muttering to himself how it's all useless it's all useless....Heh that bitch got what he deserved

>>5821164
R07 would never back down for the sake of the loveless readers he despises.

>>5821176
''Reder stupid, reder stupid pig disgusting
not dezerve my genius answer i had
ShKannon genius theory
me genius Lahahaha''

Holy shit....I will break this motherfucker legs if this is really what he have in mind

>>5821192

Ｌｏｖｅｌｅｓｓ　ｆｏｒｅｉｇｎｅｒ　ｗａｎｔｓ　ｔｏ　ｂｒｅａｋ　
ｍｙ　ｌｅｇｓ？
Ｍｙ　ｎａｍｅ　ｉｓ　ｎｏｔ　ｅｖｅｎ　ｋｎｏｗｎ．．．．．．
Ｗｉｔｈｏｕｔ　ｌｏｖｅ，　ｉｔ　ｃａｎ’ｔ　ｂｅ　ｓｅｅｎ．

>>5821160
R07 already modified Umineko because people found out Kinzo was dead earlier than he expected.
Also this >>5820156
>And what people were struggling with in Ep2 was the idea of fantasy scenes being fake, which is why he rewrote Ep3 to introduce the catbox thing, originally a concept from Ep6.

>>5821220
Yeah, but what he DIDN'T do is change the answer because people found out early.

>>5821160
>It's not like he's making money off of the actual games.

07th Expansion is a doujin company, so yes, he is making money off of his games.

Hell, I doubt they really cost anything to produce other than printing the DVDs...

>>5821211

>>5821232
Not necessarily change the answer but at least EXPLAIN THIS BS.

All I can say is that Shkanontrice is loveless, if he gives us that then there is no love. Also Shkanontrice is breaking that trusted bond between author and reader. Not to mention it has too many fucking holes in it. I doubt it's right, and if it is then I will have lost all respect for R07.

What's the japanese view of this shit? Are they raging or eating this shit up?

EP7 outline theory
Bern takes into account a fact that EP3-EP6 were fanfictions and writes her own fanfiction where everyone could psychologically snap and become a killer. We get 17 short gory stories with 17 culprits and have to guess who is the most sympathetic and righteous one.

>>5821305
The whole "fanfiction" thing is stressed too much. Featherine's stories are stilled supposed to have the same "scent" as Beato's. Her stories aren't any more fake than episode 1 and 2's are.

>>5821326
Which ultimately means we don't know shit about what really happened on this god-forsaken island.

>>5821345
Do we really care? It should be enough to know the truth of the episodes.

>>5821360
I suppose the "ultimate truth" is kept aside for the last episode.

>>5821283
I'm interested in that as well. What are the popular theories amongst our moonspeaking friends?

>>5821360

Not if Ange actually is the protagonist. She wants to know the truth of what happened on that island.

>>5821378
Last I heard their 者音＝嘉音=ベアト theory was pretty popular. ie Shkanontrice

>>5821378

Google this:
"紗音＝嘉音＝ベアト"

>>5821161
I can already hear the 'I tried so hard. And got so far. But in the end. It doesn't even matter.' playing in the background. Except it's playing for Shkanonfriends.

>>5821440
Either you'll be put in your place in two weeks, or we'll still be arguing for another few months.

Are we sure there's only 7 episodes? Or are we autistic?

>>5821451
We aren't sure, but R07 said he'd give a "ruthless answer" in episode 7.

>>5820944
I find this very plausible. In EP4, one of Battler's theories involved someone inheriting Kinzo's name to correspond with Beato's red of >All of those who met at the family conference recognized the existence of Kinzo!

If it's true that one of the 17 inherited Kinzo's name, it's also likely that they're the culprit.

>>5820845
>I get the distinct impression that finding the gold may be one of the late steps of the epitaph, but it's not the FINAL step.

This is almost certainly correct, and the text supports it. Pic related.

So I just got to the part in Ep4 where Beatrice is revived, and I gotta say, GOD is this creepy if Shkanontrice is true.
It's like if Tyler Durden actually managed to kill Edward Norton's character.

>>5821460
So:
Jessica comes out of the closet, Natsuhi collapses.
Rudolf finally spills his guts and tell Kyrie & Battler "lol you guys are mother and son". They don't take the news well.
Joji tells his parents to fuck off only to be NTR'd hardcore by Shannon.
The culprit is revealed in a "you shall know my true form" fashion.

Meanwhile, Bernkastel is laughing her ass off.

>>5821532
I think this is actually referring to something R07 said in an interview - that some Japanese fans have 99% solved the epitaph, but if they were on Rokkenjima they could solve the rest. Featherine is a fan who's solved the mystery.

>>5821495
They only watched a video of Kinzo.
Inheriting the name of someone is stupid if you think about it, the only reason Beatrice couldn't deny it is simply because the way he worded it also included how ShKanon works.

>>5821644
>They only watched a video of Kinzo.

Or a recording, which is more likely. I've never heard of a video tape player on Rokkenjima, but an audio recording device, complete with gramophone, is mentioned once in Ep5 and, mysteriously, never brought up again.

>>5821644
Do recall that both of the female heads of the family- Eva and Ange, inherited the name 'Beatrice' when they took up the position.

I don't think it's such a stretch to say that the same principle could apply to the male heirs. Even if Kinzo is the one who made up that rule in his own lifetime. The new head of the family gets a new name to signify their position. Not an unheard of practice.

I don't get it. Why would you guys rage so hard over ShKannon? Because you guys predicted it already and are hoping you'll be surprised? You'll feel shitty that you figured it out before getting the real answer?

>>5821667
Because it's the most retarded plot element ever seriously proposed as a theory?

>>5821667

That's part of it. Part of it is also because Shannon and Kanon are boring shipperbait characters, part of it is because of how ludicrous the theory is when you think about how it would have to work, and part of it is because of us figuring it out too early, yes.

>>5821664
Except there is actually no hint that such a thing could happen.
Battler just threw it as a random theory because he was desperate

>>5821667
While I wouldn't say I'm raging personally, I don't like it just because it seems like a copout, but more importantly the theory's supporters have become pretty pig-headed about aggressively denying any other theory and call anyone who doesn't blindly accept it a fool.

Every case can be solved individually without Shkannon. And Shkannon is totally unneeded for dealing with a few closed rooms, and it's not even possible to explain some closed rooms with it (Natsuhi's room in Episode 2? The letter in the parlor? Hello?).

It's not a perfect theory, and it can't explain everything.

>>5821689
>he letter in the parlor? Hello
In episode 1, at 10pm, in a closed room in which Maria is present, a letter appears.
In episode 2, at 10pm, in a closed room in which Maria is present, the same letter appears.

>>5821683
>Except there is actually no hint that such a thing could happen.

Seriously? Are you trolling, or just dense? I just showed you a goddamn hint: Eva and Ange were given a title when they became the head. Beatrice.

The original author of Umineko is already dead. The existence of Feathere's forgeries is to tell us that he's been dead since the second game. After all, episode 1 and 2 were the best. Beato started acting like a romance comedy lead after that.

>>5821696
I mean getting the name of "Kinzo".
Beatrice is another thing.
And it's something that only really exist in the fantasy world

Here's an evolution of Kanzo theory. Behold:

SHKANZO

Shkanon is still in effect but: Remember EP3 where all of the servants were dead? (dead confirmed in red). Since it's already a fanfiction with the same setup as EP1-2, here's what happened:
Hearing the will of Kinzo, this time parents murdered Shkanzo and all of her servant supporters.

The only problem I have with that is:
Parents told that they found 6 bodies across the rooms (or did they?). Everyone went along with DID play except Battler for 2 years but if so, why did kids play along with 'we found 6 bodies'?

Captcha: genius derive

>>5821693
Problem there is that Battler was there and not distracted by the epitaph or anything else that time around. He never saw Maria set it down.

Anyway, where is Maria getting that letter from? Shkannon was dead at that time...

But setting that problem aside, Shkannon really can't explain Natsuhi's room, unless you're going to say Gohda or George suddenly killed the others and then themself as well.

And the way Rosa hustled Battler out after making sure those three were dead makes me think of Episode 5, when Kyrie stops Erika from searching Hideyoshi's room completely... So who was hiding in the closet this time?

>>5821740
Battler wasn't watching Maria. In fact, the reason Maria was thrown out of the room is because she wasn't being watched.

Maria could receive this letter at any point. She might receive it at any time and be told to present it at a certain time, or in a certain situation.

>>5821740
ShKanon can explain it.
It wasn't Shannon's body but Jessica with a nice hole in the middle of the forehead and a wig.
The reason Rosa panicked is simply because she knew this and was afraid that Battler would realize the truth.
But Battler only looked at the hole with the brain spilling for a few seconds, he didn't look at "Shannon" in detail.
Oh and Battler doesn't have the bullshit detective power of Erika something like this could happen

Krauss is Beatrice. As a young blonde trap, he was forced to play dress-up by Kinzo, who took the situation way too seriously. One day the old man went too far, hence BAD END.

>>5821740
About Natsuhi's room in episode 2, was it ever stated in red that there is no duplicate key? We know that all 5 master keys were taken by Rosa, but there might have been a duplicate of the normal key.

>>5821774
Given it's Natsuhi's room, it's plausible for Krauss for example to have a duplicate key.

Genji could have also acted as an accomplice, but have been locked outside the room by a dying victim.

>>5821774
All the red says is that Natsuhi's own key was in George's pocket.

>>5821758
Doubt it. Battler picked her head up to look at her. I kind of doubt he'd have been fooled when the hair he grabbed came off... Anyway, his status as the detective, and just common sense, says he should have been able to tell who it was when he had such a clear look.

>>5821774
Hmm. It wasn't. I kind of doubt that's going to be the answer in this case though. Someone could have simply been hiding someplace in the room since Battler never got a chance to thoroughly search it.

>>5821798
It's not that simple for just anyone to be in the room though.

>>5821800
You're right. The first six victims, for example, were confirmed dead with the red, so they're out. Kanon was never found, but he was confirmed dead with the red (and it's likely that he's sharing a body with Shannon, so that's out anyway). Nanjo and Kumasawa were quite dead when they turned up, and they were locked outside anyway. Same for Rosa's group.

But... well, I hate to say it, but Jessica might have been alive and killed the others in that room. Nanjo reported her dead, but after Episode 1 we know he's working with Kanon at the very least. And Jessica was there as well when Kanon 'died', so... The three of them (or four, or five... or however many damn people are in Shkannon's head) may all be in cahoots on some level.

We can't trust Nanjo's word, and Battler looked at her, but he had some doubt...

Well, if it wasn't Jessica, or a duplicate key, then it was a murder/suicide. Everyone else would have been locked out.

>>5821798
He can be fooled by a fake corpse, he doesn't have the detective authority.
And he just looked at the body for a few seconds.

>>5821819
Not necessarily murder-suicide, but a battle royale thing, which Genji could have cleaned up. They were after all locked up with a very mad personality, with one of the personalities that would fight it already dead.

>>5821825
It's true he can be fooled, but in this case, he actually was able to seen inside Shannon's skull. It's slightly different from EP6's setup and what happened in EP3. If someone wanted to use a fake corpse or disguised one, they would make more of an effort to keep it hidden.

>>5821832
Character-wise, a suicide by George would make sense, as would one by Shannon.

>>5821847
Like Rosa's screaming at him and being overtly flustered?
For an obvious accomplice (if you don't think she wasn't in episode 2, you have some problem) that most likely know that the house will be nuked soon, don't you think it's strange that she goes DON'T TOUCH HER, YOU'LL RUIN THE JOB OF THE POLICE like this?

>>5821832
How exactly would Genji have staked the victims through the locked door? With a duplicate key? The staking were performed in the correct positions (minus Shannon's which never went in or fell out), so it's not like he opened it up and shot them through the gap a chain allowed. And how exactly did that huge hole end up in Shannon's head, if not from a gun? Did George or Gohda take a stake and ram it through her skull with their dying breath?

I mean, the same issue comes up with the murder/suicide theory since we are missing a weapon other than the stakes, which aren't exactly the most practical murder weapons. But haven't we agreed in the past that the usual pattern is that the victims are shot, then staked in the hole?

>>5821857
Now that you mention it, it's pretty strange.

>>5821859
I mean that Genji was helping but was locked out by a dying person, of course.

>>5821864
Possible I suppose. It would probably have to be George though- Shannon's wound is pretty obviously an instant death, and Gohda's probably is as well. I suppose George could have held on long enough to lock the door.

But now this assumes that the stakes were the actual murder weapons. There wouldn't have been time to shoot the victims and then stake them if one of them was still alive after being shot.

>>5821857
I do think it's strange, but I was trying to figure out Rosa's thought process there. It's either because she thinks Shannon is Beatrice, or this entire getup is to frame her.
So when Battler touches Shannon, she figures since they're the last people alive (and apparently the only ones with guns/master keys in their possession) they'll be highly suspected if the police ever arrived.

Is it not possible that George (with Shannon) is the culprit?

Consider the fact that he has, (or so he says) the balls to kill a majority if not all of his family. This was stated in EP4 and then heavily reinforced in EP6, along with the fact that the guy is not as nice as he seems at a glance (EP6) and the fact that he survives right up to the end of every game if not the very end (Except for 5 and 4)

If you add in Shannon, then everything in the game can be solved. Shannon was never dead at first in Game 1 and 3, and george and her can systematically kill off the family one by one. Game 4 was so different because Jessica (Who I'm guessing will be revealed to actually be a moralfag bro all along), discovered his intentions and stopped him early, in the second twilight, but was unable to deal with Shannon before she was killed. Shannon then carries out the rest of the murders and suicides by the well, dropping the gun in it and hiding the evidence.

Could it not be *possible*? I'm not for or against Shkanon, but we know the truth is "complicated" and took "an hour to explain" from Ryukishi himself, via the voice actress for Beato in the Anime. It HAS to be more complicated than one person + ShKanon, right?

>>5821887
Sayaka knew the truth?
But did Daisuke?

>Shannon then carries out the rest of the murders and suicides by the well, dropping the gun in it and hiding the evidence.

That was my theory (her suicide by the well that is). Feels good to see it caught on a little. Thinking about it, the scene in Episode 2 was very similar... Shannon is dead with a stake NEAR her but not IN her, and no obvious method for her killer to have gotten away. Could she have killed herself after shooting George and Gohda, rigging up some trick to move the gun under the bed or something? She was lying face down in front of Natsuhi's dresser with the mirror broken... hmm...

>>5821885
Look at the way she runs at the end.
She knows about the bomb, she knows that the beach would be the only safe place.
Why would she care about some body? It's not possible she could think of being framed.

>>5821912

>That was my theory (her suicide by the well that is). Feels good to see it caught on a little

It's pretty much the only explanation. Battler could find no weapon and I think the game implied he searched all day for one. Since everyone's dead, it has to dissapear somewhere...by a body.

Lets assume Shkanontrice is wrong, now why can't they all have love? The answer might be be that they are on opposing sides. If George tells Shannon that he will marry her if she helps him kill the family, while Kanon is actually Beatrice and just wants to set up a game. Then all hell breaks loose and Kanon's mind breaks and Beatrice awakens to try and at least get Battler to remember her before everybody dies.

>>5821887
The only persons on the island who are always accomplices of Sayo are Genji, Kumasawa and Nanjo, that's pretty much sure.

Then Sayo can "buy" an acccomplice or two using the gold, after all THEY ALL NEED MONEY QUICKLY.
Rosa and Kyrie were most likely bought that way in episode 2 and 3.

Now George could have helped in episode 4 but he is Shannon's, not "Beatrice". I don't think he knows about the plan to kill everyone from the get go.

>>5821933
This doesn't explain "You are all incomplete humans not possessing full souls" and Shannon eating Kanon and Beatrice's souls to become complete.

Sounds a bit like Cell.

>>5821915
The text mentioned the 'ground shaking'. I think the explosion probably started a landslide, which Rosa was fleeing from. If she had gone into the Chapel when the house went up, looking for the gold, or maybe an accomplice, she doesn't need to have known about the bomb. She could just have been lucky.

>>5821927
>It's pretty much the only explanation.

Well, if we want to blame Jessica or Kyrie, they could have had Maria hide the gun someplace after they killed themselves. Battler wasted alot of time in front of the Chapel since he found a whole ring of keys there and assumed that one of them was for the Chapel door.

It's possible that the guns were stored back in Kinzo's room, since Battler never mentioned finding the key to the study. Maria had plenty of time to take a gun or two to the study (since Beatrice can't touch the doorknob *cackle*cackle*), lock them in, and then go to the dining room and take her poison or whatever.

I preferred the Shannon theory though, since it didn't require outside help.

>>5821946
Remember that Genji falls under the SAME category. Are you saying that Genji is now part of Shkasoghshtrice?

I just had a thought: everytime Shannon is found "dead" she's always face down, correct?

Peculiar.

>>5821955
Genji is the exception, not the rule. All other furniture in the game is not human by this theory. Not just Kanon, Shannon and Beatrice, but all the fantasy furniture. They are either split personalities, or personifications of objects/ideas.

>>5821915
I have disagree about the beach being safe; the boat captain was able to dock there after the explosion. It's not clear if she knew about the bomb the entire time, because normally you wouldn't wait until the last minute. But if she did, she ran in the wrong direction.

The servants might have been trying to get a reaction out of her when Kumasawa and Nanjo's bodies disappeared from the servants room to see if Rosa was lying about Kanon's death. Battler noticed that she went from safemode to then trying to confirm what they said was true. So it's like there's some kind of confusion between the two factions because neither wants to be blamed for his disappearance.

>>5821955
Genji doesn't fall in the same category.
He never says he doesn't have a full soul, just that he is furniture, he never says he was born like a furniture either.
Which is normal considering his status, he is like a samurai with Kinzo being his master, he only considers himself as a tool for him to use.

What you have to ask yourself is why 2 teenagers think like this?
They even think they weren't born as humans, how the fuck do you this is possible?

>>5821955
Someone presented a theory for this earlier. Shannon and Kanon based their furniture concept of Genji, but it means a little more to them. Ange noted this. It's more than just being servants. It's like observing his idea and then taking it way more seriously than intended, because unlike Genji they literally weren't human.

>>5821964
With such a small group, it's hardly a rule if you let even one exception go by. You're point is null.

>>5821982
Small group? Look at all the fantasy characters that are "furniture".

>>5821966
*my bad, I meant *wasn't able to dock there.

Did you guys miss how much it was stressed in episode 4 that furniture can't do what their master isn't prepared to do? That's because their master is their host. Ange was the host of the seven stakes, unless she was killing with her own hands, her stakes couldn't truly kill.

This doesn't apply to characters who are simply servants. Genji could easily do something as a servant his master was not willing to carry out himself.

I have some umineko related questions /jp/, and I hope that you can help me out.

Is Rosa the one who finds the gold in every game? Or at least in game 2, 3 and somewhat 5?
ep 2 since there was more than one bar of gold (krauss found only one, so the gold was found in ep 2)
ep 3 eva and rosa found it, but rosa wasn't excited at all, it looked like she knew about it long ago
ep 5 she gave battler the last hint

And why are there three people who are called beatrice?
Ange-Beatrice
Eva-Beatrice
and virgilia (former beatrice)

>>5821149
IT ALL MAKES SENSE NOW! THE BOMB WAS IN THE TOWER!

If Shkanon is true, how the fuck do you explain this? It just makes no sense. This is enough proof that Shkanon = denied.

>>5822091
What a moment to forget my picture...

>>5822065
>Is Rosa the one who finds the gold in every game?

Apparently not.. There was a possibility that someone would uncover the gold secretly, but there's a probable pattern when they do.

When Maria and Rosa die (1st twilight) --> Epitaph is solved.
Eva in episode 3 and Battler/Erika in 5. But this may not be necessarily true for Episode 6.

>>5822094
Shannon has to share her body with 2 other personalities, both who don't want to get married with that fatass.
Can't you see the problem and why she need magic to become a "full human"?

>>5822142
Stupid. She needs to get over her servant complex to be a full human, that's all.
>Could it not be merely that forbidden love between people of different classes would be impossible to manage without a miracle of magic....?

>>5822154
Do you have no reading comprehension whatsoever?
Love between people from different classes is possible without magic, especially in the 20th century, read the pics you posted yourself.

George was going to marry her, even if he had to go against his mother, it wasn't impossible at all.
But Shannon still thought that she needed magic, which mean the impossibility of the marriage didn't come from this problem.

>>5822162
And you get DID from this how...?

>>5822180
Soul that get divided, not a full human, etc...
Think of these without the magic bullshit.

>>5822185
You mean interpret in the retarded way you do.

>>5822189
Still 2 weeks to enjoy your denial.

Why would Shanon need magic though? If she is a female, she should still be fine. Just drop other personalities - and it's all good.

Unless she is not a female. Then sure, she would need magic.

>>5822201
Shannon isn't the master of the body, she can't just drop the other personalities.
Beatrice is stronger than her.

>>5822208
Are you counting Beatrice as another 'person' now?
Really it doesn't work with the reds. If Beatrice is the main personalities and each of Shanon and Kanon are counted as a person, then Beatrice must be counted as a person too.

The count doesn't work now.

>>5822208
This, Shannon is just the personality that shares a name with the original personality. In reality she's just as made up as the other two. Or just as fragmented as the other two.

>>5822217
Shannon and Kanon are never counted as separate when they are alive, they alternate.
When one is active, the other doesn't count anymore.
They are counted as separate in the dead count, which isn't the same thing.

AFTER THEIR DEATHS THEY GO TO THE GOLDEN LAND WHEN EVEN A FURNITURE CAN BECOME A FULL HUMAN.

>>5821969
KINZO created them with magic, along with Genji. Kinzo, *NOT* Battler.

>>5822226
Except they don't. The only ones who do are those who survive until the end, when witch revives. Furniture killed before that are just "laid to rest"/"relieved from duty".

>>5822266
Yes because magic exists and we knew about a sin of Kinzo's before episode 4

>>5822288
BEFORE episode 4? Before then Battler didn't have a sin either you know. If you mean by episode 4, then yes we do. He raped Beatrice. Not to mention he imprisoned another Beatrice in episode 3....

>>5822288
Magic don't exist, but you must think how it's possible from both viewpoints.
Yes, we know. But you just refuse to look at anything, besides your shitty theory.

>>5822284
FOOOOOOLS!
Did you even listen to a word of what my wise disciple Maria said?
It doesn't matter if they die! It doesn't matter if they die because in the end the end they go to the Golden Land! Every person killed goes to the Golden Land!
That's right, the Golden Land, that incredible place where everyone is happy without exception!
You know what is best about that wonderful place!? Everyone is equal there! Even furniture, is allowed to go there and be happy and love as they please!
And you know what's even better than that?
After dying and going to the Golden Land, even furniture, who is subhuman... becomes human!

>>5822308
Oh you.

>>5822308
Witch's game records;
furniture conversations in ep1-4;
beatrice conversations in ep1-4.

>"...You promised, right, Beato?! You promised that you would take Maria to the Golden Land, right?! There, would be friendly with Mama, and everyone would laugh together...! You promised that you would take us there, right?!"
>".........A, ...about that. ...I can no longer, ...keep that promise. .........Because someone appeared who could solve the riddle, ......I am no longer the Golden Witch, Beatrice. ......So, sorry. ...I can no longer keep my promise with you......"

>>5822329
That was Beatrice being a troll to fool Battler, you know that the monologue above happened in the game, right?

>>5822335
Yeah, sure. And no one was killed either. Even if what you say is true, 3 other points still stand.

>>5822335
It does? Where?

>>5822357
Episode 2

Anyways the golden land stuff isn't a proof, it's just fantasy bullshit.

But there is a very simple proofs that Shannon and Kanon aren't counted as separate when they are alive but are when they die.

This proof is simply in the definition of instant death given by Beatrice in episode 3 and the "everyone else" in episode 6.

>>5822368
Beato really struggles to give that 6 people are dead red in episode 3.

>>5822335

Beato trolled Battler because he was an incompetent and couldn't defeat Evatrice

>>5822764

Evatrice never existed to begin with; the entirety of Ep3 is one big troll.
I can't believe people are even trying to deny this.

>>5823404
Except she came up with this plan partway through the game.

>>5823431

She did... but you'll notice it was before Evatrice even showed up.
The minute she does is also the minute Beato starts acting all moe and helpless... which eventually tricks Battler into accepting her as a witch.

There's a secret passage in the closet of Battler's closed room.
Waiting for Knox.

>>5823496

Only passages that count as "secret" are "ones the detective cannot find".
There was no detective in Ep6.

>>5823475
> which eventually tricks Battler into accepting her as a witch.
That wasn't the problem; the problem was Battler ignoring the huge clue that she gave him right before then, namely, CONFIRMING THAT THERE IS A HUMAN CULPRIT. Because of that, she had to troll him at the very end to get him back on track. She didn't want to stop the trick, but she had to throw her victory so that Battler would get back to figuring out the truth.

In other words, most of Episode 3 was indeed a trick, but only at the very end did Beato make it seem like it was supposed to be at troll, when in reality that wasn't its purpose at all.

>>5823475
>The minute she does is also the minute Beato starts acting all moe and helpless... which eventually tricks Battler into accepting her as a witch.

Did you read ep V?

They explained what Beato truly wanted

>>5823527
Hell, they explain what Beato actually wanted in Episode 3. "To have Battler reach the truth without having it just given to him."

>>5823513
That's exactly the point.
The disappearance of Kanon is pretty easy to explain even without the Shkannon bullshit.

>>5823540
Then explain where Kanon's body is in episode 4.
Or 2.

>>5823549
It's dressed up as Shannon's corpse, so Shannon can move around freely under the guise of being dead. It was in plain view the entire time.

>>5823549
Forest. Next room. Mystery solved.

>>5823563

Wait a minute. If they're not the same person, they're at least supposed to be twins, right?

...Couldn't that confirm that... Shannon is still alive in Ep2 as well?

>>5823527

Oh, I'm aware of that. However, her "official" goal in the game, as decreed by Lambda, is to have Battler accept her as a witch.

What she wants =/= her actual victory conditions. That's why she died.

Ep3 is one giant trick/troll/whatever. Beato is acting throughout it; she's not that helpless and moe and I don't see how anyone can deny that.

>>5823665
While it doesn't confirm anything, the possibility exists, yes. I think the 'they're twins and can pull a Shion/Mion' theory is also plausible, and can explain a few oddities in the story, like Kanon's corpse going missing in Ep 2 and 4.

You can also explain why Shannon's corpse is stowed so far in the back in Ep 1, as well as one of the red truths of that game, by assuming that Shannon corpse = Kanon's corpse.

# All of the survivors have alibis! Let us include the dead as well!! In short, no kind of human or dead person on the island could have killed Kanon!

Because he was already dead.

>>5823700

Shannon and Kanon are actually twin reverse trap lolis with (not very long) dark hair.

...Huh. That's an interesting possibility indeed.

>>5823700
So you just want R07 to rehash ShMion.
You sure think greatly of him

>>5823719
Shkanon is a reverse Shmion anyway.

>>5823496
Well done, but the way Kanon escaped the closed room is supposed to be a key to many other closed rooms in the game.

>>5823734
The guestroom is in the mansion, right?
Who's to say that isn't the same guestroom used in Ep2 and Ep5?

>>5823734
I still think people are selectively misinterpreting that interview a bit, but oh well.

>>5823738
I don't remember who died in the guest room in those episodes.

>>5823758
Could be, but I'm fairly convinced it must have some heavy relevance in any case.

>>5823734
You mean this one?
Probably true but it is still shit.

>Ep3 is one giant trick/troll/whatever. Beato is acting throughout it; she's not that helpless and moe and I don't see how anyone can deny that.

Kanon and Shannon have the same identity, they are differnt person, but they are both Shannon and Kannon at the same time.

How does Shkannonfags explain that no one wonders were Kanon was in both ep V and VI?

They are both in the same room.

>>5823971
>no one wonders were Kanon was in both ep V and VI?
It was never shown.
You know the scene where they all act surprised about Kanon disappearance? Enjoy your FANTASY scene.

>>5819680

The perspective doesn't matter. If Erika noticed that Shannon and Kannon were not in the same room at the same time (which she would have since she was trying to control the positions of all of the characters in both Episode 5 and 6), she would have fucking noticed. Yeah, the scene took place from Battler's POV, but the detective's authority would have still allowed Erika to notice this crucial fact.

>>5823994
>It was never shown.

I don't get this

Erika tells them to splot all the people in different room, Kanon disappear and no one say anything?

>>5824066
There is no scene in ep5 or ep6 with Erika talking to both Shannon and Kanon at the same time.
Point invalid, as long as the narrator did not present the scene in question, no such shit happened.
CLOSE BOX THEORY DO YOU KNOW IT?
START->[not shown]->END

Van Dine's 11th: A servant must not be chosen by the author as the culprit. This is begging a noble question. It is a too easy solution. The culprit must be a decidedly worth-while person — one that wouldn't ordinarily come under suspicion.

>>5823948
That means she felt bad about tricking him, not that she wasn't tricking him.
You're a moron if you think her redemption act was the real thing. It's so painfully fake and horribly written that there's no way it can be.

>>5824098


wat

>>5824149

I'm saying she really wanted to be a friend relationship with him, but she had to troll him in the end he's stupid and accepted the witch.

>>5824194
Just an example.

Erika tell those greedy and stupid siblings to split them to two room.
All events are not shown. <- [Close box theory]
Erika was told they have been split to two group.

This is the basis of the game. No one know what happened between the period because it was skipped.

>>5824213
Sure, but her redemption act wasn't the real thing. She's not as evil as she appears, but she's not all weak and deredere, either.

>>5824238

Oh, i see

But this would imply everyone lied to Erika

>>5824265
Of course they did.
Did you even read ep6? They were playing a prank on her but she REKILLED everyone?

>>5824272

Rudolf and Hideyoshi didn't seem aware of the prank, Rudolf even said he regretted he wasn't able to tell Battler the "truth"

>>5824098
>There is no scene in ep5 or ep6 with Erika talking to both Shannon and Kanon at the same time.

Oh really?

>>5824272
Fuck ep6. In ep5 she ORDERED them to gather in the parlor, using her detective's authority. They just can't refuse. And she still doesn't give a fuck about someone who's missing, yeah.

I know your excuses for this, you don't need to tell me.

Is the detective's authority supposed to give a scene more or less credibility? I mean it's supposed to be an indicator of absolute truth, but it mostly amounts to mind control. Shouldn't that invalidate a scene just as quickly as if someone got into a magic fight?

>>5824926

"Detective authority" exists in every mystery novel.

>>5824343
That is just the narration.
And when she did interact with them

".........Oh, sorry. Could you close that door for me?"
"Y, yes..."
Shannon and Kanon closed the door.

She is only talking to 1person but the narration show 2.

>>5826172

So someone has to be referred to by name each time they are spoken to in order for them to be accepted as an individual?

>>5826200
The game clearly show that we have 16people+Erika at the end of ep6.
So it is either you believe the RED which confirm shkanon or the ERIKA doesnt exist nonsense or someone else that is already dead but made to be looked alive like Kinzo.

>>5826325
>So it is either you believe the RED which confirm shkanon or the ERIKA doesnt exist nonsense or someone else that is already dead but made to be looked alive like Kinzo.

Or you understand how Umineko closed box works.

Erika never reacted to the island, she spelled it for you before dying

"I AM THE WITCH OF TRUTH, I HAVE TO ACCEPT THE FINAL TRUTH ABOUT MYSELF"

>>5826343
So we are disregarding Red now?
#Furudo Erika only increases it by one person.

Ok then time to update my memo on yet another ridiculous stupid umineko theory.

>>5826480
>#Furudo Erika only increases it by one person.

Furudo Erika only increases what by one person? Lambda never uses any hard numbers, just refers to it being the same as the previous game. The only thing used in the previous game was the upper limit of people. So Erika increases the upper limit of people by one, and it actually means absolutely nothing and is yet another bullshit trick in the loveless gameboard of EP5.

>>5826480
>So we are disregarding Red now?
#Furudo Erika only increases it by one person.

Oh, you silly Shkannonfags.

Like red text between episodes don't contradict each other.

Erika IS the 18 person in ep V and VI. She existed, she witness and talk to the people in that truth.

Too bad, that was the wrong truth.

>>5826500
>>5826343
Fine. Erika doesnt exist then.
Go delete ep5 and ep6 off your hdd if you are disregarding them. Seriously this is even more retarded than shkanon.

>>5826511
Just because Erika's existence in EP5 and EP6 was a bullshit illusion doesn't mean everything in them is worthless. More things were going on in them besides Erika running around trolling, believe it or not, bro.

>>5826511

The thing is is that she existed in games 5 and 6 because just like everything else on the island there is ambiguity to what really happened.

However she has no part in the "real" truth of what happened on the island and in that way Battler and Beatrice were able to deny her existance.

In the real truth of what happened on Rokkenjima Erika fell off of her boat and drowned, nothing more nothing less.

>>5826511
Shkanon relies on all the human characters being idiots. Erika-not-existing relies on a narrative trick and the Illusion of the Witch.
Which is more preferable?

>>5826511
>Fine. Erika doesnt exist then.

Again, you don't seem to grasp how Umineko works.

You keep thinking Erika is a dead body that walk like a ghost between people when they say she "doesn't exist"

You don't understand the cat metaphor and you don't think of any pov other than the one inside Rokkenjima.

Do you realize that ep 1-4 contain different truths and realities as well?

>>5826528
>>5826520
I like how you guys close your eyes and ears to the last line of ep6.
If she existed it mean there is 16people on the Island.
It is as simple as that.
Stop being stupid and start complicating thing for yourself.

# [......Sorry, but...] Even if you do join us-
# There are 17 people.

>>5826562
I like how you close your eyes and ears to Erika flat out telling you what those lines actually mean beforehand. Oh wait, did you ignore them because they weren't written in red?

>>5826562

"Even if you"
"Even if"
Even If you join us, there are 17 people
Even if you don't join us, there are 17 people

It doesn't change if she reaches the island or not, they still 17.
Because she's deeeeead.

>>5826549
Erika's existence was always fucking weird. Yeah, let's totally swallow without question a Mary Sue detective washing up on the island with magic detective powers who spends their time psychotically taping up all the doors and windows in anticipation of a murder mystery without any sleep whatsoever because that's just how she rolls.

>>5826572
Exactly.

Erika said it herself. She is the 18th person.

Too bad the existence of the 18th person gets denied.

So hard to grap

>>5826572
>>5826569
Oh yes sir.
The girl that is walking around in ep5 and ep6 as detective-san is clearly dead. Right.

Beatrice is already dead.

>>5826590
Oh good, you finally caught on to what the story is blatantly screaming in your face at the end of EP6.

>>5826574
Exactly. I don't see why /jp/ is so intent on keeping her alive when she makes no fucking sense.
It's okay guys. You can still like her even though she's only a magic character like Gaap and Ronove.
>>5826585
Early setup for Hachijou, although most of said setup is in Ep5.

>>5826590

I'm starting to believe you are trolling

>>5826590

Actually, if you examine the location of everyone in red during both Ep5 and Ep6, it's possible for Erika to be Shannon.

>>5826615

Not this shit again

>>5826602
Hell, I pretty much only like Erika on the premise of her not existing. It gives so much more meaning to her ending and makes her kind of a poetically tragic character.

With the whole Erika not existing shit, has anyone noticed that you can Execute the meta-version in the post game tips? She just straight up disappears.

>>5826590

Yes, that's what Schrodinger's cat is.

Erika is the cat in the box, was she alive or dead? Both are true until Beato and Battler revealed she never made to the island. She's dead, puff, the wrong answer disappear>>5826609


She was written by Hachijou or inserted there by Bern, depend how you want to see it, whatever.

>>5826609
I am being sarcastic genius.
This say a lot about your reading comprehension for you to be able to come up with such retarded theory.

>>5826629

No, seriously. We don't even know Shannon's real name. It's not stated in red. Why couldn't it be "Erika Ushiromiya" or something like that?

Also note that when Erika first shows up, Meta-Beatrice is already dead, and remains so until just before Erika dies. Might be symbolic, no?

>>5826659

No, it doesn't.

>>5826658
>theory
>Meta-world tips clearly shows she doesn't exist
>Piece-world tips clearly stated she was added into the stories by Hachijou

Just take Erika out of this; as someone already pointed out, she's dead and was the 18th person to the island (her corpse drifted). The 17 people was clearly referring to the 17 alive (consistent with kinzo confirmed dead, count came down from 18->17). The two reds don't conflict.

>>5826615
If the person on the gameboard who Meta Erika represents is not actually Erika herself, then it's much more likely that she's Jessica or Genji in Episode 6. They're the only ones who never have their names mentioned in red in that Episode.