/jp/ - Otaku Culture

Six is more than one hand.

>>5779987
well, thats my point, you know?

Why is there cussing in this?

>>5779987

Battler:
X has 4 fingers
O is retarded

>>5780010
I snickered.

>would you kindly explain this?
it was not shannon body
it's possible that it's erika's corpse

battler always hides his 4 fingers with his hand in his pocket

explained

That's the thing, Battler mentions everyone explicitly except Shannon. Also, George cannot properly see Shannon. There is a sixth 'corpse' that Battler can see, but It doesn't have to be dead or even a person. Could be a bunch of fertilizer bags dress up in clothes covered up by Hideyoshi and Kanon who won't let anyone else see.

Why don't you think for yourself instead of scrounging up tiny pieces of evidence so you can remain happily ignorant?

Battler only sees it around the corner. He doesn't look at it right in the face and UOOOOOOOOOOOOOO about how disfigured it is like he does for everyone else.

battler is a dumb shit anyways

There's no evidence of anybody getting a good view at Shannon. Kanon had to point at Shannon's ring for Hideyoshi to notice it. Nanjo inspected a body but it's doubtful he would check them all, seeing as he can clearly see their faces torn apart.

It's also specious how there's absolutely NO red about EP1's twilight. None whatsoever.

There's no evidence of anybody getting a good view at Shannon. Kanon had to point at Shannon's ring for Hideyoshi to notice it. Nanjo inspected a body but it's doubtful he would check them all, seeing as he can clearly see their faces torn apart.

It's also suspicious how there's absolutely NO red about EP1's twilight. None whatsoever.

The first twilight of episode 1 is also in the Chiru OP. The real question is why Hideyoshi is going along with it. Something else curious about episode 1, Battler never sees Hideyoshi's corpse.

>>5780029
# Furudo Erika had no **influence** on any of Beato's games before now.
# She does not exist in the worlds before this one, nor does she **influence** them.

Too bad you want to deny any Erika's existence in those games too.

>>5780079

we get some red in ep 4 red/blue fight

>>5780095

he really has no motive so he can just be doing that all coincidentally, you see the guy really bawwing his ass off in 5 i doubt he's involved

# Regarding the unidentified corpses, all of their identities are guaranteed. Therefore, no body double tricks exist!

>>5780127
The only line that pertains to EP1's twilight is

the identities of all unidentified corpses are guarantee

Which is so vague that it's near useless.

>>5780095
I'm not sure about that. I only noticed this earlier today, but after Kanon 'died' Battler compared the stake that appeared to have pierced him to the ones in Eva and Hideyoshi. But maybe it was described to him?

Regardless, Hideyoshi playing along with a scheme to create a fake body for Shannon and hide her alter persona schtick just feels odd. What is the point? What does he gain? And why create a fake body in the first place?

>>5780154
But Shannon's case was identifiable. And if Shkannon is capable of killing her personality like EP6's suggests then she just has to kill her Shannon personality and Shannon is dead. People see X as Shannon and since Shannon died, there's no contradiction.

>>5780154
Look at the scene where Battler says that.
>We can explain the one who performed the murder with culprit X, who hid away using an unidentified corpse. In the first place, their three faces were also smashed. It's completely possible that one of them was a body-double corpse!
He's saying that someone who appeared to have their face completely smashed was actually another person in their clothes with their face completely smashed. The 'unidentified' refers to the fact that they couldn't confirm from their faces. By this definition however, Krauss and Shannon are 'identified' because according to Battler and a third-person narrator respectively, they still had half their faces. Furthermore, what Beatrice is denying is another, different corpse taking the place of these unidentified corpses. Therefore, there's no problem if what Battler saw wasn't a corpse at all.

>>5780181
Those are things you will have to answer, not decide to dismiss the theory because it raises these questions. By using the key of Shkanontrice, we can see that Hideyoshi's actions are called into question. Thus he becomes a possible accomplice/culprit.

Someone come up with a clever nickname for Shkanontrice. Shkanontrice is too bothersome to type all the time.

>>5780225
slut

>>5780225
SKB

>>5780154
>>5780197
>>5780205
And if someone of them wasn't dead, but just played dead, he/she wasn't a 'corpse' in the first place.

sktrice

>>5780205
This is an old idea and has been pretty much removed from all consideration, but I speculated once that the real double was one of the LIVING people on the island. The real person had died, been skillfully replaced, and their body hidden on the island until such time as it could be placed with the rest in the first twilight.

Since then, the idea of someone using a name other than their own has been struck down of course.

But in it's place is the blue that "No rule ever stated that something other than a corpse cannot be called a corpse".

I really hate Episode 2... Fuck you Jessica and your vague goddamn red. Why can't you have clearly faked your death like 'Kanon' in Ep 1?

>>5780225

NTR-chan

Shkanon/trice is a red hering.

Kanons real name is Battler.

>>5780225
Meido

>>5780292
>It has already been said in red that all people can only use their own names.
People keep re-defining this red so it means nothing at all. Like Erika said, it cancels out so many tricks you could use.

Erika tried to say Kanon's real name was George. This red made sure that she couldn't try anything else stupid, including "Kanon's real name is Battler"

All theories besides Shkanontrice rely on bending this red so it means nothing.

>All theories besides Shkanontrice rely on bending this red so it means nothing.

Err, they do?..

>>5780218
>By using the key of Shkanonntrice, we can see that Hideyoshi's actions are called into question

And all of the other servants, since they lie to cover for Shannon or Kanon's whereabouts at various times. Kumasawa and Genji at least.

And Jessica, since she probably helped Kanon fake his death in Episode 1, putting on a big show for the others after he 'died'. And let's not forget Nanjo.

And all of the adults who went around finding bodies in Episode 3.

And even Erika herself somehow failed to notice that one of the two of them was always absent, even in that scene where 'everyone' was gathered.

It's just really hard to swallow. On it's own, or under other circumstances it might be acceptable, but goddamn, I think Battler is about the only person who DOESN'T know (at least until Ep 5 perhaps).

>>5780326
Yes, it actually means nothing at all, just like a red from a witch is supposed to be, because I can say that 'Battler' is Kanon's OWN name too. And Erika is too dumb to realize that.

>>5780337
Yes. Kanon is using the name Kinzo, Kanon is Battler, and so on.

>>5780351
>And all of the other servants, since they lie to cover for Shannon or Kanon's whereabouts at various times. Kumasawa and Genji at least.
All of the servants were in on the Kinzo group lie thing. That was all just foreshadowing for a greater lie that's more important.

>And all of the adults who went around finding bodies in Episode 3.
They find Shannon first and Kanon last, it can be explained if just one of them is in on it.

>>5780380
Erika isn't too dumb to realize that, she tries 'Kanon's real name is George' after all.

She had it all wrong, she thought it must be that two people are using the same name, but in reality it was that two names actually referred to only one body all along.

>>5780387
>All of the servants were in on the Kinzo group lie thing. That was all just foreshadowing for a greater lie that's more important.
Except Kinzo wasn't going around killing them at the same time.

>>5780401
Except when they see that someone has falsely killed Kinzo, they don't kick up a storm about it and admit to their wrongdoing. They keep it all to themselves. Natsuhi won't admit Kinzo is dead no matter what, likewise she wouldn't betray the secret of Shkanon because Shkanon is privy to Kinzo's secret.

>>5780414
Except Kinzo's lie doesn't pose immediate threat to their lives, unlike crazy ultra-meido.

>>5780351
It's not as hard to accept if you consider that:

a.) Episode 6 makes clear that even though she's worked there for ten years, Shannon is normally only on duty at the mansion for 3 days a week, and that she probably doesn't live there.

b.) It's stated in red that Beatrice is the rightful owner of all the gold in the Golden Land, and that she doesn't need anyone to solve the epitaph for her to get a hold of it; furthermore, Episode 3's tips refer to the bank pin # as being able to "open a small Golden Land." To translate this into real terms, what it probably means is that the bank accounts in Episode 4 were probably set up by Shannon for the express purpose of bribing people to do certain things during the conference - paying people to keep quiet about her identity would be very easy.

Or Kinzo isn't dead, but his name passed on. So "Kinzo the head" is dead.
shkanon+kinzo alive=17 people on the island.
Umineko solved

This is pretty unrelated, but has anyone else noticed that some things are said extremely confidently in white before they are said in red?
-Kyrie in episode 1 deduces that there's definitely no extra person, but Battler keeps trying to explain it using a person X. Even after an 18th person X is denied in episode 3, he tries to use a 17th person X since Kinzo is dead.
-At the end of episode 1, everyone deduces that everyone's locations were confirmed when Kanon was attacked, so it was a hint that a 19th person exists. Battler tries to worm out of this by saying the alibis could have been lies and that Kumasawa could have killed him and so on, but in episode 4 it's confirmed that all those alibis are guaranteed.

>>5780430
To Natsuhi and Krauss in episode 5, Kinzo being revealed to be dead means ruining them. They view it as the same. Natsuhi in particular would never betray the secret. In fact, looking at episode 3, Natsuhi and Krauss might have thought something like "That can't be kinzo's corpse, that can't be Shannon/Kanon's corpse" but stayed quiet about it wondering what it meant.

>>5780434
Except bank accounts were set up by Kinzo, confirmed in extra TIPS. And letters were probably sent to all involved, because Ange also received one.

>>5780460
Can you paste where it confirms Kinzo set up the accounts?

If we take Shkannontrice at face value, why is it that Shannon and Kanon are counted among the 'people' on the island (the 'human' count being higher presumably because of Kinzo or maybe Erika's bodies), but Beatrice is not? She was 'born' even before Kanon was (if you take that scene in Ep 6 to heart).

And don't tell me "It's because she's a witch". That's some bullshit and you know it. You count a person with three personalities as one person, or three people, not two.

>>5780326
yeah, and shkanontrice isn't bending any red at all.

> # Regarding the unidentified corpses, all of their identities are guaranteed. Therefore, no body double tricks exist!
>there are 5 master keys
>there is one master key, one for each servant
and so on

>>5780351
As a fun fact, they're gathered in the same room about 4 or more times during the entire course of Episode 5.

#1 - In the parlor in the beginning.
#2 - Kinzo's study.
#3 - The parlor again after the first twilight.
#4 - Right in front of her at the same time after Hideyoshi's 'murder'. (pictured)

So that means that everyone must be in on it. Everyone. Including the super detective, who isn't allowed to falsify her viewpoint.

>>5780457
Except both Natsuhi and Krauss are dead in ep2, and Kumasawa and Nanjo still don't want to reveal it. I'm not even talking about Genji since you probably will say that he's furniture and therefore somehow must be going along with the murders without questions, but these two don't seem like they are ready to die at any moment for appeasing ultra-meido.

>>5780486
>Regarding the unidentified corpses, all of their identities are guaranteed. Therefore, no body double tricks exist!
A corpse is a dead body, no bending there. As someone already said, the unidentified corpses are the ones with faces completely smashed. The problem is people ignoring the context of the red and just looking through the red text on the wiki for something that helps their case.
>there is one master key, one for each servant
As has been shown in episode 6, person = personality. Shannon and Kanon are treated as two people by everyone, so they accepted as people and therefore by servants.

>>5780460
If that tiny little interview of vagueness and omission confirms anything, then episode 6 definitely confirms Shkanontrice.

>>5780475
Can you at least try the usual place.
http://umineko.wikia.com/wiki/TIPS/A_Certain_Witch_Hunter%27s_Interview_Tape

>>5780493
>Kumasawa and Nanjo still don't want to reveal it

Kumasawa and Nanjo are almost certainly being bribed. I don't have it on hand, but if you look at the twilight/killings chart, they're almost always killed on the same twilight and pierced with the same stake.

>>5780490
No it doesn't. We aren't looking through Erika's eyes. Nothing Erika says shows that she acknowledges she is talking to two unique people.

>>5780504
according to the whole shkanontheory
the adults know about them, why would they give them 2 keys, if they are the same person?

>>5780504
Yeah, because Shannon is also a great businesswoman in her spare time and can earn 2 billions easily. Or she just went to the local bank with 1 ton of golden bars and sold them there. Sure.

>>5780527
It's not really about 'giving them two keys'. There are usually different servants on duty, so the keys might not actually belong to any servant in particular. There just might be a maximum of five.

>>5780483
Shhh..You'll get the Shkanontricefriends mad!

>>5780516
We aren't looking through Battler's eyes when he gets shot in Ep 3, but according to Ryukishi;

>Concerning the scene where Battler is shot, since Battler witnesses the moment the gun is fired, basically there is no mistake about that.

According to him, that doesn't seem to matter.

>>5780515
I'm aware that for this shit to work everyone must be bribed, you don't have to remind me.

>>5780504
>As has been shown in episode 6, person = personality.

That was never explicitly stated. It was just Ange's speculation, which Hanyuu neither confirmed nor denied. And that's still avoiding the issue of Beatrice not being counted even though she's a personality too.

>>5780554
Battler's perspective is formed by two things - truthful player (meta world Battler), detective piece. Erika only has one of those.

Unless you're saying that all those magic scenes with Erika are true.

>>5780567
Because is not counted because she is not accepted as a person by everyone like Shannon and Kanon are. Battler refuses to acknowledge her no matter what. She has a half-existence where she can only exist if everyone says she does, the same goes for Shannon and Kanon.

>>5780568
'Those magic scenes' are just metaphors for logic battles. I thought after 6 episodes anyone must get it, but alas.

>>5780600
Alas what? Then Shannon and Kanon being two people is just a metaphor for them being one person. You can't pick and choose like this. You're only saying that those scenes are reliable because you want them to be.

>>5780600
>I thought after 6 episodes anyone must get it

This is the highest of all ironies coming from someone who didn't get DID meido.

>>5780610
Sure is great logic here.

>>5780507
>>5780460
Nowhere does it say that Kinzo set up the bank accounts, just that he loaned ~10% of the gold to an unnamed "chairman" and that this gold ended up in said chairman's spending money.

>>5780626
It is. By what logic do you say 'Erika being in the presence of Shannon and Kanon according to a third-person narrator is absolute proof that they are two people' and at the same time say 'Erika being in the presence of, and being involved in, a magical battle of red and blue and magical furniture is just a metaphor, not to be taken at face value'?

Oh wait, there is no logic, you moron.

>>5780581
You're telling me that Eva and Rosa acknowledge Shannon as a 'person'? Or Kanon for that matter? Give me a break.

You totally misunderstood that analogy in that image anyway- it's a matter of self-realization. Shannon and Kanon exist because they acknowledge themselves, not because they need some outside confirmation. Their worlds are defined by their experiences, so if the only world they know is the bottom of the well, then that is their world. Shannon's view has broadened. Kanon's is narrow.

hey guys, if've got a question

why are eva, ange and virigila treated as beatrice
>eva-beatrice
>ange-beatrice
>former beatrice (virgilia)

beatrice is the manefistation of the rules of the game, right? so, why are there three people who are called beatrice?

>>5780644
Everything in the meta world is a goddamn metaphor. Are you really that stupid?

>>5780653
There is no doubt they acknowledge both of them as people. They just view them as people who are far below themselves. To them, it's not an issue of whether they are people or not, but whether all people are equal.

The point is, those fish can believe that, but if someone bypases the language barrier and clearly tell them that they are not in the sea, and demonstrate what the sea really is, then their magic is broken. This is the same for anyone who is not fooled by Shannon and Kanon's crap, the truth is exposed and the magic of them being two people is broken.

>>5780664
You are the stupid one. Where do you draw the line between meta-world and the gameboard world? What about the scenes where Erika on the gameboard is screaming about things in the meta world, then everyone acts as if it didn't really happen?

>>5780658
I'd imagine that, since all of the gold was Beatrice's anyway, the name 'Beatrice' is the name taken by the female inheritor of the headship of the family, or the controller of the gold.

Similar to Battler's theory that the male head takes the name 'Kinzo'.

But then, Virgilia is actually Kumasawa. So that means...

>>5780568
Might as well claim that all of Battler's observations aren't trustworthy either because we don't see 90% of the scenes he's in through his eyes, and because he's also in metascenes with Beato.

The detective viewpoint is a piece's perspective. This is 100% fact, because many scenes that meta-Battler sees are -magic scenes-. The meta-player or whatever you want to call it doesn't come into this at all.

Erika, the piece, cannot falsify her viewpoint. She is the detective. Dlanor even uses this as a point with which to attack Battler in Ep 5's ????, about how it's totally impossible for the detective to lie about what they see. (The detective is required to have an objective VIEWPOINT.)

If you want to deny this you're pretty much claiming that;
A) Ep 5 was entirely pointless. This includes introducing Dlanor into the mix.
B) One of the rules of the game doesn't matter.
C) Knox's Decalogue has no bearing on the game whatsoever. (Hint: It does.)

The rules are sacred.

>>5780643
Well, then that TIP is useless, because that is all what it says. Ryu sure loves to write useless TIPS.
Also: >>5780528

>>5780581
Haha, oh wow. I never thought about the aquarium visit and how it tied to the whole metaphor about the sea.

Good catch - thank you.

>>5780688
They are just being polite and you're being fooled by a narrator. Good work.

>>5780643
'Chairman' is Kinzo himself.

>>5780490

Thank you. I can forget about Shkanon now, right?

>>5780691
Anyone who claims Shkanontrice is false is saying the majority of episode 6 is pointless. Nobody can come up with a decent explanation for much of the meta-activity there and they try to wave it off as a troll or red herring of bullshit fantasy that isn't to be considered at all.

>Might as well claim that all of Battler's observations aren't trustworthy either because we don't see 90% of the scenes he's in through his eyes, and because he's also in metascenes with Beato.
No, this is what your argument always devolves into - "Meta world Battler and gameboard Battler are the same person". They are not the same person, but in episodes 1-4, one controls the other. With this control together, they create a perfect perspective. In episode 5, when Battler is no longer in control of his piece, Bern has the piece do all kinds of fantasy shit. They are not the same.

The detective's perspective is 'what the detective sees'. Do we ever see 'what the detective sees' in episode 5? No, there is never any narration by Erika in episode 5, she conveniently only gets narration in episode 6 when she is no longer the detective.

Unlike episodes 1-4, we don't see the game through a reliable player using his reliable piece. We aren't being told lies by Erika, we're being told lies by someone else altogether. We simply do not watch episode 5 through Erika's viewpoint.

>A) Ep 5 was entirely pointless. This includes introducing Dlanor into the mix.
No, it is just more questionable than other episodes. Hilariously exaggerated strawman argument, but even if the gameboard scenes were unreliable, there are many important revelations in episode 5, like how Kinzo's death being hidden is achieved.
>B) One of the rules of the game doesn't matter.
No.
>C) Knox's Decalogue has no bearing on the game whatsoever. (Hint: It does.)
No, but your interpretation of it does have no bearing, ie "The detective's perspective is any scene that the detective is in"

>>5780746
No, Kinzo is "the previous head." The "Chairman of Maruso" is someone else entirely, probably the guy to whom it's mentioned that Kinzo showed the gold as collateral, after which he was able to get the loans and support to rebuild his business.

>>5780730
>and you're being fooled by a narrator
So you just admitted it? The narrator is the one doing the fooling, this includes fooling the reader into thinking Shannon and Kanon are the same person.

Think about what you actually say.

>>5780486
>>there are 5 master keys
>there is one master key, one for each servant

Shannon could have hidden a key elsewhere and only kept one on her. I wouldn't consider them bending the red. It's a loophole.

>>5780758
Not quite.

>>5780490
>So that means that everyone must be in on it. Everyone.

They are. Remember what Ronove said about how the game "resembled Milady's," but was without love/honor? Incidentally, this is also the solution to the question about the knock - everyone agreed to lie about having heard it.

>>5780770
>"The detective's perspective is any scene that the detective is in"
And it's true. And by your logic the culprit can massacre dozen people in the presence of the detective if that scene is not narrated from his POV.

>>5780681
This is based on the assumption that neither Shkannon, nor the family and servants on the island are aware of this deception.

Shannon and Kanon are aware that they share a body, else those conversations in Episode 6 mean something totally different. And everyone (or at least some) on the island is aware of this too, so that bubble should be long burst. The frogs know they are in the well. They can't fool themselves into believing it's the sea any longer.

So again, why isn't Beatrice counted? Even if 'everyone' doesn't acknowledge her, at least some people do. That seems like a flimsy dodge of the rules if a 'person who is not recognized as a person' can take action while also not technically existing.

This is what you look like Shkanonfag. It really dumbfounds me when I think about how you're still holding on to this retarded, endlessly disproved theory in episode 6, 4 whole episodes after it was spawned from some retard's head. As they say, there's no limit to human stupidity.

>>5780780
Sorry, you're an idiot.

>>5780809
For Erika, they can. For Battler, they can't. The player Battler won't allow his piece to be involved in stuff like that, but the narrator we have for episode 5 allows it. This is why Erika is always saying impossible things, and taking part in magic battles.

>>5780490
This is the nasty trick Ryukishi07 mentions in an interview.

The POV isn't Erika's, it's Battler's. Erika is the detective but the narrative is Battler's. And EP5 itself states that Battler's narrative is unreliable because he saw Kinzo. There's no proof that Shannon and Kanon were in the same room. It's a fantasy scene. Any dialog directed towards Kanon could be actually directed towards Shannon or never occurred at all.

>>5780812
Shkanontrice is harmed by mirrors, because this dispels the illusion. But that's not the real reason. It's that everyone goes along with it, or is fooled by it. As long as everyone is one or the other, it works. It's not like the people constructing the illusion of Kinzo don't realize he's dead.

>>5780825
You can't be sure what a nasty trick really is, so stop pushing it.

EP1 twilight

>>5780839
If you continue to deny it then you will be disappointed. Because an answer isn't going to pop out of nowhere this late in the story.

>>5780839
It makes sense for the trick to be that. In the first place, the interview the Erika tripfag is so fond of is post episode 3, while the "trick" is post episode 5, where the situation has changed.

>>5780825
If you accept this, then guess what. THE ENTIRETY OF EPISODE 6 IS LESS TRUSTWORTHY AS THERE ISN'T EVEN A DETECTIVE IN IT!

>>5780852
Accept what? It's already been established as fact that Battler was the narrator in EP5 and that his narrative isn't reliable that EP.

>>5780827
>Shkanontrice is harmed by mirrors, because this dispels the illusion.

...Man, I'm retarded. I didn't piece together why the human Beato gets hurt by mirrors until you mentioned it here.

>>5780490

Are you people just handwaving this? If Erika was in the same room as everyone, she'd notice if Shannon or Kanon were absent, still. Otherwise it just makes no sense.

>>5780840
Gathering Shkanon hints is pretty pointless. The deniers will deny it, the believers will believe it. It's going to stay that way until it's confirmed or denied in the clearest way humanly possible.
Except Ryu-chan doesn't want to say anything clearly. Shkanon is true/Shkanon is false debates might go on even after Umineko is over

>>5780861
No shit, she is black haired and flat chested.(i.e. Kanon)

>>5780814
The people who have accepted it don't like it either, but do you have a better theory that doesn't contradict the red, ties in with the theme of the story and is adequately foreshadowed?

>>5780865
Erika cared a lot more about framing Natsuhi than she cared about finding the truth. She didn't care about inspecting the bodies, she knew Kinzo was dead but used him for her theory. She was too narrow-minded to care. During that whole scene Shannon and Kanon are behind her, she ignores them.

>>5780825
Doesn't change the fact that Erika never noticed the fact that she somehow never saw the two at the same time, ever. Even after the murders took place and everyone was moving as a group.

She might have overlooked it in Episode 5 since she didn't really care about the truth in that game, but in Episode 6 it was literally a matter of life and death for her.

>>5780827
Actually, only Beatrice ever showed any reaction to mirrors. Although she had Shannon break that one.

... which makes me wonder. Perhaps we've taken the game a little too far and overshot things a bit.

If 'Beatrice' is a flimsy half existence who doesn't even count as a person, why does she have to be Shkannon? She could exist inside just about anybody.

Do recall that her participation in the duel was somewhat questionable. It was originally just a duel between Kanon and Shannon, but Beato got pulled in as well. Maybe we've over thought things.

>>5780866
>The deniers will deny it, the believers will believe it.

Without love, it cannot be seen.

>>5780866
It won't, else it wouldn't be a love story since there'd be no confrontation between the lovers to be and it would also fail as a mystery since it never revealed what happened at the very end.

>>5780840
>>5780827
>As long as everyone is one or the other, it works. It's not like the people constructing the illusion of Kinzo don't realize he's dead.

inb4 acting

>>5780881
Beatrice was created by someone who split her soul, a girl who loved Battler but wasn't Jessica. Any better ideas? Also, she says:

"No one will be able to see your form.
However, I alone can see you.
And if you are loved by many people...
I'm sure that everyone will be able to see you someday."

Then pic related.

>>5780758
I presented a logical argument. You cannot forget about Shkanon by making logical arguments.

>>5780866
I imagine that even if it's stated in red that Kanon and Shannon are two different people with two bodies, people will continue this by saying 'bodies could mean anything'.

>>5780874
>The people who have accepted it don't like it either, but do you have a better theory that doesn't contradict the red, ties in with the theme of the story and is adequately foreshadowed?

'Adequately foreshadowed' is a subjective thing. Tell me again which mysteries that Shkanon is required for to be possible? Because I could present you a theory for every mystery in the game that doesn't utilize Shkanon, and that doesn't violate the red much less bend it to the degree Shkanon does.

>>5780847
I already know the answer more or less, so I wouldn't.

>>5780894

It just makes too much sense. There's no way Shkanon could get past Erika, right?

>>5780887
Kanon really grieves for the personality that is Shannon.

Until you solve EP6's logic error without Shkanon then it's essential. You can't just ignore it.

>>5780894
You're too concerned in "solving the mystery without Shkanon". A lot of people are obsessed with whether or not Shkanon is "required" to "solve" anything. However, what they're really talking about is all the closed room situations. They can't properly explain the story, especially episode 6's story, without it.

>>5780904
Unless Bernkastel purposely told Erika that she couldn't point it out, to give her a handicap

I wouldn't put it past Trollkastel

>>5780866

>>5780884
There is no love in Shkanontrice. It will only end with George killing someone or everyone because he is pissed that Battler stole his girl, or with Battler just blowing off Beatrice as a joke and her never truly getting her love across if Shannon wins. Not much on the Jessica side of things as we know it's just a red herring.

>>5780894
You're sidestepping my question to focus on the trivial details of the how'dunnits. Don't do that; answer me:

What is a better theory that doesn't contradict the red, goes along with the white, is foreshadowed in every game and is consistent across all games?

>>5780921
Actually, it's revealed later in episode 3 the skill really comes from Ronove, who himself is furniture. Ronove can do it because he's an imaginary persona of Genji who plays around with the imaginary persona of Beatrice. Kanon can do it because while Shannon is around, he's just as imaginary.

>>5780884
Except it doesn't require any love. All can be explained with mental illness and bribes, like you do now, which is far from lovely things.

>>5780928
Shannon doesn't love Battler any more; the whole point of creating "Beatrice" is to push her unanswered feelings onto her so that she can start anew.

>>5780936
So the features of imaginary friends are now project themselves on reality? Ronove can also make tea and cookies appear from the air and create magical barriers. Does it mean that Genji can do it too?

>>5780909
Resolution #1 - Erika confirms the locations of all characters before she seals the rooms in the guest house. She cannot seal both the windows and the doors simultaneously. If she seals the door to the cousin's room first, Kanon can escape through the window. If she seals the windows first, he can escape through the door. After this, he can rescue Battler. This does not violate the seals because Kanon exits the room before it's completely sealed.

As for him not existing in the guest room's red truth, you can resolve this in one of two ways;
A) Kanon dies in the closet. He either commits suicide, or he is killed non-instantly by Battler. He does not 'exist' in the guest room any more than 'Kinzo' does not exist on Rokkenjima.
B) The guest room Beatrice is stating he does not exist in does not refer to the 'guest room' Erika is in. It refers to another guest room in the mansion where he is not.

>>5780930
There's no point in answering your request for something subjective. No matter how logical or well thought out, no matter how much foreshadowing there might be, you can just go 'nuh uh' because it doesn't satisfy your definition of 'adequately'. I can prove that all of the mysteries are possible without Shkanon, that's enough.

I will present you with something probable if you request it, but I will not make any foolhardy attempts to please your personal desires beyond that.

>>5780954
Genji never actually does it though - appearing out of nowhere. Kanon is the only one who does, and he does it in more than one episode.

>>5780938
The phrase means that if you don't give something a chance, you'll never understand it as well as those that do. Your perception changes based on your attitude. If your perception is only negative, then not everything will be made clear.

>>5780954
Of course he can't. Likewise, it's impossible for a human to actually be that silent. That's why Shannon can't do it, she is making all the noise of Kanon and Shannon.

>>5780962
We never see Erika seal the windows. What if she sealed them before they even entered the rooms? Then she only needed to seal the doors.

>>5780964
Figure of speech.

>>5780971
That's an assumption and has no factual basis, and doesn't prove that my theory is not possible.

>>5780973
It receives too much emphasis to be a mere figure of speech.

>>5780965
Thank you jesus

So many misuse it.

>>5780971
She would have broken her own seal had she done it before, and she had no other chance because until then she was with the people in the room.

>>5780962

You're a true friend of justice. Defeating Shkanon and all that, you're a good reader.

>>5780965
I understand this theory perfectly, helps arguing in these threads. And I see how you can interpret certain things in a different ways to fit some theory.

>>5780890
>Beatrice was created by someone who split her soul, a girl who loved Battler but wasn't Jessica.

I'm a little dubious about that. We assume that since George overheard Battler saying that to Shannon, that he was the ONLY one who overheard. Or that this was the only time he said such a thing.

Granted, it does seem odd for Jessica to create an alter ego of her own personality just to imitate herself, but... well, pic related.

If 'Beatrice' is the name of the female heir to the family as I speculated earlier, then maybe Jessica created her as a result of the stress being piled upon her by Natsuhi.

I'm not going to contest Shkannon anymore at this time, since I'm replaying the games a little at a time and trying to compile a case for each theory. But I think the possibility that Shkannon and Beatrice are separate beings should still be considered.

Particularly due to the fact that there is no way in hell Sayo was the 'Beatrice' Battler met in Episode 2. But maybe that scene was a trick since Battler already surrendered....

>>5780978
Inferiority complex + figures of speech, which you don't even try to interpret different way.
Also
>1.28 MB

>>5780984
Why would she have broken her own seal? The whole situation with the seals and the two rooms in the first place was a retroactive re-defining of Erika's actions during the game, so she could have had Rudolf and the others organize people in rooms while she sealed the windows, then entered her own room through the door, left through her trick, then sealed both doors.

>>5780975
No it doesn't, but your theory does not really make much sense with the white of episode 6. You say you won't bother doing that because we would say it's inadequate anyway, but can you really come up with any explanation for it at all, whether it satisfies us or not?

>>5780993

Yeah, it was all 3rd person narration, almost all of it, I believe.

>>5780998
No, you don't try to interpret it another way. It's easy to wave your hand and says it's all a pretty metaphor that comes down to nothing while consuming nearly all the episode, but Ange noticed that there was a huge barrier existing for some reason between their loves, that this concept of 'furniture' was more than just that.

>>5780988
That's how Ryu plays, not doing that type of stuff is for the retards that just take stuff at face value when it's meant not to be. This is the reason the entire Shkanon thing in EP 6 screams red herring, Ryu won't give that type of thing away until right before Beatrice piece reveals herself.

>>5780999
It makes more sense to me than assuming magic light switch personalities is the trick. What do you want me to explain, exactly?

I'd also like to point out that the 'white' is apparently entirely pointless, like most of the game, according to the argument about it above and view points.

Let's not get into that again, though. If you want me to solve a mystery without Shkanon, that doesn't contradict red truth or detective viewpoints, I will do so. But for things other than that, let's respectfully agree to disagree until it's all set aside in later episodes.

>>5780993
what? shanon/shkanon and beatrice are different people.

6 lovers
shannon and george
jessica and kanon
beatrice and battler

shannon wins, kanon dies and beatrice is about to disappear
however she regains her personality after kanon dies

>>5781013
You're just scared of accepting something that seems obvious. You're not really being clever about it, but assuming there's some deeper truth you haven't discovered, and won't try to discover until it's told to you. That hardly classifies you to call other people who aren't stubbornly hoping for that retards.

>>5781013
Just like how Tsumihoroboshi was wrong about the parasites...

If Shkanon counts towards a head count, so should Shkanontrice.

>>5780962
>There's no point in answering your request for something subjective.

You can't claim to have solved the mystery if you can only answer the individual how'dunnits.

>No matter how logical or well thought out, no matter how much foreshadowing there might be, you can just go 'nuh uh' because it doesn't satisfy your definition of 'adequately'.

Read what I said again:

>Doesn't contradict the red, goes along with the white, is foreshadowed in every game and is consistent across all games.

Present a theory that does this.

>>5781009
You don't need to "interpret" it. You just have to read it literally to think of Shkannontrice. And that's not how metaphors work.

>(戦人の救出について)
その辺りが、ベアトリーチェの真相にかかわる大ヒントになっているのでは

ないでしょうか。

本当は救出方法が分かれば、「EP1」から「EP4」の謎は全部解けてもおかしく

ないんです。
特に、今回は、ヒントという名の答えをどんどん出していますので、今まで

の密室の謎は全て説明できるはずな んです。
(About Battler's escape)
This part will probably serve as a massive hint regarding the truth about Beatrice.

If you really understand how he was able to escape, it should be possible for you to solve all of the riddles from EP1 to EP4.
Especially after this last game, where we placed <<several hints that verged on answers>>, you should be able to explain the riddles of all the closed rooms up until now.

>>5781022
I'm fine with that. It's not exactly a huge challenge to come up with a theory that only fits the red through. This is also even assuming we will get any confirmation on this point when R07 always hints that he won't confirm.

>>5781042
I think it's interesting how he excludes EP5

>>5781026
I can't tell if you're arguing for me or against me.

Either way, if Beato is a half existence inside Jessica for example, what is it that she wants? To be acknowledged and loved by Battler, right?

Aaaaannnd, what is the biggest impediment to this? Shkannon. Even if Kanon loses and Shannon remains, Jessica would still be hung up on Kanon and maintain dominance. She might even try to search for him, or bring him back. If Kanon wins, Jessica remains firmly in control since she's gotten what she's after. So, the only way for a weak existence like Beatrice to gain control is to fully crush Jessica's hopes, which means removing both Shannon and Kanon from the equation.

Not saying this is definitely right by any means. But this is directed at those that looked at the dueling scene and said "there can be no other interpretation of this!" and stopped thinking.

..Couldn't the furniture also be considered pieces to their significant other? Like Shannon would be considered George's piece?

Thinking back to episode 3, George was able to 'revive' Shannon in a sense. Just curious if this could be incorporated to a personality's death.

I find it kinda funny that there's a guy calling himself Erika here who opposes ShKanon. Someone used the same name and did the opposite when episode 6 came out, but not on /jp/. Erika would never believe a bandwagon theory so this works better.

>>5781013
Hint: You detect red herrings based on the white, not the red.

Shakanontrice is unlikely to be a red herring because it fits in with themes of the main story and is foreshadowed early and in every episode; on the other hand, something like "the man from 19 years ago" is definitely a red herring because it's exclusive to Episode 5 and would serve only as a plot device (ie, satisfies the red but not the white).

Furthermore, I would remind you that Shakanontrice is a key to solving the mystery, not the mystery itself. There are still various questions that need answers: what the hell happened in Episode 4, who set the bomb, how many killers/factions are there, the bank accounts etc.

Used incorrectly, (for example, never leaving the level of the individual how'dunnits) it doesn't solve anything.

>>5781044
I wouldn't make any claims like 'trap X' or anything silly just to get past the red, but it's probably not too difficult given a little thought. Still, thank you for being understanding.

>>5781054
I think he only does so because there's only two tricks in Ep 5, and Battler solves one of them for us.

>>5781070
It doesn't work with the constant example of one man not being allowed to love more than one woman, and it doesn't make sense that Jessica would consume Shannon and Kanon's souls to love. Beatrice at the end of episode 1 who Maria said killed everyone and who appears before the cousins can't be Jessica either. Makes much more sense for that to be Kanon.

>>5780993
>>5781070

WHY SHANNON IS BEATRICE FOR THE MOST RETARDED.
Episode 6: We have the flashback of 6 years ago with "Beatrice" talking to Battler.
Battler talk to this "Beatrice" about his favorite kind of girl and joke around in english.

Different scene, George remember about 6+ years ago, how he was jealous of Battler and we see a scene of Battler and Shannon talking and laughing together.

Different scene, Battler talks about how he was shy as a kid and how he lied to the girl he liked saying he liked a different kind of girl.

Now episode 3: Battler states CLEARLY that Shannon was his first love.
Shannon also states CLEARLY that he used to joke around in english with her all the time and that he promised to come back for her on a white horse.

Episode 4: "Beatrice" talks to about how Battler used to talk in english and how his favorite kind of girls is blond and busty.

NOW I WONDER WHO THAT BEATRICE BATTLER TALKED TO IN EPISODE 6 COULD BE.

Important question: Are Shannon's breasts real or fake?

>>5781100
Have to be fake.

>>5781086
Maybe it was, at least in that Episode. But at the same time, Shannon was most certainly confirmed to be physically dead by Battler in Episode 2. The events in the final minutes of any of the games is somewhat questionable.

Anyway, Jessica wasn't the one that would be consuming the souls in my example, it would be Beatrice who is yet another 'incomplete soul'. Jessica, paired with Kanon, would have been among the losers and disappeared.

>>5781098
You post this not-proving-anything copypasta so much yet I still don't see the answer about this part:
>Different scene, Battler talks about how he was shy as a kid and how he lied to the girl he liked saying he liked a different kind of girl.
Where was that?

Answer to Umineko: Everyone is 'Beatrice'

>>5781103
Suddenly, the scene with Jessica hitting Battler for trying to touch Shannon's breasts isn't a joke anymore.

>>5781098
>>5781117
Ah, found it:
>"Heheh, sometimes they'll even go out with a different person. That's what my first love was like, ihihi."
Do you know what "going out" means? Because it's not lying about different kind of girl.

>>5781122

Oh shi--

>>5781029

Personalities count when they are dead, they don't when they are alive.

Why? Because even furnitures become full human when they die and go to the golden land, Beatrice repeated it enough.

Beatrice never dies so she never appears in a head count.

>>5781100
She's also bald, so she can change at least 3 different wigs quickly and convincingly.

>>5780962
Your solution violates Knox's 8th, specifically:

If she seals the door to the cousin's room first, Kanon can escape through the window. If she seals the windows first, he can escape through the door. After this, he can rescue Battler. This does not violate the seals because Kanon exits the room before it's completely sealed.

Nowhere is it mentioned how Erika actually conducted the sealing of the room.

>>5780962
Your solution violates Knox's 8th, specifically:

>If she seals the door to the cousin's room first, Kanon can escape through the window. If she seals the windows first, he can escape through the door. After this, he can rescue Battler. This does not violate the seals because Kanon exits the room before it's completely sealed.

Nowhere - in either the red or the white - is it mentioned how Erika actually conducted the sealing of the room.

>>5781124
In which episode did you find this quote?

>>5781117
>not-proving-anything copypasta

Do you have a stronger case for anyone else being Beatrice?

Oh wait...if Shannon and Kanon are using disguises, why don't they make an effort to avoid Battler like piece-Beatrice does?

>>5781184
Piece Beatrice wants to avoid Battler because she wants to leave him last.

>>5781169
It doesn't violate anything. It's mentioned quite plainly that she 'seals the rooms', and that's all that matters. No one's sure the context in which the Knox Decalogue can be used, except Dlanor, so let's not go there.

>>5781316
>It doesn't violate anything. It's mentioned quite plainly that she 'seals the rooms', and that's all that matters.

But that's all it mentions--that she seals the rooms and that's it. The text doesn't give any details on the manner in that she conducted the sealings, which means that proposing a solution based on the assumption that she could not have sealed both the doors and the windows without allowing anyone to escape is attempting to solve the mystery with clues that are not presented--a clear violation of Knox's 8th.


>No one's sure the context in which the Knox Decalogue can be used, except Dlanor, so let's not go there.

You probably missed it, given that you seem to ignore any text that isn't red, but it's been stated clearly that the Knox Decalogue exists as a tool for the power of reasoning.

In the case of Knox's 8th, it means that if the solution for the closed room revolved around some detail of how the two rooms being sealed provided a window of opportunity for Kanon to escape, Ryuukishi would have made some mention of the process of sealing instead of just having Dlanor show up and confirm that the rooms were sealed.

>>5781386
It's also said that it's not clear whether or not the Decalogue even applies entirely to all games. The sixth game didn't have a detective. Furthermore, it's also said that the Decalogue is up to interpretation. So maybe you're the one who's not reading anything?

I swear, are you that delusional? Using your logic, the entire point of a closed room mystery, to figure out the trick, is not allowed because of Knox's 8th - we are only told these rooms exist as they do, not how they were constructed, so any reasoning behind figuring them out violates Knox's 8th.

I know you don't have any way to concretely deny my theory, but spare me your nonsense.

>>5781450
Battler used Knox to solve Umineko.

>>5781450
While I'm not saying his argument denies your theory, it's probably possible to explain other closed rooms and mysteries based on what has actually been presented.

For instance, the episode 3 closed room that involves the boiler room, which is shown in episode 1 to have a door that has no lock. If I just said "The boiler room has another door that can't be locked" but we didn't have this episode 1 evidence, who would take me seriously?

These threads always seem so sad.

It's quite apparent that even the people who argue the most against ShKanontrice realize that it's the truth.
But they have such a belief in R07 and Umineko that they want to run away from the truth till the last second, to like Umineko till the resolution.
Arguing with these people is stupid, they won't change their position till the end, even if they know it will hurt when the truth will be revealed.
Truly Mind of Steel.

>>5781511
>But they have such a belief in R07 and Umineko that they want to run away from the truth till the last second, to like Umineko till the resolution.
Without love, that belief cannot be seen.

>>5781511

It's not sad. You don't get it.

>>5781517
Personally I just see no reason to believe in him.
The solutions of Higurashi were very straightforward and stupid.
The solution of Ookami, which he planned, was retarded
Why the fuck would Umineko be different?

>>5781450
>It's also said that it's not clear whether or not the Decalogue even applies entirely to all games. The sixth game didn't have a detective. Furthermore, it's also said that the Decalogue is up to interpretation. So maybe you're the one who's not reading anything?

You have a very poor understanding of the story if you think that the Knox Decalogue doesn't apply to all of it.

>Using your logic, the entire point of a closed room mystery, to figure out the trick

To figure out the trick with the clues presented. If we are just told "okay, the room is sealed," it's the author's way of indicating to us that the sealing was conducted was not important to solving the closed room trick.

>we are only told these rooms exist as they do, not how they were constructed

There's a big difference between "here's a closed room; here are some clues for you to figure out how to break it" and "here's a closed room." The sealing of the two rooms in Episode 6 was the latter--we got absolutely no details on how Erika sealed them or any clues that would either confirm or deny that Kanon slipped out of the room before she sealed it; therefore, it's impossible for the time lag you're proposing to be the solution, because it would be a resolution to that the readers could not arrive on their own with certainty - which is contrary to the whole genre of mystery.

>>5781531
I have two personalities, one that lost all hope for R07 and accepts the retarded solution that is Shkanontrice, and one that wants to believe that there's something good left in Umineko.

We'll see which one dies before long.

>>5781511

>>5781450
Are you even trying to solve the mystery or are you only concerned with theorizing about the closed rooms?

>>5781556

>>5781531
The miracle cannot occur unless everyone believes.

>>5781540
Yeah, okay, we're obviously not going to agree so you go ahead and think whatever you want about my understanding of the story or the Decalogue. We're not going to get anywhere, since our interpretation differs. I have no intention of contradicting my belief, and I'm sure you don't either.

If you have something more solid than 'Knox's 8th', let me know. It's not like my theory is even a stretch of the imagination or physical possibility; you're just trying to assume it isn't possible because there wasn't a 10 page passage dedicated to the sealing. Which is absolutely ridiculous.

You are no different than the person claiming Erika might've sealed the windows first in that you're both arguing an assumption. The difference is that you're assuming the author's intentions for the scene and the Decalogue's interpretation, trying to say your view is fact when it's not even close.

>>5781531
what was the big mystery in ookami?

>>5781595
And you're assuming how she sealed them too when it wasn't said so it's no different.

>>5781620
I can't decide if I want this to happen or not.

>>5781620
And that's actually true for Beato, because *six years ago for me, no person called Beatrice existed*.

>>5781605

You don't have to MAKE an assumption, it's fucking obvious how she sealed the rooms. The whole point is that she does it with duct-tape, so unless she's a bloody magician she couldn't have done the door and window at the same time.

>>5781654
She could have sealed the windows first.

>>5781628
How about this?

>>5781660

in which case they left through the door while she did that

>>5781660
She could have, but did she?.. Who knows.

>>5781660
whilst doing so time is passing by on the game board and she isnt the detective
anyone could have sneeked out during that time and her point of view isnt trustworthy in ep6

>>5781672
Yes, this is much better.

Erika got the tape late at night in the guesthouse before any crimes had occurred. She talks to Dlanor about it, and she takes some solace in that since the tape isn't sticky enough, she won't have to crawl all over the place like a spider.

When she retroactively changes her moves when she is granted enough sufficiently adhesive tape for three rooms, she would have sealed the windows at that moment. So long before anyone came into the rooms, she would have done it.

>>5781703

You don't know that, and so the sealing order is a valid theory until it's denied in red.

Have you even read umineko?

>>5781723
>Have you even read umineko?
what

>>5781703
I have a hard time believing she would waste 2/3rds of her duct tape on the outside of rooms which are not even guaranteed to be used during the game. She also never announced it as a retroactive move, despite announcing everything else she did.

But like I said, I can't deny the possibility. Much in the way that no one can deny the possibility that she didn't seal the windows beforehand.

>>5781595
I don't "believe" anything, in the sense that I'm trying to start from an objective (for example, denying Shkanontrice) and justify it.

I'm just trying to find the truth of the situation.

>If you have something more solid than 'Knox's 8th', let me know.

Doesn't get more solid than that.

>It's not like my theory is even a stretch of the imagination or physical possibility

But it's impossible to confirm or verify, which makes it effectively worthless as a solution.

>you're just trying to assume it isn't possible because there wasn't a 10 page passage dedicated to the sealing

Far from there being ten pages, it got a sentence.

One.

>You are no different than the person claiming Erika might've sealed the windows first in that you're both arguing an assumption.

Your solution assumes that Erika has no way of being able to seal both the doors and the windows without Kanon escaping from the other, when there's no evidence that would either confirm or deny this fact.

For example, just as you can say "Kanon left by the door while she was sealing the window" in response to "They sealed the windows first," I can say "Erika has enough fucking common sense to make sure that look in the room and make sure that no one ran out while she was sealing the door/window," to which Ryuukishi would say "you're all retarded for not remembering Knox's 8th."

>The difference is that you're assuming the author's intentions for the scene and the Decalogue's interpretation, trying to say your view is fact when it's not even close.

I'm not assuming anything. I'm stating that your solution has no clues either to confirm or deny it and that if you bothered to read the white text, you would know that Ryuukishi - through Dlanor - says outright how you're supposed to apply Knox's 8th.

>>5781726
She probably had confidence that she could have these two rooms be used. You're right that it doesn't confirm anything, but you would think Erika would be smarter than that.

>>5781729
>"Erika has enough fucking common sense to look in the room and make sure that no one ran out while she was sealing the door/window,"

Fixed.

>>5781730
You would think that Erika would be smart and observant enough to notice that two people are actually one, and would use this knowledge against Beatrice in a fight for her life.

Many Shkanon theorists do not believe this is the case.

>>5781729
>"Erika has enough fucking common sense to look in the room and make sure that no one ran out while she was sealing the door/window,"

It's not about common sense. It's about her retaining her ability to investigate crime scenes without the detective proclamation. If they saw her peeking in the window or the door, she would instantly lose the trick that let her get out of the rooms to begin with.

Didn't you read the white text about how she was splitting them up in two rooms in order to trick them?..

>>5781730

>>5781726
Your solution doesn't add up when you take into account that Ryuukishi said the solution to most of the closed rooms for episodes 1-4 can be solved using the solution for the one in episode 6.

>>5781749
It doesn't so much. A lot of the closed rooms are about missing premise.

The missing premise here is how Erika could seal both sides at once.
Another instance of a missing premise is episode 2 where the chapel was never said to be locked.

>>5781734
Ah, it would be <perfect>. If she did, it will instantly deny shkannon. Well, then you'll probably switch to unreliable narration argument

>>5781745
This is something that should be more obvious to her. I think she misses Shannon and Kanon because she can be too busy focusing on certain points, but when it comes to her own sealing of the rooms, she shouldn't mess up. Erika even mentions the possibility that if Battler doesn't confirm their locations, she can just claim they snuck out while she wasn't looking. Yet once he confirms their locations, she doesn't worry about it anymore.

>>5781755
The unreliable narration argument is a strong one. You make it sound stupid, but it has weight. Battler never sees Shannon and Kanon together in episodes 1-4, but in episode 5 where he loses his reliable perspective, he does. Battler also never sees both their corpses, for in episode 1, he Shannon's corpse is around the corner and Kanon is alive when he's found, in episode 2, Kanon disappears entirely but Battler sees Shannon's corpse very clearly, in episode 4, Kanon's corpse is the only one missing at all, even though he is confirmed to be dead. Episode 3 is the questionable one, but it all happens off-screen, the adults find Shannon's first and Kanon's last, and Battler only sees Shannon's corpse alone later. It's all very suspicious.

>Read Episode 5
>Its mentioned that once the detective of the whole story figures out the truth its when everyone should put their wits together
>Episode 6
>Everyone is still yelling at each other like rabid monkeys

Enjoy your rage

Explain this with Shkanon.

>>5781759
It's a blind spot in her logic and timing. She gets over confident, and is obviously in a rush to win via logic error. That's how I see it anyway. Also, >>5780490 in regards to her missing Kanon and Shannon. She literally can't, when they're both right in front of her and she's talking to them. I don't want to repeat the arguments surrounding that picture, but I thought I would show it to you since I touched on it earlier.

>>5781767
I will agree that the disappearing corpse is very suspicious, but I had a different theory for why it happens. Umineko itself is a huge pot of suspiciousness. Makes waiting for the next episode frustrating at times.

>>5781797
Kanon enters the room in between the time after Shannon was confirmed in the other room.

>>5781805
You're willfully ignoring what the story's trying to tell you.

>>5781805
I can't be convinced with those arguments alone, there were some good counter-points to it.
And I say the same thing to >>5781797
While Erika is present for the events, the narrator that depicts them is not reliable. It's also using the word "probably" which leaves some doubt. The narrator is not entirely sure what Battler would do. It's true that Ryuukishi claimed that Battler simply being present was enough back in episode 3, but he may have changed his viewpoint on it when he introduced Erika and gave her detective authority, but not first-person observationThat could be why he considers it a "dirty trick".

>>5781825
Naturally. If I can't even trust the narrator, why would I listen to the story he's trying to tell?

R07 said that the way to solve the last closed room of episode 6 is the key to all mysteries of episode 1-4.

Now tell me how the whole Erika is a retard who couldn't see that Kanon went outside is the key to resolve Umineko.

What's your view on the final red in ep6, ERIKA?

>>5781848
He didn't say that. He said that if you could solve Battler's escape, you should be able to solve all of Ep 1 - 4's mysteries. Not that it was the answer to all the mysteries prior.

It's about level of difficulty, not that the solution is the same for all of them.

>>5781860
No, it's about it being a "key", not about the level of difficulty.
And episode 6 has no level of difficulty since it's a "confession" if you want to talk about it.

>>5781870

is it a bit to far fetched to say the reason kanon wasn't in the closet or the rest of the room was because someone else let him out after he'd let battler out?

>>5781870

and honestly shkanontrice doesn't actually solve the closed rooms themselves you know.

>>5781894
It does.

>>5781836
Why would Battler say to Beatrice that people would complain about it not being a mystery because of this trick? It's not a bad trick, it's acceptable in mystery.

>>5781894
Actually it does, most of them anyways.
Others are just solved by practical tricks.

>>5779979
That's some pretty shitty writing right there.

>>5781853
Undecided. Battler and Beato say some odd things before firing, and so does Erika. I think it was mainly to do with Erika's TIPS status after the game, but I haven't thought about it too deeply. It's kind of amusing when red truth becomes a sort of mystery itself.

Maybe Ep 7 will make it clear what ties them together. I'm well aware of the several different ways you can interpret it, depending on your theory of choice, but I'm just going to leave it alone for now.

>>5780962
#the complete of both the cousins' room and the next room over has been GUARANTEED.
>GUARANTEED.
>GUARANTEED.

I am pretty sure your argument violate the red here.
We are talking about ep6 here, where Erika can actually rewind time and murdered people/sealed door/repaired door without the GM knowing.
I am pretty sure they guarantee a perfect closed room.

>>5782234
The complete sealing, but they can't say that Kanon didn't escape while it was being sealed. Even if it's unlikely, it's a possibility.

Erika seals doors. Kanon goes through window. Erika seals windows. Sealing is guaranteed, complete closed room, nobody can go in and out without breaking the seals. But Kanon was already out before that happened.

>>5782252
# [Request: 'Hideyoshi, George, Shannon, Kumasawa, and Nanjo are in the next room over!'] Acknowledged.
# [It has already been shown that Kinzo no longer exists, so please remove him from the word 'everyone'.] I acknowledge that everyone else is in the cousins' room.
# [By the seals on the doors and windows,] the complete sealing of both the cousins' room and the next room over has been GUARANTEED.

I am not sure how you interpret this but I am certain TIME was stop during all these talking while they are magically sealed by Dlanor underlings just like how time was stop for Battler while he was stucked in eternal closed room limbo.

>>5782274
Woah woah woah, magically sealed? Let's keep the explanation for each gameboard in the bounds of mystery. Magic can only be a beautification of human efforts. Dlanor and such magically sealing everything represented Erika herself doing it all physically. After all, Erika didn't have just a few minutes to herself. She had hours, she says that herself. She seals everything in this time, checks all the locks in the guesthouse, and even kills all the other people faking their deaths.

>>5782234

that is fucking stupid, how did erika not know Kanon doesn't exist?

spare body duh

>>5782293
>>5782294
You sealed the room from the inside.
1) Saw the 5people
2) Sealed window
3) Go out and then sealed the door

Either Kanon was never in there in the first place or Erika sealed the window and then not realizing Kanon went out and then she sealed door.
Or alternatively the sealing is done by the GM helpers (referees to prevent logic error cheating).

I wonder which one is more ridiculous. Oh nevermind.We are talking about R07 anyway, we all know how retarded he is for coming out with bullshit.

>>5782417
We are talking about Battler.His game was shitty so there is nothing deep in it to begin with

>>5782431
Nah I already knew R07 is shit after ep6.
I am just trying to point out the irony of the denialfags.
They cant accept Erika overlooking shannon/kanon as 2 separate people but they can accept Erika sealing a room with a person missing while she was in the room.

This thread only confirms that no one knows what's really going on. You can't even get two people who purport theory A to agree on a different theory B.

>>5780326
But that red only applies to the one room.

>>5781028
Hifumi's parasites were right.

But everything else, apparently anything that Takano pulled was WROOOOOOOOOONG

>>5782417
>You sealed the room from the inside.

Where does it say that? That she didn't seal it from the outside like in last game?

Hifumi, Rena and Takano believed that parasites were intelligent and controlled humans behaviors.

It was just a derp disease.

>>5783007
Splendid logic sir.
You mean she went outside to walk around the mansion, sealed the window then back into the mansion sealing the door without taking a step into the room?
You are absolutely right.

Why do people consider only Erika view?

Do you really think the other wouldn't say anything to Kanon switching rooms, chaing clothes, make up and wing and disappearing into the other room?

Come on...

People are putting too much real world view into it, it's evident you don't understand how Umineko works.

It was just a game between Erika and Battler, that's why she was allowed a retroactive move and could kill people without caring a bit.
When she says "I sealed the room" you have to assume she did it instantly because it's just a game.

>>5782454
Did you even read the story? She didn't even enter the cousins' room, the splitting was done without her. Then she went to next room over, then left it and began to confirm locations without entering cousins' room at all.
> "......Sorry, I'm going to go the cousins' room for a second. There's one little thing I just need to check on with the servants over there."
>"Allow me to confirm the location of all characters present. Repeat it!"

>>5783168
Tell that to the denialfags saying how Erika sealed the room herself.

Kanon and Shannon were poisoned before the family conference start, so they were forced to fight for the antidote (the golden bronc)

>>5784618
hahaha

>>5784618

Mother of god.....