/jp/ - Otaku Culture

Also, Birth of a New Witch Instrumental=fucking awesome

Sorry man, its not Umineko time now. Try european nightime.

You now realize that Shannon is Kanon.

Alive.

Best BGM.

damn it let me guess, someone already ruined ep. 7?

>>5739354
So is there any way to tell which one is the chick? I think it's Furfur because I don't think most gay guys would be so bitchy all the time, but I've never met one so I don't really know.

>>5739397
it matters not

>>5739397
/jp/ had a discussion about this long ago, and we decided that Fufur was the trap.

>>5739221
>Anyone want to talk theories or such?

/jp/ only follows Shkanontrice. Go elsewhere if you want other theories.

>>5739245
Why does Battler make me blush?

>>5739397
They can swap. Its the idealization of the cat box thing. They're the opposite gender to each other, but since you cant know which is which they are both. Until someone grabs crotches in Umineko, they are both.

>>5739462
So, Schmion but one of them has a different gender.

>>5739385
>>5739245
Whats the thing with black suit Batora?

>>5739462
So, Shmion but one of them has a different gender.

>>5739479

He was dressed as such on one of the tarot cards that shipped with the DVDs. Then, fanart.

>>5739479
Tarot card

I'm always up for talking about theories. Though, unless you pose a specific mystery at me, I can only mediate others'.

>>5739610
Train theory and pony theory.

Make them work.

>>5739610
Op here, I just want to hear everyone's opinions on what happened, not necessarily what they've heard other people say happened

it seems obvious that Kanon and Shannon are the same person, but how does beato fit in? is she part of that whole too? and many other things as well that they have still have to touch on, though i'm sure /jp has already probably talked them to death

>>5739662
What's the train theory?

>>5739218

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>>5739669
I actually have my suspicions about them being the same person... I don't think it's necessarily true, even if Battler's game seems to be heavily implying it. I do think that Beato is either one or both of them, however. Shannon's been my pick for Beato since before Episode 5.

>>5739662
I can't really do that, I'm afraid. My area of expertise is in solving the mysteries/theories for how they could have occurred... that is to say, murders, closed rooms, tricks, things of that nature.

>>5739610
We have two pairs of lovers. In each, one of the partners strongly believes that he/she is a subhuman. And only one pair can succeed.
Explain it without DID, metaphors and magic-love, i.e. with the real world reason.

It's all magic, I don't need theories. Without love it cannot be seen. Have an image of my beloved waifu.

>>5739896
I also point you to >>5739744 since I'm more interested in those things rather than trying to figure out something as immaterial and potentially false as magic scenes. Not that I think there's anything wrong with thinking about those, but I just don't like being the one to do it.

Damnit, Anon, I'm a detective, not a marriage counselor!

> If Battler had been told to repeat 'Krauss, Rudolf, Jessica, Genji, Gohda, and Kanon are in the cousins' room', he would probably have responded with the red without thinking too much about it.

How does shkannon explain this? It has already been confirmed in red that Shannon is in other room.

>>5739896
the reason they think they're subhuman is because of some kind of task they have to accomplish. This task must be carried out without fail. Thus, if one of the two ever leaves the island or stops being furniture, the other is bound to dedicate him/herself to the task exclusively, thus losing everything else.

>>5739971
But as a detective you must find a motives.

You can't say Kanon and Shannon are samefag without first figuring out how Jessica and George can love that person.

There has been no hints or clues to point that one or both are gay, so one of them would have to be faking that they're in love for whatever reason.

>>5739998
For me to give you a motive, there must be a crime.

> "<Good>. I'll continue. 'Hideyoshi, George, Shannon, Kumasawa, and Nanjo are in the next room over!'"
> "Acknowledged."
> <...>
> If Battler had been told to repeat 'Krauss, Rudolf, Jessica, Genji, Gohda, and Kanon are in the cousins' room', he would probably have responded with the red without thinking too much about it.

Shkannon side, please explain how the same person is at the same time is in two rooms.

>>5739991
I have my theory for why they think they're subhumans. The question is, why can't they both leave the island or stop being furniture? It says that they can't do that at the same time.

Okay, this was the second-time that Rudolf wants to say something.

What was his secret?

Plus, all Shkanon fags would also have to explain the fact that Shannon was confirmed to be in the sealed next room over at the same time Kanon was confirmed to have entered Battler's guest room.

Checkmate. Shkanon is false.

>>5739669
>but how does beato fit in? is she part of that whole too?

No.

>>5740000
>>5740021
How about you stop trying to deny (thus creating shitstorm) and think of alternatives.

>>5740058
I will stop denying the moment you admit your theory is false.

>>5740036
All the hints point to Battler being Kyrie's son. No one's confirmed that her 'stillborn' son wasn't later resuscitated, or even that Asumu's and Kyrie's kids were switched right after they gave birth, which kind of works since they gave birth the same day. The latter of which is probably the truth.

>>5740058
If you can't explain >>5740040 then you lose.

>>5739218

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>>5740036
It's actually the third.

>>5740040
I hate to be the one to defend a theory I don't think is true, but.
'It is true that the next room over was sealed, but at the time of the logic error, only the doors were checked to see whether the seals were preserved.'

The window was never checked for the next room over, so you could argue that Shannon broke those seals and climbed out.

>>5740036
His secret is that he is really Jack Bauer.

>>5740097
And what about >>5740021

>>5740110
I'm sure Battler could've repeated it easily. I'm not going to make any disjointed arguments in an attempt to repel that.

>>5740097
No point in repeating the same arguments over and over to newfriends and people who fail to think a little. If only to look a bit smart yourself, oh well.

>>5740058

Kanon is Kinzo and Shannon is Beatrice, the love duel represents these identities, etc.

Check.

>>5740097
But you're an idiot if you don't realize that the opposite could also be argued. i.e. Cat box crap.

Anyway, my theory is that Kanon escaped in the time she was busy putting on the seals on the room, which is AFTER she asked whether everyone was in the rooms. Remember that even though we were shown the meta quick show, that the piece would have had to do it manually. If this is not the case, then episode 6 isn't even a real board and everything that happened in it is magical bullshit, therefore nothing in it would matter anyway.

>>5740131
No, please, I beg you. I want to believe and I thought it over and over. Shannon and Kannon can't be the same person because of >>5740021. No amount of love can change it. If you have come counterargument, please say it. Don't hide behind "I'm too grand to explain to you".

Best scenes are anything with Erika in them.

>>5740140
Yes, I also thought about that I even have a good foreshadowing, but the problem is >>5739896
>>5740030
Can you explain it?

If Battler and Beato won the argument to Erica, Why did she disappear and didn't continue the game?

>>5740147
Err, except that 'The cousins' room is guaranteed to be a perfect closed room until the end.' and 'IMPOSSIBLE. The seals on the windows were also INTACT. Of course, this is at the time of the logic ERROR.' in regards to the cousin's room. And if you're not talking about the seals with your 'opposite couldn't be argued', then I have no idea what you're talking about.

And yes, that's a nice theory... that I posted about a week ago here. The exact theory, in fact, I used to explain how Kanon escaped from the closed room of the cousin's room and rescued Battler without Shkanon. Of course, you don't explain how he escaped from the closed room of Battler's guest room, so I'll go ahead and throw in my answer for that; that Kanon kills himself in the closet for some reason.

>>5740156
What in the hell are you going on about? I don't believe Shkanon either. I'm not hiding behind any sort of 'I'm too good to argue this'; I literally have no argument to give you because I believe that Shkanon doesn't exist just like you. What is wrong with you?

>>5740140
>>5740189

I can explain it.

http://archive.easymodo.net/cgi-board.pl/jp/thread/5726120#p5728160 Read this post and the other one wiith it.

>>5740199
Misquote, sorry, Was talking to post below you.

>>5740193

Simple. "I'm the 18th person." "Nope, there's 17." It's like dropping the 'roof' on her. She got crushed by the limit-roof, metaphorically. Hm, kind of a hamfisted explanation, she was basically implying she's 1 over the 'limit but that limit dropped, so, she did as well.

>>5740213
Oh, no worries. I thought the entire world was going crazy for a second!

>>5740203
Write something coherent next time.

>>5740203
>For some reason, the island requires that a Kinzo and a Beatrice both exist. Don't ask why. I don't know.
That's the weak spot. It's just like magic, and I want a real world explanation to exist at the same time.
But maybe that's the point? Maybe that's why "it's a nasty trick, people without love cannot see" at all? Shkannon is good here, magic-love explanation: "she split her soul to create different person, that's why they both don't have a full soul"; real world explanation: "lolcrazy DID meido", and even though it sounds stupid, it 'makes sense'. Is it okay to have a theory, that can't explain one of the points without 'love'? Maybe it is, but if we could find a 'real' explanation, it'd be much more solid.

I also have thoughts about the whole Beatrice/Kinzo deal, maybe I'll post them later.

>>5740216
A lot of people who push Shkanon like to ignore the fact that Erika was a culprit, when 'Erika' cannot be the criminal. It's not a it's against the rules thing, it's a cannot happen thing. The game board does have rules that supersede the witches power, and that is one of them. The only solution to this is that Erika doesn't exist and that the 'Erika' we saw running around was a fake face for one of the other people already on the island. With this fact stated, we have a deficit on people if Shkanon is true, but we cannot have new people added so that means Shkanon is wrong.

They never awnsered my mail ;_;

It was copy-pasta, I didn't write one bit of it. Also, my interpetation of needing a Kinzo and Beatrice is that it's often said Rokkenjima has a Day Ruler(Kinzo) and a Night Ruler(the witch, Beatrice.) So it's like a yin-yang thing, can't have the back of something without a front, etc.

>>5740271
While this sounds interesting, they are all sitting at the dinner table, and erika definitely is not played by someone from the family.

>>5740271
Why she can't be the culprit? Battler used the argument that he was the culprit in ep5, even though it was confirmed in red, that he was the detective in previous games (and the detective is not the culprit). If the rule 'the same culprit for all games' was true, Dlanor wouldn't hesitate to use it against him.

>>5740297
Kinda like how we saw Shannon and Kanon together when Erika was A DETECTIVE AT THE TIME UNLIKE NOW. You're logic is shit, come back when you have a new brain.

>>5740293
Again, irrational, that looks like magic interpretation.

>>5740203

I vote the name of this theory should be the Dual Ruler theory.

>>5740309

Well, Kinzo rules the mansion of Rokkenjima, and Beatrice's domain is the rest; the forest... hm. I have nothing better to add.

>>5740305
He never killed anyone, Erika did. There's a big difference there, he was the mastermind behind the game, not the culprit that is actually killing people. Though at times I think sometimes they just all kill eachother out of desperation, there is most definitely someone who is using the game to actually kill people. Who is the real reveal that episode 7 will give us.

>>5740271
That's wbat I hate about most alternate theories like these, they were purely made to destroy ShKanon without looking at the game themselves.
Look at the theory, does it even care about everything that happened in episode 6?
No, it just make lots of forced correlations that don't make sense just for SHKANON IS DENIED THIS WAY NO DISCUSSION ALLOWED.
Fucking stupid.

>>5740309
Well, to be far the duel was purely meta, and most of the scenes that they discuss only one being aloud to love border heavily onto the meta.

>>5740312
It's not a theory, it's some little kid's nonsense.

>>5740322
> reveal that episode 7 will give us.
keep hoping for it. The whole thing about Featherine was basically a foreshadowing of "I'll leave this shit wide open, enjoy becoming one of those who "forge" different "truths" I mentioned, everyone!"

>>5740333

Did you even read it?

i'm confus
how did you guys come up with this shikanon stuff in the first place?

>>5740331
>herp derp de derp derpderp
Keep on whining, this has nothing to do with disproving Shkanon as it does figuring out what is going on overall. You're also a dumbass for thinking Erika killing people not being an important clue about what is going on. Erika killing is an impossibility because pieces can't be forced by the meta beings to do things they wouldn't do on their own. Even bigger rule it breaks is the rule that outsiders are not allowed to influence the board. It just breaks so many damn rules that you CANNOT ignore it.

>>5740361
some people noticed they didn't ever appear together while in front of people in the first episodes

>>5740361
Shitty theory that nobody cared about until Ryu decided to troll us with on episode 6.

>>5740375
Yeah it's not like it was the most popular theory from episode 2 to 4 till R07 decided to troll with episode 5.
Fucking delusional morons everywhere.

Hey Shkanonfriends, can you explain me one thing?

These reds here:
- [Request: 'Hideyoshi, George, Shannon, Kumasawa, and Nanjo are in the next room over!'] Acknowledged.
- [It has already been shown that Kinzo no longer exists, so please remove him from the word 'everyone'.] I acknowledge that everyone else is in the cousins' room.
- At the time the next room over was sealed, Hideyoshi, George, Kumasawa, Shannon, and Nanjo were in it. And, the number of people in the next room over was five. No one existed there except for those to whom those five names referred! All people can only use their own names!!

Some points.

- One of the premises for Shkanon to work is that the are counted by the red as different people, and that they can die (without the need for the body and/or personalities to die).
- Whether they add to the head count or not is unknown.

Now, in the first two Reds we are told that Shannon is in the cousin's room and everyone else is in the next room over. So, here comes my questions:

- First question: In the third Red we're told that no one but the people mentioned were in that room. If Shannon and Kanon inhabit the same body but are counted as different people, shouldn't Kanon have been counted there?
- Second question: If Shannon and Kanon are counted as different people, and if at the moment the cousin's room was sealed only Hideyoshi, George, Kumasawa, Shannon, and Nanjo were in it, wouldn't Kanon have to be part of everyone else that is in the other room?

These are my questions my friends. I hope you can help me.

>>5740332
That's true. There are metaphors, subject to different interpretation. I don't think that we just can ignore it all entirely, though. At least the demons give hints, Ryu confirmed it.
While I don't like it, Shkannon can explain it metaphorically, through magic-love pov and real pov at the same time. I can explain it without Shkannon metaphorically, through magic-love pov, but it's difficult to think of a real pov explanation.

Well, there is a lot of evience for Shannontrice in episode 1, like her being pretty well versed at magic stuff.

>>5740382
>implying it was ever the most popular theory pre-episode 6
Nope, it was just the 'what if' theory put together because of a coincidence.

This is not that relevant, but does anyone know how the two Eiserne Jungfrau assistants spoke in the original? The whole "let it be known" "and "Allow me to speak" things

Er maybe that she's the one to tell the legend of the witch for the first time.

>>5740388
"Everyone else" is just "Everyone else", it doesn't have to include Kanon.
Kanon just isn't part of the "everyone else" because he is already in Shannon, I don't see what is so hard to understand.

>>5740401
Or because they actually thought about solving Umineko.

>>5740402
I heard they speak in very formal, exalted manner. Especially Cornelia, because she's new and it matches with her ideals of inquisitor.

>>5740382
Shkanon was only slightly popular during EP2. It was never that popular, since unlike now, no one was rolling with the idea that personalities could die.

The most popular theory, at least in /a/ and /jp/ was that there was a mastermind and different killers, Kanon being one of the main suspects.

>>5740402

Let it be known = 知りたまえ
Allow me to speak = 謹啓、謹んで申し上げます

Also have a screenshot of Shannon talking about Beatrice. Somehow everything that comes out of her mouth about her is postive, quite in comparison to Jessica.

>>5740415
Yes, but if we're going by the idea that each personality is counted as a person, which is one of the main bases for Shkanon(trice) to work with the Red, then when we're told that no one but Shannon and Co. are in that room, and that everyone else is in the other room, the argument that each personality counts its own person (i.e. as far as the Red works) is defeated.

People seem to forget that episode 6 is not only, well, 6 episodes in and that i's a confession.
It's not about making new mysteries, it's about solving them.
It's normal that some things now point to one particular theory.

>>5740455
Red text is factual, you can't lie with it.
Personality can die in red but that doesn't mean they can roam as they please, it doesn't mean they have to count in the everyone else.
If the red text "knows" that Shannon and Kanon are the same person then it will de facto know that Kanon can't be counted in the everyone else because he is already in Shannon.

It's a loophole that is a little cheap but even Battler and Beato stated it in the end.

>>5740413
Episode 6 reveals that Kanon was the one opening and setting stuff in disarray because Kinzo taught him to.

>>5740453
Kanon distrusts/hates Beatrice, only with episode 6 moetrice did Kanon ever show sympathy and help her. Kanon seems to be the only one who looks at Beatrice as a peer other than the older servants. Everyone else looks at her like she's a, well, witch.

>>5740490
Except that they stated it in a way to say that Erika doesn't exist, and you're just wishfully thinking it's talking about Shkanon. Ever hear of a thing called a red herring?

>>5740455
I don't like that theory, but goddamn think a little or lurk at least. Only one personality is active at the same time in shkannon body, therefore Kanon didn't exist at all at that time. And when in comes to confirming the number of people on the island, it counts all, just the same it counts all people that were killed.

>>5740490
I understand your point, but wouldn't that be terribly paradoxical? That'd mean that Shannon and Kanon are treated as the same person, whilst being treated as different people at the same time.

I'd understood if we were talking about bodies, because in that case we would say indeed they are the same. However, in the moment we talk about personalities being different people, and since the Red is working with people and not bodies, then in this particular situation Shkanon wouldn't hold, I think.

>>5740504
>Except that they stated it in a way to say that Erika doesn't exist, and you're just wishfully thinking it's talking about Shkanon

Wishful thinking is the one thing I think of when I read your post.
You must be the most butthurt poster over ShKanon here.

I will tell you why Erika doesn't exist is nonsense.
Because Umineko is a GAME and she was a PLAYER in it, a player that actually makes move.
Her not existing in episode 5 and 6 as a theory is so fucking retarded it blows my mind especially considering all the red texts that define her existence.

You know why she was erased? Because she LOST, Bern told her textually that it would be her fate if she was to lose.
Meta-characters are erased when they lose, it even nearly happened to Battler twice.
Stop being so fucking delusional please.

>>5740521
Shannon and Kanon alternate.
If you look at the red text, it never talk about them at the same time when they are alive.
Basically Shannon was active, Kanon was sleeping.

>>5740505
>Only one personality is active at the same time in shkannon body, therefore Kanon didn't exist at all at that time.

I know, my point for that is that if the Red is working with people and not bodies, then Kanon should be part of the "everyone else".

>>5740528
>Basically Shannon was active, Kanon was sleeping.

Hmm... I cannot understand that. I mean, if Shannon and Kanon inhabit the same body, even if one of them is being dominant, it doesn't mean the other doesn't exist, I think.

>>5740522
>actually believes the meta-players matter more than the pieces and the rules
Ppffttt!!! That is so fucking retarded, it would make the ENTIRE point of Umineko nothing. The game is more fucking real than the player, that is the difference between it and games you think about. You're the same type of delusional fag that Ryukishi was insulting the entirety of episode 6.

>>5740573
Both the gameboard and the meta-world are fictions so it's not about one being more real than the other considering than they are both not real at all, what is so hard to understand?

Actually the meta-world probably exist in some way, though most likely in a completly different shape, the gameboards are just games, fanfictions though.
It's a point that have been made again and again, the fact that you still think the games are real prove that you can't understand shit of what is happening.

>>5740388
This is actually a pretty good point to make.
'At the time the next room over was sealed, Hideyoshi, George, Kumasawa, Shannon, and Nanjo were in it. And, the number of people in the next room over was five. No one existed there except for those to whom those five names referred! All people can only use their own names!!' This cuts a clean piece out of the Shkanon argument, though I suppose you can still 'justify' it as a legitimate theory by using a different argument.

But let's take a step back to Episode 3. There are some red truths here that I would like to see how Shkanon supporters rationalize, because it deals with physical location rather than concepts.

This is referring to the linked closed rooms of the first twilight.

'All five master keys were discovered, each in the pocket of one of the servants!'
'The individual keys were found inside envelopes alongside the corpses!'
'In short, all keys related to the linked closed rooms were locked inside the linked closed rooms!!'

There were six closed rooms; the parlor, the chapel, the boiler room, the guest room, the honored guest room, and the waiting room. The keys were locked inside of these closed rooms, six different locations, with all five master keys found in the pocket of one of the servants each. The way this red truth is phrased says it like so; 'All five master keys were found, one in the pockets of each servant'.

How does this mystery work if Shannon and Kanon are the same person?.. How are none of the red truths violated?

>>5740522
>Her not existing in episode 5 and 6 as a theory is so fucking retarded it blows my mind especially considering all the red texts that define her existence.
# Furudo Erika only increases it by one person.

Then mentions of Erika does this and that. Nothing that defines that Erika has a body of her own or anything. The Erika ball still works, and the final red in EP6 could be seen as B&B exposing it.

>>5740593
>ignored all the crap about alternate realities
Explain to me how Ange exists if she was an extension of the third game board that no longer exists. Sorry, but you are so retarded I don't know what to say.

>>5740614
Read the thread please.
Kanon was already in Shannon so he couldn't be in the everyone else, it's that simple.

For the red text of episode 3 it's also pretty simple.
The personalities of Shannon/Kanon died but the personality of Beatrice was still alive.
She moved from Shannon's room to the chapel when the adults were busy searching in the mansion and completed the closed rooms.

If it's about the word "corpse", in japanese it reads "body of the dead", the definition of instant death given by Beatrice also helps ShKanon.

>>5740621
You still believe in alternate realities?
Holy fuck you must be one of a kind.

>>5740621
Ange doesn't come from the third gameboard, just that Eva survived in the real event, that's all.

I can't believe the whole event with Toya Hachijo has to ties with supernatural, the whole thing is suspicions, Ange stating how the flow of time was weird, and how she didn't remember meeting her before.

>>5740621
>alternate realities
Why do you believe in magic

>>5740699

Because the meta-world is what makes Umineko fun and different.
Also, i don't see why alternate realities are magic, they don't affect the game board at all.

>>5740699

I am magic.

Gee, who might this boy be, considering Shannon's only social activity happens in the mansion.

>>5740778
Kanon.

>>5740778

Kinzo

>>5740784
Or some other male servant who's been in the mansion over the years.

>>5740778
Or maybe the one who tried to woo her 6 years ago.
Yeah really, I wonder who.

>>5740826
Was Jessica les-ing it out already by then?

>>5740667
Sorry, but if you want to argue that, you'll need to count 'Beatrice' as a person. No more than 17 people exist. All dead people are included in the 'X people' count, including personalities apparently. Beatrice is a personality? Then the count should reach 18. It does not.

If you're going to try to claim that Beatrice isn't a 'person' and therefore doesn't count in this count somehow... how about you explain who killed Kanon/Shannon, who were killed by another person? If Beatrice doesn't count as a person, she can't kill them. Shannon and Kanon cannot kill each other at the same time. One personality has to be dominant after all; one is always sleeping, right? They can't both be awake at the same time and kill each other simultaneously, right? Or is the argument now 'They can exist together at the same time provided it's in a situation that pokes a hole in this theory'?

Oh, but that point doesn't matter at all in the slightest. Why?

Because, it's impossible for Kanon or Shannon or Beatrice to have entered the chapel 'completing' the closed rooms because the chapel key was found in the boiler room. The door was locked. How did they enter the chapel and still have it meet Beatrice's closed room definition? Master keys cannot open the chapel. So it won't work to say he opened and locked it with a master key.

Oh, and finally.

'Furthermore, all of the doors and windows in the 6 rooms are normal.'
'No device exists which can lock them without a key, such as an auto-lock.'

So you can't even argue that Shkanontrice locked the chapel door from the inside without the chapel key which he did not have.

>>5740826
But she didn't see Battler after that until 6 years later.

>>5740843
B0mbtrice could've killed kanon and shannon

>>5740843
>'Beatrice' as a person
She doesn't exist.
You know how Beatrice existence works? Kill everyone to make the whole world know SHE DID IT so that she come into the existence.

>>5740843
The chapel door was never locked.
How are people still not getting how all the closed room after 6episodes?
Start speculating on motives and real mastermind, these are the only missing links to solve seacat.

>>5740959
'In short, all keys related to the linked closed rooms were locked inside the linked closed rooms!!'

Try again.

>>5740844
-Battler is his stupid sexy self hitting on every girl
-Shannon wants to have the popular male for herself, this is a parallel with George who was chivalrous to girls, etc
-Shannon tries to get Battler's attention with messed up make-up, he misunderstands (or it was possibly intentional) she's Beatrice. They make a promise.
????
6 years pass
Battler forgets the promise
Shannon for confirmed for huge hypocrite who stays with George only because she settled for the next thing since Battler disappeard

>>5740843
>If you're going to try to claim that Beatrice isn't a 'person' and therefore doesn't count in this count somehow... how about you explain who killed Kanon/Shannon, who were killed by another person? If Beatrice doesn't count as a person, she can't kill them.

This Red further reinforces this:
- Absolutely no factors other than humans participate in this game board

>>5740843
Shannon go to the chapel room and dress like Kanon, play dead.
Rosa and/or Kyrie who were waiting for her close the door of the chapel using the key.
They then go to the boiler, put the letter with the key and go out.
How do they go out? Easy, the boiler room has 2 doors, only one is confirmed to be closed.

>>5740968
Close linked room is ep3.
That episode closed room has nothing to do with the chapel.

>>5740843

I want to make love to you.

>>5740843
Beatrice isn't a person, she's a witch.

It's never stated that they were killed by another 'person', just that the 'murderer' was in the same room.
Magical DID. Or instead of arguing that point further, I can just admit that they were indeed killed.

How do you know that the chapel was locked? Can you prove it? Oh, you can't. When Virgilia "reconstructed" it, she didn't even say that it was locked. And about 'locked rooms' in red - boiler room was called that, but we know frome ep1 that it's actually not locked at all.

I hate shkannon, but damn you're bringing hundred times countered points. Though it seems to work on newfriends.

Definition of instant death, as used in Umineko, given by Beatrice herself.
即死とはつまり、攻撃を受けて即座に行動不能になったという意味だ

Basically means sustaining an attack and being immediately unable to act in any ways in the process.

It's basically tailored for DID.

>>5741031

>>5740843
This is the same shit they pulled for ep6.

>>5741031
>Beatrice isn't a person, she's a witch.

I'm sorry, but this is complete rubbish, I'm actually surprised people even use this as a argument.

The reason why we're even considering personalities as people is due to Ange's and Featherine's conversation. Therefore, if Beatrice is a personality, then she's a person.

>>5741083
Shannon and Kanon can die but they are never counted as separate in a pure head count, they are never stated to be together or in different places in red when alive as well
The difference with Beatrice is simply that Beatrice never died, till the end anyways, therefore her name/personality didn't have to be used.

Beatrice as we know her in the meta world is not Beatrice in the real world

RL Bearice could very well be Jesica or Shkanon or someone else

>>5741099
>Shannon and Kanon can die but they are never counted as separate in a pure head count

Oh really?

>6 people: Kinzo, Genji, Shannon, Kanon, Gohda, and Kumasawa are dead!
>6 people

What's that?

>>5740021
EP6 Gameboard is not real, is not something really happening, it is just hypothethical. (And in fact also a dead person, Erika, is allowed to appear and the GM is allowed to edit the game setup removing all the duct tape, someghing impossible unless his piece would go and search through the whole island for it.)
If he would have named in red the people of the next room he would have lost, probably. But since he did not and it has not denied in red, it is possible in that GB for Shannon and Kanon to be the same person. ShKanon is the solution to Logic Error, but that does not mean it has to be true in EP1-4 GB.

>>5741116
I did write "when alive" though.

>>5741126
So, they count as 2 when they are dead, but as 1 when they are alive?

Seriously, man...

>>5741116
>>5741126
He got a point. Since only 1 of them can be alive/exist at any one time. This fact is proven in Ep6 also.
Also I got a feeling Kinzo death is somehow tied to them. I just read ep3 red text and Kinzo is stated to have died instantly. You wouldnt die instantly from an illness and it is pretty sure some kind of sexual tension is going on between Kinzo and his delusional Beatrice in ep4.

>>5741031
That contradicts 'Absolutely no factors other than humans participate in this game board'. Witches included. They were 'murdered', and that of course means they were 'killed by another human' because 'they did not commit suicide'.

'In short, all keys related to the linked closed rooms were locked inside the linked closed rooms!!'
'The individual keys were found inside envelopes alongside the corpses!'

Are you trying to suggest that 'they were locked inside the linked closed rooms'='one or more of the doors were not locked'?

>>5741060
I'm unsure what you're saying here. Could you explain it with a little more detail?

>>5740843
I hate contradicting someone who is trying to disprove Shkanon but the boiler room has two doors one of which has no lock (the door to the courtyard shown in EP1).

As to why the adults didn't mention this I don't know.

>>5741142
No, what I mean is that "dead" is a permanent state.
But they are never counted as 2 when alive because they switch, Shannon is in control then Kanon is asleep or vice versa.

>>5741292
I knew about the second door, but are you certain it has no lock? If so, where is this mentioned? Not being aggressive or anything here, I just want to confirm it myself if it's in-game.

ａS_ＰＲＥＶIｏｕＳｌＹ ｍｅntｉｏNed,_ｔｈeＳE ｍＥｓSSaｇEＳ Ｗilｌ CＯnＴINＵe UnｔＩL_ｙoＵ_PErｍaｎeNＴｌＹ_sTOP_aＴＴaCKＩＮg ａnＤ FuｃkＩｎｇ_ｗＩＴH_ｗｗw.ａＮONMＯＯＯｏtａｌＫ.sE_(ＲＥｍＯVＥ TｈＥ_ＣoＷ sOＵｎd), RＥMＯVＥ_alＬ IllEgaL_ｃｌｏｎEｓ_Ｏf_It AnD ｌieＳ ＡBＯｕt iＴ aｎｄ_DＯnaTE_aＴ_ｌＥAＳT_Ａ_mＩLLｉON ＵＳＤ To ｓＹsＯＰ AS ｃoｍpEＮsａTｉoN fｏｒ_ｔＨE ｍａSｓｉvＥ_ＤamＡge_ｙｏＵ_ｒｅtＡRdS ｈaｖE_ｃａＵsＥD.
qv rnds rr lzkplbp mzuvg zdyc

It's where you realize that all the closed rooms are easy, they just seem complicated because R07 "forget" to talk about some tiny details that change everything.

>>5741318
I admit that is not really stated precisely but you would assume the boiler room door is the same since it opens into the courtyard.

It's not 100% certain but it's still a possibility

So I've been thinking about episode 6 and Battler's escape.

But there's things I noticed that I want to share with you.

Firstly, when Erika says this in red:

At that time, I immediately closed the door, reset the chain, and sealed this room.

Bernkastel adds that "Erika repaired the chain lock."

Lamda adds that "Erika used that duct tape to join the two cut ends of the chain together, 'sealing' them. In other words, the chain was repaired by the duct tape, and this room once again became a closed room locked from the inside."

All in red.

Now I'm thinking, sure, Erika could have repaired the lock. But she wouldn't be able to reset it without herself being able to leave the room.

She checks up on Battler at the start to see if he's dead, the chain is cut, she repairs it, but this is a closed room so even if she does repair it then she's trapping herself in it if she resets it.

So I'm just thinking that it wouldn't be possible for her to reset the chain without locking herself in.

>>5741370
Hmm, it's a possibility. But something seems odd about there being a lock on the door to the boiler room at all if there weren't one on the opposite door; that is to say, the boiler room can only be accessed from inside the mansion anyway.

Why would you make a lock on the door inside the mansion but not for the one in the courtyard? It seems more logical to me that you should be able to lock both doors.

>>5741236
Right. Witch didn't kill them.
Boiler room is not closed room, definition of cr violated, therefore there can be other loopholes in red. For example 'closed room' in this case is that which everyone thinks is the closed room, see ep1 red for such example.

>>5741424
Right, so?
*The game ended while I was inside the guest room, so I did not undo the chain lock that I had previously set. So, it can't be that he escaped behind my back after I left the room.*

>>5741236
Edited.

>>5741459

She repaired the chain and reset it when she initially checked on Battler. Right after the murders happened and much before she returned to Battler's room to have the logic error with Battler.

I'm saying, It's impossible for her to have set that chain back then without being able to escape herself. That door could not have even been locked in the time she checked on the room to the time she came back.

>>5741432
reasoning like that I even find strange that someone would put a lock in a door to a boiler room.
But still the mansion has a lock on the main entrance even if it's not really needed since the Ushiromiya family are the only one that ever come to the island so I wouldn't be strange if they would have put a (useless, in my opinion) lock in both the boiler room doors.

But still I can't ignore the feeling that this closed room is a fraud.

This or fake deaths made real by the culprit like in EP6.

>>5741483
Greatest plot ever, Ryukishi07 is truly a genius among mystery writers.

>>5741507
Protip: This is the same shit they pulled in episode6.

This picture here is spammed to death when Beato found her enlightenment.

Fuck, I promised myself not to post in this stupid arguments for any side. Your retardation is contagious and I can't think of anything else productive now.

>>5741523
>>5741507
Oh god you are a fucking genius! I'd really have to be stupid if I don't believe this!

Thanks, you really made me understand umineko!

>>5741548
>>5741557

Soooomebody's maaaad.

>>5741523
>>5741507
Oh god you are a fucking genius! I'd really have to be stupid to not believe this!

Thanks, you really made me understand umineko!

>>5741523
Protip2:
"All of them had wounds resembling gunshot wounds which became fatal!" != "All of them had gunshot wounds which became fatal!"

Know the differences, it can save your life.

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CkINｇ_WiＴＨ_WＷＷ.AＮＯnMＯOｏoｔＡLＫ.ｓe (remOＶｅ tHＥ_ＣＯw_souｎＤ),_rＥmoVE_ALL_ＩlｌＥgaＬ_ｃLOＮＥs Oｆ IＴ_ＡND_ＬｉeS ＡｂoUT_ＩT_ａＮd doｎaｔE_ａt_LeaＳT_A ＭIｌliOｎ_Usｄ_To Sｙsoｐ Aｓ_cＯｍpeNsATiＯn_ｆＯＲ_ｔｈE ＭAＳＳiVｅ_dａMＡGe_ｙＯｕ retaRds_HＡＶＥ_ｃaｕＳEｄ.
r g wfwq jz hczfi ir k mh lw c p ry

>>5741587
Get rid of "resembling gunshot wounds." What do you have left? "All of them had wounds... which became fatal!"

The tool for killing them doesn't matter (at least for the purposes of this conversation), it's the fact that they had a clearly mortal wound, which Battler was able to see on Shannon personally.

>>5741607
You can read it "All of them had wounds resembling <gunshot wounds which became fatal>"
Same for the japanese version.
It's called WORDPLAY, red text works that way.

>>5741490
No. All her moves were retroactive and done at the same time.
She initially found Battler, the chain was cut. Battler gave her retroactive duct tape. She went to the guesthouse. She sealed 2 rooms. She found the letter from Battler. She retroactively sealed his room, so he shouldn't be able to place this letter now, if the seals are intact. She went to the mansion. Battler decided to keep the seals intact and not rewrite the story again. She entered the room. From now on all moves of both sides were made at the same time and applied retroactively to the story. The murders were also done retroactively.

>>5741483
Beatrice isn't a person. I am willing to make the concession that personalities can be treated as a person, but the fact is there are only 17 of those, and Beatrice is not one of them. She could not have killed Shannon and 'no factors other than humans' blah blah blah.

>>5741607
I'm pretty sure that's not wordplay. I'm pretty sure that's just omitting parts of the red truth which doesn't make any sense!

>>5741619
Sorry, my quote about omitting things was directed at >>5741645 not >>5741607 .

>>5739217

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>>5741645
Beatrice killed Battler in ep4.
Do you want to logic error Ep4?
Beatrice is being played by a human.
I don't see how this contradict the red text.

>>5741655
... God damnit. >>5741619 not >>5741607

>>5741662
Beatrice is a personification of the rules, goddamn.

>>5741645
>I'm pretty sure that's just omitting parts of the red truth which doesn't make any sense!
No, it works perfectly like that. It could well be "they had wounds that looked like fatal gunshots" in a slightly more confusing way.

Otherwise it means that Kinzo was shot to death. Which could maybe work too though.

>>5741675
>that looked like fatal gunshot wounds
derp

>>5741662
Beatrice rigs the bomb. Or maybe Beatrice poisoned all of the food and drinks before she died. It's not like she says she's going to kill him point blank or anything.

>>5741682
>'no factors other than humans'
You were saying?
Stop contradicting yourself.

>>5741691
Now you're going to forbid guns and other weapons.

>>5741662
> Ushiromiya Battler. I will now...kill you.

> And right now, there is no one other than you on this island. The only one alive on this island is you. Nothing outside the island can interfere.

>You are all alone on this island. And of course, I am not you. Yet I am here, now, and will kill you.

>Who am I?

It's not Beatrice talking, it's her heart (the ghost that appears after she exposes it to be exact).

Her heart is not a person since Battler is alone and she isn't him.

It's probably the bomb or something that can kill everyone at 24:00 of October 5

>>5741716
samefag. I forgot to add that it could also be the culprit who activated the bomb.

>>5741691
Except that red truth refers to the third game? And that 'no other factors other than humans etc' simply means that 'everything meaningful that happens on the game board is a result of one of the 17 people's actions'. If one of the 17 arms the bomb, it doesn't contradict anything. Same if they poison the ham and wine.

The word 'meaningful', of course, is just there to exclude trivial events like the wind blowing or the rain falling which don't affect the mystery.

>>5741737
So?
Personality A killing off Personality B in her mind count as something not human now?
It is not magic.

>>5741842
... What are you talking about. I am perfectly willing to accept that Shannon 'killing' her 'Kanon persona' or vice versa can fit with the '17 people' and 'human factor' truths. I am not willing to accept that a third personality (Beatrice) not included in the head count can.

What are you having such a terribly hard time understanding about this?

>>5741909
>in the head count can
Where was this included?
There is only 16people on the Island.

>>5741950
>There is only 16people on the Island.
So personalities suddenly don't count at all anymore?

>>5741909
Also, to be fair, B&B never said "there are EXACTLY 17 people, no more, no less". Take a group of, I dunno, 200 people: there are 17 people among them and you could state so in red.

>>5741969
They were never counted in the first place.
The 18th person that Erika referred to herself might include Kinzo or known human by everyone on the island kanon/shannon. It depends on how you want to interpret her statement.
That is how the red text works, as long as it fulfilled certain scenario and you wont get yourself stuck in a logic error you can use it.

>>5741969

Of course not, wasn't that the whole idea behind ShKannon... to bring the person count down by one?

>>5741969
personality = person
person / persons =/= human / people
so obviously personalities dont add anything to the count of people on the island

inb4 there's no more than 1 person in this island

If you've ever watched a film called Identity, you know what I mean.

>My face when people don't realize there can exist multiple truths and solutions to everything in this story.

>>5742003
'6 people: Kinzo, Genji, Shannon, Kanon, Gohda, and Kumasawa are dead!'

So they aren't counted as people except when they are?

>>5742030
Personalities can die. However, when they are alive, only one can be dominant. Thus, they count as one person.

Well, or that's the explanation.

At this point I no longer care.

>>5741987
>The 18th person that Erika referred to herself might include Kinzo or known human by everyone on the island kanon/shannon. It depends on how you want to interpret her statement.
I took it as it referring to herself. Her entire statement has absolutely nothing to do with the game (Hi I'm Erika, please welcome me), and her existence is subsequently denied with "even if we welcome you, you are already dead".

She was already hit, she had already lost her game, yet she wasn't denied yet. The guns supposedly immediately deny anyone who's shot. Why would she then be denied with "Shkanon is true"?

>>5742029
That's bullshit.
With a mystery as long as Umineko, only a fucking GREAT writer could write several consistent truths. And the key word here is consistent.
Ryukishi is very far from this level.

"Know that it is forbidden for blue truth to be used if based on the argument that the window seals of the next room over were torn at the time of the logic error."

"At the time the next room over was sealed, Hideyoshi, George, Kumasawa, Shannon, and Nanjo were in it.
And, the number of people in the next room over was five.
No one existed there except for those to whom those five names referred! All people can only use their own names!!"

So is ep7 out yet? what do we know about it so far?

>>5742149
No. Bern is the GM.

>>5742121
The Kanon personality was turned off, duh...

>>5742149
Comiket is next month.

>>5742121
Made for people like you.

>>5742205
I don't get it, why would Shannon enter the room as Kanon, and then suddenly decide she wants to be Shannon again?

>>5742227
Love duel.
Going out by sacrificing himself.
Insert corny lines about how great he is by paying back his debt and etc.

>>5742227
Maybe that room is where she usually changes.

>>5742249

This is before anyone even mentions Shannon.

Nothing definitive, but food for thought...

>>5742249
You have to built something a little more believable. That can be used as a reason in that situation BUT why would ShKanon change every single time in just a few seconds? For example when both of them are introduced in episode 1, Kanon appeared and Battler introduced himself. After that they found Shannon... If ShKanon it true why would he change in just few seconds? Plz no lame explanation like "he´s crazy. done. Im fabulous!".

>>5742291
Shannon wasn't there. Hideyoshi was lying.

>>5742245
Magic shenanigans. Me not believe.

>>5742315
Kanon suspiciously pushing the cart.
Kanon suspiciously try to avoid Battler and not talk to him
Battler never seeing them together.

I don't know man, it is retarded but there is no definite proof and hard evidence against it.

What about Rosa acting suspicious in episode 1. Something is definitely up there. I have two screenshots taken before her death that testify to it.

>>5742316
This is before anyone mentions Shannon. Battler notices five corpses, and then comments about how he can't count them all on one hand. Why? Because apparently, he notices a sixth corpse.

Sorry if that point wasn't being made clear enough. It's nothing definitive one way or the other, but I thought it was interesting enough to share after taking a second glance.

Or maybe he only has four fingers on each hand.

>>5742348
Second pic.

>>5742350
I'm pretty sure that was Kinzo's corpse. Who else could it be?

>>5742356
Hmm, Rudolf behaved strange in episode 1 before dying... Anyone remember Rudolf telling Kyrie and Battler that maybe he's going to die?

>>5742315
It didn't happen in a "few seconds".
In episode 1, Kanon had more than enough time to change clothes and go meet the cousins as Shannon.

>>5742367

Of course, I mean he did that again in later episodes. There is definitely something strange going on that alerts the siblings... or at least Rosa and Rudolf.

>>5742367

That's Rudolf being dramatic. His plan is to tell Kyrie and Battler the truth behind his birth during the family conference.

Note how he expresses regret he "never got to tell them" when he outlives his family.

>>5742387
But how he knew he was going to die in episode 1?

>>5742348
>>5742356
Yes, she's very suspicous this episode, confirming Genji and Shannon's alibis for the second twilight, she even says she spoke with Kinzo himself.

People lying about Kanon = Shannon isn't as retarded as it seems. They are the same people lying about a mysterious guest X called Beato living in one of the guest room in Ep2.

>>5742356
It could be... Shannon's? I'm pretty sure everyone would notice if that were Kinzo's corpse, Natsuhi especially.

>>5742393
Rosa biggest red flagged is from ep2 though.

>>5742403
Are you talking about this?

So, /jp/

I'm thinking of buying the 1-4 DVD Case from AmiAmi, and I'm curious how much the shipping cost is from EPS.

Does any of you have any experience with this?

>>5742392
He thought Battler and/or Kyrie was going to kill him once he told them what he had to say. Not literally, of course.

He obviously didn't know he was going to be killed for real.

>>5742393
These particular screenshots are from episode 1 where Rosa dies in the first twilight. So she isn't just suspicious in ep2.

>>5742403
How could it be Shannons if Kanon is still alive and standing right beside her? Oh well, disregarding that, the red text stating that the identities of the UNIDENTIFIED corpses are garantueed is what makes me suspicious about this. Also why did Hideyoshi make sure George wouldn't look at the corpse? Something is off there, our detective Battler never really saw it either. And at this point in time the only spare body we'd have was Kinzo.

Hideyoshi and Eva noticed this and saw it as their chance to get back at Natsuhi.

>>5742403
>"EVEN" Dr Nanjo gets it

The "even" puts me off. He's a fucking Doctor, why would he be seen as "stupid"?

>>5742435
Impossible. The way he told them was very, well, dramatic. How could I say this... He called both of them to tell them not to feel bad and warn them that "someone" was going to kill him that night. If he didn't tell them about that secret about that night then there was no way to joke about being killed by Battler or Kyrie. He seriously thought (and he thought right) that he was going to be killed

>>5742438
>And at this point in time the only spare body we'd have was Kinzo. Hideyoshi and Eva noticed this and saw it as their chance to get back at Natsuhi.
Oh great, a good, plausible motive.

Of course, if it's Kinzo's body there, it means that the entire episode is easily solved without resorting to Shkanon, as Shannon is free to move as she pleases.

>>5742496
That can't be Shannon body since Kanon was there when they found the 6 of them in the garden shed.

The more interesting question would be, is Eva/Hideyoshi playing dead or genuinely dead?

>>5742517
>That can't be Shannon body since Kanon was there
What I meant was drop the Shkanon for a second and assume that they both have bodies of their own.

>>5742496

Episode one definitely has a solution with or without ShKannon. I mean it is pretty obvious that Kanon faked his death, the stake was discovered lying next to his body and when they discovered him he was obviously still alive. The only indication that he died is given by Doctor Nanjo who is known to be a notorious liar. Also Jessica was with them, too, but it's pretty obvious that she's working together with Shannon/Kanon/Shkannon...

>>5742458
That's just like, your opinion, man. Rudolf is the type to hole up with a shotgun if he thought he was going to truly die.

But here's my theory - He was going to tell Battler and Kyrie about them being each other's relative, true, but he was ALSO going to reveal that he was Jessica's father.

I mean, think about it, would anyone give a fuck about a matter between him, Battler, and Kyrie? Absolutely not. Him revealing that he is the father of the heir apparent, on the other hand, would create a shitstorm.

Also an intressting screenshot from episode 1. Food for thought.

>>5742581

Jessica's lineage is definetly a delicate matter. But there are just too many possibilities... e.g. Kinzo and Beatrice from 20 years ago.

>>5742563
The other thing weird with EP1 is Kanon whining to Kumasawa and Genji about Shannon being dead, without realizing anyone else was listening, so I don't think Kanon could have been anticipating him. Battler passed the room completely by accident. You'd think that if anyone knew about the whole DID deal, it would be the other servants, and those two especially.

>>5742597

Do we get exact dates for when Beatrice is in Kuwadorian, and when Rosa kills a child?

If the child could be Kinzo and that Beatrice's, it would explain why the child's death drove Kinzo mad, and having one of the children be secretly Kinzo's would add plenty of motive and inheritance stuff.

>>5742614

'In 1967, in a hidden mansion on Rokkenjima, Beatrice-sama existed as a human'

19 years later, question is how old was ms. rosarocks when she had the kid if she did

>>5742614
Well, Rosa didn't kill Beatrice, really. That was an accident. But we have a similar tale by Natsuhi which occurred at a similar time, in which she says she DID kill a servant and a baby.

And, of course we have the Kuwadorian deliveries stopping at around 18 years ago...

Y'know, with the whole Shkanon thing and all the other deceptions going on, I think Jessica might have it pretty rough in episode 7.

>>5742458
This reminded me about the prank theory, hmm.

>>5742606

Remember that Kanon refered to Genji as "father" and Kumasawa as "mother" in episode 6. On a related note, there was a line about "father's sin" in the duel between Shannon and Kanon that I really haven't been able to make any sense of...

>>5742614

We only know that Beatrice died 20 years ago and that child died 19 years ago. But it definitely wasn't totally newborn the moment it was handed to Natsuhi so maybe that might just work out... but that's just a crazy theory I've been pursueing for a while based mostely on the fact that it says Kinzo went mad after that child died.

>>5742614
>>5742633
>>5742645

sorry I meant Natsuhi there, not Rosa.

>>5742633

Crap, that is 19 years ago. Damnit I got it wrong by a year there, haha... but that only makes that theory more plausible. But it would have to mean that Beatrice was pregnant 20 years ago, haha.

>>5742645
>Y'know, with the whole Shkanon thing and all the other deceptions going on, I think Jessica might have it pretty rough in episode 7.
Nonsense, she's in good hands.

>>5742650

Is it exactly twenty/nineteen years ago, or are those just approximations?

Rosa recalling something from"about twenty years ago" could easily fit with natsuhi's more accurate 19.

Also, how trustworthy is Rosa's story? I think the only thing said in red is "She is dead". 'Beatrice' could look different, be a different age etc. One theory I like is that Kuwadorian Beatrice is Kumasawa, and the red text is true because she was killed in the first sacrifice.

Of course, that would only work if the Kinzo and beatrice flashback conversation was vague enough for that to be Kumasawa, since that conversation's confirmed in red text.

I feel that they are just using the "19years old" thing to black mailed Natsuhi.

>>5742684

That sounds way too cheap to be true. Also like someone pointed out, Beato confirmed that 19 years ago a human called Beatrice definitely existed... so yes, it was 19 years ago.

I just had the thought that maybe... the 'servant' that Natsuhi pushed off the cliff... was Beatrice? I mean they both died falling. And after that incident Kinzo went mad. But for that we have to dout both Rosa's and Natsuhi's story to some degree.

>>5742684
I think Rosa's story is trustworthy. It makes more sense for the boat to stop delivering supplies to Kuwadorian because 'Beatrice' died rather than because Natsuhi pushed a baby and servant off a cliff.

I'm not sure about Kumasawa being Beatrice though, considering that Virgilia was shown interacting with Beatrice in Kuwadorian. Kumasawa probably taught her about 'magic' though.

>>5742709
Well, they both have reasons to be doubted. Natsuhi because she's delusional and her emotional state was a wreck, Rosa because she's a troll and lying is what she does.

But there's a grain of truth in the stories most likely. I am of the opinion that the child from 19 years ago =/= the second Battler, but perhaps we could argue that the child from 19 years ago IS the second Battler, and that's why Jessica has asthma, y'know, from the whole cliff diving adventure.

As for Rosa, well, I know the woman named Beatrice is dead, but I've always felt like Rosa is MUCH closer to Beatrice than she lets on. There's something up with her connection, that's for sure...

>>5742714

Was that actually stated to be Kuwadorian? I've been assuming Kumasawa is Virgilia (and possibly the original living beatrice, kumasawa's name is clearly fake), and that flashback is her teaching the character who becomes Beatrice later on (jessica, shannon or whoever)

>>5742737
>kumasawa's name is clearly fake
Clearly? How come?

>>5742749
Because of the visit to her family in ep4, obviously!

...oh, wait...

we really ought to make a timeline, from when the mansion was built, to the time rosarocks died, baby died, battler left the family, children were born etc.

>>5742728

While Rosa is obviously faking a lot during the conversation she gives the flashback, it's worth noting that she thinks the Beatrice Maria recognised is the Beatrice she saw die.

Never forget that Maria has had the same person pretend to be Beatrice to her every time she goes to the island.

>>5742749

Her name is written in katakana

>>5742458

It was a warning to not take the "game" seriously.

If you're confused, i'm a supporter of the "Joke murder mystery" theroy. Wherein the first twilight is a plan enacted by the servants on kinzo's behalf to get the family to work together to solve the epitath. However some parties use this to enact actual murders. Either that, or murder is commited on who the "survivors" think is the murderer only to find out it was only a joke. I think although it's a loose theory it's kinda fun, and would explain why batteler forgives beatoriche when he discovers the truth.

>>5742776
Oh wow, I never noticed.

>>5742772
Rosa was lying, remember how she saw Kinzo later?

>>5742737
Kumasawa knew about Kuwadorian at least, and the magic she taught Beatrice was just to get out of trouble. (make the vase appear to be repaired just so one of the maids gets blamed when it actually falls apart)

Then again, that scene couldn't have taken place in Kuwadorian, because only a handful of people knew it existed, so I doubt he'd have random maids all over that place.

That would mean that Beatrice wasn't trapped in Kuwadorian at all, and was someone who lived in the main house or at least stayed there often. Yet Rosa didn't recognise Beatrice when she found her at Kuwadorian. Perhaps she was just someone she knew dressed up, much like the way Maria was tricked when she was given the umbrella?

>>5742780
It has too many loopholes, though. Take Jessica's first locked room for example. Shkanontrice had to have been the one to do that, and we KNOW that Jessica died there.

Well we know the following things:

- Beatrice from 1967 fell of a cliff and died
- Natsuhi pushed someone holding a baby from a cliff in 1967
- After the aforementioned incident Kinzo started taking up black magic
- The second Battler could be the baby from 19 years ago or Asumu's baby from 18 (!) years ago, also Jessica is stated to be 18

My conclusion from this whole mess is as follows: The 'servant' that Natsuhi pushed off the cliff was 1967 Beatrice. The child from 19 years ago being her and Kinzo's baby, Natsuhi missunderstood being made to take care of her, it was actually a sign of great trust and not a punishment. Both 1967 Beatrice and the baby died from the fall off the cliff and the second Battler = Jessica is actually Asumu's baby, another child that Natsuhi was made to take care off...
... maybe I'm wrong though.

The problem with Rosa's and Natsuhi's stories is that, during the event with the kid 19 years ago, Rosa was not in the island.

My best bet is that Rosa's Beatrice had a kid, after she died, that kid was entrusted to Natsuhi. Even before EP5, it had been hinted Rosa's Beatrice may have had a child; so, it works, I think.

Speaking of the Rosa scene, was Natsuhi's reaction to her story worth noticing?

>>5742806

I'm assuming you're talking about the second twilight from episode two. I'm actually pretty certain Jessica only faked her death there. Indication: "corpse" was not said in red.

Imagine there's 'Beatrice' living in Kuwadorian. She's mostly accompanied by Kumasawa and Genji when Kinzo's not around. Eventually, this Beatrice gets pregnant and has a child, while the heir's wife, Natsuhi, still can't give birth. The child would be an heir to Ushiromiyas, and Kinzo decides to give the child to Natsuhi. Beatrice, naturally, wants to stay close to her child and she starts working as a servant, looking after the child. Then Natsuhi happens. "Beatrice" is dead and Rosa is the witness to that. Child has probably survived. Now, Rosa's interpretation is pretty weird, she could've lied, or maybe everything got mixed up in her memories. I don't remember the scene, but what was Natsuhi's reaction when Rosa told the story of "killing" Beatrice?
And as an idea - what if the child's parent was not Kinzo, but Genji? I remember Genji saying something about being indebted to Kinzo, may be connected to this and his status as "furniture". Because Genji doesn't seem to have any other personalities to explain his "furniture" in ShKanon fashion.

>The child from 19 years ago being her and Kinzo's baby
So Natsuhi and Kinzo had a baby together, meaning that Erika's theory about them sleeping together is technically true?

What I REALLY wanna know is where Mrs Ushiromiya/Kinzo's wife is during all of this. We know she died, but we don't know when or where. How many of these events was she even around for?

>>5742809
That sounds reasonable. After losing the first baby, Natsuhi felt guilt, then another opportunity to have a child came about in Jessica, Natsuhi being ashamed of not being able to bear children tells everyone that Jessica is her birth child, makes sense.

>>5742802

Rosa wouldn't recognise Beatrice and Kuwadorian, the scene with virgilia and the (other) beatrice takes place much later if that beatrice is Battler's one.

>>5742809
My problem with Jessica being Asumu's child or the baby 19 years ago would be that Krauss and pretty much everyoe in the island would know. Moreover, if she was Asumu's child, we've never seen Rudolph been particularly close to her, even though she'd be his daughter, and in addition, I think that'd give him a good motive to receive favours from Krauss.

>>5742806

This theory also.. *shudder* can use shkannontrice. But not as the TRUE culprit, but the one in the game. Yes, it's fucked up, but it is a theory i harbour "love" for even if it's sucky, it explains lot but also opens up new and mostly unanswerable questions. Which sucks.

I dont believe in the Knox rules until they'll confirmed to apply to Umineko, so I can solve Umineko just like I want to!

I always found Natsuhi's reaction to be excessive. Murdering children and all. But what if the child was Krauss's child with another woman? The Rosarocks, for example. Would explain why'd she want to kill both the servant (the mother) and the child in an explosion of Kirie-like rage.

>>5742853
2 out of 6 of the eps are joke murder.
Being a joke murder also confirmed on why PEOPLE are ignoring Kanon/Shannon playacting.

>>5742841
So the other scene is a different Beatrice?

That's.....confusing.

Then again, if Ronove and Virgilia are meant to represent Genji and Kumasawa, some of the only people who had access to Kuwadorian, it'd make sense that Beatrice would have strong ties to them.

>>5742862
They are said in Red.

>>5742883
Who's Gaap then? I doubt Jessica had access to the mansion.
And Gaap is a person, not an item, because she has blue eyes and not red ones like Sakutarou/Siestas/Stakes.

Something confuses me.

Battler is 19 years old.
Kyrie has harbored hatred for Asumu for 18 years.
However, Asumu died about 6 years ago and Kyrie married shortly afterwords giving birth to Ange.
This causes Battler to abandon the Ushiromiya family for 6 years.

What confuses me about this was that if Asumu married Rudolph right after pregnancy, then she would've only been married for about 12 years (maybe 13), not 18. That being said, where does Kyrie's 18 years of Envy come from?

>>5742901
The Gaap = Nanjo theory tends to hold up when you consider that Gaap's specific function is to hide bodies, and Nanjo's function is pretty much to determine who is a body in the first place.

It could explain Gaap's attatchment to Virgilia if they're actually meant to represent a couple. Nanjo X Kumasawa isn't entirely implausible and could actually give Nanjo a reason to return to the island other than to lie about Kinzo still being alive. Also, the mention of his 'granddaughter' is one huge fucking Chekov's gun.

>>5742923
Probably the very fact that her kid died whilst her one lived, leaving her with a constant reminder of her in Battler.

>>5742923
Courtship, I suppose. Then again this is Rudolf we're talking about so "courtship" might mean something entirely different.

>>5742923
Battler is 18 years old. Kyrie's hell ended after she get her son (Battler) back.

>>5742973
I know what you are.
Say it, out loud say it.
Furniture...

>>5742973
Make it "Second Twilight" and it'll be paafekuto.

>>5742882

2?

I say that all eps apart from 5 started with the joke murders.

It never happened in 5 because they solved the epitath before the joke was meant to begin.

It also explains the absolute shenanigans that go on in ep 4.

>>5742973

>>5743064

Yeah let's forget about these bodies that had their faces smashed to hell and these corpses that all their stomaches filled with candies.
It was just a joke after all.
Yeah... you know there is that thing called the red text that guarantee these murders.

So.. did anyone already theorize that maybe all the murders are just everyone making a simulation so that they'll get the gold?
Not realizing it was about wordplay, they really thought about some kind of weird ritual killing and tried to enact it -but without actually killing people- to reach the solution. Corpse disappear because from the killing on they're "outside the game".
They probably wouldn't put it past Kinzo to think about murdering his family in a gruesome way for a ritual.

>>5743071
So, uh, who is the sparkly one? Jessica?

>>5743075
People don't want to think two things.

The first being that Beatrice is a selfish cunt of a murderer.

The second being that Battler is dumb enough to blame himself for Beatrice being a selfish cunt of a murderer.

Sadly, both of these are true.

>>5743075
It starts as a joke. It was supposed to occur like in Ep 6 - 6 people play dead and scare others. But other never notice anything till morning, becuase the murderer uses this opportunity right away. Corpses in the shed are real when we see them. Murderer could've them off-guard like Erika did.

>>5743075

No, let's not forget.

Example. Ep 2, scene in the chapel with everyone "accepting" "beatoriche. I.e. They are accepting to play along. They sit down to eat to discuss it. Someone knew in advance of the "game" Poisons the food, actually commits the murder. People apart of the game left the chapel while they were eating, come back in the morning feigning shock, then afterwards realize that you can't just fake candy in the stomach syndrome...

Say this happens in other games. It's easy to include it. If you look.

>>5743071
LESBIAN SPARKLY VAMPIRES
FUCKING FUND IT

>>5743125
>others
>because
>caught
Self fix.

>>5743129
It doesn't make sense given what we saw.
And you are supposed to be able to know the whole truth with episode 1 to 4, no way you could think OH IT WAS JUST A PRANK THAT WENT TOO FAR.

You know why the prank thing was used for episode 5 and 6? It was simply because of the GMs.
Lambda made episode 5 as unreliable as possible because she doesn't want the game to end, she isn't like Beatrice.
And Battler is just too soft, he tried to create an episode where no one would have to die, well till the last boom I guess, anyways he wanted to make an episode without murders.

Beatrice wanted Battler to know the truth, that's why she let him saw lots of clues in the form of these murders.

>>5743171

I know it doesn't make complete sense, i know it's just a small glimmering hope, but i like it. In my opinion it makees more godamn sense than shkannontrice is the culprit anyway, although shkannon is probably true whether or not they are the culprit is retarded. It's just shmion antics again, drawing away from the real culprit.

My problem with Shkanon(trice) is that rather than an answer, it just feels as if we're trying to bypass the Red with any possible method.

I mean, come on. Shannon leaves the room as Kanon (for whatever reason), enters the room changes places with Battler, and then she becomes Shannon again, just because.

In addition to this we're assuming that personalities can die (be killed).

The whole thing feels terribly unnatural. Sure, I know that EP6 gave a lot of Shkanon vibes with the whole love duel, and the closed room being difficult, but still, the theory feels too convoluted.

I'm sure the must be a missing link that makes this whole deal easier to digest, and I bet the answers lie in the epitaph.

>>5743523
>The thing feels unnatural

Ryukishi writes supernatural novels.

>>5744062
That must have a natural answer.