/jp/ - Otaku Culture

Wright

It will finally give the answer, then you will finally be able to move on from this shit for real.

Why is Beatrice dead?

Shkanon denied in Gold.

Insane narration by Bern, plus new!beato being no longer Moetrice.

>>5719588
She pretty much denied herself with the red last Episode.

>>5719594
The 17 people?

>>5719585
Meh

>>5719587
Be told Shkanon is true in Red? Seriously man? EP6 was enough of a kick in the balls as it is.

>>5719588
She basically denied herself in Red with the (Only 17 people), that and Ange confirmed at the end that Beato was "put to sleep".

>>5719578
To find out why they are crazy and Beato reason for taking it easy and letting Battler win.

I refused to believe in such shitty reason as LOVE. This will also make or break Ryukishi reputation. If he make shkanon believable he will redeem himself. If he failed and it come out as a bullshit retarded murder plot device, he will put in the HALL OF SHIT.

>>5719614
So that meant that Beatrice could not have existed due to leaving no room? But wasn't it said with red on ep 5 that there were really 17 people on the island due to kinzo's death?-

>>5719602
18 Humans and 17 people.

Which is either confirming that there are 16 LIVE and 2 DEAD humans (Erika and Kinzo), and 17 'people' included in that 16 living humans (Shkannon), or else it confirmed that Erika did make it to the island alive (17 LIVE humans and 17 PEOPLE) with 1 extra body (Kinzo)

Either way, there's no room for Beatrice.

>>5719629
So this was the truth battler realized?

Erika needs her own detective series in the vein of Case Closed.

>>5719634
Battler realized the truth at the end of Ep5.

>>5719634
I doubt it.

But remember, as has been said repeatedly since Episode fucking one, 'Beatrice' is a manifestation of the 'rules' of that world. She's been just a phantom from the start, and could only be resurrected when Battler took over the game and re-created the illusion of the witch.

The 'Beatrice' Battler met on the game board doesn't have to be directly linked to Meta-Beato, she is simply another factor in creating Beato.

>>5719640
Every goddamn episode would be just like 'The Murder of Roger Ackroyd.'

It would be glorious.

>>5719640

"Quick Dlan-chan, we need to transform!
Chop-chu-chu chopsticku~ powaaa!"

Even if we were to say that, with Shkanon and assuming Erika is dead, Beatrice being there is impossible since Erika's "Everyone else".

>>5719640
She catches criminals by finding conveniently placed rolls of tape to tie them up with, every single episode?

ShKanon(trice) is a given now so I guess most of you accepted it.
But are you going to accept when the gameboard and meta characters will be revealed to be simply fiction/illusion?
That mean even your BeatoxBattler pairing is nothing more than a fiction.

>>5719662
There is also the "everyone is in the room" in episode 5.

>>5719672
It's all fiction, all of it. Every last word.

>>5719576

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>>5719672
Beato as a western looking witch is an illusion. However, the personality isn't false at all. Well, not entirely.

Anyway, the whole Meta will collapse when the game ends. That's a given. Well, maybe.

>>5719646
She might be the Rule X component, actually. Bern apparently thinks that rule refers to the explosion because Lambda told her she "certainly can't win", but maybe she guessed wrong, and Lambda was referring to something love-related that Bern can't see?

I really hope this guy kicks Battler's ass.

Seriously.

>>5719693
What for? Personally, I'm tired to see Battler getting his ass kicked.

>>5719718
Bern and Wright versus Ange and Mammon would be much more entertaining. Battler can meddle in the background to sneak his sister hints, and then there will be an epic reversal at the end like in EP5.

>>5719718

This

The only time Battler has been seriously kicking ass was in EP5.

>>5719576
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dccsgausa hw sv mnszsfy g etajzo usopnklgoyhuwycci k b

Whatever happened to Battler's endless 9?
He became a sorcerer and it was like it was forgotten.

>>5719767
When was he targeted by magic attacks in EP6?

>>5719767
It's just fantasy bullshit.
Think of the fantasy fights will all these weird moves like these battles kids have in kindergarten.
Like I'M PUTTING AN INVINCIBLE SHIEDL etc...

>>5719780
DIPLOMATIC IMMUNITY

>>5719792
Damn dude, you were a smart and classy kid back then.

>>5719792
AoE attack.

I remember back in the days when I thought Maria was creepy and that she probably knew something. But now, I cannot help but to laugh and pity her.

If only Maria had killed kanon back then....

Remember when we thought Battler = Amakusa?

>>5719821
Like yestreday?

>>5719828
EP6 flat-out denied that possibility, bro.

>>5719821
Remember when we all thought Erika was a bitch?

>>5719838

When was that?

>>5719839

She still is

>>5719839

We still think that.

>>5719839
We still do.

I still feel kind of bad for her, but...

I have a theory that is based on 1-4 eps and explains most of the metaphors and riddles in 6 without Shkannon. But I don't feel like starting another shitstorm and defending it against rabid shkannonfags, so I'm just waiting for confirmation/refutation in ep7.

Remember when we tought that Shkanon was jossed at EP5?

I really think SakutarouxSlightlyTsundereMaria would be the best pairing that could come out of this series now.

>>5719839
Thats her moe!

>>5719843
At the end of the Tea Party.
Unless you want someone in the game to show up and say "BTW, Amakuza is not Battler" then it's been pretty much pointed out they are different people.

>>5719855
>I have no theories, so I'll just pretend to look cool in /jp/.

>>5719855
If you don't post it, you're either lying or just a faggot. And I think it's both.

>>5719869

...Herp, remind me. What did who say?

>>5719876
>>5719878
Whatever.

of course to be remined how great and underappreciated and misunderstood an author Ryukishi07 is.

>>5719855
>>5719876
>>5719878

Here comes the shitstorm...

I really hope for full answer in EP 7.

I am sick reading all nonsense theories of /jp. Shkanon and the likes.

>>5719855
Probably too retarded to be posted right?

What I want to know is, what is this filthy work that Kanon has to do?

>>5719916
suck cocks

>>5719885
Why don't you re-read the scene?
Okonogi and Amakuza are basically using Ange.
We even get to see Amakuza's thoughts on the matter.

>>5719916
lol I had noticed that too. I have no idea.

>>5719928
>>5719916
Sucking Kinzo's cock must be a hard job.

>>5719928
Sex with Kinzo?

>>5719908
Nobody wants to post their non-Shkannon theories here because it will just cause the thread to devolve into a shitstorm and no one will bother to actually think about them.

>>5719916
Looking after the old man's corpse?

>>5719936
Well theories that are made to counter ShKanon are usually retarded stuff like the Zero theory so it's normal people don't take them seriously.

>>5719945
Kinzo was still alive during this scene.

>>5719936
I boldly post my non-Shkanon theories as well as my Shkanon theories here every Umineko theory thread. I tend to get ignored because of much more intense infighting.

>>5719936
People would actually read them anyway and, if lucky, would help improve them. Of course we aren't moving anywhere when even if people have other theories they aren't posting them.

>>5719936
Hmm...? We've had several threads about non-shkanon theories. Now, you see, people discuss them and point out flaws. So, unless you want to post your theory and expect people to be "nice Anon, good job!" without poking at the flaws of whatever you've come up with (i.e. assuming you have), then don't do it.

In fact, the fact you're saying you have a theory but that you won't post it simply shows you're attention-whoring. GTFO.

>>5719949
How come? It was the summer before this conference, not the previous one, wasn't it?

>>5719949
Wasn't this during 1985?

I think Kinzo was already dead at that point.

>>5719957
It was 2 years ago I think.
Anyways Kinzo was seen outside during a scene crying for Beatrice so he was alive.

>>5719952
I'm not the original guy. However, I have posted my own theories here before, and either they get ignored or ten people post "you're overthinking it, Shkannon is obvious" and an unrelated flame war starts. It's not worth the effort.

Does anyone know what theories Japan has for the culprit? Are they thinking that Shkannontrice is true?

>>5719966
AND KANON AND SHANNON SAW BEATRICE!
NATSUHI ALSO SAW KINZO AS WELL. OH, AND BEATRICE TOO.

>>5719977
Really? I've seen several theories posted here. Discussion was had.

>>5719995
Yes, Shkanon is also popular in Japan.

>>5719977
I am not OP nor the guy above and also posted theories witch could explain umineko without shkanon and it was ignored just because.

How about reposting them, theories people? Don't you have copypasta saved anywhere? I'm in the mood for a sound discussion.

I wonder if Japan has alternatives to Shkannontrice.

The problem with these alternate theories is that most of them feel like they were written by people butthurt over ShKanon(trice) and who just want to disprove it rather than people who actually try to find the truth and solve the game.

Only people we can be sure of at this point are Ange, Juuza, and the rest of those motherfuckers from 1998.

Battler, Beatrice, all those other chucklefucks, they're fake. Meta-Battler never existed.


All there is left is to wait to see if anyone besides Eva survived the island incident. If you believe that Battler is Juuza, and that he is obsessed with money because he's taking care of someone, we could have a few survivors.

>>5719995
Just from eyeballing the EP6 theory list on umineco.info, I see a couple Shkannon variations and the Erika corpse theory on the EP6 theory list, along with a discussion of whether personality death is legal. There's also a theory about Meta and Piece Erika being different people.

So yeah, pretty much the same spread of stuff. I don't see anything that looks like Kanzo on there though.

I have a theory about Amakusa. He is Battler with amnesia.

Posted it a few days ago.

>>5720054
And by few you mean blind Jessica, because everyone else was declared dead in red, if we assume ep3 is the truth.

>>5720057
>personality death is legal

They also fell for the DID trap?
Fuck... I expected better, but I guess the same people read this VN. No offence intended.

Personally, I think one of them, either Shannon or Kanon died before the 1986 conference, and the other one inherited that person's name and has been posing. I think the one that survived is Kanon.

>>5720054
I'll call it now - Battler, Jessica, Shannon, these three might still yet live.

Battler because he's the main character, Jessica because she's the embodiment of innocence, and Shannon because she'd make for a good final boss for Ange.

>>5720071
>blind Jessica
Moe~

>>5720078
>Personally, I think one of them, either Shannon or Kanon died before the 1986 conference, and the other one inherited that person's name and has been posing
Knox destroy this possibility.

And stop talking like you have a superior intellect or something when the only thing you can do is repeat theories that have been disproved ages ago.

>>5720071
Jessica was only temporarily blinded, though.

>>5719847

I'll miss Erika, but I think her time on the stage is up. I do hope we see a return of Dlanor Knox. Maybe Dine and Dlanor can tag team Battler and whoever is supporting him in the next round.

>>5720094
According to the BEST DOCTOR EVER she was.

I don't know, I think her being blind would fit in to why Juuza is such a money grubbing whore.

>>5720092
Knox doesn't disprove it at all.

Also, I'm not acting as if intellectually superior, or anything. I just do my research, you know.

>>5720099
Yeah, because Battler is just SO competent...

>>5720094
The big b0mb blinded her completely.

>>5720106
That doesn't make much sense. Unless you're assuming Eva was the culprit, then they have enough money to give her whatever treatment you think she needs. Because, as far as I know, you cannot cure blindness.

>>5720122
Nah, not a cure for blindness, but being blind would require support.

And here's the theory - Eva doesn't know that Battler and Blind Jessica would still be alive, so it wouldn't be like she'd be able to support either one of them.

This is, of course, assuming Battler is Juuza.

>>5720107
Knox disprove it clearly.
># Knox's 10th, it is forbidden for a character to disguise themselves as another without any CLUES!

whatever happened to Jessica being the culprit and all that shady stuff about her talking battler over the phone about george dying even though she left first and whatnot?

>>5720140
People realized that they were idiots and that they was no way Jessica could be the culprit.
Jessitrice is pretty much dead.

>>5720140
Well, that is one of the more puzzling scenes, but here is how I take it, Jessica and Kyrie both manned the fuck up, realized they were dealing with a maniac, and tried to save at least Battler's life by telling him to accept the witch, even knowing that they would be dead.

>>5720144
Yeah, that's why EP7 title is Requiem of the Golden Witch

>>5720139
That's like saying there are no clues for Shkanon man.
The fact no detective sees them together, like ever, is one big clue.
Seriously, man.

>>5720139
But there has been a ton of clues that Shannon and Kanon share the same body.

There's other ways for that to happen than a mental disease, such as a magical illusion of a living person through careful planning.

>>5719808

If Erika can be Bern's piece on the gameboard, why can't Maria be Beatrice's? It seems like Maria's role is to support the illusion of the Witch.

>>5720160
Because Maria is retarded, uu.

>>5720155
>>5720157
It's not the fucking same thing.
Where is my clue that Shannon or Kanon died before 1986 or whatever?

Where is my clue that Shannon and Kanon could pass convincingly for each other despite not even being true siblings?

Where is my clue that Shannon or Kanon could inherit each other name?


Yeah there are tons of clue that THEY SHARE A BODY but no clue that one could pass for the other despite being different people.

>>5720137
Unless we follow the "Amakuza is an amnesiac Battler" then that makes no sense. They could have contacted Eva. She showed up in TV several times and everyone talked about her. If they were alive, they should have known she was alive.

>>5720165

Fuck off. She's not retarded.

>>5719629
I can be the 5th human in my room even if there are 9387429237492. It only means that there are AT LEAST 5 humans.

>>5719662
>>5719674
Why do you think Battler was reluctant to say it? Supposing Beatrice exists on the island, it was because it must have done so that Beatrice was in that room (EP6 is a fantasy EP, that is why until it does not contrast the red everything is possible, even without a motivation, for example Kyrie had no motivation to """save""" Battler, but if it does not oppose the red it is ok to think that). That is also a possible explanation. The same goes for Lambda, since she did not want to expose the real truth to Bern. (That is why she creates a game where Natsuhi as the culprit is possible)

>>5719855
You too? I also have a theory based on EP1-4 that explains everything that can both involve ShKanon or not. (Not Shkanontrice, though.)

Anyhow, if you want I can post my theory, I have no problem with it, however is a long WoT, I have uploaded the doc on mediafire...

>>5720170
She believes that the horrible deaths of everyone will open the way to the golden land.

Yeah, she's pretty damn retarded.

>>5720166
The Red is enough clue for them being dead. You can assume the Red refers to a period of time before 1986, which is the same as with Kinzo.

They may have looked similar. That's like asking how people didn't notice they were the same person, if you follow the idea of DID.

The possibility of inheriting names was posed in EP4, and possibly before.

>>5720179

She's not retarded. extremely immature for her age and guillible as fuck, then yes. But retarded? No.

>>5720184
You are proposing no clue, you are just talking about possibility.

Knox ask for clues, that's how it work.
Shannon posing for a dead Kanon convincingly enough or vice versa hasn't even got a tiny bit of foreshadowing.
And why could it happen? They aren't even siblings, they are stranger that were raised in the same orphanage, how the fuck could one pass for the other in such ways that nearly everyone wouldn't realize it?

But of course the loophole to Knox is simply that there is no disguise, Shannon isn't disguising into Kanon or vice versa, from the very beginning they were simply the same person.
That's the only way to pass Knox, that's the only way for Shannon to be convincing enough as Kanon.

Maria's father didn't run away. He was living with her and Rosa, but one day he abused the poor little Maria. Her mother went on a rampage and killed him. Then, Rosa hid the body on a huge stuffed animal, moved it to the island and used some clothes of a random servant she pushed off the stairs and needed to retire. Nobody would recognize him, and the cap on his head fit it perfectly

>>5720225
wat

>>5720204
That's where the interpretations of the Knox rules come into play.

- No one ever sees them together.
- We've seen Red Text stating their deaths.
- Personalities cannot died, and you cannot create personalities at whim. DID doesn't work this way.

The first 2 are clues. The 3rd one is research. If you connect the dots and are a bit creative, you can come with a theory like this, without violating the Knox rules or the Red Text.

>>5720155
Easier answer.
If, by their nickname bullshit, Kanon "officially" took Shannon's identity and name and became Shannon, he can be Shannon without it being considered as a disguisement. He is just the "new shannon".
And hiding a death to some people is probably more explainable than hiding a DID.

Well, I don't like this theory, but Knox don't do anything here. Knox 10, in every case.

>>Where is my clue that Shannon and Kanon could pass convincingly for each other despite not even being true siblings?

>>Where is my clue that Shannon and Kanon could pass convincingly for each other despite not even being true siblings?

>>Yeah there are tons of clue that THEY SHARE A BODY

>>5720171
>long WoT
That's exactly why I'm not willing to type these scattered thoughts out with my not-so-fluent english and then gather dozens screencaps in order to maybe slightly convince some people. But I'll read yours if you post the link.

>>5720236
-Them never being seen together isn't a clue that one can pass for each other or one died prior to the game.

-You've seen red text stating the deaths of everyone, so what?

-Hachijou and Ange agree that 2 personalities who grow in 1 body can be seen as 2 different persons. So why couldn't these "persons" die too?
And nobody ever said that the DID appeared for nothing.
DID is usually created due to a trauma, there is room enough to give a traumatic backstory to Sayo.

And yes you are clearly violating Knox.

>>5720017
Guess I'll repost this then, and see if anyone has useful input.

The true identity of Beatrice is a kind of shared fictional character that was developed on the island. She is generated by the rules as follows:

Rule X: Shannon created the Moetrice character as an outlet for her feelings for Battler and wrote or imagined stories about her. When Battler failed to return, Shannon's feelings about his "sin" started to creep into the character. This core of love is why Bern "certainly can't win" - she won't be able to understand it.

Rule Y: The "legendary Beatrice" character started as a prank by Kinzo and picked up details from the Akujikishima demon legend, the actual Beatrice-2 who died. Over time, it accumulated due to various pranks and rumors from the servants, creating the "environment where a witch could exist" that Featherine talked about.

Rule Z: Moetrice and Legendary Beatrice were synthesized to create "Beatrice the Golden", a character in the script for the fake death scenario. The script is finished on the day of the conference and is arbitrarily different between game boards, which is why Bern can't map it out. Random people on the island are bribed with gold to participate in the performance, and someone plays the role of Beato herself, so Beato is "endlessly realized" on the game board.

>>5720257
Since Beato is a role that someone is playing, by extension, everyone else who claims to be furniture (Kanon, Shannon, and Genji) is also playing a role. For instance, the real Kanon is playing the role of "Kanon the furniture who opposes Beatrice."

Because you can state objectively true things about the plot of a story, it should be possible for red truth to apply to the actions of these furniture characters in addition to the real actors behind them. This is why Beato can say she handed a letter over to Rosa in EP2, and why in the same episode, Kanon can "die" and still appear later.

Erika's situation sheds light on the whole thing because she herself is a character. In EP5, someone decided to make the fake death plot a proper mystery adhering to the Knox rules, so they added in a detective character. This is why Knox can be stated in red even though the rules don't apply in the wider story, as Dlanor and Virgilia indicated. Erika's duct taping and other ridiculous actions also take place in the fiction, so red truth can be used about them in that context as well.

The final red about the person count confirms Erika is a character. There are 18 humans in the fictional world of the fake death plot as she says, but only 17 people in the real world.

>>5720239
The thing is that if he's not disguising, then we'd have to doubt George's sexual orientation. No problem with that though.

And well, Battler has seen Shannon. So has Erika. They are detectives. So...

>>5720251
Once again, that's not the same thing.
Truly, nothing has EVER been said about Kanon and Shannon appearance, about the fact that they look like each other.
So Knox should deny it immediately.
But Knox only talk about disguise, the DID thing isn't a disguise it's simply Shannon being Shannon and Kanon being Kanon with the only problem being that they share the same body.

>>5720239
You should still explain how Kanon can pass for Shannon if you want to pass Knox.

>>5720255
>-Hachijou and Ange agree that 2 personalities who grow in 1 body can be seen as 2 different persons. So why couldn't these "persons" die too?
Except they weren't talking about 2 personalities growing in the same body at the same time, but about different upbringing that can create different personalities, even if the body is the same.

>>5720279
That's the exact same fucking thing you know.

>>5720280
I will wait for my BeaBato's ENDING

>>5720285
No, it's not. You have one body. If you'll raise it one way, you'll gain one person(ality), if you'll raise it another way, you'll gain another. NOT at the same time.

>>5720253
Would you like to speak about it on msn? If you'd like to, send me an email with your msn account to my email.

>>5720257
Why putting X, Y and Z everywhere? This is Umineko, not Higurashi. xD
Higurashi -> Rule X, Y, Z
Umineko -> No traces of X, Y, Z

Wait, first time reading the detailed explanation of ShKanon theory. But something doesn't make sense.

In episode 1, they see Kanon in the rose garden working and Battler introduce himself. Right after that they enter the mansion and find Shannon.

First, how Kanon changed costumes so quick?
Second, why Kanon would change into Shannon? There was no need of that.

Yeah, I know it's a scene without importance but still it contradicts somehow. If you guys are so sure about ShKanon theory you have to solve EVERYTHING, right?

>>5720294
Tell that to Bernkastel, she's the one who used that terminology in her letter.

>>5720268
(Always me, 5720294)
In one scene, they also say that Shannon and Kanon look very different.

>>5720285
No, it's not.And by the way no, personalities can't die. In the worst case, they can "no longer exist". But this word is used many time in umineko, so dying and disappearing are clearly different things in umineko.

>>5720293
You forgot with one body.
Learn to read between the lines, why did R07 wrote about it.
It's basically what Dissociative Identity Disorder is.

>>5720303
Actually, here's a link if you haven't read it:
http://umineko.wikia.com/wiki/TIPS/Bernkastel%27s_Letter
Very interesting stuff, especially since it seems she was writing to Featherine.

>>5720255
Them not been seen together brings forth the possibility that one of the doesn't exist. This can lead to some conclusions, like DID or that one of them may have existed in the past.

The identities of the other people are not in question, However, Red Text for Kinzo's death is a great hint, since it shows us the Red can also mention people that were already dead before the game.

2 personalities are indeed different people, but personalties do not die. Unless R07 doesn't know how DID works, and I'm sure he's done his research, then that's not a possibility.

As for the whole traumatic deal, that's true. However, we've seen Shannon and Kanon communicate and they've talked about each other. This is another thing about DID that is false. Communication amongst alters doesn't happen. Well, it may happen after some serious treatment, but all the same, is not that common.

In addition to this, Beatrice, as far as EP6 goes, was created on a whim. That, once again, is another proof for this not being DID.

>>5720268
And it is exactly the same thing here, by the way. Kanon isn't disguising here.
By the way, I was quoting this because of the

>>Where is my clue that Shannon and Kanon could pass convincingly for each other despite not even being true siblings?
When your own theory is even more blocked because of something, saying this as an argument against another theory is funny.

>>5720298
How did Shannon find the time to change clothes, break into the locked chapel, and put on his/her best dead Kanon impression before the family got there while probably using the same path since it seems that there's only one in episode 3?

>>5720298
They meet Kanon who then go away.
After that time pass and they go to the side house, then Shannon come.
She had all the time in the world.

And for the other stuff, it's not about Kanon disguising as Shannon, it's DID so it's more like the Shannon personality took the "helm" while Kanon went to sleep.

>>5720294
No, I don't use any messengers and such. You said that you have no problem with it.

>>5720320
>How did Shannon find the time to change clothes, break into the locked chapel, and put on his/her best dead Kanon impression before the family got there while probably using the same path since it seems that there's only one in episode 3?

Stop creating false problem.
Shannon went outside by the windows and directly went to the chapel, she had all the time she wanted since the others were busy chasing the trail that she left in the mansion.

>>5720298
He changed himself for fun. Like alwas during the whole story. (moreover pieces don't know about the red, so have fun and imagine every stupid switch Kanon and Shannon must do without a reason)

>>5720317
>When your own theory is even more blocked because of something, saying this as an argument against another theory is funny, it's about someone posing as someone else.

What you don't understand is that Knox does have something against DISGUISE, which is what your theory is, but it has nothing against DID.
There is no disguise and therefore Knox doesn't apply, therefore I don't have to bring these clues, understand?
It's called a loophole.

>>5720310
If you read only one screenshot, then yes. But the whole conversation wasn't about that. But you only see what you want to see.
>1278778444100.png
I see that you didn't pay much attention to reading it and screening yourself.

>>5720311
Considering that she basically told Hanyuu to fuck off when she met her, I doubt she will call her "my dear friend" in the letter.

I can't help but think that ShKanon is a stupid theory... Not because it doesn't have clues. It's because the clues are only in episode 2 and 6. There's no way to solve all the episodes with that theory.

>>5720337
That's why I told you to read between the lines.
And I probably paid more attention than you.

People see shit like the duel and still think ShKanon isn't true?
Fuck, R07 hammered it during the whole episode, your heads must be made of the densest metal ever.

>>5720346
It's a very stupid theory.

But most of the people on /jp/ don't want to think up their own theories anymore so it's the only thing we end up discussing.

>>5720336
Knox says that there cannot be someone under disguise unless there are clues. However, Knox never defines what a clue is.

>>5720346
There are clues all over the place. Here, this is from EP1.

24 days left, keep your delusion till the end if you want but don't complain when ShKanontrice will be revealed to be true.

>>5720367
It doesn't say what a clue is because you should be smart enough to know what a clue in a mystery novel is if you're reading it.

>>5720336
I'm not talking about this here.
More clearly, Shkannon isn't really awesome on this part, it is quite the opposite of this problem.
It does not involve Knox for Shkannon, but idc, there is also a clear problem of "nobody noticing" in the story. So using this kind of thing to defend your theory is kind of funny.
.
And still, with the identity trick, if you do it correctly, Knox isn't a problem neither. But it's not my theory here, so I don't care.

Following fantasy, Shannon and Kanon share a soul between two bodies, this is why one's love could not succeed while the other still lived. However, they are physically two people.

Following mystery, in Ep6 Shannon and Kanon are seen in different rooms of the guest mansion, and are acknowledged to be in two different sealed rooms.

>>5720371
No, George, I think dissociative identity disorder is actually pretty rare.

>>5720359
Because your mind is polluted, you can't see anything besides that in the duel.

>>5720371
Yep, lots of clues for people playing roles everywhere.

I can see the ShKanon theory explaining the amount of persons in the island, sure, but I can't stand people saying they're the culprit, you know? It wouldn't make sense. But the ShKanon theory make sense though, and it'd be a good explanation to the mystery of the amount of people in the island

>>5720345
Bern was almost certainly writing to a creator witch though. I don't know who else we have besides Featherine.

>>5720384
Tell me what is the most plausible:
-2 different kids from 2 different families and gender.
One day one die so the other decide to take his place litteraly and play both roles.

Or

-Only one girl, this girl decides one day to play another role he created, the role of a boy.
This girl dresses like a boy and completely change her attitude and begin to play both roles.

So which one seem the more plausible?

>>5720377
Yes, but mate, clues can vary from novel to novel. It's the same in Umineko. Never been seen together and have their own deaths proclaimed in Red work as clues for one of them being under disguise.

>>5720359
A duel is a duel. It could mean countless things. But think what you want. people like you are annoying, if everything you have to say is that people are retarded because they are searching further than you (this being a good thing or a bad thing, whatever) then you should say nothing at all.
Remember the wall of blue truth in ep4?
Same here. Everyone know about Shkannon, but one theory is not enough, just in case.

>>5720371
That's not DID. That's just role theory, fresh from Sociology 101. God damn it George, get it together.

>>5720390
I could say the same for you.
You are so against ShKanon that you refuse to see anything that could implicate it.

>>5720384
Well Shkanon is definitely stupid but it also has fuck ton of evidence, probably confirmed as well.
It is only stupid because we doesnt have the circumstances behind it.
We have people lying about Kinzo being alive, people acting as corpse and I wouldnt be surprised if they are lying about cosdressing pad meido. Battler hasn't seem them in 6years and the non rokkenjima resident only see them once a year.
Do note that Kanon is new as well, probably created at the same as the splitting golden brooch.

>>5720412
Well, it doesn't necessary have to be someone in the story.

Well...Beato was never included in the island count, with Kinzo dead the count was brought to 17, Erika brought it to 18, and at the end of ep6 Beato and Battler fire the final truth and say "Even if you were to join us, there are still only 17 people." This does not deny Beato, but rather some other person on the island, which could support ShKanon. This is weird though because this truth violates the red of the past game that confirms that without Kinzo there are only 17 people on the island (excluding Erika)

>>5720425
I'm just offering counter points.
If your theories are solid enough, they can get over it.

>>5720416
The first one, because the second one would not be a DID in the first place.
No, a DID is not when you are "hey, I want to be a girl, let's create another personnality". Sorry.

However, the first one can easily be explained by some kind of trauma and Kanon not accepting the death of his sister. This kind of thing happens IRL, IIRC

>>5720424
Their deaths have been confirmed in red in episode 2 and 3.

>>5720447
I guess that being raped and mindfucked by a crazy old guy could be enough of a trauma to make someone have a DID, no?

>>5720442
at this point I'm not even defending my theories, but the duel alone don't mean anything. Well, if it's not a " BUT THERE IS A DUEL SO IT HAVE TO BE A DID NO OTHER WAY" like we have since ep6 is out, it's okay, sorry.

>>5720447
>However, the first one can easily be explained by some kind of trauma and Kanon not accepting the death of his sister. This kind of thing happens IRL

Yeah but people REALIZE IT.

>>5720459
And you have about as many clues for that as you have for Shannon being dead and Kanon taking is place.

then who was culprit?

>>5720470
>And you have about as many clues for that as you have for Shannon being dead and Kanon taking is place.

Beatrice, on the gameboard, clearly state that Kinzo tied her, raped her, tortured her.
Not enough proofs for you?

>>5720468
People also realize DID.
you just shoot yourself in the foot here.

>>5720479
Rudolf and Kyrie

>>5720433
Not really. I understand this theory perfectly, probably even more than many shkannonfags, who just parroting the same shit, they have read somewhere, without thought and I admit that it's pretty solid, despite some things.

>>5720480
Yeah, this Beatrice. but if you don't care about the date, sure, we don't care and it is certain.And even here you have to assume that Shannon is Beatrice.
When you have to assume something in order to have a proof, there is a problem somewhere.

>>5720485
No, many crazy people manage to live without people realizing it.

I'm talking about something that is logical.
Let say you wanted to become the woman you see every days when you go buy your bread in the morning.
Could you do it? Could you pass as her in front of her friends?

Now let say that one day you decide to become a trap for some reason.
So you buy some make-up, wig, etc...
Could you, if you are good enough, pass as another person?

It's just a question of plausibility.

>>5720485
People don't realise DID that easily. In fact, most people never do until other people tell them about it. And then, even if they have realised their illness, they cannot communicate with their alters.

>>5720480
Clearly, Beatrice talks about her legend and the time when other 'she' lived in Kuwadorian.

>>5720505
WHY SHANNON IS BEATRICE FOR THE MOST RETARDED.
Episode 6: We have the flashback of 6 years ago with "Beatrice" talking to Battler.
Battler talk to this "Beatrice" about his favorite kind of girl and joke around in english.

Different scene, George remember about 6+ years ago, how he was jealous of Battler and we see a scene of Battler and Shannon talking and laughing together.

Different scene, Battler talks about how he was shy as a kid and how he lied to the girl he liked saying he liked a different kind of girl.

Now episode 3: Battler states CLEARLY that Shannon was his first love.
Shannon also states CLEARLY that he used to joke around in english with her all the time and that he promised to come back for her on a white horse.

Episode 4: "Beatrice" talks to about how Battler used to talk in english and how his favorite kind of girls is blond and busty.

NOW I WONDER WHO THAT BEATRICE BATTLER TALKED TO IN EPISODE 6 COULD BE.

>>5720505
There are more clues for Kanon to be Beatrice. It seems that the detective only sees Beatrice on the gameboard after Shannon has died and Kanon goes missing.

>>5720322
I wanted to have some opinions before posting it. However ok, let me revise one thing, then I rehost and post it

>>No, many crazy people manage to live without people realizing it.
Not when you are talking about people who are close to you.
Not when your DID involve crossdressing. Sorry.
And in umineko, it is clearly not possible..
(And by the way, make-up and all of this... like if Shkannon would always allow this kind of things. not enough time.)

>>5719615
THIS. Also, I hope there's a mastermind behind Shkanon. I want a moustache-twirling villain.

>>5720529
Kanon = Shannon = Beatrice
They are all the sameshit.
I will go 1step further and I predict that the black witch at the end of ep3 is one of them as well.
Something happened at ep3 triggered her dark personality.

>>5720523
>Different scene, Battler talks about how he was shy as a kid and how he lied to the girl he liked saying he liked a different kind of girl.

When did this ever happen? I don't remember this from EP6 or any other game.

>>5720523

..ah fuck.

"You will become the Golden With Beatrice, and become the girl that he likes for me, we will be separate beings but we will see each other etc etc etc. "

I am going to fucking rage if Shannon is just DIDing Beato.

>>5720529
And to me, ep6 slightly go this way.
Well, Kanon being the golden witch who "bless all lovers" would be quite ironical

>>5720541
For the make-up, it was just an example, you are most likely a guy after all.

My point is that it's MUCH, MUCH easier to create a new "character" than to disguise as someone else convincingly.

People talk about how Ep7 will solve everything, but isn't there a Ep8?

>>5720311
>Bern's letter
>To my beloved friend
>Featherine
I don't think so

>>5720566
We don't know Ryu said it might end at 7.

>>5720523
You missef the first sentence of this post.
But yeah, please continue to read only the things that don't disturb you.

>>5720408
Shkanon is the most obvious way to see it and people dislike thinking much. I believe the mastermind is Jessica or Natsuhi. The culprit is really peculiar about references to the ocult. Mostly because Maria can recognise these references. Well... When our Jessie gave her mother the scorpion amulet it was placed on the door knob from the inside. Who the fuck whould know there is a magical amulet on the inside of the door besides those too? As a somewhat stupidier theory but im saying anyway, I dont believe that hair color of Natsuhi is coincidence... Maybe she is a red head and for some reason is dyeing it to protect her family´s honor... what could that reason be I wonder I wonder?

>>5720571
Frankly speaking an Inception end will be better than a Shkanon end.

>>5720578
No. He said that it could at ep7, or ep9, or more.

>>5720580
Please forgive those hasty mispellings.

>>5720587
Which means that he still said that it could possibly end at 7.

>>5720578
>>5720587

Shiiiiit. Seriously? I... don't know what to say.

>>5720599
No problem. I'm just tired of people who are saying that it will end at ep7 for sur. He also said that ep8 could be an omake, be he used COULD. Apparently when he was this this interview he was not sure himself about the number of episodes.

>>5720580
Hmm... These thoughs need a little polishing but they indeed raise suspicious questions. And that Natuhi thing... i dont know what so say.

Ep7 won't be the last because of shitty cover.

From ep6-ep7 interview

>Will EP7 end the series?
Who knows? Seven is a lucky number (laughs), and EP8 might become an omake episode, like an "Umineko no Naku Koro ni Rei". (laughs again)
However, I think we will be giving out an extremely merciless answer in EP7.

And for ep6 interview:

Ryuukishi, jokingly, said that he might even end with EP6...but he also said that ending on either EP7 or EP9 would even be possible as well. In other words, "no comment"

>>5720599
He still said too that could end at 6...

>>5720580
The culprit entered the room, saw the charm on the knob and to maintain the illusion of MAGIC decided to make it look like the witch was repelled by the charm.

I don't have a good screenshot for this, but I'd like to ask.
I just recently started reading this and I'm only on chp3 now. But is it ever stated what the definition of "human" and "people" is? My point is many arguments come back to this "X amount of people/humans on the island" but I haven't come across a place where they define who is "human" and who counts in this total. So what about furniture?
Do Shanon, Kanon, and Genji count toward this total? What about all of Beatrice's furniture that kills people (the 7 sisters of purgatory)? Because technically they appear on the island to kill people and are left as stakes for the 5th-9th twilights. (or is that all considered "fantasy"?)

Or perhaps Battler considers acknowledging the existence of furniture is under the definition of acknowledging witches?

Do any of the later chapters go into this? Or did I miss something that already come up perhaps?

>>5720651
No. And Battler is too retarded to ask.

>>5720651
Redtext can be used with a loophole.

In Ep6, just look at how Battler used them. He can basically say Statement X, and as long as he can proof Statement X can be done it will be RED.
Basically, 18human = correct, 17human = correct since both condition can be satisfied.

>>5720670
Where's a facepalm reaction image when I need one?

>>5720712
>I am the visitor, the 18th human on Rokkenjima!!
True either treating Kinzo as the 18th or Kanon/Shannon separately.
>There are 17 people.
True by counting Shannon/Kanon as one.

Do you see the red loophole now?

>>5720737
The facepalm was for not reading the part of the post where he said he was still in EP3, moron.

>>5720253
As I told you here it is my theory without ShKanontrice. It is long, but if you wanna understand it you have to read it all, reading just the first three lines won't lead you to anything. Here's the link:
http://www.mediafire.com/?b88547c47zwb1le

>>5720737
If the first was true, it should have hit B&B, but it didn't. Therefore it missed, therefore it isn't true.

>>5720753
>Do any of the later chapters go into this?
Are you stupid?
He is asking specifically if the later eps define this?
I guess some people are too stupid to red the whole post.

>>5720762
>when I speak the truth, I will use red.
>Everything I speak in red is the truth

I just have one question: Who the fuck is the Kinzo that appeared in EP4?

>>5720781
No Kinzo appeared in EP4. They were just all lying.

>>5720781

they apparently brought his dead body in

>>5720820

Or they heard his voice via the gramophone, like in And Then There Were None.

>>5720795
Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't it said in red that "Kinzo" appeared in front of the relatives?

>>5720781
Could it be Genji?

>>5720830
Well, they recognized "what appeared" as Kinzo. It could be his body

>>5720775
The red is not valid and can't be used unless accepted by GM.

>>5720842
Well, he died only a few moments later, so I doubt it.

>>5720830
they recognized the existence of Kinzo. So either they recognized his corpse, either someone else took this name.

>>5720857
Or they just watched a video of him, simply.
Sometime the simplest explanation is the best.

>>5720820
That would be so disgusting. A corpse that is 2 years old is in a pretty poor condition.

Hold on, does anybody remember the martial art George uses?

>>5720795
No, the red says:
All of those who met at the family conference recognized the existence of Kinzo!

I'll just ask this here.

I wanna get into Umineko but I can't seem to find a download for the episodes. I Found The Witch Hunt Project though.

I know I'm being a douche but a link would be most helpful.

>>5720907
Torrent

>>5720758
To be honest, I don't like the part where she and Shannon exchange costumes in the past. I don't know, I don't think there are any hints in the game for anything like this. Not to mention that if you're intending for this girl to be Caucasian, then there's not way she could pass for an Asian girl like Shannon.

That, and the whole Lambdadelta deal. If I were you, I'd take that out of the theory, and explain it purely with humans.

>>5720907
We all bought the original sound novel obviously :-)

>>5720912
Can't find one in Tokyo Toshokan.
Will i get them all if i get the latest one only or..?

I always wondered this, but why doesn't Ryu draw covers for Umineko, like he did for Higurashi? Instead of just putting character sprites, I mean.

>>5720907
There's a reason umineko is the best seller at himeyashop.

>>5720929
EP4 contains all previous episodes.

So what the fuck is Kuwadorian for?

>>5720938
Thank you, kind anon

>>5720944
No idea, but Krauss knows it exists and its name.

>>5720944
For people to live in.

>>5720929
http://www.nyaatorrents.org/?page=torrentinfo&tid=67105
EP4 here. I didn't download this one, but I think it's good.

>>5720921

Couldn't read that without laughing. Sorry I ruined your joke.

>>5720918
Yes, I know, but solving EP4 just with humans it's almost impossible, it does not make sense at all, it seems almost as if everyone put themselves against Battler for making him believe in Shannon and Kanon together, Kinzo and magic.
As it regard the exchange, the hints are that six years ago Battler and Shannon were really close and we know Battler made a promise to Beatrice. If there is a human Beatrice it has to be like that.
However I don't trust in my theory too much, especially for the magic part. Butwithstanding, I think that something true there must be.

>>5720921
I know you're providing a good discussion to the thread but, please, refrain from using emoticons here. This isn't a forum.

>>5720982
Are you an idiot?

>>5720929
episodes 1-4 are packaged together here
http://soraz-yumenokaze.blogspot.com/2009/02/umineko-no-naku-koro-ni-english-patch.html

i dunno about 5 and 6 though

>>5720967
EP 6 (it also includes EP5)
http://foro-higurashi.mejorforo.net/descargas-f9/umineko-ep6-dd-mu-t1287.htm

The site is in spanish, but whatever.

What ever happened to the second secret mansion, and the person (woman?) that used to live there? Was it ever elaborated on? I always assumed that the daughter of that woamn would be Beato, but it's been a while since I read that episode, and it hasn't been mentioned since (which makes it all the more suspicious).

Also, I always assumed that Kanon never existed in the first place, and was just an illusion (furniture created by Beato), rather than it being DID. Is there anything contradicting such a theory?

>>5720979
EP4 may be difficult, but EP6 made it clear that in the real world, magic as in miracles/superpowers and the like do not exist. In other words, EP6 tells us "Humans or GTFO". So, we need human means.

As for the whole deal in the past, wouldn't it be far easier to think Shannon is Beatrice?

then who was culprit part 2

>>5721038
He didn't die.

>>5721024
I'm a little teapot. Short and stout. Here is my handle. Here is my spout. When I get all steamed up. Hear me shout: Tip me over and pour me out.

>>5721038
The Beatrice in Shannon/Kanon's head.

>>5720982
As you want.

>>5720918
Ah, I forgot to say one thing: as it regard the Lambdadelta deal... I know it does not make very much sense, but please re-read EP3 Tea Party after Bern leaves. I don't find many other possible explanation.

>>5721038

No one killed Kanon.

>>5721053
THAT EXPLAINS NOTHING! Or does it?!?

Also, I still have no idea how the hell R7's going to explain the gold. Nor do I know what's with Erika being dead in TIPS (maybe I missed something while reading).

>>5721055

Lambdadelta has to represent a real person.

Given that all the mothers except Rosa have been associated with CERTAINTY at one time or another, she could be any of them.

Oh, if Erika was dead upon arrival to the Island, then the "17 people" wouldn't include her, and thus allow for Beato, assuming Kanon doesn't exist?

>>5721106
You'd have to get around EP6's "Everyone else is in the other room," for that to be possible.

>>5721038
'Survivors' and 'dead' refers only to those, who Battler sees as such. (See: next red about Natsuhi's death). And the second sentence is the conclusion of the first, see 'in short' (therefore/in other words/etc). Therefore, he could have been killed by the one who faked his/her death earlier.

>>5721078
She represents CONCEPT of the hard work to achieve your goal. Beatrice wanted and worked hard to become what she is. There you have it.

>>5721024
In my theory there are two "secret" mansions: one is Kuwadorian, where Kinzo's lover and rosaBeatrice lived and then died. Before dying she gave birth to a daughter that did not live in Kuwadorian (since it was not a secure place anymore, after rosaBeatrice's death/disappearing), but in another mansion after the surveillance of many servants, as shown at the beginning of EP3. This other mansion is in Niijima probably, in fact I remember saying that Kinzo leaves the island for many days and then suddenly comes back.

>>5721027
Yes, in fact all the homicides are explained by human being. It is never said that is not allowed a connection between human and metaworld. In Higurashi there was one.

>>5721078
I think this is impossible. Lambdadelta is the one who allowed her to be a witch.

>>5721062
"No one could have possibly killed Kanon."
You cannot kill a person only when he is already dead.

>>5721024
I don't think the mansion was used anymore after Beatrice died. Remember the guy who used to deliver the supplies via boat going on about how he was told to stop one day?

>>5721170
I mean first two and third, of course.

>>5721155
Wasn't it clearly stated by Erika at some point that the "Everyone else" referred to everyone else that they knew about, or some kind of bullshit like that? I'm pretty sure the definition that R7 (indirectly) explained was really slippery.

>>5720624
does anyone have the same picture like this, except with portraits?

>>5721247
No, in fact, Erika used the "Everyone else" precisely to avoid a possible Unknown Person X.

>>5720781

That was one of Beatrice's illusions. As for what people really saw, either the other siblings accepted the premise that Kinzo was still alive, or as someone else noted, a recording of him was played.

playing though EP4 now
apparently in this universe CCS aired before 1986.......

it really is full of magic.

>>5721305
I'm talking about AFTER that, though, at the very end. She tried to use some "double name" bullshit or something to try to get another person past the "everyone else". I didn't really follow it properly myself, but it gave me the impression that the whole "everyone else" had plenty of potential holes in it.

>>5721341
Everything has potential plot holes in when it's written by Ryu.

Did anyone manage to figure out what the "secret" was that Rudolf wanted to tell Kyrie and Battler? Probably concerning the whole double-battler rock-tossed baby ordeal?

>>5721370
I assume that he was going to tell Battler that Asumu wasn't his real mother.

>>5721337
Battler played Higurashi. Lambda in progress.
In anime Maria watches dvd extras of Higurashi on the TV.

>>5721341
She used the whole "double names" in the cousins room - i.e. the one: Hideyoshi, George, Shannon, Kumazawa and Nanjo were in, because it was said in Red that Kanon was the one who saved Battler and the other room (the "everyone else room") was a perfectly closed room.

>Also, I still have no idea how the hell R7's going to explain the gold.

Kinzo had WWII connections. The eagle on the gold was minted with a partially obscured and reversed Nazi mold. As for how he got the gold, he may have had someone help him get a stockpile of gold that was being smuggled out of Germany towards the end of the war, perhaps by ODESSA. http://www.independent.co.uk/news/fourth-reich-plot-revealed-1362082.html

As for Erika being dead, if her existence was denied in red at the end of Episode VI, then her presence on the game board itself is a fantasy. As she represents Truth, and fights against witches, this is, for her, a gigantic contradiction.

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>>5721488
ohshi-

>>5721488
I'd think that Beatrice would have to have some kind of connection to the gold, though. It'd be kinda dumb if they were completely unlreated, considering how often Beato is associated with the damn stuff.

>>5721545

It'd be a terrifying twist if she were a blonde-haired, busty German lady Kinzo hid so she wouldn't be tried for war crimes

>>5721337
Ange looks so ugly in that uniform.

>>5721591
Beatrice is actually Eva Braun.

>>5721591
That...

That wold work in my books. Probably the most goddamn reasonable explaination possible, all things considered.

>>5721488
Silly Kinzo ought to have given German names to his children.

But, giving it another thought, Battler would have ended up as Kampfer, or something like that.

so what, you will NEVER be japanese!!

never!!

never ever!!

>>5721775

Yeah, for that theory to work they'd have German names like Krauss, Rudolph, Eva, Rosa, and - SHIT JUST GOT REAL

>>5721824
but still not enough real to be japanese

>The eagle on the gold was minted with a partially obscured and reversed Nazi mold.

FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF

>>5721685
Moth-loli, you know.

>>5721824
I still say this story would make much more sense if they set it on some island in the Mediterranean and just made the cast European. This whole Japanese-people-with-western-names is silly IMO.

>>5721912
Kinzo needed these names for the epitaph to work.

>>5721198
In fact I'm not referring to Kuwadorian.

However, metaBeatrice said she suicided and she is probably referring to Kinzo's lover. Why would sha have to suicide?

>>5721412

It's a joke

Ep VI Lambda clearly speaks of Higurashi as a "real" game.

what do touhous taste like?

>>5721488
>>5721824

Oh shit, did we just find a truth?

>>5721866
Thanks for this, I like to study those scripts. Looks like a script that post randomly on 4chan.

>>5722006
It's not guaranteed that it was what you think it was.

>>5722135

Oh, please.

They even talk about a "Game Board" in Higurashi novels...Lambda mentions Takano in her diary, the GM that didn't play (Hanyuu), what else do you need?
Bern screaming "Higurashiiiiiiiii?"

>>5721488

R07 did a historic correlation in Higurashi too, so i'd be surprised.

It definitely fits, i wounder if you can gain more truth from this...

>>5722164
She didn't mention 'Takano'. Just a human, whose wish she granted.

>>5722356
A girl who wanted to become God. Even if she didn't say Takano, it's a HUGE coincidence.

>>5722203
I suggest Kinzo killed Beatrice 1, whoever she was, and stole her gold. Maybe they smuggled it both together and he simply got greedy.

As in Ep4, he took the test to gain two by sacrificing one. He lived, he saved the family from ruin and Beatrice 1 was never seen by anybody again.

Further to that, the Beatrice he's shown obsessing over was the second Beatrice, who lived in Kuwadorian and was killed by Rosa, as that's the Beatrice in the portrait.

>>5722356

This

It completely fits Takano character and story.

>>5722402
How can it be?
Portrait: around 1984
Beatrice: around 1967
And... why blond hair, blu eyes and big breast just as Battler's bgf?

>>5722372
Because Ryu made it intentionally, but it doesn't mean that they are connected.

One of my big questions concerns the Knox rules. The TIPS file suggests they are not ironclad, and that geniuses have been known to violate them. If Ryukishi doesn't mind violating Knox's 1st, then this idea could work.

In episode five, the culprit is Natsuhi's avenging step-son, originally the son of Rudolf's first wife Asumu. If that is in fact Juuza Amakusa, then he becomes a viable Big Bad. We know that Asumu died "under mysterious circumstances" and that Battler was so angry with his father that he split away from the family from a time. If Asumu was murdered, then Amakusa would be livid. In addition to his mother's murder, he was excluded from the Ushiromiya family and never included in the discussions for splitting up the inheritance, therefore he has a strong desire to take revenge on all of them. This also explains why he chose to kill Ange.


All of the above is just a guess, and it's possible (even likely) that Amakusa was in collusion with others in the family.

>>5722689
>In episode five, the culprit is Natsuhi's avenging step-son, originally the son of Rudolf's first wife Asumu.

Rudoplh's son was born 18 years ago. The deal with Natsuhi and the kid took place 19 years ago.

>>5722731

Ahh, that's right. Thanks.

>>5722556
I find this difficult to justify but I'll try.

Rosa stated the Beatrice she saw looked just like the one in the portrait. Of course Rosa's recollection is questionable and cannot be taken as guaranteed.

There is a second Beatrice portrait in Kinzo's room. Nobody notes (that I remember) when it was put up. Apparently nobody but the servants were allowed in the room until Kinzo's death. Is it possible that the portrait was not painted in 1984, but much earlier, and was only placed in the hallway in that year? This would allow Beatrice, who saw it earlier, to base herself on the portrait in accordance with Battler's ideal.

>>5722774
It may be, but it doesn't lead anywhere.