/jp/ - Otaku Culture

Chaotic troll.

Random question, do Bern's and Lambda's logic errors have anything to do with Higurashi?

>>5703694
Ask the author

>>5703694
I'd imagine the 'logic error' had something to do with K1 remembering events from another Kakera and altering his behavior.

Most likely Chaotic Neutral. One thing about them is that they're not exactly on either side and no one for sure knows what they're going to do next (Lambda helping her enemies or screwing them over).

I think Lambda startles the line between True Neutral and Chaotic Neutral.

She helps those who help themselves. Her "mirage coordinator" moment with Ange was less against Ange and more the fact Ange was Bern's piece and that she was reveling her true intentions to Ange.

Lambda is definitely a wild card. She hast;t turned out what t be what I excepted at all.

I'm gonna go out on a limb and say Chaotic Good.

She puts on a show for Bern, probably to keep Bern from realizing that pretty much everything she's said or done helped Battler and Beatrice in some way.

>>5703708
The "logic error" had something to do with the deaths of all characters. The solution was Takano.

>>5703815

Of course, her intention was to use Ange to keep everyone trapped there. She was hardly trying to help.

>>5703678

No, that's Bern.

I'd say True Neutral or Chaotic Neutral, depending on your perspective.

>>5703843

That would be a twist, and a real reversal of what we all expected from Bern (HUR Chaotic Good/True Neutral) and Lambda.

It also wouldn't contradict anything we know concerning her love for Bern and desire to trap her. She enjoys trolling Bern as much as bathing her in chocolate.

Chaotic Neutral

she is a secret Chaotic evil, shes hiding her power lv.

>>5703926
yeah, i think she is too, there are some parts with her that show that shes not what she seems, even bern is afraid of her.

>>5703843

This actually sounds about right.

The only matter of dispute is her threatening Beatrice, but that could be interpreted as saying "do the job right", too.

As long as Battler and Beato have been able to keep themselves afloat, she's been giving them pushes in the right direction. (stopping Beato from leaving before Battler figured things out, warning Battler away from hazards, offering words of encouragement, acting as a fair judge, etc., all while seemingly having a good idea as to what was going on; she appears to be looking to help Bern in the long run, too)

>>5703694
I've been thinking that since Ep 5. What if Umineko actually have connections with Higurashi? Somehow that'd explain a couple of things, like what exactly was happening in Higurashi and why in Matsuribayashi Rika kept calling all the thing a game with pieces and shit.

Actually for some reason things are getting clearer. OMG

>>5704008
Damn you're onto something there holy shit

>>5704008
So, armed with this clarity, how do you intend to solve the Rokkenjima case?

>>5704033
I'm actually thinking about Higurashi and Umineko being connected right now but with the evidence that has been showed some things point out Shkanon, a stupid theory if you ask me, so I'm still thinking shit to find out another possibility, taking into account Shkanon can't solve everything

>>5704033
Obviously, with brain parasites.

>>5704058
Every crime can be solved without Shkannon being necessary. The trick is linking the various games together.

But then again, Shkannon has plenty of absurd leaps of logic of its own to overcome to be taken seriously.

Bored neutral.

>>5703997

What makes you think her end goal is helping Bern? She may love her, but her love tilts more to the yandere side.

She admitted to Ange that she was seeking to trap Bern in a kakara so she could have her all to herself. I think she was telling the truth.

>>5704106

I mean actually helping her. As in helping her get over her chaotic evilness.

"alignment" is the stupidest fucking shit ever

Morality is grey, everyone is either doing what they think is right or else feeling bad about whatever it is that they are doing, your world views are shaped by your life experiences, blah blah blah sage this shit

>>5704125

Make Bern "see love" as it will.

Should be interesting since now Bern is Game Master and seeks to create a game completely devoid of love.

>>5704087
Let Shkanon burn in hell!

>>5704125

And I say that because pretty much everything else she's done has been helpful, and her position towards her is sympathetic, rather than straight perverted as is normal with evil obsessions.

"You know how you create a good bully? You take someone who's been bullied, give them power, and convince them that they're still being bullied. As someone who's gone through the same hell that she has, I want to be the one that understands her."

Of course, that first bit can apply to Erika, but I think that it was directed at Bern, too.

>>5704154

Indeed. I thought she was talking about Bern as well.

Bern reforming though would take a "miracle" that could only be bought about by "absolute certainty". So by getting Bern involved in a mystery that can only be solved though love...

Huh. There's a thought.

>>5704154

I thought so too.

Does it matter?

When it comes down to it, the Meta-World isn't real.

Bern has no more control over the fact that a crazy maid killed 15 people than Lambda did.

All this is largely irrelevant, unless somehow the people can be saved.

>>5704287
Lacking love, etc...

>>5704314
Love is what prompted Sayo to kill a bunch of people. Love is why Kyrie would have killed Asumu.

Love is poppy-cock.

>>5704087

I really want to see people do this. But every fucking time I'm left wanting.

>>5704374
I hate Shkanontrice, but to deny it you have to pretty much ignore all of episode 6.

>>5704232

Bern, listen.

I will seal you in this kakara, though your own pride at being unable to accept a loss. So that you may hurt no one else.

You may now hold the game board though the manipulation of that monster, Featherine, but I hold the trump card.

Battler and Beato will never give up. You will never make them surrender. I guarantee it on my name as the Witch of Certainty. No matter how much you twist this story, you will not win.

Beloved~, you will not leave until you rediscover love.

>>5704374
Tonight isn't a good night for me, but I do have a mostly done theory regarding Episode 4 I threw together after anonymous challenged me to do so.

I can toss that up here for now if you like, but other episodes will have to wait a few days.

Sure, why not? Go for it.

>>5704287
How about the meta world only being not real too the humans in the end, it doesn't mean bern and 34 aren't real in the meta world, think of it as heaven some people believe in it, others don't. no one knows if its real or not.

Alright, here we go. Bear in mind that, while Episode 4 didn't play the 'closed room' card too heavily, there are only two possible scenarios for a closed room to work: The illusion of a closed room, or the illusion of a crime. Also bear in mind that while I don't support Shkannon, I DO believe that Shannon is 'Beatrice'. Let's begin.

First Twilight: Upon announcing Kinzo's arrival, Kanon enters the room with Kinzo's body on a pushcart or some apparatus. During the commotion this causes, he and Shannon pick up the guns that were also on the cart, and shoot 6 people somewhat randomly. Shannon targets Eva and Hideyoshi because they are an obstacle between her and George, Kanon targets Natsuhi and Genji for grudges of his own. Rosa for her abuse of Beatrice's friend Maria, and Rudolph either just got unlucky or maybe he was killed to keep him from blabbing about whatever it is he knows.

Gohda and Kumasawa are sent to the guesthouse to spin a fantastic tale about demons and witches being summoned by Kinzo, and are kept in check by the fact that they were told that one of the cousins is working with Kanon and Shannon.

The surviving family members (Krauss and Kyrie) are herded someplace fairly easy to keep them under control. Nanjo joins up with Shannon's side (since he was working with them anyway, as seen in other games. We know his grandchild is seriously ill and he's desperate for money.), and the first phone call is made. Speakers are rotated, and a careful watch is kept to prevent anyone from acting up. Gohda and Kumasawa are locked in the storage shed.

>>5704495
Shannon's plan (or rather, Beatrice's) to execute Kinzo's will begins. Jessica (the mole in the cousin's group since she normally works with Kanon anyway) is called out first and joins with them. Around this time, Shannon or Kanon heads over to the storage shed to deal with Gohda and Kumasawa.

Now remember the rule of closed rooms. Gohda and Kumasawa are certainly killed, so the trick here must be that it isn't a closed room. Either A) The ropes they 'hung' themselves with were part of an attempt to fake their own deaths, possibly on orders, and they were shot through the open window. The impact of the bullets turned them away from the window... or B) there was another key to the storage shed. The killer simply let him or herself in, told them to set the ropes up like that, and then shot them, locking up afterwards.

I'll go with B. Less tricky geometry. While they are out there, Genji's set of keys is left in front of the chapel. And the mansion is thoroughly locked up on the way back in, shutters closed etc.

Now then. George is called out next. Jessica takes a gun and goes to meet him at the arbor. Kanon and the rest keep watch over the prisoners, but due to some carelessness during the phone transferal, Krauss sees a chance to overpower Kanon and takes his gun. Kanon is killed. Krauss tries to flee, but Shannon pursues him, disarming him and killing him as he tries to open the back door. Nanjo keeps Kyrie in check.

Jessica's testing of George goes badly, and after George tries to fight back she shoots him dead. She returns to find Kanon and her father dead, and Shannon less than pleased that she killed George. After a confrontation, Jessica is disarmed, and Shannon forces Jessica into her own bedroom.

>>5704499
Jessica is forced to make her phone call. I'm assuming Jessica declined to take the test in the first place, but if she did take it, it was probably right before the call. She fails, and Shannon kills her. She goes back down to the room Kyrie is being kept in, and forces her to make her own final phone call, on the threat that if she doesn't genuinely try to make Battler believe what she is saying, he'll be killed like the rest. Kyrie is killed.

Shannon tells Nanjo to toss Kinzo into the boiler while she calls the guest house again. Maria picks up. Using her Beatrice persona, Shannon calls Maria over to the mansion, and then speaks to Battler, telling him to come take his test. Battler wastes time checking on Gohda and Kumasawa, and finding George.

Maria enters the mansion, and is met by Shannon who has changed into her Beatrice suit and wig. Beatrice leads her to the dining room where the first six died, tests her, and afterwards gives her a pill to help her 'sleep' while she 'plays dead like the others'. It should be noted that even though Kinzo stated Maria passed in the magic scene a bit after this, she was killed anyway. So chances are she actually failed.

Battler arrives at the front of the mansion. Beatrice meets him on the balcony and questions him. The test is mostly ignored since Battler won't admit to having feelings for any particular person. Instead, Beatrice tries to get him to remember his 'sin'. After he fails to remember his sin and blows her off, she tells him to look for Maria in the chapel, and heads back in.

>>5704503
While Battler is wasting his time trying every key on the loop at the chapel door, Shannon changes back into her maid uniform. She grabs a heavy object and a length of rope from the boiler room. She then orders Nanjo to carry Kanon's body outside and leads him to the old well in the back. The body is hidden, and then she shoots him. Along the way, she staked Kyrie and Krauss.

She then ties one end of the rope to her stone (or whatever equivalent she grabbed), the other to the stock of her gun, and lowers the stone into the well. She also drops any additional guns (like the one Jessica had used) into the well. She then lies a stake near Nanjo to be consistent, and sets one on the ground near her own head, as she lay down. She shoots herself, and the stone pulls the gun she used down into the well where Battler can never find it.

Battler searches around and finds all the bodies but Kanon's, but never finds any weapons since they have been taken from his reach, and the culprits are all dead.

At midnight of the second day, Battler dies when the mansion explodes.

Aaand there you go. Best I can come up with, not counting rationalizing everyone's motives and explaining all the backgrounds. Once I have the time, I'll do the rest of the episodes in order.

>>5704517
You forgot that Kanon and Shannon are the same person.

>>5704530

>>5704530

WRONG.

>>5704517
>>5704503
>>5704499
>>5704495


The theory works, but I'll remind you that pretty much any culprit theory can work with Episode 4, becuase of how confusing it is, and how little Red Text we really have for it.

Then you need to make it work with the other arcs (apparently with only Shannon and Kanon as the killers) and explain episode 6's Closed Room. Good luck.

>>5704541
It's true. That's a kind of theory that someone could make with just episode 4, ignoring the evidence that came afterwards. Shannon is obviously Kanon, if you don't get that just keep reading episode 6 until you do. So no matter how much effort is put into a theory, it isn't the truth if it doesn't account for this.

>>5704583

I swear to fucking God, what is with all you Shakanonfags? Nobody can seem to have a discussion without you shitting it up. YES SHAKANON IS A VIABLE THEORY. But it's only one of many.

Why can you faggots understand that not every theory has to factor Shakanon or Shakanontrice into it?

GOD.

>>5704610
Only it's not a theory, it's a truth. Explain the duel in episode 6 without Shkanon.

>>5704575
Well, regardless of the game, I've narrowed the list of possible killers down to Shannon and Kanon, Jessica, and Nanjo. There are a few one timers in Episode 3 since the killers group was broken up by an inside job (Nanjo).

And Episode 4 isn't as easy to explain as you think. Creating a plausible scenario for the last person other than Battler dying pretty much requires Maria to be hiding their suicide weapon and then killing herself. Shannon and Nanjo are the only ones in a position where I could create a suicide scheme which required no assistance and left no evidence. And Nanjo's motive is pretty much pure greed/desperation. He's not going to kill himself.

>>5704396

>>5704610

Because nobody actually has a valid theory.

Maybe you have one that actually explains Episodes 1-4.

But will it work with the foreshadowing we get in Episode 6?

Will it solve that games' Closed Room?

if not, then just shut the fuck up.

Denying Shkannon is like reading Tsumihoroboshi and trying to make a Mionculprit theory work. It's like you missed the point entirely.


Look, I don't like Shkannon, but I learned to work with the theory to make new, more complete theories.

Denying it solely comes from butthurt.

>Also bear in mind that while I don't support Shkannon, I DO believe that Shannon is 'Beatrice'.

It isn't about whether or not you 'support' ShKannon or 'believing that Shannon is Beatrice' at this point. Instead, it's you 'accepted ShKannontrice as a fact' or you 'ignore the fact of Shkannontrice stubbornly because it wasn't told to you in red yet'

Instead of trying to make eloquent solutions that you like, find the actual truth. You can't do that by ignoring important parts of it.

>>5704396

Actually sounds pretty likely.

And so the ShkShitters derail another thread. This guy can actually explain shit, instead of you who just say your ShkShit over and over and over and over and over.

Pretty sure you're just mad.

>>5704639

I will admit I'm butthurt. But not from the ShKanon theory. I'm butthurt by the fact that the supporters won't let anyone else formulate a theory that potentially solves the mystery without bringing the theory into it.

They're trying to construct ANOTHER viable theory. If you're going to pull the "read Ep.6" card, then I'll tell you something that's also from that game:

Most ShKanon and ShKanontrice supporters are like Erika. They see only one truth, and cannot accept there is any other viable truth.

>>5704396

I...like this. A lot. That would definitely be the ultimate act of both trolling and love that Lambda could give to Bern. Trapping her in a game she can't win, and giving her the gift of understanding love again.

>>5704706
So far I've yet to have anyone assault my theory that covers Ep 1, and I actually designed parts of it to intentionally be assaulted. Originally it involved Shkanon but, as the motivations became more bizarre as opposed to elaborate, I decided it was becoming burdensome.

The first twilight murderer being one or all of the people who weren't Shannon (Krauss let slip that Kinzo was dead, leading to chaos).
Eva and Hideyoshi are a variable murder (Maria becoming far too excited about the Epitaph or Shannon confronting Hideyoshi, who was confided about Kinzo's death by Genji during the first twilight cleanup).
Kanon fell victim to a trap set to protect Kinzo's corpse from being discovered. It was super effective!
Kumasawa Genji and Nanjo killing themselves in atonement/shame for the concealment of Kinzo's death (at Shannon's confrontation).
Finally Natsuhi asks Shannon to kill her for the same reason.
Then either a bomb Kinzo set goes off or the furnance, affected after Kinzo's partial burning, explodes.

The biggest unintentional gap in the theory is how a mortally wounded by not dead Shannon managed to get out of the storehouse. Anything else is either intentional or hypothetical.

>>5704630
There. Problem fucking solved. All that's left to explain is how Kanon got out of Battler's room after letting Battler out.

And that's easy too: He just quit his job. No job = Not Kanon. Yoshiya was hiding under the bed.

>>5704706
Anyone can come up with a "viable truth", framing anyone they like as the culprit. Actually, that's wrong. Your theory isn't viable because Shannon and Kanon are the same person, a theory where they are not the same person is not viable with episode 6 evidence. I take it you like to ignore all fantasy scenes though. Get over that fact, you'll be much more productive if you take Shkanontrice in mind and then try to construct a theory for all episodes that involves it.

>>5704847
And what does this solution have to do with the "heart" of Beatrice?

>>5704847
1. That is the cousins room, not some room we don't know much about that you can just make up stuff about at your leisure. We know plenty about it since Battler is there often in all episodes. There is no such second room inside it.
2. Even assuming it was a room we didn't know much about that you could conveniently shape in any way you like to fit your theory, this doesn't explain in the slightest the duel in episode 6 and why that duel was a hint to Beatrice for solving the room. Beatrice is supposed to look at Shannon taking in Kanon and Beatrice's incompete souls to hers to make a complete soul, to finally become a human that can love and not some sub-human thing, is a hint that says "the cousins room has a second room inside of it, and Kanon quit his job which made him no longer Kanon"? Haha, no. What the duel clearly says is pic related.

>>5704868
What the fuck are you talking about.

Beatrice is the master of closed room murders. And closed room murders are categorically impossible. Therefore, Beatrice can't exist.

Hence her red truth at the end of the game. SOMEone was denied. Either she proved Shkannontrice with the red, and thus allowed Erika to exist on the island, or she DISPROVED it, denying Erika, who arrived on the island as a corpse.

Did you think she won and lived happily ever after when the next chapter is her 'Requiem"? Her red destroyed herself. She's dead.

>>5704860

What evidence? Tell me, back up your words, instead of trying to shove the theory down everybody's throats.

>>5704939
Read episode 6 again. Keep Shkanontrice in mind. Actually tackle with the problems the white text presents, rather than tossing it all aside and focusing on 'viable' (ie, mathematically viable by the red, but thematically unviable) solutions. If that isn't enough, read it slowly, since you clearly missed something. If that isn't enough, take some reading comprehension lessons. If that isn't enough, give up, since you aren't going to solve anything.

>>5704900
Why is the concept of a room within a room so confounding. Christ, Kinzo built a house inside his house.

And the cousins room has space for at LEAST 4 people, plus plenty of room for games and the like. Is a partition so impossible? And what else were we shown the 'cups and coins' game at the start of the game for, if not as a hint at an alternate solution to this game? (And don't give me some shit about it hinting at Shkannontrice. You win the cups and coins puzzle by putting one of the cups inside another cup. You don't solve it by putting one of the coins inside another)

>>.5704847
That picture is your solution? Seriously? I have three guesses.

First guess, you haven't read episode 6, maybe even other episodes, you just looked at the red from the wiki and asked someone to explain the rooms to you.
Second guess, you've read it, but you're retarded so it didn't count for much.
Third guess, you've got a serious case of denial.

Maybe toss is fourth guess - you're trolling.

At least one of those is true.

>>5705001
Oh, the cups and coin riddle? You solve that by putting the three cups within each-other. That is to say, Shkanontrice. Just like with the cheese riddle you do what should be only possible with three cuts (three people) with one cut (one person).

Whoa whoa whoa

When are people going to start separating Shkannon from Shkannontrice?

Shkannon is kind of obvious. The whole episode reads like one long "you should be able to solve this" On the other hand, I haven't heard a damn thing to suggest that Shannon is Beatrice. People get so caught up fighting with deniers that they start acting like their culprit theory is just as obvious as the rest of it.

And it's annoying to see this in every thread.

>>5705001
Knox 8th, Knox's 8th. It is forbidden for the case to be resolved with clues that are not presented. Seriously, you realize this is the cousins room, right? I mean, stop being completely retarded, it's the fucking cousins room. Do you realize how much that this room in particular is featured in the game? Do you realize how many times Battler has been inside? How many scenes take place there? Go through the episodes and find evidence that the room is done in this retarded fashion that you thought up for your theory. The detective, Battler, should have seen it.

>>5704963

I do concentrate on the white text. One of the things that bother's me is that ShKanon (or ShKanontrice) completely derails six episodes of development for Shannon, Kanon, Jessica, and George.

Hell, if ShKanon is true, it leaves Jessica high and dry. Not only is it suspicious that she acts as if Kinzo is alive (there is no way she doesn't know or suspects) but how on EARTH can she not figure out that Shannon and Kanon are the same people? Shannon is her close friend, and Kanon is her love interest.

>>5705036

Jessica is the biggest moralfag on the island.

>>5705021
>I haven't heard a damn thing to suggest that Shannon is Beatrice
Pretty deaf there, bro. Where's that guy's copypasta when I need it?

>>5705046
Lots of theories, but I've yet to see anything that can't be rationally countered.

Plus it seems like way too many secrets locked inside one character. Too many solutions stuck in one big reveal, which happened to take place too early on in the series.

>>5705036
>how on EARTH can she not figure out that Shannon and Kanon are the same people?
She couldn't possibly that know. And that is one of the issues you should be tackling with. "Why does Jessica go along with this? Is it related to her actions in each episodes? Maybe related to her phone call in episode 4?" Doesn't your theory already have Jessica working with Shannon, the murderer?


Shkanontrice serves as the key to present these problems, and once you are able to explain these problems, you are much closer to the truth. So instead of going "welp, this is too hard to explain, I'll just ignore all of episode 6 and explain everything without it", tackle the issue. Despite your three post theory you've made, you're actually running away from the harder challenge, and the challenge that actually means something.

>>5705036
Well, Jessica doesn't really have to know. All someone needs to do is imitate his voice and frequently make a lot of yelled exclamations from within his study.

The number of people who have to know Kinzo is really out of business is Natsuhi, Krauss, Nanjo, and either Genji or Gohda or both.

>>5705042
What the hell does that have to do with anything.

And regardless, NOT ONE of you Shkannontrice fags have even attempted to TOUCH the fact that at some point or another, EVERY GODDAMN PERSON on the island is or becomes aware that there is SOMEthing wrong, but they LIE about it to Battler.

Hideyoshi and Nanjo and Jessica all lie about things related to Shannon and Kanon in Episode 1.

Rosa and Genji and Gohda, and I think Kumasawa all lie in Episode 2 about something or another relating to them.

In Episode 3, pretty much every single adult is actively lying about finding Shannon and Kanon's bodies.

Explain this, motherfuckers.

>>5705086
By "rationally countered" what you really mean is "stubbornly denied". There is plenty of evidence that suggests she's Beatrice. More than suggests, just as much as episode 6 shoves Shkanon in your face, it shoves Shkanontrice. It's no that you haven't seen evidence. It's that when you see evidence, you ignore it, turn your nose up at it and interpret it in ways more convenient to you, or squabble over details that have everyone guessing and use the fact that nobody supporting Shkanontrice has fully solved the mystery to deny it.

>>5705096
Jessica claimed he chased her around whacking her with a shinai at some point. And when asked about him, she gives no indication she hasn't actually seen him in over a year. She even comments on his mood, in a general way.

>>5705102
You want us to do the work for you just so you will accept this part of the truth, it's pathetic really.

Why don't you think about it yourself? The fact of the matter is nobody has reached THE truth. As in, a full explanation for everything. At least, if they have, nobody else agrees with them much, or they don't even realize they have the truth.

Take Rosa in episode 2. Something's up with her. Not only does she lie to Battler about this, she clearly lies to him saying Father is alive and Father confirmed that Shannon and Genji's alibis for the second twilight were true. Why does she do that? Are you going to take her doing that as evidence that Kinzo is alive, or what?

>>5705115
Ep6 does no such thing. Why don't you chill the fuck out and provide some of these ideas, rather than ranting about how "it's all so obvious guys"

I'm sorry for being retarded but it's been a while. Didn't Erika see both Kanon and Shannon both in the parlor in Ep5?

>>5705088

Tip: I'm not the Ep.4 theorist

I do try to do exactly what you say I should do. In fact I try and interpret the text pretty closely since I have a hard time with the more logic related Red Text closed rooms.

I dislike ShKanon, because I feel it's such a cheap cop-out, characterization-wise and mystery-wise. That doesn't mean I'm not willing to listen to the theorists.

As I've said before I want to hear multiple theory's other potential solutions. And I'm tired of ShKanon being spammed all over the board and butting into other people's theory's.

>>5705173
I'm an anti-Shkannontrice fag, but even I'm not using that as evidence. We never actually see the story from Erika's POV so even scenes with her in them can be cast into doubt.

>>5705169
No, episode 6 confirms Shkanontrice. I ask you again and again to try to explain the whole duel situation and why this is a hint to the closed room and why such a huge barrier exists between Shannon and Kanon both simultaneously finding love, why they need to trample over eachother, why they're incomplete souls, why Beatrice is also an incomplete soul who can't succeed in her love unless she takes in both Kanon and Shannon's souls, why her mother was somebody who wasn't Jessica, who loved Battler, all these things.

You don't explain them. You just ignore them. This is episode 6 showing you time and time again that Shkanontrice is true, but you just cover you ears with explanations like 'that's just an epic win troll wait until 7 when it's all denied' or 'magic scenes don't mean shit' or just refuse to engage with it entirely. I mean, come the fuck on. The only way this could be more obvious is if you were told in red, and I get the feeling even then you'd struggle to interpret that red in a way that says Shannon isn't Kanon and Beatrice, but Kanon is Kinzo and Shannon is Erika and so on.

>>5705183
You can't just deny something because you dislike it. Episode 6 hammers in into the skull, it's really true whether you like it or not. I don't know what you theorize for, but you've got less than a month to accept this and try to solve the rest with this in mind, because episode 7 is probably going to expose it even more obviously.

>>5705204
>No, episode 6 confirms Shkanontrice.

The only time this will be true is when it's stated in red.

Not before.

>>5705216

If that's the case and Ep.7 makes it obvious, then your right, I have no choice but to accept it. But for the time being, while Ep.6 has give ShKanon a ton of ammunition, there are still other potential theory's.

I theorize because I like the mental challenge, want to guess how the story plays out, want to know the truth, and because Ryukishi dared his reader's too.

>>5705229
Good luck with that. Are you still going to be ignoring the obvious when Umineko is completely over?

>Featherine talked about an answer session. Does this mean that you plan to show in >detail the answers behind the tricks and the culprit?

>Ryuukishi: About that. For example, in an online game, let's say that there's an ultra-rare item that you have to work really hard to obtain. If that item suddenly becomes easy to get in an update patch, you'd be annoyed and want to get all that wasted time back, wouldn't you? (laughs) In Umineko, if we show in detail how all the tricks work and who the culprit is, people who have reasoned it out and found their own answer will wonder 'What was the point of all my efforts figuring it out?!', so I'd like to create a slight gap between those who have reached the answer and those who haven't.

It's hilarious how this topic started out about Lambda and yet again has been derailed by arguing over Shkanon.

Srsly other stuff went on in Dawn ya know.

>Oh look, a Umineko thread that shouldn't dissolve into pointless ShKannonfags vs. Anti-ShKannonfags.
>Not even halfway down the page it becomes nothing but ShKannonfags vs. Anti-ShKannonfags

FFS, do you idiots not realize how pointless your bickering is? ShKannonfags aren't going to suddenly be swayed by Anti-ShKannonfag logic and vice versa. Stick to shitting on Theory threads.

To OP: If I remember straight, she talked about how she doesn't want either side to win. She wants both sides to remain stuck in limbo for all eternity so that Bern doesn't leave.

>>5705238

>people who have reasoned it out and found their own answer will wonder 'What was the point of all my efforts figuring it out?!'

... the ability to howl "I KNEW IT" at the top of their lungs like a mad ape?

>>5705236
If you want to know the truth, I advise you to at least try to theorize with Shkanontrice. Instead of pointing out its flaws to other people, try to explain those flaws to yourself with evidence from episodes 1-4. For instance, Beatrice couldn't be seen except by her 'mother' at first. In episode 2, when Beatrice first comes to Shannon, Shannon and Kanon are the only people who deal with her. With love, she's supposed to be able to be seen by other people.

>>5705257
R07 doesn't see it that way. He says it in this interview and he's said it in the past. He never actually wants to give the truth directly. He wants to make it so people who have the truth are sitting there nodding at each development, because to them, it's clearly confirming everything. But to someone who doesn't know the truth, or doesn't know it entirely, or knows of it, but refuses to accept it, he's not going to give you a wall of red text. He's only going to hint.

>>5705204
Not sure what parts of the duel and closed room scenarios you are referring to when you say you see evidence. Be more specific.

The fact that she joined in the contest is a good point. Though, I'm not sure I can remember a point where it was stated that she HAD to participate. All the scenes where it was stressed so heavily that "this duel is the only way" were pretty much just between Shannon and Kanon, and it seems like Beato kinda just fell in (and then promptly dropped out again) because it suited the flow of the narrative.

>>5705252

Lambda has turned into a real wild card after Ep.6. Even keeping in mind her desire to trap Bern, there is no need to be as helpful and impartial as she is.

>>5705285
At the end of the duel, Shannon still has to take in Beatrice's soul to become human as well. Likewise, if Beatrice won, she would have taken in Kanon and Shannon's souls. Zepar and Furfur tell her that. There's so much evidence in episode 6 that just picking out certain parts and showing them to you seems pointless when you've already read it, and all of it didn't convince you. Try the chapter 'The Duel of The Lovers', it deals with that question.

>>5705238

Although he's going to leave some things ambiguous, I doubt Shkanontrice is going to be one of them, given how important you people seem to think it is. Trust me, we'll be getting red either denying or confirming it next episode.

However, I think Ryukishi is an complete fucking floorshitting retard for refusing to answer everything clearly. That's half the point of mystery novels.

>>5705280

Again, this way of thinking is fucking stupid. It creates pretentious fucktards like Shkanonfags.

>>5705238

>if we show in detail how all the tricks work and who the culprit is, people who have reasoned it out and found their own answer will wonder 'What was the point of all my efforts figuring it out?!'

Other way around, you stupid fuck.

If they never have it completely confirmed whether they were right or wrong, then they'll be left wondering whether they really got it, and other people will continue to insist that they're wrong.

>>5705323
Or it creates denialfag like you which refuse the truth even when it is shoved down your head just because you hate how the story is going.

>>5705329

Also, I hope that somebody follows through on the inevitable death threats if he does that.

>>5705280
The problem is that we were doing that fine until EP6 -- the Taiwan theory, for example, was very well thought out -- but Shkannon has so many holes in it (despite the fact that it is almost certainly true) that it isn't fun to theorize anymore.

>>5705302
Ack, completely forgot the soul eating scene. Good point.
Though, this also seems like it could be written off as a narrative convenience, just so she could do the "Battler revelation" thing (seems like the only way to really learn something in this universe is to die and bring yourself back to life)
Still, not enough to dismiss the point. I'll need to think about it.

>>5705306
I actually agree with you. I don't LIKE his approach, but I'm also not too interested in saying "haha I told you so Shkanontrice is true" because I didn't think about it before episode 6 - nobody did - the term Shkanontrice originates from that time, and I see episode 6 as confirmation enough. So less than being a theory, I was just told that part of the truth in episode 6. Some people just didn't accept the hints as enough, that's how I see it. It's better than people arguing over forever, that's for sure.

I think this line of reasoning is enough, really:
-Shannon, Kanon and Beatrice are all incomplete humans, they possess incomplete souls
-The duel's purpose is to still Shannon, Kanon and Beatrice so they actually count as a full human, so they have a full soul and have the right to love
-The power the duel grants is the incomplete souls of the two losers
-Shannon or Kanon have to die on the fated day
-Beatrice calls Battler father
-Kanon and Shannon also call Battler father at one point together, referring to Father's sin
-The person who created Beatrice split her own soul. She realized that her soul would not be complete, nor would Beatrice's be, but she hoped they would be able to achieve more dreams.
-The person who created Beatrice wasn't Jessica. Battler refers to Jessica in a way which shows she isn't present when talking to the person.
-The situation seems to mirror the situation where George sees Shannon and Battler getting along so well earlier in the episode

>>5705335

I think arrogant elitists like you, who enjoy lording it over others are a lot worse that people like me, who refuse to accept retarded story elements, thanks.

>>5705341

God, I know, right? I wish Ep6 actually had confirmed it either way, so every thread wouldn't turn into this shit.

>I am giving you my love for Ushiromiya Battler.
>You must become the kind of woman Battler likes.

>Take the golden hair he likes.
>Take the blue eyes he likes.
>Take this personality that matches his.

>And then, ......you must love him in my place.
>And then, if possible, you must be loved by him.

I wonder what can this mean?

>>5705360

Shkanon makes narrative sense, yes, but it makes no logical sense.

That's my problem with it.

>>5705401
Well then, I see the challenge as finding out how it can make sense logically. It's not quite as black as white as "everyone's in on it" or "nobody noticed". Some people must know, it's plausible for some people to not notice. In certain episodes, the question you have to ask is either "how did Shkanontrice pull the deception of here" or "who is on Shkanontrice's side and why".

That's the big question no matter who you say the culprit is. There have to be quite a few accomplices, they need to have good reasons for it.

I see Shkanontrice like Kinzo's life/death status. Some people knew of it. Some people were tricked. It's harder to pull off than Kinzo's life/death status, but at the same time, it has an advantage because obviously the family cares more about Kinzo than a servant.

>>5705360
>-The person who created Beatrice wasn't Jessica. Battler refers to Jessica in a way which shows she isn't present when talking to the person.
Could someone describe when this happened, or what this is talking about?

I suspect it's one of those pain in the ass scenes where R07 doesn't give you any indication of who the subject is, and even though you get the idea that the scene is important, you can't process any of it because you're focusing all your energy on trying to figure out the context, and you start skimming, hoping that you'll figure it out before the scene ends...

Or maybe that only happens to me...

>>5705413
I actually see Shkanon as somehow connected to Kinzo's life/death status.
Kinzo probably died 2years ago and at the same time Shannon broke the mirror and made Kanon.
I just can't somehow make the connection between them and Kinzo sexually abusing Shannon sound too far fetched.

>>5705433
This is also in the 'Duel of the Two Lovers' chapter. Basically, it's something like

"A jessica type personality would be kinda nice"
Battler is talking to someone, that someone is Beatrice's 'mother'. Immediately following this is the passage about how Beatrice was created by her mother. Battler wouldn't say that to Jessica herself. He'd say a personality like "yours" rather than a "Jessica type" one.

>>5705433

>Could someone describe when this happened, or what this is talking about?

When Beatrice was remembering her reason for creation.

It showed Battler talking. He wanted someone that wasn't family oriented, someone that he could just mess around with and relax around. He listed Jessica as an example.

>>5705446
Beatrice does say that she was abused like that by Kinzo. It may have been that he was eventually able to 'see' Beatrice as Kanon and Shannon could, with love. I remember there's a scene where Kinzo is weeping about not being able to see her, but Beatrice is right behind him, and talks about how he can't see her because of the toxin. She may have been able to get him to see her, and this lead to him trying to use her as a substitute. Kinzo is supposed to have died from old age, but do we know this for sure? Shkanontrice actually might have had a hand in his death.

Hideyoshi is a useless character.

>>5705476
And so, Shannon decided the best way to not be family oriented was TO KILL HIS ENTIRE FUCKING FAMILY

Am I missing something here? Am I the only person who thinks that Battler being marked down for "sinning" simply because of a twelve's crush is a bit much?

I mean, hell, I'm sure episode 7 will show me Kinzo's rape doujin, but what the FUCK!

Shannon killed 15 people! Her best friend and fiance among them! And Battler just FORGIVES that because the little brat had her two day infatuation ruined?

Really, once again....

WHAT THE FUCK?

>>5705446
This is interesting...

I don't suppose anyone knows the timing of these things off hand? Kanon and Kinzo I mean. They both seem to be stated as two years ago, but I've got the impression that that information came early on, from one of the guests, George or Rosa or someone like that, who would probably measure that time with family conferences as the units. Meaning, "two conferences ago was the first time I met Kanon" or that Kanon had been there 2+ years.

Kinzo we know to have died after that conference two years ago, which would mean that the two events aren't related. And that's what I've been assuming (that the main reason that everyone ignores Shkanon is because originally, Kinzo thought it was a hilarious idea)

But it seems I have no evidence for assumption number 1. I wouldn't even know where in the books to start looking for something like that.

>>5705510
Well obviously there's more to it then what we know. Even Ange and Featherine commented on how strange it was.

>>5705510
6 years become 1000 years and yeah it's pretty fucked up.

"Hey Beato, this solution sounds pretty dumb. Won't the readers stop calling it a mystery"
"If they have love then it won't be stupid!"

>>5705532
Everyone assumes that 'Beatrice' is even the killer...

>>5705524
Kanon's been serving for 2+ years. Portrait's been up for 2 and a half years. Kinzo died <2 years ago.

>>5705532
Yes, how strange killing for revenge would be. They, unfortunately, didn't see much of a problem with the killing in and of itself.

Which is stupid. This act, this mass murder, is undeniably and concretely evil. I know her motive is related to love, but so what? That doesn't change the fact that she lied and killed innocent people, that she took her bullshit reality and pushed it on other people who had no desire for it.

Her relationships with everyone were a lie, everything she ever did was a lie. And what's worse, in Umineko, there are NOT kakeras, the blood is going to stick.

>>5705552
Shannon/Beatrice is mostly likely a pawn in all this, as the end of the ura tea party suggested. So really the true mastermind hasn't been revealed.

I'm still going with Kyrie as the final boss. EP 6 she elevated her suspicious meter again.

>>5705560

KYRIE IS ERIKA

ERIKA = KILLER in EP6

KYRIE = KILLER

>>5705524
I thought Kinzo might have liked Shkanon(trice), and this led to it generally being accepted. What he said went. I don't think it's be so unlikely that Kinzo acted very lively before he died. It doesn't seem like him to be in bed sickly for any amount of time, although that is majorly formed from the way his near-death status was presented when he was actually dead.

When Kinzo died, Shkanon might have preserved because Shkanon would be privy to the Kinzo's death secret. Thus, the two secrets might have been linked. Betraying one would mean betraying the other. We know the 'let's hide Kinzo's death' scheme was actually hatched after the initial shock of his death. It was too late to prevent Shkanon knowing at that point.

>>5705552
It's not actually revenge killing though. At least if Beatrice is the culprit, it can't be, it's in red. Beatrice might believe like Maria that somehow all these deaths can result in the golden land being opened and everyone being happy.

>>5705560
I dont know man.
Rosa seems more suspicious to me.
Maria seeing her as the black witch, Maria usually being one of the last few to die
Usually the most innocent character are the most suspicious.
Calm Before the Storm.

>>5705560
Yes, because obviously Kyrie has everything to gain from having everyone on the island die.

Yeah, I know, revenge, but it hasn't been shown that Kyrie has any relation with Beatrice, Shannon, or Kanon. So far she's just been OOH SPOOKY in fantasy scenes, but if there are no clues to suggest that she's been on the island to set shit up, we can't do jack.
There are only two people qualified to be a puppet master behind Shkanonbitch. Kinzo, and Jessica.

Kinzo is long dead before Sayo even finds out about Battler coming back on the island, which is more or less her gameplan, and Jessica is a moralfag.

This is Sayo's doing.

And I don't buy the 1000 years in 6 bullshit.

Jessica is pretty much a female version of Battler, and George was very much into Sayo. It's not like she didn't have any friends or support.

Beatrice's creator is hinted to like mystery novels.

I think that Kyrie is the only one that's been stated to be a fan.

>>5705510
I think it's hinted that Beatrice just has people fake a death for a game, but then someone there(the real culprit) takes advantage and starts killing people, including those faking their death. Also sometimes people go insane and start killing others in panic, such as Eva in episode 3 to Battler.

>>5705582
except despite being a total bitch Rosa is also shown to be on the same path Natsuhi is on (strict, sometimes horrible, but does care)

Kyrie doesn't have many redeeming traits about her on the other hand.

>>5705583
Except Jessica is pretty much going "this is fucking retarded" through all of EP 6 and now people that finally were able to read EP 6 understand that Jessica was being possessed in order to kill Kyrie, because she couldn't do it on her own.

>>5705581
I know it's not revenge killing, did you read what I wrote? Ange and the author had an issue with the motive being revenge, but not an issue with the killing being the killing in and of itself.

But as I said, it doesn't fucking matter. The act is still evil in and of itself. She still lies to her friends and betrays them. Her friends, who care for her, were no match. How could they suspect she'd kill them?

In the end, she's no better than anyone who believes in the ends justifying the means. Doubly so because her ends ARE FUCKING RETARDED.

>>5705583
>essica is pretty much a female version of Battler
Does this mean that not only does Jessica like her best friend to dress up as a boy and play pretend with her, she likes to lez it up with the Beatrice personality?

>>5705568
*beverage spit*

Oh fuck. Is Kyrie pronounced Kee-ree-ey, or Kah-ree-ey? If it's the latter, I am completely ashamed that I never noticed that connection before.

>>5705596

What if everyone faked their death the first game?

>>5705607
it's the former. check the anime if you want for confirmation.

>>5705607
キリエ

>>5705602
You say "except", we're on the same page here buddy. I said that Kinzo and Jessica could be the only two reasonable masterminds, but for various reasons, they also can't be. Like you, I agree that Jessica wouldn't kill people.

My point is that the only mastermind is Shkanontrice.

>>5705607
The former.

Like "Kyrie Eleison"

Didn't Kanon start working on the island the same time Beatrice was created? Could it be that when Beatrice's original created Beatrice that she changed her identities to Kanon to accommodate the fact that she was trying to start a new, thus Kanon was always on the island just by a different name prior?

>>5705613
My issue with Shkannontrice is that again the "Beatrice" is most likely a pawn. Plus she doesn't even seem to hold any ill will towards Battler nor is it hinted that she does. If she did then Beatrice wouldn't love Battler and would more despise him.

>>5705608
Highly possible. Making a fake shed murders and then putting red paint on Natsuhi to pin it on her.
Sadly the real culprit killed all of them.

Actually the only reason I think Kyrie is Erika is because of Kyrie's "my master" drop and only Kyrie has mentioned "Certainty" and "Miracles" on the gameboard.

>>5705628
Faked their deaths? True culprit? I understand that you all want Kyrie to be Takano 2.0, but she's never really expressed hatred towards anyone but Asumu.
>>5705626
Ill-will or not, she killed people. Religious Fanatics like the people in Cults aren't viewed as misguided, they are viewed as monsters. Likewise, if Shkanontrice lied to everyone and killed them, the same thing applies.

Did you guys miss the bit where Kanon and Shannon talk about everyone dying? They're not talking about faking deaths in this case!

>>5705611
>>5705612
>>5705614

Oh good. Scared for a second. Spelling words backwards in Moonspeak still catches me unawares I guess.

>>5705629
But then wouldn't Erika have cut her own head off?

>>5704495
>>5704499
>>5704503
>>5704517
That's nice and all, but there are two things that you just can't use according to Knox.

Knox's 8th. The extra key to the chapel was never mentioned. There are no clues about that.
Knox's 4th. Unknown drug.

>>5705606
Most likely. I swear, Jessica is almost like Battler's sister or something. The two are very similiar to each other.

>>5705640
>They're not talking about faking deaths in this case!

Who says they aren't? The First Twilight is always intended to be faked.

anyone else think ep 2 gives the most concrete answers? ep 3 is where someone probably fucks up, ep 4 itself is a hilarity, ep 1 has no red text

>>5705672
So when they say "all will die", they just mean "all will pretend to be dead for the sake of a lark and or good amounts of money, and then we'll all have a big laugh about it?"

Explain the end of episode 1, then.

Clearly, there are legitimate dead people there,first twilight fake or not, and instead of "Beatrice" stepping in to help, she just taunts everyone at the end, presumably also killing Natsuhi.

>>5705678

The servants are behind the fake deaths, probably to encourage the family to work together and solve the epitaph. That's what the letters keep pushing them to do, after all.

I won't deny that deaths ARE going on, however. Just that there wasn't SUPPOSED to be any.

>>5705678
Episode 2 is the better example. All the deaths in the chapel were confirmed in red. They were all dead with their guts ripped out when Battler found them.

>>5705685
The idea of loads of fake deaths is interesting considering the last two games, but what's the objective? Who are they trying to fool, and why?

>>5705690

The guts could be faked. They could easily have died in some other, more subtle way.

>>5705685
You're dodging my question. We all know real murders occur, my point is, why does Beatrice, who is supposedly faking the deaths, taunt everyone at the end of episode one, in addition to being the one who shot Natsuhi?

And the scenario being that the servants are all trying to convince the family to defuse a bomb or something is laughable at best. Seriously, that's pretty goddamn stupid.

Also, do recall that this child has nothing to gain from the epitagh being solved.

The lives of her friends and psuedo-family certainly should count as something!

>>5705697

The servants are behind them, and they're trying to scare everyone else into actually working together for once and solving the epitaph TOGETHER, as a FAMILY.

Probably in accordance with that will of Kinzo's we never get to see.

>>5705697
Gruesome deaths for the cops to find, while hiding something else? Or maybe someone hated the Ushinomiyas THAT much, that they wanted them to die horribly and for everyone to know it.

>>5705700
I think they were killed a more subtle way, but afterwards their guts were torn out. Why would it be necessary to fake their guts?
>The six people were already dead by the time they were discovered!

>>5705706

It doesn't have to be Beatrice who shot Natsuhi.

Furthermore, she doesn't taunt anyone. In fact, she doesn't say a word. All she does is show up behind Maria.

>>5705719

The adults themselves are faking their own deaths, as per their agreement with Beatrice.

However, the real culprits killed the adults while they were sedated...

>>5705700

rosa, gohda, shannon, maria and george all
re-enter the chapel

>>5705720
She laughs, remember Battler's narration?

And lets say that she has no connection to the request for a duel, which is stretching things. Why is she just chilling with Maria at the end laughing? Shouldn't she be trying to help the family since obviously her "fake the deaths" idea went south?

>>5705726
I'm just saying that in that case, the plan went very awry right from the beginning. The twilight Battler saw wasn't faked by the time he saw it.

>>5705726
Another thing I don't buy. Jessica's deaths, in episodes 2 and 4. Either Kanon/Beatrice just did NOTHING while she died, or did her in herself.

we pretty much established everyone died in the chapel it doesn't even matter if they're faking and were re-killed

rosa was shown to be in it but left for some reason, we never got the reason either, she's suspicious but i don't think she kills anyone being seen walking with battler and george the whole time until the end

>>5705735
One personality ones to kill her and conquers the other personality to do so. Thus Kanon dies in both cases. In the second game, he died in that room according to the red. In the fourth game, he was the 9th victim, which is right after the second twilight.

>>5705743
No, I understand that. The issue is that you're creating a scenario that has Beatrice faking the deaths, but Jessica's deaths in the first four arcs are very real murders.

>>5705749
Oh, that isn't me. Carry on.

>>5705749
Jessica is most likely an accomplice to the culprit, take a guess.

>>5705774
Yes, because the first thing I think of when I think of Jessica is "sociopath".

I'll admit she's not an idiot, but she's not an evil person either. All she wants to do is lez it up with Kanon, chill with Battler, and generally avoid being too involved in the Ushiromiya family.

Not "sadistically plot the murder of her entire family".

>>5705830
:3

>>5705830
Hey someone on this island's gotta be secretly crazy, or else none of this would have happened. Might as well be Jessica.

>>5705853
We already have someone who is openly crazy, not afraid of murdering people, and also is a prime fit for most of the murders. And that is Shkanontrice.

No need to have the person in episode 6 who found the whole murder thing kinda retarded be a nihlist.

Cause, uh, remember those fantasy scenes, where Jessica refuses to be a dick? Those weren't there for show.

>>5705853
Thing is, we've already got one confirmed crazy.

>>5705707
Since when GODDAMN GOLDSMITH became the kind of loving happy family guy?

>>5705874
Jessica is one of the most tragic characters in the series. The scene in episode two? That was her trying to coax her friend into sanity, only to fail.

The scene in episode 4? That was her trying to save Battler, even while knowing that seconds after her phone call, her brain would splatter against the wall.

She's a bro, and she is deserving of some respect, but people just use her in their theories without giving a damn. Either making her work with Kanon(the fuck does that work out?) or making her some kind of cartoon villain, without actually understanding that much like Battler, she is just a good person stuck in a bad situation.

crazy people list: natsuhi (talks to beatrice/kinzo alone), shannon (DID maid who has commitment problems), george (fat kid who was bullied in school who will kill for his girlfriend), ange (imaginary friends), maria, same as ange, kinzo, etc.

am i missing anyone else? probably am

>>5705932
Hey, she might get to survive in the end. But yeah, shit sucks for Jessica. Not like she had a wonderful childhood herself either, but unlike the entire rest of her family, she mostly sucks it up.

>>5705876
>>5705874

Actually, by this point, I think we've got about a third of the cast as confirmed crazy (Genji, Natsuhi, Shannon, Eva), and another third capable of murder for rational reasons (Kyrie, Rosa, Eva, Hideyoshi, Krauss). Not sure why people suddenly put so much focus on Shkanon.

If you ask me, the culprit needs to hit a balance between the two groups. Crazy in motivation, but rational in execution. Someone with every reason to be crazy, who nevertheless maintains a straight face throughout. Like Moon-chan.

>>5705972
Jessica's sane! But her life sucks! And she doesn't have any mental disorders!

ERGO...

SHE'S THE MASTERMIND!

Come on, be nice to the poor lesbian.

>>5705995
Man, it's odd. In a sense, I'd almost want her to be the mastermind, because at least then her fate wouldn't be so sad. Killed by her best friend, lied to by her parents, before she even got to leave the shitty island.

If she were the mastermind, at least she would rise above being the one who was subjected to such an awful fate.

>>5705972

anti-shkannonfag here but lets just say the kanon personality was made to be stoic, realist to tell shannon she couldn't do it, orderly personality when shannon is said to be clumsy to set her straight, that's probably that midpoint your talking about

as much as i hate to say it, "kanon" dies when shannon realizes she doesn't want to be restrained by him anymore

My theory is doubletrice with Kanon and Shannon being the 2 Beatrices. Basically Kinzo mind rape, decides one isn't enough so gets another one to join. The reason there can only be one allowed to leave the island is because small bombs was planted in both of them and it requires the death of the other to deactivate the bomb in them. Kinzo originally had a jetpack deathmatch for them to determine who would be the lucky one but he keeled before that could happen.

Nice Lambda thread guys. By the way Lambda has shaped up to be a pretty awesome character and not at all what i expected. I expected Bern+Lambda vs. B & B ever since episode 4.

>>5706066
Genius. Of course, Jessica was a robot the whole time, but the critical flaw in her programming was that she never could experience.... love.

>>5706066

i just came, thanks

>>5706070
Like it matters, Battler and Beatrice don't even exist.

It'll be a fight over nothing, a trivial pursuit. The truth exists, and that truth is a human killed a bunch of people and ruined quite a few lives.

>>5706049
That doesn't work, because original would be more like Kanon after giving up the Beatrice fragment of her personality. So here we have Kanon the original, and no reason why would the original create Shannon.

>>5705995
Yeah, kind of a nasty thing to be rooting for, but I think they've left enough hints.

Trapped on an island for six years, with a sexually abusive grandfather, parents who are totally oblivious, servants who try to ignore her, her best friend cousin who promised to come back and disappeared. And every time it happens, she hears the same thing "you are my Beatrice. You will never escape me again." She stays as strong as she can, but present day, what do we see? A girl who talks of multiple personalities, and who has a love interest, who she's willing to do anything for, who she MUST know, at least in the back of her mind, doesn't actually exist.

Totally secretly crazy. Well, half theorywork, and half sadism.

>>5706085
Interesting idea. Kinzo raped Jessica, but she doesn't think she's Beatrice?

That'd be refreshing, honestly. It would explain her annoyance at Beatrice in scenes like this.

But nah, I can't see her as the culprit, her fantasy scenes, do they mean nothing? Of course not.

Someone is going to get this doujin when it comes out, right?

>>5706085
Me: Jessica's sane!
You: Exactly!
I don't quite know what I can do in a situation like this.....

Jessica's a good girl, and this I will believe until shown otherwise.

>>5706133

...right?

;_;

>>5706133
I'll be uploading it, don't you worry.

>>5706120
Why does the manga have all this shit that doesn't happen in the VN? I should read it.

>>5706137
Poorly worded? Sorry. Only agreeing that it was mean, and not really supported by any hard evidence.

>>5706120
Jesus christ Jessica, the only way you could look more sketchy is by holding a glass of chianti in your hands.

>>5706162
She looks rather innocent to me.

>>5706085
On one hand, Jessica has no reason to kill everyone.

On the other hand, she's currently involved in a romance with her best friend.

I don't know what to believe at this point. Shkanontrice makes any TWEEST possible and plausible.

>>5706172
Oh, I'm sure she is, but the "reflecting upon an ominous portrait as a servant slowly approaches you" bit is a stock move used by bad guys everywhere.

>>5706148
>Why does the manga have all this shit that doesn't happen in the VN?

Because.

>I should read it.

Yes. It's IMO the best version of seakitties so far.

>>5706177
That's only because Shkanontrice is so logically fallible that you can't say what's what with it.

>>5706187
...is it?

>>5706200
Yes, yes, same with sipping on a glass of chianti and appearing during a thunderstorm.

You need to watch more bad spy movies.

>>5706200
Those two I agree on, but I think pondering a portrait and having a servant approach you is common for all characters, not just bad guys.

>>5706250
It's often used as a device to discuss the portrait.

>>5706066
>The reason there can only be one allowed to leave the island is because small bombs was planted in both of them and it requires the death of the other to deactivate the bomb in them.

I was actually imagining something like this for explain Shkannon...

>>5706279
But Furfur and Zepar tell the reason. Kanon + Jessica =/= 2 people, Shannon + George =/= 2 people, Battler + Beatrice =/= 2 people. None of them can create universes therefore, since Kanon, Shannon and Beatrice have incomplete souls. The duel is to make their souls complete by taking in the souls of the losers.

>>5706250
It depends.

Like, 4 people in front of a portrait? Normal.

One person in front of a portrait? Not so normal. The whole isolation vibe.

"Ah, yes, Sneebles. I was just.... reflecting."

Granted, I agree with you, Jessica's a good guy, but that shot seems tailored to look sketchy.

>>5706290

Kanon and Jessica can't create an universe either..

>>5706290
If Beatrice isn't a complete person, how did she manage to make a universe with Maria in the past?

I mean, I know she isn't, according to EP6. But apparently Beatrice managed to complete herself in the past without devouring Shannon and Kanon, but that logic.

>>5706316

Maria is the witch of creation.

>>5706322
So what? Maria still couldn't have made a universe by herself, it was created by Maria and Beato together. Unless somehow the title of Creation makes Maria count as a person and a half or some shit.

>>5706331

When Maria gives up on that world it starts to crumple.

>>5706316
Very good question really.

>>5706346
Yeah, because the two people requirement wasn't filled anymore. The same thing would have happened if Beato left.

>>5706331
Maria is supposed to be able to give birth to 1 from zero. So maybe Maria was able to make Beatrice count as 1 person?

>>5706365
So Maria has the mystical power to make Beatrice a complete person without having her eat Shannon and Kanon?

Pinocchio end confirmed.

>>5706371
Maybe Battler was alluding to something like that when he said he'd carry Beatrice off the gameboard?

Perhaps Maria, in all her support of Beatrice, is creating the seed for Beatrice. Shkanontrice takes that seed, and with her murders and her letters, makes it grow to "surpass the heavens". So Beatrice is being treated first as a person Maria has met, but one nobody believes in a witch, then as an actual witch. Metaphorically, she has reached the level of a person, but in reality, she probably hasn't and no such miracle can really occur.

Or the Maria who creates one from zero could refer not to Maria herself, but to Shannon who split her personality in the first place, and the body that is signing the messages as "Ushiromiya Maria". Admittedly, that isn't 1 from 0, but she is creating a "person" where one otherwise wouldn't exist. Though this person doesn't count as a full one, Beatrice's magic is supposed to solve that.

When I was reading, I was pretty sure that the whole half a person thing only applied to Chick Beato. And her missing half wasn't Shkanon, it was HER other half, you know, the one that was standing next to her the whole time.

I think you guys are trying to make things more complicated than they are. Or maybe just looking for more ways to tie Shkanon to Beatrice.

>>5706428
But then it doesn't make sense that Shannon would take in Beatrice and Kanon's souls, nor that Zepar and Furfur told Beatrice that she would have taken in their souls if she won. It also doesn't make sense that the elder Beatrice is separate from the trail in that case. Also, we have the scene with Beatrice's mother that is most likely Shannon.

It seems to be that chick Beatrice is a Beatrice who consists only of Shannon's love for Battler. That isn't the complete Beatrice. Beatrice completed is Shannon's love for Battler + the legend of the witch that Kinzo propagated beforehand (elder Beato) + 1000 years (the sin).

>>5706428
This was my impression too. I accept Shkanon, but I remain skeptical about Shkanontrice.

>>5706428
Or doubletrice. The old Beatrice was Shannon's other half, while lovelorn Beato and Kanon were the other. Which also explains why both Kanon and Beato disappear at the same time, rather than Beato not disappearing when she lost. But leaves the question about what they were fighting for that only one was allowed to live.

>>5706448
That's true, but doesn't it seem strange that Battler seemed completely unconcerned and chill about the love trial? I mean, from what Kanon said later, it was basically a foregone conclusion that Shannon would win (and thus consume Beatrice), but Battler, who knows the truth, acted completely relaxed and almost uninterested about it.

>>5706448
By the way, I still don't think complete Beato is a full person. Lambda in the episode 3 tea party implies that Beatrice is less than even human (furniture), there's also this from episode 3 as well. She still has the problem of being an incomplete soul, so in the end she does not exist as her own person on the gameboard. Not until Kanon and Shannon personalities are both gone.

>>5706505
>Lambda in the episode 3 tea party implies that Beatrice is less than even human (furniture)

What Lambda says is that Beatrice was originally human, and if Beato crosses her, Lambda will reduce her back to that state. I don't really see how that's her implying Beato is less than human.

>>5706502
Shannon and Kanon both talked about how it doesn't really matter, since it's the day everyone will be taken to the Golden Land. Battler may have not really cared because it was only events on the gameboard, albeit a meta part of the gameboard. Battler may understand the truth of Beato's game, but the nature of the meta-world seems to be another thing entirely. He may not comprehend things such as how a meta-character can suffer a more permanent death than in the game, and what Beato 'as a player' really means. That, or there's the theory that episode 6 was a huge just as planned moment for Battler, and he was only doing it all predicting that it would cause Beatrice to revive, since that was his goal.

>>5706530
I need to go over it again, but I think she said Beato was even less than human.

>>5706537
Battler loves Beato, and when he learned the truth about her in EP5 he was crying and screaming about how he wanted to save her. I don't think it's plausible that he would shrug and be totally relaxed about a scenario that would end in Shannon basically consuming her existence. And if it was all just as planned for Battler, well, then I'm even more inclined to take Beato's entire participation in the love trial with a giant grain of salt.

Could meta-Beato (not gameboard beato) be Battler's furniture? Sometimes I think that, but I give up because shit becomes to convoluted.

>>5706542
99% positive she didn't, but go ahead. I remember her describing Beato's human form as "shabby", but definitely not less than human.

>>5706365
And Battler does the same as Maria? She's managed to create a Golden Land with him twice at this point.

>>5706573
She does say she was a human originally. Then like you said, she calls her shabby. "I'll remind you what a truly shabby creature you were".

>>5706590

What? She never does that.

"Chick" beato was. Once she remembered who she was she became the old beatrice again.

Could meta-beato be Battler's furniture whom he forgot about, and who was later raised by Bern?

>>5706607
Well, technically she only does it once, but she creates a Golden Land with him when they battle in EP4, then it is sustained in her weakened state through EP5, and then we see no real trace of it in EP6.

There's also the issue that, when Shannon absorbed Kanon and Chick Beato, completely different things happened to them. Kanon was sorta? denied, and was used to allow Battler a way out of the logic error. Beato shrugged it off, and came back better than before.

For all we know, maybe when she "failed" to obtain her chance to love/understand Battler/herself, it just triggered a moment of introspection, from which she came back with a new understanding. (Wouldn't be the first time such a thought process caused one to literally drop off into nothingness)

>>5706560
However, even if he was crying for that Beatrice, he didn't seem to care much about the piece one. It is a rather strange situation, especially how Beatrice who should just be a piece resumes the role of Beatrice the player at the end of episode 6. I don't think the love trial depicts it with great accuracy, because the Beatrice in Shannon's head is the Beatrice Battler sees and talks to on the phone in episode 4. She's in no way moetrice. I think what makes the situation unclear is that meta-Beatrice being dead and revived is mixed with piece-Beatrice being a participant in the duel. In reality, they are two separate entities, though one is based on the other, but they are depicted as one in episode 6.

Even if you ignore the love trial where Beatrice is concerned, there's already plenty of evidence that Beatrice is Shannon, plenty that she is Kanon as well. If Kanon and Shannon are both the same person, there you go.

>>5706625
>there's already plenty of evidence that Beatrice is Shannon
But none of it ties her to Battler romantically, which is one of the cores of Beato's development.

>>5704232
>So by getting Bern involved in a mystery that can only be solved though love...
she'll turn into a very kawaii Rika!

>>5706637
The flashback of Beatrice's 'mother' ties her to Battler romantically, so does the line about the white horse he gave her when they were kids. There's also how George was jealous watching Battler and Shannon.

>>5706611

She's not our Beatrice though, she's moetrice with an upgrade personality

The old Beato is forever gone.

>>5706653
That's right, but she essentially takes that old Beatrice's place. Nobody's going to be grieving over the old Beatrice anymore, I think.

>>5706625

I think Chick Beato was the new Meta Beatrice from the start, and the big sister Beato was the Piece Beato from Ep6.

>>5706625
Well, we were given a clue from Ange and Featherine to look to Battler's reaction and attitude towards Beatrice now that he knows the truth as a strong hint as to what's going on with her. And what we see in this ep is him simultaneously giving no special attention whatsoever to Shannon and not really giving a fuck about a duel where Shannon is supposedly going to consume her existence. Something feels off about Beatrice's participation in that duel in general, especially compared with Kanon, who had the theme of duality beat into our heads along with Shannon - those two also pretty much completely ignored Beatrice during their conflict and the trial in favor of focusing exclusively on each other.

But we always come back to Battler's sin. The only thing I can think of is that his "sin" was forgetting about his furniture he gave birth to at some point, which was cast down by being forgotten by Battler, and perhaps given life again by Bern. The "shabby" appearance could simply refer to the appearance of her original vessel -- maybe a young person's detective story anthology Battler loved to read, and who, as a child, invested a mind of it's own into it. I almost feel like calling it right now.

>>5706679
Shannon isn't the one Battler loves. She doesn't look like Beatrice, nor does she act like her. I think it's safe to say meta Battler's personality has dramatically changed since he learned the truth. Battler on the gameboard may go around groping Jessica and Shannon, but meta Battler really doesn't care (although there is that TIP where he gets favors from all the women). Battler was more focused on the meta side of things. He probably wanted to resurrect meta Beatrice, then be more concerned about the events on the gameboard.

>omething feels off about Beatrice's participation in that duel in general, especially compared with Kanon, who had the theme of duality beat into our heads along with Shannon - those two also pretty much completely ignored Beatrice during their conflict and the trial in favor of focusing exclusively on each other.
That's because she had already been eliminated at that point. They were stuck in a stalemate before they were eliminated, so the bottom line was, someone had to go. Tying the logic error into the love trial causes this stalemate to be overcome, but in the actual situation in Shannon's head in the gameboard, it would be a lot more complex than that.

>>5706650
The conversation that George saw, and the Pony conversation were both portrayed as non-romantic.

And Beatrice's "mother", as in who? I thought she considered the original Beatrice to be her mother. I don't think the game has even acknowledged the concept, that some culprit character might have created the Beatrice persona. Not yet anyway.

>>5706650
You remember how George said he was jealous of Battler and Shannon, but do you remember how Shannon was confused and didn't seem to know what George was talking about or what reason he could possibly have to be jealous?

>>5706730
See chapter 'duel of the two lovers'. When Beatrice questions why she loves Battler in the first place, she asks her 'mother' why she does, then we're shown a flashback with someone talking to Battler, the her 'mother' creates Beatrice by splitting her soul. One of Battler's lines in the flashback imply whoever he's talking to, it isn't Jessica.

>>5706745

Because Shannon isn't the one who loves Battler, she's just like Kanon, another personality born from this "mother"

>>5706728
No. Kanon and Shannon ignored Beatrice the whole time, from before the official start of the trial, throughout the trial, and to the end of the trial. From the beginning they talked about them settling it between the two of them, with no allusion whatsoever to "and there's that other person to deal with, too."

Kanon and Shannon said their existence was due to their Father's fault?

I'm yet to come up with a solution who that Father may be, since they are not supposed to be actual siblings (i.e. Shkanon aside).

>>5706761
Well, uh, maybe?

>>5706761
The term father kept being repeated by another character in the same game and you can't make a connection?

>>5706783

I doubt that, since he's bronove.

I think Father would be Kinzo or Battler.

>>5706761
Battler. Battler's sin is what creates Kanon and Shannon's personalities. He's the one who has the most obvious "sin", too.

If Battler came back, he could probably have perused a romance with Shannon, but when he didn't, and Shannon perhaps started to look to George and Jessica instead, she didn't give up on her love for Battler entirely, instead creating another personality by splitting her soul, who could love Battler.

Battler still not coming back after this twists the Beatrice personality, who was only born to love Battler, but serves no purpose if Battler doesn't come back. Thus the 'it would be better if I wasn't born' stuff.

>>5706783
Hmm... I wouldn't know. How would Genji be responsible of their existence.

I mean, that line was really odd, if you ask me.

WHY SHANNON IS BEATRICE FOR THE MOST RETARDED.
Episode 6: We have the flashback of 6 years ago with "Beatrice" talking to Battler.
Battler talk to this "Beatrice" about his favorite kind of girl and joke around in english.

Different scene, George remember about 6+ years ago, how he was jealous of Battler and we see a scene of Battler and Shannon talking and laughing together.

Different scene, Battler talks about how he was shy as a kid and how he lied to the girl he liked saying he liked a different kind of girl.

Now episode 3: Battler states CLEARLY that Shannon was his first love.
Shannon also states CLEARLY that he used to joke around in english with her all the time and that he promised to come back for her on a white horse.

Episode 4: "Beatrice" talks to about how Battler used to talk in english and how his favorite kind of girls is blond and busty.

NOW I WONDER WHO THAT BEATRICE BATTLER TALKED TO IN EPISODE 6 COULD BE.

>>5706793
Clarifying further, thus the Shannon we know now is not the original Shannon. The original Shannon was Shannon+Kanon+Beatrice before they were split. The Shannon now is a made-up personality as much as Kanon and Beatrice are, she is not the original complete soul, but a fragment of it, and the sin was the catalyst that caused the fragmenting.

>>5706793
>Battler. Battler's sin is what creates Kanon and Shannon's personalities. He's the one who has the most obvious "sin", too.

Shannon original personality created Beato, i don't see a reason for the other two.

>>5706813
You need 2 parents to have a child you now.
Mother = Sayo
Father = Battler.

>>5706793
I can see where you come from, but it barely makes any sense if I try to think it logically.

To begin with, you do not create personalities. And no, what Jessica said was different. What she does is basically show a different behaviour at home, and another one at school. This is pretty much something every person does to some degree. However, creating different personalities at will is something that cannot be done. And if she's doing the same thing Jessica suggested, then this person is flat-out three-timing. I don't think that's the kind of person R07 wants to depict as the main character in this story.

>>5706824

A reason of the others two personalities, i mean.

>>5706813
Yeah, that makes no sense. Battler has no connection to Shannon and Kanon's creation, if the common Shkanontrice theory has anything to say about it. It should be George's sin and Jessica's sin respectively.

>>5706745
Funny enough Kanon acts differently towards Battler, acting shy and confused when normally Kanon is shown as being distant to those less familiar. Shannon on the other hand just acts like she normally does when confronted with Battler.

>>5706828
R07 doesn't accept the three-timing, neither do Zepar and Furfur. That's why the trial takes place, it's Shkanontrice's own sin to think she can create these personalities, and then love with them. That's why furniture isn't allowed to love humans. Two of the personalities have to be destroyed so the third one remains, and that third one can love.

>>5706835
Did you even read the monologue?
Battler caused the "splitting of the soul" of Sayo, at least he was a big part of it.

>>5706797
>Different scene, Battler talks about how he was shy as a kid and how he lied to the girl he liked saying he liked a different kind of girl.

Is this from EP6? I don't seem to remember this scene.

>>5706854
Not episode 6 scene. I'd like to know as well.

>>5706849
Yeah, Battler would have been involved in the split that created Beatrice. What does he have to do with the split that would have created Shannon and Kanon?

>>5706849

Yes, and that' why she created BEATRICE.

Then she said she would try to find happiness on her own, while Beatrice would keep loving Battler.

>>5706849
The sin was creating Kanon and Shannon, not Shannon and Beatrice.

>>5706848
Yeah, but before the duel she's been two-timing, for at least 2 years.

I mean, seriously, not only the main heroine would be some mentally unstable girl, but bisexual (I have no problem with this) and a cheater. I don't think that's the main heroine R07 wanted to write about.

This is why I think there must be a flaw on this theory.

>>5706863
Originally, there was just Shannon.

Shannon falls in love with Battler.
Battler doesn't come back, that's the sin.

Shannon starts to have feelings for George and Jessica as well, she wants to pursue loves with them. Even if she just split herself into two - Shannon and Beatrice, Battler could still be called the new Shannon's father, because the new Shannon is not the old Shannon, only a fragment of her, and Battler's sin was a catalyst in the fragmenting, making him a metaphorical "father". However, she splits herself into a whole three, and all those three could in a sense call Battler "father". Their "mother", then, is the original Shannon Beatrice of whom they are all a part of.

>>5706854
That's because it doesn't exist. The only thing Battler has to say about his first love aside from EP3 is in EP5 when he laughs over the fact that she's dating someone else now.

>>5706878
The splitting of the soul caused the creation of Kanon and after that Shannon.
Shannon and Kanon weren't created for George and Jessica.

http://www.war-facts.com/?p=18291&i=h4

>>5706892
>Battler doesn't come back, that's the sin.
He did come back. That can't be the sin.

>>5706884
Not really two-timing. Jessica liked Kanon, but Kanon constantly said he couldn't love humans, and rejected her. In the end, the only relationship that's gone anywhere is George's with Shannon.

>>5706896
>The splitting of the soul caused the creation of Kanon and after that Shannon.
Absolutely nothing points to this at all.

Sure is great how every thread turns into a Shkanontrice thread.

>>5706896
How? Why? Explain. How does further splitting into Kanon and Shannon automatically follow?

>>5706892
>Battler doesn't come back, that's the sin.

He commuted the sin 6 years ago.

>Shannon starts to have feelings for George and Jessica as well, she wants to pursue loves with them.

It doesn't make any sense.

>>5706902
After six whole years, though. Shannon got tired of waiting for Battler, this might have even been only three years ago - when Kanon first appeared. Beatrice however received Shannon's anguish of waiting for him, so it was still a 6 years of suffering to her.

As soon as the personality split occurred, his sin was actualized. If he had come back the next year, it wouldn't have been a sin, since he didn't break his promise.

>>5706920
To be more specific, Battler's sin was his "promise" to Shannon. Because he didn't fulfill the promise - because he didn't come back, so he couldn't - it becomes a sin. If he never promised anything, it wouldn't have been one.

>>5706919
For Shannon, it's obvious.
Original splitting, one half was Beatrice so that leave another half.
Shannon is basically the original Sayo without the Beatrice part so it's her, it's logical.

There are lots of hints that Kanon was created for Kinzo though.

>>5706943
So you're claiming that Shannon and Kanon have different "fathers"? That doesn't fit with what they said.

>>5706909
That's true, but even then. Beatrice, which would be like the original Shannon (theoretically), has been having a game in which Jessica and George (her other possible love interests) are killed regularly, whereas Battler always makes it to the end, almost always in quite a privileged position.

Sure, this is the self that loves Battler, but leaving DID aside (and I'm sure you'll agree with me, chances of DID being used are quite unlikely), this would mean this person has George and Jessica as spares in case Battler doesn't remember.

I think we might be confused thinking there are 3 personalities. Kanon has been given basically no development, all we have for him is stuff to develop Jessica or stuff to point him as being Beatrice. The only stuff we have gained out of all of that is that Kanon seems emotionally scarred and scared of relationships. If anything I think Kanon IS the Beatrice personality. Also the fact that Kanon looks upto Jessica could be explained with Kanon wanting to fulfill the being more like Battler's ideal.

>>5706933
>After six whole years, though. Shannon got tired of waiting for Battler,

"Shannon" stopped waiting for Battler the moment she created Beatrice

>"I can no longer love him.
>The feelings I could not obtain...the feelings I could not bear...please obtain them."
>"I will push all of my suffering on to you... Please forgive me for being the only one to become happy."

>>5706797

Yeeeah, just went back and reread the monologue with Shannon in mind. It still matches my original impression better. That whole scene is about Chick Beatrice learning to come to terms with her own weird existence. She's not receiving a message from Shannon, she's hearing what the original Ep1-5 Beato would say, on the topic of how she and the original Beato are related, and she leaves the monologue with a deep enough understanding of the original Beato to be able to emulate her.

The person Battler's talking to doesn't even enter the conversation. He could be talking to a wall. What's important is that proto-Beatrice was doing her omniscient thing and was watching them.

>>5706952
But we don't know when this was. She might have only created Beatrice when Battler didn't come back. Six years ago, Beatrice didn't exist for Battler, we know that from red. So I think she came into existence at some point during those six years, not necessarily exactly six years ago. Still, it would be as if she had existed for all those six years, because she wasn't created from thin air. She was created from Shannon's own soul.

>>5706892
>Shannon falls in love with Battler.
>Battler doesn't come back, that's the sin.

>Shannon starts to have feelings for George and Jessica as well

And yet Shannon is clueless as to what could have made George jealous of she and Battler. Shouldn't it have been immediately obvious to her?

>>5706952
But why would she create Beatrice for. If she got tired, couldn't she just have moved on with George and be happy?

The whole creation of "personas" for every person she seems to fall for seems terribly convoluted if you ask me.

>>5706958
>and she leaves the monologue with a deep enough understanding of the original Beato to be able to emulate her.
No, she doesn't. She comes back to herself only after talking to Kanon, not remembering why she loves Battler. She doesn't emulate Beato, she becomes "me".

I don't think this really came across in the translation, but Moeto's speaking patterns were purposefully very different from Beato's to avoid reminding Battler of something she wasn't. She wouldn't have started pretending to be her, no matter what.

>>5706958
I can't exactly picture the words "my kawaii Beatrice" coming from Shannon's mouth, myself.

>>5706951
It would be plausible, but Kanon dies 9th in episode 4 while Beatrice meets Battler on the balcony later. True, we didn't have the deaths confirmed at that point, but that would mean all these living people are hiding away when it seems like only Maria, Beatrice and Battler are still on the island. There's also episode 2, Kanon dies in Jessica's room but Battler meets Beatrice later (though this scene is muddled with fantasies).

>>5706965
Even if she couldn't remember that particular scene, it's impossible for her to not know of a scene that would make George jealous. She at least knows about Battler's promise to come riding on a white horse, so she should be able to recall at least that, and probably similar scenes, and realize George could be jealous from them. In the heat of the moment, she probably just found it hard to recall, and George told her not to bother before she could.

>Expecting a Lambda thread
>Get's another fucking Shkanontrice debate

Seriously guys give it a rest

>>5706948
No.
If you want to talk in a more concrete term, Battler was the catalyst that caused the DID, that's why he is the father.
That's all.

>>5706979
EP2 meeting with Beatrice and Kinzo was 3rd person narrated, wasn't it? Infact I'm positive at least a portion of it was. As was EP3 when Battler died, on a unrelated note.

>>5706994

But it doesn't mane any sense for Battler to have anything to do with Kanon.

>>5706991
I don't think she has to remember a particular scene. Remembering that she and Battler were in love six years ago would have been enough. It comes across that Shannon really has no clue ("Huh? Me and Battler???" with her mind racing), not like "I don't know what specific conversation he means, but it's true I was very fond of him back then..."

>>5706993
>Umineko thread
Seriously guys give it a rest

>>5706995
It does switch to 3rd person at a point, but I think it starts off 1st person.

Guys


Before you use the term DID, learn how it works first. It's impossible for this to be a case of DID. You just do not create personalities at your own will. Full stop.

Now, the other viable option would be Shkanontrice is nothing but a game of pretend (i.e. Jessica's idea of creating another self), but even this is terribly convoluted.

Now, I know EP6 gave vibes of Shkanon, maybe even Shkanontrice, I won't deny that, but can we not think a logical way for Shaknon(trice) to work?

>>5706975
Eh, that's basically what I meant.

>>5706993
I think you're missing the point. Seacats is speculation porn. I can't imagine R07 wrote it to be anything different.

>>5707006
It could still be her just being flustered and under pressure, but if it isn't, this contradicts her actions in say episode 2 on the beach. At least, I think it's episode 2. She does remember that time.

1. On the beach at that time, it wasn't actually Shannon talking. It was another personality that was acting as her. She remembers the promise while Shannon in episode 6 does not because she's the portion of the soul those memories were given to - Beatrice.
2. It's not actually Shannon talking to George in that scene, but another personality. For instance, she says taking care of the rose garden was fun, but it's Kanon who does that.
3. Shannon was for some reason consciously lying in the episode 6 scene or the beach scene.

I still think her being a bit confused in the heat of the moment is the most likely, though.

Theres one thing I've missed.
When did Kinzo rape anyone?

>>5707049
See episode 4 scene "cause of the tragedy".

Beatrice talks about being violated, talks about how Kinzo tied her to the bed, stuff like that.

>>5707053
RRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRAPE THE MAIDS!

>>5707053

I have a question
Whi did they state in red that
>No one escapes, all die.

When Eva survived?

>>5707049
about 2 years ago
when he HNNNNNNNNG'd and died

>>5707077
People usually say the world with Eva surviving is the real world, but I don't think this is the case. Ange implies that even that ending was written by Featherine.

>>5707096
(Also, this is episode 4, where Battler sees every corpse clearly, except Kanon who is confirmed to be dead in red, it may be only referring to episode 4)

>>5707096
Either way, 1998 Eva exists as shown in EP4, and I think she was mentioned in EP6 as well.

>>5707096

So fanfiction in fanfiction in fanfiction in fanfiction?

>>5707032

I understand that Umineko is designated for heavy debates. Hell, that is one of the things that makes umineko, It's debates between episode releases. Although seriously its getting kind of tiring when ALL Umineko threads have to deviate to ShkanontricevsAnti-Shkanon.

>>5707049
No one can prove it.

But we do know is that he's obsessed with some girl from his youth. He's rich and thinks he can do whatever he wants. He, at one point, adopted a little girl, a westerner, like his first love, declared her to be the reincarnation of said love, built her a secret mansion, kept that mansion in a cage, sealed her off from the rest of the world, and hid all of this from his wife and children. Eventually she died, apparently while trying to escape.

What's that add up to?

>>5707126
it probably isnt the same people always arguing about it, different people finish the new ep at different time etc
its not like these threads are a bad thing in any way
plus its pretty much impossible to end a debate with a proper conclusion when talking about this

>>5707126
>Although seriously its getting kind of tiring when ALL Umineko threads have to deviate to ShkanontricevsAnti-Shkanon.

It's nothing odd when Shaknon(trice) was heavily hinted in EP6. What best to discuss than the possible answer?

The Epitaph? Who knows?

>>5707189
The epitaph is probably the worst thing to discuss. It's the hardest to tell when you're on the right track, and it requires Japanese knowledge.

>>5707189
I think "we" should try to solve EP6:s "perfect closed room" without shkanon, and in a way that'd still be a key to the rest closed rooms in Umineko (its not like R07 could lie about that, right?)
I really cant think up anything, besides the characters just randomly going crazy and killing each other. or breaking walls instead of using doors/windows.
somehow the fact shkanon(trice) shoved at our faces makes me feel like it cant be true.

>>5707212
In the cheese analogy, Battler keeps thinking for a better answer because he figures the (actually correct) answer is too obvious. His answer is cool and all, but it only works when he defines the cheese by himself, while the book shows you what the cheese looks like.

>>5707233
however the book didnt specify what the cheese was like, and as far as I know, it didnt tell you the pictured cheese was the one in question, either.
R07 kind of imitates "real" mystery novels (or whatever I should call them), right? while I am no expert when talking about them, as far as I know there are famous works that try to give the reader fake "hints", irrelevant scenes/explanations and such to distract them from the truth.
I guess I shouldnt deny shkanon(trice), though, I'd just like for it to make sense - completely random split personalities born from ridiculous reasons doesnt seem much better than magic to me.

>>5705016
no
wat, anyway

You solved it by putting two into the first, two into the second, one into the third and then putting the third cup into one of of the other two. If you put those three together, the bottom one will have five, which is too much. Why the fuck would you do that?

You are literarily blinded by your persistence on your theory. Or you are starting to troll too obviously already.

>>5707212
Why not? This is one of the EPs in which we're given answers?

What was the coin riddle like again? I might not remember it right.

This is what I'm becoming more and more convinced of:

1. Shkannon may be real, but Shkannotrice is just too convoluted.
2. Bern referenced her "shabby" appearance. That means she couldn't have just been created out of thin air before being Beatrice.
3. The gameboard beato is a manifestation of Kinzo's attempt to bring back beatrice.
4. Meta-beato used to be Battler's furniture before being raised to witchdom by Bern.
5. Both Shannon and gameboard beato do not seem to think Battler is very special -- but meta-Beato appears to be very attached to him the right from the beginning. If Shannon had a thing for him, she should have given some indication of that being so. There has been none.

Am i the only one that interpreted the creation of Beatrice from Shannon not as a second personality, but more like a legend?

"i'll give you half of my soul" meaning she will devote half of her soul trying to create the legend of the golden witch?

>>5707315
I think the one who raised Beato into witchdom was 34.

a single slice can cut it into two parts!
so Erika and Batora were wrong

>>5707466
It can also cut it into 8 pieces if you use the right cheese.

Guys, it's simple:

Anetrice = the Beato born from Kinzo's story + local legends (it's even stated in EP6 that Beato visits the Rokkenjima from years ago when she meets her)

EP1-5 Beato = a being born for Battler's sake and the personification of the rules of the game, as she is a consequence of Battler's sin + what Anetrice was.

Moetrice = basically EP1-5 Beato, but being born from Battler, she's young and leads a different life from her former self, resulting in a different personality (which is why the old Beato cannot be resurrected) - this was used by R07 to reinforce the idea that different life experiences are what makes an individual, rather than a body (i.e. multiple personalities are different people, etc): her 'amnesia' is pretty much another plot device to hint at DID meido and how the Beato we know was born (someone - Shannon - 'gave' her feelings to the witch of the legend, etc). In the end, Moetrice regains her memories, though her personality is never going to be exactly like her former self.

Why Battler doesn't care that 'Beatrice' is the murderer? Because meta Battler is in love with meta Beato, the witch from Purgatorio, not Shannon.

>>5706745
>>5707006
Could it be... Pony...?

This thread is still up?

She wanted at first to see Bernkastel lose, then after EP3 wanted to trap Bernkastel and then in EP5 just wanted to close the game quickly, even though she did not want to expose Beato's heart (since she is not a bitch such as Bernkastel), so she sided with Bern and created a truth (Natsuhi culprit truth) likely just for her. Even though, she would have liked Battler to understand the truth and that happened. Then in EP6, although she was neutral she secretly root for Battler, since she is good after all and wanted Beato to be happy.
Just by placing that Umineko there, this level of reasoning is possible for Furudo Anonymous. What do you think, everyone?