/jp/ - Otaku Culture

It doesn't really sound like the humans are going to live happily. OP.

Let's get something straight here; he is talking about "device X".

Loveliest. Trick. Ever.

>>5697787

Battler is sane. Shkanontrice is a stupid trick to him.

>>5698013

Sayo is autistic.

Bump; I want to elaborate a bit on this. I can't claim to have found *the* solution to the closed room in episode 6, but I feel reasonably sure that I found the solution we're expected to find.
Am I correct to assume that this solution is common knowledge?

>>5698065
It depends what solution it is. Then again, maybe it doesn't. If by "common knowledge", you mean many people know of the possibility, then maybe. If by "common knowledge" you mean it's accepted as truth, then no. People are still debating over it endlessly.

How the hell is Shkannon(trice) related to "love"?

More like without severe brain damage it cannot be seen.

EXPLAIN THIS

>>5698113

It's just R07 /r/ing for George/Eva unbirthing porn.

>>5698113
Shinji called, he wanted his traumas back.

>>5698109
NOT OBVIOUS ENOUGH. Say it in red a few times.

>>5698109
>>5698013
・紗代→しゃ　よ→SYAYO→愛（Ｉ）がないと視えない→SYAYO＋I→YOSIYA

TL NOTE: 愛 = love = ai
TL NOTE2: ai = "AI" COPY = I COPY

>>5698113
GET BACK IN MY WOMB JOJI was one of my favorite parts.

>>5698128

I'll admit that it was the only part where Evatrice was even slightly tolerable.

>>5698088
Well, the basics are simple enough. Kanon leaves through the window, breaking the seal, goes to free Battler, resets the chain and then they leave.

I guess what confuses me are people's complains about "wordplays" - Of course there are half-truths and exploiting assumptions - that's the well-known rules of the game, but I don't see any wordplay, just a logic puzzle presented through words.
Of course, they could be talking about their assumptions on the solution of other puzzles from earlier games.

>>5698151
Kanon can't break through the window in the cousins room.
>IMPOSSIBLE. The seals on the windows were also INTACT. Of course, this is at the time of the logic ERROR.

>>5698159
He also can't reset the chain and leave the room with Battler.
>this room is a closed room created from the inside. The seals on the windows are intact, so there can be no escape from there. Of course, there is no way to escape by leaving through the bathroom. ......I'll make it simple. There is no exit to escape from except for this door. However, the chain lock on this door is set. You can unset and reset it all you want, but you can only do so from the inside. Furthermore, you are free to go out through the door, but you cannot leave or escape while the chain lock is unset.

Sayo is a japanese name.

Beatrice is a westerner.

>>5698065
Do want the solution that everyone know or a alternative theory that at the moment doesnt exist?
The solution everyone know is that, Kanon exist inside Shannon head. Kanon was never in that perfect sealed room. Shannon broke out as Kanon to rescue Battler and stayed behind as Shannon/Beatrice.
Take your pick, I am leaning toward her staying as Beato.

>>5698151

The only unsealed window is in the room Shannon is in. Kanon was never mentioned to be in any room: he was just assumed to be part of the "all others". But if Kanon is just Shannon's side personality, "he" can still escape through the unsealed window in Shannon's room.

And of course, Kanon isn't in the closet because Shannon switches to the Shannon personality while there.

>>5698176
Hint: Witches and westerners are not afraid of spider.

>>5698181
I still think changing personalities twice in the span of 10 minutes is retarded.

There's apparently two "Beatrices".

One is the real person named Beatrice, who lived in Kuwadorian for some reason and then died. Her short life was mostly stated in red, and doesn't affect much.

Then there's the later Beatrice that was created as a sexual fantasy for Battler by somebody who had a crush on him, but for some reason couldn't go through with it, and also was insane.

Also...
>Of course. Three people--in other words, three bodies--went in or out. Only you and Kanon entered, and only Battler left. It has already been said in red that all people can only use their own names. Therefore, the names Erika, Battler, and Kanon can only be used by those people.
Your solution is kind of stupid, to be honest. It's a collection of impossibilities.

I don't hate that its "not a mystery" or anything like that, what bugs me about Shkanon

1. It doesn't use a common definition of "person" (I'll let this one slide since I think there's enough foreshadowing).

2. The family has no motivation or explanation for going along with it. I'm excited to see if R07 can come up with one, but I have my doubts.

>>5698196
You have the love duel making it seems plausible.

>>5698196

Hence why you have stumbled upon the reason why people hate Shkannon so much.

It's the most likely theory offered, it's supported by massive amount of circumstantial evidence, it explains all the red text, and it's fucking stupid.

>>5698204
What you shouldn't like is the magical personality switch 'I change conveniently to fit your theories'.

>>5698178,5698181
No, no, no!
This is what I was afraid of. This is the shit that makes everyone hate the Shkannon theory.
I'll semi-guarantee something based on my understanding, and my love: *The names Shannon and Kanon refer to the same person. This is allowed. If Shannon is in a room, Kanon is in the room and vice versa.
>>5698169
Actually... Kanon is allowed to reset the chain from the outside

>>5698198

Kanon is Shannon's "own name". And so is Shannon.

>>5698207
The love duel explained Kanon's 'death in the room', not
>I'm Shannon
>Now I'm Kanon to save Battler
>Now I change to Shannon again, just because

>>5698232

It doesn't need to make real-world sense; it's an entirely made-up scenario to begin with. All it needs to do is satisfy the rules.

>>5698244
It's the same in every scenario we've been presented, Kanon and Shannon should switch for no reason and just to fit theories.

If Shannon is Beatrice, then who are the goats? Nameless thugs hired by the mastermind?

>>5698244
Maybe this room is where Shannon/Kanon usually switches.
Or Battler as the GM just decided to use a cheap trick, he can control how the characters will act on the extent as it fits their personalities after all.

It can be a little less cheap than personalities switching twice.

Nobody said Shkanontrice had to be Kanon at the time of the scape. At that time, like Erika observed, she was in Shannon mode. She only needs to change into Kanon mode before entering the closed room, her explanation for why she left in the first place and ended up there in the first place might have been why she changed personality.

After that, "switching" isn't necessary. According to Featherine, this trick can only be used once. I take that to mean that it's not personality switching, but personality dying. "Kanon" ceased to be as this point. While this is cheap, it's not quite as stupid as him just switching back, and we have foreshadowing for it - the time when Kanon dies in Jessica's room (in red, episode 2), yet his corpse can't be found and the servants claim to have seen someone who they first thought was Kanon, but later thought otherwise. Secondly, in episode 4 where he is the only corpse not found. This also fits with the fantasy scene where Kanon has to stay eternally in that closed room, then turns into golden butterflies. Until the Golden Land, that's the end of Kanon. It doesn't fit with switching. For trivia, this means we have a Kanon personality death in episodes 2, 4 and 6. All the even number episodes.

Or, not just the personality, but the entire body died. Shkanontrice died in that room. Might have even been attacked by Battler/Erika, then set the chain lock behind herself.

The tofu did it, even Erika knows.

>>5698266
It can only be used once because it exposes the real number of people of the island, obviously. Is anyone listening to me? No personality switching. No personality dying.

>>5698227
>[Request: 'The definition of closed room implies that it is impossible to construct from the OUTSIDE'.] Acknowledged.
>We have confirmed that the seals to the guest room are UNDAMAGED. Since the time Lady Erika confirmed Battler's existence, this closed room has been PRESERVED.
>Erika used that duct tape to join the two cut ends of the chain together, 'sealing' them. In other words, the chain was repaired by the duct tape, and this room once again became a closed room locked from the inside.
Don't think so.

This also doesn't explain how he escaped the room he should have been in.

>>5698280
Explain?

>>5698292
Umm... I don't remember the structure of the windows on the guesthouse, but what about breaking the window itself without breaking the seal?
The seals are used to confirm nobody opened the windows/doors, but only if you can also confirm the integrity of the window/door at the same time. Nothing was said about the window itself, only about the seal. Does this follow?

Kanon entered in the room and killed Erika

Now Erika can't find Kanon anywhere

>>5698232
They make it very clear that Kanon lost the duel and is dying and did the last honorable thing to repay his "debt".

Can we conclude that the debt refer to them giving him a personality and quality time with Jessica?

>>5698266
>I take that to mean that it's not personality switching, but personality dying. "Kanon" ceased to be as this point. While this is cheap, it's not quite as stupid as him just switching back

I really, really disagree. Personalities switching, then dying (at the convenient right moment, at that) is a million billion kazillion times worse than just switching twice.

The switch is stupid, but with the two switches theory we only need to assume one stupid thing. With the switching, then dying theory we need to assume two stupid things.

>>5698303
This is obviously about Kanon's escape, not Battler's. I messed up.

>>5698303
>It needs no second telling, but know that entry or exit without breaking the seal is impossible!!
This line in particular is referring to the doors, but the idea of Erika's tape sealing both doors and windows has been one since episode 5. Also, Erika had no trouble at all making it so Battler couldn't use his window for the logic error.
>this room is a closed room created from the inside. The seals on the windows are intact, so there can be no escape from there

>>5698292
Gah, where's that red text when you need it.
Shannon/Kanon is confirmed to be in the room where we know the window's seal was broken, no?
The closed room definition is based on Knox and susceptible to foreshadowing. I don't have it all in my head now to find the exact loophole in the red text, but two powerful pieces of foreshadowing should give Kanon the authority to reset the chain.

>>5698159
>Kanon can't break through the window in the cousins room.
>cousins room.
Here is your mistake.
Take a look at >>5698088 picture again.
Kanon "was" in the cousin's room and Shannon was in the next room over.
Kanon's "magical" escape from the next room over is how he was never there from at all, as he in fact shares Shannon's body over in the next room over and was there all along.

Erika almost guessed it right, she just got a few things wrong and missed some small yet vital details.

The problem about Shkannon is way Battler didn't use it for exist the closed room.

You know, I'm not sure why we even need Shkanon.

You can solve everything without it. Why is it so important?

Shannontrice is probably true, though.

>>5698327

Kanon cannot reset the chain from the outside because he cannot leave the room in the first place. Red confirmed that only two people left through the door: Erika and Battler.

Therefore Kanon/Shannon musts still be in the room.

There is no Shkannon, Kanon and Shannon are twins.

>>5698335
Because of fuck ton of magic scene with them talking about love and golden brooch.
There is a reason why they showed up those scenes and no they arent there to mislead the readers.

>>5698318
In this case, you don't even need to refer to the personality as "dying", since nobody said Kanon was dead. They just said he didn't exist in the room. If a personality exists, do you think it's impossible for it to cease to exist?

Although, Kanon actually being dead when he ceased to exist is foreshadowed. As I was saying before, Kanon dies and his corpse isn't found in both 2 and 4. What's more, he dies right after Jessica in both cases. In episode 4 we have to rely for fantasy scenes for this, but if the first twilight makes up six victims, then the second twilight 2, and Jessica was a victim of the second twilight, then the 9th victim is right after her. We know from the red that Kanon was the 9th victim. I find this curious because it's the only time we're told someone's placing in the order of deaths so directly.

Then, we have Beatrice. When Battler can't remember his sin in episode 4, she is very disappointed, and asks to leave the gameboard. In episode 6, Furfur and Zepar explicitly say that Beatrice was born for Battler, and since she lost that purpose (Battler was stuck in the closed room), she was disappearing, and being taken in by Shannon.

If we take this further, Kanon only exists for Jessica, Beatrice only exists for Battler, Shannon only exists for George. If their respective loves can't succeed, there is no need for their personalities, the other personalities will take them over.

>>5698343
Yeah I know about the scenes in EP6.

I'm just wondering, what's the point of Shkanon? Why do they need to be the same person? For drama or some shit? Because you sure don't need them for the mystery.

>>5698340
But, but... My foreshadowing!
Gah, BRB, learning japanese.

>>5698356
Oh because of red text and mystery culprit X.
Remember ep3 when everyone died? Beato probably used shkanon to deny Evatrice.

>>5698340

Erika would have saved a lot of tears if she had just told them to repeat "nobody other than me is in the room".

She was left puzzling over an impossible escape, when there really was no escape at all - just a cheap trick where one of the pieces changes names all of a sudden.

>>5698356
Because that's like half of the story of Umineko.
Growing another personality within yourself.
The whole soul that was broken thing.
You can find these things in every episodes.

>>5698380
She might have still been tricked if the somebody in the room with her was dead. For the red, people who are dead 'don't exist'. We see this from 'kinzo doesn't exist'

> [Request: 'Hideyoshi, George, Shannon, Kumasawa, and Nanjo are in the next room over!'] Acknowledged.
> [It has already been shown that Kinzo no longer exists, so please remove him from the word 'everyone'.] I acknowledge that everyone else is in the cousins' room.
...What about Erika herself?

>>5698414
This has always been a question. 'Erika doesn't exist' theory attempts to rectify this. It could be that she is just unspokenly excluded because her own location is already known though.

>I furudo erika have DUCT TAPE FUCKERS

oh erika you so crazy

kanon = battler

>>5698414
She is obviously in the corridor.
A: Group Shannon's is in Room 1
A: Everyone else is in Room 2

Basic conversation bro.

>>5698340
All right, I think I've got it. He may not leave, but depending on the wording, he may not have been required to enter. "No one but you, Kanon, and Battler entered the room, and no one but Battler left, is the claim." Kanon merely closed the door, but did not ever enter.

>>5698424
>Battler and Kanon are different people.

>>5698432
>Kanon, and Battler entered the room
>Kanon entered the room
Can you read?

>>5698373

Shannon and Kanon were confirmed dead waaay before the red web. Neither of them, personality or not, could have killed Nanjo.

Do you people believe in Shkanon so blindly?

If I need a detective, sure is /jp/ the last place I will visit.

Scratch that, /jp/ is the place I should NEVER visit.

>>5698460
He means Shkanontrice.

>>5698460
Kanon leading blind Jessica on, Beato helping Kanon fight the black witch.
I believe a smart anon such as yourself can solve this with what we are presented with in Ep6.

>>5698463
I wonder what an expert group of detectives would have to say about Umineko?

>>5698453
Not much, but give me the original red and I'll give it a shot. I'm not sure which line you are quoting, but it may have been written with the possible meaning of "no one but".

>>5698422
If people could be excluded of the statement under any circumstance, explicitly excluiding Kinzo would be redundant, as we already know he's dead and 'doesn't even exist'.
Still, there's the
> Erika repaired the chain lock.
So Erika MUST exist in one form or another.
And so I'm left dumbfounded.

>>5698460
Even if ShKanontrice happened to be true, it doesn'tmean that ShKanontrice is responsible for all the murders.
A minion at best.

>>5698479

"This is some sheer bullfuckery, my dear Watson."

>>5698482
http://umineko.wikia.com/wiki/Red_Truth

>>5698479
A good detective would realize immediately that the maid is crossdressing, only the retards that compose the cast of Umineko could fall for this.

>>5698482
>At the time Battler was rescued, only Kanon entered the guest room.
>[Confirming definition. Can I accept 'three people' to mean to the number of bodies? You're saying that three bodies went in or out of the room, right?] Of course. Three people--in other words, three bodies--went in or out. Only you and Kanon entered, and only Battler left. It has already been said in red that all people can only use their own names. Therefore, the names Erika, Battler, and Kanon can only be used by those people.

>>5698499
I think we should note that half of the umineko cast might cast might be playing along with it. We can give Battler the benefit of doubt since he was gone for 6years.
Nevertheless it is still retarded. I am still hoping for a ryukishi miracle to save his story without rendering the previous 5eps useless.

>>5698495
I said the *original* text. And the exact line, please.

>>5698425
Yes, we are shown that conversation while Erika is in the corridor. But it's said EVERYONE ELSE not before mentioned is in the cousins' room. That would include Erika. There you have.

>>5698515
Look.
Example 1
Say some faggot ask you to go clubbing.
"Everyone else is going."
This doesnt give the impression that you are going.
I am not going but everyone else is going.

I mean in Erika case it was pretty obvious.
She was in the corridor, she was talking to Battler.
Why will the everyone else include her?

>>5698535
Methinks that's not how Red Truth works. 'Everone else' means 'everyone else'. But oh well, we'll have to wait and see.

>5698515
>That would include Erika.
If person A and person B are having a conversation, and A asks "If C is asleep at home, where are everyone else?", then that doesn't include A and B.

Ryukishi can't write like a retard only because he tries to write a mystery novel.

>>5698577
I'm assuming that by the final two pieces of red in episode 6, the red isn't so absolutely clear. In the first place, Battler didn't say in red "Everyone except Kinzo", they just agreed beforehand that Kinzo would be excluded. Can't it be an unspoken agreement that Erika isn't included there because it should be already known without needing to be said? Battler's red in episode 6 relies on context a lot. Like how he uses "Acknowledged" a lot, or adds on with white after his red.

>>5698535
Also, Example 2:
Same faggot asks you to go clubbing.
'Everyone else is going'.
Let's say poor Goldsmith-kun, who was a member of the gang, died two weeks ago.
That doesn't give you the impression Goldsmith-kun is going, as everyone knows he's dead.
Still, Erika removes him explicitly from 'everyone'.

>>5698595
Yes. They have gold text to make something perfectly clear.

does anyone remember when this VN was about beato tormenting Battler

yea me neither

>>5698618
That's what people thought before episode 6, but with episode 6's use of the golden text it seems otherwise.
>You used magic to create a golden flower petal inside an overturned cup. It was a splendid bit of magic.
No matter what, that isn't exactly clear. Sure, a common definition of "magic" is the kind you get from real life magicians who rely on mirrors and sleight of hand, but that isn't perfectly clear, she could be talking about the fantasy kind.

>Interviewer: In EP5, we were told that Battler's use of the gold truth was proof that he understood the rules, including Beatrice.
>Ryuukishi: That's right. The gold text is something that anyone can use if they understand the rules of the game, so ultimately, even 'pieces' in the game can use it. That's probably why Beatrice the elder could use it too. It's like a hidden finishing move in a fighting game that anyone can use if they know the right commands (laughs).
It seems like gold truth is more complex than just objective truth without tricks, and with perfect clarity. There's something special about it.

>>5698647
>fantasy kind
It is definitely not the fantasy kind.
They clearly stated how magic can only exist if it is doable by human.

>>5698656
Well obviously it's not the fantasy kind, but couldn't that golden text still be used to mislead if was given alone? Generally, you'd say "sleight of hand", not "magic". The fact that we've been lead on to a certain definition of "magic" before the fact works in similar nature to the red truth. It doesn't show that the golden truth is any more objective and non-contextual.

>>5698633

Do you know plot not always stay the same?

Silly mystery fags.

>>5698679
To me.
Gold truth is something that you cant change in the gameboard. Once stated it is final.

Take Battler example of stating red text blindly and then finding loophole to make it real. You probably cant do that with gold text.
The last red lines seem to show this kind of behavior.
Since both 18 and 17 people is true.

>>5698713
Since the gold is supposed to be used by people who understand the "rules", then maybe. These "rules" would be things you can't break, things that remain constant. So you couldn't loophole them like you said.

Keep in mind they said there's 17 PEOPLE.

If we go by Ange's definition, that included personalities too.

And at least one person has "Beatrice"(or Kanon) as an alternate personality. So we can't really go by that definition.

That Shkanontrice bullshit is bullshit.

Obviously, Kanon blasted the wall that separates both rooms. With this, he began to blood from his forehead. But, just because he is a very badass guy, he jumped out of the window and rescued Battler.

Awesome Kanon.

>>5698804

That's one thing they never check. If there was any kind of hammer in the room or anything, and the wall was weak.

I think something everyone is overlooking, is WHY did Kanon "die" in the guest room. Maybe it was because he/she was in Shannon clothes but acting like Kanon, and Battler said "lol real funny Shannon now lock this door for me" and then Shkanon was like OH GOD WHO AM I.

>>5698806
Obiously impliying that Erika didn't place seals on the walls. That crazy bitch could do that.

３人、即ち３体が出入りした。
そなたと嘉音は入ったのみ、戦人は出たのみ。
Damn, this will take some work getting round. I'm damn sure there's something to the theory though, it should at the very least be a decoy.

Ah well, I still have my "Battler chopped up Kanon and fished the pieces out through the crack of the door" and "Kanon rolled under the bed and ate a hand grenade" theories to keep me company. Just because Shkanon is practically guaranteed there's no need to surrender to personality swapping bullshit.

>>5698838
>>３人
There is your loophole.

how did kanon even escape again? not even about the seals or not, im pretty sure he would have been gunned down or been told to stop unless kanon escaped the exact moment hideyoshi was talking to Erika on the door

>>5698865
Remember, it was supposed to be a big prank on Erika. The guys with the guns might have been in on the prank.

>>5698865
That's not possible given the 'everyone' on the red referring that room. Unless Kanon does not count as 'everyone'. Who knows what Ryu-chan was thinking about when writing that?

>>5698871
The whole prank thing is so fucking retarded.
I can't believe Ryukishi actually used it.

>>5698885
>The whole prank thing is so fucking retarded.

I disagree.
I didn't expect there to be any kind of a motive or reason for anyone's actions to begin with, so I was pleasantly surprised by the "prank" idea that neatly explained why six people would pretend to be dead.

so what does the whole fake death thing tell us about the murders? so you don't actually have to kill people just to say you preformed a certain twilight

>>5698940

The twilight are actually not real at all. The murders pretend to follow the epitaph, but they really don't.

>>5698949
Except for the red confirming their deaths, and them having their guts hanging out in episode 2.

>>5698857
> Three people--in other words, three bodies--went in or out. No one but you and Kanon entered, and no one but Battler left.
I'm afraid I can't see the loophole, even though it seems the "no one but" interpretation is defensible.

Bleh. Battler's a Witch, right? Have we considered the possibility he may melt in water?

>>5698966

No, I mean the murders do not follow the epitaph. They pretend to follow it, but really different numbers of deaths happen at different times.

the killer wants to make everyone believe the murders are going like the epitaph predicts, but he's really doing them in whatever order.

>>5698971
Battler left the room while Erika had the door opened.
Kanon did not enter the room.

My favorite thing is the part where Battler is suddenly a Beato fanatic, because while she may have killed his entire family, she did it for LOVE!

I mean, what the FUCK?

Eva and Ange have a shitty life, but Battler seems to be cool with it, because Sayo did it for LOVE!

The only good thing to come out of Shkanontrice is Jessica being a lesbian.

>>5698999
> Three people--in other words, three bodies--went in or out.

>>5699009
Is it 'at least three', 'three exactly' or 'not more than three'? During that period could be anithing, more if we take in account the affirmation impliying that any action will be instantaneus and at the same time (made by Erika, i think).

>>5698966
Fake guts made with sausages, fake blood spread everywhere. The killer stabbed them somewhere unobtrusive after they started faking. Nanjo didn't check whether they were dead for real, so nobody noticed.

>>5699006
>Jessica being a lesbian
I'm ok with this.
Also, the mastermind's identity has yet to be revealed.

>>5699006

but battler hadn't seen his family in 6 years and disliked his father, lets say he basically he traded his family for the woman of his dreams

i doubt that's the reason he didn't care but if anything he's getting played on again by beato just like in ep 3

>>5699036
>Three people--in other words, three bodies--went in or out. Only you and Kanon entered, and only Battler left. It has already been said in red that all people can only use their own names. Therefore, the names Erika, Battler, and Kanon can only be used by those people.

>>5699006
She may not have directly committed the murders at all.
And I'm sure Battler as much of a sucker for lesbians as the rest of us.

>>5699052
If Beato were still trolling him, I'd laugh my ass off.

As things stand, Ange is the protagonist of Umineko.... even though she's most likely... dead.

>>5699047
At this point Jessica and George are the only people that can realistically be suspected to be the master of the conspiracy.

Best bet is on Jessica. I'm still not convinced she died in Episode 2. And her phone call in Episode 4 was decidedly insane.

>>5699047
I think that Kyrie may be the mastermind (with all this "love can be a reason to kill" shit, also the willpower thing).
The murderer is obviously Shkannon. Though I don't like it.

>>5699082
>Jessica

Are you jocking?

Damn, R07 should have replaced Ange with the Eva of 1998.

>>5699006

When Battler say he didn't care?

>>5699006
>Jessica is a lesbian
That's like the silver lining to the cloud of shit that is Shkanontrice.

Another pink elephant in the room that I think everyone is afraid of is everyone on the island being dead for good.

If the ending is that only Battler survived the island people will be upset.

>>5699006
I like how he knows about "the truth" (We all know that Shannontrice is true, at least), yet acts like an ass towards the Beatrice who acts like Shannon, who he said that he used to have a crush on in EP3, and goes "BAAAWWW I CANT LOVE HER WITHOUT HER TSUNDERE FACADE I MUST RESURRECT HER TRAUMATIC MEMORIES FOR LOVE'S SAKE".

>>5699099
Post Episode 5? It's more like he never said that he did. His personality did a complete 180 and we're left wondering why.

>>5699118
See, I'd be fine with Shkanontrice -absolutely fine- if she wasn't the culprit.

If there were more to the tale then say "LOL SHE GOT RAPED(although that is unlikely) AND SHE WAS SUCH A MASSIVE SLUT THAT SHE DECIDED TO COMBINE HER MYSTERY OTAKU SKILLS WITH HER KILLING PEOPLE SKILLS SO SHE COULD USE MAGIC SO SHE COULD ENGAGE IN A NEVER ENDING GANG BANG WITH THE USHIROMIYA COUSINS"

>>5699119

That's why he did murder anyone in ep VI, right? Oh, wait he didn't.
And also he needed to proof he found the truth.


And,most importantly, we don't know "the truth", and the whole "she killed for revenge" doesn't make any sense.
There is obvious a more complex reason behind these murders.

>>5699082

let's say the murders do happen as in the epitah, if were gonna get a "good" end that would probably leave 5 people left alive if im not wrong

>>5699143
I wouldn't put it past Ryukishi07.
Remember, brain parasites.

>>5699143
The thing is, ANY motive that ANYONE can have for these murders can only EXPLAIN them, not JUSTIFY them.

If Shkanontrice is the culprit, it'll be hard at best to feel for her, even more so if everyone is dead for real at the end.

>>5699165

I don't remember any brain parasites in Higurashi.

>>5699165
>Remember, brain parasites.

Remember mysterious illness plot device x that made people go crazy?
Parasite or illness, it's the same shit.

>>5699187

Remember when you played Higurashi novels instead of watching DEEN terrible adaption?

I didn't.

Still kinda disturbed by Kanon's memory of him hanging out with Shannon and Jessica at the same time.

But whatever, that is something to worry about at a later time.

>>5699211
Jessica should just get the fuck outta dodge and head to San Francisco.

>>5699143
she can't kill for revenge. Red text.

>>5699259
She can just as easily kill for some wacky epitagh shenanigans, and that is just as bad.

>>5699268
The epitaph murders are supposed to be meaningless for hern according to ep5.
Good luck finding a "why" in this mess.

>>5699292
She wants to be seen as a witch to gain magical powers. Naturally she uses guns, knives, and perhaps even a bomb. Because that's what magical witches use. Guns, knives, and bombs.

>>5698804
So I wasn't the only one thinking he could've smashed the wall.
It's already said in EP5 they're thin enough.
Just bash it a few times, jump out of the other rooms window and it's motherfucking saving time.

>>5699384
The first thing I thought of was that he smashed through the floor, opened the door and walked the dinosaur.
But then I thought it would break the closed room definition.

I still want to know why Battler suddenly loves Baeto. Please Wizard-Hunting Wright deliver us form this love shit.

>>5699211

They'd just have to switch personalities rapidly.... I guess it could make for an interesting conversation?

>>5699468
Wasn't he leaning towards at least liking her during episodes 1-4? So after finding out the reason... he just... liked her even more...

Fuck I don't even know. I really hope there's a good explanation other than IT'S MY FAULT SHE WENT CRAZY AND KILLED MY FAMILY I FEEL SO GUILTY

>>5699384
Oh god, cannot unsee.

>>5699468

She is her ideal woman, he had mixed feeling for him since ep III and he discovered in ep V she was trying to help him all this time.


Are you one of those fag who watched the anime and then started with ep V?

>>5699468

She is his ideal woman, he had mixed feeling for her since ep III and he discovered in ep V she was trying to help him all this time.


Are you one of those fag who watched the anime and then started with ep V?

Ever tried thinking from a normal person's perspective? I makes everything seem fucking stupid. Why would they need to smash a window and jump out when they can just open the door? It's just tape holding it together, they shouldn't give a fuck. But that defeats the purpose of the mystery, so whatever.

>>5699519
I don't know about you anon, but I always go through extra precautions in my daily life just in case some invisible viewer is watching me.

>>5699516

It still feels strange the he would react to Shkanontrice (if that's the truth he reached) in such a way...? Like if it really is Shannon killing everyone because of an offhand comment Battler made...

>>5699519

Well, obviously they didn't, if the "next room over"'s tape on the window was broken. It's just a way of telling if anyone actually left the room or not. Don't think of it as literal tape.

>>5699519
They're all pieces. Only the first game did people act in a way that totally ignored the meta-world. After that all the games were just for the sake of the meta people.

>>5699519

Because ep VI was all just a big prank.

Umineko = the Sims

>>5699579
Too bad Erika pranked them back.

>>5699192
Now you'll say that there was never any decease. Yeah, sure.

>>5699574
The problem there is that Episode 1 was still a gameboard anyway.

>>5699211
I still am calling shenanigans on the whole Jessica x Shannon x Kanon relationship.

Seriously, there's something else going on here.

>>5699599

It's about things are introduced, the number of clues and how are presented.

I feel the whole "lol brain parasites" came from Anime-only viewer.
Sure, it's not the best plot device ever, but i've seen worse, and in more popular VNs.

>>5699614
Don't you mean Shannoningans?

>>5699598
And I loved every second of it.

>>5699598

Oh you

I shitted bricks.

Overall ep VI was very bad, but some moments were awesome.

>>5699638

So like every Umineko episode, then?

>>5699638
It wasn't even the end of the first twilight yet so they didn't have to die.

>>5699650

The first twilight usually happen around that night, but they always discovers the murders in the morning.

>>5699667
Yes, that dumbass maid kills people in their sleep.

Fucking whore.

>>5699603
Which means that whatever happened in Episode 1 may not have been what actually happened on the original Rokkenjima?

Here is my problem with Shkannon...it's too in-your-face, pat, locked down, obvious. It's shouted to loudly in our faces.

Remember that cheese bullshit? If you apply common sense to it, you automatically think of a round of cheese, but if you didn't apply common sense, and were completely subjective, then the answer can change. That's a big blind spot for humans, as our minds are always filling in the the blanks with common sense. Unless we're prepared for it, we'll always want to use common sense. So this cheese puzzle may have been R07 preparing us for something NOT Shkannon.

>>5699693

Yes.

Things we know about the original Rokkenjima:

1) Eva survived and recovered the head's ring.
2) The explosion occurred.
3) Battler was there.
4) Someone sent out two bottle letters either before, during, or after the incident.

...And that's really the extent of what we know.

>>5699697
I don't know.

Straight up Shkanontrice - That is, she's also the culprit - goes against the whole theme of Beato being a good guy.

Seriously, if you THINK about it, if Beato is the culprit, she's like George on fucking crack.

>>5699697
Yeah, but the real solution to the cheese puzzle was the obvious. Battler only brought it down to one cut by ignoring the rules.

>>5699705
By the way, the letters also said who died in which twilight, right?

>>5699711
Beato isn't a good, nobody ever said she was.
Just that her reasons for killing aren't revenge, hatred or greed.
That's where the whole SHE DID IT FOR LOVE come in.

There are lots of foreshadowing, like the whole connection with Maria.
What does Maria want? Why isn't she afraid of dieing during the 2 days?
Because she believe that she will go to the golden land where her mother will finally be nice to her.
Sayo has the same desire.

>>5699705

There are no Kakeras?

>>5699711
If Shkanontrice ends up being the culprit, and Ange just ends up with Battler at the end, with George, Jessica, Maria, Rosa, Krauss, Hideyoshi, Gohda, Genji, Kumasawa, Kyrie, Rudolf, Eva, Nanjo, and Natsuhi all dead, I will rage.

If they go for a bullshit AND NOW OUR SOULS CAN MOVE ON end, I will also rage.

At the very least, I want the innocent people to leave the world not with acceptance towards their killer, but with condemnation.

Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

>>5699741

The letters were ep 1 and 2

>>5699741

The letters cover Ep1 and 2, so yes, they do.

>>5699622
Wait, Erika was in the anime?

>>5699761
If bu Kakera you mean fanfiction, there is.

>>5699761

Nope, only books.

>>5699761
They are stories

>>5699782

Why can't both exist?

>>5699787

Because magic isn't real.

>>5699791

Parallels dimension with no ties with reality whatsoever =/= magic.

And how did you explain the scenes with Ange and female R07?

Well, if Ange is dead, Eva is dead, and everyone's dead and there are no kakeras...

What's the bloody point again?

>>5699802
Ange and Hachijou talk about some story, what is difficult to understand?

Okay.
To sum up: The only real characters are Ange, Amakusa and Eva, from 1998.
Ep 1-6 are forgeries, and are not real.
The real Rokkenjima is the one where Eva solved the epitaph, became the head and survived.

Did I understand it?

>>5699802
>Parallels dimension with no ties with reality whatsoever

Pretty much the definition of magic to me, dude. Anything impossible = magic. A magical alternate reality where witches, demons, and duct tape can frolic together = magic.

>And how did you explain

Ange's as delusional as her cousin, bro. Ep4 didn't make you realize that already?

>>5699825
Just as there are multiple pasts, there can be multiple fragments. The Fragment where Eva survived and Ange lives is just a single possible Fragment.

>>5699705
And there are 20+ bank cells with 100 millions in each, with the keys sent to all involved.

>>5699802
There is absolutely no foreshadowing whatsoever about parallel universes or whatever.
There is though lots and lots and lots of LOLMETA-FICTION everyfuckingwhere.

The true culprit is obvious.

>>5699825
3-6 are the forgeries, 1 and 2 were the real letters written by "Ushiromiya Maria" aka Beatrice.

>>5699821

Ange is the main character. The point of the story is her figuring out what actually happened on that island 12 years ago.

The point of the story within the story is about proving the truth of what happened on Rokkenjima in 1986.

Different stories, same overall goal.

>>5699825

Yeah, that's pretty much it.

Bern told Ange she would 'look' for a Kakera in which her family survived. But she didn't promise one exists. Lambda warned Ange that even IF Bern found one, Ange herself would never see it.

Perhaps we could interpret the 'Golden Land' as being the Kakera in which everyone survives. But it can't exist normally, it's going to take some kind of miracle to create it. Ange is looking for that miracle as she reads through the stories.

Was there any evidence found of people's deaths on the real Rokkenjima?
I don't want them pulling something like "they weren't really dead, they escaped and were just in hiding for years"

>>5699841

Which is of course where the gold ACTUALLY is. It was moved off the island and converted into cash years ago.

>>5699859

Maria's jawbone was found and Eva seems to believe that everyone else is dead.

>>5699843
No non-human animals are significant to the plot!

>>5699868
The gold is real and on the island. Confirmed in red bro. Quit talkin out yo ass

>>5699855
The issue is that she CAN'T figure out what happened, and also that she is dead.

Seriously, it's been 12 years since the incident, her theories are as good as my personal theory that a flock of militant seagulls tested a neutron bomb on the island.

Hachijou not just writes stories and they become truths. She simply observes the games through the eyes of someone/Reader. These games are played in the different Fragments.
Otherwise explain how can she write stories and don't know the real answers.

>>5699897
Think of it like this.
She looks at someone play a game, a RPG or something.
And after they finished, she does a retranscription of everything that happened.

>>5699868
~20 cells are about 2 billions. Gold's worth was estimated by George to be around 20 billions. Also it was said that 100 million is the sum average salary man earns working his entire life, therefore each of this cells can allow someone live without working for the whole life.

>>5699923
That's what I said. But it in no way denies any Fragment theory.

>>5699843
Umikinzotrice, right?

>>5699953
It's not about discarding your fragment theory though, it's not a battle you know.
It's about understanding how Umineko works.

>>5699852
>3-6 are the forgeries, 1 and 2 were the real letters written by "Ushiromiya Maria" aka Beatrice.

What is the proof that 1+2 aren't forgeries, exactly?

>>5700004
Ange compared the letters to Beatrice's writing from Maria's grimoire.

>>5700014

That (kind of) confirms the same person wrote the messages and in Maria's diary.

It doesn't proof that the person writing them was not lying.

Just passing by.

The first closed room can be ignored if you assume that Kanon is Kinzo. Take in account that the seal was used and that Rudolf obviously wasn't acting, so just some people knew - if Kanon went to save Battler, he had to know and therefore has a 1/4 chance to be the new Kinzo(otherwise Natsuhi took his ring or the ring is in Kuwadorian and either Eva or Rosa managed to solve it - Eva didn't have time though, while Rosa having already solved it to begin with explains a lot in the game)
Were Kanon the Kinzo, he is not part of "everyone as concluded by Erika.
The other part, well, what about "Battler slammed the door of the closet too hard and accidentally hit Kanon with them at a very wrong angle, unconsiously killing him"?

>>5700036
*one-winged eagle seal on the letter, not the tape one, I mean

>>5700028
There are two versions. it is obvious that at least one contains lies. However, by being connected to someone who was connected to the event, it may contain some truth. There also exists certain truths, where the rest is unknown and can be filled in with noise. While you may not be able to find out the truth about the noise, there are certain truths you can know.

>>5699548
>Like if it really is Shannon killing everyone because of an offhand comment Battler made...

Didn't something similar happen in higurashi, with shmion and whatnot?

>>5699983
>It's about understanding how Umineko works.

The problem is, the whole Ange plot simple crumple if you deny kakeras

How did Hachijou know Ange was going to die?

>>5700101
Because that's what she plans on writing.

>>5700077

Shion massacre was caused by Mion telling her about the doll.

But it was really different, she killed for hate and revenge, and it the end she completely regretted it and wished for a world where that didn't happen.

>>5700101
Simple deduction. She's now the sole heir of ALOT OF FUCKING MONEY. If she dies, that money goes to the next of kin, that being Kasumi and the rest of the Sumadera family. And Okonogi would probably like to have free reign over the company, rather than having to toady to some 18 year old girl.

>>5700101
Because she wrote about it.
She implied pretty strongly you know.

>>5700120
>Simple deduction.

How do you deduce how a scene is going to be played, the dialogs and everything?

>>5700101
Also, how does she know the truth? A little post crime scene investigation wouldn't allow you to come to that conclusion.

Course, it could be that Ange didn't die in episode 4, and then Juuza ends up being Battler or someone, but I can't buy that.

>>5700118
True, but it was still something apparently insignificant that triggered a massacre.

>>5700132
What makes you so sure that it really happened that way?

Without Kakeras, the only characters we have left alive are Juuza, Okonogi, and Author Bitch.

Yaaaaaaaaay.

>>5700101

Everything that happens to Ange makes sense if you accept that's she's as schizophrenic as Maria.

And yes, Hachijou plans to write about Ange dying, but we don't actually know if she does or not.

>>5700142

The fact that she got everything right until now?

>>5700154

Fun thing about Amakusa: His first name can be written to mean "13".

Both "0715" and "1129" add up to "13".

He can't be uninvolved with all this.

Watch as we get an Inception end

AND THEY ALL LIVED HAPPILY EVER AFTER

BUT WAIT A TIC

THAT DAMN SPINNING TOP

IT DIDN'T STOP SPINNING

>>5700155
>Everything that happens to Ange makes sense if you accept that's she's as schizophrenic as Maria.

Yes, but that would make the plot completely retarded, ep iv would end up being a filler since NO KAKERAS ANGE, FUCK YOU.

>>5700154

And all those fat old people on Niijima!

>>5700165

The only decent explanation would be that he's Battler

>>5700165
And Jessica's name translates to Blood Princess, I fail to see your point.

>>5700185

Ep4 isn't filler. You just have to imagine that Ange is talking to herself whenever she's talking to her furniture, and besides, the stuff she finds out about Maria/Rosa and the 1986 events are still important.

This way, her journey becomes rather tragic, since there is NO WAY to bring her family back, and Amakusa's been ordered to murder her...

>>5700191

Yes, but only if he has amnesia.

>>5700197

...Which is probably also intention, but whatever.

My point is that Ryukishi LOVES playing with numbers. Hell, someone else figured out how to write "07151129" as "Asumu Ushiromiya".

>>5700197
>Jessica's name translates to Blood Princess

HOLY BALLS

I THINK WE JUST STUMBLED UPON THE BIGGEST CLUE IN UMIXEGO SO FAR

>>5700222

"Intentional", damn it.

>>5700197

Any other translation?

>>5700226

BLOOD PRINCESS Aka "princess of the Ushimoya Blood"
Because Beato is the princess of the Ushimoya, but not by blood.

>>5700231

Shannon means Plan.

>>5700185
>NO KAKERAS ANGE, FUCK YOU
Did you read it? That's basically what Lambda said to her.

MEANWHILE, IN 1986...

>>5700258
That's what he promised to Shannon.

>>5700226
Oh, don't worry, I'm sure nothing will come of it.

I'd pay cash money for a series where Eva and Ange were badass buisnesswomen being awesome and stuff.

>>5700255


Yes, that Ange, she's doing everything for the other Ange.

I still thinking the biggest hint is in this song

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wydVCUL9QLg

>>5700255

God, I love that face. It's like she's so happy that she's forgotten to breathe.

>>5700290

Have we ever seen any other Ange?

>>5700299

Because of Kakeras

I don't even think Meta-Battler really exists.

As for Piece-Battler, well....

His last words were most likely "Shannon you fucking bit-"

>>5700296
Battler was twelve, he had other shit going on in his life than remember a maid who had a crush on him.

Shannon was a very selfish women who is burning in hell, if a hell exists.

>>5700327
>Shannon was a very selfish women who is burning in hell, if a hell exists.

It's extremely implicit that our "Shannon" is just another personality and the owner of the original body is gone.

>>5700327
>>5700347
It's also implied that she is still alive.

>>5700355

When?

>>5700347
The original owner may be the blond person in the EP7's portrait.

Ideal ending: George dies; everyone lives happily ever after

I'm ok with this ending: Battler is Juuza, and he has an obsession with money to care for blind moe Jessica. Ange gets closure and a bit of her family back, becomes the next head.

Meh ending: Ange realizes that it can't be helped, Ange and Juuza(who isn't Battler) fuck like rabbits, Ange becomes the next head.

FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU- ending: There was a survivor. That survivor is the killer. Ange forgives the killer instead of blowing her brains out.

>>5700364
The letters of episode 1 and 2.
Someone had to have written them.

>>5700371

No tits and blond hairs?

>>5700299
Briefly.

>>5700381

The Beatrice personality?

>>5700371

Too old.

>>5700384
And if Shkannon is true, how come Kanon doesn't have tits?

>>5700381
The letters exist, but the killer could have sent them before her death.

And with someone like Sayo, I'm sure the moment she realized her mass murder gambit did NOT make her a witch, she would have blown her freaking brains out.

>>5700404

You can hide tits.

>>5700390
>>5700384
It's kinda odd that the golden crest is at her leg, like Shannon and at the collar, like Kanon.

But whatever, she could also be the original Beatrice, which is more likely.

>>5700411
>murder gambit did NOT make her a witch

The culprit is doing it for love.

>>5700414
But Shannon's boobs are gigantic.
You can't hide them easily.

>>5700418
>She

He.

>>5700404
Because Shannon flat and bald. No wonder Battler prefers meta-Beato.

>>5700424

Then Battler is gay and made a promise to Kanon

didn't he say his first love was a man in ep v?

>>5700419
Yes, yes, but how does killing everyone earn her love?

If you paid attention to episode 6, the killer wants to open the golden land, where all her wildest dreams can come true, that's why she's buddy buddy with Maria.

The truth of the matter is, once she finished wiping her fiance's blood off of her hands and brushed her best friend's brains off her uniform, she would realize RUH ROH LOOKS LIKE I KILLED EVERYONE FOR NO REASON.

You can hide small tits, and medium sized ones would still show but they'd be about the size of small ones. Big ones, however, like Shannon's, wouldn't be able to be hidden.

...Wait.

Suppose Sayo is a man.

Now, the killer wanted to be accepted as a witch, right?

What MAN talks about how he did some PRETTY WACKY THINGS to be ACCEPTED back in the day?

>>5700453
In addition, what two characters are stated to have extensive gun training?

Oh dear....

>>1738846
http://www.lawl.us/Ki
http://www.lawl.us/Ki
http://www.lawl.us/Ki
http://www.lawl.us/Ki
http://www.lawl.us/Ki

>>5700453
Them tits is real, babby, them tits is reaaallll.

>>5700461
I think Hideyoshi has been in the military...

Shkannon is a flat woman that puts on stuffing to appear more womanly when playing her female part, and hides her almost non-existant breasts when she pretends being kanon.

>>5700453
Juuzatrice?

Really?

>>5700479
Well, there is foreshadowing for that. Jessica stops Battler from touching Shannon's teets, after all.

Meaning that this all could have been avoided if Rance were the protagonist.

>>5700430
Because they don't want to reason about what they consider a masterpiece and be hurt when they realize it was all useless.
"By that argument.........it really isn't a stretch to say it's like love between shy elementary or middle school-aged kids. ......Even though they really do want it, they don't have the courage to reveal their feelings, so they wait uncomfortably for the other person to confess......and by the time summer ends, nothing's happened."
"Heheh, sometimes they'll even go out with a different person. That's what my first love was like, ihihi."
Along with these one-sided feelings they can't express, they lament the passage of a summer which will never come again, and the days of their youth end.


tvtropes stated that Battler was saying this, so I checked, but no.

>>5700310
Meta-Battler doesn't exist, the best proof is that he exists on the same level as Erika.

>>5700494
I knew that from the beggining.

>>5700494
But that would be easy modo.

>>5700485
Juuza is actually Battler

>>5700494
If, in retrospect, that scene with the tits represented the ultimate struggle between good and evil, with Shannon allowing Battler to touch her tits being a subtle rebellion of good, and Jessica denying Battler Shannon'stits being the ultimate triumph of evil, I will applaud Ryukushi.

>>5700479
Wasn't it said how Shannon's bust had "exploded" during Battler's six year absence? Or was that Jessica?
(Or am I just making up memories on my own?)

>>5700525
Tits usually do get larger over that long of a time for the age range she would have gone through, well for girls with big tits anyway.

>>5700522
Battler: I MUST TOUCH THE TITS
Shannon: YOU CAN TOUCH THE TITS
Jessica: YOU MUSN'T TOUCH THE TITS

GOOD VS EVIL VS TITS

Wait... guys... repeat after me....

White. Haired. Ange.

>>5700539
I meant to add "suddenly", but yeah you are otherwise right.

Now I know why Meta-Battler is an idiot!

The dude never existed in the first place!

>>5700552
White. Haired. Ange...

>>5700552
Except Kyrie is fucking hot and Ange is disgusting meat and chub.

>>5700552
White Haired Jessica would be awesome. But Ange is pig-disgusting no matter what.

>>5700552
>>5700571
You lost me.

Here me out on this one.
No one in the Ushiromiya family has red hair Ok well perhaps except Eva who has a somewhat natural tint for a westerner other than Battler.
I figured that Asumu had red hair and that Battler got it from her, but this now, Ange got the same red hair as her brother, yet they "don't" share the same mother.

How can this be?

>>5700603
Maybe a hidden true to be revealed?

>>5700603
Slowpoke.

Kyrie is both of their mother, most likely, and Kyrie as a young lass could have had red hair that went white.

Which means that sooner or later, we have to accept that Battler dyes.

When Kyrie was young, he had redhair. Now she is an old woman and has white hair.

>>5700255
Godammit, that scene gave me chills.

This thread is not bumping anymore.

>>5700627
I'll make a new one.

You know guys, hair colors don't come necessarily to your parents.

>Red hair
>White hair
Turn your mind into steel, lose red, gain white , get a tan

New thread
>>5700644

>>5700638
I don't think you know how genetics work.

Yes I got what you're saying, but still, that sounded just bad.

>>5700617
FUCKING MIRAGECOORDINATOR NOW PLAYS IN YOUR HEAD

The one thing that really bothers me about the seals is, why not just take the door off it's hinges / break the window to escape (besides being entirely retarded outside the meta world context)?

I'm almost entirely sure this is going to end up being solved by some wordplay using "Kinzo" who was excluded.

>>5700878
I dont think you should treat the tapes as literal tapes, just a way to confirm that that door/windows wasnt opened during time period x
otherwise it'd be easy enough to figure a way to cheat with them