/jp/ - Otaku Culture

It was all done by magic.

Super-intelligent, bio-weaponized seagulls committed all the murders. Kinzo was breeding them at the hidden mansion. The reason you don't hear seagulls is because they are all plotting to kill you.

The head seagull has gone insane and believes itself to be a very moe witch.

Too bad productive threads won't last.

Who killed Nanjo in the third game?

When you throw in this many supernatural elements, its not going to be about the murders in the end.

But I'm hoping.

>>5690772
Yes.
Magic solves the problem.

>>5690762
So guys, I heard that Shannon is really Kanon

>>5690818
Hideyoshi. He killed Kyrie and Rudolf. Then he either fainted from wounds or faked his death and killed Nanjo.

Then either 1)He dies of the sustain wounds from before or 2) Jessica somehow kills him or he screws up when trying to kill her.

The reader is the culprit
Yes, that's right, ALL OF YOU.

If you tried that, you would soon realize that Shkannon and Shkannontrice are the correct answer.

>>5690818
The survivor of the Hideyoshi/Kyrie+Rudolf standoff.

'Bomb' is a gas leak, which is why Rudolf and Hideyoshi are often eliminated early (smokers), why the furnace was lit (to cover the smell, eventually ignite the gas) and why the police found nothing suspicious to convict Eva with.

A thread that try to solve the mystery but throw out the correct answer from the get-go won't go far you know.

What happened to that board devoted to this shit? /seacats/ or something, right?

>>5690891
Yep. That's where the new Kanon 0 theory came from. Isn't that a piece of work?

>>5690818
>>5690840
Better question: Who wrote the number on the parlor door?

Also, I know people hate having their pet theories denied, but when you think about how Kyrie, Nanjo, Kumasawa and all of the other people received those bank cards, doesn't that all but confirm that they're not the mastermind?

If "Beatrice" is the one who actually controls all the gold of the "Golden Land," then doesn't that mean that she set up those accounts to buy off people or to bribe them into doing certain things?

Questions that I've had since episode 1 and for that I've never seen a good answer:

Why does the culprit want to have the murders appear "occult?"

Why does Beatrice want them to solve the Epitaph?

>>5690942
Because LOLGOLDEN LAND ALL LOVER WILL BE REUNITED AND SHIT
For the second question, because LOLBOMB

>>5690913
That doesn't really make sense. Why bribe someone to do something and then give the money to their family members?

If anything, it seems like they were aware that the murders were going to occur and sent the money out because they weren't sure they were going to survive. If they were in collaboration with the culprit, then surely they'd think their cooperation would guarantee their safety to survive and use the money themselves?

>>5690957
>For the second question, because LOLBOMB

That makes no more sense than anything we could come up with in the first arc. If the culprit wants to kill everyone, why does she give them an out in the Epitaph?

For that matter, does the Epitaph even matter? The bomb still goes off in Episodes 3 and 5.

I will repost this then

Ep1 the first twilight.
Nanjo checked the bodies quickly in order to make sure that no one else did anything, he has some authority after all, but he was also quick to say that it was outside of his field so that they wouldn't start rely on him for further details.
Other than him Hedeyoshi was the only one who checked the bodies, Eva made sure that everyone else didn't crowd the whole place in a way that could disturb things.
Natsuhi wanted to cover their faces in respect for the dead, but Eva freaked and quickly put a stop to it arguing how it was a murder scene, and Nanjo quickly jumped in and agreed in order for no further questions to be asked.

And now I don't know what Ryu07 will do to Wright's rules, but
>11. A servant must not be chosen by the author as the culprit. This is begging a noble question. It is a too easy solution. The culprit must be a decidedly worth-while person — one that wouldn't ordinarily come under suspicion.

Nanjo is the mastermind, Hideyoshi and Eva are his minions, the servants quite possibly works as his helpers and the first twilight was a farce, or at least partly.

In the end I bet this is wrong, but it's something I thought of previously.
>one that wouldn't ordinarily come under suspicion.
I believe my this theory kind of violate this.
Kinzo's old friend without a family bond with the family is too easy to suspect.

>>5691004
The story broke Wright's rules in the first episode.

Nanjo is likely in league with the culprit but not the culprit himself (the people most likely to be in league with the culprit, ie Kumasawa, Nanjo and Maria, tend to die on the same twilights across different games.)

A few things that are confirmed
There is an explosion (the Rokkenjima Explosion accident)
The deaths of the explosion has been confirmed in red to be murder.
There are deaths not by the explosion who also are murder.
Because Battler sinned 6 years prior to the game people die.

Who is responsible for the explosion?
If the explosion went off in order to murder people, then why murder people prior to the explosion?
How did Battler sin, what did it affect?

>>5691079
>If the explosion went off in order to murder people, then why murder people prior to the explosion?

Easiest answer: The person who sets off the explosion and the person(s) murdering people are completely unrelated.

As for the Dine rules, you can get around the servants rule easily by having them only cause fake deaths and not real ones.

Bomb and solving the epitaph = Kinzo's test, his family is made of failure and it's his last FIGHT TO SURVIVE OR BECOME ASH trial.

Murder = DID meido follow a ceremony to go to LALALA land because she is crazy like this.

>>5691079
>How did Battler sin, what did it affect?

People think it's that he forgot the promise he made to Shannon, but I think it's something else - something similar and related, but ultimately different.

As we all know, "Beatrice" is created because Battler tells Shannon (who likes him) about his ideal woman, to which she responds by burying his desire and her own unrequited love into a second personality.

This is his sin, and the reason it's his sin is because he was LYING. I don't have it saved, but I'm pretty sure it's mentioned at one point that as a kid, he lied to the (unspecified, but obviously Shannon) girl he liked about the sort of woman he wants. This is the catalyst that creates "Beatrice" and indirectly causes all the murders of 6 years later.

battler's sin was refusing kinzo's inheritance as the next legitimate heir

>>5691004
>Kinzo's old friend without a family bond with the family is too easy to suspect.
True, I'm still hoping it's one of the family members for this reason.

Nanjo always seemed too suspicious to me. In one of the games, Battler says something like "everybody here lives together and is family," but he conveniently forgets Nanjo, the guy who is neither servant nor family. Even if Nanjo was friends with Kinzo when he was alive, he probably doesn't give a shit about Krauss and Natsuhi. (Although I believe Natsuhi said she paid him and everybody else off in EP5, but still).

Anyway, it's just too easy.

>>5691112
>Dine rules

Whether we like it or not, Love is a central theme of the story. The reason why we got all those scenes with Shannon/George and Kanon/Jessica in episode 1 + 2 breaks what Wright says about mysteries not devoting time to side-affairs like romance.

The first twilight was a chaotic fumble that occurred because Krauss accidentally let slip how Kinzo was really dead AND how the family seal had not been recovered. Shannon stumbled upon the argument and was caught up in the crossfire; she barely survives but is mostly unconscious and really wounded. The sound attracts Nanjo, Genji, (who both know about Kinzo) and Hideyoshi; the three of them decide to cover for the first twilight under the pretense of the Epitaph since they don't know who killed who. At the same time, Nanjo confides in Hideyoshi about Kinzo's death (there may even be overt evidence at the crime scene).

Shannon had taken Kinzo's Epitaph quest by dictation in the past and, when she found the family seal, decided that she could use it to free herself and Kanon from employment (and from their furniture status). She occasionally plays with Maria under the guise of "the Endless Witch" so being Beatrice and giving the Epitaph challenge to Maria is easy. She didn't know that Kinzo had really died, though, until she heard Nanjo admit it to Hideyoshi.

She comes to completely, but still heavily wounded, the next day and pulls herself out of the storehouse. She stumbles across Kinzo's corpse which Natushi was holding onto so to prepare a proper funeral once the seal could be found and tries to give him a proper burial by fire in the furnace. Kanon is attracted to the room later by the freely swinging furnace grate and falls victim to a deadly trap Krauss laid to protect the body. Shannon confronts Nanjo while he is trying to treat Kanon, but while Jessica is out of the room, and then prepares a letter to plant on Maria.

>>5691398
The letter gets Genji and Nanjo out of the study and Shannon as Beatrice confronts them again, this time getting a true confession from both of them and, at the same time, tells them about the first twilight. Nanjo and Genji kill themselves out of guilt and disgrace; Kumasawa kills herself as well.

With one final letter, Shannon gets Natsuhi out in the open and learns why Kinzo's death was never reported, such that the tragedy could occur. Natsuhi just didn't want the family to tear itself apart if neither the gold nor the family seal could be found. She asks Shannon to shoot her.

And then they all die. I originally suggested this was Kinzo's last act from beyond the grave, in case he died and no suitable heir was named Beatrice might get back all that is hers. Instead, I'm going for the furnance exploding because it was never properly taken care of after Shannon used it.

>>5691270
Yet again, Ryukishi will most likely alter Dine's rules, and possibly more than he altered Knox's rules.
He even chose not to include Knox's 4th (it was the 4th right?) at all.

If Wizard-Hunting Wright makes an appearance then we can be sure to see Dine's rules.
They will also most likely work just like Knox and stand correct for all games retrospectly.

Kanon is involved with the First Twilight murder in EP2.

He gives Maria a brand new piece of candy after seeing it crushed.
Corpses appear afterwards stuffed with delicious candy.

Why would Kanon have candy on him at that point? The same reason he was lugging giant garden sacks around at the beginning of EP1: preparing the murder scene. Also the large volume of candy used was bought specifically for the murder, as there was too much to expect the kids to eat on the short time they were there. Besides, they had a gourmet chef on the island, so why would they want the kids to fill up on junk food?

This does present something interesting. Though the murders were pre-meditated, the whole 'Candy and Happy Halloween for Maria' part seems focused on the events between Rosa and Maria before they got to the island. Therefore, it's likely that they were added at the last moment. That would mean that the culprit would be one of the family members heading to Rokkenjima. That way, the large volume of candy could be transported on the plane/boat with them.

>>5691564
The problem here is that Kyrie, Rudolf, Eva and Hideyoshi all died during the first twlight there. I doubt that any of them would've used a body double. (why bother adding more baggage of candy if you're already trying to conceal one or more fake corpses?)

That leaves Rosa and George. Rosa would need to be REALLY messed up to have planned the stuff with the candy, considering her reaction to Maria attitude towards it both on and off the island. On the other hand, George would be a complete psychopath to eviscerate his mother and father and violate their corpses merely on a whim of watching his auntie's actions.

tl;dr It looks like whoever did it either had Batman like prep-time or Joker like sadism and insanity.

So what theories does people have about motives?
There are a bunch of theories on what people does the killing and how, the reasons why however are a lot more vague.

>>5691910
Why?
Gold.

Is it true that Ruikishi confirmed that Erika is vital to the plot, as in the plot is not possible without her?
If so then what does that make her?
Ryukishi said that episode 1-4 was enough, and considering how Erika is never mentioned in those, then there must be some indirect vague connection to her that's still vital.

Is this correct or is it just ordinary bullshit?

>>5692159
Culprit X heard on the radio that a girl had drowned close to Rokkenjima and impersonated her.

>>5692306
>Culprit X heard on the radio that a girl had drowned close to Rokkenjima and impersonated her.
But umm, that didn't happen in episode 1-4.
If she is vital to the plot, and if the plot is to be solved by with only episode 1-4, then it must exist a connection in episode 1-4.

However, Erika never made an appearance in those episodes, neither in name nor person.

>>5692159
No.
She is not vital for the plot.
But her existence itself is a large hint to solve the mystery, to quote Ryukishi.

>>5692385
That's why the Erika ball and such things exists.

But it will bring a lot of Shkannonfags and other things here, so avoiding to talk about it would be the best.

Hey I know this has nothing to do with the thread but could someone post the Kinzo Jetpack images?

>>5692420

whats erika ball?

i think nanjo's grandaughter is the only way she would be mentioned in the previous episodes but its not likely true

>>5692420
>Erika ball

>>5692503
?

>>5692507
Some people "don't really like" this theory.
That's why I said to let it go, to avoid a shitstorm.

>>5692749
Who gives a shit? Just post it.

>>5690840
can't be an accident

My one and only question.
Why does rudolf never seem to get his "Final confession" made to battler before either he dies or battler dies.(more interested in what the confession is)

Too tired to do it completely.
I hope that someone will complete it.
It is a theory which started because there is a lot of strange points about Erika, and which say that "Erika" is, in fact, a title who is linked to one, or many people, and can change according to who is the detective, or anything else.
So for example, in ep6, "Erika" would be Genji or Erika in the end.
It allows to solve the problem of Erika killing people when she wasn't here in 1-4 (and so cannot help to find the culprit) and the "17 people" of ep6 in the end, among other things.

A variante of ghost-Erika, in one way.

>>5692789
My theory? He's going to reveal to Battler that Kyrie is his mother, and also he is going to reveal to Jessica that he is her father. The first half is all but confirmed, the second half would explain why he is worried about being killed.

>>5692789
Because the reader would know what he is talking about, and Ruikishi like to make us wait.

INB4
OKONOGI BEING PART OF THE VILLIAN....AGAIN!
i have this slimy feeling he's involved with the past but indirectly.

>>5692822
>Okonogi and a cache of mercs storm the island
Ok, well, I guess that explains how no one is guilt-
>Jessica puts on a beret
SON OF A BITCH

>>5692839
Y'know the merc idea is what I think happens in the end of Episode 4 when Ange supposedly dies.

Am i the only one confused that everything didnt end with ep 6?

Battler won, thus proving he knows everything. So why hasnt he been allowed to go home?

>>5692914
I've been pushing for that idea since Episode 4, and nobody bothered to take me seriously.

I wouldn't put past kinzo.

>>5692789
The confession has to do with Battler being Kyrie's child. That's why he says with him and Kyrie that "This is about us as a family".

Battler is Kyrie's son.
Jessica is Asumu's daughter. Her other name is Battler.

>>5693217

Battler doesn't get to go home. He's dead.

Not once has he ever realized this.

>>5693255
You mean, some mercs rush in when kasumi is beating ange's shit and kill them all including ange?

Or is it something else?

Because if that's it, then the merc is amakusa.

>>5693217
He doesn't know everything for one, just the secret of Beatrice. Secondly: There is no home for him, he's dead Jim.

>>5693365
Wasn't this all made pretty obvious in EP6, when Amakuza was on the phone and was like "YEAH THANKS FOR THAT SNIPER RIFLE, ALSO SURE I'LL KILL ANGE TOO"

>>5693391
Yeah, that's what I was saying.
It's pretty obvious by now.

>>5693358

So what happens once this is all said in done.

Magic doesnt exist after all. So does that mean he actually wont go to the golden land forever?

Or he will and live happily ever after with his waifu and ange is to suffer alone?

>>5693409
Isn't it a shame that Amakuza didn't find TRUE LOVE and run off together with Ange?

>>5693358
It is odd that the fact that he's dead has never come up.

I guess it has to do with what the meta world actually is.

What's the solution to EP2 murders of Nanjo and Kumasawa? I heard it had been done and it involved some sort of reaction.

>>5693391
But he didn't indicate entirely that he was going to through with it. Not that I like Amakusa, it's real weak speculation anyway.
>>5692806

This is confirmed? I'll believe it, but where?

>>5693426
Yeah, pretty sad.

>>5693426
No romance, motherfucker.

>>5693437
Hmm, they don't seem to tackle it very often, he does know that he continually dies, however, as he is essentially in a Purgatory and is in some fictional world, where Magic is operating, I don't think that he really has much to question.

Since for him the games are all just Unresolved Possibilities Existing In Parallel, it is possible that there is one of them where he does live. I think that if there is an EP8, it will offer that sort of ending.

For the actual murders, we can run through possible solutions to probably all but Game 4, because the Chronology of Game 4 is very difficult.

Something useful is that they do record the conversation-- which means we do know there IS in fact a recorder on the island that can be used with various noise tricks.

>>5690762
I would watch the fuck out of that show.

>>5693455
About Battler being Kyrie's son?

>>>/rs/You_are_not_Ushiromiya_Asumu's_son

Kyrie and Asumu had their children at the exact same time.

>>5693482

I can agree with this.

I see us getting a battler lives ending. Because what would be come of ange? It would be too depressing for her side of the story. And well shit for everyone else as well.

>>5693483
"Batora!! How do toasters work??"

"Uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhh...!! Theres a a device X which captures the power of electricity and radiates heat!! Repeat it! Its an electical toaster!!"

With lots of pointing at things and crying.

>>5693500
then who was Asumu son?, she had one without fail.

>>5693541
Asumu's son was the real stillbirth. He's dead, Jim.

Unless you think he's actually Jessica or some shit.

>>5693534
the three of them would be really good together, would make the best show on tv.

>>5693549
but they said they she had a son without fail, or are you just guessing that?

>>5693534
Oh my god

Someone fund it

>>5693475


Do we know this dude's name yet?

>>5693560
i think Rudolf real confession is that Asumu' is not dead, and we will get too see her

>>5693570
Almost centainly Van Dine. Google S S Van Dine

>>5693593
Tohya

>>5693437

The Meta-World's official name is Purgatorio, remember?

It's the world of the dead.

>>5693600
what dose that mean?

Run-through of Episode 1. No Shakannon.

Before the first twilight, we last see:

Krauss, Rudolph, Kyrie, and Rosa are in discussion.
Gouda is solving a crossword puzzle.
Kanon is offering tea to Genji.
Kamasuwa, Nanjo, and Natsuhi are sleeping.
Battler, Jessica, and George are playing cards next to a sleeping Maria.

Victims of the First Twilight:
Gouda, Shannon, Rudolph, Kyrie, Krauss. Rosa
No deaths confirmed in Red.
Possible for any of them to be alive.
Theory: Krauss kills Rosa, Rudolph, and Kyrie. Method: Poison. He then kills Gouda, method, violent--he is the blood in the Dining Hall. With the help of Shannon he carries the bodies to the Shed, the two of them play dead.

Mark on the Door.

The mark on the door means "we are still in this room, make sure we can get out." it is a signal to the accomplices. It also lets Nanjo know to not permit thorough inspection.

Genji arranges for this, either Natsuhi slips him the key to the lock, or Genji puts on a different lock and gives Natsuhi a different key. The door is later unlocked and Krauss and Shannon exit.

>>5693701
Krauss waits in the guest bedroom and instructs Shannon to paint the mark on the door after he leaves, he kills both Eva and Hideoyoshi and leaves through the window.

The Sign on the door means:

"Left through window, lock it when you get in."

Natsuhi or Genji or Nanjo arrange for this to be done.

After this, Krauss or Shannon take the corpse to the boiler room. Kanon was poisoned earlier in the Kitchen, he realizes that he is dying. When he arrives in the boiler room, Krauss has already left.

His dying monologue, about the NO ONE WINS option in Roulette is spoken, he, realizing he is not going to live, sabotauges the boiler room. It is now rigged to explode, the pressure will cause an explosion at midnight on the last day.

The "survivors" barricade themselves in the study. Too many people are in there for Natsuhi and Genji to control, the letter is read and Maria, Genji, Nanjo, and Kumasawa are forced out.

Krauss then begins to kill the survivors. Shannon seizes the opportunity and kills Krauss before he can kill Maria. She wants her revenge on the entire family-- assuming that she is Beatrice-- having been raped by Kinzo and having lived the life of a servant, with George forcing her into marriage. In this case, she was abandoned by Battler and no longer wants to live. She leaves Maria with a letter to plant for Natsushi. It reveals that Krauss is dead. She tells Maria to call the survivors

>>5693806
Survivors enter the room, Natsuhi reads the letter and dashes off ready to kill Shannon who foiled their scheme and killed her husband.

Shannon gets the drop on Natsuhi, kills Natsuhi, and before we can see any further resolution, the boiler room detonates and everyone remaining dies.

>>5693819
>>5693806

I always interpreted the fact that we could see the faces on the bodies of Krauss and Shannon as that they were indeed dead.

Meh.

>>5693859
It does however, say that the faces were covered with makeup.

So, it could be that they just cover half the faces with bloody makeup.

For Gouda, I don't think it was even possible to make him look at all like the others, which is why I think his death was unique.

Something I don't like about Umineko in general is that guns are clearly used. But no one ever seems to hear them.

seems to me he also deliberately changes schedules for some reason

>>5693888

Like when? Please elaborate.

>>5693906
I am fairly sure that Genji is something of an unwilling accomplice and that his real sympathies lie with Beatrice-- if she (Jessica or Shannon) manages to get into a position of power, Genji will manipulate things to facilitate her plan of revenge.

I also think that Genji, if Beatrice is "winning" is willing to die/commit suicide. It may be guilt if he knew about Kinzo's abusive relationship with Beatrice. It may be some other reason. But I think short of Murder, Genji is basically serving as the Real Beatrice's servant.

Kumasawa is similar.

Hence Ronove and Virgilia.

>>5693906
Curious. Do you think Krauss would intentionally plan something nefarious to have happened during the first twilight?

well the door and window were closed right? how would krauss leave? someone would have to be hiding in the room like shannon but that doesn't matter because the chain is cut before everyone else gets there

>>5694005
The window is only confirmed locked later.

So the trick is, they go in, and after cutting the chain, one of them locks the window. Suddenly we can get red text saying the window is closed and its true-- but it happens AFTER. Similar to the trick when Kinzo leaves the study.

Makeup pic 1 attached-- I remember way more of these in each game.

>>5694043
It seems to me that you're taking that makeup line a bit too literally.

>>5694043

i think hes just describing how bad the scene was and that "make up" was all their blood and shit

Everyone always assumes that the money sent out was sent out to accomplices. What if it was sent out to close family members who would lose someone to the tragedy? As far as we know, everyone who had a relative that died there but survived themselves received money.

I'd take that as the only answer if we had someone who didn't receive money, but we don't. Everyone Ange visited received money.

>This thread is for actually solving the mystery and not some Shkannon vs Shkannontrice vs Jessitrice as that shit goes nowhere.
>implying you can solve the mystery while ignoring shkanonnontrice
>implying you can can solve the murders without acknowledging the murderer

Kinzo committed all of the murders, it's been proven that Kinzo has an evil twin brother in episode 2.

>>5694043
>The window is only confirmed locked later.
This is the case for nearly all closed rooms, since the red that defines them comes after the actual event is discovered. It would be cheap to just say this allows you to bypass all reds with time.

>>5694119
Only if there's one murderer.

>>5694161
You still need to acknowledge the murderers? If you ignore "Shkannon vs Shkannontrice vs Jessitrice" stuff is important, not "shit that goes nowhere" as OP implies, because people need to finally accept that certain things were pretty much confirmed in episode 6 and stop whining about it, THEN move on to solve the mystery with the certain things they have accepted. This thread is "shit that goes nowhere" because it's only working through each murder and presenting a possibility, an unlikely possibility at that, that ignores certain things. That kind of thing has been done since the dawn of time.

>>5694224
For all of you people bitching about people still theorizing in the post Episode 6 world, saying things like "Trying to deny Shkannontrice is a waste of time, it's so obvious":

Why are you all so afraid to put your money where your mouth is? Show us how Shkannontrice solves all the crimes in a way that isn't MORE absurd than whatever theories are being posted here.

Or can't you?

>>5694224

Even if Shkanontrice is true, Beatrice isn't the culprit.

You have solved nothing. Kindly go fuck yourself, you fucking assmunching twatfaced whore.

>>5694322
Loaded question. It's not our fault if R07's solution is absurd. I mean sure, it doesn't seem very strange if you say Kyrie and Hideyoshi and some other money-grubbing adults did everything (the swell-sounding lie) compared to if a crazy maid with three personalities does it (the inconvenient truth)

>>5694353
That's why Battler assumes that Beatrice is the culprit and tries to figure out the meaning of her moves, reaches a conclusion, then uncovers the truth shortly after, right?

>>5694224
When I go through the games and present solutions, I plan to present two versions.

A version with Shannon and Kanon as two people and a version with Shannon and Kanon as one person.

There is one thing that is most concerning about Shannon and Kanon being the same person.

If they are... then why are there 6 bodies in the Storeroom, with everyone present, and Kanon present as well? One of those bodies is identified as Shannon. And all of the identities are confirmed in Red. And why are they perceived as different people for a few years? That's a long time to not notice something is off.

So that complicates things. Especially if we believe that Episode 1 is a factual account of what Battler perceives and believes, and from then on, it is a presentation of the witch bound by rules.

Of course, there's plenty of evidence to support that they are the same person. The entirety of Episode 6 Hammers the point in. In EP2 and EP4 one or the other is found and the others body is missing and guaranteed in red that they are dead.

In EP3 both have identical causes of death.

However, when you solve a mystery, you cannot actually solve it until the answer is revealed. What you can do is write up theories that work and then list them. Basically the game is "find the right possibility" however, nothing so far presents only one unique possibility.

I think you can solve these with Shannon and Kanon as one person, or with them as two. I am actually not sure which is more likely, there's good evidence for both.

I don't think we need to see Beatrice as the culprit. I think its better to see her as Bern sees her:

A pawn that can become a knight or a queen.

Beatrice only really "wins" two of the games. Ep4 and Ep2. Other people are clearly plotting murder.

At this point, Beatrice can be either Shannon or Jessica. I am not quite sure which. Shannon is the obvious one in terms of needing the alternate personality. But Jessica's death circumstances in EP4 make me think its her.

>>5694353

There is a pretty fine line between saying that Beatrice isn't the Mastermind and saying that solves nothing.

I mean, Beatrice, if nothing else, created most of the closed rooms, and did so for a reason, and most likely went along with someone elses designs for personal reasons.

>>5694366
My problem isn't even so much the "Crazy maid with three personalities" factor, it's the fact that at some point or another EVERY GODDAMN PERSON ON THE ISLAND has to have known about this. With the exception of Battler at least.

And yet noone says a thing. Bodies are piling up, suspicion flying all over the place, and the adults all conspire to LIE TO THE COUSINS about finding 6 dead bodies in Episode 3. Not to mention the lying in Episode 1 (Hideyoshi, Nanjo, Jessica), 2 (Genji, Gohda, Kumasawa, and probably Rosa as well), and 5 (Why does Erika throw suspicion on Natsuhi when it should pretty damn obvious that something is strange about the 2 servants who are never at the same place at the same time).

Actually, I take that back, because non-detective Battler lied about Shannon and Kanon being dragged into the late night discussion.

What the fuck is wrong with you people. This theory is insane. It requires everyone on the island to be insane. And you have to be insane to just timidly accept it without further thought.

>>5694375

He's trying to look at Beatrice's viewpoint from her position as Game Master, not the culprit. None of her moves make sense if she's the culprit.

Trust me, the red about her not killing for revenge prevents her from being the mastermind, even if she kills people. Someone is manipulating her.

Besides, you don't have a motive for the Crazy DID Meido other than "she crazy". You have solved NOTHING. No one here has.

doesn't there have to be a consistency that everyone dies by the same person(s) in all the eps? or at least 1-4?

i would find it hard to believe in every episode someone fucks up or someone kills another for x reason you might aswell say some of the things happened by accident during the games

>>5694382
You are making huge jumps in your reasoning that just aren't logical.

>If they are... then why are there 6 bodies in the Storeroom, with everyone present, and Kanon present as well?
Why couldn't George see who the sixth body was? Answer: the body was around the corner and Kanon and Hideyoshi were obscuring the view of it.
Although Battler acknowledges that there are at least 6 bodies, he describes all bodies except Shannon's. He has no clue Shannon is there until Hideyoshi says so.
>One of those bodies is identified as Shannon.
By Hideyoshi only.
>And all of the identities are confirmed in Red.
No they aren't. This is what's said:
>Regarding the unidentified corpses, all of their identities are guaranteed. Therefore, no body double tricks exist!
I assume you're just reasoning off the red instead of gathering the context of the red to jump to these conclusions. Battler says that the people with their faces entirely torn off couldn't be identified, therefore they might have been body doubles (the corpses of other people) dressed up in their clothes. To which Beatrice answers that the identities of all unidentified (faces entirely ripped off so can't be discerned who they are by face) corpses (dead bodies) are confirmed. This means that IF they are dead, the people whose faces were entirely ripped off have their identities confirmed. Shannon did not have her face entirely ripped off. It was supposedly half ripped off, and this is only according to the narrator who claims to see inside Hideyoshi's thoughts. Hideyoshi doesn't actually say anything like that.
>And why are they perceived as different people for a few years?
It's only a long time for people who live on the island - the same people who hide Kinzo's death. It's possible that Kinzo's death may even be an indicator of this type of organized lie, because Kinzo's death itself really has little impact on the mystery.

>>5694420

You lack imagination if you can't whittle down the number of people who know about Shkannon down to maybe 3.

An extra body, probably Erika's, explains a number of these things. George's love with Shannon happened over the course of brief meetings, and he never really knew Kanon anyways. Natsuhi and Krauss were self involved, and a number of situations could have lead to Kanon being hired despite it.

Kumasawa, Genji, and Jessica. Who else would have "needed" to know?

God damn it, I hate that I have to defend this theory.

>>5694420
>And you have to be insane to just timidly accept it without further thought.

One thing that's constantly been hammered into us from the very beginning is to never stop thinking.

Why did /jp/ stop thinking? Why did you fall for Battler's game?

>>5694415
>Beatrice created most of the closed rooms

Beatrice the game master created the closed rooms, yes. Beatrice the person on the gameboard is most likely not trying to create a closed room at all, with the exception of obvious puzzles like in Ep3.

Most of the closed rooms are probably closed rooms by accident.

>>5694430
Oh please. Beatrice as the gamemaster doesn't want to show Battler on the gameboard anything, only meta Battler. Don't be stupid. Battler treated the culprit as "Beatrice" and tried to figure out her motives.

For one thing, meta-Beatrice doesn't own the gold. A real person on the gameboard owns it.

>>5694459

Every single person who has been shown to have witness Shannon and Kanon at the same time (which is, as of Ep6, everybody) necessarily has to be in on their secret.

Nice try, though.

>>5694420
>What the fuck is wrong with you people. This theory is insane. It requires everyone on the island to be insane. And you have to be insane to just timidly accept it without further thought.
You're an idiot.

>>5694430

But we can say that Shannon (and Kanon, ignoring Shkannon) are related to the murders. That's really beyond doubt.

We can use that as a basis to figure out why.

>>5694478

I mean "witnessed", goddamn.

>>5694467
>Battler treated the culprit as "Beatrice" and tried to figure out her motives.

When was this? I only remember him thinking about the mystery using the Knox Rules.

>>5694449
Pretty good critique.

However, when Battler arrives and Kanon is introduced, a few people do seem to remember him from previous gatherings.

Still, I am with you and I think of the two possibilities, I'd say

70% Shannon and Kanon are the Same Person
30% They are not but it illustrates something else important in the mystery.

>>5694420
I second that. Shkanon may be able to get you out of tight messes, and it may be true, but I have never heard a good underlying reason for it and very few venture into its mechanics.

My basic premise remains the same even so many episodes after Shkanon took off: even if it is true, the rest of the family has to grab the idiot ball tightly for it to keep working.

>>5694478

Since when do we believe scenes that lack Detective vision.

Using that as proof against Shkannon is like saying that Kumasawa summoned towers in the middle of the rose garden in episode 3.

>>5694420
All scenes with Kanon are fantasy. All lines directed at Kanon are fantasy. They're really just talking to Shannon or the dialog never occurred at all. Shannon doesn't go around dressing as Kanon. Kanon doesn't exist anywhere except in her mind.

People assume that Battler is the detective of EP1-4 when there's no evidence to suggest this. It's all baseless assumption.

>>5694496
>I have never heard a good underlying reason for it

That's because there isn't one. The only possible reason is to get around certain red texts, I can't imagine for a second Ryukishi being THAT bad of a writer after all the shit he wrote about TRUST in Ep5.

>>5694478
"Nice try."

Only people who say they saw Shannon and Kanon together to Battler, and people who couldn't possibly not know (Genji, Natsuhi, Krauss, Jessica, Kumasawa) need to be in on it. And for the people who say they saw them together, they only need to be in on it in that specific episode. The reason Shkannontrice is always so rabidly denied despite how obvious it is in episode 6 is because people like you simplify it down to absolute impossibilities by making all these brazen statements like "all 15 other people have to be retards/in on it/blind" that have been countered again and again as much as you can. You're probably aware they've been countered, but you STILL say them, as if it's not about finding the truth, but convincing people of your lies because you happen to strongly dislike the obvious truth.

>>5694512
> Until now, you have been the DETECTIVE! Was it ever shown that you were not the detective this time, and that you were an observer with a subjective VIEWPOINT?!! Unless it was, you do not have the right to falsify your point of VIEW!!

>>5694512
I agree with you on the detective thing.

I also think the whole Detective Seeing Everything is a bit of a stupid line and probably does not have much bearing on Umineko.

And yes, the only possible way to have Shannon is Kanon be true would be to have a lot of scenes where dialog is directed at Shannon who is shown as someone else.

However, if Shannon is not Kanon, it really is the Last Big Reveal that Ryuukushi can do.

I am okay with the story either way. For me a lot of the value on this will hinge on Battler's Sin and the Identity of the Second Battler (Jessica. Please.)

>>5694519

I think there is a reason, and the reason is that it implies certain things.

Beato(shannon) is likely an accomplice who is crying out for help, reaching out to Battler who promised to rescue her.

The culprit knows about Shannon being Kanon and takes advantage of that for some other goal-revenge or money.

Seeking out the origin to Shkannon can provide us with a culprit and a basis for what the Metaworld really is if we think about it long enough

>>5694502
But they all tell the detective they saw then together in a way or another. Either Shannon and Kanon really are different people, or they are all lying.

>>5694502
>Since when do we believe scenes that lack Detective vision.

Since the theory that fake scenes can only exist if either the people involved in them die soon afterward or agree to lie about what they saw.

>>5694512
>No evidence

Dlanor's red is good enough evidence for me. Besides, can of worms. The minute you start saying "X doesn't exist because Battler wasn't the detective", I can start saying complete bullshit like "everyone on Rokkenjima is actually a bear because Battler wasn't the detective".

Don't go there. Please.

>>5694495
I find it of little significance that the people who come to the island once a year haven't noticed. Shannon and Kanon don't have to be on shift on the special day every year, nor do they have to be seen much even if they are on shift. Nor would they be paid much attention by the family during this very important time. The family at large may even assume that Shannon and Kanon are biologically related without much question, which Kanon's way of speech would imply.

>>5694512
That's curious. It might be possible to write Kanon out of the first episode but I'm not certain if you can substitute "things other people said they were doing" or "things that coincidentally happened" in every instance Kanon was said to do something in the other games.

For example, Kanon did not get wounded in the first episode: Kumasawa merely found Kinzo's corpse and everyone went downstairs for that reason. If you can fabricate a theory based on coincidences like these, you may have something there.

>>5694528

That is correct, though I would not say with certainty that Krauss and Natsuhi know. They never exactly payed close attention to the servants.

How ever, it is highly likely that at least a few episodes involve people learning about Shkannon and going along with the killings while they're innocent in another game.

Rosa in episode 2, is the most likely example.

>>5694543

But why do you need Shkanon to figure this out? Isn't Shannontrice enough?

>>5694528
>You're probably aware they've been countered, but you STILL say them, as if it's not about finding the truth, but convincing people of your lies because you happen to strongly dislike the obvious truth.

I could say pretty much the same thing about you, buddy.

looking through some screens right now, didn't kanon "lick" beatrice's shoes in ep 2?

>>5694547

When? Seariously, point out instances when somebody says "I just say Shannon and Kanon going for a stroll on the beach, how pleasant."

Very few people say things like that, and I bet explanations can work for all of them.

>>5694543
I think that if anyone is blackmailing Shannon, it is definitely George.

This, in my opinion, is heavily implied in EP6.

The entire forced marriage of Battler and commentaries of marriage being the ultimate prison-- combined with George admitting a psychotic jealousy over Battler-- I think it points to a situation where Shannon is being coerced into all of this.

However, due to causes of death and locations of the bodies, I sort of think Jessica matches it better.

>>5694614
Not to mention the similarities between Erika/George's ring.

>>5694577
>It is highly likely that people go along with murder

WHY? What possible reason could anyone have?

>>5694496
Their objective? To make it seems as if the WITCH exists.
You have to realize, they have no control over the pieces on the gameboard. You can't make them do things that is out of their nature. Those guys are playing dead and playing trick all the time. A lots of the closed room can be created with an illusion of crime especially ep3.

Battler being the detective doesn't matter. The detective may be mistaken, but he can't lie. There's no need for him to have lied. Battler did not see Shannon and Kanon together in episodes 1-4. When he finally does see them together, he's no longer the detective. Erika, who is depicted in the same room as Shannon and Kanon, is often used as a counterpoint here. But she doesn't have a first person perspective in episode 5 at all - assuming that every scene that happens in her vicinity is true is assuming Dlanor and such actually exist, assuming that Kinzo is alive (since Battler 'saw' him) and so on. What Erika says on the board never indicates she sees two separate people. The story says at one point that she turns to Shannon and Kanon and tells them to close the door. These aren't her own words, just what the narrator says - the narrator in the same scene is shown to be meta Battler, and meta Battler is seeing a replay of the game through Lambda's display of it. She could have easily only turned to one person and told them to close the door, or she might not have said anything at all.

>>5694547
No they don't. Proof?

>>5694596
Shkanontrice- Kanon takes of his own shoe and licks it.
Jessicatrice - No problems.

I just want meta Beato vs Beatrice and Battler vs Jessica (the other Battler)on a fist fight.

And then one last Beatrice vs Battler, where Beatrice has all the meta characters fighting by her side and Battler denies them all one by one. He then cries and tells them hes put them all to rest. He then denies himself while pointing at himself.

>>5694643

Ep3 is probably the best example. All the adults but Rosa saw both Kanon and Shannon's bodies.

Why would they lie?

>>5694614
>>5694614

That's actually really interesting, but Ryukushi has gone on record as saying we should take GeorgexShannon at face value. Still, he is kind of a troll, so it's worth considering.

But yeah. Jessica is the only person besides Shkannon's "parents" who has heavy interaction with both. Anyone who knows about Shkannon would have to know who the culprit is as soon as the fake body shows up.

Personally, I feel certain that Jessica is at least an accomplice, but probably the real villain of the story. I mean, she has enough reason to hate her family, and she fits the role of the Second Battler very well. (and is, of course, 19 years old and blond.)

>>5694647

you know your fucking nuts when you lick your own shoe to become another persona

Perhaps we should look into the fanmade rules.

Ones like it doesn't matter what occurs after midnight, the game is already over; Battler seeing fantasy elements is irrelevant. Maybe that's telling us that Battler isn't the detective and his narrative isn't objective.

>>5694660
>but Ryukushi has gone on record as saying

Yeah, he said Erika was a good person, too. Probably specifically to set up that troll in Ep6.

>>5694625

Ultieror motives. Rosa, for instance, had a clear motive in that she needed lots of money, and always sort of hated her family.

>>5694653
They didn't necessarily lie. They found six corpses in a row. Here's the important part - the very first corpse was Shannon and the very last corpse was Kanon. The culprit even manipulated them into moving in this order by the way they placed the keys. It's possible that for the last corpse, few people actually paid it close attention - maybe Nanjo just announced it was Kanon, and that was that.

>>5694674

He could also have meant that she was a tragic figure, which I could agree with.

>>5694671

The only times Piece-Battler ever sees magical things in the question arcs is a) when the clock has begun to strike midnight, in Ep1, and b) when his player has given up and thus he is no longer the detective, in Ep2.

>>5694660
>For example, I haven't hidden settings such as 'George and Shannon aren't lovers, and they are cold-blooded people who try to get the wealth of Umishiromiya family'. You can get the answer from the world-view you have ever seen.........maybe. Hihihi."

What if Kanon only exists because his piece was placed on the chessboard in the first place? There was no real "Kanon" but the other game players either just go along with the existence of Kanon's piece or just aren't calling Battler out on it.

>>5694708
That doesn't exactly work in reality.

>>5694683

Shannon had no way of knowing the adults would break into the parlor first. Both the boiler room and the chapel are just as accessible when locked.

>>5694676

That's ludicrous. Why would Rosa kill EVERYONE over money? Sure, I can see her killing her siblings in a fit of rage, but she'd never agree to be part of a plan to do so.

Despite her horrible temper, zero motherly instincts, and witchlike sense of humor, she's not THAT bad of a person.

>>5694718

True.

But then, episode 1 was a gameboard itself (Probably played between Beato and Lambda.) and episode 6 basically proved that the game board doesn't need to make logical sense as long as it's...er...internally consistent.

>>5694734

We don't even get to see much of Ep6's gameboard, and certainly not enough to make statements like that.

Who says what happened doesn't make logical sense?

>>5694674
I never saw Erika as a terrible person.

I see her as someone tragic. She is a person who wants the truth and only the truth. She exists to destroy lies-- that's not ignoble.

Natsuhi is lying a lot. And it's really fucking suspicious. I don't buy her being innocent. She's an accessory, at the very least. Even so, if someone lied to me about my father being dead for a year I would be furious. Especially if they were doing it to hide embezzlement.

Lying about someones death for a year is a big deal.

Erika is also an attentionwhore. She gets jealous. She wants to be seen as smart. And she is smart. She goes through huge lengths to find the truth-- and the truth really did point to Natsuhi.

Ultimately, her pursuit of the truth forces her to confront something horrible.

The truth is, she is not a real live person.

>>5694725
The same accomplice who told them about the last corpse may have been the person who ensured they discovered her first. And I'm not saying that you can go through the VN, decide who had the most role in it, and finger them as the accomplice, either. Since it happens away from the detective, the truth of some details may be different.

To me, the fact that the first twilight where they both are supposed to be dead is only told to Battler second-hand adds to the possibility. There's always something that's preventing him from getting a full investigation, whether it be Shannon around the corner in episode 1, Kanon's disappearance in episodes 2 and 4, or this twilight.

>>5694753
Because people played dead during a prank while Erika slaughtered them?

>>5694763
>The truth is, she is not a real live person.

She is already dead.

>>5694766

Yeah, that could also be what they call a "red herring".

>>5694771

Who says that isn't what ALWAYS happens during the first twilight?

Replace "Erika" with "the cuprit", in this case.

>>5694753
>>5694771
It wasnt necessarily like that, the culprit killing them while they're pulling a prank. If I recall correctly all that is said in red regarding their life or dead status is "They were alive untill they were killed." Well...yea.

>>5694791

I guess. There are more issues I have with it, including the fact that the reality of the game board can be anything physically possible, but I can't disprove that it makes logical sense.

That said, none of this really matters, because the point that Kanon might only exist on the game board is a valid one.

>>5694779
There's so much evidence for it at this point that the only argument is that it's some huge red herring, ie, troll.

Episode 5 runs contrary to this. There was supposed be a very venomous trick in episode 5, according to Ryuukishi. Episode 5 was also the episode where the Shkanon theory was 'denied', because of Battler and Erika being together with them. It doesn't make sense for the red herring to be denied like that. If the venomous trick was the scene with Shannon, Kanon, Erika, Battler and everyone on the island together, then it makes sense.

>>5694835
The Kanon and Shannon scene was Battler's POV. The episode itself addressed that Battler's narrative wasn't reliable because he later saw Kinzo.

That was the nasty trick.

>>5694859
Actually, it wasn't Battler's view this time. Or at least, not Piece-Battler's. It was Meta-Battler's in that particular scene. While the narrator describes the scene, he calls Piece-Battler "me". Piece-Battler himself wouldn't do that.

>>5694884
>he calls Piece-Battler "me".
"me" with quotation marks included, that is.

>>5694835
>There's so much evidence for it at this point that the only argument is that it's some huge red herring, ie, troll.

Yes, but it makes. No. Sense.

No one I have ever talked to has come up with a logical and sound reason for Shkanon that couldn't be better explained with any other theory.

Until that happens, it remains an unfair and cheap trick, an affront to detective fiction as a genre.

I hope Dine bursts through a wall in Ep7 and denies Shkanon outright.

>>5694908
>I hope Dine bursts through a wall in Ep7 and denies Shkanon outright.

Dine is the Kool-Aid guy?

>>5694908
I disagree. Episode 6 pretty much confirmed the theory. Or rather, it presented it as a truth, since it wasn't even a theory at that time. Shkanontrice wasn't heard of before episode 6.

I've yet to see a person who can properly tie together the duel in episode 6, Battler's sin and Beatrice's creation without Shkanontrice.

>>5694835
Or the venomous trick was Erika in general. She was a murderer in episode 6, which she CANNOT do unless she was one of the other already established pieces playing detective. Which led me to think that maybe the room that Natsuhi was set up in episode 5 to look like a murderer was done by Erika who wasn't trying to find the truth, but rather to ruin Natsuhi. Remember now that everything we have seen in BOTH episode 5 and 6 are both subject to the same show of falsehoods. Nothing has changed to be more trustworthy from episode 5 to episode 6, quite the contrary as it only gets less trustworthy.

Dunno if this was posted, but whatever. Fragment from an interview with R07:

>(About Battler's escape)
>This part will probably serve as a massive hint regarding the truth about Beatrice.

>If you really understand how he was able to escape, it should be possible for you to solve all of the riddles from EP1 to EP4.
>Especially after this last game, where we placed several hints that verged on answers, you should be able to explain the riddles of all the closed rooms up until now.

Shkannon is pretty much confirmed.

>>5694940
>Or rather, it presented it as a truth

Isn't this suspicious?

Remember that demon stakes and legions of cannibalistic goats were presented as truth when Beatrice was running the game.

Why should Battler's game be any different in this respect?

>>5694937
>Dine is the Kool-Aid guy?

God I hope so.

"SHKANONTRICE!? OHHHH NO!"

>>5694908

Just like I can't say episode 6 makes no sense without knowing all the details, you can't say Shkannontrice makes no sense because you have to assume a number of things about it. Just like saying that it makes no sense because everyone has claimed to see them (which isn't true) we don't know all the details.

In a way, a part of it is trusting Ryukushi to have it all make sense in the end.

>>5694937
OH YEAH!

>>5694950
My theory is that Erika is simply a proxy for Jessica, and that Jessica is also Battler. And Beatrice.

Why I find Jessica playing make believe with 4 names better than a maid playing make believe with 3, I have no idea.

>>5694963

I've seen this before, but I don't see how Shkanontrice can "solve all the closed rooms".

Ryukishi has to be an idiot if he thinks it can.

...You know, Dine, who hated love stories in mysteries would actually make a really good piece for Bern, looking back on it.

I want to say Maria died when she was 6 and Rosa is deluded into thinking she's still alive, but it says right in the fifth game in red text that "At 24:00 in the guesthouse, George, Jessica, and Maria were alive and in the second floor cousins' room. Nanjo, Gohda, and Kumasawa were on the first floor."

>>5695003

It solves the first 3 episodes, at least.

>>5694984
I'm pretty excited to see where he takes it.

I expect 7 to be the best. With 8 (if released) being the happy ending that provides closure.

But I trust r07 for a few reasons. I don't think I've been this into a mystery ever and I really like the way it is laced with fantasy.

Although I really do think the Siesta Sisters are sort of regrettable. They are endearing in part, but add too much Rabbit Girl to the whole thing. It's hard to capture a horrifying murder where little rabbits are going NYEH!!!!

>>5694977
That's different. You had to be pretty thick if you didn't see all this "magic" stuff was ruled out from the get-go. I think there's even a line in episode 5 that highlights this. Something like "So by merely presenting this game in the first place, Beato was admitting she wasn't a witch"? Anyone who thought that the magic was real was really missing the point, in a huge way. Anti-mystery vs Anti-fantasy was just Beatrice's indirect way of having Battler search for the truth, since she by nature can't say much directly. She's in the habit using very roundabout methods to do things, which is shown by her complex motive.

>>5694994

Because Jessica is a good character while Shannon is a terrible one. That's really all it boils down to.

>>5695006

Blue guy is totally Dine.

>>5694963
I stubbornly choose to interpret this as Shkannon + Mysterious Person X/Beatrice to solve the closed rooms until proven otherwise, possibly at gunpoint.

>>5694994

so jessica is actually smart and read detective novels? and also had a boyfriend?

i cant think of her as anything else but a real person who showed up at the island as a corpse

>>5695027
Here's one for Jessica being Beatrice.

>>5695006
He's on his way.

>>5695003
I think you're taking it the wrong way. It's not that it solves all closed rooms, but it's impossible to solve all closed rooms properly without accounting for it. In other words, there are a few rooms, not all rooms, that involved Shkanontrice, though not necessarily as an answer to the red. People always point out that they can solve all closed room without Shkanontrice, but they're missing the point. They didn't solve them as much as they gave their own explanation for each one. They might be spot on with some of the simpler tricks, but a couple of rooms they haven't solved since their answers are incorrect and could be denied in red.

>>5695048

You know, the Umineko Fanart community is pretty ridiculous.

And if the blond guy/girl in the portrait was Lambda's piece? I mean, s/he's blond/e, just like her.

That's pretty stupid, but it would be cool.

>>5695013

Maria could be the name of Rosa's stuffed lion doll.

>>5695034

Pony forever.

I still think that Jessica existed on the board of EP6, and Battler/Beatrice's final red truth overwrote the truth of the past with a "mix of truth and lies" like what happened to Natsuhi in EP5.

I won't accept a theory that denies the existance of my waifu.

>>5695046

>>5694977
>>5694986
So that's why he has a random streak of red in his hair. Fruitilicious.

>>5695067
>Maria could be the name of Rosa's stuffed lion doll.

I was thinking that the name of "Maria" could have been passed onto any inanimate object that Rosa carries around which reminds her of her daughter, but...that just sounds like such a BS wordplay trick.

Probably not as bad as anything needed to make Shkannon comply with the red truth, though.

>>5695066
Well, the blonde girl is obviously some form of Beatrice, and Lambda is the one who allowed Beatrice to become a witch, so why not?

One thing worth keeping in mind, though.

All of the portraits, without exception, have been of Witches.

I still think that Erika existed on the board of EP6, and Battler/Beatrice's final red truth overwrote the truth of the past with a "mix of truth and lies" like what happened to Natsuhi in EP5.

I won't accept a theory that denies the existance of my waifu.

>>5695102

meaning that if that portrait is of Dine, he would have to be a witch. Or the Lady/Trap would.

>>5695014
How does it solve the 1st Twilight in EP3.

The adults found Shannon and Kanon in different rooms. And, please correct me if I'm wrong, their deaths were confirmed in red before the adults started looking for them.

>>5695057
>and could be denied in red.

But they haven't been, which is my point.

Until there is a mystery to which Shkanon is the only logical and possible solution (and there never has been) I will continue to deny it.

Why? Because I hate it. I hate Kanon and Shannon. They are unrealistic, and unsympathetic. They are boring and overdeveloped. They eat up screen time that could be devoted to characters that are actually interesting.

Shkanontrice is slowly devouring everything I like about Umineko, including the online fandom.

God do I hate it so very very much.

>>5695107
He's a Witch Hunter. Close enough.

>>5695102
All portraits have only contained one person so far. Episode 7 is also supposed to be the end of the tale of love that's been going on until now. Things will be different. It's hard to imagine that the guy is anyone but Van Dine. As for the blonde who everyone seems to think is a guy, she/he could still be a "witch". The Golden Witch, Beatrice who is the family's alchemy counselor.

>>5695105
>overwrote the truth of the past with a "mix of truth and lies"

Another idea that's bullshit. Truth, by definition, isn't subjective.

>>5695114
Maybe they're body was split into two.

>>5695122

>>5695114
A few theories.

1. A body double was used, and either Shannon or Kanon was faked.

2. Shannon was the first found and Kanon was the last found. Shannon could have, after being seen, ran to the Church to become Kanon.

3. As for the red names being Dead, Personality Death bullshit could explain it, as could a "former Kanon that died" theory explain it.

>>5695122
Accept Shkanon so you can promptly shove it in the corner and ignore it, and re-embrace the way of the pony.

Is it just me, or does it seem like the only character that fits the type of personality that original for Beatrice had is Kanon? Seriously, I doubt the girl would be slutting it up the instant she created Beatrice like Shannon would have, and Jessica can't be it by default. From all the fantasy and flashbacks the only thing we know about Kanon is that Kanon is afraid of getting into a relationship but still yearns for it. Also Kanon is the only one who talks to Battler's piece in a way that holds back, where as Shannon talked about the past with Battler and we know for sure that Beatrice wants Battler to remember on his own so in all likely hood would do this. Personally I think Shannon is the red herring, to make people not see the clues for Kanon being Beatrice.

p.s. Erika doesn't exist, and Shkanon is false.

ShKanon fans make me laugh. If it it actually revealed that ShKanon is true, I'm sure some asshole on here will spoil it and I just won't read the end. No reason to ruin a good story with such a horrible plot device. I'm not sure when Umineko became a soap opera, but I'm pretty sure you fuckers are ignoring Dine's 11th rule in the first place.

Also, I'm gonna chuckle when someone says "Ryu07 is making fun of Dine!"

Why?

Bears did it.

>>5695122

Explain the trick in Episode 6 without Shkannon.

Really, please do it. I really want to know if there's one I've overlooked.

>>5695142
It is in the Umineko world. Direct quote from EP 6: "There are multiple truths." Remember Erika's final monologue?

>>5695161
We actually do have a few pictures of what the real Beatrice's personality was like asides from what was presented in EP6. The Lolitrice flashback in EP3, and Lambda's TIP. She comes across as very smart and self-aware, but sort of standoffish, defiant, and condescending, too.

>>5695173
First, explain to me what the solution of Ep 6's final puzzle is with Shkannon.

>>5695159
>3. As for the red names being Dead, Personality Death bullshit could explain it, as could a "former Kanon that died" theory explain it.

But both, Shannon and Kanon were declared as dead with the Red. Unless a 3rd personality, say... Bob is there, then I don't see how this would work.

>>5695122
It's pretty hard to deny all possibilities the fans will think of.
>Until there is a mystery to which Shkanon is the only logical and possible solution (and there never has been) I will continue to deny it.
If it's the only logical and possible solution, then it's not a theory, it's the truth.

It's pretty hard to deny all possibilities the fans will come up with. I think the episode 6 tries to do this. And I say we've already reached this point.


The only logical and possible solution to the episode 6 closed room is Shkanon.

I don't say that because of the red alone, I say it because Furfur and Zepar's duel, a duel where Shannon took in the souls of Kanon and Beatrice in order to become a full human so she could finally love, was supposed to serve as a hint for Beatrice for the closed room.

Explanations like Kanon being Kinzo or the Zero in the roulette just don't make sense with this duel, while Shkanontrice makes perfect sense with it. It is incredibly easy to see how this duel would serve as a hint for it, and it's also easy to see how it it's a part of Beato's heart, as it's said in game, and as Ryuukishi says in interviews.

>>5695174

>But both, Shannon and Kanon were declared as dead with the Red. Unless a 3rd personality, say... Beatrice is there, then I don't see how this would work.

Fixed.

Not my theory, bro. I just report it.

>>5695164
Well, if Knox's 5th was followed, all the characters of the game would be denied for being Chinamen.

>>5695160

You're right, Pony. I have seen the light.

>>5695173

Kanon killing himself is the easiest way.

>>5695174

Truth, by definition, is not subjective. No amount of bullshit philosophy can change the definition of a word.

This is why red truth exists in the first place.

>>5695142

It is impossible for humans to grasp the "true" nature of things, only interpret what we see of them. For us that is "truth", but it's not necessarily the absolute truth, if such a thing as "absolute truth" even EXISTS, given the nature of quantum mechanics.

Also, R07 goes on and on about the ability of a writer to overwrite the truth of the past with a new truth. His favorite example is how Watanagashi-hen's "truth" was "overwritten" by the "truth" of Meakashi-hen in Higurashi. I think he's obliquely referred to it in Umineko at least once.

>>5695202
How in the hell? Chinaman means an exotic character from another land. I assure you all of the characters are from Japan, and that none of them are all that exotic.

>>5695191
>If it's the only logical and possible solution, then it's not a theory, it's the truth.

That should be rephrased as "...the only logical and possible solution, *you can think of at the moment*."

>>5695199
Something went awry in Ep3 to begin with. Kyrie was likely the culprit behind that one. In Ep2, Battler was taken up to meet Beatrice after he confirmed Shannon's body was dead. Even if you dismiss the scene where he actually talks to her as fantasy, Genji took him up to meet her.

>>5695219
What the fuck did I just saw.

>>5695183

Sure thing.

Red text never places Kanon in the Cousin's Room, nor does it seal the Next Room Over's window.

In other words, Shannon is in the Next Room Over, which isn't a closed room, and with Love (snicker), Kanon's there with her.

Shkannon flees out the window, and preforms the bait and switch rescue with Battler, but then the Kanon "personality" dies.

This is, as far as I know, the official Shkannon solution.

>>5695173
Somebody went through the drain by cutting themselves up bit by bit. Why not?

>>5695218

Kanon killing himself works, sure. But you need to get him out of the Cousin's Room first.

>>5695229
Seeing it actually written out like that...I can come up with tons better explanations.

>>5695173
Note that the solution also has to be connected to Beatrice's "heart", which is why Battler was afraid to reveal it.

>>5695202
"Chinaman" wasn't used as a racist remark, but as a general foreign character archetype. Like Fu Manchu or something similar.

If some Russian working for the KGB suddenly showed up and it turns out he was the culprit all along, that would be an example of a Chinaman for a Japanese audience.

>>5695249

I never said I liked it, just that that was what is was. Give me some of those explanations, and I'll compare to the Red Truth.

>>5695219
Well, if I see, say, 2 guys in front of me, and one of them kills the other one, I think I can say, with absolute certainty that's the truth.

Naturally, whether other people believe me or not is a whole different deal, but whatever they believe doesn't change reality in the slightest.

>>5695249
I really don't think you can. Don't make an explanation that makes sense with the red. Make one that makes sense with the white. See:
>>5695191

>The solution to EP6's final trick reveals a large part of Beato's heart

Genre switch theory:

1. Umineko isn't a mystery...it's a romance. Beatrice/Battler say this in the Golden Truth. Knox's Decalogue no longer apply.
2. The puzzle is solved with a hidden door, crazy contraption, etc, take your pick.

>>5695257


Now THAT would make me rage.

>>5695246
He was never in the room to begin with. Because he doesn't count as a person, or something.

Or he broke out the window without breaking the seal.

>>5695219

I guess this is fair, but it's still bullshit philosophy. In writing, we just call this a "retcon".

>>5695229
>but then the Kanon "personality" dies.

...How?

>>5695191

And I think you're all fools for just believing what the game wants you to believe.

Ep6's ending is Ep3's ending, but without the last minute troll at the end.

They're saving that for next episode.

>>5695263
Explain how hundreds of cases of 'reliable' eye-witness testimony has been denied modernly with DNA testing. Hint: it wasn't that the witnesses were lying.

>>5695229
Didn't Featherine say the windows had not been used?

>>5695264
White text is bullshit and lies. You can only trust the red.

>>5695276
Like I said, the only real explanation that anyone can come up with is that it's all a troll. Essentially, discarding the duel, the stuff about it being part of Beatrice's heart, and all that, because they can't explain it with any other theory.

>>5695274
did you mean to point to:
>>5695267
??

>>5695275

>acknowledge that everyone else is in the cousins' room.

>It needs no second telling, but know that entry or exit without breaking the seal is impossible!!

>IMPOSSIBLE. The seals on the windows [in the cousin's room] were also INTACT.

>>5695276
Which reminds me, how do Shkanontricefags explain the ending of Episode 3? Or Episode 3 in general?

Don't think I've ever seen anyone explain that episode properly.

>>5695267
Shkannon provides a parallel to Beatrice's situation, and paves the way for Mysterious Person X. Featherine and Ange allude to the possibility of a solution that doesn't involve the window, since another logic error wasn't triggered when Dlanor sealed its use in making theories. This other solution would have incorporated use of Person X, Beatrice. So as it turned out, the Shkanon solution does provide insight into Beato's heart, but in an indirect enough way that Battler is able to take it lightly as an odd "trick" when it's used.

Well, something like that, if you want to dodge Shkanontrice, I guess.

>>5695282
Featherine said the room probably isn't possible to solve if the windows can't be used, and that it would lead to the defeat -of the one who was left with the burden of mentioning the windows-. The seal was a seal on the blue truth, nothing more. Since Erika wasn't the gamemaster but Battler was, Beatrice acted in his place and forced Erika to explain it herself. Erika tried to use blue for the window, but because of her own side's sealing of that blue, she couldn't. So since she was the one who sealed it, she just took of the seal.

>>5695298
I honestly have no idea, I was just pulling shit out of my ass.

>>5695299
Shannon and Kanon are dead, as personalities, but Beatrice is still around. She killed Nanjo.

There you go.

Imagine Erika is really Jessica, now imagine after having had killed a bunch of your family members opening the closet looking for your cousin to kill and instead find your lesbian lover dead. Would this explain why the piece Erika was shocked when she opened the closet?

>>5695253

If Battler doesn't want to reveal the solution, why does his entire episode imply Shkanon?

>>5695286

This is actually stated in red.

>>5695279

The victims were lying?

>>5695306

Well, at least you admit it.

Those were all Red Truths taken directly from Episode 6

>>5695279
Can you name one example?

>>5695314

I guess he wants to prove to Lambda or whoever that he knows the truth without saying "This is all the delusion of Sayo's Mind" or something.

>>5695314
>This is actually stated in red.

Show me the exact text.

>>5695308
Pretty sure Shannon's body was seen by Battler in the Parlor. What then?

>>5695314
The victims were telling the truth of their innocence and falsely convicted because of what eye-witnesses, who weren't lying, said.

>>5695333

"You can't trust anything, you can't trust any words that aren't red...!!"

From Ep4.

By the way, was Battler's promise said in red?

>>5695336
She was posing. Battler had no detective authority. So, there's no way for him to know she's dead with certainty.

Strike 2, faggot.

Why don't you just ask someone for the red text in the newest episode when it comes out? No need to read all those excess lies.

>>5695347
I mean in EP4, when Beatrice reminded him. Not at the time this promise was made.

>>5695346
Oh, sorry, I thought you were saying that "3 souls gathering into one is an important hint" or some shit was stated in red...

>>5695353
>Battler had no detective authority.

Stop using this to prove your bullshit theories. It's not true and you know it.

>>5695354

I just look on the Red Text Wiki, bro.

>>5695342
What did the eye-witnesses saw?

If I see one person shooting another person. I don't think there's any other way around it.

>>5695353
>>>/rs/All_of_them_had_wounds_resembling_gunshot_wounds_which_became_fatal!
She was dead.

>>5695370
Stop discounting everything that's in white to justify your bullshit theories.

>>5695370
Is that all you can say? No more arguments?

Then I guess that's Strike 3 for you.

YOU ARE OUT!

Next

>>5695372

Exactly. What I see with my own two eyes is objective truth. The conclusion I draw from that is subjective experience.

>>5695374

Last time this came up, someone tried to bullshit the "which became fatal" part into meaning that the gunshot wounds were fake.

Language doesn't work that way.

>>5695374
>wounds_resembling_gunshot_wounds

Dude, don't make me think for you.
Use your own head.

>>5695383
Retard

>>5695372
Someone needs to play some Phoenix Wright.

>>5695393
>wounds...which became fatal
Clearly, I need to think for you, because you lack the capacity to do it for yourself.

>>5695370
Your eyes are not perfect, nor is your brain that processes the information they provide and stores it in memory.

>>5695397
No more arguments from you indeed.

Dun dun dun, another fag bites the dust...

Anyway, this (>>5695301) sounds interesting.

>>5695404
>Your eyes are not perfect, nor is your brain that processes the information they provide and stores it in memory.
That's bullshit for a VN, don't say shit like that.

>>5695276
>They're saving that for next episode.
In less than a month you will feel great or very, very stupid.

>>5695404
So, what did I see wrong? A guy has a gun, which I see clearly. He shoots, which I see clearly. The one who was shot falls and starts bleeding. Sure, I cannot tell he died from being shot, and that he will die. Well, unless he was shot at point blank with a shot gun in the head.

>>5695393

...WHICH BECAME FATAL.

Regardless of what caused the wound, the wounds were fatal.

>>5695377

I'm not justifying any bullshit theory. I'm denying one.

Go fuck a waterfowl.

There's not enough manliness in this thread!

>>5695276
>Ep3's ending... troll at the end.
Wow people still think this?

>>5695408
You're the same kind of person who would have self-righteously convict a suspect because of what you thought you saw, what you thought you remembered, and see him released when DNA evidence analysis picks up years later. This is what has actually happened many times in the real world. Do you honestly think your memory is perfect? That your eyes are? Do you have a god complex or what?

>>5695406

Not the same guy.

>>5695412

I'm pretty sure I'll be feeling great, yeah.

>>5695426
We'll have plenty of that in Umineko 8

>>5695431
He was referring to Virgilia suddenly turning against Battler.

>>5695403
>>5695424
Weren't those the corpses the adults found?

For all we know, Shannon's could have been faked. However, the one Battler saw was the real Shannon, or another fake.

Seriously, this is too easy to get around.

>>5695441
We can fucking hope.

>>5695276
...How?

Actually, I think this is a point that should be explored more thoroughly - looking at the white text, Shakanontrice might actually help to explain why we get differences in each episode based on which (witch?) personality emerges as dominant from Sayo's inner struggle.

Episode 1: Shannon - > Kanon -> Beatrice
Episode 2: Kanon -> Shannon -> Beatrice
Episode 3: Don't know. Do any of you have theories about what happened to lead up to the first twilight of this episode?
Episode 4: Despite all the confusion in this episode (something goes terribly wrong and everyone starts killing everyone else, which is why the killings don't follow the epitaph), we know that "Beatrice" comes out on top because of the conversation between Dress Beatrice and Suit Beatrice about whether the latter has "settled her regrets" and about "sleeping" and "taking over from here." Kanon -> Shannon -> Beatrice.

More evidence supporting this: Maria dies in the 9th Twilight whenever "Beatrice" is active. When "Beatrice" is eliminated, Maria dies before hand. The results match up here pretty well, don't they?

Your thoughts, people?

>>5695426
I just want more Wright, myself.

>>5695434
That's not going to be the case for a VN or most forms of story telling media.

>>5695434
There are cases like that indeed, but that doesn't mean there aren't cases in which what is seen is the flat-out truth.

>>5695434

If I saw someone shoot another person right in front of me, that's the truth. No bones about it. Also, you're a fucking moron.

>>5695431

Yes, of course. North Wind and the Sun, remember?

Beatrice's actions during that episode were complete bullshit. She was just having fun trolling Battler, and took it way too far, which is why she felt so bad about it later.

The happy wonderful golden land ending is a troll, yes. Ep6 ends with a happy wonderful golden land, too.

I really, really hope that Wright ends this "i rabu you so much" faggotry with his manliness.

>>5695468
Seriously, man, go play some Phoenix Wright already.

>>5695468
So you think Beatrice dying and reviving has all just been her trolling? Jesus.

>>5695448
Shannon's was in the Parlor, which Battler saw firsthand. It was the only corpse that he saw.

She had a fatal wound, which caused her death instantly. She was specifically proclaimed dead in Red Text at least twice during Episode 3.

>>5695455

Actually, Maria dies in the 10th Twilight twice, the 1st Twilight twice, and the 9th and 2nd Twilights once each.

She only ever dies when the epitaph is solved, in any case.

>>5695468
So, who's trolling this time, Battler?

Anyway, am I the only one who would have liked a role reversal at the end of EP6? Since, Battler said he was the one who was waiting now, I'd have liked Beato to become the detective at the end. Or something like that.

>>5695457
Hopefully Battler isn't the pussy lovelorn faggot that we've gotten since episode 5, and goes into a permanent "Fuck you, I'm sick of your crap!" mode like we loved to see him in back during the earlier episodes.

>>5695408
http://www.brownmccarroll.com/pdfs/LeahyArticle_May03.pdf

>Can a Witness Tell the Truth and
Be Dead Wrong at the Same Time?

>Contrary to common belief, memory does
not imprint events like a videotape recorder.
(Hyman, I. E., Jr., & Loftus, E. F., False
childhood memories and eyewitness memory
errors, in M. L. Eisen (Ed.), Memory and suggestibility
in the forensic interview. (pp. 63-
84), Lawrence Erlbaum Associates, Inc.
Publishers (2002).) Instead, our memory
works like an artist sketching a passing scene
that must be completed after the image is no
longer available by filling in color, shadow,
and detail. We “sketch” our memories from
the time the event occurs through to the
time of retelling. Good storytellers are hailed
for their ability to fill in their stories with
compelling detail, claiming poetic license to
stray from an accurate account if the story
improves as a result.

>>5695488
Yes, but Battler saw that much later. Also, didn't he see George's corpse next to Shannon's?

As I said, for all what know, what the adults saw could have been a fake, easily. Same with Battler.

>>5695495
That's just a bullshit justification people use when they're caught lying. Pseudo-science.

>>5695459
You think Ryushiki 07th doesn't like:

1. Complex intellectual asides
2. Twisted logic

...in his stories?

>>5695494
I actually really like pussy lovelorn faggot Battler. But I still hope Wright beats the shit out of him. What's wrong with me?

>>5695514
That also works with the fantasy scene there was of Shannon being revived by Beatrice, then killed. What if she wasn't revived by Beatrice, but Beatrice represented the fact that the Beatrice personality was still alive in Shannon's body, but then finally died?

>>5695515

>Be presented with a journal in a peer-reviewed scholarly journal, which exists alongside a wealth of similar research

>Say that it's just pseudo-science

Hurp durp, back to Arkansas with you.

>>5695494
How was he a pussy in EP5? Hell, he was at his best in EP5. That's the only time he actually flat out owned anyone.

>>5695479

Yes, that was her trolling. Evatrice was also her trolling. The entirety of Ep3 is a troll on Beatrice's part.

>>5695493

Actually, if you ask me, I think someone else, someone who's behind EVERYTHING, is trolling Battler.

>>5695495

...Then the witnesses were wrong. They were, in effect, lying.

Anything else is playing with semantics.

>>5695543
>...Then the witnesses were wrong. They were, in effect, lying.

They weren't lying. Their memory was mistaken. They were honestly reporting what they "remembered". It's a pretty well documented issue.

>>5695536
He was a pussy because of his "witch who's killed my family and taunted me over it again and again, why did you die? I love you so much bawww" shit. What happened to the bad ass Battler who sees through the evil's witch's bullshit? Like Beatrice said she would in episode 4, she pulled the wool over his eyes once again.

>>5695543
Evatrice wasn't really a troll. Ange's perspective in EP4 bears out that Eva is at least convinced that she inherited the title of Beatrice.

Evatrice being the culprit, yeah, that was bullshit, but not especially so compared to everything else.

>>5695543
>Actually, if you ask me, I think someone else, someone who's behind EVERYTHING, is trolling Battler.

Featherine then?


>...Then the witnesses were wrong. They were, in effect, lying.

You can only lie if you were doing it in purpose.
You cannot lie if your memory fails you, to the point you think what you remember is true.

>>5695551

Then the witnesses were wrong. They were speaking falsehoods they believed to be true. They were lying unwittingly.

Truth. Is not. Subjective.

>>5695524
Battler needs to man up before he turns becomes whiny like Kinzo, only less successful, powerful, commanding, and manly. Really all of the bad and none of the good.

Autosaging. New thread >>5695579

>>5695552
Because he realised something in particular. That much was discussed by Ange and Featherine to great length. He realised something that made him see Beatrice in a whole different light.

>>5695514
Shannon's corpse was identified by Battler with a fatal wound confirmed in red, there is no reason to believe that it was a fake. You only doubt it because you refuse to think otherwise and are hellbent on following your flawed little theory until it's denied outright.

Or do you believe that Shannon somehow switched bodies with Beatrice upon her death? Oh, of course, I forgot that Shkanontrice was now a body-hopping demon, that explains everything.

>>5695569
Lying is a deliberate act when someone is attempting to deceive. These people were speaking honestly, but were just mistaken because, again, memory and therefore direct eyewitness accounts are a lot less reliable than you think they are. That's the point.

>>5695587
"Realized" or "was trolled"? People are being retarded by believing in what the big bad herself (Featherine) says.

>>5695564

Ange's Eva isn't Ep3's Eva. We have no idea what really happened on Rokkenjima, but I think it's safe to say that Eva didn't turn into Sabrina the Teenage Witch.

You'll notice that the North Wind and the Sun talk from Virgilia comes up before Evatrice even appears... which, to me, pretty much proves that she's an unknowing part of Beatrice's giant troll.

Hell, she even vanishes completely from the gameboard after that, up until Ep6...

>>5695568

Featherine or Lambda, yeah. Has to be.

>>5695600
Dude, R07 agreed Battler had reached the truth. He's been using Red Text, which can only be used by someone who knows the truth, along with Gold Text which, once again, according to R07 can only be used by someone who has solved the game.

You're just walking backwards.

>>5695616
You believe what he says? Remember when he said Erika wasn't a bad person? Yeah.

>>5695616
So Ange knows the truth, Hideyoshi's ghost knew the truth, Natsuhi knows the truth, etcetera excreta excreta.

Sure.

>>5695629
And she isn't. She's a person who hates Fantasy. EP6 made that flat out clear.

>>5695640
Ange was granted that right by Bern when she was made a witch. Bern doesn't know the full truth either, but she knows the few bits 34 showed her.

Hideyoshi and Natsuhi were allowed to use the Red the same way Battler was allowed to use in EP4.

Oh well, your loss guys.

See, at first I was surprised that I liked Ep6 even though it was basically a big ShKannon-fest.
Then I realized, I don't hate the ShKannon concept at all, I hate the ShKannon fans and their fan theories.
Ryu-chan doesn't seem to have pulled any DID or personality death/switch bullshit, and there's no reason to believe he will. Maybe some people think the Ep6 closed room solution was too unsubtle, but I thought the personality stuff was handled fairly gracefully, and above all in a *solvable* manner.

>>This thread is for actually solving the mystery and not some Shkannon vs Shkannontrice vs Jessitrice as that shit goes nowhere.

>> and not some Shkannon vs Shkannontrice vs Jessitrice

>>Shkannon vs Shkannontrice