/jp/ - Otaku Culture

Hideyoshi lied because he is actually Shanon's split personality.

Magic.

In all seriousness, however, can we even confirm that any of the smashed corpses were the real things? If not we can't possibly hope to solve this.

>>5644395
From Alliance of the Golden Witch:
Red: Regarding the unidentified corpses, all of their identities are guaranteed. Therefore, no body double tricks exist!

>>5644429
You sure this apply to all the games?

>>5644376
And she fucked Eva and is actually George's father.
And the love between Shanon and George is a fatherly love, right?

But really.
The first episodes look a lot more like actual murders rather than some special plot.

Yeah, this part was random, my bet goes for poison for the family, then the servants moved them in the same fashion this thing had happened before (it'¡s in the extra TIPs, the shelter thing had happened before, with the magic circle and all)

>>5644429

how about the faking death thing? figured shannon was doing that the whole time running around, hiding, trading spaces with kanon or something like that

i cant figure how anyone else would commit the crimes in ep 1

>>5644429
Then that makes things a lot easier.
So to make it simple, the possible murderers are:
Genji
Jessica
George
Maria
Kumasawa
Natsuhi
Hideyoshi
Eva
Nanjo
ShKanon

Let's start eliminating people. Did anyone have an alibi? I haven't read episode 1 in forever. In any event, Maria seems unlikely (she isn't nearly strong enough) and it likely took multiple people for that reason. I'm just going to throw it out there that I find Hideyoshi suspicious, and I know before that Nanjo Shanon and Kumasawa were probably the ones who gave Maria the letter, so they're very suspect as well.

>>5644356

In a serious answer, but elaborating on things which have already been covered and probably thought about:

The victims for the most part are identified by their clothing, but it is later confirmed with red that they are in fact not body doubles.

The person who committed the crimes would have to have some connection to one of the servants or be one of the servants to have access to that key. To humor the Shkanontrice folks, this REQUIRES a "body double" for someone who doesn't actually exist, but there are 17 people on the island. If Shkanontrice is true, then that means there are actually 16...but could this be referring to someone whose body was used and dressed up to be "Shannon"? In this case, the unknown victim, and "Shannon"'s corpse, would be person 17. But this also doesn't make sense in that we know Kanon (who would be "Shannon") dies as the 4th (or 5th) Twilight. I'm not one to support Shkanontrice, but there is enough evidence in favor of it that it could be done...although R07 isn't a fan of making things painfully obvious.

Now, the circle. The culprit has a connection with Maria, and this is the first sign of it. They may have also had a connection with Kinzo as well, so part of the family (or access to his books.) Maria was into all sorts of occult stuff, so this might have been something that the culprit saw if he interacted with Maria before the events of the island. He needed people to know that the image had meaning, so he chose an occult symbol. Everyone regarded it as a "creepy circle" except Maria, who actually knew what it meant. We don't know who has actually been that close to Maria to know about her hobby that well, except for possibly her mother...but there has been absolutely no evidence of Rosa being the culprit, and she is confirmed dead in the First Twilight anyway. That and the "no body double" loophole mentioned earlier couldn't apply to her.

>>5644473
Don't forget Genji, when he dies, the circles stop and there are no more letters.

another theory is george used the ladder that was shown in ep 4, and when ep 3 came around you saw he probably used that same thing to jump off the window and this should apply to episode one for jessica or george to commit the first crimes or help carry the bodies

>>5644486
Indeed, the occult symbols really raise some questions. They could have obviously just made shit up and there would have been no one questioning it. Why did they use something which Maria would identify? Perhaps the person was working with Maria and wanted her to really believe they were Beato. Actually, Maria was flipping through her notebook on the beach so Shanon could have easily grabbed a random symbol which looked demonic from it.

>>5644473

The Situation in the night of the murder was as follows: The Siblings and their spouses were holding the family conference with everyone except for Natsuhi, who had gone to rest due to a headache.

The cousins were playing cards until late at night in the guest house.

Gohda and Shannon were in the mansion on duty, except Shannon wasn't actually assigned there but went there anyways due to 'being unable to face George after being proposed to'

Kanon and Genji were in the Guest House on duty. Kumasawa and Nanjo were resting each in their individual rooms.

So that leaves Space to commit the crime for Genji, Kumaswa, Nanjo and Shkannon. I think the cousins can be ruled out on this one.

>>5644552
Eva and hideyoshi went back after midnight. That's an important point they make to confirm they are innocent.

>>5644552
>>5644568
Then this is easily solvable by a servant conspiracy, isn't it?

To bring up another topic, what in the hell was rudolf going to tell his family, and how did he know he would die?

>>5644586
Asumu is not Battler's mom.

>>5644586
Battler is Kyrie's son, and you know how Kyrie is with her pregnancy deal, she would kill rudolf, on that place, as soon as he said that.
This fits her character well.

>>5644590
I figured that might be the case. The only issue is who would kill him over that? Jessica or some shit? Also, how did Kyrie have no idea what he was talking about. It would seem like that much would be obvious.

>>5644586

HEY KYRIE
REMEMBER HOW YOU WERE UPSET AT LOSING YOUR CHILD?
WELL, ASUMU KINDA SORTA WAS THE ONE TO MISCARRY, BUT I LIKED HER MORE SO I GAVE HER YOUR CHILD.
YEAH, BATTLER, ASUMU IS NOT YOUR MOM, KYRIE IS.

>>5644590
...What if Asumu is the killer?
All the DIDs leave room for more people.

I don't really believe it myself but it I guess it could be possible.

>>5644615
No, Asumu is dead and she isn't on the island.
We don't need more people here, also she doesn't fit. And some people connected her with Tohja, but it's unlikely.

So assuming he never got a chance to tell Kyrie I guess that point was pretty much irrelevant to Episode 1. Any other events to solve?

>>5644352

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Well I guess it makes sense to pin it on Shkannon, who saw the magic symbold in Maria's notebook and who might even have been the one to teach them to her. So the crime went as follows, after Natsuhi, Eva and Hideyoshi went back to their respective rooms Shkannon brought the relatives a poisoned snack. Maybe some poisoned tea?
Now she would have to make sure that it's something all relatives would consume in a small enough timeframe for none of the effects to show yet. Well this is probably not the biggest problem here. Anyways to carry all the relatives to the shack afterwards would probably take more than one person, so this is where the servant conspiracy comes into play. But why would they smash their heads? Maybe it's part of the 'make it seem like a witch did it' thing, same with the magic circle and returning the key to the servant's room obviously. Am I forgetting anything? Oh yes the scribbles of blood on Natsuhi's door... anyone got any input on this?

>>5644629
Can we try to recreate the 2nd twilight events with something that fits what we saw in-game?

>>5644501

Genji is one of the last victims so it would make sense that things stop happening at his death. The last letter is found, and immediately after the corpses of Nanjo, Kumasawa, and Genji are found.

The two major clues about the culprit are that they need access to servants' materials and they have something to do with Maria.

Let's continue with Turn since just talking about Legend won't get us anywhere and try to draw a common thread. We have a similar "locked room" pattern, but it's made even more blatant.

EP1's garden shed, there is only one key to the shed in the servant's quarters, and the occult circle is a tipoff to Maria that it's the doing of the Witch and not just some creepy curse.

EP2's chapel...HAPPY HALLOWEEN FOR MARIA and the same circle. The connection to Maria is more apparent. However, the only key to the chapel is held by Kinzo. Keep in mind that Kinzo is thought to be alive by everyone except the first family and the servants. The person who has the key to the chapel must have known that Kinzo is already dead. This leads to the elimination of everybody but Krauss, Natsuhi, Jessica, Genji, Kumasawa, Nanjo, Shannon and Kanon. I'm not sure if Gohda was aware of Kinzo's death, but it wouldn't hur to throw him in the list as well.

We're still left with one other question: why Maria? There could have been multiple ways for the culprit to proclaim "I AM BEATRICE," but they choose the most roundabout way of doing so in having the child who has studied "Beatrice's" magic recognize everything, and even going out of her way to give her a direct message. Again, the only person who really knows about Maria's obsession and the depths is Rosa. The "HAPPY HALLOWEEN" message may have been meant for her, as well...or maybe even created by her. In this case, Rosa may be an accomplice or the culprit.

What are all the extra patches I should use if I start to read Higurashi?
And has there been any progress on a voice patch?
Is the editing patch out yet?

>>5644629
He mentioned it in Episode 6

I've never seen this brought up, but has anyone discussed the theory of Rosa being responsible for all of this? She may have some connection with Battler that we don't know about, and may even be involved with the sin. The last time they met, Maria was three and Rosa may have been grieving over the loss of a father figure in her life. This could mean that Battler's "promise" was to act like Maria's "big brother" whenever they met and to help Maria grow into...well, not a creepy little girl obsessed with the occult. When Battler disowned his family for six years, he failed to keep the "promise" of being a surrogate father figure. (This doesn't imply that Rosa had romantic interest in Battler, only that she may have looked to him as an unlikely but still valuable support in raising her daughter.)

>>5644637
Natsuhi is one of the culprit as well.
She did it to make herself not suspicious and to pin the murders on LOL WITCH.
Why she want to kill Krauss in the first place? This is pretty hard to say besides speculating.

>>5644637
Maybe smashing the heads was to confirm ShKanon's alibi (at least partially). It gave Hideyoshi the option to easily make no one look at the corpse, at least. The blood on her door has confused me for a while. Maybe it was again to assure Maria of the witch's power (the door had the anti-magic charm on it). I'm actually starting to think there may be a decent chance Maria's got a large influence in it.

>>5644645
I somehow bet that Maria's father wil make an appearancesometime.
There has always been an empty spot in the family section of the character screen.
And with the DIDs there certainly can be more characters if R07 wanted.

>>5644645

Rosa being an accomplice definitely makes sense for Episode 2. Remember the scene where all siblings are shown to be conversating with Beatrice in the chapel and only Rosa comes out to be alive the next morning?

Also don't forget that Maria met Beatrice, it is pretty much confirmed in red in Episode 6, so whoever dresses up as Beatrice definitely knew about it since well... they've been teaching her. Also the "I AM BEATRICE" part would also have to be somewhat subtler than writing exactly these words on the wall, I think using Maria for that worked out quite well.

>>5644671
That will be occupied by Ange, like in ep4, don't worry.

>>5644659
Yeha that's what I thought.
If I chekced her status screen after she died it's believed her head was smashed.

But did they really check her corspe the same way as they did with the others?
In Ep1 both Kanon and Shanon "dies" rather early. Somehow one of them have to have been playing dead, otherwise the Shkanon fails, IF she is also Beato.
That is to say if Beato really did make her appearance at the end.

>>5644683
>she is also Beato
Pretty much confirmed at the end of Ep3.

>>5644658
>Natsuhi is one of the culprit as well.

After ep V, i doubt that.

The problem with Shkannon is that it doesn't make the work more easy for the culprit, retroactive bullshit doesn't exist in ep 1-4. Shkannon would make murders harder.

>>5644655

Quite a curious idea and a nice alternative to the child crush or the pony. But like the others it also fails to bring a feeling of severity with it, was it really that bad to kill for? But oh well, the other theories for Battler's sin suffer from the same flaw.

>>5644659

I think that's a pretty good idea and probably the right one. If the corpses hadn't been awefully harmed it wouldn't have been possibly to easily avoid having the Shannon thing become knows. But that makes it even more apparent that Hideyoshi is definitely in on something this episode. Maybe he was killed in the second twilight to shut him up.

>>5644695
It is different in ep5 and ep6 because people are roleplaying as dead people.

>>5644356
GERMANS????
IN /jaypee/??????????????

It might be a bit off topic.
But when Kanon died in Ep4 no one found his body or any trace of him.
Beatrice went so far as to proclaim his death with the red truth as no one could find him and confirm him.

Shouldn't this be one of the stronger implications for Shkanon?
Kanon certainly doesn't seem to have a body.

>>5644706

halt die fresse du depp

>>5644704
>because people are roleplaying as dead people.

Not ep V, Erika confirmed with the detective authority they were dead.

>>5644712
what I wonder is how he died, even with number, he was the 9th victim, where does this leave Shannon, Beato proclaimed Kanon was a victim and all.

>>5644671

What in the world is a DID? Is this supplementary material that I don't know about? I remember reading everything from EP4 such as Gohda's journal, Lambda's notes, and the omake Valentine stories, but I haven't heard anything with regards to these DIDs.

>>5644672

"Beatrice" isn't very subtle at all except when the murders start happening. The letter is given to Maria, the person dressed as Beatrice, and the letter specifically mentioned, in so many words, "I, Beatrice the Golden Witch, will kill everyone in the family over the next 24 hours if there is no heir to the Ushiromiya family fortune." Looking back at the letter, "Beatrice" would have needed to know that Kinzo was dead and the gold was up for grabs. Why she wanted someone to find it is anyone's guess...is there any clue that Rosa may have known that Kinzo was dead? I know someone approached his room to ask him something (mentioned in EP5) but I'm not sure if it was Eva or Rosa...and we already know that Rosa is smarter than she lets on...in the entire history of the game boards, she was the only one to have solved the riddle. Eva was only able to do so after Rosa gave her a vital clue, and Erika doesn't count because she was using Bernhax.

>>5644719
Moving corpses bro.

>>5644712
It is pretty much 99% confirmed no matter how much we hate it. Too much proof pointing toward it.

>>5644719
let's remember it was Virgilia under dubious conditions.

>>5644723
>What in the world is a DID? Is this supplementary material that I don't know about? I remember reading everything from EP4 such as Gohda's journal, Lambda's notes, and the omake Valentine stories, but I haven't heard anything with regards to these DIDs.

Dissociative Identity Disorder

>>5644730

I..wat
Nope, Erika was Erika.

>>5644703

Rosa beats her child for trying to make her happy. She's not exactly the most rational person, so it seems to make more sense for someone who's already had a history of instability to go on a killing spree (or orchestrate one) than for someone to just snap with no warning.

>>5644737
Virgilia was the one who confirmed the death of the 5 people dead in the first twilight in ep5 because Erika couldn't check the corpses.

>>5644740
Correct, it is highly likely that Rosa is the murderer for the 2nd ep.
It is not confirmed that the muderers stay constant for all episode.
Good example is how Erika killed everyone on the VI.

About the roleplaying dead thing.

Ep6 is pretty much a definate proof that people can roleplay dead and be declared dead by the red truth without problem.

>>5644762
they weren't confirmed dead, that's the problem.

>>5644762

Battler didn't declare them dead with the red truth..

>>5644723

Yeah I guess, but how do you explain Rosa dying in the first twilight in episode 1 then? Episode 1 seemed, to me at least, the closest to the true intentions of the mastermind.

>>5644722

Goes in line with them not having real names and possibly not real bodies. Red isn't infallible which is why I brought up the loophole to the double body problem. In the first twilight of the first game, all corpses are confirmed. If Shannon and Kanon are the same, then that means one of the corpses would be both a double and a real corpse at the same time.

Here's the line of thinking.

There are exactly 17 people.

Shannon and Kanon are the same. This means that there are 16 people.

If the red is true, then a 17th must exist in some capacity.

The 17th is victim of the murders and was never a character to begin with; hence, the 17th functions as a corpse.

The 17th has no duplicate and was made to look like Shannon or Kanon, whichever one is not "real" at the time.

No body double tricks exist for someone who doesn't have a body to begin with.

>>5644781
Wasn't there one red that denied that there were more corpses than the ones of the people presented?

The solution is simple.
There is no DID, instead there are multiple people bearing the same name on the island.

>>5644791
Its Kinzo corpse made to look like Shannon.
Probably preserved in some freezer or some shit.

>>5644781

Actually there is a pretty simple way around the corpse of Shannon problem, the red text only states that the identities of all unidentified corpses are garantueed, while Shannon's corpse, supposedly, was identified clearly by Hideyoshi since only half her head was smashed.

>>5644356
>>5644429
>>5644552
>>5644637
>>5644672
>>5644703
>>5644714

Starfish? Is it you?

>>5644770

Rosa was the culprit and mastermind, but not the killer. Something went wrong and the killer carried on as usual.

EP2, she's the only parent survivor.

EP3, she and her daughter are killed together. Rosa is impaled on a fence, Maria is strangled; supposedly a more merciful death. Negotiations broke down leading to Rosa's death, something similar to EP1.

EP4, there's absolutely no way to determine the order of deaths, Kyrie excepted. Battler wasn't there to see anything and was wandering around the mansion drunk discovering corpses. He also never spoke to anyone on the phone except for Kyrie. By then she's confirmed everyone else as dead.

The main problem that I have with the Rosatrice theory is her death as part of the First Twilight. This is remedied, by having the culprit and murderer as two different people, as I mentioned. It's a cop-out, but the only thing I can think of to keep the theory in-line.

>>5644816
Then you can say the same with Krauss, and it isn't quite fair.

>>5644799

Denied by red, at least in Kanon's case.

>>5644816

Shannon's corpse was the only one "identified," and Hideyoshi could have been mistaken. <Good.>

>>5644835

Except Battler actually saw Krauss and his narrative is relyably while Shannon's corpse was supposedly in the far corner of the room hidden behind a mountain of tools.

>>5644825

I like your line of thinking, it is definitely not the most likely theory but definitly fun to think about. If Rosa actually turned out to be the mastermind it would be fine by me.

>>5644851
Maria's the mastermind. I'm calling it now. This actually makes a good deal of the 'Trice theories unnecessary as Maria could have been lying about it all from the get go.

>>5644659
To be so rigorous about the symbology, the culprit knew that Natsuhi put the charm on the door ( I dont remember very well but I think it was placed from the inside). Well, Jessica was the one who gave Natsuhi the charm, Natushi might be involved in the crime to clean the suspicion on her family and we know that her room has a phone that "theoretically" works to contact another phones around the mansion. Is there any other possibility Im forgetting?

>>5644896
That's definitely getting pretty suspicious. I'm actually rereading through episode one right now and I'm almost at that part. I'll post any details which might be important when I get there (if someone hasn't already).

>>5644896

Well Jessica might have told Shkannon about the charm. Or maybe Jessica is an accomplice? However it's certain that she's a key figurine in this scenario. Remember how she and Doctor Nanjo attended to Kanon who then supposedly died, except this was never confirmed.

>>5644918

lol, starfish is an theoryfag now. i don't like you anymore

So does anybody still believe in Kyrietrice?
I think she's at least an accomplice in EP3 and EP4.

If we combined it with >>5644825 theory with Rosa as the mastermind, and Shkanon and Kyrie as accomplices.
I think that seems plausible, they have motives at least.

>>5644762
>>5644768
About this.

What was the case with the world of Zepar and Furfur?
Was that the ordinary metaworld? Or was it something else? It certainly wasn't the gameboard.

Also, if all of them were playing dead, doesn't that mean that none of the couples succeded with the first love trial? Or did Zepar and Furfur simply not care?

>>5644861
I called Maria being a pawn of a game that goes out of control after quite a while and not just because she acts suspicious from time to time. Her motive is restoration of "Beatrice" so all that was needed was someone egging her on.

She is also the most effective way to kill Eva and Hideyoshi during Ep 1. At nine years, she could have easily squeezed past the security chain after opening the door with a servant's key (the key in the first letter's envelope, a key she received independently, or the key from Shannon's pocket after the first twilight killings).

How would this fit in with the explosion? A credible threat? But at the time, the threat is already credible with the first appearance of the murders. This is of course, ignoring DID/shkannon/whatnot doing it for love.

>>5645021
>nine year old squeezing past security chain
I don't think that's possible.

Didn't we agree that Shkanon cut the chain, killed Eva and Hideyoshi, and then tied the chain with a fishing line or something before cutting it again when the others arrived?

>>5644976
Starfish was a fag all the time, just look at his fucking blog. Also he's on Animexx, which is a german Gaia.

>>5644352
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h_Ｎ
laim n d zp fr kegbfgoevmav fnskwq yx u hg

>>5644896
I've confirmed that it was on the inside. This makes things very confusing. I just can't see Natsuhi as a culprit for episode 1. It always seems to be against her favor. It's also interesting to note that Genji didn't mention the blood at all until Natsuhi noticed it. You'd think he'd be a little more worried about that.

>>5645066

She didn't even have to reset the chain, it was already cut when everyone else arrived. The only one that was there the moment the chain was cut, according to the game, was Genji, who could easily be an accomplice.

>>5645019

It was the magical world on the gameboard, there have always been many layers of magic worlds only one of them being the meta world. Like there also was the "golden land" in the Ange part of episode 4 or the golden land where Maria battled with Erika in ep 6.

>>5644429
This red doesn't apply if they are NOT corpses, and just playing dead. It doesn't say that they are dead, for christ sake. Battler saw them vaguely, but he can be mistaken, detective is not a god or Erika.

>>5645066
I'll err on the side of the game on this one, if so be it, but I have squeezed myself out of a hotel room through the gap of the door's security chain when I was much younger. I used to sneak down to the Holiday Inn's arcade at night.

>>5645131

Er... this is episode one. Their heads were fucking smashed for christs sake, so anyone that caught a glance would know at once that they're dead. I think calling play dead on the first murder of the games is a bit much.

Don't worry, anon, i'll clear all your doubts.
Expect me in August.

>>5645154
Not really, their faces were smashed, not the heads. It's not as certain, as chopping head, make-up helps. At least someone can be alive, and you can't really prove the opposite.

Otherwise enjoy your shkannontrice, all other riddles were meant to create witch's illusion.
/thread

>>5645161
YOU AGAIN

don't break my heart, pony-san ;_;

And now for something completely diffrent... well not exactly.

But what about the closed room sequence at the beginning of episode 3. I still don't get it, especially now with the Shkannon thing added. How did they pull it off?

Also remember that Beato stated in red that there were only FIVE master keys. But if Shannon and Kanon are the same person that leaves one spare Master Key... who would be the wielder of that last key?

>>5645406
How is it hard?
Sayo put the bodies of Genji, Kumasawa and Kinzo in their respective closed rooms, get out of them using one of her master keys, she has 2 because Krauss and Natsuhi are morons who think Shannon and Kanon are 2 different persons.

She goes to the first room, prepare the letter with the first master key inside and play dead.
Parents come in, see her body, take the master key and the envelope and go to the next closed room.

Sayo gets up, go outside by the broken windows, go to the chapel, change clothes and become Kanon, use the last master key to close the room and play dead.
That's all.

>>5645161
I believe, Pony Van Dine! I believe!

>>5645441
Both Shannon and Kanon were dead.

>>5645406
The answer was with Kinzo, no?

His study had a separate key, and he was already dead to begin with.

>>5645441
And how she's killed?
*6 people: Kinzo, Genji, Shannon, Kanon, Gohda, and Kumasawa are dead!*

Also, what kind of magic 'fatal wound' can be fatal only to certain personalities and not the entire body?
*All of them had wounds resembling gunshot wounds which became fatal!*

>>5645441
Also, goddamn Sayo's body can't even fucking lift a bag of fertilizer in ep1, much less carry dozen corpses around fucking mansion.

>>5645476
Personalities can die and the bodies can still move around, fucking read episode 6

>>5645490
The key word there is RESSEMBLING.
Learn to red text

>>5645500
You know there are tools for that, right?

>>5645513
It doesn't matter shit what they are resembling, fucking moron, they became fatal nonetheless.

>>5645531
Fucking learn to read first and we will talk.

>>5645441
Its also of note that there was another door in the boiler room which had no lock, mentioned in EP1 when Kanon 'meets' Beatrice

>>5645539
Beatrice confirmed that the boiler room is a perfect closed room so no.

>>5645541
I can't say for sure unless I read that part again, but the door was there in EP1 and could not be locked, as it led into the interior courtyard, which also had no locks, so Im going to assume there is some word play involved

You guys think there is only 2personalities?
Go reread the end of ep3 and end of ep4 again.
You guys are missing out on the most obvious personality which I dont want to name.
You will know about this unless you are a retard like what R07 expected from his readers.

guys guys guys,without love it cannot be seen!

magic symbols are so that maria believes everyone is
coming back in the golden land, we have proof from the gentle death and general survival of maria that the culprit loves her,and she loves him/her/it back since she believes everything they do

blood on natsuhis door could be her son trolling her
without any relation to the twilight's

>>5645553
if you are that smart just fukken say and stop bullshiting

>>5645553
Yes, we are aware that 'it' has at least 4 personalities, which can switch at will, don't count towards the number of people, can be killed by 'it' somehow, without it being considered suicide, exist separately or at the same time, depending on the situation, etc, etc. Thanks for reminding us.

>>5644989
Kyrie is definitely /something/ in the third game, because she blasts Nanjo's face off.

I'm a firm believer of the MarGeoBattJessiShKanontrice

I'm a firm believer that the meta-seagulls will come back and murder the Game Masters.

>>5645513

I refuse to believe the "one personality can die in red text" part about Shkannontrice. If the red confirms either Shannon or Kannon as dead then they fucking stay dead. I won't believe that it was the 'Beatrice' personality that moved the corpses around.

>>5645567
So much bullshit right and yet it dodges all the red truths and make them true.

>>5645621
Then how the fuck do you explain the fact that Shannon and Kanon die at different times and places in episode 2 and 4.
Please try.

>>5645640
Multiple Shannons and only one of them has a Kanon personality so that we can avoid the red text.

>>5645640

Episode 2 only states Kanon's death in red, so Shannon was dead the moment Kanon's death was stated.
Episode 4 works with pretty much the same explanation, the moment Kanon's death was stated in red Shannon was already dead.

>>5645667
Multiple Shannons? which one(s) did Battler flirt with?

>>5645684
Doesn't work.
First Kanon is confirmed dead in Jessica's room.
Then Shannon's presence was confirmed with the group.
So Shannon was still alive.

Also it's stupid.

>>5645694
Every single one of them.
And so did Kinzo, and Rudolf.

>>5645694
>>5645707
They have a pet seagull named Shannon.

>>5645098
Well that's true, but what made me react the most about Zepar's and Furfur's world was how Kanona dn Shanon summoned George and Jessica to the magical world, yet there they met Battler, and all of a sudden everyone knew he was the gamemaster? I guess it doesn't really matter and that I shouldn't care, I found it a bit strange though.

But what about the love trial? I guess there are lots of things one shouldn't take too seriously, but they did say they were supposed to kill them, yet all of them was just playing dead.

UMINEKO: WHERE PERSONALITIES DIE WITHOUT PSYCHOLOGICAL HELP.
Rokkenjima sounds like swell place to be.

>>5645724
Metaphor and symbolism. The most important point about this LOVE BATTLE is why only 1pair can succeed.
They only have 1body.

>>5645723
FAP FAP FAP FAP FAP

>>5645741
They die from magical delusional battle bro.

>>5644356


where it says that Hideyoshi lied?

>>5645750
That makes even lesss sense.
But then again Japan is shit in medical skills so i accept that end.

>>5645723
Red: No life forms other than humans have any connection to this game

>>5645704
Red: Kanon was killed in this room
Red: No one exists in this room except all of you. 'All of you' refers to Battler, George, Maria, Rosa, Genji, Gohda, and Shannon
Red: When Jessica's corpse was discovered, only Battler, George, Maria, Rosa, Genji, Gohda, Shannon, Kumasawa, and Nanjo were in Jessica's room

Hm... I agree it's difficult. But it could be a timing of the statement in red trick. Or maybe Shannon was dead and her corpse was in the room?

>>5645767
Think of this way.
Personality A and Personality B duke it out in your brain.
A win so B got killed off.
Thus you are left with Personality A.

>>5645762
Well, we know that Nanjo lies all the time. Either that, or he's a crappy doctor.
He probably even fudged Kinzo's pre-game diagnosis.

>>5645778
Or just that personalities can die at different times?
Magic battle and all, you know all these shitty metaphores.
Fuck I don't even know why I'm still arguing about it, I'm really getting tired of Umineko.

since Kanon went mad and missing in a few episodes. There is no doubt that at least he helped, lied or even killed someone.

>>5645791

Hideyoshi, not Nanjo.

>>5645778
Simple.
Ace Detective/Master Troll Erika pulls Kanon out of the room.

>>5645724
The whole damn shit doesn't have sense at all except LOLOLEVSHKANNONTRICE. Don't try to use logic, it won't work.

>>5645820
Nanjo was also confirming the bodies in the storehouse.

>>5645853
Are you kidding me? Do you still believe in Nanjo?
Once Kinzo was confirmed dead from the start, Nanjo reputation is gone. Not to mention the bank account that was implied to have pay him off.

>>5645867

Nanjo is the mastermind! Everything makes sense now!

>>5645867
That's what I meant (same person as >>5645791 who was responding to >>5645762 ).

>>5645778
>>5645749
>>5645723
But the seagull is not a lifeform, it's a witch!

>>5645890
With three split personalities.

Hideyoshi is the culprit. End of story

I think George is the culprit. From Battler's perspective, he has no sin to himself, but from the outside. George thought that he likes Shannon, so he became a pussy. Take note that the confessions he make every time were just a delusion.

>>5646096

yeap, he is just crazed because he was a faggot for so many years in his youth and he recently realised it. So he made fake memories and imaginary love scenes

Did you guys ever think there might be a different killer for each ep?

>>5646220

It's pretty obvious that not the same people are killing all the time, but there is probably one, maybe two underlying conspiracies behind it all that we're trying to figure out.

As others have already noted, Maria is likely to have have some connection with the culprit, right?

Her knowledge of the occult and all the magic ccircles etc have already been noted, but just think of the fact that she was the one who sent the bottles (the very first at least).

"By the time you have read this, I will probably be dead.
The only difference will be whether there is a body or not.
You who have read this.
Please find out the truth.
That's my only wish.

—— Ushiromiya, Maria"
That's quite some insight for someone that young if she didn't have a clue of what was going on.
Supposedly Beatrice told her of the epitath and how it was going to be carried out, she was after all, all over the golden land in each episode.

But still
"Please find out the truth.
That's my only wish."
What's her interest and how could she predict it?

>>5646137
Wait what, is that true? I really gotta Finnish ep6 right now.

>>5646220
Well sure, but there should be a signifcant connection between all of them.
I could guess that what people were in on it and which ones cooperated could possibly differ, otherwise I belive the "mastermind" should be the same.

All of the episodes tries to explain one and the same real event after all.
If the culprit and the plot all differ from eachother in each episode, then they would describe different events rather than one and the same, wouldn't they?

>>5646273
There are something about his past that is really weird. I mean about how his personallity changed.

And here a new Theory! What about George IS Shannon?

>>5646323
>What about George IS Shannon?
I am not so sure that would work.

One thing for sure though is that somethings are really off about the whole
Battler, Jessica, Kanon/Beatrice/Shanon, George love "triangle".

Shanon got bullied by Natsumi, kill herself. George seek revenge

>>5646374

Yes i agree, somethng is werid about the love pairs.

well if you see George's past you' ll notice that his character is sure one of the most weird. I mean his hate for his cousins, his inferiority complex he suddenly realised, his abuse from her mother in order to become a perfct heir. Well it dont takes long for a break down and starting to imagine things about the perfect girlfriend who helped him break free from all of these

>>5646254
I don't know why she wrote the bottles.
Presumebly Ryu07 just used her as Maria seemed to be keen on writing things, keeping a diary and a notebook and so on.

I don't know if it will be explained.
If it isn't ellaborated on in Ep7 then I doubt it will be at all, Ep7 will be the answer episode after all.

so....the game is concluded at ep6 (in a way cheesy and retarded beyond belief) and the next, possibly final episode will be about solving all unsolved puzzles?

I seriously don't know how to feel about it, something tells me there is still a chance this is just all a huge troll.

Shkanon is so obvious yet it is almost completely without love. besides, I still don't see a theory that perfectly explains the bank notes, money etc which happen outside the game board and should be considered "real"

Shannon is everyone.

Shannon hive mind

what if we consider the island as a living being?

>>5646630
now where getting eva deep

I have one theory regarding Ryu07.

The reason he so wants everyone to think and simply not just read the stuff is because he wants everyone to come up with crazy theories and post them all over the web.

Thing is, Ryukishi writes each episode one at a time on purpose, simply because he actually reads the fans' responses and theories, and he uses it when he writes.

Sure now one almost have to believe in ShKanon, but do you really believe it was the case since episode 1?
And if everyone and not just some believed in it, he would take action to avoid it.

>>5646965

If somebody posted a brilliant, complete non-shkanon theory, I bet 7E would begin with

>>>/h/ere I, Van Dine, stand in the parlor and am observing with my flawless detective eyes Shannon and Kanon who are totally two different people occupying two bodies, one per. Also cursory groping of their privates reveals that Shannon has girl parts and Kanon is male.

>>5646965

That's pretty much confirmed. e.g. I read somewhere that he was going to keep the "kinzo is confirmed dead" until ep5 but due to so many fans suspecting it he revealed it in ep4. Also he included the "Witch Hunt" guys because he heard about Witch Hunt translating the game to English.

>>5646965
He follows the same strategy that was mentioned in ep 6: As long as you avoid a logic error, you can change the story however you want. The only true sin a person can make is to contradict themselves.

Whether or not one can consider this good writing, however, is up for debate. But R7 clearly seems to hope that above all else, his work is consistent.

>>5646254
Why is the Umineko fandom here getting dumber every minute? The writing in the bottle didn't match with Maria's.

The other thread talks about Rosatrice and people never mentioned the hardcore implication that Rosa had already solved the epitaph and ponders, and then acts a bit differently about it, depending on the circumastances.

Don't even make me started on ShKanon.

>>5646573
Yes, also E6 confirms by the name of BGM that the whole 34 symbolism about Shannon and Kanon is completely intentional.

Why would Battler 'chase Lambdadelta out of the board' for his game, using GM rights, I wonder?

I still don't get how the hell do I make ShKanon out of E1-4 other than 'it explains stuff'.

>>5647370

Well for starters it catches the eye that Battler never meets the two of them at the same time. Also their conversations are very resemblant of Gollum and Smeagol at times, there is also that scene in Episode 2, I think, where Shannon talk to Kanon and then Genji appears and the scene proceeds just as if Kanon had never been there.

It was called before, though mostely people believed that Kanon was a seperate person that died before the game started and Shannon was made to dress up as him to cover the death up since Natsuhi and Krauss couldn't afford the police sniffing around the mansion since they still had to cover up Kinzo's death.

>>5647370
Optional tools: tinfoil hat, dowsing rods, E-meter.
Also, you have to put yourself in an Asian mindset. Squint.
If Shkanon doesn't begin to unravel before your eyes while reading the VN you have nothing to worry about.

>>5647428

Doesn't Beatrice's statement that "Person = Body" mean that Shannon and Kanon must be in separate bodies? Both Shannon and Kanon have been stated to be people in red text a few times.

>>5647428

Unless I'm missing something here, doesn't Beatrice's statement that "Person = Body" mean that Shannon and Kanon must be in separate bodies? Both Shannon and Kanon have been stated to be people in red text a few times.

>>5647789 png
OH NO YOU DIDN'T

The People =/= Bodies problem is there for a long time, like "Six people, including Kanon and Shannon are dead" and "There are five master keys, one for each servant" makes it seem especially dumb.

>>5647814
Maybe Shannon is already dead.

>>5647814
If Rosa survives enough in a game, she can solve the epitaph. Same for Eva.
I

>>5647789
No it doesn't.

Culprit for Ep 1=Kanon

>>5648059
I don't think so, Tim.

>>5648040
Well, yes, but it does make quite a lot of sense - it explains a lot of her behavioral patterns, because she doesn't really have the balls to accept that responsibility - she is afraid of not being able to argue back to other siblings and stuff. So she allies with Rosa and gives an important hint to Battler, while asking him to share. She needs money, but doesn't think she can quite handle ten tons of gold.
So, it explains the whole E2 closed room, the whole E2 to begin with, and also why does she mostly get killed right away.

>>5647814
>There are five master keys, one for each servant
I don't see any problem...
Shkanon
Kumasawa
Gohda
Genji
hmmm maybe Nanjo counts as a servant ?

>>5648160
Nanjo isn't a servant.
She is a friend of Kinzo and his doctor.

>>5648143 *allies with Eva
God fucking damnit

>>5648056

Then why isn't Kanon counted among the people in the next room over at the time of it being sealed? Shannon is there, so Kanon must also be there right?

Kumasawa is Beatrice for Maria.
Kumasawa was the only one who doesn't explain where she was when Maria was in the garden...

>>5648191
Disregard that, why is Erika obviously and according to all logic inside of the the last room she is pointing at herself, while standing in the hallway?

If I had to guess, she simply isn't counted into 'everyone'. It seems like the strongest point for "Erika is fictional"

>>5648232

I was confused about that as well, when she said everyone else is in that room I was like "well what about yourself Erika-chan?"

>>5648196
>>5648196

At the time of the Maria in the garden receiving the letter, Kumasawa AND Shannon are both "fixing beds" with only each other as witnesses. Virgilia/Beato anyone?

>>5648232
I was thinking that too.
that "everyone" is suspicious because it includes Erika since her position was never mentioned in red.

If we assume that Erika exists and is included in "everyone" then the corridor is included in the cousins' room making it possible for someone from the cousins' room to be hiding in the corridor.

wat

>>5648278
But if ShKanon theory is correct, so Shannon wasn't with Kumasawa. Therefore, Kumasawa was the only one who doesn't had an Alibi.

>>5648278
>>5648196
Shannon says Kanon was also helping but Kumasawa doesn't say anything to this effect. They weren't just fixing beds though, they were preparing new guest rooms following a snap decision by Natsuhi, so that's going to be at least five rooms to do. Since Eva and Hideyoshi later die in one of the new rooms, I'm wondering if it's part of Natsuhi's blackmail, to ensure they'll be in a specific room later.

I think Natsuhi had the best opportunity to give the letter, and it fits with her being blackmailed. Maria would probably accept the letter came from Beatrice no matter who handed it to her; she says in the episode that Beatrice has no physical form until the revival. It's harder to explain why Maria doesn't comment when she has a gun pointed at her later though.

>>5648191
The point of ShKanon is exactly that it doesnt force people to think, as everyone thinks they solved Umineko by conveniently count Shanon/Kanon as 1 or 2 people whatever suits better.

>>5647315
But didn't Ange confirm the writing by comparing them to Maria's diary?
And that's also why she was so upset when Hachijou counterfeited maria's story.

Go reread the relevant section surrounding game 1, first twilight.

Shannon's corpse is specified as being in the back of the shed behind some stuff, where only Hideyoshi and Kanon could see her face. We also get this text:

"If the remaining half, soaked red with blood, had been wiped clean, that graceful smiling face might have peeked out." (referring to Shannon's corpse)

When Natsuhi suggests they cover their faces before the close it up, Eva panics and objects to tampering with the crime scene, but reluctantly allows them to lock it with a padlock.

Following that, when they find blood in the dining room and leave, there's this:

"It was almost as though the last person in the room would be trapped in there, all alone."

So I've long held the belief that Shannon is alive, the sole survivor among the people in the shed, and that Eva and Hideyoshi, at least, know about it, quite possibly due to them being the murderers. Shannon would know where the key to the shed was kept, and they could return it after locking.

There's the added evidence that this makes the shed into another closed room. Shannon works well for solving some of the later mysteries if she's still alive, but that requires her to escape from the shed while Natsuhi has the key to the padlock. I don't think Ryushiki would make that closed room unless he was going to use it later.

Shkannon-theory kind of fucks this up unless Kanon or Shannon's corpse is fake, which is one reason I'm dubious of it. There's too much evidence for Shannon faking it in the shed. I expect, given the massive amounts of allusion to it ep6 gives us, that there will be some sort of Shkannon-like truth, but I don't think they're going to be sharing one body, at least not in every route.

>>5645867

you are right, and i wanted to point this out as well. once Kinzo is confirmed to have died, Nanjo has absolutely no justification for being on the island. he may have been paid to act as an accomplice, but considering his cowardly and somewhat below-average intelligence, i would be unwilling to believe any more than that.

fundamentally, why the hell is Nanjo even on the island?

why was his presence necessary?

why Nanjo in particular, an outsider with no blood connection to the Ushiromiya family?

perhaps the mastermind needed someone who would be able to deceive the family by "positively" performing autopsies?

Here's a thought: what if Shannon's real name is Kanon and Kanon's real name is Shannon?

>>5648740
It's easier for Natsu and Krauss to hide Kinzo's death when his personal doctor is here.

>>5648740

He was needed to keep up the illusion of an alive kinzo. He's the physician there to pronounce him dead and administer medicine and such to the "Ailing" Kinzo.

You can't confirm that any of the corpses are real. That's because you can't confirm whether or not they are corpses. For instance, take Krauss. You could see half of Krauss's face, it probably really Krauss in the shed, but he could be faking his death with a make-up job on his face. This also applies to the ones who have their full faces apparently smashed.

>>5648191
Know I don't quite know what I think about that move of Ryu07's, possibly not good.

But wasn't the whole thing basically how Kanon in fact wasn't in the cousin's room.
And the only reason for why he "wasn't" in the next room over was because of how he at the moment was in a dormant state with Shanon active.

That's how he could all of a sudden just dissapear/not having been there from the begining, and all of a sudden leap out the window of the next room over without breaking the seals.


Going by this whenever both Kanon's and Shanon's corpse was found in any of the previous episodes, one of the corpses wouldn't even need to be fake, it simply didn't need to exist even though it was confirmed dead.
Thought hat isn't much of a problem as Kanon's corpse is never found in 2 of them at least.


This raises one question though.
Battler never had the detective's authority (though did he ever see both Shanon and Kanon either?), but Erika did in Ep5 and the detective cannot be mistaken.

>>5648740
>below-average intelligence
What made you think this?
And while one doesn't have to be smart to succeed in studies (it certainly does help though), the education needed is certainly high, and wasn't Kinzo also kind of a Chess pro?

>>5648776

Yeah, that's makeup all right.

>>5648808
Also, Nanjo knows a lot of detective fiction. That's a hobby shared by intelligent characters in the story. Eva, Battler, Erika and Nanjo. He's a doctor after all.

>>5648764

granted, but that would implicate them as the people who paid Nanjo off, as i can't imagine Nanjo doing it for free.

i was always under the impression that Nanjo was being blackmailed very badly, as evidenced by the fact that he mentions his granddaughter in Ep3. i do not think it's a red herring or a throwaway comment, as it's something that he's professing at the moment of his death to someone who does not know about his predicament (therefore, not the blackmailer).

The significance of this conclusion is that the person who was Nanjo’s killer =/= Nanjo’s blackmailer. For a long time, I had suspected that the only people intelligent and resourceful enough to blackmail him were Kyrie and Eva. Kyrie is popular concluded to be Nanjo’s killer in Ep3, which means she cannot be the blackmailer.
I am being verbose here, I know, but I think that it’s somewhat significant to realize the fact that the mastermind had access to money. All of the parents are revealed to be in dire need of money, as can be seen by their consistent insistence on getting as much of the inheritance for themselves throughout all the Eps. Nonetheless, the mastermind paid off many people in order to further their ends. Isn’t that strange? Who financed the payoffs?

>>5648808

i read the scene in Ep6 in which Battler and Erika discuss the cheese problem as a nearly canonical 'power-ranking' for their intelligence. with nothing on the line, i beleive the parents answered honestly, and that their replies reasonably reflected their intelligence. Nanjo was one of the last to respond. also notably, Kyrie does not contribute at all, furthering that one anon's assertion that she 'knew the answer, but wanted other people to find it out for themselves'. wildly extrapolating here, and tossing out crazy ideas, but this is somewhat consistent with Beato's behavior.

>>5648816
Looks like makeup to me. Same trick is used in And Then There Were None.

So. Before the thread completely auto sages into death, let me ask one question.

Who else is looking forward to Trollkastels version of the game? Before she's always trolled and tormented from behind the scenes, now she has full authority as game master the trolling potential has increased to an almost infinite capacity.

>>5648845
It's too bad Beato isn't Kyrie though.

>>5648845
It's possible he wasn't that interested.
Also chosing not to be hasty (in fact it doesn't matter if one's just normally slow), it doesn't need to say anything about actual intelligence, it's more of a personality thing.

>>5648874
She'll just get herself killed.

perhaps, but that scene did manage to convince one thing for me

Natsuhi is as dumb as a brick

the truth hurts

>>5648913
That's old hat.

>>5648877

i always thought it was possible that Kyrie was Skirttrice

>>5648921
She first appears in the one episode Kyrie is confirmed to be dead from the first twilight.

>>5648927

Skirttrice appears first in Ep2, and Kyrie supposedly saw her go upstairs

>>5648855

...Yes clearly they applied makeup that pulled their teeth out and caved their skull in.

>>5648939
But then Kyrie dies, and Skirtrice is still appearing in the episode.

>>5648940
The manga shows a very gorey scene, that's not through anyone's eyes. In the dark of the shed in the middle of the storm, to a distressed Battler, makeup is a possible.

We need to make a page with important events in each episode in chronological order, as well as the episode reds. This would make it so much easier to come up with/test theories.

>>5648845
What? Rudolf comes up with the answer, then Kyrie agrees with him. She seems to think it's the cut three times thing.

>>5648939

ah true, but there is an inherent complication here ... we assumed that Battler's pov is reliable, and at the end of Ep2, he sees Kinzo and Skirttrice in Kinzo's study. however, Kinzo is obviously dead, and it's confirmed in red that no one would mistake Kinzo. so we can't be sure about the credibility of Skirttrice's appearances.

nonetheless, i mostly agree with your assessment, Ryu07 did state that the Fantasy scenes weren't pointlessly included in the story. no point in misleading the readers in that way.

>>5648957
It would make it easier for anyone to come up with a theory that merely works with the possibilities but makes little sense if you evaluate the entire context.

>>5648855
Nobody took a close look at him in that book, it was just a little red on his forehead, the only guy who inspected him closely was the doctor.

Because he's the acommplice.

>>5648957

There's already a list of every Red truth available. Just do some searching.

>>5648969
In the end Battler's PoV isn't reliable. He didn't have the kind of powers Erika had in episode 5. However, he's probably reliable 95% of the time. When he gets stressed out, he can probably be wrong. This wouldn't happen with Erika, but we never get Erika as a first person detective.

Red Truth here:

http://umineko.wikia.com/wiki/Red_Truth

some interesting theories here:

http://docs.google.com/View?id=dcqczgpv_4ccmhmwdp

>>5648776
While this is true, I took from Ep5 and 6 that corpses can be guaranteed dead if killed in a particularly brutal way. Decapitation, sliced throat, and stomach stuffed with sweets all fit. I'd count a smashed up face as well.

If you're right then the only guaranteed deaths in Ep1 are Eva, Hideyoshi and Natsuhi, at least until the explosion. I can't think of a good reason why just those three would die. If Shannon and Kanon are separate people, then it could be a mistaken revenge by Kanon; the kitchen scene with the servants and Battler could be used to support this. But Shkannon messes this up.

>>5648974
Just like Umineko, except this time there's a little more red and maybe some white rocks scattered about.

>>5648989
Thats handy. Thanks.

>>5648997
I'm not saying every death that could be faked is faked. I'm just saying you could be wrong if you assume absolutely that all those in the shed (except Shannon) were dead. Additionally, you can't be sure Hideyoshi is dead. Battler never actually saw his corpse, and the reds for that room could only refer to one murder. While it was impossible for one to kill the other then commit suicide, it's possible for one to have killed the other then faked their death. Hideyoshi was killed by another person, but this could have been the person who sets the bomb.

>>5648969

That scene had a 3rd person narrator. Hell, Eva shooting Battler in EP3 did as well.