/jp/ - Otaku Culture

Why is Umineko so over-appreciated in the West?

not enough porn and lolis

ITT overrated shit

overrat shet

Japs has no taste

Because the characters are adult, there a no "cool character XD GOGOGO SHIROU!!1", no loli, porn, cg, only 2-3 decent waifus and it requires actually a brain.

>>5637497
Or simply because it's shit?
Yeah it seems to be a more reasonable explanation.

BUT THERE ARE NO ROUTES

AND I CANT FUCK ANYONE

WHAT THE HELL THIS IS LIKE SOME SORT OF STUPID BOOK

>>5637497
>>there a no "cool character XD GOGOGO SHIROU!!1",
Are we reading the same shits?
And Umineko is full of moe and shit.
Also the first 3 there >>5637466 are all ages as well.

And "Umineko requires to be smart", best joke I've heard in a while.

>>5637501
>77
>shit

>>5637501
>Or simply because it's shit?

Nope, seeing how Clannad and F/SN are so much appreciated despite the fact that they are garbage confirms Japan shitty tastes.

Well...Umineko has more fanarts than other VN's

>>5637510
>Are we reading the same shits?
>And Umineko is full of moe and shit.

Battler is an idiot for most of the time and all the Meta characters (who appear only later) lol at him.

>And "Umineko requires to be smart", best joke I've heard in a while.

I never said that, i said it require a brain and you actually try to think what the fuck is going on, instead of choosing the next best girl do date.

Because people on EGS have played many VNs so they realize that Umineko just isn't that great, compared to the West where most Umineko fans have little experience with the medium. Are you really trying to tell me that it's better than the other games you listed?

And 77 isn't that bad. It's probably what Umineko deserves.

>>5637520
They are actually pretty good and I can see how some people would have them as favorites.
Umineko though, honestly I can't say anything good about it except for the fact that it has an awesome soundtrack.

Writing is shit, it's fucking stupid, characters are bland, the events all go for the most stupid conclusions, etc...

>>5637504
Then why was Higurashi much higher up?

>>5637533
Because it's a doujin.
Popularity =/= number of pics in Pixiv.
For example, Fortune Arterial that is an absolute best seller and probably in the top 3 of the best sales in the past 5 years only has about 72 pics in Pixiv.

>>5637466
>higurashi
>88
Why are you using the median and not the average?

>>5637543
>Likes F/SN and Jun maeda shit
>Criticize Umineko writing and characters

How am i suppose to take you seriously?

I bet you are one of those people who cried for Clannad and think Shirou is a good and well written character.

>>5637561

Anime with lolis.

The only people more full of themselves than R07 are these idiots who parrot that "KEEP THINKING" rhetoric all the time.

>>5637563
All the scores are medians.

>>5637566
I'm far from being a fan of both of them but they are both much better than Ryukishi.
Nasu has some big problem in term of pure writing skill but he know how to create an universe and he actually tries to develop some really interesting concept.

And Maeda actually knows how to write, you can dislike the stories he does or whatever if you want but in term of pure writing skill, he is better than Nasu or R07.

Umineko is a pile of shit
Ryukishi is a talentless hack

>>5637566
So what was wrong with Shirou's character?

>>5637591
Yea, why?

VN = genre for young schoolboys (you won't deny that, don't you?), Umineko has no sex, no lolis, no harem, no routes, shitty CG. So why does schoolboys should play it?
They don't
And where is Saya no Uta in this list?

>>5637566
Funny since Ryukishi's favorite VNs are Tsukihime and Air, both written by Nasu and Maeda respectively.

>>5637615
Maybe you should actually look at the list. Many of the top titles are all-ages.

Maybe it's the shit art, the stolen music, the childish writing, the terrible pacing and the "mystery" that's actually all about playing with words?

Cause Umineko is badly written shit that's popular with underageb&s.

>>5637615
Ever17: No school, no sex, only 1 loli like Umineko.
It's at the top of the top.

Stop trying to excuse your shit.

>>5637562
I'm saying it in a sense that Umineko is not under-appreciated

>>5637497
>it requires actually a brain

>>5637596
>Nasu has some big problem in term

Nasu writing style is shit

>he know how to create an universe

True

>and he actually tries to develop some really interesting concept.

And he fails. Expecially when it comes to explain his universe, it's like reading a shitty encyclopedia.
Terrible. F/SN and Shirou are the proofs he can't write anything to complex.

>And Maeda actually knows how to write,

Maeda is pretty much an average fanfction writes, he can't write any complex character AT ALL, most of his sad moment are cliché he keeps repeating over and over.

"Baaaw, she's sick, bawww: Isn't she cute? Uguu, Nyaaaa"

Jeez, even Nasu is better than him, at least he tries.

>>5637650
>Implying Maeda is responsible for Uguu

>>5637633

Good arts, waifu, routes, cg and it's the best mindfuck ever.

>>5637633
>Ever17: No school, no sex, only 1 loli like Umineko.
>no sex
insertthepen.jpg

>>5637667
>Implying i implied that

I didn't.

>>5637630
>>5637624
>>5637602
>>5637572
All of these.

>>5637485
Then why the fuck are you here? We're here because we enjoy this shit.

>>5637650
Maeda only wrote Makoto and Mai's routes in Kanon.

>>5637612
It generally gives a more accurate score since there are usually a lot of outliers from trolls who give stuff 0's just because they don't like a company or writer.

>>5637616
He was heavily inspired by Key when he wrote Higurashi, which is probably why it was actually good.

>>5637682

You guys totally miss the point, don't you?

>>5637623

>75. Saya no Uta
Hm...
They grade it even lower then Umineko
>>5637633
I dont' excusing Umineko
For me it is no more than copy of old story about ten small nigras with mahou and shitty drawing pantsugirls.

Geez you fucking tard, vn are appreciated for Waifus and shit like that.

The writing style hardly matter and most of the people are stupid.

Nasu can't write, and look where he is.

>>5637692
What point? You use Uguu in your example to show how bad he is which he didn't even write.

>>5637698

>I aren't

sure

>>5637698
Actually Saya has a median of 81.
If you look at the average, Umineko only has a 73.

>>5637710

I was trying to point how most of his characters try to use your typical "sick and moe" pater, uguu was just the first shit i came out.

He used Nyaa for Yui from Angel Shit.

>>5637728

>Actually Saya has a median of 81.

What?
Give me a link please.

No Saya has a median of 83. The mean is 81

I didn't know japs like Symphonic Rain. Well, that makes sense for me now, I always wondered why such a good VN was never discussed or pointed out, etc.

>>5637742
http://erogamescape.dyndns.org/~ap2/ero/toukei_kaiseki/game.php?game=3193#ad

Japan has good taste for once.

>>5637796
>KEY
>Type-Moon
>good taste

I actually liked Umineko until I saw the score on EGS. I doubt I'll even finish EP6 now.

>>5637808

Tsukihime and KnK are good

But yeah, F/SN is shit

>>5637762
You haven't seen all the threads asking for help with things that were explained in the readme?

>>5637808
Yeah, how can they like something popular? Fucking Japs, get some taste and start only liking obscure shit.

>>5637817
I did. But I saw very few appreciation/discussion threads for such a good VN, I'm using Ever17 as comparison for that.

Visual novels, not so good.

>>5637834
There was a series of maxed out threads when we first got a working patch.

>>5637834
>Symphonic Rain
>Good

>>5637850
>Your opinion
>Good

In this thread, "I don't overly enjoy one person writing style" is equal to "THEY CAN'T WRITE FOR SHIT" even though they actually have no experience with the writing style at ALL, going on only the translations.

This is why /jp/ is retarded, you all act like you know the difference between something good and something bad when you most assuredly don't.

>>5637501

Yeah, because shit and popularity are always inversly proportional.

Except when you want to use popularity as another reason Umineko is shit.

>>5637891
Umineko is popular?

>Ever17
>91

Japan sure is picky about which retarded mystery to appreciate and not

>>5637878
>>5637878
zing

>>5637886

All in all I find the nips taste in VNs less atrocious than their taste in anime.

>>5637904
Ever17 was a mystery that always promised a sci-fi twist, the foreshadowing were numerous.

Umineko promised an intelligent and well thought out mystery as well as a true discussion between mystery vs fantasy.
And what we got was a maid with DID.

No MOEEEEE
No Idiocy
No Ero
Requires Thought

Did you make the average based on every single episode? The score is bound to take a hit that way, since it's judged by single episodes instead of overall judgment and is, most of all, unresolved.

>>5637933
Go home.

>>5637933
>>No MOEEEEE
>>No Idiocy
>>Requires Thought

Thank for the laugh.

ep 1 umineko was the best in terms of getting shit done, but the series overall to me is entertaining as hell, the most fun i've had reading something

ever17 is my overall favorite vn, i can understand why the japs rated it that way though

I would accept the Umineko hate a lot more if people had a better reason than "shit writing". Usually, when most of the people who hate on something come across as jerks, it's hard to believe they're just not being jerks about it.

There seems to be this "It's not that i don't get it, it's that it's shit". I think some VNs are going to be overall better than others; Ever 17 was definitely a very "good" VN overall. However I think that not only does subjective taste apply here a lot, what people use to rate a VN as good or bad is extremely skewed and is probably harming their own enjoyment of it.

Like the art in Umineko; it's not amazing but it adds it's own charm to it.

Also if the music was "stolen", how could he get away with selling it 6 times over?

I don't think most VN authors write their own music anyway, do they? The soundtrack is still good. Ep 6 wasn't great, but that just shows that choosing the tracks and where they go is important.

>>5637951
>double quotes
thanks for the laugh.

>>5637933
You Umineko fans sure are eager to prove that you haven't read anything else on that list.

Why are people assuming that popularity has to be due to something being good or bad, when they criticise japanese taste in anime all the time?

So much circular reasoning in this thread...

I wouldn't be surprised if Umineko does poorly because 1) It's unresolved, 2) The anime wasn't great, and a lot of people such as myself did a mix of VN and anime.

>>5638012
>anime
Who is talking about anime here?

>>5638020

It's implied from the references to "Japanese taste".

My guess is they're too drawn out and don't have enough sexxx

>>5638028
First four episodes were already out before the anime you know, and the ratings were pretty much the same.

>>5638012
The Japanese anime fanbase and EGS are two different groups, the latter being much smaller.

>1) It's unresolved
The destination can't justify the poor journey to get there.

>2) The anime wasn't great, and a lot of people such as myself did a mix of VN and anime.
The scores were about the same before the anime aired.

>>5637930
>He believes in Shkanon!

Hahahahahahaha, oh fucking wow

>>5638129
On a scale of 1 to 10 I'd say your reading comprehension is a 4 at best.

>>5637921
Just because a writing style is unorthodox or difficult to understand/translate doesn't mean that it is "bad." Hell, just look at William Faulkner.

One thing is trolling Umineko calling it bad writing and etc, this i can accept.

But doing this WHILE DEFENDING LOLNASU WRITING deserves a 0/10 in the scale of trolling.

Seriously, not mentioning FSN that is the most overhyped shit since EVA but even the so acclaimed Tsukihime is nothing but a reverse Twilight.

EP 6 was so bad.
What the fuck happened?

>>5638403
Love

R07 was depressed when writing it.

>>5638048
>The destination can't justify the poor journey to get there.

That's not any kind of objective measure, you know.

A lot of people have enjoyed Umineko and continue to enjoy it.

>Implying Umineko is the best mystery/fantasy VN when the fanbase never played something better

why is clannad so high? it was shit.

>>5640102
Because it's a masterpiece.

Because Japanese don't like horror ??

>>5640102
hahaha ha kill urself fagget

>>5640141
>>5640144
Clannad is what would happen if you took a mexican soap opera and animated it. How the hell can you call it a "masterpiece?"

>>5638585
...how could the fanbase play something better if Umineko were the best?

Logic error.

- shitty art
- no high quality 3D CG cut scenes
- a lot of text

Who want to play Umineko?

>>5640141
MASTURPEICE!!!!!!!!!11111111

Umineko is to VNs as Naruto is to anime.

It's babby's first VN.

>>5640160
>I'm an ADHD Shonenf/a/g who needs flashy graphics and explosions in his BOOKS.

Get the fuck out.

>>5640153
Somehow you missed the quality of the writing at every level apart from the plot synopsis.

>>5637510
>And Umineko is full of moe and shit.
The fuck? There's nothing in Umineko that could be identified as moe.

What is Umineko's main selling point?

Music?

>>5640176
Story.

Then music.

There isn't really anything else.

>>5640176
Music, magic fights, retarded theorizing about Shkanontrice and shit.

>Tsukihime: 90
>Cross Channel: 90

Japan confirmed for no taste.

FSN is about the only thing I can't agree with there, that game was a solid 80.

I think these reviews are pretty much bullshit, honestly. Liking Higurashi as a package more than Umineko? That I can definitely buy. But when Onikakushi, which had even worse pacing than I have seen in any episode of Umineko (and that's really bad) and very little solid character development, has a higher score than EP3, which was a pretty damn good installment in Umineko? Something is wrong here.

I think Erogescape is probably just full of bitter mysteryfags.

>>5640269
Where are you seeing a score specifically for Onikakushi? And while Onikakushi's pacing was the worst in Higurashi it was still better than that of most Umineko episodes.

>>5640169
>Quality of the writing

...Do you even know what good writing is?

Good writing is animated, tightly focused and concise. Clannad's writing is none of these things.

I'll admit that it's not as bad as the bullshit Nasu puts out, but it's still shit tier when you compare it to anything remotely decent - it's bland and worse, it's bloated. Most of the "story" is dialogue, and most of the dialogue is completely unnecessary - it either doesn't introduce a conflict, resolve a conflict or develop a thematic, or it overlaps with another instance that fulfills the same narrative purpose.

On top of that, the characters themselves are written as wish-fullfillment for lonely neckbeards - and it shows. In good writing, people behave in a manner consistent with real life (the reason Mary Sues are an instant indicator of shit-tier writing). Clannad does the exact opposite. Because Key is afraid that their VN would bomb if they depicted high schoolers acting like actual high schoolers, we get characters like Nagisa and Fuuko - retard moe bullshit.

How the hell can you say Clannad has good writing?

(In before, "your opinion is wrong! Clannad has amazing writing! I would know, having not read any stories with actual good writing!" or "it moved me! it moved my cold, dead NEET heart! emotionality = brilliance!" or "I cried myself to sleep after reading it! Best.Story.Ever!" "it's entertaining, so therefore it's good writing. Anyone who disagrees is a pretentious normalfag and non-NEET!" or "go back to /lit/" etc)

Umineko doesn't even deserve a 70

CLANNAD was complete garbage. I don't understand how it is that you people can keep eating up Maeda's shit without realizing that it's shit. I mean for fucks sake all of his work is the same. He uses the same rehashed methods to invoke the same emotions every time and honestly I didn't work the first time. I find myself unable to get into stories written like crap but for those of you who can I guess you could call it entertaining, but nothing more.

>>5640327
>Good writing is animated, tightly focused and concise.
False. Writing that YOU enjoy may only include writing with those traits, but that does not define good writing. Good writing fulfills its purpose. If that purpose is to provide tension and drama, then certain traits are necessary. If it is to distract and amuse, then other traits are necessary. You were, as evidenced by your claim, looking for something that wasn't there, but this only shows that you shouldn't have been reading the work with that frame of mind.

You're like someone reading a murder mystery and then complaining at the tension and lack of comedy. No matter how well you know comedy, the same principles of content and timing do not apply.

Not all writing is in the same genre. Clannad does what it does well. That you don't like the genre doesn't disqualify it.

>>5640327
Why would you read a VN that depicted realistic high schoolers as love interests? Other than being a normalfag, I mean.

I wonder why people bother asking shit if their mind is so fucking set.

>>5640165

Not even close, you are thinking of F/SN

Beside, i'm pretty sure despite what you faggots say, a lot of Uminekofags on /jp/ played some other VNs.

Umineko is good because is entertain, and it allows you do to what other VNs can't do, it's an unique experience.

Maeda = one trick pony.

>>5637539
>>5637539
>>5637539

Anon is wise beyond his years.

>>5640451

It doesn't make sense.

Do you guys really believe Clannad and F/SN are masterpiece?

Ever17 is ok, but the other..

>>5640438
Have not played nowhere near as many as Japanese have, and we did not read Higurashi first, so people are confused by the shit R07 writes and think it's unique.
OF course, being unique doe not make it truly GOOD, like his art.

>>5640462
We definitely believe Umineko=not so good.
What we consider good seems to differ, but true shit is a bit more universal.

Umineko has no branching plot or choices, its no good for replay

Umineko is a masterpiece, it's just that the common ignorant reader cannot appreciate it. The more people rank something highly, the more shit it probably is. Appealing to more people means appealing to the unwashed masses.

>>5640463
>Have not played nowhere near as many as Japanese have, and we did not read Higurashi first, so people are confused by the shit R07 writes and think it's unique.

Nigga, please

F/SN is that list. F/SN is utterly garbage for teenage that never read anything in their life.

After all this time, how can't you guys don't know how /jp/ work?

Moe, waifu, porn. That's all they want.

Sure, some good products made in the popular spot (Ever17 deserve to be there), but overall are those the elements that make a VN good.

The writing doesn't even mater to them, Nasu is the most popular VN writer there. NASU.

>>5640475
And that's terrible.

>>5640485
Nasu is not the most popular VN Writer.
Also, let's take F/SN AND Tsukihime out. Cause you know, NASU SUCKS UWOOOOOH.
You have all the rest, available to English and still liked more in Japan.
Umineko still not so good.

>>5640486
Opinion~~

>>5640506
No, it's fact.
If I do not have a choice per 5 minutes, it is SHIT.
SHIT, I tell you.

>>5640483
sup troll

>>5640463
>Have not played nowhere near as many as Japanese have,

Yeah, just like for anime!

They have tons of anime, and K-ON is extremely popular! So was AB in the last season!

Then they must be awesome, because sure Japan doesn't have casual viewer or ronery otaku, they're all serious and look for a good and competent sto- oh wait.

>>5640504
>Implying Popular=good

umineko's premise can come off pretty fucking retarded or crazy if you were thinking of some script/story and told some about it, but its a unique one and obviously that's where the appeal comes from

>>5640532
...Where is that implied?

Without love it cannot be seen.

An explanation could be in order.

On that related how personal insecurities can misconstrue the interpretation of a work.

But unfortunately, the operation's not worth the time.

If you want to try so hard to reject something than you're too useless to matter anyway.

It's like saying "Well of course we need some people to reject it, why else would we keep

>>5640525
I'm just stating the facts. It's just how things are. The average person does not have good taste. Since the average person outweighs the not-so-average, shitty taste will dominate any ranking system, and it will be backwards.

The best masterpieces of all time actually have very low critical appraisal. That's because most people who appraise it cannot appreciate it. Unless, that is, you define "masterpiece" as being able to appeal to a stunning amount of people, in which case I'd disagree with your definition.

>>5640431
>Why would you read a VN that depicted realistic high schoolers as love interests?

Because you would rather see companies working for their money instead of feeding morons more of the same pandering, archetypal moeblob shit that's designed more with marketability than originality in mind.

>>5640387
>False. Writing that YOU enjoy may only include writing with those traits, but that does not define good writing.

My assessment of Clannad has nothing to do with unreasonable expectations or hating the romance/slice-of-life genre. Hell, number two on my list of favorite books is Madame Bovary of all things.

>Good writing fulfills its purpose.

...In the fewest words possible. You only wax eloquent when you're dealing with something of suitable importance, which is something the creators of Clannad don't understand at all - we don't need a page-long description of a meal or the meaningless dialogue accompanying it unless it's to establish character dynamics near the beginning.

>Different genres have different conventions.

What an astute observation. You must have also noticed then that there are some commonalities in all good stories, regardless of their genre.

In good stories, people behave in a way that's consistent with how real people actually behave.

In good stories, you don't use retarded conceits where you liken copulation to seafood or vomiting.

In good stories, you don't repeat yourself ten+ times or waste pages on inserting your thinly disguised bitterness against your readers.

Regardless of how good your story's premise might be, all of the above are symptomatic of shit tier writing.

>>5640528
But Angel Beats actually was the best show last season. Not that it's anything praiseworthy.

>>5640528
With all due respect man, I do no think a truly good anime was ever not qute popular or at least CRITICALLY acclaimed, even if it did not enjoy EVANGELION fame.
And I doubt you want to consider the opinion of someone from whom Umineko is the first VN. Reading many more and varied VNs is more likely to help someone get acquired taste, just like in any medium.

You try too hard to discredit FUCKING EVERYONE.

>>5640551
No, it wasn't.

>In good stories, people behave in a way that's consistent with how real people actually behave.

>In good stories, you don't repeat yourself ten+ times or waste pages on inserting your thinly disguised bitterness against your readers.

Tell R07 to stop it then.

>>5640548
>Because you would rather see companies working for their money instead of feeding morons more of the same pandering, archetypal moeblob shit that's designed more with marketability than originality in mind.
And herein lies your idea that depicting a high schooler realistically is a good thing, a thing to be praised. It isn't. Only a normalfag would think that. I would not touch a VN with a ten foot pole if its love interests were realistic high school students.

>>5640483
...This is probably a troll, but I pretty much agree. Considering some of the reviews for EP5 specifically consisted of "BAWWW WHY IS BATTLER SIDING WITH WITCHES?", I'm guessing many of the people reviewing are part of the crowd that Just Didn't Get It.

>>5640551
>But Angel Beats actually was the best show last season.
No.....
Between Tatami or maybe Arakawa

>>5640577
Or just did not like the direction of events, regardless of reasoning behind it.
It happens.

>>5640577
>that Just Didn't Get It.
I'm assuming by the arbitrary capitalization that this is some kind of article on TVTropes.

>>5640289
Check the site, dear.

And no, Onikakushi's pacing was not better than Umineko's. It was honest to god some of the worst pacing I'd ever seen in my life. It felt like the slice-of-life bullshit would never end.

>People seriously thinking that the Japanese have better taste than we do.

You guys should take a leaf from /m/ and open your eyes. Seriously, when it comes to evaluating quality, the japs are as clueless as the crunchyroll/animesuki threads. They think Gundam SEED and Gundam 00 are good, for christs sake!

That said, Umineko is shit. Doesn't deserve a higher rating than what it got.

>>5640611
Rather the crowd that votes in NEWTYPE and the fangirls that bought DVDs for SEED and DESTINY.
It's not the sole Japanese opinion.
And /m/'s tastes are also highly varied and suspect.
Aka, if their opinions are shit, ours are just as much.

>>5640592
But if you're actually paying attention to the literary quality of the work, that's just silly. Battler stubbornly continuing to deny witches for the cool factor would do nothing for the story's themes.

>>5640629
Being smart about it would help.

>>5640551

No, AB is garbage, and the confirmation that you faggot would eat Maeda shit, if you cou-- no, wait, you already did.

>>5640639
Being smart about what exactly?

>>5640608
It has to do with what we had when it first came out. Hogurashi was introduction to R07 bullshit.
If Umineko came out 10 year before, perhaps it would have been THE MODERN WORLD'S GREATEST CLASSIC.
Now, not so good.
What to do.

>>5640608

That because you already know what the fuck is going

"lol when the massacre start?"

>>5640660
Actually, I think I would've been even more frustrated if I hadn't been sure wading through all the trite club games would eventually pay off.

>I would not touch a VN with a ten foot pole if its love interests were realistic high school students.

Enjoy your juvenile wish-fullfillment bullshit.

Seriously, you guys are complaining that "BAAAWWW UMINEKO WRITING IS SHIT WHY ARE SO MANY VNS SO SHITTY AND UNREALISTIC"
The first wrong move you made was expecting DEEP literature from a VN.

What is the sales figure?

>>5640628
>It's not the sole Japanese opinion.

Not, but it's more than the 50%
Geez, things like K-on and AB are massively popular.

>FSN: 90

No.

>>5640679
Actually, we like many of the others posted.
Just not as entertaining.

>>5640679
Point is, they sell a fuckton, but I am sure KON is not exactly top critically acclaimed and touted for good writing and shit.
Moe sells.

Now, if you want to discredit every single VN the OP posted and say Umineko is better or as good, yet somehow the only one unappreciated, kudos.

>>5640608
>Check the site, dear.
I'm asking you because I did and didn't see it. There's only an entry for the question arcs as a whole.

>It felt like the slice-of-life bullshit would never end.
Fair enough, people have different tastes. Personally I wasn't reading it for the violence so I didn't mind the character-building scenes, especially since Higurashi has an excellent cast.

>>5640722
>Point is, they sell a fuckton, but I am sure KON is not exactly top critically acclaimed and touted for good writing and shit.

It was always first in all 2chan popularity and rating poll

Just like Angel Beat and Strike Witches.


Japan likes Moe, Waifu, and Sex. Jun Maeda's fanfiction there should tell you something.

>>5640676
You misunderstand. No one here is expecting anything DEEP or even anything good; it's just that there are ignorant fucks among us who think that there are VNs that are actually well-written, when actually looking at examples of good writing demonstrates to the contrary.

We're not the ones who are making misaimed arguments; it's the ones who think Clannad and Umineko are worth a damn in terms of their writing.

>>5640689
Yeah I prefer 100 for that myself.

>>5640741
2chan=! Japan, and I am sure about popularity, not so much about critical standing compared to every other anime.
And most of the VNs above hardly fill such criteria and are still liked more, so...

>>5640743
Give an example of good writing then.

Why are people bringing up Japan's taste in anime? The anime fanbase and VN/eroge fanbase are not the same.

ITT our opinions are fact

>>5640757
Oh boy here we go
>>5640758
Idiots who try to say 'everything pouplar=bad cause few bad things are also popular, thus my not as liked shit is better'. Forgetting VN crowd is much more niche.
Whatever.

>>5640758

Because otaku, genius.

Don't pretend people who watch VN in Japan don't also watch Anime

>>5640757
Planescape: Torment

>>5640743

If all VNs have shit writing, then what do you consider to be good?

Please, enlighten us with your infinite wisdom, oh noble one.

>>5640778
How about 'they do not watch bad anime'.
You cannot prove what their tastes and preferences of the VN crowd are.

>>5640758

Yeah, VNs readers are not fatty, smelly otaku, they're all intelligent people looking for a good book with pic and music. That's why Clannad is there.

>>5640795
>You cannot prove what their tastes and preferences of the VN crowd are.

F/SN and Clannad are there

>>5640778
>Don't pretend people who watch VN in Japan don't also watch Anime
They make up a very small percentage of the anime fanbase. The VN fanbase is much more niche.

>>5640802
Being fat and smelly stops you from reading a decent VN, how?

>>5640802

Clannad actually isn't a good example of what you're talking about, and you using it as such is proof that you haven't played very much of it.

>>5640809
...And?
They were highly rated and popular before their anime adaptations, and no actual other link between the two exists.

>>5640757
>>5640781
"The Princess in the meantime insinuated herself into many families; for there are few doors through which liberality, joined with good humour, cannot find its way. The daughters of many houses were airy and cheerful; but Nekayah had been too long accustomed to the conversation of Imlac and her brother to be much pleased with childish levity and prattle which had no meaning. She found their thoughts narrow, their wishes low, and their merriment often artificial. Their pleasures, poor as they were, could not be preserved pure, but were embittered by petty competitions and worthless emulation. They were always jealous of the beauty of each other, of a quality to which solicitude can add nothing, and from which detraction can take nothing away. Many were in love with triflers like themselves, and many fancied that they were in love when in truth they were only idle. Their affection was not fixed on sense or virtue, and therefore seldom ended but in vexation. Their grief, however, like their joy, was transient; everything floated in their mind unconnected with the past or future, so that one desire easily gave way to another, as a second stone, cast into the water, effaces and confounds the circles of the first."

-Rasselas, Prince of Abyssinia

>>5640829

F/SN and Clannad are garbage, not different from your average fanfction.

>>5640847
I guess the best VNs amount to average fanfiction then.
Still enjoyable though, due to pictures and music package.
Still more enjoyable than Umineko.

>>5640843
Fascinating.

So many posts using the term "bad writing" and don't bother explaining it. English translation is NOT equal to the writing of the author and even if some /jp/ users are proficient with Japanese, it's more often than not that they don't understand what constitutes "bad writing" in Japanese literature.

>>5640867
There are much better VNs than F/SN and CLANNAD.

>>5640867
>Still more enjoyable than Umineko.

No.

>>5637734
> He used Nyaa for Yui from Angel Shit.
And then had Yui beaten up for it.

>>5640891
Just no, or 'no u'?
>>5640886
Perhaps. Not Umineko.

>>5640847

Anyone who says "Clannad is garbage" hasn't played After Story.

A realistic depiction of the life of a newly married couple? Yes please.

>>5640843

...You're trolling, right?

>>5640914
>Anyone who says "Clannad is garbage" hasn't played After Story.
This is what keyfags actually believe.
>A realistic depiction of the life of a newly married couple? Yes please.
Hardly, and even if it was realistic, does that make it good?

>So many posts using the term "bad writing" and don't bother explaining it

>>5640881, see >>5640327 and >>5640548

So, we have bashing of Clannad and F/SN, saying they are shit, because they just are...
Arguing that 'popularity=bad' enen though the scores above are the average and have different amount of votes and drastically different sales...
That most VNs do not have the quality fo writing of the best books or whatever...
What were we arguing exactly again?

>>5640926
That's a bad idea of what 'good writing' is about.

>>5640914
>...You're trolling, right?

Nope. It's a good book; you should go read it.

>>5640919
>Hardly, and even if it was realistic, does that make it good?

It's... pretty realistic, yes. And whether or not something is "good" really depends on the whole "personal enjoyment" factor, but I'd say that the first half of After Story is heartwarming enough to be "good", yes.

Frankly, I don't believe you've actually played it, given how much you seem to hate Clannad and how much patience it takes to actually get to After Story.

>>5640935
>What were we arguing exactly again?
VNs are shit.
/jp/ is shit.
The whole world is shit.

>>5640944
Point is, we would rather remain in the medium discussed and have examples from there, not pull up small parts of text from books.

>>5640952
Now that is just pessimistic.

>>5640944

...What happened to good writing being concise?

>>5640781
>>5640757

"If there is anything I have learned in my travels across the Planes, it is that many things may change the nature of a man. Whether regret, or love, or revenge or fear - whatever you believe can change the nature of a man, can. I’ve seen belief move cities, make men stave off death, and turn an evil hag's heart half-circle. This entire Fortress has been constructed from belief. Belief damned a woman, whose heart clung to the hope that another loved her when he did not. Once, it made a man seek immortality and achieve it. And it has made a posturing spirit think it is something more than a part of me. "

>>5640949
> get to After Story.

The shitty force drama (not that AS isn't..) that came before still Clannad.

So yes, Clannad is shit.

>>5640982
As much as I like planescape, that excerpt alone, with no context, separate from the rest of the conversation, is just not really impressive, not it shows quality of writing, much less consistency with the world setting, atmosphere and characters. Good writing depends on all of this, well put sentences are not a definite example.
It's kinda a stupid thing to do.

I like Umineko

>>5640992
EVERY ROUTE, EVEY GIRL, EVERY SET OF INTERACTIONS, ALL SHIT.

I hate most VNs I play including CLANNAD, F/SN, and Umineko.

>My face when people in this thread implied Japan has good tastes

Jeez, Umineko hate is really on another level.

>>5640982

Finally, a decent example of good writing.

...I would say that there are many VNs which are written just as well, although admittedly more in terms of overall story and adhesion to themes than basic structure.

>>5641018

Well, yes.

Jun Maeda is shit.

>>5641022
Just as bad as ours, really.

>>5641018
Some other guy replied to your reply replying to me.
I liked some routes. Actually I liked a bunch. Some were really boring. After Story was when it really became Maeda's typical garbage.

>>5641031
Sure.

>>5641031
What about the routes Maeda didn't write?

>>5640778
It wasn't that much better in terms of writing if you ask me. Just that vn's tend to be a bit more awkward sometimes.

>>5641039

It still garbage, geez.

>>5641023
It is just a decent paragraph.
Anyone who has not full read Torment will not be impressed, and rightfully so.

>>5640738
I watch for the characters rather than the violence myself; however, watching characters play silly club games and show how they can one-up each other is not character development. I know that showing them playing together was necessary to illustrate the bond between the characters, but Ryukishi drew it out to the point of being nothing but filler.

>>5641042
>It wasn't that much better in terms of writing if you ask me

Then your tastes are shit.

Planescape writing is super, it doesn't even seem a videogame.

>>5641031

The stuff Maeda writes (except for Angel Beats) is generally pretty good, actually.

He wrote most of the better routes in Clannad (including After Story), and the parts of Little Busters that he wrote are considered the only parts of the game actually worth playing, for example.

>>5641051

Just a question

Did you watch the anime before?

Beside, you could always ctrl the club.

>>5641062
>The stuff Maeda writes (except for Angel Beats) is generally pretty good, actually.

No.

>>5641056
Are we going to have to go into my opinion > your opinion yet again? I get you prefer it but grow up. In terms of writing it's not really that much better.

>>5641071
No, or 'No u'?

>>5641077

No.

>>5641084
So, 'No u'.

>>5641066
I did, yes, but I think that should make my opinion of the VN more favorable instead of less.

My point is that the scenes are unnecessary and detract from the quality of the work. Pressing CTRL won't fix that.

>>5641071

...Could you elaborate a little on that? Saying "no" isn't really a good argument.

>>5641051

The first half of Onikakushi is designed to trick the player into thinking they're getting something completely different from the end result.

Also, the club games are pretty funny in an over-the-top sort of way.

>writing
>pacing
>opinions everywhere
It's like I'm really on /lit/.

Oh wow. Sure is an awesome Thread.

>>5640967
That IS concise. What took Clannad days in-game and pages upon pages to illustrate - that Tomoya is an outcast who thinks normalfags suck - Johnson took only a paragraph with Nekayah and with greater impact, no less.

>>5641102
I've been playing the beginning of Watanagashi and it doesn't seem to be getting all that much better.

I will admit the first few club games were fun, yes, but they get tiresome.

>>5641110
Different setting ,different circumstances, different build-ups.
Such comparisons are silly.
Do you want to be silly?

I like all the sudden Maeda hate. It seems like after Angel Beats people learned his name and started using him as a target for everything Key, instead of just saying "Keyshit" like they used to. Funny how they don't realize Key has many different writers who contribute to their VNs, and Maeda isn't even the main writer for all of them.

>>5640548
>...In the fewest words possible.
Again, no. Conciseness is not a universally positive trait.

>In good stories, people behave in a way that's consistent with how real people actually behave.
LAUGHABLY false.

>In good stories, you don't use retarded conceits where you liken copulation to seafood or vomiting.
>In good stories, you don't repeat yourself ten+ times or waste pages on inserting your thinly disguised bitterness against your readers.
...what does that have to do with Clannad?

I wish there more VNs like Umineko, in terms of being like an actual novel with pictures and music. It's enjoyable for some reason, and it's a change from just picking girls to date/fuck.

>>5641103
Nobody on /lit' would argue in favor of Umineko or try to compare VNs to books.

>>5640843
This is so pathetic it's amazing.

>>5641127
There are far too many.

>>5641121
I like most KEY works but Angel Beats! was one of the biggest trainwrecks I've seen in awhile. It certainly left me with an impression of Maeda.

>>5640954
And my point is that there are no VNs that have what's actually considered "good writing;" there are plenty that have creative and interesting ideas, but none that exhibit actual brilliance in the use of language - and for good reason.

You know how those fags on touhouproject write CYOAs because none of them have enough talent to make a normal story?

It's the same sort of deal with VNs. Because they suck at descriptions and pacing (the toughest parts to get right in a story), people like Nasu and Ryuukishi use the medium as a crutch to try and bypass what would otherwise be an insurmountable wall barring them from publication.

>>5641124
>...what does that have to do with Clannad?
He did not like Kagetsu Tohya I guess?
It had the seafoof porn analogy/

>>5641129
Yeah they'd argue about Ayn Rand and Camus. What an improvement.

>>5641139
I thought True Rememberance had pretty good writing.

>>5641147
What he's saying is not absolute, of course. Nothing is.

>>5641144
I did not say it's an IMPROVEMENT.

>>5641121
I don't know about all the Key writers but I realized a while ago that the only Key game I like is Planetarian. The game Maeda has nothing to do with. I hated all the crap he was the main scenario writer for.

>>5641110

But Clannad is ABOUT Tomoya being a social outcast who thinks normalfags suck. The entire game is about him realizing that life and people have worth.

Furthermore, although this will make me sound unintelligent, I barely understood any of that paragraph. I can't enjoy reading something that incredibly dense.

>>5641133
Could you recommend me some then?

>>5641165
You are reading something out of context about characters you know nothing about.
Whatever you get would not be accurate either way.

who gives a shit about scores, its like going too ign too see what game they shat on or what movie critics hated, which is why in the first place why i stopped looking at critics scores and tried everything myself before being judging. I didn't like cross channel, i don't even know why it got a 90 at all...

>>5641115
>I will admit the first few club games were fun, yes, but they get tiresome.

Then skip theeeem
I did the same, and i'm an Higurashi fanboy who would eat shit if Rena and K1 where in it.

You already know the characters, these shit are pointless.

>>5640548
>In good stories, you don't repeat yourself ten+ times or waste pages on inserting your thinly disguised bitterness against your readers.
Your argument is invalid.

>>5641139
Are you basing this off of translations or the original Japanese text? Because I think a lot of VNs use (Japanese) language quite well.

Also comparing VNs to novels doesn't make sense because they're different mediums with different styles and different purposes.

>>5641124
>LAUGHABLY false.

I wouldn't quite say this. Character behaviour has to be believable and consistent, which could imply "realistic".

>>5641182
You're missing my point.

My point is that if people are being forced to skip these scenes, the writing is flawed. I think Higurashi is plenty enjoyable, but people need to stop putting it on a pedestal while lamenting over Umineko.

>>5641195
It's still better while it has flaws.
Nobody said it's a 100,PERFECTIOOOOON VN.

>>5641194
>which could imply "realistic".
Since "high schoolers" were specified, I would say no. He was asking for "real people"-realism.

Character behaviour should be internally consistent, but that is all that is required. Since a character is a black box, it is difficult, if not impossible, to claim inconsistency.

>>5641178

I suppose, but regardless, using something like that as an example of "good writing" doesn't really prove your point.

>>5641185

Well, that's because House of Leaves is possibly one of the most meta things ever written...

>>5641182
Although I also found them tedious to an extent, I enjoyed them at the same time. I couldn't even imagine skipping any of it.

>>5641124
>Again, no. Conciseness is not a universally positive trait.

Being concise doesn't mean you gloss over important scenes. Being concise means that you give one or two sentences to insignificant happenings and go full bore when you're describing or recounting something important. Clannad, FSN and Umineko don't do this. All three are guilty of spending tens of pages and hundreds of words on cooking or needless introspection.

>LAUGHABLY false.
Sorry to rain on your parade, but wish-fullfillment bullshit is as low is it gets. Why do you think fanfiction and VNs are considered as below shit tier when it comes to writing?

>...what does that have to do with Clannad?

They were just examples of bad writing in general.

>>5641244

Consistent with the way the story presents them, I mean.

And yes, I agree that 'real' high schoolers would make terrible characters, which is why no one ever writes about them.

>>5641211
Hm, I disagree, though I suppose I can see why someone else would think that.

And considering the way many Higurashi fans act, you'd think their VN IS total perfection. But I suppose fandom will be fandom.

fuck this shit, you guys are just as bad as fucking shinji, fuck you guys WOULD be shinji in fsn.

>>5641195
Maybe some of us who put it on a pedestal don't think it has the same flaws as you do. I enjoyed the club scenes a lot. I thought Ryuukishi made them more interesting than I ever thought kids playing board games could be.

>>5641291

Well, at least we won't be Shirou.

>>5641272
>Being concise doesn't mean you gloss over important scenes.
I never claimed otherwise.

>Being concise means that you give one or two sentences to insignificant happenings and go full bore when you're describing or recounting something important.
And again you show an utter lack of understanding of the genre, despite your previous claims to the contrary, as well as enforcing your opinion as fact.

>Sorry to rain on your parade, but wish-fullfillment bullshit is as low is it gets.
Non sequitur. That has nothing to do with anything stated. And you follow up with trolling.

>They were just examples of bad writing in general.
Then their only possible relevance is as evidence that Clannad has good writing, since Clannad does not engage in any such activity.

>>5641272
>Sorry to rain on your parade, but wish-fullfillment bullshit is as low is it gets.

Yeah, while I can see Clannad being classified under "wish-fulfillment bullshit" (even though it's not the best example of that, only the most popular) I really don't think you can put EVERY SINGLE VN under the same umbrella.

I'd hardly consider Ingnanock or Cross+Channel, for example, to be "wish-fulfillment bullshit".

>>5641272
Some of us like that part of F/Sn...and other things. I can't imagine what Tsukihime would be without all the seemingly unecessary text. It would be great, but just not the same.

>>5641343
Who does not want to be a a cripple lonely bitter fuck with family problems that has to help girls out if their issues like a mental band-aid?

>>5641319
So you don't consider brain parasites a flaw? Good for you.

>>5641343
clannad is a fucking slice of life harem, what ELSE would you want it too have/be?

>>5641377

Well, it's better than being a fat fuck with no future who sits naked in his parents' basement, surrounded by figurines and jacking off all day.

>>5641381

"Brain parasites", although present in the original game, is not the real answer to what's going on in Hinamizawa.

Everything to do with the parasites was Takano's psychotic bullshit theory.

Too bad DEEN sucks, right?

>>5641387
>harem

Yeah, you've never played Clannad. Also, you're a troll.

>>5641335
>And again you show an utter lack of understanding of the genre

Have you ever read any romance/drama/slice of life that isn't a VN?
>That has nothing to do with anything stated.

That's because you didn't state anything. You responded to my claim with "NO U," and didn't bother to explain why you think that inconsistent and unrealistic behavior is a mark of good writing.

>Clannad does not engage in any such activity.

Re: In good stories, people behave in a way that's consistent with how real people actually behave. Do any girls in high school act like Nagisa or Fuuko?

>>5641381

But there are no brain parasites....

>>5641421
>>5641425
"Brain parasites" is just a snide nickname for Hinamizawa Syndrome, which is pretty much equally ridiculous.

>>5641422
>In good stories, people behave in a way that's consistent with how real people actually behave

You must be stupid. I mean sure it's nice for some stories but saying "GOOD STORIES MUST CONFORM TO THIS" is pretty damn stupid.

>>5641443
>Hinamizawa Syndrome, which is pretty much equally ridiculous.

How so?

There were clues, foreshadowing, all the plot was built around it.
It's not a deus ex machina at the last minute. And Higurashi is NOT a mystery.

>>5641443

Oh, I agree with that. Even Ryu07 admitted it was bullshit.

>>5641422
>Do any girls in high school act like Nagisa or Fuuko?

No, the majority of real girls in high school are empty-headed sluts.

...No one wants to read a story about empty-headed sluts. They're not compelling or interesting characters.

>>5641464
>And Higurashi is NOT a mystery.

It was clearly meant to be one. Whether it suceeded or not is another story.

>>5641464
>And Higurashi is NOT a mystery.

Incorrect. It's a mystery, but not detective fiction.

The Knox rules are for detective fiction, which Umineko is and Higurashi is not.

The more you know!

>>5641425
I just read ep7 of hiraurashi. I thought the whole "Tokyo" thing was the main reason for it. I don't know what happens in ep8, don't know if you read it in Japanese though.

>>5641486
>It was clearly meant to be one. Whether it suceeded or not is another story.

No, it wasn't.

From the start you are aware of supernatural elements in the story.

>>5641450
Are you frustrated? I was observing a trend, not laying out a law or maxim. Calm down.

...By the way, you haven't explained why you think that characters behaving unrealistically is a quality of good writing and not just escapism. I'm listening, so go ahead.

>>5641498
What? Since when? Ryukishi is clearly pushing the concept of "is it a horror fantasy or is it a mystery? you decide!" - pretty much like a smaller scale version of what we have in Umineko - at least in Onikakushi. They even explicitly discuss it in the wrap party.

>>5641381
I never said it didn't have any flaws. The solution could have been better, but honestly it was more believable than sci-fi resolutions I've seen in other mystery VNs and it was properly provided for. It seems like "brain parasites" is just something parroted by people who only watched the anime, where the final solution wasn't properly foreshadowed or explained.

>>5641511
Before I say more I should mention I'm not the dude you were arguing with previously.

If you lived in a world where people screamed something random every 5 minutes always and that was normal, would a good story require all the characters to do that?

>>5641474
>...No one wants to read a story about empty-headed sluts. They're not compelling or interesting characters.

Incidentally, this is why you'll rarely find an A+ quality novel that's set in high school, though you'll encounter plenty of "young adult" fiction.

>>5641532
Shkannontrice was foreshadowed, too, but I think we can all agree that doesn't make it any less of a bullshit answer.

>>5641549

We don't know yet.
Despite was /jp/ no red text, so it still a theory.

>>5641533
>Using an unrealistic example to argue why realism is bad

I like the way you do things. I'm not even being sarcastic here - when I say that's a twisted argument, I mean that in the best way possible.

>>5641549
Tricking your reader with cheap word play is very different from using sci-fi elements in a mystery.

>>5641578
It's quite fair. In that world it would be escapism to write about people who didn't have that vice, wouldn't it? Your logic is flawed.

It's "under-appreciated" because it appeals to only a certain audience as opposed to other VN's which have a broader appeal. There are also no choices. Other "VN's" tend to go in the direction of using routes and and branching storylines, much like a CYOA. Umineko is a freaking book, plain and simple.

I should go on record of saying that I enjoyed at least the anime versions of Maeda's stuff, but I won't bother reading the VN's because the stories just don't appeal to me. Same with anything Nasu has done, although I absolutely hated F/SN in its anime...but I could chalk that up to DEEN fucking up again.

As for any other VN's, most of them are smut. The ones on the are probably either not smut or well-written smut. Doesn't change my opinion that I won't bother reading any of them because they don't really appeal to me. I'd rather read real books (and I already do.)

My opinion is not law, and I won't judge if you think Umineko is shit. Just don't speak for every person who picks up a VN and think that they will agree with you. Umineko is by no measure "good," but it is also not "shit." It's somewhere in between, falling under "entertaining." You may look back and think that the quality of writing isn't very good, but it manages to keep its audience entertained.

>>5641740
>As for any other VN's, most of them are smut. The ones on the are probably either not smut or well-written smut. Doesn't change my opinion that I won't bother reading any of them because they don't really appeal to me.
Your ignorance is astounding.

once upon a time a bunch of elitist fags on /jp/ who probably can't write for shit got together and bashed japan for having writers who can't write for shit.
>opinions on the internet

>>5641539

Well, it's easy to write and stupid as fuck. Why do you think "young adult" literature is so popular among kids who think they can read?

>>5641498

Just because it has supernatural elements doesn't mean it wasn't a mystery...and besides the whole time-loop thing and Hanyuu, Higurashi was rooted firmly within reality. The disease was a cop-out, but it at least fit within the realm of possibility as there are conditions or pathogens which can mess with someone's head in a way that drives them nuts and eventually kills them. Ever hear of rabies? The point is, there are supernatural elements at play but they really don't affect anything. It's part of the setting, but not a major plot point...hence why they explain every murder involved in the case. Rika's parents were killed for trying to take her away as a test subject. Satoshi was put under so that a cure could be found and he could live...and he's still in a coma. Satoko's parents were killed because she went L5 and killed them herself. The random worker was turned into a guinea pig for Takano's research. And of course, Takano herself faked her own death and killed Tomitake.

>>5641801

Okay, prove me wrong. It seems you're also bashing me because I don't want to read trashy romance catered to a male audience.

Go into Mandarake's section that contains visual novels and doujinshi goods. I doubt you'll find anything that isn't just pornographic material.

>>5641885
I'm not trying to "bash" you, but if you seriously think there isn't a multitude of plot-based VNs and many companies devoted entirely to them then you are ignorant. Sure, the nukige might outnumber them because everyone loves to fap, but you're swearing off the entire medium when there are still hundreds of non-nukige out there.

>>5641533
I'm not the guy you were arguing with, but anyways.

>If you lived in a world where people screamed something random every 5 minutes always and that was normal, would a good story require all the characters to do that?
In our world people go to the toilet a few times a day, yet highly acclaimed novels praised for their realism don't depict the characters doing that quite often. This is because well, we're talking about stories and not EVERYTHING should be depicted, see good writing being concise and shit.

We don't need our characters spouting nonsense or going to the WC, but what should have, on other hand, is realistic depiction of the stuff that is relevant. In a crime novel, this means the detective/police activities and the criminal are written professionally and with knowledge of how things actually happen; in a horror novel, this means the scary parts are written to make the reader cringe and still appear believable; in a drama/romance this means the emotions and actions of the character are depicted in a humanely complex and imperfect manner. Irrelevant parts - such as a crime subplot in a romance novel - will be easier for the reader to accept as less realistic.

See where keyshit etc fail now? If they're supposed to be the characters in a romance/drama/slice of life story, they should be/act realistic in terms of emotion, action and personality to one degree or another. A flawless Mary Sue who never gets angry, never feels indifferent, never takes her feelings out on others, never ever makes a mistake and at all times with no exception is kind and lovely towards the protagonist is hardly a good drama character, because the degree of realism is simply far too low.

>>5641983
Realistic =/= realist.
People in fiction don't have to act as people in real world, fucking idiot, they only have to be consistent in their characterization.
Nothing more, nothing less.

>>5642956
People want to see something of themselves reflected in a character. This is not possible with many Key VNs because their girls aren't even human in any meaningful way. They are bags of quirks in the general shape of teenage girls.

>>5642965
So why is Nagisa pretty much one of the most popular character with women?