/jp/ - Otaku Culture

>>5447057
>>I don't believe in the multi-personality theory, though.
Because you are a retard with no reading comprehension whatsoever.
Why the fuck are you even reading Umineko if you can't make sense of the simplest shit?

>>5447071

Well, all the hints of characters having multiple personalities are fucking red-herrings. Read Higurashi again.

>>5447098
Yeah you are a retard.
OH ALL THE HINTS AND THEMES DEVELOPED SINCE THE FIRST EPISODE ARE RED HERRING AWESOME PLOT WOULD READ AGAIN

>>5447118

You've obviously never read a real mystery novel.

Oh right, /jp/.

>>5447127
A good mystery novel is always consistent.

>>5447136
Good thing Umineko isn't a good mystery then.

>>5447127
Real mystery novels are even worse, introducing the real culprit only in the last chapter. Then readers are like WHAT A TWEEST!

>>5447144
>>introducing the real culprit only in the last chapter

What mystery novels have YOU been reading?

>>5447144
Again, you've never read a real mystery before. The culprit, along with all other characters, are introduced early on. All the hints are there for some purpose or another in terms of the story, but most serve to hide who the real killer is. The culprit does have motive, and the story is solvable, but the hints are usually downplayed or made in passing in order for the twist to be significant.

>>5447144
Real mysteries are usually bad sinc most times the culprit, after being discovered, just starts spilling the reasons he did what he did.

I believe the true culprit (the one with the alternate personality) is completely unrelated to MOST of the murders.

Culprit just has a way to convince EVERYONE ELSE to start murdering people.

>>5447193

Fuck. Stop watching Scooby-Doo.

Who said she was working alone?

>>5447071
Says shkannon fag. Oh, the irony.

>>5447144
Yeah, real mysteries also have the most obvious person as the killer, right?

>>/jp/ - Mystery Novels/General

Hey I have a great idea /jp/

I'm going to write a mystery novel and when the novel is 3/4 over I'm going to make the culprit the most obvious person ever so that every single person can get it.

Except we're going to not resolve the mystery then, and keep all the characters guessing still.

So the whole novel will lose it's hook early, instead of using red herrings and subtle clues to prolong the hook!

Isn't that the best idea ever!?

>>5447071

Isn't it funny how /jp/ says things like this all the time and completely ignores everything else?

I could say the same to people who think Erika is actually a person on the island.

>>5447442
You couldn't actually.

>>5447450

Did you read Chapter 18 of Episode 6?

At all?

>>5447460
I did actually.
Once again, you are a retard with absolutely no reading comprehension.

>>5447486
What about the TIP that explicitly calls her part of the Illusion of the Witch?

Am I a retard for actually reading something and not selectively ignoring parts of it?

for now it's Erika's existence VS Shkanon

>>5447504
You are a retard for forgetting all the meta part of Umineko and the truth about the gameboard.
Just add 2 and 2 for fuck's sake and you will realize how Erika can be in the gameboard without a fucking doubt and still be an illusion.

>>5447530
Kinzo IS on the board and he's dead.

>>5447546
Kinzo doesn't have his presence proven in red on the gameboard.

Maybe Erika=detective
and than Erika's moves are just the detective's moves?

What's that? Episode 1 first twilight?

I'm rereading that part right now, but have yet to make a theory to even how that was done.

>>5447486

And you're a troll, and thus not worth arguing with.

I can move six bodies twenty feet in few minutes.
With extensive strength training, even the fattest of men or oldest of women could do the same, with obvious exceptions.

What's chapter 18 say of episode 6?

I've heard of it before, the mighty proof of shkanon being dumb.

>>5447583
Except Erika's presence is clearly stated in red.

>>5447661

No it isn't. The presence of someone with the name "Erika" is stated in red. (Not, interestingly, "Furudo Erika". Just "Erika".)

Shannon's "real name" is never stated in red. I could be "Erika" for all we know.

>>5447657

It has Erika basically admitting that she's just an illusion, as I recall.

"As the Witch of Truth, I can face the truth about myself."

>>5447704
>>
"As the Witch of Truth, I can face the truth about myself."
That's just about the truth of the gameboard, once again.
Way to miss the whole meta part of episode 6.

And the whole stuff with Shannon is stupid, also:
Didn't exist prior to episode 5
Add 1 to the fucking head count.

You can't fucking go around these.

All this shit agin, bros?

Well, I am personally against Shkanon, because Umineko is 'ingame solvable'(meaning that it was made to be solved fy Battler), but on the same note Ryukushi says, that "This story is not written with an intention for all readers to solve it, actually, it si meant tor ridicule the reader while remaining in the bounds of mystery genre"

The former is doubtful even, because it seems that there were still things she didn't want Battler to find out about. There is no reason for Beato to play wordgames around Kinzo's death or stop giving Battler clues on Kanon's death in E1. Compared to this, Evatrice openly admits that alternative personalites are pretty much legit.

>>5447720
>That's just about the truth of the gameboard, once again. Way to miss the whole meta part of episode 6.

I don't think you've actually read Episode 6.

She SPECIFICALLY says 'the truth about myself'. Not the gameboard, not the meta-stuff, specifcally 'myself' as in 'my identity', 'my person', 'my existence'.

>>5447762
She is part of the truth of the gameboard, fucking idiot.
She is just an actress, a character in a fiction, that's her truth.

And you should explain the whole "Didn't exist prior to episode 5, add 1 to the fucking head count." red text before I take your theory seriously.

At least try.

>>5447755
Evatrice was Beato's agent, though.

>>5447781

I'm not the same person. I don't care about that. I'll let him explain it if he wants.

And no, the full quote says she realized 'Beatrice's trump card' and that's why she thought that way. Not. In. Response. To. Anything. Else.

She was going to accept the truth of herself, because Beato's trump card for the closed room argument was aimed at her.

Why would she 'accept herself as a character in a fiction' when the scene wasn't even ABOUT that?

>>5447720

See, the interesting thing is that whenever they refer to Erika's status as detective, not existing prior to Ep5, or her increasing the person limit (the LIMIT, mind, not the ACTUAL number), they refer to her as "Furudo Erika".

But whenever her actions on the gameboard are mentioned in red, it's always just "Erika".

You can't ignore this.

>>5447816
If Erika is Kanon, well...

I really find it really funny that all of you are claiming that Shkanontrice doesn't exist when you haven't even played Episode 6 yet.

The English Umineko fanbase is a joke

>>5447817
>>the LIMIT, mind, not the ACTUAL number
Fucking bullshit, can you even read?
It's simply x+1, it's the actual number.
That's why I think you are a retard.

>>5447827

Assuming she's the same person across both episodes, she has to be Shannon.

>>5447834
It's just 2-3 vocal idiots.
At least their tears will be delicious come the next episode.

>>5447840
If Erika is 'the detective process', she might as well be personified by him at the time.
And the funniest shit would be her personified by Natsuhi in E5. Pretty much Natsuhi driving herself insane.

>>5447838

Nope.

See, before the end of Ep6, the actual number was never stated. Not once. It was always written as a "no more than" statement.

And in Ep5, the number isn't even referred to at all. Why? Well, at the time people assumed that it was because Bern and Lambda were trying to construct a scenario where Kinzo was still alive, but... the game opens with his death!

What, then, could they be trying to conceal by not specifically mentioning the number?

>>5447057
What if the murderer functions like the 4th Grail War Assassin and is able to give separate bodies to each of his personality despite being a single entity?

>>5447877
whatthefuckamIreading.jpg

>>5447876
Thank for proving again and again how fucking retarded you are.

>>5447876
Elementary mathematic, do you know it?
How old are you? 4chan isn't for the underages you know.

>>5447876
differentfag here

Why? It seems like a good argument to me.

>>5447144
That's a violation of Knox's first law:

"The criminal must be someone mentioned in the early part of the story, but must not be anyone whose thoughts the reader has been allowed to follow."

>>5447834

If Battler's game is all about trying to obfuscate the identity of Beatrice, then why is Shkanon implied so strongly?

>>5447915
The last part is skipped in umineko though, we've followed everyone's thoughts at some given point.

>>5447460
>Did you read Chapter 18 of Episode 6? At all?
Of course not, I don't spoil my stories by reading them in languages I don't properly master, just because other people have read it and are in a hurry to solve the the shit.

I have patience and I will wait until it's translated.

Also, it's people like you who fill the board with needless spoilers, making my work to not spoil myself harder.
I actually remember when /jp/ used to use spoiler tags, and then /a/ tagged along and was all like "What's spoiler tags?"

>>5447876
>>5447912

Add 1 to the headcount.

Headcount isn't know so it's x
Add 1 to x
It's fucking complicated.

>>5447898

You know, insulting me isn't going to win your argument any faster.

>>5447908

Look. If Erika exists, then the final red of Ep6 being a trump card makes no sense. At all.

>>5447944

According to Ep6, "x" is "17".

Erika adds 1. 1 + 17 is 18.

But wait! There are only 17 people on Rokkenjima, even if Erika is 'welcomed'.

Therefore, she doesn't exist.

>>5447933

Hide the thread, then.

>>5447946
>>Look. If Erika exists, then the final red of Ep6 being a trump card makes no sense. At all.
On the contrary.

The trump card being about a plot device used since the first episode and that is at the center of most mysteries in the game vs a plot device that is only used in 2 episodes and set to completely disappear.

Wow, fucking hard to choose.
Fucking idiot.

>>5447982
How does that help you to defeat Erika who, at that point, genuinely searches for the truth?

>>5447972
>>But wait! There are only 17 people on Rokkenjima, even if Erika is 'welcomed'.

No, there is 17 visitors and 16 actual persons on the island.
That's everything about this red text.

>>5447972
>Hide the thread, then.
Sure but that mentality doesn't really justify not using spoiler tags.

>>5447994
Erika was already defeated at that point.

>>5447998
So there's 17 people with Erika and therefore Shannon and Kanon counts as one person by your retarded theory, right?
Never mind that they were counted as TWO people in the 3rd episode: "6 people: Kinzo, Genji, Shannon, Kanon, Gohda, and Kumasawa are dead!" It's that consistency you, retards, always trying to mix in, but count them different ways when ever it's convenient for you.

>>5448020
Yet you are trying to do the same thing with Erika.

>>5447998
Huh? IIRC, their red text in response just said 16 people without specifying anything else. Naturally they would be responding to the same thing she stated, not something different. Hopefully Ryukushi is high-class enough not to rely on a 'word trick' as petty as that one

>>5447982

>>5447998

No, the red text is "even if we welcome you, the number of people is 17".

"Even if" Erika was on the island, the number of people is 17.

Since big, sweeping red texts like this should be universal, there is ALWAYS 17 people.

Thus, Erika doesn't exist and Shannon and Kanon are counted separately regardless of whether or not they're the same person.

>>5447923

Play Episode 6

Then come back

A summary or list of red text doesn't count as understanding the story.

>>5448041
Erika used a counting term, she said she was the 17 visitor.
Beato and Battler clearly said 16 humans, including Erika.
There is no ambiguity.

>>5448065
I mean 18 and 17

>>5448065

You did not play EP6 either

Erika said she is an uninvited guest, the 18th person on Rokkenjima.

Furthermore, what the hell is 18 visitors supposed to mean?

>>5448065

Sigh.

Erika claims that she is the 18th visitor. THE EIGHTEENTH.

Beatrice and Battler then counter with there only being SEVENTEEN people.

At least use the red text wiki before saying things like that.

我こそは来訪者ッ、六軒島の１８人目の人間ッ！！！

そなたを迎えても、
１７人だ。

Even the whole Umineko fanbase in Japan accepted the whole visitors/actual humans difference.

>>5448065

Not "including", but "even if we include".

Very different.

>>5448082

Except no. Not only can you not read Japanese, it's clear as day that you didn't play Episode 6.

>>5448094

And what, you played it via ATLAS?

Goddam arguing with you retards hurt my brain, it's like you try fucking hard to be as stupid as one can be.

>>5448088
It's not, stop trying to create new problem everywhere.
It does not implies EVEN IF WE COUNT YOU, THE NUMBER DOESN'T CHANGE.

the 'even if we include you' comes from the ても part which is only there to respond to her statement and reject her reasoning. You're putting too much focus on that, I think. It's like you're basing that on an English translation and not the Japanese.

>>5448099

In my opinion, playing it with ATLAS is even worse than reading a summary and pretending that you know what happened.

I can read Japanese.

>>5448107

Erika claims, in red, to be the "eighteen visitor".

Beatrice and Battler claim, in red, that even if Erika is welcomed (as a visitor), there are still only 17 people.

The only way to reconcile this is if the visitor does not exist.

Note that this does not deny Shkanon at all, if that's your problem with it.

>>5448116
No, it only implies that there is a big difference between the number of visitors and the actual number of humans.

>>5448116

Wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong you fucking retarded kill yourself

>>5448116

"Eighteenth", my bad.

>>5448108

Very well then. My point still stands: Erika claims to be the eighteenth, and B&B are all 'lolno there's seventeen'.

>>5448125

...How is that any different from what I'm saying?

>>5448132

Please calm the fuck down. You're being rude.

>>5448151
>>...How is that any different from what I'm saying?
There is a big difference.
That is you immediately go for the whole ERIKA DOESN'T EXIST without thinking about any alternatives.

Go read Swan Song rather than discussing these shitty theories already.

>>5448165

Hmm. If there's a difference between "visitors" and "people", I can assume that "visitors =/= people", correct?

So then Erika isn't an actual person, like I've been saying?

What was your reasoning, then?

>>5448186
Not at all.
Erika can be a "people" yet there can still be a difference with "visitor".
After all, the number of visitors has never been discussed before.

And there is a lot of theories.
For example Kinzo could be counted in the number of visitors, after all nothing said that the visitors have to be alive.
Visitor just imply someone who entered the island, nothing else.

>>5448228

Okay, but what's the point?

If that's true then the last two reds are completely pointless.

>>5448228

But what purpose would there being a "visitor count" serve?

Furthermore, how would this explain the last two reds of Ep6 at all?

I think the problem is you're all falling into a simple trap: the web of Ryukishi's deceptive wordplay. In fact it doesn't even have to be "deceptive," and it possibly isn't; all it has to be is verbose and that, we know, it is.

>>5448335
Simple.
For one it clearly states the number of people on the island, one of the biggest mystery of the game.
And it is also be used as a mild mindfuck, perfect as a cliffhanger.

But the clear statement of the number of people on the island was the culmination of the entire fucking episode.
Basically it's like R07 is giving the answer without stating it directly.

Alright, my good Shkanon supporter, riddle me this.

If Erika exists and Shkanon is true, Erika was in the parlour with Shannon and Kanon in Episode 5. Since we don't see it from a first-person perspective, we do not exactly know what she saw. So she could have seen them as one person, or seen them as two.

HOWEVER, no matter what she saw, Erika saw it. It is proclaimed in red during that scene "The number of people on the island is equal to the number of people in this room." So Erika knows if Shannon is Kanon or not. Her viewpoint is objective. This is guaranteed.

But in Episode 6, Erika never even thinks of this during the argument. She even tries to say that Kanon is named George, for god's sake. If she knew that Shannon was Kanon, she would be able to explain the logic error without a hitch.

Explain why she loses, then.

>>5448461
Schrödinger's cat paradox, that's the whole basis of Umineko.

Basically think of it this way:
There are 2 tales being written at the same time, one is pure realistic mystery and the other is a fantasy.
Both tales are linked by a set of rules, one is the fact that a number of "truths" have to be consistent between each tales.
The other is that detective, what you can call the "player character" has to only see the "realistic tale" when he is the POV, the narrator.
Otherwise the gamemaster can show the tale he/she want.

The trap in episode 5 was simple, there was a character who was designed as a detective, a player character.
But the second condition, the POV thing, was never used.
Therefore Erika was stuck in the fantasy tale.
Simple really.

>>5448534
It's sad to see how a physics observation problem has been reduced to 'excuse for ambiguity while sounding cool'

>>5448556

What's worse is what they do to Hempel's Raven.

IT IS SUPPOSED TO POINT OUT THE INHERENT PROBLEMS OF FORMAL LOGIC. IT IS NOT A REBUTTAL.

>>5448534

So you're arguing that because the story is never told from Erika's POV, Erika does not have an objective viewpoint at any time during the story, despite being the detective with the guaranteed objective viewpoint at all times.

>>5448834
The detective is only guaranteed an objective view point when he is the narrator, that's all.
They never implied anything else.

That's why Erika could fucking talk in RED and others.

Was there ever any proof that pointed to Battler being the detective in the first episodes anyway?
The detective thing wasn't even mentioned until Erika came into the picture, and in ep5 Battler wasn't the detective.

>>5448871
Beatrice calls Battler a detective on numerous occasions.

>>5448871
"Until now, you have been the DETECTIVE!"

Dlanor to Battler in Episode 5's ???.

>>5448892
Oh yeah, that's right.
Though he didn't get any of the privileges from being the detective.
Did he even have the limitations put upon the detective?
And how was battler's theory where he put himself as the culprit ever accepted if he couldn't have been the the culprit in the previous episodes.
Isn't it supposed to be one and the same culprit in all the episodes?

See, this is why I just chill with Jessica.

She's either Beatrice, the other Battler, or just a rather nice lesbian out to save everyone's lives.

No DID nonsense, just pure love.

George did the murders to please Shannon/Beatrice.

>>5448930
That has never been stated in Red but assumed. Battler only pulled that off to free Natsuhi anyway.

>>5448931
Sorry to disrupt your Yuri dreams, but maybe Kanon is the actual basis

>>5448859
>>5448534

You're missing the issue.

Erika knows what her piece sees. It's directly put forward that way in Ep6 with her running around murdering people and stuff, despite it not showing that.

So why, if Shkanon is true, does she not know only one of Shannon and Kanon exist?

>>5448951
That'd be HILARIOUS, though.

Although, to be frank, I doubt that heavily. But as things stand, Jessica is a very nice girl.

>>5448954
Because she is only seeing one set of the truth at a time.
And unfortunately for her, what she is seeing is always the fantasy side.
That's all.

>>5448951
"cough" "cough"

Jessica is fruitier than an apple pie.

>>5448982
Or maybe Kanon is.

>>5448982
>anime screencaps
get out of /jp/

>>5448988
I'd propose that since Jessica is expressing interest in Shannon in that scene, it means that she is quite the lesbian.

Unless, of course, you wish to propose that Jessica knows Shannon is Kanon, but then we have much bigger problems to worry about in regards to her.

>>5449001
Maybe you should get out for breaking the 'take it easy' rule.

>>5448973

Not possible. She's the detective and thus has an objective viewpoint, regardless of what we the viewers see.

It's possible for the detective to take part in fantasy scenes because we don't see through their eyes, but the person with an objective viewpoint ALWAYS sees through their own eyes.

To say otherwise is to say that Erika doesn't see like a human does, which would defeat your own argument.

>>5449016
I hate to repeat myself but I already stated it before.
THE DETECTIVE ONLY HAS AN OBJECTIVE VIEW POINT WHEN HE IS THE DETECTIVE, NOTHING MORE, NOTHING LESS.

Is this that difficult to understand?

>>5449035
And I of course meant "WHEN HE IS THE NARRATOR".
Fuck, I'm tired.

>>5448930
>he didn't get any of the privileges from being the detective.
>Did he even have the limitations put upon the detective?
Well Ryu07 clearily hadnät thought of Knox until later.

>>5449003
We have tons of problems to worry about in regards to Jessica. But I approve of considering her a lesbian.

>>5449035

I see what you're getting at, it's just absurd. Because with that, there's no reason to even bring up the concept of the detective having an objective viewpoint--Erika never has an objective viewpoint for the entire time she's there then.

Plus, Erika has to have said viewpoint. For her to be able to state in red "I properly re-killed them," her viewpoint has to be objective. She can't be being lied to. Otherwise, there's the possibility that it's just like when George killed his mom--that didn't really happen. Humans are only permitted the red truth when it's an absolute certainty, and the only one allowed that certainty is the detective.

>>5449042
Beatrice mentions Knox as early as Episode 2.

"Who was it who said that secret passages are forbidden...was it Knox? Or was it Van Dine?"

Mysteries are an interesting genre, aren't they? The only kind of game where you immediately lose as soon as you stop trusting that your opponent is more clever than you are.

>>5449042
>Well Ryu07 clearily hadn't thought of Knox until later.
Beato already mentions him during ep2. Battler was a dettective that barely excercised his rights.

>>5449066
>>Because with that, there's no reason to even bring up the concept of the detective having an objective viewpoint--Erika never has an objective viewpoint for the entire time she's there then.

That's the whole fucking trap of episode 5, the one R07 said was a vicious poison.

And the fact that she doesn't have an objective view point doesn't mean she can't do anything.

>>5449092

She can't say it in red unless it's guaranteed to be true. The game master could have shown her a corpse she thought was alive but really was dead. But she can say "All five of the people I killed... were perfectly alive until the exact moment I killed them." This is an OBSERVATION. It isn't something she did. It's something she sees through her piece's eyes. She can elevate it to red truth. It is objective.

>>5449075
Get the hell out of here, Featherine.

>>5449116
You are making a big deal of the simplest stuffs.

Once again, Schrödinger.
Both tales are "valid", Erika does exist and can act even if it's only in the fantasy version of the story.
What she does in this version is still valid and can still be guaranteed in red, provided it's something that can be consistent with the realistic tale.

You seem to think that only the realistic part of Umineko is valid, it doesn't work that way.

>>5449158
This is not how Schrodinger works...
Oh, fuck it.

>>5449167

It is in the fucking game.
I'm not defending R07 crazy logic and other shits like this, I'm only presenting how things are in the game.

>>5449178
Red text works how it works.

Shit like this is why some of us think Beatrice is a bomb, since she said it in ed.

>>5449178
When it's build on shaky incorrect things, resulting outcomes make little sense, is the point.

>>5449158

You're ignoring half my argument.

Erika can observe that the corpses are alive and state it in red. This is not guaranteed, just because she saw it, unless her viewpoint is objective.

>>5449212
You are the one ignoring my post.
What she is observe is still the truth since both tales are valid.
So of course she can state it in red, people playing dead is something that can be consistent in both tales after all.

>>5449212
Sorcerers don't have to prove shit in the court of illusions.
Erika made Bernkastel say all her red lines.

>>5449276
She said that herself, retard.

>>5449276
Did you even READ EP6?
God, that failed so hard.

>>5449355

What does that have to do with Ep6 at all?

...

Yeah, you're a troll. Go away.

>>5449276
Trolling aside, Erika does indeed say this herself.

>>5449432
True.
But she was already the witch of truth by that point, If I remember correctly.

>>5447929
Has anyone tried solving this way? It would violate the rule on meta-logic so it wouldn't work in game, but out of game... I know we have Battler for almost all of the games, Natsuhi had at least the moment in EP 5, I think we had Kumasawa (about feeling bad for Natsuhi)
>>5447915
I think we haven't seen all of their thoughts, but have heard their voices instead. Someone might say " I saw X in Y", but thats different than , I saw X in Y.