/jp/ - Otaku Culture

Apples to Oranges my friend

>Higurashi
>grounded in reality

They are both mediocre.
Why they have such a big fanbase, I have no idea.

>>4898708

Really? I guess they were just going with a different approach then? Still like Higurashi better.

They both suck ass. Convoluted storyline, shitty art, etc.

>>4898699
Because nothing involving witches actually happened this way.
Metaphors my friend.

I personally prefer Umineko over Higurashi mainly due to the bigger fantasy aspect in Umineko. Not to mention, in my opinion Higurashi tries to hard at times to be deep and what not. Not to mention BRAIN PARASITES DID IT!

>Least Higurashi was some what grounded in reality and didn't have outrageous characters.
>Mr Delicious
>Hanyuu
>Tomitake FLAAAAASH

>>4898728
I know what you are trying to convey, but 'metaphors' is the wrong term/

Umineko is just a metaphor for Atheists not believing in god.

>>4898720
They're both completely different however. The only real similarity is that they both feature a character that is trying to come to a conclusion by repeating a event. Umineko putting a large focus on the fundamentals of the mystery genre while also discussing logic theories and the such.

There is no point in comparing the two.

>>4898734
Play on words then?

I'm thinking of trying Higurashi 'cause I liked Umineko so much but I don't know whether I'd have the patience to read all the VNs of it.

Anime good enough?

>>4898742
>>while also discussing logic theories and the such.
At a kindergarten level.

I was always fond of Higurashi, but preferred Umineko that extra bit more. This was after watching the Higurashi anime when it aired, and after playing the Umineko VNs. I was delighted when I heard the VNs were licensed. However, in recent months the fanbase (mostly on /a/, admittedly) has turned me right off the series. To a point where I refuse to play even Kai. The Umineko fanbase is just as obnoxious, but most of the Higurashi fans I've encountered were anime only fags, with little to no interest in debate. They lazily went, 'HURRR, UMINEKO IS SHIT, HURRR CICADAS > SEACATS XD', and I grew incredibly frustrated. In before are_you_frustrated.png.

I'm not being biased here because of that experience, but I genuinely like Umineko more. I've always found the premise much more fascinating, and their world is far more insular than Higurashi's. The characters are more varied, and more likable in general. In the first four arcs, the only character I truly liked were Shion and Ooishi, compared to almost all of Umineko's cast. Umineko gets more ludicrous as time goes on, but you know what? I like that. I LOVE all the ridiculous magic battles, and how the series is getting more silly as time goes on. I love how grimdark it's getting, and I love the theories which are crafted here (even though it's mostly all doubletrice/shkanon/jessitrice/teatrice/B0MB, it's still fun), and I love discussing it with you all.

>>4898754
The Anime was "LOL KILLER LOLIS! XD"

The VN is slice-of-life out the wazoo but once it gets to the real meat of the story it's supposed to be really interesting.

>>4898758
What else do you expect from Battler?

>>4898742
>There is no point in comparing the two.

Completely agree.

Umineko and Higurashi, from what I've experienced, are very polarizing. You either adore one or the other, although there's a small minority which like both. I don't think I've come across anyone who likes them both equally.

>>4898775
you just did

>>4898759
That's the kind of faggots who populate /jp/ these days.
That's sad.

Umineko really is one of those series which pulls you along with it, as opposed to Higurashi where I never felt a connection as such with the story.

>Higurashi
>Grounded in reality
>Aliens and illogical brain parasites are the culprit

yeah okay then

Higurashi has killer lolis! XD

If you like simplistic stuff OP, you're probably not going to like Umineko.

>>4898797
The exact opposite for me, when many of the scenes portrayed do not even happen and are nit even a specific character's fucked up viewpoint.
Hard to actually connect or care.

They both have an abomination of a fan base,

>On one hand, HIGURASHI BEST ANIME EVER KILLER LOLIS DEFINED INSANITY LOL!!!!!!!!!!

>Anime ruined my favorite VN jesus christ shut up you worthless anime only faggots I am superior to you because I read the VN you are not worthy of calling yourself a Higurashi fan I'm just here to flaunt my superiority over you.

And on the other
>WITCHES MAGIC BEATRICE SO MOE LOL BATTLER SO ANGRY MAGIC EVERYWHERE MYSERY WHAT'S THAT???

>Anime ruined my favorite VN jesus christ shut up you worthless anime only faggots I am superior to you because I read the VN you are not worthy of calling yourself a Umineko fan I'm just here to flaunt my superiority over you.

>>4898816
Umineko is fucking simple in its execution.
R07 loves to repeat everything thousand of times, even an idiot can get everything.
Actually, it's probably the sort of story that make idiots feel intelligent since they feel smart for "getting it".

>>4898821
Whole thing is the majority of those in the Higurashi fan base did watch the anime before the VN. But because Umineko had such a mainstream translation, more of its fanbase has the VN readers rather than anime watchers.

which is probably a good thing. Higurashi's anime was a complete bastardization of the original, but it could do as a standalone anime. Umineko's anime on the other hand cannot, because of the information it cut out. Cutting out scenes from a mystery story means you're leaving out clues as well.

>>4898818
That's probably because your viewpoint was spoiled by all this mystery discussions. For the first reading you'd better accept anything as it seems, and start to doubt anything and anyone in the next readings. At least I did that and liked it.

>>4898850
>such a mainstream translation
What?

One of the things I really enjoy about Umineko is how intricately layered the story is. Every once in a while I get some new piece of the puzzle, and suddenly a layer is stripped away and the whole game board looks completely different.

I did enjoy Higurashi and thought it was interesting, but it wasn't anywhere near as tightly constructed.

>>4898830
Idiots are not interested in anything else than girls and parties

>>4898855
Higurashi didn't have much of a VN translation until it was licensed, but Umineko has been translated by WH fairly quick compared to many other translation teams.

>>4898850
I believe the Higurashi anime covered the first six arcs, didn't it? You see, that's where DEEN made a mistake straight off the bat. When creating an anime based on an ongoing VN which relies on things like the most simple clues, one would be much better off waiting until the series has finished. Making anime out of both Umineko and Higurashi when they weren't even finished was so goddamn ridiculous. They even had an extra arc in the Higurashi anime to cover all vital clues which were left out, didn't they?

>>4898866
...Simply put, one had a PROPER translation, the other did not.
Don't say weird things.

>>4898830
Compared to Higurashi, Umineko isn't very simplistic.

Higurashi's culprit could be guessed by the 2nd question arc. Pretty much nobody can make a fairly grounded theory revolving around one culprit in Umineko on the other hand.

>>4898868
Higurashi did not rely on CLUUUUUES and STATEMENTS THAT ARE TRUUUTH much.
What they butchered was available to them by the time of the adaptation.

>>4898868
Pretty much this, although at least with Umineko, they adapted the first four finished arcs, not that well adapted mind you, but still adapted finished arcs.

Umineko no Naku Koro ni attempts to be an series that depicts a game in which the lives of the Ushiromiya family are in the hands of a wannabe Phoenix Wright and a bratty witch who is more tsundere than terrifying. What starts off as a deliciously dysfunctional family drama (that happens to have gruesome murder and black magic involved) soon turns into a train wreck. What we have here is Survivor: The Scooby Doo Edition.

Umineko no Naku Koro ni sadly is not a great psychological thriller nor is it a series about a great debate. It is about a young man named Battler who sees a blue sky and insists that it is green. For the entire series. It does not matter that everyone else points out the obvious to him. He is wrong and strong and will go down insisting that he is right. Thus this series begins to fall to pieces when you realise it is not a battle of wits, but a battle of patience-- just how long is Beatrice going to put up with Battler's idiocy? Boredom, she claims, is the reason behind any of her actions. Certainly the audience itself must be bored to put up with a series that is clearly insulting their intelligence.

And insult our intelligence it will, unless you are too wrapped up in the gimmicky insanity and cheap distractions of this story's plot. Repeat in red: this is a bad series.

>>4898876
Higurashi's anime made it so fucking obvious that Takano was the mastermind during their third arc. At least the VN adds more mystery to the culprit's identity rather than giving so many obvious statements on who the culprit is.

>>4898886
Oh look, it's this again.

>>4898868
Actually Higurashi WAS finished when DEEN made the anime out of it. First season was in 2006, which had four question arcs and two answer arcs - all of them were done for over a year when it aired.

Umineko on the other hand only has its question arcs completed, but DEEN started producing the anime only after EP 3 was released.

>>4898886
You forgot sourcelink to MAL.

>>4898886
>>4898759
Hey,spammer,sould you just post everything at the same time?

There is an alarming number of people in the online anime community who hail this series as one of the best series in not only the horror/suspense/mystery genre, but in all of anime itself. A brief skim over the list of reviews here on this website will show that most people give it somewhere between 8 and 10, with many closer to 10. For the life of me, I cannot discern where people get these ratings from. Higurashi is one of the most over rated series I've ever watched.

90% of the reason Higurashi is so terrible results directly due to the fact that the series is basically the same premise retold over and over again, a little different each time, in each 4-6 episode arc. It becomes a chore to watch it after you realize it's going to start over and retell a similar story in the second arc. But it goes beyond that, once you realize it's not even the same story. It's an entirely new story that has little to do with what you just watched before it.

Higurashi attempts to be a mystery, yet fails miserably. A mystery requires consistancy, something Higurashi lacks entirely. What happens in each arc is not the same as what happened in the arc before it. Imagine a story that retells itself again and again, each time showing you different perspectives of the same story, letting you in on different key knowledge that you may have lacked in the last arc, that you might come to understand and solve the mystery over time: This is what Higurashi SHOULD have been. But it's not. Each arc tells the story differently, to the degree that you are confused by what has actually happened and what events are relevant to what is currently going on.

>>4898886
>"BUT IT WAS HIS GRANDDAUGHTER! FUCK, POINTLESS RAGE".

>>4898937
I posted the first comment, not the second.

The second is pasta which pops up every so often in an Umineko thread, which originates from a rather ignorant reviewer on MAL.

>>4898951
Good times were had.

>>4898960
Not like he is far off from the given material.

>>4898960
The reviewer was reviewing the anime only, the review isn't ignorant, it's hits the target right on.

>>4898904

No.

The Higurashi anime started airing right after Minagoroshi came out.

It finished before the last arc came out in VN.

>>4898985
Aye, that's certainly true.

>>4898886
Curiously enough, even though the reviewer said she loved Higurashi and that it was structurally complex, I recently saw her posting about how bad it was.

>>4899002
>Higurashi
>structurally complex

Am I in /jp/ or /a/?
Fuck I can't even tell the difference anymore.

Higurashi goes to /a/.

Umineko stays right here.

>>4898989
The last arc of Kai was done before Kai began production however.

And Rei is considered an epilogue to the entire story.

Umineko on the other hand didn't even get to EP 4 before DEEN announced it would produce an anime adaption.

I actually thought that the Higurashi VNs would be more popular than they are now.

I suppose a lot of people just can't be bothered after watching the anime.

Do you guys think The chiru arcs will get animated or not?

Not that I want them to get animated, but if I get to see Erika The Douchebag: The Anime then I'm ok with it

>>4899010
Apparently you are in /v/a/b/adv/lang/int/tg/r/, anything but /jp/.

>>4899036
Yes.

It's possible that there was an agreement done with Ryukishi and DEEN + Frontier Works. That is, they have to produce all of it or none of it.

It might only be announced after EP 7 comes out though, since Ryukishi is probably going to end the series with EP 8 for consistency sake (4 question arcs, 4 core arcs)

>>4899036
Honestly? I think it will.

Even with only a thousand, and less copies selling per DVD.

>>4898699
Higurashi is a series about trolls who are actually friends.

Umineko is a series about friends who are actually trolls.

Geez not only <<<<<<<<<<<<< Higurashi but also <<<< Chaos;HEad, Fate Stay Night, Ever 27, Phantom no Inferno, Tsukihime, Clannad, Saya no Uta, Kanon, Family Project and lot of others

>>4899244
?

>>4899244
What?

>>4899033
>implying the VN scene is not filled with C A N C E R that wants to steal other people works

>>4898797
i fucking love the artist! there is a variant with only family members, right?

But on topic.


I like Umineko more. The mysteries are better (if you guys say they're moronic, come up with a solution to them. C'mon, we're all waiting), though I have NEVER understood why Battler wants to deny Beatrice and Witches and Magic if going around other universes as Watchers IS magic on itself.

But Higurahsi is better executed. Higurashi manga/anime/VN can be downright disturbing, whereas Umineko's are more Sherlock Holmes-esque

>Get on /jp/
>4 Umineko threads on the same page

>>4899960
>Pretending thats anything unusual

At least they arent touhoushit threads.

>>4899966
That would be much better, at least they wouldn't be filled with so much /a/ level faggots like this thread.

>>4899806
That artist is delicious

I agree with what you said about Higurashi, although not really disturbing, more or less just really unnerving at times.

>>4899973
>/a/ level faggots like this thread.

Every thread on /jp/ has f/a/ggots, where have you been?

>>4899973
like /jp/ faggots are an elite.

faggots to rule all over faggots.

Faggotter

>>4900005
Go drink a bowl of cum, fag.

>>4900027
you started it, bitch

>>4899806

What's wrong with outrageous characters?

Higurashi: R07 says "Fuck mistery rules i am a writer"

Umineko: R07 says "Though this is Dragonball Z it follows the mistery rules so who cares what's happening"

Different stuff

>>4899806
Alright I will, even though it's been a while since I last played it and I'm really not a fan of this series.
I usually don't post in the Umineko threads because you guys are completely retarded and annoying but I'll do an exception right now since I'm bored.
I won't go over the closed rooms and all, I'll only do it based on the overall thematic of the game, it's an analysis baically, wall of text incoming.

To solve Umineko, you just have to look at the basis of the story itself.
If you look carefully at the very setup of the story, you'll see the answer in plain sight.

First I have to explain one thing, there is one theme that has been the focus of every episode so far, this is the idea of an "inner world" juxtaposed with the "real world".
The problem is that we don't know where this "inner world" ends.
The most obvious examples of this inner world are all the fantasy characters who appear of course.
This inner world is created to strengthen the one who create it, it's a fantasy, a gentle lie.

Anyways, in episode 1 we have Maria to show this.
Maria who go from one extreme to the other, from a naive and annoying kid to a "witch".
George states it perfectly, Maria takes the image of the witch that exist in her inner world.
Like becoming another person entirely, there's 2 sides of Maria, the witch side is strong willed and truly believe in magic, not even showing sadness after learning the death of her mother, it could be said that she is Maria's ideal.
It's to be noted that she doesn't go back to the normal Uu Uu Maria after Rosa's death.
But she is a kid and it's nothing unusual for someone her age, she is playing a role.

>>4900533
Episode 2 takes it a bit further.
Here we have Shannon and Kanon who can only attain love by using magic.
Unlike Maria, they aren't kids, them believing in something like this is strange in itself.
Then we have a bit more on the theme of "creating an ideal person in your inner world" with the Jessica/Jessie.
Jessie is the ideal of Jessica, a girl who live her life to the fullest.
But like Maria, it's nothing strange for a girl her age, the ideal Jessie and the Jessica who live on the island are perfectly defined as nothing more than a "change of gears" so to speak.
I'll go back to episode 2 later.

In episode 3 we get this a bit further with Eva.
In this episode we catch winds of an inner "witch" who exist within Eva.
This "witch" has the appearance of a normal school girl, young, strong-willed, she knows what she wants.
Like for Maria and Jessie, this young Eva is clearly Eva ideal, the one who doesn't compromise, the one who work toward her goal and is ever young.

>>4900538
In episode 4, we have a bit more on Maria's side and the witch within her.
Unlike Jessica and Eva, her inner world is more expanded to the point where it interfere with her vision of the outer world.
A lonely girl who create friends using magic, but having imaginary friends at her age is nothing unusual.
And in a similar case in the same episode, we have Ange.
Her case is very similar to Maria.
She is very lonely, traumatized by the death of her close family and the lack of love during her childhood.
So her inner world, influenced by the diary of Maria that she reads countless times, began to influence on her vision of the real world.
Such illusions seen so vividly are pretty symptoms of a schizophrenia or something close for someone as old as Ange, but her situation can also explain it.
Anyways, it's in this episode that these illusions are finally categorized, they are a gentle lie, an inner world that can't interfere with the real world no matter what, an inner world that can't really be shared with anyone.

>>4900542
In episode 5, we get this even further with Natsuhi.
Natsuhi sees illusions of events that couldn't take place, events that were created to strengthen her heart.
It's obvious that she, above everyone else takes her place in the Uroshimiya seriously.
But it's also obvious, seeing episode 1 and this episode, that she has a weaker heart than anyone.
But unlike Eva who has gave up on her "ideal form", leaving it to an everlasting young girl and Jessica who take the form of this ideal in school, Natsuhi is constantly trying to live under this ideal she created.
You could say that her ideal has become her true self while her real self has disappeared.
But the weak heart she has, that was hurt by the various events like her innability of having a child for years, the death of the baby who was given to her and the fact that her husband and daughter aren't really up par with the ideal that she desires, this weak heart has to be strengthened in some way.
This is where the illusions of Kinzo and Beatrice come, they both are the masters of Rokkenjima.
Them giving their support to Natsuhi allow her to strengthen her heart.
But unlike Eva and Jessica who completely draw a line between their outer and inner worlds, Natsuhi is closer to Maria and Ange.
It's a gentle lie that she makes to herself but it's also something that she really believes.
Her constant headaches and the fact that she sees things like this could be a sign of something serious going on with her.

Anyways what we have here summarized is the main theme of Umineko.
"Fantasy" is the form of your ideal, magic is the "gentle lie" that allow it to become true.
But it's something personal and that can't be shared, like it is shown in episode 4 and 5 clearly.
Ange is the only one who can see the stakes, Maria is the only one who can see Sakuratou, etc...

But of course you have what happen during the 2 days of Rokkenjima, that's the next level.

>>4900547

Anyways, to go back to episode 2 where you have the stuff really interesting happen.
In this episode, during the flashback, you have 2 other characters who see such illusion.
They are of course Shannon and Kanon.
But their cases is very different.
For one, unlike Ange/Eva/Maria/Natsuhi, they see the same "magic", the same "gentle lie".
It's something that shouldn't happen, it's been clearly established in episode 4 and 5 that these gentles lies can't be shared.
They are something very personal, created as an effort to strenghten one heart, to attain one ideal.

And it's completely logic, it's impossible to share your "inner world" with someone else.
At most they could see something similar, but they could never see the exact same thing.

So why did Shannon and Kanon saw the exact same thing?
If you accept that this scene is relevant and did happen, and you have to accept it given that the "witch" can only interfere with the "world" during the 2 days when the game happen (I'll get back to this later), then there is only 1 answer.
That is, they share the same inner world.
But 2 different people can't share the same inner world.
So what is the logical answer to this problem?
Simply that they are the same person.

Thematically, like I stated before, it works.
Compared to Maria, Jessica, Eva, Ange and Natsuhi this is taken one step further.
For Shannon and Kanon, their inner world is completly juxtaposed with the outer world.
The gentle lie was given a form and flesh.

>>4900549

Yet can one of them be caraterized as an "ideal".
No. Both of them complement each other, Shannon is the dreamy girl who is weary of her life on the island and dreams of a life full of love.
Kanon is the one person who accepted his fate and only live to serve the Uroshimiya and protects Shannon.
The fact that he constantly states that his job is to watch over and protect Shannon is pretty telling, an existence who is there to protect and strengthen you, doesn't this remind you of something else?
Yes, Kanon is a gentle lie who exist to strengthen Shannon's heart, an illusion who managed to take a step within reality.

But there is another problem with them, that is that they both claim that they aren't complete.
Kanon is there to strengthen Shannon's heart but he isn't her ideal.
And there is another problem, for the other characters who saw these illusions, they were nothing more than gentle dreams, they help them no matter what, they "exist" for them.

But Beatrice as seen by Shannon and Kanon is completely different.
She is in direct opposition with Kanon and tries to influence Shannon.
While she claims to help Shannon, she wants to be helped in return.
Compared to the other illusions who exist for their creators, Beatrice has her own agenda.
An illusion who has her own agenda is something that shouldn't happen.
But there is someone like her, that is Kanon.
Kanon also has his own agenda and feelings.
Therefore it could be thought that Beatrice exists at the same level that Kanon.
And if he can come out in the outer world, why couldn't she?

>>4900553

Anyways that is for the first part, it's only an answer based on the overall thematic of the game.
If you follow this idea, understanding why the various episodes are executed this way, why the GM can only acts during the 2 days and what the meta-world really is should be easy to understand.
The whole theme of inner vs outer world is clever but done in a cery clumsy way in Umineko, I personally think R07 bits more than he could chew.

>>4900533
>>4900538
>>4900542
>>4900547
>>4900549
>>4900553
>>4900556
>you guys are completely retarded
>proposes Shkannon

>>4900579
Try to refute even one point I made.

>>4900556
>>4900553
>>4900549
>>4900547
>>4900542
>>4900538
>>4900533
tl;dr

Shkannontrice bullshit again?

>This thread

>>4900598
Yup. Good thing you didn't read it, considering it's a huge wall of text that just proposes the same stupid garbage again.

>>4900639
This "garbage" is the only answer you can find if you follow the overall thematic.
Of course since you guys have the intelligence of slugs, you'll go LALALA I'M NOT HEARING ANYTHING.
Too bad for you it's the answer, anyways don't worry I won't post in any other Umineko threads.
But you'll be forced to face reality come next episode, personally I'm more looking forward to you guys reactions than the game itself.

>>4900705
I thought everyone was in agreement about Shkanontrice?

The things I see being discussed now is just what the hell Rosa, Jessica, and Kyrie are up to.

>>4900739
Rosa's easy enough. She wants money.

For Kyrie and Jessica, their involvement is a bit confusing.(Not the guy who you're asking btw)

I'd say Kyrie is doing it for revenge, and Jessica is doing it for either the lulz(Moon-chan), for Battler's sin(Doubletrice), or perhaps is working under Kyrie for some unknown reason.

>>4900739
You'd think that, but there's people who hate the idea. I suppose having two people be the same person and not have people notice that is fairly contrived, yeah.

>>4900739
Following the analysis I wrote, something like Doubletrice can't happen.
Because of 3 things.
For one these "gentle dreams" are too personal in nature, Doubletrice can't work thematically.

Secondly, Jessica as she was shown in the flashback of episode 2 never act in any weird way, the flashback/flashforward that we saw are completely trustworthy (albeit we see what the character we follow see himself/herself, even their delusion), the witch only holds power during the 2 days after all.

And her characterization in Beatrice "inner world" never place her in any special light.

I know you'll go with THERE IS NO WAY THAT SHE COULDN'T KNOW ABOUT SHANNON AND KANON and all, but whether this is a case of R07's contrived writing, she is innocent or at most manipulated.
Her being any more than that wouldn't be consistent with what we saw so far.

Rosa and Kyrie are completely different though.

>>4900801
The Shkanon thing is only one potential aspect contributing to Jessica's suspiciousness. There's more to it than just that.

>>4900784
More like it goes against every fucking thing Ryuskishi has been trying to set up with his whole "Trust the author" thing.

>>4900801
See, I respectfully disagree with that.

In fact, I am more inclined to believe in Doubletrice rather than the general Moon-chan theory for that very reason. Jessica DOES seem to treat Shannon and Kanon as two different people, despite them being the same. And the argument about her not knowing being ridiculous does hold some merit, no matter how you try to downplay it using the flashback in episode two. All the flashback tells us is that she treats them as two different people.

In the very least, we can conclude that Jessica is delusional in regards to Shannon and Kanon.
But where does this lead? We could take what you've been arguing for, the barebones Shkanontrice theory, and acknowledge that Jessica just never noticed because LOVE.

Both answers really feel lacking. Either we acknowledge that Jessica does know about Shkanontrice and is malicious just because, or that she somehow never noticed that Shannon and Kanon were the same person, which in and of itself is a bit of a blow to her as a character, let alone a human being.

I think Doubletrice solves this problem quite neatly. First off, there's proper foreshadowing for it without even going into the mystery of the episodes proper. From the get go, Beatrice is said to "not represent one person", Beatrice is shown to be more than a single concept or idea. Later on, in that flashback you mention and in episode 3, the idea of personas and alternate identies are presented, and in Jessica's case it's not explictly denied.

Finally, her actions and words throughout episode 4 are blatantly incorrect, but, from the dialogue, she deliberately says what she says.

So we get a paradox of sorts. In fantasy scenes, Jessica is shown as an unambigous good guy. But on the mystery itself, we are given clear examples of her lying and playing for the fantasy faction. And to reiterate, the catch-22 of Jessica knowing/not knowing about Shkanon.

>>4900862
Doubletrice solves for all of these contradictions. Jessica, Kanon, and Shannon are able to interact with each other as they do despite being very close to each other because they're all delusional. "Jessica" can fight against Ronove in one scene and troll Battler in the next, because of her alternate persona, or perhaps alternate function.


Basically, to sum it all up, yes, Jessica being an evil malicious person is out of character. But her not knowing of Shkanon is rather silly as well. Doubletrice reconciles these issues by showing a way how Jessica can acknowledge Shannon and Kanon, and troll people during the mystery, without her characterization during fantasy scenes being shot to hell.


TLDR: Jessica should know about Shkanon, and yet doesn't. She trolls, and yet, based on fantasy scenes, shouldn't. Based on this, I think the answer is a bit more complicated than her just not noticing due to magic.

>>4900862
Thematically episode 6 seems to suggest Meta Beatrice beleives in Shkanon, but what if it's really a different kind of doubletrice? How about Shannontrice and Kanontrice instead of Shkanontrice and Jessitrice?

What's the problem with having Kanon and Shannon being individual people who both disguise as Beatrice? If that were the case many of the things in episode 6 could be easily explained by having Meta Beatrice encompasse the personalities of both Kanon and Shannon as individual people.

It's already been shown that Kanon can escape the location check without name games so I think this is entirely possible.

>>4895268

>>4900769
>Jessica is doing it for either the lulz(Moon-chan)
Culprits who do it for shits and giggles are low tier in a mystery.

It normally just means the author got lazy and couldn't think of why they would kill.

>>4900901
Well, if Shannon and Kanon are two different people, then that paradox I mentioned would still exist to a degree. Basically, the issue of Jessica lying and blatantly being malicious in episode 4 versus her depiction in fantasy scenes.

And with Doubletrice, well, timing and crime scene investigation is critical. Kanon's body never was found at the end of episode 4, Shannon's was. There was no reason for Kanon's body to disappear, but it makes sense that is vanished if it was Shannon's body as well.

>>4900913
I know, I believe in Doubletrice or something akin to it myself, but that is still a possibility.

>>4900924
Some people have suggested that was trolling on Beatrice's part. Kanon's corpse was Kinzo's corpse in that episode.

>>4900928
I suppose. I think there's much more in favor of Shkanon than against it, thought. I'm just trying to make sense of the Jessica, Rosa, and Kyrie related issues myself.

>>4898699
>outrageous characters
>witches and shit
Answered your own question.

>>4899033
People who watched the Higurashi anime and then read the VNs were disappointed that they weren't about killer lolis.

People who read Umineko and then read the Higurashi VNs were disappointed that they weren't about magic fights and middle school level debates.

So yeah, it's a small group that actually likes the Higurashi VNs. It's not the type of story the Western VN fanbase usually goes for (they don't like character/theme driven works).

>>4900590
You state that "because Kanon and Shannon are able to see and interact with the illusion of Beatrice, and illusions are personal thing, they must be the same person", right? By that logic, Natsuhi and Kanon (who is actually Shannon in this scene) are also must be the same person, because they are both able to see and interact with the ghost of Kinzo (personal illusion of Natsuhi) in ep5.

I prefer Higurashi because Shimamiya Eiko.

That's all there is to it.

>>4903350
They don't, look at the scene more carefully.
Only Natsuhi sees him, Kanon is just feeding her delusion, it was fucking obvious.

>>4903377
Yeah, sure.
Kinzo: "Once again, the flowers have grown wonderfully this year. It must be the result of your care."
Kanon: ".........Thank you very much. The weather just happened to be good this year."
Kinzo: "Thanks to your care, the garden is even more beautiful than usual. Good work."
Kanon: "Thank you very much..."

>>4903391
Oops,
"Thanks to your care, the garden is even more beautiful than usual. Good work."
is said by Natsuhi.

>>4903377
Yeah, sure.
Kinzo: "Once again, the flowers have grown wonderfully this year. It must be the result of your care."
Kanon: ".........Thank you very much. The weather just happened to be good this year."
Natsuhi: "Thanks to your care, the garden is even more beautiful than usual. Good work."
Kanon: "Thank you very much..."

>>4903429
Been a while since I last played it but there is an easy, logical explanation to this scene you know.
There is one thing we know for sure about this scene, that is that it didn't happen, it's confirmed in red.
This one scene that Natsuhi created to reinforce her heart, once again it's confirmed in red.
Kinzo would never say something like this.

So if what she saw such delusion and if Kanon was there and saw the same thing, what could it mean?
Simple really, it means that as much as Kinzo, Kanon was a delusion in this scene.

It's the only explanation, it's confirmed that this scene was only a delusion seen by Natsuhi and that it never happened in any way.
The real Kanon therefore couldn't have seen it.

>>4903643
>So if what she saw such delusion and if Kanon was there and saw the same thing, what could it mean?
>Simple really, it means that as much as Kinzo, Kanon was a delusion in this scene.
So if Shannon saw illusion of Beatrice and if Kanon was there and saw the same thing, what could it mean?
Simple really, it means that as much as Beatrice, Kanon was a illusion in this scene.
The real Kanon therefore couldn't have seen it.

>>4904205
Well yeah, that's exactly it.
Kanon is a delusion of Shannon.
Except sometime she goes pretend mode and dress like this delusion.
There is no Kanon.

>>4904281
May be, may be not.
Once you assumed that a delusional person can imagine other characters together with their delusion, your argument about multiple people sharing the same illusion and therefore being the same person is no longer that convincing, because that person could have just imagined any other characters in that scene, while their real counterparts are not there and not actually seeing that illusion.

JUST FUCK ALREADY!

So is there a download for the tips drama CD yet?

>>4904718
It's a question of consistency.
And thematic.
Look at the the whole story as a whole, what R07 is trying to tell you.
Then remember how the characters work, especially Natsuhi.

Maria and Ange are influenced by the whole witch business, so their delusion are very "fantasy" like.
Natsuhi is different, her delusions are different as well.
Her whole deal is about living to the ideal she created for herself, so her creating such scenes are normal.


Anyways, it's logic, you just have to follow the step.
1-Natsuhi meet Kinzo and Kanon
2-It's established that this scene didn't happen in any way except in her imagination IN RED
3-It's also stated that she imagined this scene to reinforce her heart, in red once again.

So why was Kanon there?
Either he is a psychic who can see and interact with the delusion of Natsuhi for some reason or he simply was imagined the same way as Kinzo was imagined.

So, what do you think is the answer?

>>4904765

It probobly would solve a thing or two..

>>4904819
1) Ok, Kanon in this scene was imagined by Natsuhi, while the real Kanon (or Shkannon, if you wish) was in the other place at this time, right?
2) Then in that scene where Kanon and Shannon see and talk to Beatrice, Kanon also could have been imagined by Shannon, while the real Kanon was in the other place.
3) Therefore Kanon and Shannon could still be different people if those scenes are just delusions of Shannon.

Or it could mean that there was a really person saying that she was Beatrice to paly around with both of them. Yes, I'm talking about moon-chan.

>>4904985
Like I stated before, it's a question of consistency.
Look at the way Kanon acts during "Shannon's delusion".
He also talk to Beatrice later while Shannon isn't there.
It's without a doubt the same Beatrice as Shannon saw, they talk about stuffs that was introduced the first time Beatrice appeared in front of them as well.

>>4905037
Moon-chan sure got some awesome power, being able to teleport and summon these golden butterflies.
Not to mention turn invisible and troll Natsuhi, Shannon mentios this as well.

>>4905044
He just noticed that his sister is not in her right mind, so he tried to dissuade her of such delusions. That's a metaphor for him being aggressive towards Beatrice.
Someone DID dress up like Beatrice in the real world, not just in the fantasy scenes. If we assume it was Shannon in Beato mode, then her conversations with Kanon could be explained.

>>4905044

The only thing you have to do to break down your argument is look at ANY OTHER FANTASY SCENE IN THE SERIES.

Episode 4. Everyone sees and responds to Kinzo, Virgilia, Gaap, the goats, etc.

Who's delusion is this that everyone is together and responding to the same thing?

Answer: Magic scenes are not delusions, they ACTUALLY HAPPEN. That's the whole point of the braun tube metaphor, as well as Ep6's little tidbit about there being a Meta-World on the gameboard as well.

Beatrice really showed up to Shannon and Kanon in the Meta-World on the game board. Both saw her, both interacted with her, because she was actually there.

This doesn't mean 'magic exists lololol', it simply means that 'they're delusional' doesn't work.

Natsuhi clearly shows during the course of Episode 5 that she doesn't actually think Kinzo is alive, nor that she actually talks to him. She's the one that comes up with the idea to plan a fake schedule for him, after all.


Simply, you keep spouting 'thematics and consistency, pay attention!' yet you don't even understand how magic scenes work in the slightest.

>>4905550
My point was always about the flashback/flashforward.
Never about the 2 days where the witch has all the power.

These 2 days belong to the witch because everything could happen, the line between fantasy and reality is broken.
Why only these 2 days? Well it's obvious if you think about it but I don't want to go on another shitstorm.

It's not the same thing for the flashbacks, they are completely consistent in what they show.
Magic in Umineko is a "gentle lie" it's been repeated time and time again.
You seriously should pay more attention to what you read.

>>4904819
Since the red text in question didn't actually refer to that scene, your entire argument is baseless. Additionally, in EP4 a large number of people shared a fantasy scene about Kinzo with Natsuhi. According to your logic, all of them were nonexistent too, which is absurd.

It's already been stated in-story that people who agree on a lie can construct a shared illusion. Since Kanon and Natsuhi are co-conspirators regarding Kinzo's death, there's absolutely no problem.

>>4905589
During those 2 days witch has no power at all, because it's implied that all those incidents is a human's doing. Battler even mentions in ep5 that he can't deny witches and magic outside the gameboard, because it's simply impossible due to Devil's Proof.

>>4905666
Once again I'm talking about the flashback.
There is no unreliable narrator in the same way as the 2 days.
What you see is the same thing as the characters themselves saw at that time, delusion included.
There is no trick like "people who agree on a lie can construct a shared illusion"

>>4905684
The witch having power during these 2 days is simple.
Everything can happen during these 2 days because nobody know what really happened, it's a Schrödinger's cat problem basically.
Everything could have happened, even aliens coming and other things like this.
Therefore any story as someone cook up about this island can't be denied.
That's why Meta-Beatrice, or rather the GM, can only affect the island during this period, she only has some power over the fictional side of the event.

>>4905778
Congratulations on failgetting the illusion rules. I can present an illusion outside of the two days which was simultaneously observed by multiple real people: the scene where Maria introduced Sakutaro to Beatrice and Virgilia.

>>4906440
>>Sakutaro
>>to Beatrice and Virgilia.
Are you retarded?

>>4906448
Are you trying to claim that the Beatrice Maria meets every time she comes to the island doesn't correspond to a real person?

>>4906473
More like she is going full game of pretend mode there.
Notice Virgillia, who in the real world should be a fucking old woman.

>>4906480
Yes, she was pretending, and real!Beato and real!Virgilia were pretending right along with her, thereby constructing a subjective truth that was presented to us. It doesn't have anything to do with being inside the two days or not.

>>4906440
Nothing not seen by the detective necessarily happens, or does not necessarily happen in the way presented.

Nothing shown before or after the days of the game are necessarily true.

>>4905778
You say that all flashbacks are necessary truth, but let's look at this.
Kinzo is whining in his study in the presence of Genji outside of 2 days timespan. Ghost of Kinzo is Natsuhi's illusion and there is no Natsuhi in that scene. He should be dead by that time already, because he's dead more than 1 year, according to our most reliable narrator from a flashback. Shanon-George and Jessica-Kanon datings almost certainly took place this year, because:
1) George announced that he's going to give Shannon an engagement ring soon
2) in ep3 Jessica answers to Battler about Shannon-George how long they have serious relationships: "at least a year" (going out for over night date is a serious relationship)
What now? Genji is also seeing things? Genji and Natsuhi are the same person? Natsuhi was hiding there and imagined entire scene?

Also, your theory makes Jessica complete clueless and unobservant retard. Moon-chanfags at least could call her a troll.

bump

It's one of these "I've found the answer, you guys all retards" people?

>>4906663
>Also, your theory makes Jessica complete clueless and unobservant retard.

That's exactly what she is. Jessica never knows what is going on. Never. She is just a teenage idiot trying her hardest to survive in a series on murders. But her hardest is NEVER good enough.

Face it, Jessica is about as clueless as Gohda is.

Sorry walltext guy, but this

>>4905550

pretty much kills your "personal worlds" theory.

Also, it doesn't explain motives.

bump for an answer: >>4906663

Kinzo is actually alive. The corpse Natsuhi saw was actually a troll by him and the servants

>>4911676

I wouldn't put it past him

>>4911676
Would be better than whatever else R07 has up his sleeve (Jessitrice, Shkanon, everyone is culprit except Battler, etc)

bump