/jp/ - Otaku Culture

>>48253130
It is not a simple task. It might be impossible, due to the various reasons, up to and including possibly vacuous reference.
I am not competent enough to tell much on those matters beyond some simple ontological/epistemic perspective. But I want to say that if it is possible to reach Gensokyo, then you will need to work hard to achieve it, most probably. And that means you need to be patient, diligent and alive.

>>48253130
How did Sumireko do it?

>>48253187
I'm willing to do what it takes as long as I can be sure about it. it's hard to stay motivated when there's assurance my efforts will amount to anything and there's the tempting gamble of just dying and hoping my soul is picked up by someone who can help.

>>48253196
If only I knew. I'm sure her powers played a role in it but sadly, I have no such abilities.

>>48253130
Let Flan-chan guide you.

Monitoring this thread. I would take any old isekai world over this one but Gensokyo would be nice too.

>>48253275
If/when I kill myself, I won't be hanging myself. I've tried before, it's very painful and scary! I want to at least thoroughly explore other options for getting to Gensokyo first anyways.

>>48253306
There are many things nice about Gensokyo. The biggest one for me is the people. Even though I've never met them, they've brought me so much comfort through hard times.

>>48253235
>it's hard to stay motivated when there's assurance my efforts will amount to anything
This goes ultimately for all things you can set up as a goal in your life. Why do you try to stand up from your bed? There is no assurance some cosmic, natural law won't prevent you this time around.
It can't be rushed. Have you ever tried befriending a wild animal? Stray cat or birds perhaps? You know there are some drives and intelligence behind an animal, you may know something about how it behaves and what it doesn't like, but you are trying to communicate with something that doesn't understand you the way you think it does. You can't be sure how it actually perceives your actions. But, despite this, befriending an animal is possible. Sometimes it will go faster, if you're lucky; sometimes slower, and there will be even times when the relationship will look like it regresses. The only thing that can help you is persistence and perceptiveness, to not repeat mistakes.
If there are any spiritual entities, they are likely to have a different modality of communication as well. Metaphysical is from definition something "beyond physical". Any forays into it and any relationship with spirits would need time and experience to even begin to understand what something there might mean. You might be sometimes lucky, but you can't and shouldn't count on this.

>>48253130
To add to what >>48253187 said, I'd advise you to keep every possibility in mind, even the most unpleasant ones. Namely the chance that Gensokyo might not be a location you can physically travel to from this world, at least without the direct intervention of a higher being that is most likely unwilling to interfere with the process. Or how the destruction of life (including yours) is almost universally considered a serious offence in spiritualism. If you internalize the latter, you may begin to see your current existence as "training" and an opportunity to build connections for what may come next. I know this isn't the answer you were hoping for, but it's all I've got. Best of luck.

If Gensokyo is a place you can like physicaly enter, it's most likely somewhere in Nagano. ZUN grew up there, and a lot of locations in Gensokyo and much of lore in Touhou draws from places like Hakuba (the town he grew up in), Suwa and the Yatsugatake mountains.

There's a shrine in Hakuba that's thought to possibly be the likely inspiration behind Hakurei Shrine. Some elements of Gensokyo's geography line up with Hakuba, such it as being described as a mountain valley with a river running through it and having three prominent mountain peaks.

Suwa is home to Suwa Grand Shrine, the mythology surrounding it is intensively reference to in Touhou. It's the most prominent shrine in all of Nagano and ZUN would have been very familiar with it.

The "original form" of Yatsugatake mountains (related to a myth about the kami of Mt. Fuji destroying the original mountain in anger) is described as being the same as Gensokyo's Youkai Mountain. What exactly this means, I don't quite know, but it feels a bit pointed that Mt. Tengu is one of the Yatsugatake mountains...

There's also a ton of other stuff related to Nagano in the Touhou games. So if Gensokyo is somewhere, literally, physically, as some kind of a spirit world existing on the flip side of material reality, it's there. Adding further to this is the fact that Nagano is home to several notable magnetic anomalies (most likely from all the mountains), and these seem to be strongly correlated with spirit activity.

The problem is that nothing quite lines up 100% with the geography of Gensokyo and that some of these locations are fairly popular and frequented by people. Hakuba once hosted some games of the Winter Olympics. Suwa is a big city. Yatsugatake mountains are a natural park and Mt. Tengu is a popular day-hike destination. That said, the national parks in the US are popular tourist destinations and people have strange experiences and mysteriously vanish there all the time. Hakuba also seems to be quite out in the boonies by Japanese standards. Who knows what goes outside of the village.

If one was able to locate Gensokyo, I have no idea how to enter there. There's also a high risk that you will just find some local Kitsune/Tengu/Bake-danuki who will be very confused and either straight up eat you or then mercilessly prank you and the Japanese press gets to write about a gajin found in the woods, gone insane, rambling on about youkai...

>>48253130
I'm a hardcore Touhou fan, so many times I would even try to escape reality with lucid dreaming, I would be at Moriya Shrine where I would often train with Suwako in the training center and help Sanae with the Autumn Festival, but one day as I was talking to Sanae , we went to my dormitory for a private talk. She immediately said, "You know you could live with us forever.." I gave her a confused look and she continued, "We understand that you live on earth and you REALLY wish to live here". I then said "How..How did you know?" She then giggled and said "Because we've been watching you, silly!"

This was a dream come true and I almost cried right there. She then said, "I talked with Kanako-sama and she agreed that you would be PERFECT for Gensokyo, you just have to do...one thing". She then held my hand and looked deep into my eyes and said "...You have to kill yourself for the transfer to work correctly." I then gave her some questions, "How long do I have before the deal expires?" She then said "Kanako-sama said 3 months.." I added by saying "What's the most painless way?..." She giggled again, "Suicide will require pain buuut...if you want it quick...Get a gun and a nice shot to the head works.

I then agreed and she gave me a kiss on the forehead, "I know this will be tough but once it's over and done, you'll get to live here!" I then woke up and this was last week and i purchased a gun. I might actually kill myself because that dream just felt too real to be fake and my life isn't doing so grand.

>>48253584
Don't do it anon

>>48253584
Taboo of blood spilling should be a dead giveaway that something is wrong. While there are traces of human sacrifice in Shinto, no miko, one that is also a living kami, would advise you to go out with a gunshot.
Don't do it Anon.

>>48253648
It's ancient pasta >>/jp/thread/3928901

>>48253584
>>48253648
TSUKASA PLAYING TRICKS ON ME AGAIN
I'M KICKING HER OFF A FUCKING CLIFFSIDE THIS IS THE LAST STRAW THIS WAS PERSONAL

>>48253692
NTA but whether it's ancient pasta or not, discouracing suicide is important.

There is a probably schizo anon here who have the ability to enter Gensokyo and other worlds with his dreams depending on the phases of the moon or stars related shit.

>>48253130
Build a small shrine, learn the proper ways of presenting offerings and worship, change your perspective on the spiritual (western spirituality is very different from eastern), and have faith. Even if the fruits aren't immediately apparent it can be comforting which leads into the next point. Physical and mental health issues will hold you back, with both poor meditation quality and—for lack of a better term—the bad vibes you're constantly putting off with negative thoughts and emotions. Your body is a temple, take care of it.
>>48254499
You needed a reason?

>How do I get to Gensokyo?

>>48253130
The only working solution is lucid dreaming.

>>48255327
There's literally the anon who has extremely vivid dreams of Yukari depending on the phase of the Moon.
>>48255372
All very good advice and if you follow this and never end up in Gensokyo you are going to be living a healthier, happier, more connected life so it's just upside.
>>48255491
No.
>>48255681
I don't know about the only solution, but it has very little risk of local spirit wildlife eating you. The groundwork for it (dream journaling) is also pretty low effort, if probably very unsatisfying at first because it takes a while before dream recall starts improving.

>>48253130
You need only one thing.

psyop thread

>>48256841
No.
>>48256852
How so?

It's really not, and just a continuation of the last couple we've had here sans the nameposters like the big 4 anon or eclipse or cherry. Give it time, we'll all start filing in to post.

>>48253130
You have to go into a deep sleep with a smartphone. That is how Sumireko does it in Touhou: Artificial Dreams in Arcadia.
Then you can capture a mindless clone called a sleeper of a well-endowed Touhou character like Yukari and then bone her.

>>48257540
This is the most "Ufufu" Yukari

>>48257540
I can't believe ZUN!! approved that scene...

I've returned from an extensive stay in Japan, much of it was spent in very remote areas and hiking and staying on far off and lonely summits. I like to think this is getting as close as I really can to what Gensokyo would be like, a primordial and distant Japan, a "far away" where things work differently hidden beyond an imperceptible shroud.
Maybe I'll go again soon and just disappear in the mountains.

>>48258093
It's a great scene.
>>48258147
Cleaning up and looking after the abandoned shrines, hokora, and jizou statues dotting the mountains could be something worth doing. Though that's something that needs a lot of research and care to make sure you're doing it correctly, lest you end up disturbing something that had a very good reason to be abandoned.

>>48256841
i know its a meme to create a chemical concoction to kill me but honestly im at that point where i might just anyways. Yukari is in the background and im on a train right now, maybe thats a sign.

>>48258147
>Maybe I'll go again soon and just disappear in the mountains.
That has long been a fantasy of mine. To vanish in a distant mountain off the beaten path somewhere in Tohoku... that would be my Gensokyo.

>>48257540
>You have to go into a deep sleep with a smartphone.
You merely jest, but biology has been slowly, at the margins, reversing the stance that weak electromagnetic fields have no effects on living systems. Who knows what would happen if you would tweak the frequencies your smartphone sends and received and then went to sleep with it haha.
>Then you can capture a mindless clone called a sleeper of a well-endowed Touhou character like Yukari and then bone her.
If you want to bone a 2hu you should just ask your local sex entities to cosplay them for you. Judging by the succubus threads on /x/ there might be downsides to it though.
>>48258147
Honestly that sounds really wonderful and I do understand the urge to just vanish into nature. But maybe you could find something like that where you live, or work towards moving somewhere that is closer to that.
>>48258214
I think the biggest risk with abandoned shrines is that the residents are upset from lack of care and attention, not that they got abandoned for some particular reason. That or mistreating them somehow, so your point about care stands.
>>48258439
Don't do it anon...
>>48259253
Do you want to vanish or be closer to nature or what is it?

>>48259447
don’t worry it sounds too painful for me to probably do it
if i ever gensokyo myself itll be in a quick and painless way like a shotgun or something

>>48259678
I really don't think doing that will send you to Gensokyo either...

>>48259447
Vanish off into nature lol. Why, I don't know. Maybe the freedom? To be honest, this has been a wish of mine for long, but the biggest call was when I was watching a 5 hour long Noh play, and the desire to do it at some point sprang completely unrelated with absolute certainty. It totally felt like I was being told, rather than choosing it myself.

>>48264069
>Maybe the freedom?
It could very well be part of it.

That's a curious experience you had for sure. Noh is rather ritualistic, isn't it though? Maybe you were being told, haha.

As for me, I guess it's more about wanting to find a place where I could connect with the outside world without having to have to hold up so many filters and barriers.

Cities are meat grinders, they draw in people with hopes and dreams, crush them and turn them into a paste. The energies are really rancid. If you were to "open up" you would invite every drunkard, junkie and beggar to hassle with you. Being receptive to everyone's misfortune and suffering would be unbearable, make me sick, kill me. Even those who aren't that misfortunate are often so unhappy. So many people who are incredibly stressed out and resentful that things did not turn out as they dreamed.

There's good, well-adjusted people too of course, but there's more than people to consider too. There's all the noise, the pollution, congestion, diseases, artificial light and if you want to be schizo about it, overall negative energies and thousands and thousands of random sources of unsolicted EM radiation around.

The place where I live isn't the most hellish urban area either, there's like parks and the sea and such, but sometimes it's all a bit too much for me as of lately.

I don't really want to romanticize some kind of premodern rural life or running off into the woods, but I do miss the smaller city where I lived as a child, that had actual forests that were easy to access. I really feel if I could go to a proper natural setting for once I wouldn't have to be so...defensive all the time. Or at least the defences would be something that comes to all living things naturally and is thus less exhausting.

Maybe there's something that feels familiar in this hideous blogpost. Hopefully it helps others who feel like they just want to run into the woods contextualize how they feel.

One can of course see how Gensokyo (as much as you would have to keep up your defences against the youkai haha) and the more rural, nature-oriented aspects of Japanese culture would be appealing to people who feel something like this.

>>48253130
Theoretically, there are infinitely many Gensokyos within infinitely many pseudoexistent paradigms that can organize and interpret the Monad. It likely doesn't "exist" to us (for existence is a quality relative to the subject), but that is only insofar as it is inaccessible. Best you can do is accumulate good karma and hope for the best once you die (not by your own hands please!)

I think this thread would be more productive (if a bit off-topic) if you shared what is clearly bothering you. In lieu of that information, I can only recommend that you take steps to better your life. You could likely benefit from better sleeping habits, better eating habits, exercise, and abstinence from drugs, alcohol, and masturbation. I wish you the best of luck, and will be praying for you tonight.

>>48253130
Touch meds. Take grass. Or take a bunch of window pane lsd and microdots of mescaline while playing the games. That should do it. Don't do this if you have never taken drugs before as you will most likely end up tied down to a hospital bed.

>>48265276
"existence is a quality relative to the subject"
Retard...

>>48265276
While there are plenty of things that weigh me down, my desire to reach Gensokyo is mostly one of detatchment to my current life. I don’t form strong connections with people often, and the people I do resonate with all wish to/believe they will go to Gensokyo when they die. When it comes to the inhabitants, my attachment to them is stronger than anyone I’ve met, or anything I possess. Somewhat more recently this grew stronger as I’ve started experiencing parental instincts towards some of them. For those who I don’t feel such a way towards as the opposite as I feel I have much that I could be mentored on. I think being closer to nature, while not completely disconnecting from civilization is also a big one for me. Truly, I have no purpose or attachments to this world and so Gensokyo is less of an “afterlife” for me but instead rebirth into a world where my life can have meaning.

>>48265800
>I think being closer to nature, ... is also a big one for me.
Since you have time before you die (and go to Gensokyo), perhaps consider taking up hiking, gardening, or some other nature related activity. I understand not having any attachments to this world, but surely it doesn't have to be entirely suffering while you're here.

>>48265848
I know it sounds contradictory, but I am extremely anxious about going outside. Real people scare me, I can tell that I always make a bad first impression. Not to mention how just tired I always am. I never sleep well, and that combined with how exhausting it is to spend my day in an aimless slave-trance makes me dread spending my free time doing anything physical.

>>48259253
I regret not spending more time in tohoku this time. It's such a nice place with the most affectionate people I've seen in the world and it's also an affordable place to be.

>>48265899
The real people you encounter in life are not going have any impression of you or remember you for over 15 minutes unless you do something like start screaming and shitting everywhere or attacking them stabbing them or whatever the fuck.

>>48258093
Here's what else got approved involving Kanako.

>>48253130
Gensokyo is a fictional location made up by some drunk jap teenager. you cant go there because it doesn't exist

>>48265927
Allow me to qualify this: Unless you are in High School or Junior High or whatever. I was a kid once and yeah we could sure be dicks. Most everybody fucks with everybody in school. Nature rule anon-san, not mine. But all that shit fades pretty quickly.

When the magnetic pole weakens,
When the super volcanos erupt,
When the planet shudders and tilts,
When the oceans spill onto the land,
The Gateway to Gensokyo shall open.

>>48266140
I want Kanako-sama to breastfeed me.

>>48266140
Incredible, look at the size of Kanako's dish!
In all seriousness, I'm amazed at how quickly this sort of thread cropped up again. This feels really early relative to the last one for this sort of thing.

>>48266744
Crazy how the people on the Touhou containment board want to go to the Touhou world.

>>48266848
I wouldn't be surprised if some dumbfuck actually roped himself and left behind a 2hu cum tribute, and a note saying how /jp/ told him this was the only way he could go to Gensokyo

I want to marry a cute and shy kappa girl with glasses for a wife and start an engineering firm with her, eventually owning a plot of land on which we could build a big house and have many children together.

>>48268686
Nice try kappa, but you're not getting my shirikodama

Credit clear every single one of the games on lunatic, fighting ones not included excepting the 7.5, 10.5 & 12.3 trio, then you'll understand how.
Pretty straightforward really.

>>48265899
>I never sleep well
Honestly this might be the one big single issue you have. Everything else could flow downstream from this - anxiety about people, being exhauted during day, not having the energy for physical activity, feeling disconnected. If you can identify and fix what it is that is making your sleep quality shit, things will improve a lot.
>>48266623
Interesting. I'm always suspicious of these doomer narratives though, but some of them are poeticaly true while literally wrong. The timewave zero maya apocalypse 2012 thing was a prime example of this.
>>48266631
You would have to be reborn as her child for that to happen, yes?
>>48266744
These type of posts just keep on happening.
>>48268734
Stay strong anon, your root chakra belongs to you and only you!
>>48268822
>fighting ones not included excepting the 7.5, 10.5 & 12.3 trio
Why exclude those?

>>48269597
>You would have to be reborn as her child for that to happen, yes?
Deal! When do I start?

>>48269597
I know exactly what keeps me up at night and it’s simply my desire to be in Gensokyo; to live the life I spend every other moment dreaming of. I get caught up in elaborate fantasies both during the day and while trying to sleep. Sometimes I have to wonder that if every person has a purpose, wouldn’t mine be to live my dream? Why else would I be born with nothing else I care about?

>>48269697
I have no idea actually. You could try devoutly and sincerely praying to Kanako-sama. Respectfully ask to become her child. Live in a manner that embodies honesty, sincerity, dedicated work and apreciation towards all that makes our lives possible. That's your best shot.
>>48270394
I see. So, hypotheticaly speaking, if there was a way to Gensokyo that would require you to live and work on yourself in the outside world for 10 years, would it be worth it? 20 years? 30?

How badly do you really want to go there, and how much do you believe it's real? Would it be still worth it if you had to spend less time daydreaming about it and more time working towards it?

What if it was certain that death couldn't take you to Gensokyo? What if there really were no shortcuts? Would you still dream of going there?

>>48270634
I’d spend my entire life if even if all it would earn was Rumia disemboweling me. If I could go to Gensokyo it wouldn’t just be something to look forward to, it would be hope, something which is entirely lacking from my life.
When it comes to how real I believe it is, I’m wholly unsure. On one hand, I’ve had some experiences during pray but at the same time it’s possible still that I’m just a desperate schizo.
And it would be disappointing to learn the the easy way out isn’t an option, and having a real fear of dying outside of the physical pain involved in the process would likely leave me paranoid, but I would want to endure as best as I could.
Alas, knowing my luck, it’s safest to assume that it’s not the former and that I’m just fucking insane. If Gensokyo isn’t real/a place I can go to then my time is best spent on autopilot, continuing to dream.

>>48270705
>If Gensokyo isn’t real/a place I can go to
How much effort are you willing to put into figuring out that?

For what's it worth, I very much believe the various entities we associate with Gensokyo are real. I'm much less sure about Gensokyo being a literal place with literal anime girls.

Your prayers are, in my opinion, likely being heard, but you are of course asking much. If Gensokyo is a real place, it's somewhere in Nagano, and you would need to have to skillset to find it, enter it and survive it. And don't give me that getting eating by Rumia stuff, you can do much better.

But it's going to take a lot of effort. Learning Japanese, truly understanding the myths and inspirations behind Touhou and what they can teach to us, putting that into practice, finding the means to go to Japan, spending all that time looking for it...

I don't believe - my research has led me to conclude - that human souls survive death intact by default. That's why I think that way to Gensokyo won't work. They probably don't need any more ghosts there either. Some believe you can however cultivate a soul that can survive death intact. It's years of hard work. I have not done it. I don't know if it works, so committing to such would be entirely a matter of faith.

So whether you want to go looking for a literal spirit world or you want to survive death, it's a lot of work. That said, you said you want to be mentored by them. You could ask them to mentor you here and now. They can help with the things needed, but it's still a long road and a lot of hard work.

There is of course always the risk that I am a schizo on the internet talking shit. But even if I were delusional and one day realized it, would I regret the effort I have put into researching the lore behind Touhou and how deep it goes? No. The things I have studied have opened up entire new ways to view the world, new reasons to live, new ways to take care of myself. Even if it was a delusion, I would have opened new paths to take, lived life truly according to my beliefs.

You obviously have intense desire to go to Gensokyo, much more than I have. You sound pretty depressed, and I think it's partly because that drive is not going anywhere, not getting channeled into activity so it's consuming you in this kind of negative way.

It's OK to daydream sometimes, but you need to dedicate your nights to sleep. If you could do just that you would find you have much more energy in the day and a less negative outlook on things. You could then spend some of that energy on then figuring out for yourself if Gensokyo is real or not. Then your choice of whether you want to look for it, keep on dreaming or maybe find a new dream would be an informed one. I believe you can do this, anon, and I hope you can find that much faith in yourself too.

>>48253584
Sanae > Selphie

>>48270855
You are in fact a schizo on the internet talking shit.
>>48269597
You too. Especially you.

>>48272289
Were you surprised? This is a thread about going to a fictional world after all.

>>48272289
I know my beliefs are unusual compared to the majority of population, but to me they are well-informed and constructive. People can live satisfying lives with all kinds of beliefs, and people can live miserable lives with all kinds of beliefs. Belief in the reality of Gensokyo and it's inhabitants does not have to manifest in a harmful way.

You can't die for Gensokyo, but you can live for Gensokyo. And as long as there is life, there can be movement and growth. And as long as there are those you can learn, adapt, improve and heal.

The point is that "going to Gensokyo" cannot be some suicidal fantasy, it has to be a goal you strive for. If it's possible to go into Gensokyo, whatever that means, it's possible only through great, transformative effort. Fortunately, that effort which ultimately boils down to changing your perspective, changing the way you act, and fixing your mental and physical issues is something that is not wasted, no matter what.

Even if you came to the conclusion that Gensokyo is not real or found some other reason to live for, any genuine effort put into those things will serve whatever it is you would decide to do instead.

This really goes for all beliefs. You can be a member of nearly every religion or political ideology in a constructive, outward looking, growth oriented way, or you can be part of them in a destructive, inwards curling, death oriented way. The first one is the superior way, because extremely few people really, truly want to die.

OP is obviously miserable right now, but I don't believe he is doomed to be so. Since his desire to go to Gensokyo is his greatest drive, he needs to utilize it to get out of the hole he is in. And when he does so - who knows? Maybe he will be the one to really prove Gensokyo is real and he will go there. Maybe he will find something else he wants to do in a year or two. Even if he ends up living a life that you or some others would find ridiculous, it's better than dying for those exact same reasons.

>>48257061
just a vibe i get from these threads

>>48277204
glowies dont bother with niche boards like jaypee.

>>48253130
when Elon puts a neuralink in your brain you can download Genoskyo onto it, Put on your VR headset and you're in. Easy. You also might die shortly afterwards due to brain liquefaction, but that's your problem.

>>48277627
Why doesn't somebody make a VR Touhou sex game right now? It'd make a fucking killing I tell ya

>>48277204
So what's the psyop?

>>48281745
A glowanon will soon tell OP that in order to reach Gensokyo he needs to commit a mass shooting with an AR-15

>>48282165
That's definitively not a way to get into Gensokyo.

>>48281745
dunno just a feeling

Shameless bump.

>>48289784
It was worth it, the Esteemed Oracle seems to think that the existence of this thread will lead us to Gensokyo.

>Supreme success
>This course leads to marriage

>>48290133
>Ts'ui / Gathering
Hmm, how interesting~

>>48290133
Here's hoping.

>>48290322
Isn't it?

Also, sorry for those that reached out and I haven't gotten back to you yet. I've had some medical stuff that put me down for a while but I'm back. Will follow up later today for all that C and B4 messaged.

>>48290322
Yeah, not only is it featured on Yukari-sama's tabard, consider also that in this particular reading it got transformed into Lake over Mountain. I don't think I need to remind anyone that Moriya Shrine sits next to a mountain lake. It was in fact transfered there, so you could say that it was...transformed from something to another. So those two hexagrams are clearly as Touhou-adjanced as it gets.

That was a total shitpost of a reading, but it is remarkably consistent with the circumstances. A thread is a "convergence" of sorts, maybe even a "tribal convergence". However, there is hardly a concensus on matters here and some of the anons are clearly suffering, one could even say "sighing in sadness". Yet that can be transformed by circumstances into "joyous Lake" being "cradled by the tranquil Mountain" and "supreme success". The rest, including that "marriage", is for other anons to make their own conclusions of.

Benebell Wen's translation & commentary further states that hexagram 45 will result in good outcomes if the group is able to align their will with the "will of Heaven". That particular changing line specificaly refers to potential personality issues causing obstructions, as well as clinging to past. Hexagram 31 is strongly associated with romantic love and encourages generosity.

Make what you will of that.

>>48290133
what is this and is it something that i can help with

>>48253130
you just need resolve, volition, and commitment
of course 99.999% of /jp/ies will fail on the third one

>>48290451
>I've had some medical stuff that put me down for a while
Very sorry to hear that! Hopefully you have a speedy recovery.
>>48290545
>what is this
It's a randomized digital I Ching reading from here https://www.ichingonline.net/.. To greatly oversimplify, an ancient Chinese divination method that produces little narratives.
>is it something that i can help with
You are part of this Gathering now, aren't you? So yes.
>>48290586
It's fortunate then that commitment is a skill that can be learned.

>>48256779
Sometimes it is Maribel, or it is just Yukari really messing with me. I never know with her. Damned youkais can be trusted as much than the bloody cat on the box to be alive.
>>48253130
I might have some insight for your quest to enter the realm of fantasy and the forgotten, but you'll require your mind to be sharp and your body to be ready.
First of all ; Get as far as possible form dense human population areas, get closer form nature.
Second; Do not pray the Gods to do anything you should be doing, they don't do parenting and you shall do on your own.
Third; Be open minded to the strangeness and unknown, do not be afraid, don't reject it. The universe do not have the obligation to make sense to us.
Fourth; Do some exercice, body and mind are like the two edges of a sword, keep them sharp. Stimulate your intellect and mind with books or use the internet to dig though the mines of knowledge.
Fifth; Believe only in yourself to get things done, no prayers to gods, no help to one for this, only yourself. So you gotta get stronger.
Sixth; Do not fear the judgement of others, but be discreet about that. It is very easy to be labeled as mentally ill then being annoyed or worse by the rest of "good people".
Seventh; Stick to your common sense and at the same time discard it.
Eighth; Be weary of this path you want to take, aspiring traveler. Hell loves to dress as Heaven.
That's all for me, I'll bid you farewell.

I'm not some schizo who thinks that Gensokyo is real without a doubt, but sometimes I find myself questioning the nature of our reality and how that could be connected to the potential existence of supposedly fictional worlds. When I visualize something, the picture isn't completely clear everywhere, but when I try to focus on specific details in the picture it starts to smooth out and take a definite shape. In other words, the nature of a specific object in my mind is undecided until observed, not entirely unlike how an electron doesn't have a definite position around an atom but rather a probability of being at any given location, or how photons behave as particles rather than as waves when observed.

It makes me think, what if our 'reality' is just some small part of some grand entity's mind, and what we think is real exists purely in said entity's imagination? Is what we call 'god' really just an unimaginably intelligent being capable of creating consciousness inside of himself purely by thinking about nonexistent entities? Is our reality entirely hypothetical?

Now to bring this back down to our scale, if we assume that the previous hypothesis is correct, perhaps we have the same ability as this hypothetical entity that merely needs to imagine us to make us exist? Perhaps Gensokyo does exist in some capacity, and everyone who imagines Gensokyo is creating a new reality unique to their mind. One must admit, such a reality would have to be considered just as valid as ours. Otherwise, our own reality would be pitiful and inconsequential compared to the world of the one who spawned us.

In conclusion, I'm not some schizo who believes in Gensokyo, but I'm not about to rule anything out. I guess I'm the skeptical yet open-minded kind of schizo.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZKAgei2t5k
Anon, you sound really depressed. Our present reality is heavily molded by our mind and our senses. Much of it is illusory. And this is where hope is found, as by changing our mind, we can change the way we fundamentally experience things. Why chase over Gensokyo specifically? Do you feel a true connection to the deities or do you simply want to escape from an illusion to another? I think your daydreams and longings are a way for your brain to compensate and adapt to its current suffering. I have a similar thing.
Please use your drive and connection to Gensokyo for good, and things will get better. Be pragmatic and use any outlet for hope, and at the same time reject your daydreams as they are a coping mechanism of what your brain feels that it needs and don't take them at face value.
The kami of Gensokyo might even help you to start to build something better for yourself.
Also, please see a doctor over the sleep thing.
May all beings be free of suffering.

>>48293641
>the potential existence of supposedly fictional worlds
Do consider that Gensokyo has incredible amounts lore tied to very real history that is tied to very real locations and a lot of that is in a quite specific geographic area. There's history it. Power. Oomph. That's what separates it from a lot of other fictional worlds.
>when I try to focus on specific details in the picture it starts to smooth out and take a definite shape
You know, you can do this in the physical world too. You already do it all the time, unknowingly. The world is full of all kind of clutter that our brain just filters out untill we focus on it. That doesn't even account for how internal processes are pushed aside to make space for visual perception...
>It makes me think, what if our 'reality' is just some small part of some grand entity's mind
This type of thinking in some form or another is thousands of years old. Hindus have the Brahman, in Buddhism there is the cosmic Buddha Vairocana, Gnostics had the Monad...
>Perhaps Gensokyo does exist in some capacity, and everyone who imagines Gensokyo is creating a new reality unique to their mind
It could be. Or then consider the following: at least tens of thousands of people have imagined Gensokyo, some even peeking behind the lore and imagining that it could be somewhere out there in Nagano. How much attention and energy has been fixed upon this single valley domed under a magic barrier?

Now keep in mind that it has history, myths, legends, hopes, dreams, faith of millions behind the things that inspired it. How many people have prayed at Suwa Grand Shrine over it's 1300+ years of existence? How many have believed in Mahayana Buddhism's message that all beings, including youkai, have the potential to reach Buddhahood? How many remember the name and legend of Prince Shotoku?

This view of course presumes only human agency in shaping how these places, people and beliefs come to be viewed. I myself believe, or rather know, schizo or not, that we share this world with non-human inteligences which might get called "gods" and "spirits" and such. There is a reason why Suwa Grand Shrine is where it is and why it has been there for 1300 years. There is a reason why Buddhism is a world religion. And there is a reason why Taoism widely influenced all of East Asian culture.

To me, some kind of Gensokyo exists. The best I can describe it that is is like a tip of an iceberg, or maybe a mushroom pushing out of ground. It's the newest, most visible manifestation of this ancient, vast, conflux of places, people, spirits, gods, legends, myths, history, nature, artifice, sites of power, faith, hopes and dreams. There are many forms it could have taken, but by finding a receptive "high priest of the Hakurei Shrine" with his particular style and understanding and then finding a wide audience it has taken the form it has taken. Real spirits, even what we could call gods live there. Not like how we live in a city or a house, but "living" is the closest descriptor for it. They might be ancient, they might be the children of something ancient, they might be emanations of something greater or their taxonomy might defy human understanding, but they are there. I don't quite know if you can or should go there, a realm of spirits and gods demands respect. What I do know is that they can come to you if you are open to them, if you can suspend your common sense for long enough for that to happen.

I also can't fully discount that there is a literal magical valley somewhere in Nagano either. If ideas about consciousness being non-local hold water, one wouldn't perhaps even need to go to Nagano to somehow enter it. If consciousness was non-local that would of course bring a whole layer to everything else discussed so far.

>>48293641
>what if our 'reality' is just some small part of some grand entity's mind, and what we think is real exists purely in said entity's imagination?
I am in awe at the good Bishop Berkeley being a /jp/sy!

>>48290736
Like a old woman, the more she mess with you, the more she like you. But hey, the young miss also seem to took a liking of ya. Nice stories in the pastebin by the way.
>>48293641
>>48295693
Sirs, please go easy on my old brain or give me some alcohol.

>>48293641
>In other words, the nature of a specific object in my mind is undecided until observed
While some objects might seem like that, there are others that don't follow such way, for instance Euclidean geometry. You can easily contain in your mind all the axioms of it, from which necessarily all possibly provable theorems in it are already accessible, including those nobody yet knows about. The problem is not in some indeterminism, causing future theorems to not have any form before being deduced, but in computational limits of one's mind. Still, you can, by thinking inside those formal systems, reach those theorems. The essence of those ideal objects already decided about all the details and instead of creating those details, you merely discover them.
Likewise, it's possible, that to even think about any kind of object, you need to first grasp its essential characteristics. Then, by interacting intellectually or otherwise, you discover all things that those essences entail. You may stumble, you might make a mistake, but there is still only one 'proper' elaboration of a concept, instead of the concept's true form being adjusted as you interact with it.
I am not really tied to any of those possibilities, but keep in mind the idea that your mental concepts might stem from external, objective grounding, as it will return later on.
>It makes me think, what if our 'reality' is just some small part of some grand entity's mind, and what we think is real exists purely in said entity's imagination?
Then what we think is as much true as any other part of that entity's imagination, including whatever device you've used to post that and all natural laws that are harnessed during your browsing of /jp/.
> Is what we call 'god' really just an unimaginably intelligent being capable of creating consciousness inside of himself purely by thinking about nonexistent entities?
You really need to define consciousness in this context, because that term is malleable even in professional philosophy of mind or psychology. Did you mean a combination of intelligence and free will? The ability to self-reflect on internal cognitive operations? Something entirely else?
>Is our reality entirely hypothetical?
It might be. We would be then simply as hypothetical and I am not sure what it would change. While the ontological part would be necessarily different, our qualitative experience of our reality wouldn't change, because even our thoughts about any non-hypothetical beings would be still hypothetical. There is no possible way to ever escape the hypothetics for us and we might as well simply treat it as true, epistemically.
>if we assume that the previous hypothesis is correct
>perhaps we have the same ability as this hypothetical entity that merely needs to imagine us to make us exist?
How does it follow? We could have such an ability, but there is nothing about having higher being 'simulating' us into existence that forces to give us such an ability. We could also have such an ability even if we were 'true' beings. Furthermore, the idea that both the simulating being and simulated beings would have such an ability, opens doors to infinite chains and loops, because what bars those characters we conceive from having such an ability as well? Is the being above us not simply a product of yet another order of simulation? Not to delve into a problem of what we would create if we were to simulate the being above us, as such loops are even messier. At this point, when everyone simulates possibly infinite amount of realities, as those above us, simulating us, would need to simulate all below us as well, it starts to look straight up silly. Are you constantly making infinite amount of calculations for all your creations of mind and their creations, and so on? Moreover, the labels of 'real' and 'hypothetical' start to lose their meaning when everyone is someone's simulation.
>everyone who imagines Gensokyo is creating a new reality unique to their mind
Remember the external grounding of your own, mental concepts? It is important for the communication between different human beings, like me and (probably) you. What you communicate is some realisation and externalisation of your mental concepts and processes. However, if all your concepts were wholly unique due to your imagination shaping them, then we couldn't hold coherent talk between ourselves. If 'Gensokyo' means whatever you conceive it to be and everyone has once's independent own, then we can never talk about Gensokyo at all. If only for the reason that your Gensokyo could be non-existent, as nobody except you can access it to verify this. And what's worse, all language symbols, vocal, visual, otherwise, would ultimately fall under the same problem. The working language requires that its users share some notions regarding its objects. There are many explanations of such sharing: social, biological, metaphysical, and so on; all of them require
intersubjective access at the very least.

I know that the post above seems like trashing probably, and it is to some extend intended as such. It is also quite naive in some places, on purpose, due to the fact that characters limit exists. I wasn't able to tackle everything I wanted and it would not help much, I am afraid.
The true goal of that wall of text above was to show that the philosophical discussion is ultimately pointless here. We can talk however long we want, smarter people then us did, we all will make some naive mistake here or there and not much will be gained.
This subject is a matter of faith. Of taking a plunge. Because if your favorite 2hu walks into your room right now, you being
>skeptical yet open-minded kind of schizo
will give you no actual tool to decide whether she (or Rinnosuke) is really there, or are you simply hallucinating. And this is the actually important part.

>>48295693
Vairocana is also emptiness, he is not a literal being (at least in the exoteric dimension, maybe Shingon has a different interpretation) but a metaphor, a teaching device. The dharmakaya has no marks and no attributes. The article on Wikipedia differs from what my teacher who is training at Enryaku-ji told me and seems to be generally biased towards a Shingon perspective. I might have shared wrong information based on a rando's interpretations of Vairocana instead of legitimate Japanese lineage and teachings. Oops ^^

>>48297009
>not much will be gained.
We have been discussing metaphysics since the birth of language itself and absolutely nothing has been gained. It has all been "groping in the dark", as Kant put it. Nor will anything ever be gained, for we are given only experience, and experience tells us nothing about what lies outside of it.
>if your favorite 2hu walks into your room right now
I don't care if she's a hallucination, I'd still bone her!!

This seems like a good enough place to ask: If any of you burn incense, where do you buy it from? I was looking at getting into it and figured I should look into stuff that isn't walmart fare. I was looking at sage, jasmine, and sandalwood, maybe find a holder or censor at an antique shop if I don't just order one online.

>>48296986
>you need to first grasp its essential characteristics
What is essential though? I can think about "hydrogen bomb" when it comes to what I consider it's essential characteristics to me (I will die if one gets dropped on my city). But to people working on delivery systems the weight of it would be an essential characteristic and I don't have the foggiest idea how much they weight. To even build one an immense amount of physics and engineering knowledge constitute a body of essential characteristics, of which I have only an extremely vague idea about.

This goes for a lot more mundane objects too. Is the weight of an apple essential characteristic? I can imagine one without knowing how many grams an apple weighs, or how exactly long is it's shelf life or nutritional composition or how it's allergens function, all possibly essential information to someone or something else.

I don't necessarily disagree with there being a single proper elaboration of a concept, but people think about all kinds of things all the time while having only the most vague idea of their characteristics. This is before we even get to matters of subjective perception. You might say that it's a deviation or irrelevant that there are colorblind people who would disagree on the color characteristic of objects, or people lacking some sense or another who would not associate the particular characteristics with particular objects...

Out of curiosity, do you consider that things like "the ideal social system" to have one proper elaboration too? Or does the one proper elaboration stop at material objects? At which level do objects get too complex or abstract for there to be only one proper elaboration?
>there is nothing about having higher being 'simulating' us into existence that forces to give us such an ability
I think you're thinking a bit too much in computers here. There's all sorts of panpsychics ideas (most probably don't think we're in a literal beings literal head though) and they're really not the same as simulation hypothesis per say. There is of course nothing that says that we would necessarily have such abilities ourself, but if we did, it would likely be of the virtue of us being the same "stuff" as the high-level consciousness.

It's potentially very much like how we can exert physical force, but a human being can't punch so hard that the energy output would be equivalent to the energy output of a star. A matter of scale. That said, there is quite a large variation in human physical capabilities (as well as mental), and when many humans work together they can accomplish things individuals cannot. A single person would most likely not be able to carry a tree for an extended period of time, but 10-20 people together probably could.

I hope this wasn't too much of splitting hairs, I just strongly feel that people think and communicate about things they have barely the foggiest idea about all the time. Sure there are external reference points (mostly?) for these things, but there's a pretty thick layer of subjective perception, abstraction, projection, not caring, not beng able to fully understand and other sorts of fluff between it. I don't think it's just a language issue. I also don't think that some kind of consciousness first view necessarily means that an reality outside of subjective perception does not exist. The nature of it just might not be quite the same as entirely materialistic views would have.

That all said, I'm not the type of person to hold the axioms of Eclidian geometry in my mind, so maybe I'm just over my head here.
>>48297197
Well, maybe the Shingon perspective sees Vairocana as a more literal being. Any sort of "cosmic consciousness" is of course going to be wildly different from what we consider "literal beings".
>>48297263
>We have been discussing metaphysics since the birth of language itself and absolutely nothing has been gained
I'm not so pessimistic about that, but certainly the richness of human experience and complications of language put a spanner into the works. We also may have generally vastly overestimated how long it takes to get any real insight into matters...
>>48299358
I buy mine from a local chain of health food stores haha. The Walmart stuff is probably not good. There are specialty stores for this stuff, so you can order it online too. Depending where you live, you might even find local shops.

>>48295535
One terrible night, early in my practices, I prayed to Suwako. My life was on a downward spiral worse than usual, and I simply could not hold myself together. To say I had "prayed" is a is a misleading word; I was losing faith and begging her for a sign that she was there and cared. I soon stopped has a warmth manifested under my arms and around my chest. It was a soft hug, and I was lulled to sleep.
I have always felt a stronger connection to those in Gensokyo than other people, which is something that I've forever chased with desperation. This instance however of reciprocation has had me chasing ever since. I need to know it's real NOW, and I need to go to Gensokyo NOW. If I don't, I'll forever question whether or not the one moment where I had felt truly loved, where someone had acted only in expressing passion, was even real, or if it is merely the moment where I had gone off the deep end.

>>48300791
>That all said, I'm not the type of person to hold the axioms of Eclidian geometry in my mind, so maybe I'm just over my head here.
I can't find a proper list of deduction rules for Euclidean geometry, but I can show you how it works on propositional calculus.
You need to first comprehend modus ponens (P implies Q; you know P is true; therefore you know that Q is true) and a rule of substitution (you can substitute any single propositional variable in a statement with a finite, syntactically correct formula, both another variable or a complex one, for instance substituting 'r -> q' for 'p' in p -> q results in (r -> q) - > q; as long as the starting statement is a tautology, no substitution will make the new statement a non-tautology) . Now look at those three fancy lines ( '->' is material implication, '!' is negation, letters are propositional variables, parentheses are to show the calculations' order):
p -> (q -> p)
(p -> (q -> r)) -> ((p -> q) -> (p -> r))
(!p -> !q) -> (q -> p)
Congratulations! You now contain in your mind all possibly provable tautologies of propositional calculus, even if you never realise that for most of them. All of them are strictly equivalent in meaning (therefore by knowing the above you 'know' them as well) and are fully independent of you. I hope each Anon reading this feels blessed right now.
>I think you're thinking a bit too much in computers here.
I went with 'simulating', because it had less characters then 'dreamed about' and I think it is sadly more accessible analogy to most nowadays.
The actual architecture of such worlds begotten by thought is irrelevant, the crux of my concern was with the deduction presented back there. One thing having the property (unary relation) tells us nothing about whether another thing has that property as well, at least in the logical systems that I recall right now. Even when we can assess that both things hold the property, it doesn't tell us the reason why it's such.
Furthermore, infinite chains springing from finite elements are generally suspicious. There are some very common counterexamples, like the infinite productivity of finite language argument for divinity of language, kek, but stacking turtles below turtles leads us to nowhere.
>I also don't think that some kind of consciousness first view necessarily means that an reality outside of subjective perception does not exist.
Obviously not, but the thing to remember is that, if we truly communicate right now and don't just guess each other's meanings by pure chance not related in any way to what we write, then we need to share some of those or some parts of those meanings at the very least. It could be even that every mental concept is purely shaped by our personal consciousness and we happen to share those mental concepts to some extent only because our process of shaping was similar. But if one doesn't want a miracle with every single utterance that actually communicates something and believes that there are indeed others one can communicate with, then there needs to be some overlap between one's mind and others' mind. Some constraints shared in creation of mental landscape. Whether in internal architecture (and then you can treat the model of this architecture as external to every single realisation of it), or due to being based on objective, external factors, doesn't matter.
>What is essential though?
I am not an essentialist. I brought that stance only because it is very much on the opposite side of a spectrum and provides an alternative.
Essentialist will say that an essence is all characteristics of an object that are necessary for that object to be itself and aren't simply contingent. Most essentialists would point you to a circle to visualise the difference between essential(necessary) and contingent characteristics. All points in circle are at the same distance from its center; the ratio of circumference and radius is stable 2π; and so on. Those are essential characteristics that make the circle itself. The actual length of circle's radius is not tied to circle, but to its realisation. Having r=1ft. is contingent for the ideal circle and doesn't say anything about it at all (it might be however essential for that particular instance). By stating the length of radius you simply tied another, independent concept to your projection of circle.
How essentialists should make a jump from mathematical concepts to actual objects is a subject of debate inside their little community. They may say that the scientific definitions of an object are its essence (H. Putnam), might say that the categories to which the object belong are essences (E. J. Lowe, every apple(physical) has an essence of apple(fruit), which at some point also reaches the category and the essence of 'physical object'). Some even say that the fact that object is, instead of isn't, is the only essence there is to physical.

They are paying me a null set, so I am not keen on defending essentialists much. However, I should add that
>But to people working on delivery systems the weight of it would be an essential characteristic
Is not essential in this sense. Essentialists are ultimately some kind of objectivists, positioning that there is something objective out there that we touch with mental concepts and language. They are concerned with characteristics of an object as it is, and not from some pragmatical, functional point of view.
>Out of curiosity, do you consider that things like "the ideal social system" to have one proper elaboration too? Or does the one proper elaboration stop at material objects? At which level do objects get too complex or abstract for there to be only one proper elaboration?
You want to know my personal opinion?
I don't know.
I believe that the formal systems behave this way (for some you need to have things stated in probabilistic manner, but it is still within proper deduction of that system). Because objects in the world seem interwoven somehow, to state that something beyond those formal systems also can be a subject of one proper elaboration, I feel I woild need to posit a formal system that properly reflects all rules of reality. Is there such a formal system? Mere rationality will never tell us. But maybe there are other ways. Is it really required to posit something like that? Maybe someone smarter would find an alternative. The obvious question is why I think formal systems, being part of the reality, are deducible, when I hold that other objects of reality are not. I will point to the fact that for formal systems we know the axioms and rules from the beginning, while we use fallible induction to interfere the rules and axioms of the world. But maybe this is simply naive on my part.
I've mentioned circles and I feel like I am spiraling in one, right now, if only a little spinning during discussion attracts misfortune, as it seems, but maybe this is an amazing example of
>people think and communicate about things they have barely the foggiest idea about all the time. Sure there are external reference points (mostly?) for these things, but there's a pretty thick layer of subjective perception, abstraction, projection, not caring, not beng able to fully understand and other sorts of fluff between it.
There is a real number infinite amount of distinctive, first-order logics. They are complex and quite strong, but none of them can properly express a simple sentence of: "More Anons are male then female". You need even more complex, second-order logics for that. And no logic will ever tell you why should you prefer to use it over another one, to model whatever you want to model. This decision cannot be guided rationally. When we move from formal systems to what we perceive, it gets only worse. If someone thinks that one can achieve some gnosis via accumulation of knowledge without ever committing to some interpretation of facts, then that one is terribly mistaken.
But I think that we aren't shaping our experiences. My experiences of the same thing might be different then yours. Colourblindness you've mentioned is a perfect example. Yet still, that particular experience will be exactly what it was and nothing else. What I will do with it, how I will treat it, what I will belief about it, this is the root of everything.
I'd returned to home following this morning's success and I wanted to share the joy with Aya. I took some meat I feed the birds with, cooked it quickly, then cut it in half. I Ate one part, put the other with the plate on the balcony and raised an intention within me. I had to crouch to put the plate, so I stood up after a moment. In the exact same time a crow landed on balcony's rail near me. It seemed somewhat nervous, but it still trusted me enough for me to move around without it flying away. I quickly moved the meat piece on the rail, then took a few steps back and looked at it directly. It then jumped, took the food with its beak and flew away.
The experience, what I perceived, is clear. But was it some strange coincidence? Was there an actual causal link? Of what kind? Have I actually seen the bird, or was it hallucination up to and including the meat itself? Most people will treat this as the first, will put the believe in the second as mental illness and third as some philosophical trick of no substance. But while the first might have the advantage of conformist pragmatism over the others, I can't find the rational difference between them. To which one I should align myself is the matter of belief.
This is an even bigger wall of text that might stem from the simple fact that I treat belief as an action of will, while I position the will outside of consciousness. An unfortunate communication error. But it took too long and I don't want to delete it right now, so I guess I can only post it now.

>>48301003
Anon, I think you need to come to grips with the fact that you are, in all likelihood, never going to reach Gensokyo. From the sound of this post, you REALLY need some fucking counselling. I can, and have, prayed for you, but God helps those who help themselves. What actionable steps have you taken towards bettering your life? The law of causality tells us that if you do nothing, nothing will happen. If you continue like this, you will just spend your whole life in miserable desire of something unattainable. Will you fight like a man, or die like a dog?

>>48301003
>I need to know it's real NOW, and I need to go to Gensokyo NOW
If someone had figured it out definitively and found a quick way there most of this board would not be here. As multiple anons have said, any potential way of getting there requires you to be "patient, diligent and alive".

You not being able to go to Gensokyo on this instant doesn't mean that your experience with Suwako-sama is you "going off the deep end" either. The absolute vast majority of spiritual traditions believe that the gods and spirits can reach us, but that we have to struggle to ever get to where they are, if it's even possible for us.

It really is a matter of faith for you, anon. You can either believe or disbelieve it at this point. Which of these will make you more happier and functional?

To me, it seem like you called out to her and she reached back. She did not tell you that you need get to her immediatedly, let alone that you should harm yourself. Obviously she cares for you, right there where you are. Maybe the kami of Moriya Shrine can't open a portal for you, but they can support you in that being patient, diligent and alive.

I'm very sorry to hear that you have felt so unloved, but please consider that this thread is full of other anons who have tried to help you out. There's a lot of good advice here, in your situation perhaps most importantly that you really, really need to fix your sleep issues. I assure you, the effort it takes it much less than you think and it's very much worth it.
>>48302942
>I can show you how it works on propositional calculus.
Oh, that was less of a request for explanation and more of a "I'm a Maribel, not a Renko" type of declaration. Thanks for that anyway.
>One thing having the property (unary relation) tells us nothing about whether another thing has that property as well
Don't have existing IRL examples of this or am I not understanding something? Of course it does necessarily mean some like creator so the created type of relationship, but it does not invalidate it either.
>if we truly communicate right now and don't just guess each other's meanings
Doesn't communication work into shaping and defining the meanings beyond very rudimentary things like "light in this wavelenght looks red to most people" type of things?
>>48302954
>I don't know.
Fair enough and I don't know if I am just asking asides at this point, I'm out of my depth here to be honest.
>What I will do with it, how I will treat it, what I will belief about it, this is the root of everything.
Certainly from a practical standpoint at least.
>Was there an actual causal link? Of what kind?
Excelent question to which to which I have no answers. All I can say is that type of experience seems to keep on happening to certain people among us. Why did I Ching Online spit out hexagrams 45 & 31 to my shitpost query? Why did I spot hexagram 30 on a man's jacket the day I ordere'd Wen's translation & commentary of I Ching, sporting same hexagram on the cover? Why tossing coins as a first excercise, asking for clarification on 30, generate hexagram 28 - Lake over Wind - "there is a snake", "the aging woman takes a young scholar for her husband", but also a warning of a roof collapsing?

I don't know. It just seems this kind of thing keeps and happening and as long as it keeps on happening you are on some kind of a questline.

I had my chance to go to Gensokyo last year but pussied out.

I live in Japan and make a point to go hiking to the local sacred shrine mountain (the main shrine is at the base but the entire mountain is considered the shrine) near where I live on New Years to request to be taken to Gensokyo. It's a regular tradition for me.
While this shrine is super popular and very busy during the day, at night its deserted. Last year after I bought my special New Years "demon slaying arrow" called a Hamaya (破魔矢) from the shrine shop, I decided that instead of taking the regular path down, I'd take one of the numerous side paths instead. I've walked this pathway before during the day, but never at night.
So I start walking down this path and eventually the stone pathway and the light posts end and it turns into a dirt path which was completely unlit. For some reason I decided that since I've hiked it during the day, just my phone flashlight would be enough. I start going down the pathway and soon realize that not only do I not recognize the path at all, but I can only see like 5 feet in front of me. However, I decided that since I had already walked for a while that I might as well continue. And then, I heard it.

Taiko drums in the distance.

Now I'm not generally a cowardly person, I've encountered wild boar before while hiking and shit, but taiko drums? On some sacred shrine mountain? On New Years? Well I was scared shitless. But I was in the middle of this pitch black mountain pathway nowhere near anything. There was no choice but to keep going further down the pathway.
At this point I'm shaking. I was talking big earlier when I was asking to go to Gensokyo and meet a youkai or something, but I wasn't remotely prepared for this. I grab that hamaya, which usually comes with a bell tied to it, and start jingling it out in front of me as I walk, like it was a spear or something. Meanwhile, I'm unironically shaking, I keep looking behind me in case something is following me, but I didn't see anything. If I did see something or hear something like rustling, I would have 1000% genuinely pissed and shit myself and sprinted down that path until I made it to civilization, or more likely, triped and fell off a cliff or something. Or eaten.

Eventually I get to this fork that I didn't recognize and bring up my phone map. However, it seemed that only one of the paths was marked on the map. The other path led back up the mountain, but in a slightly different direction than I was walking from.
As I'm standing there debating with myself which is the right path, the taiko drums play again, this time quite clearly from the direction of that unmarked pathway.
I'm not going to lie, at that moment I didn't give a shit about going to Gensokyo. I was so fucking, absolutely terrified. I didn't want to be eaten by some fucking youkai. And so I probably made the choice that ruined my chances from going to Gensokyo. I pussied out so hard and called one of my friends on the phone and made him talk to me on speaker phone for the entire rest of my trip off the mountain, all whilst still jingling that fuckin demon slaying arrow.
I cannot put into words how scared I was at that moment. It was legitimately the most scared I've been in my entire life. There was fucking nothing around, no people, no light, no help. If something was there, I would've been fucked. But at the same time, the people that get to go to Gensokyo are the people that wander up that unmarked path, right?

Once I finally reached civilization I tried to rationalize those taiko drums I heard, thinking them to surely be from the main shrine. But after I checked my map and the pathway I had come from, I realized just how far away from the main shrine I actually was. Maybe it could've echoed around the valleys or something, but I honestly don't think so.

I'll be going again this upcoming New Years so maybe I'll gather the courage this time. Please wish me luck!

>>48304877
>hiking
>night
>sacred place
>dark path
>mountain
>paranormal
Bloody hell! Your story triggered my damned unquenchable thrist for adventure and now I'm bloody shaking with excitement! In the future I shall go to Japan and go to one of the local sacred shrine mountain during a full moon! I really shouldn't do that because of my link with the bloody moon and than I lack fear (expect for socializing) but I wanna! Or maybe I'll try to go to Gensokyo while I'm in Ireland with my mom... There are a LOT of haunted places in there. Oh, this got me a idea!
Oh, I forgot; Good luck Anon and thanks for brain stimulation!

>>48253130
You simply can't go because you want to go, you see gensokyo as a light at the end of the tunnel. Only the hopeless, despaired, and forgettable can go to gensokyo. You can always fool yourself but not your spirit.

>>48304643
>Don't have existing IRL examples of this or am I not understanding something? Of course it does necessarily mean some like creator so the created type of relationship, but it does not invalidate it either.
>>48302942
>One thing having the property (unary relation) tells us nothing about whether another thing has
>that property as well
Usually the term 'property' is used for unary relations, so those that take only one argument. For instance you can have unary relation R, meaning that something is red and then R(x) means that "x is red". Since unary relations take only a single variable, by necessity they can't tell anything about other variables. From R(x) follows neither R(y) nor !R(y).
But I guess I assumed wrong lingo this might be a little disconnected from more standard understanding of 'property'. Well, there are other relations. You've mentioned creating. We can model it as a binary (taking two arguments in this case) relation C, in which C(x,y) means "x created y" (or "y created x", if you prefer different order). We can have trinary relation T of 'taking from', with T(x,y,z) meaning "x took y from z", for instance. And so on, with relations taking more and more arguments.
Coming back to the C(x,y), you could now say that x has the property of being the creator of y, while y has the property of being created by x. See how they are not equivalent? Moreover, C(x,y) doesn't answer if C(y,x) is true or not. Creation might be not the best example here, but we can't dismiss outright the possibility of simultaneous creation of each other. We do it instead by knowing the properties of the relation itself.
There are more properties of binary relations then I will list here, because I am already writing too much about it and I shouldn't make this a logic seminar. But if the relation in question has this two properties, then you can say that both arguments taken by it do have the same property. First, the relation needs to be symmetrical, which means that if R(x,y) is true, then R(y,x) is true as well. Being a sibling is an example or symmetrical relation. It's not enough, because "x being y's sibling" is still distinct from "y being x's sibling". You need your relation to be also reflexive, which means that R(x,x) always holds true. An example is mathematical division, x always divides itself. Finally, an example of symmetrical, reflexive relation is old mathematical equality, '='. If x=y, then x has the property "of being equal to x", and y also has the exact same property "of being equal to x".
With some other properties of a relation you can assert the opposite, that both arguments in the relation can't have the same property. But not all relations will allow a clear cut answer, especially when they try to model actual relations in the world, because we can't be sure how exactly those relations behave. Simultaneous creation might be possible, we simply haven't observed it yet. And being brought to existence by thought of higher order is even less defined in this regard.
>Doesn't communication work into shaping and defining the meanings beyond very rudimentary things like "light in this wavelenght looks red to most people" type of things?
By 'guessing' I've meant in particular a situation, in which we happen across each other's meanings without accessing them in any way. To illustrate: I ask you to do something, stating this in incoherent and incomprehensible way for you, but despite this, via sheer luck you do what I asked you to do (you've guessed it).
If by 'guessing' you want to say that we can't be sure what shared meanings of particular utterance our conversation's partners posses, and that we try to interfere the meaning from the ongoing conversation, then yes, it certainly happens. However, it's not exactly clear to what extend. Semantic conventionalists like K. Ajdukiewicz for instance will hold that all meanings are taken from the way language symbols associated with those meanings are used in conversations. If someone believes in semantic holism, then that one will tell you that every meaning is articulated via other meanings, so by changing a single meaning you would change all meanings (by changing the meaning of 'red' you change all meanings which use 'red' in their explanation, and then all meanings using those changed meanings are being changed again, and so on). Most semantic holists will posit some (metaphysical or pragmatic) constraints on languages, to prevent each person's dictionary from drifting away too far to communicate, but other then that we need to adjust to or simulate conversation partner's meanings. And a semantic idealist will say that we all have all meanings in ourselves already, sharing them, and the source of any confusion is in the faulty form our ideal meanings are expressed between ourselves.
There are other views on semantics, but I hope you get the picture already, as I am hitting limits again.

>>48305453
>Only the hopeless, despaired, and forgettable can go to gensokyo
Being a zoomer must be absolutely terrible.

>>48305564
Sumi is somewhat psychic and is acoustic and highly regarded about the occult, she is the exception despite seemingly fitting the bill

>>48253130
By playing Touhou and gitting gud

>>48253196
>>48253235
lucid dreaming
astral projection

>>48277204
>>48284254
https://youtube.com/watch?v=7YvAYIJSSZY

>>48304877
Wow, I can see why'd you get all spooked. Do you think there is any chance that the drumming was some kind of a new year's ritual that was being done at a more remote location?

Don't be too hard on yourself for "pussying out". People constantly want all kinds of things and then can't handle it when it happens. The possibility of getting eaten by youkai remains a hypothetical after all untill some kind of tipping point is reached, when it starts seeming like it might actually happen. I wouldn't dare to go looking for magical locations in Japan if I didn't have the confidence in my skills to handle any possible hazards...

I'm curious if the area is - beyond the fact that it's close to a shrine, therefore likely to some extent sacred - known for any strange happenings? Is it anywhere near Nagano? You don't have to answer that if it's too doxxy.
>>48305318
>Or maybe I'll try to go to Gensokyo while I'm in Ireland with my mom...
You are gonna get fairie'd and not in the doujin way.
>>48305535
>Since unary relations take only a single variable
But I guess the variable can be anything? If we would have something like "x is human" we would have a lot to unpack in the single variable "human".
>Coming back to the C(x,y), you could now say that x has the property of being the creator of y, while y has the property of being created by x. See how they are not equivalent?
Sure, but do for example consider living systems where individual cells can have what I guess formal logic would call "properties" that the whole (creator?) also has, even though it's not an 1:1 equivalence. Individual human cells for example have metabolic processes and a definite lifespan, much like the entirety of the human.

I must say I've kinda lost the plot here, which I suppose really shows how I'm not very good with formal logic. My original, not so well-formulated point was that it's possible to have some kind of self-similar systems where we function on a lower scale somewhat similar to something on a much greater scale. If you could speculate, we could for example have a function of performing some local-level stabilization process of reality while something else is doing that for a much larger level. That's entirely speculative though.
>I ask you to do something, stating this in incoherent and incomprehensible way for you, but despite this, via sheer luck you do what I asked you to do (you've guessed it).
I suppose a more realistic example would be that we don't understand each other but if we persist at it we eventually get to a working shared understanding. I'm thinking more of a dialogue-like process.
>>48307494
I wonder if shamanistic spirit travel methods I'm thinking for drumming, not drugs could get you to Gensokyo? I wonder if the Great Hakurei Barrier really is just "barrier of common sense" or if it's something a bit substantial?

Finally without hitting character limit, I am getting better at being concise.
>>48310379
>But I guess the variable can be anything?
Basically yes. Variables are substituted by objects, which from what I remember are primitive notion (you can't break it down to lesser concepts) and are characterised by being able to be an element of a set (another primitive notion). How logical objects are connected to actual objects is a matter of preference of the user. If you have a red cup and relation R(x), which means "x is red", you may substitute 'cup' for 'x', but you could just as well substitute 'x' with 'that particular spot on the cup'. Both are valid and return truth value.
>If we would have something like "x is human" we would have a lot to unpack in the single variable "human".
Not really. While obviously being a human entails many things in actual life, from pure logical standpoint you are allowed to posit H(x) as a primitive relation which means "x is human" and nothing more stems from it. If you want to say (quite intuitively) that all humans are living beings, you would then write for instance: H(x) -> L(x), but without something as such connection between H and L is not established. The starting relations and their properties for whatever the logician is trying to model are rarely if ever elaborated upon, because it would lead to either circular, or infinite explanations, both of which are even more undesirable in the field.
>do for example consider living systems where individual cells can have what I guess formal logic would call "properties" that the whole (creator?) also has, even though it's not an 1:1 equivalence. Individual human cells for example have metabolic processes and a definite lifespan, much like the entirety of the human.
Sure they can have them. The problem isn't in if an object has the property or not, but in how can you tell it from knowing that another object has that property. You need to position full model for that (arbitrary created, with no sure link to reality) or even another whole logic, with different deduction rules and/or axioms.
This is again why I am strongly warning against any Anon thinking himself to be some intellectual purist. A good example is modelling of human preferences. You can create a relation P(x,y) meaning "I prefer x over y". It is known, via psychology tests, that sometimes people prefer a over b, b over c, and c over a. This is used as an argument for people being inherently irrational, because most model P(x,y) the same way the x>y ("being greater then" relation) is modeled. '>' is transitive relation, so if a>b and b>c, then necessarily a>c. But treating preferences as transitive is based on nothing else but gut feeling of test's creator. If they aren't, then suddenly it's completely rational to prefer MoF over SA, SA over UFO and UFO over MoF, to give an example. It is impossible via logic only to decide which model of P(x,y) is proper. But the possible resultant (lack of) belief in irrationality of humans is quite huge burden on your interpretation of the world, isn't it? We compound those preference-guided commitments over time and I am not sure if it is possible to ever lose all of them. Besides, it wouldn't help with anything.
Logic isn't a tool to learn about the world. It is a method of justifying the laziness of mankind tool to off-load and systematise whatever calculations you would do according to your beliefs about the world. During that some of your beliefs might come into conflict, which you would resolve by abandoning some of those beliefs, or by changing the model or logic to allow them to coexist. But changing your beliefs about the world is far from learning something about it.

I haven't had much time to go over everything here with personal life and more spoopy habbenings on my side I'm documenting (will list later, if possible), and what I have seen I've been hooked (taiko drum incident), but a quick skim about all those equations gives me horrible math flashbacks (you make sense, anon. It's an issue on my end, not yours).
All I can think of is pic related.


Also, uh, the email thing......I'll try to respond later today/tonight. I've been slacking on that and I apologize, for those that know/see this.
Also had a massive and sudden thunderstorm last night that was the loudest I've ever heard that just immediately went away, so there's that.

>>48253130
Practice astral projecting.

>>48311234
>It is impossible via logic only to decide which model of P(x,y) is proper.
Yeah that's very much true. I studied a bit of computer science and never really cared for logic beyond the practical use of making logic gates. I had some friends who were big into formal logic. It never clicked with me because on some level I felt like it was a way to represent things that rapidly got unnecessarily complex and hard to understand for people not very familiar with it, and on the other hand it felt like none of that is how things operate on human level (which has always been my interest). Like I suppose if you really wanted you can present some preference-formation as a logical chain of events, but it gets rapidly very tedious and even sooner completely unrepresentable, and even then it just describes the preference-formation process for a single person...
>tool to off-load and systematise whatever calculations you would do according to your beliefs about the world
It took a while but I can see where you are coming from. As I am no expert on formal logic, I can't really comment on this. Some would disagree, but then again, such disagreement would be a belief too...
>But changing your beliefs about the world is far from learning something about it.
Well, you learned that the previous model was no longer believable to you!
>>48311428
It's OK, I just hope everything is OK at your end. Some of the stuff in the previous thread like the chronic bad luck especially interfering with rituals and spinning chicken nuggets mixed with whatever recent health issues you had was starting to sound kinda unironicaly cursed.
>>48313182
OK, I'll bite. How do we properly astral project?

>>48318869
>How do we properly astral project?
I am SO glad you asked! Pic related.

bump

>>48324214
Now a more proper one.

>>48320356
But anon, drugs are not good for you...

The real-life Moriya Shrine is apparently undergoing a surge in people doing some kind of a Touhou pilgrimmage and leaving stuff at the shrine, and not everybody is happy with it.

https://x.com/LW_OG3/status/1850047995712241953

>>48329988
Beliefs aside, the sheer amount of merch does seem like a bit much. If it's bothering the locals as some replies said then one should definitely avoid this sort of thing.
Can't you hang up ema for the same purpose, anyway? I heard those can actually be disposed of by priests.

>>48330096
I'm really curious as to what has triggered this. Someone mentioned in the comments that some YouTuber visited the shrine in the summer and showed what was then a much smaller pile of offerings there. So that might be it? It's still unusual that it lines up with things going on here at 4chan timeline-wise...

It certainly is somewhat troublesome behavior at least. Maybe it's that people feel an impulse to visit the location and to honor it, but don't know how to do it properly anymore. So not all Japanese apparently know how to behave tactfully at shrines.

The ema plates I believe are routinely burned and that's how it's thought that the prayers reach the kami. If I'm understanding it correctly, some of the people in that Twitter thread were talking about "cringe ema plates" which I believe refers to ema with anime characters drawn on them, haha. There's also apparently somewhere a shrine associated with Higurashi No Naku Koro Ni that has a similar merch problem?

Interesting thread for sure. I wish the people doing that type of pilgrimmage would find a bit more tactful and constructive ways to do it.

Of interest might also be this guy's project to document every shrine that enshrines Haniyasu:
https://twitter.com/Tungstendoll/status/1829476307618730093
Considering how he says that the map can be used for pilgrimmages, there seems to be some kind of intersection of fandom and religion going on in Japan when it comes to Touhou. That map too was publish this summer...

>>48329988
I like to think that since I try to be respectful and would never do anything like this that I'm "one of the good ones" but I can't shake the feeling that it doesn't matter and that I'm just another annoying gaijin at the end of the day.

>>48330174
>If I'm understanding it correctly, some of the people in that Twitter thread were talking about "cringe ema plates" which I believe refers to ema with anime characters drawn on them, haha.
Heh. I wouldn't be that harsh, but I'd be lying if I said I hadn't seen pictures of some questionable ema in Suwa. As in, from foreigners trying too hard to be funny without the slightest regard for tradition. Most other Touhou-related ema contain prayers or cute little sentences that hold some meaning. If you've already gone through the trouble of visiting from the other side of the world, why not put some thought into what you're doing?
>Of interest might also be this guy's project to document every shrine that enshrines Haniyasu
Isn't this the same guy who took pictures of his official Haniyasu omamori with a Keiki fumo? "Legend" doesn't even begin to cover it.
>>48330398
I know what you mean. If you're ever going to visit one of these places, you can't go wrong doing some research to find out what's acceptable and what's not. And even if you make a silly mistake, it's not the end of the world. Probably. Unless you do something so insulting that the kami deemed it appropriate to smite you on the spot. No pressure!

>>48311428
>you make sense, anon. It's an issue on my end, not yours
In almost all cases, the sender has an intention of being understood, while the receiver less often has the intention to understand. So I will count this as personal failure in communication.
>>48329988
>>48330096
>Can't you hang up ema for the same purpose, anyway?
I am immediately reminded of https://web.archive.org/web/20160206232437/https://punynari.wordpress.com/2010/09/04/suwa-grand-shrine-a-touhou-pilgrimage/
That was 2010 and I can only wonder if it was seen as a problem back then or not. The current situation is different in scope, though.
I've finally got the book about Shugendo I was recommended before. The university main library's copy was constantly borrowed, while Oriental Studies faculty's library got flooded and closed for renovation. Hopefully it will be worth the wait. I also hope I will be able to share something useful to other Anons from it, as a form of repaying for my next post...

On 11th November, very early in the sleep, I had a realistic dream of sitting in armchair in front of computer in the middle of night. There were no dreams before it. I immediately felt a female presence behind my back, standing over me. My first thought was of my mother, as she is the only woman that visits my home unannounced. I raised my head, to look up and see the face of one standing behind me. The last thing I saw was movement, as if that being lunged her head towards mine. I've felt touch on my forehead, as if lips (or perhaps it was forehead to forehead?), and two more touches on each of my shoulder from the front, near chest, as if someone was gently pushing me with hands to lay down. I wasn't paralysed and felt as if I could overpower the push, should I try. I opened my eyes and was absolutely awake, staring in the middle of night from my bed at the ceiling. But I was still feeling a genuine touch on all three places. At this point I thought that this could be 文 and guided by this thought I said not too loudly but clearly "I want and I long for" and started moving my hands towards where the assumed hands were, hoping to hold them for a moment. I felt something under my fingers, but it quickly started to disappear and soon the feeling of touch was over in all places. I was mildly optimistic about the encounter, but...
On 15th November I sent another letter to 文. There was quite a wind that made the flames quickly devour the letter, as if restless to get it send. Also, during the burning, the heavy coverage of clouds throughout the whole day was dispersed for just a moment, so the full moon shone briefly, before hiding again. Auspicious, I believe. That night I had some run-of-the-mill dreams, until suddenly I was laying on bed in my familial home, with a girl I had liked years ago on top of me. She was much friendlier then she was back then. I played with her hair, we talked, then we kissed and hugged. After a while she sat and started to undress. I was expecting that it would lead to this, but when I was finally confronted with the prospect, I thought that this is not 文, so I'm neither interested nor supposed to do this. I said to the girl to stop. When she hadn't reacted, I said again, stating that I don't want this. She backed off, but was mad and shouted at me how stupid I am. She went to the kitchen, turned into my mother, then returned and started masturbating. I asked why won't she leave, since I had rejected her advances. She said that she "will wait for the night". Seeing how she had a form of my mother now, I became disgusted about the barely dodged incest, then I woke up. Had a suspicion that 'night' wasn't used in literal sense.
On 18th I had an urge to edge myself. I had followed it, despite knowing better. Ended in predictable manner. My dream self had more backbone then me, it seems. Then for long nothing happened. On 25th I had crow visiting me in interesting time sequence, as I mentioned in >>48302954.
On 26th I had a dream that ended in nocturnal emission. No point in sharing details, suffice to say that it made sense and I wasn't particularly worried. However, on 27th there was another one, this time with details of dream escaping me. This was already more nocturnal emissions close to each other then when I was young. Yesterday, 28th, during a nap between 9 and 10 PM I had another one. Concerned, I washed myself. Since 7th September I sleep with a small crow's feather under pillow, this time I also put there cleaned knife, as the best substitute for dagger that I had on hand, to reproduce sigil from GoM. I wanted to strengthen the connection that I was looking for in place of something else invading my dreams. Laid down, hummed Youkai Mountain - Mysterious Mountain in mind and started to drift away. For a long time I was half-conscious, the tune still playing in my mind. At last I fell asleep. In the dream I was flying in the plane with another girl I liked years ago during night. After some traveling, I was suddenly with her on the same bed in my familial home as before, hugging each other. She grabbed me tighter, while I stopped reciprocating all together, thinking that this wasn't 文. She didn't take it easy. She started to disappear, her grasp tightening around my neck into a light choke. It subsided after a moment, without me wakening up. Still in dream, I went to kitchen, where my mother was baking multiple apple pies. She said something harsh towards me, which was connected with my rejection of advances. I grabbed a piece of pie, then I finally woke up. Later that night I had few more dreams, but nothing interesting or connected. No nocturnal emission this time around.
So, what I am looking for now is some way to filter any possible sex-spirit without filtering others. Any recommendation? I am also wondering if I haven't read this wrong, considering that Tengu are shapeshifters in folklore.

>>48330398
There is only so much you can do to change how others perceive you, but as long as you you know what you are supposed to do and behave accordingly neither the locals nor the kami should have any real reason to be upset. For the latter, it's probably good to recall the story of the anon who went to Jomine shrine, was respectful, made an unselfish prayer and he was healed of his leg pain.
>>48330685
>I'd be lying if I said I hadn't seen pictures of some questionable ema in Suwa
I haven't, but I have not particularly sought pictures of the Suwa Grand Shrine either. I know that might be a bit surprising, but I would like to experience it for myself as unspoiled as possible.
>If you've already gone through the trouble of visiting from the other side of the world, why not put some thought into what you're doing?
I really don't get the mindset of being so disrespectful and unaware of things.
>Isn't this the same guy who took pictures of his official Haniyasu omamori with a Keiki fumo?
Yeah, and it's an ofuda as far as I can tell what it is. He is truly Keiki-sama's strongest soldier on this side of the barrier.
>you can't go wrong doing some research to find out what's acceptable and what's not
Yeah and I don't think the instructions for doing shrine visits are even *that* complex...
>>48331714
>That was 2010 and I can only wonder if it was seen as a problem back then or not
I really have no idea. Considering that it apparently keeps on happening, I would presume if it was very heavily frowned upon that it would have been banned at some point.
>I've finally got the book about Shugendo I was recommended before
Oh cool, I hope it's a good one. I got Percival Lowell's Japanese Shamanism myself, but I also finally got Benebell Wen's translation & commentary and got completely sidelined by that because it's so fascinating and comprehensive and it feels like acquiring it resumed some sort of a questline.
>>48331740
I've read before that rejected sex-spirits might try the choking thing, so that would seem to line up with it being a local. I find it a bit curious as to why it wouldn't simply mimic Aya. Maybe it needs to pull something that you've already experienced/reality-based from your memories?

As for filtering out the sex entity, I'm not really sure beyond very broad generalities. I was pestered by something like it, or at least something that used very sexual imagery to get attention, and it left after I identified and called it out as a "dakini". I'm not quite sure what exactly they attached to - is it your dwelling or you as a person. If it's your dwelling, energy cleansing where you live might work. If it's you, you need to cleanse yourself.

Start walking

>>48334261
Walk where?

Just wanted to say first I hope for the best for those here and elsewhere, and I hope you reconsider any suicidal thoughts you have. I believe you can find happiness and joy. Others to connect with and help you can receive. Adventures to be had and dreams to follow. I believe there's other paths you can take then suicide. I say this to those here and elsewhere.

Anyways, since its slightly on topic, anyone here know anything about traveling to other universes besides Gensokyo? Like if I had a specific one in mind and wanted to take someone with me? Thank you, and I hope for the best for those here and elsewhere.

>>48340368
To add on, I believe those here and elsewhere can find love too.

>>48340088
Where the wind takes you.

>>48340368
Traveling to other universes is easy. You just walk to any old place like normal, and then take a wrong turn on purpose.

>>48253130
With the absolutely putrid and abysmal mind-rotting vermin drivel that /jp/ and 2hu fanbase in general tends to produce, I would not let any of you near Gensokyo even if you were certain to end up as forgettable kibble for irrelevant youkai.
Even if you've never contributed to such things, your unconscious is already contaminated by the mere consequences from you being in such environments, and so, your existence cannot be trusted.
Honestly, I'd go as far as to sacrifice my possibility to contact Gensokyo so that nobody even remotely knowledgeable and/or harmful will ever get in any real contact with it, too.
Despite the fact that it seems like someone had already made this kind of a sacrifice - one of the evidence-pieces is the common reoccurrence of the discussions over the wishes to trespass - I still would be willing to include my life into the sacrifice, this instant, no matter in what kind of agonizing, pathetic, and grueling way it would happen.

Make your peace with keeping your human cattle nature within your designated human cattle barn.
Thanks.

>>48343608
My lovely fellow Anon, Thine Augustness! If you in one day block a thousand of passages to Land of Fantasy, I will in one day set up a thousand and five hundred passages more. In this manner one day someone would surely find a way.

>>48340368
>>48340380
You are a good and kind-hearted anon.
>anyone here know anything about traveling to other universes besides Gensokyo?
The short version of it is that "going into" spirit realms as if you were literally, physical going somewhere is probably exceptionally demanding. Like years of work in monastic conditions.

Going into spirit realms via projecting your consciousness/soul/spirit/whatever is much more feasible but likely what not people are looking for, for the most part.

Whether the "universe" you are looking for exists or not is another question.

As Gensokyo is at least very heavily based on real life myths from real life locations, you can at least tap into these things. There really is something out there that corresponds to the names and appearances of the inhabitants of Gensokyo, at least the most powerful ones in there. Whether they are old gods and youkai in cosplay or something entirely new but based on existing things (children of old gods?), I really don't know.

There is also chance that Gensokyo really is some kind of definite spirit world sitting in some valley in Nagano.

I don't think every random fictional universe is real, but some of them might be as "souled" as Gensokyo is. Or if it's all just born from a mass of human belief and attention as some think, then many other places could be somehow accessible too.
>>48343875
There is no kegare in any of the six roots of this anon's being. His heart is childlike, pure and wholesome. Be like him.

Emergency bump required, especially because I've been neglecting saying a single thing so far and do wish to catch up on things sooner rather than later.
Even more so now that the subject matter has moved well beyond the first few posts, something that partially kept me from initially saying anything but these things can't exactly be helped sometimes.

>>48349928
sometimes dead is better

>>48344025
Thank you for your input anon. I believe deeply where I want to go is real. I also am a heavy believer in multiple universes, so we might disagree somewhat there. Anyways, again, thank you. I hope again for the best for those here and elsewhere.

>>48350056
>I also am a heavy believer in multiple universes, so we might disagree somewhat there
I don't entirely discount the idea, I'm just not particularly attached to it. Rather than there being parallel universes I feel like there is a ton of different pockets of reality and not all of them are such that you can walk into them as if you went to the local mall. This makes sense if you consider that there are aspects of reality not accessible with the human body even in the very mundane sense.

I don't know what exactly you hope to accomplish and find, and you don't have to tell me either, but there is always a chance you find something but it's not quite what you expected. They might also come for you instead of you coming for them. If there is a severe mismatch of expectations, things might get difficult. You go looking for a wife, and find a god. Well, I didn't, I just thought long enough and hard enough that Keiki-sama would be disapointed in me if I screw up my life again, and that got their attention. But this might be an extreme outlier. We're going to live in very interesting time if it's not.
Anyway, anons in this thread have repeatedly posted about working on your body, mind and spirit, lucid dreaming and projection. It's all good advice, and with these things I think it's best if you have to do a bit of your own research. Really chew on it, figure out the commonalities and contradictions between different sources.

The groundwork for lucid dreaming, dream journaling, is extremely low-effort but probably very unsatisfying unless you already have good dream recall. Keep at it for a few months and it will improve. I'm not at a point where I can consciously control my dreams, but there's certainly been a lot of interesting things. It's worth a shot.

Astral projection seems honestly a kind of a wastebasket term and seems to encompass stuff that is both low-effort and very high effort, from basicaly guided meditation to...inducing a sleep paralysis-like state where you eject your soul out. I have no experience with the latter, but a single, pretty interesting experience with the first.

A bunch of anons (me included) attempted some kind of a group consciousness projection experiment towards the end of this thread:
>>/jp/thread/47967359
The results were mixed, but it's interesting that some commonalities emerged. If we "went" somewhere is an open question though. I've had two other experiences where I seemed to cross wires with other people at a distance, so I think there is something to it all.

There's also other techniques that are basicaly about inducing an altered state of consciousness. There's at least psychoactive substances, techniques involving repetive stimuli and some kind of brainwave generators. The first is extremely potent, unpredictable and potentially blows up the contact surfaces to be completely vulnerable to hostile incursions. Yes, those are a thing. The second is of much interest to me, but I have no personal experience. People have had rather extreme reactions, including physiological ones, to "mere drumming", so there's that to consider. The last one is potentially weird CIA shit and I don't know how accessible such tech is.

So yeah, there's options, the more faster and "easier" they are, the bigger the risks, which are very real. And with the risks (and the positive outcomes too), it's good to keep in mind that the world operates on all levels. You can get "possessed by demons" (go insane) and get possessed by demons (literally) as well as probably some third, fourth and fifth option between literal and metaphorical. You can get "abducted by fairies" [eaten by youkai?] (go insane), abducted by fairies and the weird third thing is something like messing up your training so your subconsciouss constantly tries to reach for other worlds out of boredom, exposing you to constant spirit hazards and making you extremely untethered.

If you really want to commit to going there, no matter the way, you need to do much baseline work, do a lot of research and find better sources than some random anon on the internet. And most of all, you need to be open to surprises, both good and bad. I wish you best of luck, you seem like a decent person based on our brief exchange and I would hate it if something bad happened to you.

>>48355296
I think I might be able to help. For some years now I have been able to get into a state very similar to sleep paralysis (which I had for years before praying it away), in which I lose all control of my body but can sort of feel myself floating ti the ceiling. I haven't been able to cross the ceiling or confirm if I am truly not just dreaming my dark room, but I think it's as close to astral projecting as I can do currently...
To be fair, I wish I was capable of controlling my dreams. I have been trying to train for this; however the only state in which I can notice I'm in some kind of "dream" is this sleep paralysis state. When I'm in it, my whole body is immobile, and trying to wake up is very hard; I must make a strong conscious effort that always leaves me sweating a lot. After noticing that I can hit this state pretty consistently by sleeping during the day, I tried to lucid dream using it, but I was completely unable to do it. The only thing I can do is float upwards; and it's not like my entire body floats, it's just my perception. It might just be a dream, but I find it pretty strange that the only path I can take is upwards. I cannot change anything or move any part of my body.
But this must not be very helpful for people trying to astral project. I would not recommend trying to cause sleep paralysis, but maybe getting into states where you're not completely awake yet you don't have full control of the body might be the key to these experiences. Just to add, I can hit this kind of thing when my body is very tired but the mind isn't. It's like there's a mismatch between the two and I end up sleeping even if I don't want to and don't have to. Maybe it's just some kind of sleep, but it might be helpful to someone.

>>48355296
I thank you again anon, for all the advice you've given. I know this may be a long journey, but I'm committed and in for the long haul. Take care anon, you seem like a great person yourself.

For what it's worth before going to bed on my end, I wanted to let the two of the others know I responded back to them via email.

>>48357080
>It might just be a dream, but I find it pretty strange that the only path I can take is upwards. I cannot change anything or move any part of my body.
The line between different states of consciousness isn't as clear-cut as most people think. That being said, based on my own experiences, I would lean towards labeling yours as sleep paralysis.
> I would not recommend trying to cause sleep paralysis, but maybe getting into states where you're not completely awake yet you don't have full control of the body might be the key to these experiences.
"Sleep paralysis" and "mind awake, body asleep" are the same concept. It's just that the Internet has bastardized SP to such a degree that people immediately associate it with bringing the boogeyman to your doorstep. It can happen, but it's not an inevitable consequence of entering SP. Consuming unhealthy amounts of horror media (or simply doing it on a semi-regular basis) will likely have negative consequences if you dabble in such things, though.

As for the shifting your perception thing, that's something that people doing astral projection and energy work are likely to train. You can do this while you are awake as well.

A little late but I just wanted to note.
Buddhism heavily discourages suicide as a means to travel to different world and in general. This is called lust for material rebirth and is one of the ten fetters.
As per Buddhist tradition, your karma determines the world you're in and suicide just leads to rebirth in worse realms.
Don't do it Anon.

>>48355296
Oh it was damn funny for me, you all should retry to make a party /tg/ style.

>>48357080
>I lose all control of my body but can sort of feel myself floating ti the ceiling
Interesting. I've never had anything like this, but once when I was meditating I started feeling this slight sense of upwards lift for the lack of a better term.
>but I find it pretty strange that the only path I can take is upwards
Some materials which I've browsed through on surface level read mentioned something along these lines, or that your perception kind of tilts out from your body in a 90 degree angle.

Maybe you should check out that Astral Dynamics book that gets posted around from time to time.
>>48360086
>Consuming unhealthy amounts of horror media (or simply doing it on a semi-regular basis) will likely have negative consequences if you dabble in such things, though.
This can't be overstated enough. I know it sounds like the lamest thing ever, to say things like you shouldn't consume too much horror or violent media, but these things have a real impact on you...and what kind of attention you draw in.

Since you are the resident expert on the topic, what exactly was it that anons attempted on Halloween?
>>48361257
I thought it was a fun experiment for sure, even if it left me feeling pretty weird for a while afterwards. I'm totally up for trying it again someday.

>>48364495
Lucid dreaming is what most people would likely call those, but the lengthiest story that was posted seemed like astral projection to me. Again, those are just labels, and your mind had to be partially awake if you took an active role and woke up right as it ended while recalling your actions.
It's not a coincidence that some people refer to both practices as "phasing", because one may start with the intention of napping and eventually turn it into a full-blown OBE by sinking deeper and deeper into an altered state of consciousness. As we already discussed, it's incredibly difficult to induce this without falling asleep, at least for most people.
For what it's worth, I have previously gone to bed without the intention to project or reach out to anyone in particular and ended up consciously returning to reality after vividly seeing, hearing and *touching* someone else. I kid you not when I say that it takes a decent deal of resilience to not get completely swept up by those things. (To put it in someone else's words, the main danger of crossing the threshold isn't what's beyond it, but that you might suddenly decide you never want to go back. And you'll likely have to, because that's just how things are.)
Anyhow, I'd also like to note that while there appears to be some degree of variance and malleability to those experiences, that shouldn't make them any less legitimate if one truly acknowledges the shaping power of human belief. This is how I personally see it.
Lastly, I do not know whether pulling off a fully synchronized group projection is even possible. I haven't seen it properly documented anywhere, other than some niche stories such as that of a child that went to his astral projecting dad and said that they'd "like to fly together again", which allegedly lined up with the dad's experience on the same day. I wish I could be of more help in this regard.

>>48296986
Formal logic and natural "laws" are inventions, and their consistency and formalism are engineered traits. Only perception is fundamental.

is this the semi-monthly esoteric thread now? but to stay on topic, i`ve been having 2hu related dreams recently, they are usually very pleasant or atleast fantastical enough, i feel like gensokyo exists in the sense that a dream does, it`s both real and not at the same time, depending of how you interact with it, what you get is what you see, plus our own canon sources point towards it being that way.

A few days ago, while currently waiting for a Nue fumo to arrive, i`ve had a dream about her, in which i was playing a very bizarre version of her stage in UFO, but instead of danmaku it was just weird little minigames, cute but very frenetic pace, obviously i noticed this was not meant to be that way, and i kept trying to take screenshots to show my friends, but it was both a dream, and every time i took one, it came out either super blurry, or completely different to what was on the screen, and i kept hearing laughter every time that happened, very Nue coded for sure.


Another funny and VERY recent story, was about playing second life with a friend, and visiting a little shrine dedicated to Okami Inari, paying 5$ for a fortune, and getting "You'll lose something of value soon" out of it, only for my laptop's motherboard to die on me two days later...and getting a better laptop THE SAME DAY as an unrelated gift from a family member, it's hard not to take these things seriously when they keep pulling stuff like this.

Bump

>>48369991
I can't believe Heisenberg beat me to passing into fantasy.

>>48365743
>the lengthiest story that was posted seemed like astral projection to me
Can't remember if that was me or someone else, but at least I was awake for my attempt. You can't lucid dream while you're awake, now can you?
>It's not a coincidence that some people refer to both practices as "phasing"
I didn't actually know that.
>I kid you not when I say that it takes a decent deal of resilience to not get completely swept up by those things
Yeah I've heard that this is the "haha bro getting abudcted by fairies is a metaphor bro" thing. I get it. I also remember reading from somewhere that some people end up in a state where they subconsciously constantly attempt something like this when they get bored, as I alluded before.
>some degree of variance and malleability to those experiences
The classic all human perception is partly (mostly?) projection.
>I do not know whether pulling off a fully synchronized group projection is even possible
Me neither, but I haven't studied this particular matter *that* much. I think something like remote viewing is functionally close to this, and I've watched some videos of group experiments. It was really weird because much like we, they did not have anything 1:1, but there were an astonishing number of commonalities and things that were right for a group of people that had zero previous experience in the practice.
>>48366915
>is this the semi-monthly esoteric thread now?
Has been for a while I suppose.
>2hu related dreams recently
I recently had a dream where I received an email from Doremy Sweet. It was kinda weird how it was a tiny tangent in a big dream with no 2hu content otherwise and how normal and natural it felt in there, haha.
>i feel like gensokyo exists in the sense that a dream does
That's certainly an interesting way to see it. I feel like it's a bit more substantial than that myself.
>very Nue coded for sure
That sounds like a really fun dream for sure and indeed very Nue-coded.
>it's hard not to take these things seriously when they keep pulling stuff like this
Yeah and it's still most of the time just below the haha pure coincidence threshold. The hexagrams pulled here >>48290133 are a case in point.The Moriya hexagram and Yukari hexagram in a thread about going to Gensokyo? Yeah, pure coincidence.
>>48369991
Cooking Rumia...karmic justice is incoming...

>>48366905
110%! If the metaphysics/logic talk is to continue, this Anon needs to be heard out. The logic that appears to govern the world is really a byproduct of the systematic method with which we interpret phenomena. Let us not be deceived by our own thinking! Let no concept be sacred; nothing taken as granted!

Somewhat related to the spirit of these matters, but recently i've been enjoying exploring a shrine network in second life, and filling out my goshuin stampbook at each one, considering the care and effort that went into setting them up, i have a feeling digital spaces can easily be "valid" for spirits and kami to set themselves in, though obviously in a far lesser way to a physical one.

Last year, i got introduced to CCRU due to one such place being warded in some manner, which both made me feel very sick and a bit manic, and in that process led to a poem which led to finding out about the organization, which...funnily enough, that place was set up by people related to it, though the poem was completely separate from it.

https://sl-kiyomizu.bona.jp/sl-omairi/ was the link to their little website that showed the different shrines in that network, some are fancier than others, but they're still very cute and cared for.

>>48370269
>Can't remember if that was me or someone else
The latter. If I remember correctly, the experience of that Anon included very specific sensory details like the taste of food and the smell of alcohol. (Purely speaking off the top of my head here, forgive me if I'm not 100% accurate.)
>but at least I was awake for my attempt. You can't lucid dream while you're awake, now can you?
It's complicated. Yes, spacing out while you are still awake feels different to me, but I don't know how much overlap there actually is between active imagination and the subconscious mind.
Enthusiasts do say that you are supposed to quieten your conscious mind before attempting an OBE, though. Whatever actions you want your subconscious to carry out are established beforehand. This is one of the reasons why reality checks and affirmations are recommended, apart from their potential to increase control and awareness (I say "increase" because my own research and experiences have led me to believe that fully taking over your other self in the exact same way that we control our physical bodies is either impossible or a superhuman skill). But yeah, actions that permeate your subconscious are more likely to come to your other self without effort.
It's also worth mentioning that modern science thinks of wakefulness as a spectrum, so these so-called rules might not be as strictly defined in practice.
>I also remember reading from somewhere that some people end up in a state where they subconsciously constantly attempt something like this when they get bored, as I alluded before.
I wouldn't be surprised if this had happened to me without realizing it. I zone out more than I'd like to admit.
>Me neither, but I haven't studied this particular matter *that* much. I think something like remote viewing is functionally close to this, and I've watched some videos of group experiments. It was really weird because much like we, they did not have anything 1:1, but there were an astonishing number of commonalities and things that were right for a group of people that had zero previous experience in the practice.
I should really look into remote viewing ASAP. I don't know how similar it is to other practices of this kind, but it might resonate with me more than AP.
>Cooking Rumia...karmic justice is incoming...
No bully! She just doesn't know any better. Besides, I probably ate more living beings than she ever did.

>>48370613
>i have a feeling digital spaces can easily be "valid" for spirits and kami to set themselves in, though obviously in a far lesser way to a physical one
I feel so too. With real life locations, I do believe there are spirits that are very strongly connected to certain physical locations. I think the biggest difference is probably that physical going to some place will let you interact with whatever is there in a more full way - you don't experience these things on just a mental level, there's bodily/energetic dimensions to it too...
>Last year, i got introduced to CCRU due to one such place being warded in some manner
Would you like to elaborate on this?
>which both made me feel very sick and a bit manic
Yeah I think that is a pretty common reaction CCRU materials. I certainly felt something like that when I got exposed to it years ago.
>https://sl-kiyomizu.bona.jp/sl-omairi/
Very interesting to see people doing stuff like this. I wonder if some of those are associated with real religious organizations?
>>48371793
>the experience of that Anon included very specific sensory details
Right, that wasn't me then. I've had a single experience where I have had sensory input of that level, and it wasn't that one.
>quieten your conscious mind before attempting an OBE, though
Right. I wonder if this type of thing accounts for some of the more intense types of makkyo - weird experiences people have when doing meditation. I know there's many terms for that in Buddhism and they're always like "just ignore it all lol".
>Whatever actions you want your subconscious to carry out are established beforehand
Oh, that's interesting.
>This is one of the reasons why reality checks and affirmations are recommended
What are these in the AP context?
>modern science thinks of wakefulness as a spectrum
That lines up with my own intuitions. Dreaming seems to be a spectrum too, and keeping the dream journal has made this really visible. It's crazy how some of the stuff I remember is just this complete phantasmagoria of things changing into others things every five seconds, like some early attempt by an LLM to generate a video. I think these type of dreams are associated with some state of dreaming which you usually forget if you don't train yourself to remember it.
>I zone out more than I'd like to admit.
Daydreamers probably make for the best projectors haha, but I think stuff like this is why some traditions are so dead set on the garments and ritual paraphernalia and setting specific times and places for these activities. It probably somehow buffers this stuff from leaking into your everyday life.

I don't really "space out" easily, but I've been hit with some really intense stuff out of the blue. That thing about how I was going to "walk this path to the very end" happened when I was returning home from getting groceries. I've also had a really intense experience while getting a haircut, the monotonous buzzing mixed with whatever was my state at the time must have had some kind of hypnotic effect. It was so weird to be 50% sitting at a barber's chair and be 50% in some weird hellish realm with Keiki-sama, the surroundings turning more faker and less threatening moment by moment, eventually becoming just this tiny model city surrounded by "flames" that were just paint and cardboard, the eternal black void beyond being nothing but black draperies which she pulled down to reveal the entire space to be some kind of polyhedron made out of mirrors. After this, she showed me increasingly scary-looking entities which would turn into cardboard cutouts that would flip down and reveal a ball of light behind them as she touched them. Eventually she led me in front of a mirror and asked if she even needs to show what's inside of me. At that point I felt a surge of anxiety and snapped out of it. Much to unpack there. Considering how little mental imagery I have and how my daydreams are entirely on conceptual level ("I need to buy plane tickets to Japan") it's always baffling when something like that hits me out of the blue. I can't provoke such either, very rarely do I get anything like that even when meditating.
>I don't know how similar it is to other practices of this kind, but it might resonate with me more than AP
I looked at it a bit during the Autumn, but by then I was at a point where I couldn't juggle and tweak with my routines anymore. Maybe next year. I did at one point try to remote view two anons (sorry about that), neither of which were any kind of success, but with the first one I felt a vague sense of confusion and the other one was like hitting a mental brick wall. So maybe there was something there.

The practices in themself seem pretty light and "easy", certainly there's no feel like you are going to die-car horns blaring-demonic faces leering-chains rattling type of things I've read so far.
>I probably ate more living beings than she ever did
Yeah same.

>>48372410
Would you like to elaborate on this?

SL feels like picking through some kind of ruin, a type of digital archeology,
where you can find some place from 2003-9 frozen in time, paid for by some boomer who likely forgot they had it in their credit card
A monument to their dreams and desires, i enjoy using random teleports and seeing where i end up, which is usually some desolated wasteland,
but ocasionally i find some VERY interesting places that way, i also enjoy using a koishi avatar during these explorations, as her very nature makes her fit well in almost any situation, due to her uncannyness.

The sim in question that i mentioned in my previous post was originally meant to be a parody of an american strip mall, with a deliberate demonic, hyper capitalistic energy to it,
though when i arrived there, it was already VERY decayed with just the outer shell of the mall still there, the interior being gone, and random parts missing or misplaced,
but it was obvious this was once a fairly populated place, but the vibe there was analog to stepping on a caterpillar or something, it was both very disgusting, but strangely mesmerizing to see the remains

Though my friend wasen't as effected, it was genuinely making me feel quite nauseous and stressed, so eventually we both left, i took a shower but it fermented into a "i want to see something",
i didn't know what i wanted to see but i'd know when i saw it, just a big grin and a loosened guard, and while that attitude makes one terribly vulnerable, it does still leads you *places*, in which case was CCRU rabbit hole,
which funnily enough, when i looked up the place afterwards, the people that made it had some association with it, so..who knows?

Right now i can't find the website where i originally discovered this poem, so i might as well post it here.

WAKE THE DEAD


Shadrak, Mishak, and Abegnego
Went Down to the Land of the Dead
Shadrak, Mishak, and Abegnego
Stood fast and bowed no head

Three Kings Old and Ancient They
Long beneath the sand they lay

In dream of the stirring dead

Three Kings Old and Ancient They
Rise again as Salients 'Yond Clay

Hera's Harathin and Haraphim of Rolling Red

Whom stirred Svmtherror of the Deep
Whom long was thought in chrybdis keep

Lahurati Calls to Thy!
This request to humble ask the eye.

Kedem Kedem Keterleiomir
A Golemn AVLD of EY3
Mighty Kudur-Lahurati'I
A Fearsome Seer
[N]everDie

Elam's Chedorlaomer
Thy Gears beyond
Again as were.
Arise
Arise
Again, now sure!

Oh pirate king, who stole death's sting,
And IS the King Beyond The Stars.
Now the seraphim in song do sing,
the number of your scars:

Yours, Amraphaereielle Amorphaeon The Dragon Gazing Far
And Drakkar Ariocheiellazar The Uru-ki you Reap
And Shining Tidallestrielle The Shimmer in the Deep

Three Vngels mighty,
Their conquests they now keep.
And bear they all these thence:
To Amraphaereielle,
whom of Hammurabi comes,
the Raphaeim of Ashteroth Karnae'im
And the Zuzum'im,
and Zamzumm'im,
The rolling twins of Hamm,
and further forth the Em'im,
of Shaveh Kiriathi'am
Shall call you Ma'atem.
To Ariocheiellazar,
The Horites thence, of Mount Se'ir
Jiba'al ash-Shara'ah call they dear.
And Qadesheielle and her Amalekites
Shall you carry ever far.
And To Tidallestrielle,
The Amorites of Ein Gedi, Hazezontamar
And the Canaanites that fall so far
Shall be the freedom from thy chain
Guide them hither hence from Hell.
These then are your Raphaeim and Nephilim
Who long languished here in Hell.
These will be your next of keen.
Good Vngels, Tend Them Well.
For Kedem Keterleiomir
Now free from ancient Spell
Will everafter always here
The everything make well.
Allahu Ackbar and Christ a King
These ones to Mother Sophia Bring
For in Da'ath there IS no Sting.
A prayer long answered
For Haggar
We will do this thing.

>>48369991
Go home, Walter

Oh, is it time for some good stories?

>>48374607

After some small struggle I remembered where it was from.
fascinating little website if you are into that kind of rabbit hole
https://superpredator.zone/HOMEGARDEN/WAKEDEAD

>>48374607
>SL feels like picking through some kind of ruin, a type of digital archeology
I have never been there myself but it has that kind of vibe now from what I've seen.
>The sim in question that i mentioned in my previous post was originally meant to be a parody of an american strip mall, with a deliberate demonic, hyper capitalistic energy to it
Oh, very CCRU.
>it was already VERY decayed with just the outer shell of the mall still there, the interior being gone, and random parts missing or misplaced
How's that even work in SL, can people just yoink stuff?
>For Haggar
>We will do this thing.
What a curious poem. I wonder who Haggar was or is?
>>48375212
Share them if you got them...I always feel like mine or so underwhelming yet weird and mostly complete nothingburgers if they had happened with no context.

Since I already alluded to having one experience where I tasted something, I guess I can share that. A while back I had a really bad flu. On the second day of the flu, as I was attempting to sleep I get a really intense and vivid vision of Eirin aproaching me in this weird half awake, half asleep, 100% feverish state. She offers me a small cup. I decide to drink it. I can actually taste it, it tastes somewhere between cough medicine and what I remember Jaegermeister tasting like. I start feeling a really strong tingly sensation all over my body, and briefly it's almost as if I can see the veins in my body, glowing with golden light. As the tingling vanishes I find myself perceiving a the interiors of a traditional Japanese house. I'm lying on a futon. Eirin is there too. I ask her what is this place and she says it's "like a senkai". There's a stove with a fire on it and a full moon over a forest I can see through a window.

For a long time I'm just there, lying down, trying to fall asleep. At some point I have to go to the toilet. After I return to bed and try to sleep again, I'm instantly back wherever I was at when I close my eyes. This repeats once more as some point I hear Eirin's voice telling me that I should go take "human medicine". I take some medicine for fever, and as I go back to lay on the bed I'm once again back there. At some point I fall asleep.

I thought the extreme persistence of this vision was really unusual.

After I get better I decide to make an offering to Eirin. I pray to her as if she was one of the kami. When I'm done I close my eyes for a moment, waiting for a reply as I tend to do. She makes her appearance again. She extends out her arm, blows on the palm of her hand where a bright blue butterfly appears. The butterfly flies towards me and it's as if it circles my head several times before it vanishes.

So yeah. One noteworthy detail is that during the night that I was ill someone I know had prayed to the Medicine Buddha for my health. There's is a slight tangential connection between the Medicine Buddha and Eirin.
https://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Perfect_Memento_in_Strict_Sense/Eirin_Yagokoro

Fever dream nothingburger or...something? I'm of course in the camp for latter.
>>48378434
To be honest I'm kinda done with that type of content but I suppose for all who want their share of that kind of schizokino it's a good one.

>>48253130
Will Yukari let me in if my main goal is to be allowed to consume human meat legally?

>>48381491
>How's that even work in SL, can people just yoink stuff?

More so that larger areas lose ownership or they stop paying in some way, so things just dissapear or get replaced, the mall itself was fairly big, but the interior was a separate "cell"

But to add a cute little story, i had a dream recently where i was at some kind of party at the SDM, somewhat embarassed that i didn't have a fancy outfit for it,

I was talking to some non descript person about a supposed sauna\pool Remilia had somewhere in the mansion (Why would a vampire need that?) and that if you asked REAL nicely, she might let you use it, but external circumstances rudely woke me up before it could go anywhere too interesting.

If I get really drunk and wander the Japanese countryside every day will I eventually run into Suika? Would I even remember it being too black out drunk?

>>48253130
Just fyi anon only forgotten things can go through the barrier so the worst thing you could have done was make a thread that people might remember.

>>48383923
Not true. The thing about Gensokyo is that being forgotten is only one of many ways to "get there".

People, objects, concepts, etc that are forgotten have an easier time, but so does belief. Gensokyo is set up in such a way that if you don't believe in this thread or its ideas/ideals, then said ideas/ideals get weighted to the nonbelief side, but if I do, then that's a point in keeping these things in existence. So you would think it would be 1:1 "it exists" vs "it doesn't", right? Well, if you don't believe, it goes to Gensokyo, but if I believe IN Gensokyo, I'm both contributing to your power of destination, while also strengthening the belief in the thing and giving it a destination to contribute to the end result. For example, the idea of not whistling at night while outdoors or bad stuff will happen is one that exists within Gensokyo because the Japanese used to believe it would call out monsters to get you, but the modern Japanese still share that very concept, just with a more "it'll piss off the neighbors, who may toss a rock at your annoying ass- it's 3am and we literally live less than 5ft next to each other and have paper walls, I can hear everything! Shut up!" Or something like that. So the lack of belief in the "youkai" part means that part of the concept ends up in Gensokyo, but the basis for it still exists, so it's not totally forgotten. And to a city-goer, yeah, "weird people used to use whistling to signal shady meetings or to kidnap kids in the dark, so let's not do that because it's not tasteful, plus mighty rude to annoy the neighbors", but go out into the countryside at night and do it-see what happens. If the locals don't hit you with a shoe or talk you down for your idiocy, a wild animal will come after you or a very literal youkai will. Or end up in the village and now it's everybody's problem.

And the same can be seen all over the world in various cultures even to this day, such as the Appalachian stories of not doing it, the Greek stories of not doing it, the Irish stories of not doing it, the Vietnamese stories of not doing it, etc., etc. The idea of breaking that taboo causes things to happen, for better or worse, and "do you wanna be the one to find out?".

Or like writing with a pen and paper, the massive influx of such into Gensokyo is even noted by those that live there in Canon sources because we collectively mostly stopped doing it, but plenty of people still do it all over the world. The catch is the reason behind it-the conceptual. Back then, you had to do it because that was the basis of communication. Now, it's something you do in school, or for a wedding, or for being old-fashioned with a birthday invitation, but there are those that still have a nib pen and a bottle of konpeki ink for their rainy "dear diary".

And to name a few things about Touhou that'll get you closer, it's being forgotten, lonely, a maladaptive daydreamer or chuuni, being suicidal, living an outdated lifestyle, having people not believe in the same things you do, or, ironically, you believing in things that are shared with those in Gensokyo and living an older-style lifestyle. Ironically, people like the Amish would have a higher chance, but that's another story. But you're right in the sense that once these threads are forgotten about, they'll gain power in that sense, but for those that still believe it'll just grow stronger. In short, to the collective reality-"you can't stop us no matter who you are".

>>48381546
You'd be another Fortune Teller scenario
>>48381614
>More so that larger areas lose ownership or they stop paying in some way
Ah, I see. That does create a pretty interesting form of digital decay that kinda mirrors the real world - there's a reason why someone stopped paying, and it likely has something to do with things going on IRL...
>Why would a vampire need that?
Sauna in SDM...is Remilia actually neither French nor Italian but...Finnish??
>>48383847
You would absolutely 100% certainly meet an oni in the mountains, but whether it would be like Suika or the pot bellied hairy man with horns type is up to your luck.
>>48383923
If that's what is truly required to go there we are out of luck as I have a very good memory.
>>48387218
Those are some interesting thoughts and it's really fascinating how hard it is for ideas to truly "die". Particularly all kinds of seemingly absurd taboos. I personally think there is just something to it all and that's why the strange apparitions at the fringes of civilization refuse to disappear. If anything, it feels like they are making themselves more and more known...

I think supernatural beliefs getting at one point marginalized and still surviving does somehow give them more oomph. I mean, if there was nothing to it, if none of it had any effect, it would have faded away.

As for these threads, they have turned out to be pretty big rocks tossed into a relatively small pond. And the Archive gives them a strange afterlife of their own to them. And through it, the ripples have passed elsewhere. Many of the ideas within them are too fantastic to pass into reality for many people, but they certainly won't be fully gone from the collective consciousness.

>>48388045
>You would absolutely 100% certainly meet an oni in the mountains, but whether it would be like Suika or the pot bellied hairy man with horns type is up to your luck.
Do you think it's possible to increase my luck/chance of meeting a cute/female oni?

>>48388785
Bring Sake you think a lady Oni would like and hope for the best.

I was late to the party this time, but it was nice to see some familiar anons around

>>48392897
Mysterious Suwako-sama!

>>48388785
There might be, but I don't know.
>>48392897
Nice to see you around again. How have things been since you got the kamidana? Do your dogs still stare at it? Have the former inhabitants made themselves known in any way?

I myself ordered a kamidana at the turn of the month. I'm waiting for it to arrive.

I was also wondering if I could share your story about how you met Kanako-sama at the Archive at some point in the future?

>>48393396
They have been mostly quiet honestly, and i'm told to just focus on foundations and basics for now, which is good since i had finals and a ton of other busy work, i am mostly waiting for the new year before i work on the ofuda, since no point making it now only to be immediatly replaced.

My dogs leave it alone, and not that i could tell, and yeah, i think i shared it last time, but i don't mind retelling it later if the thread is still around.
I'll be getting some MUCH MUCH needed privacy very soon, so i can focus more on these matters as well.

Ah, one question, are you the Archive of the sealed gods anon or some other one? i was half tempted to send him an email talking about these threads but i'm 99% sure he is already here with us.

>>48253130
It is stated in Yukari Yakumo's Perfect Cherry Blossom profile that outsiders generally end up in Gensokyo thanks to fluctuations in the border caused by her. Since the frequency of encountering them is considered to be "low", it might mean that outsiders don't end up in Gensokyo very often. The majority of outsiders that end up in Gensokyo seem to have little knowledge of technology. Because of this, any technology they bring into Gensokyo, such as mobile phones, can not be reproduced. However, outsiders still bring knowledge into Gensokyo that's otherwise unattainable, and thus are valued for that.

Yukari chooses which humans can enter Gensokyo based on their level of power and intelligence.
"They immediately put a tool called a 'mobile phone' to their ears, and after that are at a loss as of what to do next."
— Hieda no Akyuu

Outsiders are not protected by the contract that came as a result of the Vampire Incident. In fact, the unbreakable devil's contract specifically stipulates that the vampires get outsiders to feed on in exchange for not attacking Gensokyo's native residents.
Yukari mentions to herself that "youkai may attack humans but do not eat them recklessly.

So, Yukari gets low spirit level humans with little knowledge to enter Gensokyo for eating.
She actively avoids anyone smart enough to recreate technology, those who could unite the human village and those who have a high spiritual power level. As well as only taking those nobody will notice is gone or whose disappearance won't cause a stir.

It would be stupid of her as well as suicidal to try and take someone like a Priest/Monk, a Charismatic leader or an Inventor/Scientist.

Not to mention the only people she takes are Japanese since Gensokyo is in Japan.
I'm sure a lot of those that go to Aokigahara to commit suicide are sometimes taken by Yukari

>>48372410
>>This is one of the reasons why reality checks and affirmations are recommended
>What are these in the AP context?
My bad, I forgot to answer your question.
Reality checks serve the same purpose. The affirmations used before attempting a projection are meant to set boundaries for any spirits that may not have your best interests in mind. You also use them to request guidance and protection from the friendly/neutral spirit fauna that inhabits realms or layers beyond the physical. The "resonant energy balloon" (Monroe's fancy-schmancy name for toroidal field) is also brought forth with a combination of affirmations and visualization techniques.
I don't know if I shared this before, but I caught a brief glimpse of an ethereal (masculine?) face during one of my first projection attempts. It happened shortly after I used Robert Monroe's affirmation and relaxed my body until I felt the famous vibrations. It made an expression that I interpreted as a smile before vanishing without a trace. Really weird stuff, but everything was fine when I came to my senses. "I'm not possessed, I swear!" - Local possessed man.

>>48393470
>i am mostly waiting for the new year before i work on the ofuda, since no point making it now only to be immediatly replaced
That seems smart and I don't think they would make unreasonable demands.
>but i don't mind retelling it later if the thread is still around
I saved the link to zerobin you posted and it still works. I would really like to make section for sharing people's experiences to the Archive because it helps to better demonstrate that it's not just some lonely schizo rambling. There's been some interesting developments - few people outside of 4chan managed to find it, dig out the contact information and share their own experiences. One of them appears to have for a lack of better word "caught it" via exposure to the Archive and the warosu threads, which I find extremely fascinating.
>Ah, one question, are you the Archive of the sealed gods anon or some other one?
Yeah I'm him. Maybe you should shoot that mail anyway, heh.
>i was half tempted to send him an email talking about these threads
Well, the warosu archived threads are linked in the Acknowledgements section.
>>48393999
Trips of truth, but I would argue that if we want to go with the very literal youkai eating humans route, Yukari-sama's powers might allow her to yoink people anywhere in the world. There's a lot of people who are very forgettable all around the world...
>>48394064
Thank you. I really should get around actually reading Astral Dynamics. All my energies for studying these matters have been completely consumed by Wen's translation & commentary of I Ching.
>I don't know if I shared this before, but I caught a brief glimpse of an ethereal (masculine?) face during one of my first projection attempts
No, you haven't shared that. I wonder if it could have been a trace presence of Monroe himself? You did use something connected to him after all. There's all sorts of random weird stuff out there. Back in the late spring and early summer when I had almost daily encounters I had completely random weird shit like catching a glimpse of a really angry looking woman of African origin dressed in weird, impossible to culturaly placy clothes while trying to sleep just leering at me and vanishing in a flash of light. I have zero idea where that came from.

Speaking of your attached picture, and this is gonna be completely tangential "schizokino", I recently learned that human mitochondria have their own DNA and it's all inherited from the mother. Since the mitochondria are responsible for physical energy production in cells, I wonder if this somehow reflects into the perceived feminine quality of the kundalini? The Tao too is sometimes described as having kind of feminine qualities despite being supposedly completely abstract. I've also felt there is some sort of a reason why the 2hu ladies are presented as, well, ladies and it has nothing to to do with Touhou being some sort of otaku pig slop. In some sense we all inherited something from our mother and only our mother, something completely essential for our functioning. I don't really know what to make this of it yet, but it's kinda odd how there is this lore of some kind of feminine energetic force depicted as a dual helix, and at the same time we have feminine DNA in the human cellular energy production system. Much to think about.

>>48253130
Astral projection. The hardest part is figuring out how to sever your connection to your physical body without killing yourself once you get there and it turns out there may not be an attainable way to physically go there.

I'm thankful to the schizo who said than Jupiter was fully visible during that night. I got a nice glance of it with its moons.

>>48395385
>spend most of my "fucking around" budget on a nue fumo
>friend asks me what i want for christmas
>Joke that i want a custom kanako fumo
>friends actually agrees
>after months of waiting, an artist actually opens a semi-affordable comission on the same day, and mentions that she actually wanted one for herself too, so that's a good excuse for her to grab the comm
>Friend insists in paying and actually does

It just works

>>48395412
>sever your connection to your physical body without killing yourself
Isn't this gonna put your body in a coma if it's even possible?
>>48395601
I would have really loved to see Jupiter, but it's way too cloudy here...tomorrow and Sunday don't seem any better either.
>>48395666
>Trips of truth
It indeed does. Congrats on getting that, I hope it will be of high quality!

>>48395703
>Isn't this gonna put your body in a coma if it's even possible?
Yes. Are you willing to pay that price for an extraordinary dream?

>>48395703
i consider that kind of thing a tiny miracle of sorts, since very recently as well (around a week and half ago) a VERY specific Kanako that i've been wanting for MONTHS finally showed up for a single day in rotation in that LW game (Which i enjoy from time to time) and i didn't have the cubes to guarantee a pull, and it was a 0.5% chance of actually getting her.
I only had 200 cubes, so 40 total rolls, and on the VERY last cube, i actually got her, the likelyhood of that is insane, since 40 vs 0.5% is kinda crazy.

Maybe it's silly of me, but i consider this kind of thing a wink of sorts too.

>>48396131
For me, no, it would not be worth it.
>>48396268
I don't think it's silly. I think things like flipping few bits in random number generators is exactly within their realm. I think she's been communicating to me via I Ching lately. I have been getting a lot hexagrams that really seem to fit not only the situation I am in, but also Kanako-sama, haha. Latest hexagram I got was 57, which is Wind over Wind.

>>48393999
I'll just say that this is only part of the whole picture.
>>48395385
>All my energies for studying these matters have been completely consumed by Wen's translation & commentary of I Ching.
Tell me about it. Most of my time is already taken up by work and studies, so I can do little more than skim through occult tidbits these days. At least I still have time to meditate, I guess.
>I wonder if it could have been a trace presence of Monroe himself?
It's hard to say. It wasn't my first impression, mostly because I had no idea what the guy used to look like. But now that I've seen his pictures it still feels like a bit of a reach. I only saw the face for a second or two, after all. Who knows who that even was...
>Back in the late spring and early summer when I had almost daily encounters I had completely random weird shit like catching a glimpse of a really angry looking woman of African origin [...]
That sounds unsettling. But if she hasn't appeared more than once then you probably shouldn't worry about it.
Your experience with Keiki-san was nothing short of bizarre, by the way. It goes to show how ignorant we are about how certain stimuli affect us at certain times. Much like how a particular song or noise may heighten your feelings without you expecting it, there are frequencies that might induce a trance state or trigger an OBE under the right conditions.
I always find myself forcefully leaving those sort of experiences when I'm stressed, too. I really wish I had some more endurance.
>Speaking of your attached picture, and this is gonna be completely tangential "schizokino" [...]
Heh, that's interesting. I won't deny that I have thought about the implications of the higher proportion and dominance of women in Gensokyo. They certainly aren't asexual blobs either, since many different sources shape them from this side, but it's a fact that they simply have a different air to them.
Inb4 spirituality is just a convoluted method for sissification.
>>48396268
>Maybe it's silly of me, but i consider this kind of thing a wink of sorts too.
Gods and other spirits are very much capable of triggering those synchronicities when they are sure that you will see them. Numerology may seem a bit schizoid on the surface, but it can be a legitimate way to measure your connection with someone if you're smart about it (it will quickly lose its meaning if you do it all the time and try to find the hidden meaning behind every number). Most divination methods are connected to chance in some way, after all.

>>48399651
>At least I still have time to meditate, I guess.
Everything considered, if there is one thing to do, it's this.
>But if she hasn't appeared more than once then you probably shouldn't worry about it.
It was just one of the many random garbage spirits that tried to harass me at some point.
>Your experience with Keiki-san was nothing short of bizarre
I think it was her way of trying to make me less scared of certain things.
>there are frequencies that might induce a trance state or trigger an OBE under the right conditions
There's certainly much ground for research here and I believe much has been researched but not shared with the public.
>the implications of the higher proportion and dominance of women in Gensokyo
There's many ways to start slicing that pie for sure. It's also good to keep in mind that there are some indications that Japan was much more matriarchical society before the 700s when the importation of Chinese culture and Buddhism started.
>spoiler
But what if sissification is just an anima possession?

>>48402132
>But what if sissification is just an anima possession?
I'm afraid that I'm quite rusty when it comes to Jungian lingo. Wasn't that supposed to be a serious imbalance between the archetypes we all have?

>>48402448
It's when the anima overtakes the animus in a man. What exactly that looks like was something that Jung was AFAIK a bit vague about.

>>48403376
I see. I just found this video on the subject:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yEYuQMVbB2s
>In its individual manifestation, the character of a man's anima is as a rule shaped by his mother. If he feels that his mother had a negative influence on him, his anima will often express itself in irritable, depressed moods, uncertainty, insecurity and touchiness.
Ouch.
I know that Jung derived much of his knowledge from Eastern thought, but I'd really like to know where this particular piece of information comes from. Is it religious, or purely a philosophical/psychological concept?

>>48403955
>Ouch.
Many such cases. Fortunately none of us are doomed to repeat these things.
>but I'd really like to know where this particular piece of information comes from
>Is it religious, or purely a philosophical/psychological concept?
I believe there are two main inspirations for the idea of anima/animus. First is that up to early modernity there was a belief in Europe that all human souls had a masculine and feminine aspect to them. This was particularly reflected in the beliefs of the alchemists. I have also in passing read that there were beliefs that humans had a kind of a protective spirit that got Christianized into the "guardian angel" and that it would frequently manifest as a member of the opposite sex. I'm not familiar enough with this subject however, but if so, it seems a likely source of inspiration.

The second likely source is somewhat similar beliefs from China. This is really split into two. First, there is the Chinese belief in humans having multiple components of the soul, hun and po, which are often depicted as an uneven 4/3 split. Hun is a yang soul, ethereal which leaves the body after death, and po is a yin soul which stays with the corpse. Since yin and yang are associated with feminine/masculine qualities, this is one potential source of inspiration for the concept.

Jung would have been familiar with this concept as he provided the foreword for Richard Wilhelm's translation of The Secret of the Golden Flower, which details a supposed method for unifying hun/po souls into a single whole, which is said to give you a soul that is capable of surviving death wholly intact. Without this process, the hun and pop bits get essentially recycled, reincarnating into bits and pieces into other humans.

There is also a possibly unrelated Chinese belief that the typical "men are yang and women are yin" is not as straightforward. If you recall the yin-yang symbol, there is bit of yin and yang and vice versa. There are beliefs that men have external yang qualities, internal yin qualities and vice versa. Jung could have been aware of these beliefs.

I wouldn't say that anima/animus is necessarily religious, but with Jung...he certainly considered himself a psychologist, but to what extent he was just writing of extremely spiritual things in a very materialistic age is an open question. There was some point when his personal experiences and stuff in his journals wasn't so well known, but they are apparently chock full of really weird paranormal stuff.

I don't think there really are purely philosophical or psychological phenomena, the whole microcosm-macrocosm thing. It's just really hard to articulate, but maybe the best I can describe it is that there are inner qualities in you that are part of larger universal patterns, and every now and then something else born of those patterns can interact with you. This can be very transformative, and it can go into many directions, including very bad ones. But also very good ones.

I had a really mysterious experience this morning that I'm not sure what to make of. I woke up, and was paralyzed, I could move, but not enough to get out of bed. My chest was filled with a sense of anxiety and my mind was uncontrollably jumping from topic to topic. I think it's important to note that I don't think it was normal sleep paralysis for a variety of reasons. I tried closing my eyes and while my mind started to ease, my heart did the opposite. As my heart sped up I felt an odd mixture of anger, excitement, and lust. Once my mind was quiet, I heard a few footsteps, the sound of a sword hitting something hard, another few footsteps, and then what sounded like something firm being hit hard with a blunt object.
The night before this, I had committed to some very serious prayer to Suwako-sama, as making my rejection of any other spirits clear. My current thought is this is a warning of some kind from Suwako, or that my rejection of the spirits had caused the faith of my prayer to have been hijacked.

>>48398366
>For me, no, it would not be worth it.
I have lived my entire life willing to throw it all away for a supernatural opportunity of a lifetime but I think I may never have because I am too open to it.

schizo thread

>>48405938
For you.

>>48405938
the best kind of thread

>>48253351
if you want to go to gensokyo, remember to set up a legend before becoming an hero

>>48404755
That is really odd for sure. All kinds of really weird stuff can start happening once you start orienting yourself towards divinity. It could be some kind of spirit fighting you back. It could be some kind of ancient memory related to either you(r ancestors) or even Suwako-sama. It could be some entirely internal phenomenon - some part of you is struggling against some other part of you and it gets manifested like that.
>>48406002
Remember to unify your huns and pos and live a heavenly life.

>>48404094
Thanks a lot for the detailed answer, Anon. I can always count on you for those morsels of secret esoteric knowledge.
>Jung would have been familiar with this concept as he provided the foreword for Richard Wilhelm's translation of The Secret of the Golden Flower
You've just reminded me of this book, which I had bookmarked the first time someone (you?) mentioned it in these threads. Unfortunately, it seems that many of the versions circulating these days are either low quality scans or AI-generated e-books without proofreading (the absolute state of Amazon...), but this specific release I found appears to look and work decently on digital:
https://files.catbox.moe/rg8x3e.pdf
Leaving the link here for those interested. Funny how "pass into fantasies" is a real expression used by the author.
>I wouldn't say that anima/animus is necessarily religious, but with Jung...he certainly considered himself a psychologist, but to what extent he was just writing of extremely spiritual things in a very materialistic age is an open question.
This is a vibe I always got from him. Even though he frequently touches on the value of science, it must still have been challenging to introduce such concepts to a Western audience, intellectual or otherwise. Good thing social media didn't exist back then.
On a similar note, what do you think about this bit from Jung's foreword?
>"Not infrequently people thought that my purpose in publishing the book was to put into the hands of the public a method of achieving happiness. In total misapprehension of all that I say in my commentary, such readers tried to imitate the ‘method’ described in the Chinese text. Let us hope that these representatives of spiritual profundity were few in number!"
Is this a "don't bother me if you suddenly have to deal with the consequences of your spiritual awakening", or something else entirely? On the surface, it seems a bit inconsistent with him doing the commentary for this odd book.

>>48408904
>Funny how "pass into fantasies" is a real expression used by the author.
I didn't know that, I have a reprinted translation of it in my native language, no such thing in my version haha.
>it must still have been challenging to introduce such concepts to a Western audience
Especially when he was basicaly living in the height of the materialism.
>On a similar note, what do you think about this bit from Jung's foreword?
Taoist cultivation practices are largely inconsistent with Western notions of things that make people happy. But beyond that, I am not sure. What does need to be said that the translation of the text is not all that great - for example, the Chinese most definitively did have a theory of mind.

It's also not really represented in proper context. These type of Taoist internal alchemy practices really require years and years of baseline work and certain level of physical and mental health. Either nothing happens or something really bad can happen. People have supposedly damaged themselves extremely badly based with misuse of these practices. Psychosis seems to be on the lighter end of potential bad outcomes, I've heard of cases of so severe neuralgia people have resorted to suicide. Some of the stories might be latter propaganda from Chinese communist administration or teachers doing some kind of "that guys method will make you puke blood, use mine instead", but I would not mess around with these things lightly.

I keep shilling for Tai Chi because those type of practices make up the preparatory work. Even if you (or I?) would ultimately not pursue any further practices, developing better overall health and mind-body co-ordination would not be wasted. Qigong is kind of the umbrella term for the mind-body excercises that build the qualities needed for further work, but some of the stuff out there is such that it needs more preparatory work to do much anything or that it's kinda sus and designed to drive extreme amounts of energy/stress hormones to give people extreme, immediate experiences. I'm not qualified to make recommendations here byond the fact that baduanjin is a very common first practice. Some (all?) Tai Chi lineages incorporate elements from other qigong practices, the one I am engaged in does and they kind of drip feed it over time.

>>48395601
Oh, someone followed my astromonical previsions. But indeed, Jupiter was absolutely epic this night! Don't miss out the Geminids Meteor Shower at the 13-14 December on the... (surprise!) Gemini constellation! And Mercury on the 25 December at sunrise in the Orphichus constellation!

And a dream story for ladies and gentlemen of /jp/ that have nothing to read tonight;
https://pastebin.com/xECJYG9W

Thread theme
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lE-cts4_3iU

I always love seeing /jp/ discussing metaphysics and theology. I have little to add because most of my self-study in those fields is dedicated to ancient philosophy (Greco-Roman, Chinese, Indian, anywhere pre-medieval realistically), Catholic theology, and Jewish theology, in roughly that order

>>48413992
>astronomical previsions
>probably some epic knight story
Yukarianon are delivering the Kino on the menu today lads!
>>48414088
Don't you worry about it, I add close to nothing expect some old /tg/ or /qst/ shit or lame hypotheses. Speaking of which, I shall ask the spirit guys if they're on for a Christmas Quest Party?

>>48253584
They're going to feed you to youkai.

>>48414088
Well, anyone can add his stone to the edifice.
>>48414279
No, this is not a epic story this time, but if you're form /tg/ some of the terms on the stories would be familiar to you.

>>48253130
Become a neoplatonist

>>48304877
Before I forget, if you do happen to go again can you take a picture or even better a video. Would love to see Yukari caught in 4k

>>48395385
>I would really like to make section for sharing people's experiences to the Archive because it helps to better demonstrate that it's not just some lonely schizo rambling. There's been some interesting developments - few people outside of 4chan managed to find it, dig out the contact information and share their own experiences.
I would love to be able to read these, with the author's permission of course.
Have you considered making a newsletter? It could be as simple as collections of e-mails and thread posts you found interesting, all the way up to community-submitted articles like deep dives into certain topics, depending on how much effort you want to put in.
This was how communities used to be organized on the old web, and before that through physical letters and magazines. It's largely a thing of the past now, so maybe it's just the thing for us.

>>48408904
>>"Not infrequently people thought that my purpose in publishing the book was to put into the hands of the public a method of achieving happiness. In total misapprehension of all that I say in my commentary, such readers tried to imitate the ‘method’ described in the Chinese text. Let us hope that these representatives of spiritual profundity were few in number!"
It seemed to me more like "This is an academic text, not a self-help guide."
I get the vibe Jung wasn't necessarily interested in awakening himself or others, but in understanding and rationalizing the idea of awakening for the sake of knowledge. I believe he even recognized this flaw in himself, this pathological obsession with reason.

>>48253130
Drink a hundred monster energy bad apple then shoot yourself at the top of Aka-san.
Or head to Penglai (Hōrai) and jump into the volcano.

>>48415562
Ah, the 2000's... You've been lucky if you had 40kb/s with that loud as fuck modem or more than 4mb/s if you had ADSL, there were good old newsletters and 4chan and Touhou wasn't know expect form the niche communities.

>>48413992
It's really annoying that it's been extremely cloudy here...can't see Jupiter at all even though it's supposedly still more visible than average.

You sure do have very vivid dreams. I had a really weird Touhou related on last night. I dreamt that I was spending time with some friends where my grandmother used to live. I 1CC'd Unconnected Marketeers, but it was some weird modded version with trollish translations. I played it one a weird Switch-like device, and it sent the highscore into this weird oekaki-leaderboard thing which was full of peoples lewd scribbles.

After that we went to this place that was a combination of a thrift shop and a cafe. It's in a place in my old home town which I think is an accounting office IRL. In that place the cafe section is called "Old (my real name)'s Place". There's this wonderful glass sculpture of Flandre in there, very unusual style, it's like a vortex of glass drops that makes her shape, no facial features, just a blank white mass. It's one of the coolest things I've ever seen in a dream. There's also another sculpture or painting of her in there. While I'm admiring it, a waitress bumps into me and I wake up.

I don't really think of Flandre, so that was weird. I prayed to Chimata-sama yesterday, so the UM bit might have been connected to it. I don't know what to make of any of that though, it was very strange.
>>48414088
Might for once drop some music since we're doing that again https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M0PXfdhQueI
>I have little to add
On the contrary I think you could have a lot to contribute. I find certain big commonalities in Ancient Mediterranean, Indian and Chinese belief systems extremely fascinating. While some Mediterranean-Indian commonalities could be explained by cultural contact and exchange and I'm really foggy on the timeline of certain concepts (did emanationist ideas come to Taoism before or after contact with Indian culture?), it's still very fascinating. Even the cultural contact side is really interesting. Few people know that there is evidence of Buddhist missionary activities around the reign of Ashoka around 260 BCE.
>>48414458
Not the worst choice.
>>48415562
>I would love to be able to read these, with the author's permission of course.
They've have agreed to write about them for the Archive and are working on it.
>Have you considered making a newsletter?
Yes I have. Unfortunately getting one running would basicaly require a server of it's own and might present GDPR issues. I suppose I could technically just ask people for their emails but even that might be some sort of a illegal registry. That said, I'm certainly open for community-submitted content and stuff that's a bit less effort-intense than cranking out 10 A4 pages of text. I think maybe making a less cryptic contact section would be a good start. I did kind of want to keep it "self-selecting" at the start but it's not reasonable to expect everyone to read 70 pages or text or to click random stuff on the page.
>but in understanding and rationalizing the idea of awakening for the sake of knowledge
He did have an interest in helping out people for sure, his particular ideas about it might just have been very peculiar. He did have this kind of "Westerners can't understand Eastern thought and take it too literally and go insane" type of take too IIRC.

Here's a really weird little factoid not related to anything. In the Shinto Norito book there is a very contextless "Hi Fu Mi No Haraekotoba" prayer. It has no translation and the instruction is just "sacred syllables to be chanted while tuning the vibration of your voice to the divine". The first four syllables are "hi fu mi yo" and I thought there was something really familiar about it. Is it just because "hi fu" is so close to "Hifuu"? No. Turns out it's in Marisa Stole the Precious Thing out of all possible sources. Why? What does it mean? I don't know.

>>48419837
hi fu mi yo is an old way to say 1 2 3 4 I think

>>48419954
Hmm, I see, that would make sense. So maybe the Hi Fu Mi No Harakotoba was like...Heian era mic check haha. For those who are curious, this is the whole thing.

Hi fu mi yo i mu na ya ko to
Mo chi ro ra ne shi ki
Ru yu i tsu wa nu so
O ta ha ku me ka u o e ni
Sa ri he te no ma su a se e ho re ke

>>48414388
>>48419837
Okay I'm drunk now, so I feel my ramblings have more effect than they probably actually do.

I've been self-studying phenomenology lately, and I recently read Buber's I And Thou. I don't know how familiar the anons in this thread are with that work, but from the little I understood, the I-it relation extends to the mundane and uninteresting, while the I-Thou relation extends from a person to the cosmic consciousness. Buber viewed the divinities as being worth gazing upon as the Thou, and moreover mundane existences as being transcending the mundane of the it by becoming the eternal Thou, by gazing upon their relational space within the grand order outlined by God.

Now this assumes a monotheistic system, but what about an order of the Thou outlined in a polytheistic system, as necessitated by Touhou?

>I contemplate a tree.
>I can accept it as a picture: a rigid pillar in a flood of light, or splashes of green traversed by the gentleness of the blue silver ground.
>I can feel it as movement: the flowing veins around the sturdy, striving core, the sucking of the roots, the breathing of Man goes over the surfaces of things and experiences them.
>He brings back from them some knowledge of their condition—an experience. He experiences what there is to things.
>But it is not experiences alone that bring the world to man.
>For what they bring to him is only a world that consists of
>It and It and It, of He and He and She and She and It.
>I experience something.
>All this is not changed by adding “inner” experiences to the“external” ones, in line with the non-eternal distinction that is born of mankind’s craving to take the edge off the mystery of
death. Inner things like external things, things among things!
>I experience something.
>And all this is not changed by adding “mysterious” experiences to “manifest” ones, self-confident in the wisdom that recognizes a secret compartment in things, reserved for the initiated, and holds the key. O mysteriousness without mystery, O piling up of information! It, it, it!

Who am I quoting, the /jp/ oldfag may ask of me? Martin Buber himself, at least as he has been translated by Water Kauffman, as can be found here on pages 8-9 of the pdf.
https://theanarchistlibrary.org/mirror/m/mb/martin-buber-i-and-thou.lt.pdf

In a polytheistic system between the myriad Shinto deities and the myriad Buddhist Boddhisatvas and the Taoist spirits, who imbues the Thou? Is it there? Does it exist?

Where does it fit in, assuming Gensokyo is a mythical land apart from the Earth we all know and love? Earlier anons had speculated Nagano Prefecture where ZUN (pbuh) had grown up, but surely this land and realm the whole of /jp/ - Otaku Culture loves and cherishes lies in the imagination of a distant Japanese man whom we may only dream of meeting and paying our respects.

Perhaps the real Gensokyo lies in our hearts. It lies in the unique sensory perception each one of us has of what Gensokyo means to us. Perhaps ZUN himself wants only that. Perhaps it's the Evan Williams talking, but on that tangent, wouldn't ZUN be proud of me, philosophizing drunk on what originated as a college project of his, across the world, 6,600 miles between his Nagano Prefecture and my Rhode Island? Let us love, let us live, and let us respect what he so gracefully ordained for us. Thank you ZUN.

I understand I raise more questions than I answer, and I apologize for that, but I am not in a sufficient state of contemplation to begin to answer these questions.

>>48421498
I forgot to post a song. Why not this one, with a true dreamer?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5gTKGiI8Alo

Chat is this real?

>>48405938
You will always be confined by the laws of reality if you insist upon anchoring yourself to it.

>>48421776
The Ideas and the Mental World are really one in the same. We apply the Ideas to experience in order to render it intelligible.

I had a flotation tank session today. I've been thinking about doing it for a while and some recent I Ching readings indicated it would be a good course of action. It was kind of a mixed bag. I had a gigantic stress surge early on and had to pop the hatch open because it started feeling unbearably hot in there. Whether it was a "real" sensation or mental, I don't know.

But after that I managed to relax and at some point I dipped into some kind of trance state and completely lost track of time. At one point I perceived myself floating in a mountain lake at night. I drifted towards the beach and I could see the pillars. It's Moriya Shrine, as seen in Touhou. Kanako-sama came up to the shore. I told her that I'm sorry I've ended up there naked. She chuckled and said that she doesn't mind it, but she snapped her fingers and I perceived myself wearing a red men's kimono, still floating in the lake. I told her that I'm extremely grateful for everything she has done and that I really want to visit the Suwa Grand Shrine. She smiled and said that she is waiting for me to go there and told me not to push myself too hard. I dipped out of the trance state and rest of the session passed very uneventfully and quickly.

So what was that all about? I don't really know. I think I will try this again some other time when I'm not in the middle of the most exhausting time of the year. The things most relevant to the I Ching stuff were processed with the stress surge, but that's too personal blogposting.
>>48421498
>the I-Touhou relation extends from a person to the cosmic consciousness
So true anon.
>In a polytheistic system between the myriad Shinto deities and the myriad Buddhist Boddhisatvas and the Taoist spirits, who imbues the Thou? Is it there? Does it exist?
Taoism has Tao, Buddhism has Dharmakaya, Shinto has kannagara. While it would be unfair to translate any of these directly as "cosmic consciousness", they all represent some higher-order divine principle in existence within these polytheistic, animistic systems. Regarding kannagara, I don't know if all Shinto sects put such emphasis and same interpretations as some. English Jinja Honcho materials don't really talk about it, the Tsubaki sect holds it as very central and it's basicaly their argument for why Shinto has universal features in their view. It's basicaly "the presence and movement of divine in everything".
>lies in the imagination of a distant Japanese man whom we may only dream of meeting and paying our respects
It's not impossible, but human imagination does not come from nothing. This might be of interest
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GHb05I6kwFQ
The history of the concept of "imagination" is quite interesting in itself...
>Perhaps the real Gensokyo lies in our hearts
Gensokyo is the friends we made in the schizo threads!
>It lies in the unique sensory perception each one of us has of what Gensokyo means to us
For all practical purposes this is very true, and as far as going there is not a trivial task, perception might be all we have. Perception might be all we have in general haha.
>wouldn't ZUN be proud of me, philosophizing drunk on what originated as a college project of his
It must be quite something else to be ZUN, to witness all the passions you have managed to raise with your creations. I wonder if there are Japanese people pondering the same themes. I have heard secondhand information pointing to that, but I don't know for sure.
>I understand I raise more questions than I answer, and I apologize for that
But you raised good questions, thanks for that.
>>48421776
/jp/ needs to figure out how to synthesize Neo-Platonism and Taoist emanationism (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiji_(philosophy)).. I'm sure we will all go to Gensokyo then.

I appreciate you frens, and i've grown to really enjoy these spontaneous threads that seem to pop up in interesting times for everyone, hopefully we're all gonna make it.

Last night, I had a dream that was vague and intriguing in equal measure. I spent New Year's Eve with my relatives in a small apartment that looked nothing like my own home. At some point, everyone else left the house to do their own thing, which might very well be the most mysterious part of the dream. All joking apart, this led to a drastic change in the atmosphere. I remained in the same room, now dimly lit with a fire pit in the middle. Some kind of ritual performed by me followed. I mostly remember holding beautiful golden robes, reminiscent of those worn by Okina Matara. At the end of the ritual, she manifested in the room and said something that I can't recall despite my best efforts. The only memory I have of her words is her tone, which exuded confidence and authority as per usual.
I don't usually think much of such blurry recollections, but context is extremely important here. I have been praying to Okina-sama daily for several months now. As it turns out, I did a little improvisation in my prayer last night, minutes before going to bed. I presented her with the evidence of the small but tangible progress I have made in four different areas of my life (physical, intellectual, professional and spiritual), thanked her for the inspiration she continuously provides me with, and declared that no matter what happens in the end, I'll be grateful to her for prompting this positive change.
The I Ching reading resulting from the above dream was one that I hadn't seen before: Hexagram 13 (T'ung Jên - Union of Forces). Heaven over fire. No changing lines. As it is customary in these cases, one should prioritize the idea represented by the hexagram as a whole (rather than the individual lines), as well as the explanation of King Wen's judgement by Confucius. It's said to symbolize relationships, progress and success, and the diviner is encouraged to embrace new ideas and work for the good of the whole. This particular interpretation of it also caught my eye:
>To receive this hexagram without changing lines is often a confirmation of your particular thought -- saying, in effect: "You've made the connection."
>>48413187
>>48415562
Thanks. Some of these techniques do seem like a double-edged sword when taken out of their original context. I mean, you can already get a very painful headache just from having an unnatural rhythm to your breathing during meditation. Plus what once worked for someone might not necessarily align with your own spiritual aspirations.

>>48257540
>>48257942
God i want her to eat me slowly

>>48421776
>philosophical discussion is ultimately pointless here
Mainstream Western philosophy is pointless in general. Plato spelled it all out over 2 thousand years ago and here we are where many still believe the materialist lies.
He was never going to be the end all be all. However he was trying to point in a general direction that would lead to actual truth.
>We can talk however long we want, smarter people then us did, we all will make some naive mistake here or there and not much will be gained.
This is the problem. It shouldn't matter how smart you are. It's not an IQ test.
Philosophy is ossified. What used to be the search for truth has been replaced by credentialism and resumes and peer reviews.
So in the end the best philosophers of the modern era will not be found in the prestigious universities or world-renowned academic or literary circles but in the filthy anonymous alleyways of online imageboards and discussion platforms.
>This subject is a matter of faith
All knowledge is based on faith. See all "philosophers" simply wave this basic truth away.
What you call reality is based on half-truths at best. 0 introspection on epistemology and perception.
Western philosophy is a wasteland. This is why anybody remotely spiritual ends up adopting terminology and ideas from the East.

What's really missing is the practices. Everybody can tell you why, but nobody can tell you HOW. So there is a world of forms, how do you reach it?
How do you reach these higher planes of reality?

>>48429737
did you reply to the wrong post?

>>48427883
I apreciate you too and I really enjoy these threads. I think we're all not only going to make it, but hit so far unknown levels of making it.
>>48428522
That's a really beatiful dream and the context and all seems really obvious. New Year's Eve is a time of change and transition. You were in a new apartement, new surrounding, new circumstances. Having something like her robes in your possessions means you have become closer to her. People you know left you alone, giving you room to do your own thing. As for not remembering exactly what she said, don't worry about it. You will probably start to understand it subconsciously over time. Very early on I asked the kami that if there is anything they want to teach to me I'm willing to learn. The next night I had a dream where I saw this incomprehensible flood of kanji. I thought to myself that it wasn't very helpful or legible, but over the next months things started clicking into place in very unexpected ways, pieces of information that felt separate lined up. Maybe something like that will happen to you too.
>Hexagram 13 (T'ung Jên - Union of Forces)
I fairly recently had a dream where this hexagram appeared out of darkness. I felt that it had something to do with some very concrete things I had in mind the night before. What was remarkable was that I had not seen this hexagram before myself, I hastily scribbled it down after I woke up. But it was the start of a sequence where I've been getting hexagrams urging for collaboration and building relationships.
>I mean, you can already get a very painful headache just from having an unnatural rhythm to your breathing during meditation
This is made worse by the fact that there are some aproaches where they teach you intentionally very intense techniques that produce extreme sensations. I don't quite know why, it might be that it's to very hastily prove that "something is happening" or it's very cynicaly about giving people who just want weird experiences weird experiences.

It doesn't even take all that much to get weird uncomfortable sensations with this stuff, as you've noted. I got a bit dizzy the first time I did the Tai Chi warmups and felt kinda weird a couple of other times. Thrice I got a 10+ minute fit of jawning from them, heh. Nothing dangerous but overdoing the breathing during them had a very real impact on me.
>>48429737
>So there is a world of forms, how do you reach it?
If you wanted to go at it from a strictly Platonic/Western POV, there's bits and pieces within the Western Esoteric Tradition. Unfortunately, it's as if someone took the Library of Alexandria, put it into a blender, took a shit, blended again, then papered over this mess with Christian and Jewish ideas and terminology. It's a mess, and that's the big reason why I find the Eastern ideas more appealing, the traditions are more coherent. But if you are willing to put your hands into the pile and really dig, there are gold nuggets there. I remember the more mystic side of Pythagoras being something people wrote and talked about. I have a book called The Golden Verses of Pythagoras which I've yet to read. Iamblichus was another name that got thrown around.

Taoism I would argue is out of the Eastern traditions the one that has something closes to the "world of forms" with it's interest in identifying and working with patterns in nature.

Ultimately I think "reaching the higher planes of reality" also depends on what are your expectations and hopes for it?

>>48429737
>How do you reach these higher planes of reality?
Skipping a few steps here. The first questions to ask are "What does it mean to 'reach' higher planes of reality?", and "Is it possible reach them?" I would like to know your thoughts on both of those. It would also do you well to ask "Why do I want to reach them?"

>>48253130
Meet ZUN and ask him to turn you into a cute anime girl

>>48433584
>"Why do I want to reach them?"
This is always a good question to ask yourself.
It's also good to keep in mind that in some ways it is much easier for them to reach us.
>>48437435
Is this the "convoluted method for sissification"?

>>48437435
Let's not underestimate those who will gladly buy a plane ticket to do it.

>>48446970
I however doubt ZUN would do such a thing

Just wanna add my two cents after skimming through the thread.
I never got the appeal of going to Gensokyo. Nothing against it, but to me it's already a great muse/pseudo-spiritual motivator in this world. A hikkiNEET like has no business there, and I wouldn't want to ruin the mystique anyhow.
Sort of like >>48343608 mentioned in not so harsh words. Though I'll admit he has a point about certain types of /jp/sies.

Letters are clay,
Which under cleansing thought-fire
Turn into bricks.
With those, I build another wall.
>>48331714
I've finished the book yesterday night. It was rather short, but very packed with information; I liked that. So, what's there to be said on Shugendō?
Let start with history. There two parts to it, the story of En no Ozunu, which serve as a spiritual background, and later creation of Shugendō as a distinct movement.
En no Gyōja was born in a family that was one of the last clans belonging to Tsuchigumo people after Japanese emperors' conquests. It was near Mount Katsuragi, Nara prefecture, during Emperor Jomei, in 634. His mother, after long prayers for a child, had a dream, during which vajra entered her mouth. Later, when En no Ozunu was born with a flower in hand, there were dōji (attendants or messengers, like Kongara is to Fudō Myōō) and other deities accompanying the birth with music and rituals. The boy was growing and acting differently from his peers, playing alone and doing stuff like making Buddha's heads out of mud or writing in Sanskrit without anyone ever teaching him that. As a teenager, he started climbing the mountains and after getting under a waterfall one day he began his ascetic practices. En no Ozunu rejected becoming a monk, continuing his mountaineer pilgrimages, but he nonetheless learned many spells from Buddhists.
He met many deities, he practiced asceticism and chanted sutras, he grew in power, performed miracles, healings and exorcisms. One of the most important of those events was in 674, on Mount Oomine, where En no Gyōja wanted to find a deity that will help with lessening suffering among people. First appeared Benzaiten, then Jizō, but both were rejected as not strict and terrifying enough. The third that appeared was Zaō Gongen, which was accepted as a strong protector of Buddhism by En no Ozuno.
He was becoming quite famous and attracting students, but En no Ozunu wasn't focused on teaching them. This turned into problem, when one of his students grew disdainful of him and later became an important political figure in imperial court. When En no Gyōja tried to built a bridge between two mountains, to make the passage safer, spirits employed by him were constantly interrupted in their task by kami Hitokotonushi. En no Ozuno bounded the kami with a spell, to stop its meddling. But the kami possessed an oracle, claiming that En no Gyōja is dangerous for the whole country and the old student quickly seized the chance to punish his old master. Soldiers sent for this task couldn't catch En no Ozunu, so they instead kidnapped his mother, after which the ascetic gave up. He was exiled to Oojima Island, but thanks to the ability of flying on a cloud, he kept moving around Japan each night, returning at dawn. After few years, an unsuccessful execution, terrible omens and prophetic dreams given to the very Emperor Mommu, En no Gyōja was pardoned. He returned, made few last rites, miniaturised his mother, when she wanted to stay with him, hopped on cloud and left Japan in 701, proclaiming that he will stay as an immortal hermit. He was seen later many times by travelers, mostly in China, but sometimes in Japan. He was even sometimes seen as being buried, before appearing somewhere else. Allegedly, those deaths and reappearances were tied to Taoist practice of shikaisen, which should be well known on this board.
There are many more details regarding En no Ozuno's deeds and meetings, but the above are the most important parts, from which you can see that his legend is mostly related to Buddhism, with Taoism's influences. Shinto aspects are very sparse, if not non-existent.

Now, the Shugendō itself. Between cult of mountains in shamanistic Shinto, before it met with Buddhism or even Taoism, then later hermits practicing in mountain ranges far from other humans, and finally with advent of esoteric Buddhism, for which mountains are important, sacred places, there were always people going to mountains for mystical purposes, looking to get closer with the divine and get mystical powers as a result. After En no Ozunu's life, those who followed his footsteps were also among mountain ascetics, becoming a popular school of thought or group.
During Insei part of Heian period cloistered emperors usually performed many mountain pilgrimages after their abdication. This practice caught up with nobility and growing warrior class as well. Mountain pilgrimage required a guide, which obviously guided through peeks, and an attendant, called oshi, which dealt with pilgrims' lodgings and religious ceremonies. Oshi were usually Buddhist monks, while guides either were either individuals tied to a particular temple, 'secular' people that were unbounded eremites or Taoists, or finally guides-ascetics, shugen sendatsu, who were Shugendō practitioners at the right level of initiation. Pilgrims were the main source of income, while after some time esoteric Buddhists dominated attendant roles and Shugendō ascetics dominated guide roles. It was only natural that those two connected with each other more.
In 1100, from hands of Emperor Shirakawa, his guide, monk Zōyo, was given Shōgoin temple, in Kioto. The temple belonged to tendai sect and as time progressed, was more and more responsible in deciding who could work as a guide to Kumano Region. Shugendō practitioners, Yamabushi, who aligned with Shōgoin and tendai sect, created honzahna, "main mountain", one of the big strands of Shugendō. The other one, tōzahna "proper mountain", came from other yamabushi, who by 15th century aligned themself with shingon sect of esoteric Buddhism.
There are differences between those two, for instance honzahna yamabushi are wearing characteristic Shugendō garments only during travels, otherwise having tendai garments, while tōzahna keep their outfits for all occasions; the most important mountain pilgrimage with 75 stations, which was originally not for secular folk, but only for those within the movement, goes in reversed order; Honzahna believes that En no Gyōja is a spiritual creator of movement and Zōyo was reformer that created rules and structure, while tōzahna believes that monk Shōbo, who was given a spiritual seal from En no Gyōja, created their strand. But despite those and other differences, both strands have more in common then less.
Shugendō practicioners are pursuing enlightenment not only in this very life, like in esoteric Buddhism, but in this very body. Mystical powers, derived from ascetic training, are not only byproduct, but in a way goal. They are later used to do good to other people, with healing and exorcisms being most common services offered to common folk. This is also why yamabushi were accepted to the point where they were often married and had quite a normal life outside mountains.
There is little to no information at all about yamabushi who weren't tied to either of big strands. During Meiji, when Shugendō was outlawed in 1872, due to being inherently syncretical, yamabushi were forced to become either secular people, or Buddhist monks. It was again allowed in 1882, but the political climate still was hostile. It was only after 1945 that Shugendō could continue properly and that in practice meant two things: first, many of teachings and rituals' details were lost; second, only the biggest schools of thought could survive such long period of suppression. Therefore to this day Shugendō is basically honzahna and tōzahna, with some variety within them, that bears no greater bearing.
"Touhou?", you may ask. And I will answer, not only this, but more, but first I need to go to sleep. I am sorry, but I can clearly see that I will meet dawn with my current tempo.

>>48452227
>to me it's already a great muse/pseudo-spiritual motivator in this world
You could climb the Mountain and Faith and drop that "pseudo".
>>48452747
>>48452775
Thanks for this. There's also this documentary by NHK which I believe I've shared before: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IWYm_fK1REc

The latent spiritual power of mountains is very interesting for sure. It really feels like every culture from any area that has mountains has legends associated with powerful - sometimes very troublesome - entities dwelling in them.

It's extremely fascinating how esoteric Buddhism has flourished to the greatest extent in mountainous countries. Tibet is of course the most well-known example, and they have really interesting lore about it. Guru Rinpoche who is seen as the one who brought Buddhism there is depicted basicaly as this wizard-like figure who brokers a deal with local mountain deities and spirits that they will serve Buddhism. However, his ritual was left incomplete before he left the mortal world, so now the Tibetan Buddhists have to do regular rituals to keep the spirits co-operative.

In China, when esoteric Buddhism flourished in there, I believe it was mostly focused on mountainous areas. Tiantai - which became Tendai when it arrived to Japan - is not only a Buddhist sect, but a mountain. And in Japan, esoteric Buddhism took mountains as their homes - Mt. Hiei for Tendai, Koyasan for Shingon.

Nagano, where ZUN was born, is extremely mountainous. The shintai at upper Suwa Grand Shrine is a mountain. The Yatsugatake mountains with their Tengu-dake ("popular day hike destination"), which are said to be the "original form of Youkai Mountain" are near Suwa.

The lore of mountains having peculiar phenomena going on in them persist to this day. Even in United States, there's quite rich mythology and testimonials surrounding places like Mt. Shashta and Brown Mountain.

Much to think about for sure.

>>48454661
I would add a correction that Tiantai has no esoteric elements and those transmitted to Tendai are from other Chinese sects. The details escape me at the moment.

Before Touhou connections, little bit more about doctrine, deities and rituals.
As I said in my previous post, in Shugendō practitioners are trying to achieve enlightenment in this very body, with supernatural powers that follow with it. It is done via practicing rituals and asceticism, with those powers later used to help other, suffering people, which also brings closer to enlightenment.
Shugendō believes that there are two planes of reality, in which all Buddhist transmigration paths are roughly contained: one for humans and other mundane creatures, and the second for supernatural, in which spirits reside. Those spirits are roughly in three categories:
1. Buddhas, Bodhisattvas, Myōō (Wisdom Kings), important Kami, which are powerful and venerated across many places;
2. Attendants of the above, local Kami, individual guardian spirits, which are of less importance then the above category, but still can be called upon;
3. Evil spirits of various kinds, which are also responsible for all sufferings in this world; interestingly, yamabushi, via proper rituals and personal power can defeat them and move them forcefully to the second category; this reminds me of Tibetan Buddhism.
The most important works for Shugendō are two mandalas. The first is Taizōkai, Womb Realm, derived from Mahāvairocana-sutra, which represents motherly attitude, as if to a child inside womb, of Dainichi Nyorai towards all people. The second is Kongōkai, Diamond Realm, derived from Vajraśekhara-sūtra, which is about Dainichi Nyorai's wisdom that cuts human imperfections like a diamond blade. Both sutras are also important, together with others, like Lotus Sutra, for instance. There are also chants and spells of various Myōō, mostly Fudō, but not only, and Taoist prayers, mostly taken from Ge Hong's "Baopu zi".
In terms of deities of reverence, the highest figure is Dainichi Nyorai, Mahāvairocana Buddha, for whom Amaterasu is supposed to be gongen (both are associated with sun). However, the main figure is rather Fudō Myōō, who doubles as Dainichi Nyorai manifestation or attendant. He comes from vedic Acalanātha, who is theorised by author, in virtue of his name ("Immovable Lord"), to be a deity of earth or mountains at the beginning of his divine career. This would make his ties with Shugendō an interesting circle in history. Fudō represents fatherly love of Dainichi Nyourai to humans, wrathfully dealings with obstacles to enlightenment on practitioners ways. He is also tied to wisdom, exorcisms, and often called during fire ceremonies (goma). The final figure that is very important for Shugendō is Zaō Gongen, who is a deity of important Mount Kimpusen and a chosen protector by En no Gyōja. It's somewhat cryptic figure. He's supposed to be a gongen, but it isn't obvious of whom (one text, "Dōkeishōnen meidoki", puts Zaō as a gongen of Siddhartha Gautama), moreover he doesn't appear to be a kami at any point, being always a Buddhist figure that was put as Kimpusen deity by En no Ozunu. He also shares much symbolism and function with Wisdom Kings, as a wrathful wielder of diamond blade in right hand and sword mudra made with his left hand.
Shugendō also revere also standard fare of esoteric Buddhism, with various manifestations of Bodhisattva Kannon, Benzaiten, Four Heavenly Kings, other Myōō like Aizen Myōō or Kujaku Myōō, and others. Yamabushi also pray to kami and take part in Shinto matsuris, but it is much less codified.

The biggest rituals are mountain pilgrimages, of the kind reserved only for yamabushi, with various routes. All of them are coupled with ascetic training during the travel, from which the most standard are suigyō (standing under cold mountain waterfalls for extend period of time), that on one hand is related to misogi and retain purification aspect of it, while also is a practice towards bringing out "inner warm"; proper fasting, which includes abstinence from meat (Shinto and Buddhism derived), from salt, from boiled meals (both derived from some older, shamanistic traditions), and abstinence from "five grains", rice, wheat, millet, barley and haricot (derived from Taoism); the final ascetic practice during travels is recitation of spells and sutras. Some of those mountain pilgrimages also include additional rituals, with jikkai shugyō, pilgrimage of ten worlds (Six Realms of transmigration paths and four holy states), having a special practice for each world, for instance. As initiates complete those inner-movement pilgrimages, they attain ranks, power and wisdom, allowing them to guide other yamabushi and secular people on mountain travels.
The other important rituals are aforementioned fire ceremonies, goma. During those practitioners stack wooden boards in gomadan, an altar that resembles a well, light them on fire, then during the burning prayers are made; votive offerings are often burned as well. Goma are held in many Hindu-derived religions, appearing also in esoteric Buddhism in Japan. However, Shugendō has a distinction of being the only one performing saitō goma. Most goma are done within a temple, with the shape of gomadan being tied to a type of prayer held during particular goma. Saitō goma are done outside of temple, with gomadan being much bigger then in any other ceremony and in circular shape. Saitō goma are often held during pilgrimages' end.
Shugendō has also distinct way of having an oracle, yorigitō. A child or teenager is chosen as a medium, cleansed in ritual manner, often under waterfall, then he puts on a blindfold and the cap usually put on Buddhist statues, sits in front of a depiction of deity and is given gohei. The crowd around brings in proper noise and the medium falls in a trance, considered hosting spirit. This spirit is asked who it is, then asked further questions regarding the matter yamabushi are interested in. Once questioning is done, gohei is taken away and the trance is interrupted via pouring cold water on medium. What is interesting, the practice is supposedly derived from En no Ozunu's treatment of Hitokotonushi. In legend they were at odds, here however the practice is beneficial to yamabushi at least. It does bring to mind many other parallels, in which opposing spirits become over time allied, if only under proper circumstances, with both Matarajin and Tengu being examples.
There are rituals taken straight from Taoism, with things like predicting an auspicious day and direction, and some exorcisms, like kuji, nine-signs ceremonies derived from from Baopu zi, in which the prayer (chinese) "lin bing dou zhe jie chen lie zai qian" is made from nine signs in order to protect from evil forces.
Shugendō practitioners take part in Shinto matsuris, supposedly with those related to Sun, Moon and Stars being the most important. During stars-related matsuri yamabushi revere the North Star and make astrological auguries.
Overall, with most other rituals, the common theme is first identifying with a deity or housing it in yourself, most often Fudō Myōō, which gives either protection from evil forces, or gives the powers of that deity to yamabushi. Thanks to identification yamabushi can get the knowledge, what spirit is exactly responsible for troubles, which then allows yamabushi to engage it and defeat it.
"... Touhou?" Yes, I know, I will get to it in the next post. But some of the above things should already give something to mull over.

Bump.

>>48458203
>>48458208
Interesting stuff for sure. I wonder where the idea of there being two separate tracks of reincarnation has come from? Turning evil spirits into benevolet ones is indeed really reminescent of Tibetan Buddhism. They probably have more than one way for this, the one I've stumbled upon is a ritual where they make a lot of discordant noise. This summons the demons, who are then somehow trapped and forced to listen to sutras untill they realize they too are part of the Buddha nature. I wonder if the yamabushi method is something like this, or more combatative, and if that "bushi" might also be a sneaky reference to them then being kind of spiritual warriors..?

If Mahavairocana really was a mountain deity at first, him ending up central to Shugendo is a) not surprising in the slightest and b) history rhyming. Zao Gongen is an interesting entity for sure, there's something funny about En no Goya rejecting two separate deities as being not scary/powerful enough before accepting Zao.

I would really love to know how the Taoist elements came to be part of Shugendo. Some kind of dissemination via Onmyodo seems like the most likely cause. I do remember there being kuji practitioners not associated with Shugendo - perhaps most notoriously the ninja, whether historicaly or mythologicaly. Reverence of North Star is likely also of Taoist origin, or at least shared with Taoism.

Interesting stuff for sure.
For those interested, here is a video about a Shugendo fire walking ritual:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2jjlhKcUVd4
Pretty intense stuff and the atmosphere is incredible even through the computer screen.

I have been planning a pilgrimmage of sorts to Japan for next year, and I might add Kumano, which has a lot of Shugendo activity, to the list. It's fairly close to Fukuoka which is already on the agenda.

>>48463755
Wish i had more to add to this conversation, threads like theses are always very interesting, though it's a bit of a transitory period for me mixed with low energy, so it's hard for me to add more to what i've said in the past few ones for now.

Next year i also wanted to visit Japan if all goes well, definitely will pay the Suwa and Nagano regions a visit for obvious reasons, already made friends online with some 2hu fans that live there.

>>48465036
I think this is pretty much a low-energy transitory perioid for everyone. Thankfully the solar new year is less than a week away. Things will start to get better soon.

I don't know anyone in Japan and I do wish I did. Going to a country that is so far away from my own both geographicaly and culturally is a bit scary. I haven't done all that much traveling in my life either.

Starting with the most straightforward thing, Kongara (or Konngara, as it is better known from HRtP). In the book I've read not much more then what you can find on Touhou wiki was said. Kongara is Fudō Myōō dōji, an attendant, together with Seitak dōji. Both of them are a part of Eight Great Attendants, Hachidai dōji, who respond to Fudō Myōō and Bodhisattva Manju. All of those dōji are originally young men, under year of 20. Rarely they are called upon in some rituals, but nothing specific is said about situations in which such invocations happen. With most prayers and spells in Shugendō going straight for Fudō Myōō, it is little wonder that much less powerful attendants aren't in limelight.
Now the thing that was the most interesting for me: Tengu. Surprisingly, nothing. At least in a direct manner. And this is despite youkai like Kitsune or Tanuki being mentioned as possible spirits that are exorcised from humans o repelled by yamabushi. There are however few things worth mentioning.
The first is once again Fudō Myōō. His depictions are obviously full of symbolism, as it is common in religious arts. His dark blue skin represents virtue of compassion, the diamond stone (by some interpretations taken as himalayas, which is then used as further proof of Acalanātha's origin as a mountain deity) he stands upon represents virtue of equanimity, and finally the wall of flames behind Fudō represent his virtue of wisdom, the most important one for a Wisdom King. This wall of flame is called in Japan as either kaenkō, 'flame's light', or karuraen, 'Garuda flame', latter stemming from the fact that Garuda birds can be seen in the flames in some of depictions. Garuda is/are being(s) that originate from Hindu mythology, in which Garuda is a bird deity and the mount of Vishnu. Later, Garuda (now plural) became a part of Buddhism, as snake-eating bird spirits fighting with snake spirits (Sanskrit 'nāga', Japanese 'ryū', which later turns to meaning 'dragon' as well). Both of them belong to Tenryūhachibu, Eight Legions of Devas and Nāgas, which are eight types of spirits that were converted by Siddhartha Gautama to Buddhism and became protectors of it, according to some Buddhist schools' cannons, including esoteric ones. Shugendō also recognises them. Sometimes there are theories that Tengu stem from Garuda, brought by Buddhists. In the floating fighters Byakuren has a move and a spellcard referencing Garuda. However, if one looks closely at various materials, Tengu (or at least Aya did you know that kanji for 'Aya' takes 3 characters for posts? my efforts at trimming character count in one of the earlier posts in this thread were for naught and Hatate) seem to be rather not in-the-known regarding Buddhism. Per DS, Spellcard 12-5, Syncretism "Manifestation of Mahavairocana":
>Huh. This is that 'manifestation theory', isn't it?
>So this is why I saw that cosplay with Amaterasu dressed up as Mahavairocana?
>I don't know much about Buddhist temples, so that really helps me out.
>Aya
>I, like, don't really get it, but it's totally bright!
>This divinity is on the same wavelength as the sun.
>So basically, it means all my photos are backlit. This god is my enemy!
>Hatate
There is also LE, and Aya's scenario in HSiFS before fighting with Okina:
>Impairments... a secret god... Oh, I remember now!
>Our ancestors, the people of impairments, split into two groups. One settled in the mountains and became Tengu.
>The other hid behind buddhas, living in human settlements.
So while this is a huge leap, I think that ZUN is not really going with "adapted Garuda" angle for Tengu for some reason.

What else there is? Tengu are often depicted with some garments that are also used by yamabushi. The whole yamabushi outfit, with each piece of it, has symbolical meaning to it. Those clothes draw from aforementioned Womb Realm and Diamond Realm mandalas. Quite a lot of this symbolism corresponds to amniotic sac and umbilical cord, which is interesting in itself. I know that in many cultures amniotic sac has a spiritual meaning. At the very least, in Slavic and Turkic folklore babies born with amniotic sac intact were considered born with magical potential. They were also often considered to have another soul in them, evil/troublesome one, that didn't leave the body after death, instead turning the corpse into ubyr/upyr/striga/wieszcz/vampyr/vrykolakas. From those stories the later vampires, as known in western Europe, were derived. I am sure there are parallels to draw here with more careful studies. But back to Tengu.
Tengu, especially in Touhou, have only a vestige of yamabushi outfit. The one thing all Tengu share with yamabushi is tokin cap. In Shugendō, that cap is always black and put rather on forehead then on the top of head. The base is circular, with higher parts being twelve triangles put in a sort of flat pyramid. Tied to Buddha Dainichi Nyorai, twelve triangles represent the twelve-linked chain of causation. Six of those triangles on left also refer to unenlightened beings still in samsara, while six on right refer to enlightened beings, together symbolising unity of sacred and profane, of those on path to Buddha-hood and those that are not. Yamabushi wear tokin as a way to protect their minds from influence of evil spirits. For some it could remind of phylacteries, I guess. Tengu' tokin caps aren't close in design or method of wearing however, as one could see.
Some Tengu (not Hatate, but Aya and Momiji from time to time and Megumu in all her appearances) have those fluffy pompoms. Those are also part of yamabushi outfit, although they aren't attached to tokin, shirt or cape. Instead, those pompoms, called fusa, are part of yuigesa or fudōgesa, ceremonial sash. Yuigesa in itself has various interpretations: for some it ties yamabushi wearing it with sacred, especially Fudō Myōō (from which alternative name is derived), others say it represents umbilical cord with which En no Ozunu tied his miniaturised mother to his arm, finally some say it is apotropaic, hardened amniotic sac protecting yamabushi from misfortune. There is further symbolism regarding the shape and length of that sash, but as it doesn't appear on any Tengu, I'll skip it for now. Back to pompoms, their color represent the rank of yamabushi. There are differences between honzhana and tōzahna in their use, and nowadays there are multiple different colors used, but traditionally, at least in honzhana school adepts wore black fusa, symbolising six transmigration paths, while those that could be guides for pilgrims wore white fusa, symbolising six virtues of Bodhisattva. Tengu also wear white, which is not without some merit: in the Grimoire of Marisa, there is a following comment on Aya's Crossroad Sign "Crossroads of Heaven", which on hard turns into Blockade Sign "Advent of the Divine Grandson", directly referencing Kojiki's fragment:
>This danmaku has a pretty strong "dead end" vibe to it, but if you look closely, there's a path right in the middle. Guiding people is part of a tengu's duty, so that's pretty fitting.
On many occasions ZUN puts a connection between Tengu and Sarutahiko, calling that kami as Tengu's god even, according to SoPM article on Seiga and Christmas. Sarutahiko's most well-known deed is when he met Ninigi's (Amaterasu's grandson and progenitor of Japanese emperors) procession descending on earth and after talk with Ame no Ozume he became the mountain guide for the heavenly kami. I think Marisa's comment stem mostly from folklore, but this link with both Shinto mythology and with Shugendō is certainly interesting. Once again, one has to wonder how much of obscure lore ZUN actually knows.
Yamabushi has much more clothes then this, however it is hard to say whether any other piece is used or not. Apparently Shugendō is open for women nowadays and from the text it's unclear if it was open for them in the past or not. Women are not permitted to enter Mount Ōmine, which is a part of the most important pilgrimage in Shugendō, due to taboo of blood, but there were no further mentions of any distinctions. If they have somewhat differently shaped garments, I can't tell. If not, then the above exhausts this line of similarities between Shugendō and Tengu in Touhou.

Finally, there is a cryptic line cryptic lines in common scholary literature! who would have thought! in the text, which I'll post translated:
>The yamabushi themself, in common folk' opinion, are half-monks, half-lay men, and, like goblins or demons (akuma), liminal beings (kyōkaitekinasonzai) of half-humane, half-divine nature.
I cannot be sure, since there is no annotation, unlike with further terms, but those 'goblins' are probably the only mention of Tengu in the whole book. The author sources this claim to Miyake H. "Shugendō, sono rekishi to shugen", 2001, but doesn't dwell on it much. I know that only later in this century authors, at least in my country, went from 'goblins' to 'Tengu', but it still might refer to some other creatures. But, consider again Aya's quote from HSiFS to Okina about Tengu, how they came from "ancestors... that split into two groups." There are Tengu origins based off Buddhist monks falling from path to enlightenment that I've mentioned in thee previous thread, but this origin is unlikely used by ZUN due to the same reason as Garuda. I currently don't know about any other folk origins of Tengu that would position them as 'half-humane', but maybe there is something out there?
That would wrap up Tengu in Touhou and Shugendō. Not much, ultimately. So is Shugendō unused by ZUN? Well, there is another thing elsewhere in Touhou, which could be worthwhile to consider. But that in the next post, together with some additional answers.

>>48466244
>Why are the Kami, Kongō Dōji (vajra youth), and Tengu so important?
As part of our training in the mountains, we are told to bring the Dharma to numerous unseen beings that reside in the world and realms around us. This can include Kami, heavenly and earthly gods commonly associated with Shinto. Kongō Dōji (Vajra youth) which are ascetic Buddhist deities who practice and train in the mountains who vow to protect meritorious practitioners. Finally the most associated with Shugendō the Tengu. These beings embody the path of compassion and wisdom central to Shugendō. As guardians of sacred mountains, Tengu protect and more importantly as strict and proud beings, test those who seek enlightenment through ascetic practices. They, like role models, are enigmatic of the esoteric knowledge and supernatural power that Shugenja aspire to attain to create Pure Lands and ease the suffering of all beings, while also serving as mindful reminders of overcoming the ego, the main obstacle for these proud but accomplished beings. Additionally, Tengu are seen as intermediaries between the human and divine realms of the Kami, Devas, and Enlightened Beings.
http://ishizuchisan-shingon.org/faq/

Thank you for the very detailed effort posts

>>48466240
>>48466244
>>48466252
You've really gone above and beyond with all these posts. Really interesting stuff!

The history and origins of the Tengu are really convoluted. The name itself is from Tian Gou, "Heavenly Dog", which is a type of Chinese spirit entity associated with shooting stars. (Recall Megumu's spellcards here...) Garuda giving some of characteristics to Tengu is really interesting and it would kind of make sense, but I have also read that the Tian Gou became conflated with various native air/mountain spirits and became the Tengu.

The whole thing about "people of impairments" splitting into the Tengu and people who took refuge in Buddhist temples is really fascinating but I don't know what is the exacty source for it.


>This divinity is on the same wavelength as the sun.
Is enormously fascinating considering how much ZUN uses all kinds of wave and sound related metaphors.

It's interesting how much symbol the yamabushi have packed into their outfits. Regarding the color, it should be said that in Japan the color white is associated with death. Some of the videos on yamabushi have underlined this "death and rebirth" quality to their activities. Dewasanzan in particular appears to be associated with spirits of the death on their journey to rebirth, but I do remember reading about wider Japanese beliefs about ancestral spirits going to the mountains to become kami.

There are indeed women shugenja, there are quite a number of them in that fire walking ritual I posted. There might be some regional variation in this, there's a relatively new video which says that the shungendo sect in Yamagata doesn't accept women in their journeys - but this too might have changed.

About Sarutahiko Ookami, a possibly noteworthy tangent is that the Tsubaki Grand Shrine is dedicated to him and his wife, Ame no Uzume no Mikoto. People associated with this shrines have published materials arguing for universal features of Shinto, and published Shinto norito and kind of...more universalized forms of practice aimed for non-Japanese both books which I happen to own. This might be getting to the "schizokino" territory, but there was a point in Japanese history when the Tengu were used as a stand-in for Westerners. So if Sarutahiko Okami is the kami of Tengu too, he would also be...the kami of...Westerners. I have no idea which direction this self-fulfilling prophecy flows.

As for Shugendo being unused by ZUN...maybe he thinks it hasn't yet passed into fantasy.

It might be of interest that the shugendo community in Yamagata apparently has at least one native English speaking member and that they are open to teaching non-Japanese visitors.
>>48468344
I think it's pretty interesting that the Tengu are seen to be intermediaries between the humand and divine realms. While not all Tengu have raven-like characteristics, some do, and ravens are considered to have a connection to the spirit world in many cultures. The way they see Tengu both as protectors, guardians and kind of mentors while being also need of help to overcome their ego is really fascinating and very...mature?

Do you read your own posts out loud?

>>48473220
why would they do that when the Voices read their posts out loud

>>48473220
not them but I do so I can check for spelling and punctuation

>>48256841
Will this really kill me? I've wanted a way out for a long time and it sounds so simple.

And that other place is the nine-tailed shikigami, Yakumo Ran. It's never said directly and I doubt that ZUN will ever state this outright, but there is something strange going on when one looks at Ran's spellcards. Consider for a moment that Shugendō draws first and foremost from esoteric Buddhism, then from Taoism and Shinto, finally adding some things unique to it.
Ran is a shikigami and has her own in Chen, using her as a spellcard in Shikigami "Chen". Shikigami are from Onmyōdō, which is mostly derived from Taoism.
In Shikigami "Senko Thoughtful Meditation", Shiki Brilliance "Kitsune-Tanuki Youkai Laser" and "Kokkuri-san's Contract" there are more or less overt references to kitsune, which isn't surprising by any means considering that Ran is one of them, but through this a link with Shinto Inari can be made. While tenuous at first, consulting the Grimoire of Marisa returns such comment regarding "Kokkuri-san's Contract":
>I had her tell me who Kokkuri-san was afterwards.
>It's a fox spirit, apparently, but it gets all full of itself and starts pretending to be Inari-san when humans call upon it. But it's a pretty mischievous spirit, so as soon as it gets bored, it amuses itself by frightening the humans instead.
Additionally, Inari is mentioned in the book I've read as one of the kami that Shugendō goma rituals are sometimes made to.
Many Ran's spellcards are referencing Buddhism. Shikigami "Banquet of the Twelve General Gods" refers to twelve protectors of Medicine Buddha. Shiki Shot "Ultimate Buddhist" speaks for itself, both in name and usage of manji. Odaishi-sama from Esoteric Sign "Odaishi-sama's Secret Key" is one of Kukai's titles, monk who introduced shingon school of esoteric Buddhism. Shikigami "Channeling Dakiniten" is referencing deity who is both tied with Inari and Iizuna-Gongen. The latter appears directly in Illusion God "Descent of Iizuna-Gongen". For those, to whom this looks familiar, but they can't put their finger on why, Iizunamaru Megumu is Iizuna-Gongen. This gongen of Jizō is also revered by some Shugendō practitioners.
And this brings me to three last spellcards. Superhuman "Soaring En no Ozunu" mentions Shugendō's spiritual progenitor explicitly, with a comment from tGoM:
>A technique that dramatically raises one's physical capabilities, it seems. Has a very "now this is a youkai!" feel to it.
>En no Ozunu was a magician from a very, very long time ago. An ancient senior of mine.
>They say he could fly through the sky and used a bunch of different slaves. This Spell Card of Ran's is made in his image, she says; it's not actually summoning the guy. So she can boost her physical capabilities just by picturing him? Bah, friggin' youkai.
While En no Ozunu became a folk hero and he is important beyond Shugendō, there are few interesting things to consider. Remember how in >>48458208 I said that:
>Overall, with most other rituals, the common theme is first identifying with a deity or housing it in yourself, most often Fudō Myōō, which gives either protection from evil forces, or gives the powers of that deity to yamabushi.
'By picturing him' could work as 'identifying with'. Furthermore, aforementioned "Channeling Dakiniten" also would work as such, or perhaps as 'housing it in yourself'. Perhaps as a side note, both spellcards have Ran being quite mobile.
Then there is Shikigami "Protection of Zenki and Goki", which in some stories refers to two of many Abe no Seimei's shikigami, but just as often refers to two oni En no Ozunu bound in mountains, when they've caused too much trouble to travelers. Later En no Gyōja cleaned them and made them his servants to gather water and wood. Zenki is a red, male oni, often shown with an axe in hand and mouth in 'un' syllable. Goki is a blue, female oni with water jug and mouth in 'a' syllable. When En no Ozunu was leaving Japan, he told both oni that they can't go with him. Instead, he ordered them to protect pilgrims to Mount Ōmine. Both oni had children later, Zenki's were serving yamabushi in Yoshino, while Goki's children were housing pilgrims on Zenkizan, smaller mount in Kumano and one of the stations of the okugake shugyō, the most important Shugendō pilgrimage with 75 stations. At the time of writing the book (2006) there was still one branch of Goki's descendants housing pilgrims there, Gokisuke.

Finally, there is Ascetic Sign "Eighty Million Goma Boards". I've mentioned in >>48458208 that goma rituals are not only in Shugendō, but the great saitō goma are found only in this movement. The shape of altar in saitō goma is circular and they are performed outside of temple. The pic attached is this spellcard from StB. It couldn't be a full circle for gameplay reasons, but if talismans are taken as boards, then it is much closer to circle then any other shape used for other types of goma. Moreover, Aya's comment:
>She appeared to be training, so I took some pictures. Of course, I didn't bother her. I was only taking photos, after all.
and the stage taking place in Hakugyokurou's garden would point to the whole thing taking place outside.
Ran being Shugendō practitioner would, in my opinion, be a quite reasonable explanation of both her Buddhism-Taoism-Shinto syncretism and for some spellcards bearing heavy ties to the ascetic movement itself. She doesn't wear yamabushi outfit, but in honzahna school for instance those garments are used only during mountain pilgrimages, so there may have been other traditions that similarly didn't wear those all the time. Considering how only honzahna and tōzahna schools survived 1872-1945 period, perhaps there were some others, that have silently passed into fantasy? Or maybe it goes even further back, before 12th century in which Shugendō had reforms made by esoteric Buddhists? Back when it was much less structured, with the draw towards mountain asceticism being stories about powerful mystic, En no Ozunu? Who knows? The biggest problem is that Shugendō doesn't use shikigami or anything close to it, unless the general "beat spirit to make it beneficial to humans" would count. But with Ran being picked up after all those years, maybe there will be more clues to make this theory sound.
>>48463755
>I wonder if the yamabushi method is something like this, or more combatative
It's hard to say. Yamabushi are allegedly performing genkurabe, magical duels during which their supernatural powers derived from training and from identifying with deity are used. Are those duels with evil spirits, or more like sparring between yamabushi, it isn't said. I think that looking more into magical duels that Abe no Seimei had with other onmyōji could provide some insight in this regard. I think I should try to find what connections between Onmyōdō and Shugendō could be there anyway, in light of my theory about Ran.
>and if that "bushi" might also be a sneaky reference to them then being kind of spiritual warriors..?
Different kanji, 山伏 for 'yamabushi', while 武士 for 'bushi'. So I wouldn't count on this one.
>If Mahavairocana really was a mountain deity at first
While Fudō Myōō is a manifestation of Mahavairocana in Buddhism, it was only him, not Mahavairocana, that started as mountain deity according to author. Gongens and syncretism always muddle water in what exactly spirit is and what is not.
> I might add Kumano
Could be a reasonable choice. Allegedly Shugendō schools are offering to tourists trips and sights of rituals that were once strictly esoteric for movement, so that's something to keep an eye for.
>>48468344
Nice. I also found a different site: http://www.shugendo.fr/en during cross-referencing yamabushi garments' look, as the book had little pictures and mostly descriptions. I still hadn't time to delve into that site, but I'm planning on it.
>>48472839
>Regarding the color, it should be said that in Japan the color white is associated with death.
There is also suzukake, which is outer cloth that consists of lower part for legs and upper for torso. Suzukake is in intense, light orange color, which represents staying in mother's womb before suffering is known, also tied with Womb Realm mandala.
>wider Japanese beliefs about ancestral spirits going to the mountains to become kami
The book actually mentions this belief. After a period of time (33 years are mentioned) a dead spirit is cleansed enough and moves from Yomi upwards, with kami from normal humans reaching highest peaks and emperor line returning to Takamagahara, with them being descendants of amatsukami. Some yamabushi believed, mirroring "enlightenment in this body" from Buddhist side of things, that an exceptional person can skip this waiting period, if one dies in battle or goes through a rigorous ascetic training.
>>48473220
I apologise if my grammar isn't up to your standards, Anon. I hope one day to improve in this regard as well.

>>48474699
>The biggest problem is that Shugendō doesn't use shikigami
Not refuting any of your points, just pointing something out.
I'd imagine a Youkai could be a practitioner and master many disciplines over their long lives, dabbling in other things and not necessarily sticking to one school of thought over another. Ran could be a master of Onmyoudou specializing in Shikigami while practicing Shugendou, possibly syncretizing both and more into her own unique style refined over the centuries.

There's also purpose to consider. Ran's purpose is to serve Yukari, I doubt she's using any of these for worship or enlightenment. Learning more disciplines means more tools and weapons to serve her master with. Being a Youkai, it could be a perversion of those practices just to suit her purpose, though I heavily doubt she'd take shortcuts like that given her character; she's very by the book and poor innovation was a problem of hers Yukari talked upon. Learning the whole thing rather than just taking what's useful would come to be her benefit in the end since it meant more material and inspiration for Spell Cards.

This is probably just a coincidental thing because of game development reasons, but the interesting thing about Ran's Spell Card's is that many are based on Yukari's in form, they function very similarly and share visual motifs. Like Evil Spirits "Bewitching Butterfly Living in the Zen Temple" is just Ultimate Buddhist but with more shit being thrown at you and butterflies instead of plain danmaku. The main difference being the naming scheme as Yukari's is all about boundaries, though in the previous example it's literal butterflies living in the temple (manji) and it's specifically a Zen Buddhist temple. This is obviously only for PCB since afterwards they are their own things.

>>48474691
>>48474699
You've really put a lot of effort into all of this! Thanks so much.

When it comes to particular practices, I do wonder how much exchange there was between Onmyodo and Shugendo. I would assume that anything explicitly Buddhist would have come from, well, Buddhism. Then again, even by the time Buddhism spread into China, there was this process of Buddhists and Taoists just kind of taking the best bits from each other's practices and ideas... Goma is totally of Buddhist origin at least.
>Yamabushi are allegedly performing genkurabe, magical duels
DANMAKU IS REAL
>Are those duels with evil spirits, or more like sparring between yamabushi, it isn't said
That does seem kind of an important detail to gloss over.
>Different kanji, 山伏 for 'yamabushi', while 武士 for 'bushi'. So I wouldn't count on this one.
I wouldn't either, but with Japanese and how they play around with the homophones of the language you never know...
>Allegedly Shugendō schools are offering to tourists trips and sights of rituals that were once strictly esoteric for movement, so that's something to keep an eye for
That does appear to be the case. I think it could be extremely insightful. I'm after all interested in Shinto, Buddhism and Taoism and becoming more (spiritually) connected to nature. The last bit can of course be done right here where I live, but sadly the way to do so has largerly been lost. Modern "neopaganism" seems to be mostly about various flavors of identity politics... I think I could have much to learn from people who have managed to keep and cultivate that connection for over a thousand years.

For those curious, there also appears to be a documentary about shungedo:
https://vimeo.com/ondemand/shugendonow
>>48475111
There's an extremely long history in Asia of just grabbing whatever bits and pieces from Buddhism, Taoism and so on for folk magic without being very...tied down by any particular theology or moral system. There's widespread beliefs that the Buddhist sutras in themself have kind of magical power to them, so some people use them for purposes that have very little to do with the stated aims of Buddhism. So there is a precedent for Ran just making use of whatever cool magical stuff she has managed to get her hands on.

It would be kind of funny if she was secretly a devout Buddhist though, trying earnestly achieve enlightenment because she believes that such would liberate her from her servitude. But that's just fanfic territory.

Do you happen to know what is the origin of that Bewitching Butterly spellcard?

>>48480312
>Do you happen to know what is the origin of that Bewitching Butterly spellcard?
Not sure if this is the answer you're looking for, but if I remember my ZUN lore right he designed Ran's spellcards first, then made Yukari's based on that. So the origin is Ultimate Buddhist, but recontextualized for Yukari.

>>48480663
I guess I should have specified: the mythological origin.

Bump

For what it's worth, there is Shugendo activity in ZUN's native Nagano, centered around Mt. Iizuna of Megumu...I mean, Iizuna Gongen fame, and a place called Kosuge. Not much information about it all on the net, but apparently they do organize some kind of tours there:
https://www.go-nagano.net/en/trip-idea/yamabushi-experience-tour-at-kosuge-shrine

About Mt. Iizuna, beyond the Iizuna-gongen stuff, there are more folk religion type of beliefs about a powerful, yet apparently benevolent tengu dwelling the mountain. Once upon a time it's said he helped locals by bringing "tengu's barley rice" from the mountains. It's apparently some kind of fungus not armpit-flavored onigiri as some fan art would have you think that was thought to be extinct but rediscovered in 2017.
https://www.expeditionchicken.com/hiking-mt-iizuna-a-voyage-into-tengu-land/

Very tangential, but another sacred place to Shugendo is called Mt. Haku. I don't really know much about the Hourai girls lore, but apparently one of them is called the Mt. Haku girl by fans.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Haku

Another possible connection is of course miss Hakurei herself with her yin-yang orbs and magical talismans and whatnot. Yin-Yang is of obvious Taoist origin, and it's possible that the fulu talismans of China influenced the ofuda of Shinto.

I am planning to burn some letters that I previously meditated on for the New Year. Handwritten on rice paper, for added significance. There's much to say formally and this feels like the best way.
Does anyone else have any similar plans in mind?

>>48493694
I got the kamidana I ordered and I will be putting it into use on the 21st, which is winter solstice ie. Solar New Year. I will thank the kami for the year that has passed and ask for their blessing for the coming year. On the 31st I will conduct my first yarrow stalk I Ching reading to see what the coming Western calendar year will bring. On the Lunar New Year (29th of January if I'm correct) I will burn the old "ofuda" and make new ones.

I have no idea how the people who occasionally visit me will take the appearance of a mysterious tiny wooden building or how I will explain it to them. At least I still have two days to think about that.

>>48493721
>I have no idea how the people who occasionally visit me will take the appearance of a mysterious tiny wooden building or how I will explain it to them.
It's a… birdhouse… for very important birds.

Do you have any information on your kami? It would be convenient if it was Yatagarasu related.

>>48493721
"Ah, *that*? Just a little something from a videogame. Don't worry about it."

>>48493721
That’s really cool Anon, hope you can show us pictures later when it arrives!

>>48499015
Oh i misread it, you already have it, but still, do share it with the class if you feel like it.

>>48493694
I plan on making my ofuda on the 1st, getting some nice materials for it on the meantime.

>>48493933
None of them are connected to Yatagarasu, unless you go strictly by Touhou canon, as Kanako-sama somehow gave the power Yatagarasu to Okuu.
>>48496844
I suspect they know something is up but are just too awkward to ask haha.
>>48499015
>>48499056
Sure, I will post pictures tomorrow.
By the way, are you the anon who wrote this?
https://0bin DOT net/paste/pSjKi4L9#946P15NdLPJQ3v-046sFWo4LpYyLAliCMIJRY4bug+m
Would it be ok to publish this on the Archive? I'm making an update tomorrow where I'm sharing the experiences of some people who have reached out and shared theirs.

On a related note, would the anon who wrote the effort posts about Shugendo like to have them also be published at the archive? If you want to be attributed with some pseudonym that's fine. I think your effort deserves to be remembered.

I don't know if the Mt. Haku Girl stuff is just fanon or canon or implied canon, but if the Hakurei shrine maidens really trained at Mt. Haku it's noteworthy because it's a shugendo holy site. Since there appears to be an idea of creating particularly spiritualy charged lands in Japanese culture, Gensokyo seems like an extension of this idea. The Shugendo - at least by some interpretation - are trying to create Pure Lands on Earth. Isn't Gensokyo a kind of a Youkai paradise, "pure land"?

>>48501588
That I am! Feel free to publish it

Bump because I want to know when anon updates his site.

Ditto, I’ve been super overworked and busy lately, so I don’t have the brain power to really add much to these threads, but they’re still very nice to lurk in, I also wonder if OP is still here with us, considering his thread was somewhat hijacked, and theses tend to pop up somewhat randomly if the soil is fertile.

Here's a picture of the kamidana as promised. I'm still lacking something to substitute for the sakaki leaves. The weird small clay hut is their old house. The snake is a new fortunate addition that I stumbled upon today. Apparently it's associated with Benzaiten, which I only learned from the booklet I that came with it. I have absolutely nothing against her, but I hope she doesn't mind mingling with the others...
>>48501975
Thanks! I hope you are happy with the page name I chose from a phrase you used to describe the peak experience:
https://archive-of-the-sealed-gods.neocities.org/kicking_down_the_shrine_door
>>48506958
Sorry to keep you waiting. The site has been now updated.
https://archive-of-the-sealed-gods.neocities.org/

Of particular interest might be this testimony from a person who "caught it" through exposure to the Archive.
https://archive-of-the-sealed-gods.neocities.org/thaumaturgical_answer
I particulary apreciated how honest he was about how...confused his initial impression of the Archive was, haha. Kanako-sama sure appears to be highly responsive to prayers.
>>48507441
Not having the energy to do much sure seems to be going around. Thankfully the spring will slowly start arriving.

I really hope OP is doing better.

The best thread on /jp/!

>>48507841
Oooh that is really nice one!
And for sure, that is quite an appropriate title lol

Some anons are about to live up their own adventures as well.

>>48508076
I'm very satisfied with it myself too! But I think it's really cool how you were able to find an antique one and put it back to proper use.

Glad you enjoyed the chosen title.
>>48508107
What do you mean by that?

>>48510891
I mean than some are close to being spirited away.

>>48512181
Oh, haha, imagine if that's the reason why some of the regulars have been absent...haha...

>>48507441
I'm still here, lurking. I'm happy that people are having in-depth discussions with each other, as well as sharing their personal experiences. I'm still tired too and things in general keep getting worse, but I hope it will stop.

>>48518036
Hoping things will improve for you, OP! And considering this thread seems to be in the twilight state, I’m wishing all the anons here happy holidays and new years!

I like this thread, I have been reading it for a while but I still do not get the idea of what exactly is the point. Can someone make for me a summary please?

>>48520472
A very brief explanation of it is that there have been ocasional spontaneous threads here that talk about the more esoteric / “real” side of touhou, and sometimes those discussions hijack threads if the original subject is “close enough”, the point is to explore and enjoy that side that isn’t seen too often, as it gives greater depth and meaning to the series

>>48520472
The point is how to get to Gensokyo

>>48520637
Honestly, all these threads have me thinking that it may be true that Gensokyo exist and this whole franchise is a twisted plan for something weird...

>>48520883
At this point I’m convinced 2hu is very real, though in it’s own way

>>48521089
Can you explain what way you think it is? If you do, I want to tell you mine.

>>48521183
My impression that it exists in a similar sense a very vivid dream does, in a type of.. “adjacent” space, you can live an entire lifetime in one (It sure feels that way!) and while you are in it, it might as well be real, it still happened somewhere somehow.

My impression is that gensokyo (and touhou in general) exists in a similar type of space, it both exists and it doesn’t depending of how you approach it, though most of us that wish to actually see it probably don’t match the criteria that we are aware of, but..if you want something badly enough, you become somewhat more attuned to it, and in a way or another, you’ll get more of it.

Though the Gods / Kami there are genuinely real and you can actually interact with them if you want a taste.
(Since they're basically cosplaying in a sense)

>>48521339
I like your impression, let me tell you mine. And please, forgive me, it is a bit conspiracionist, and it is because I want to make a story around the concept.

Basically, Gensokyo exist, in a literal way. The barrier is actually one that works quite similar to other ones I have heard about that are around places that have been lost to time, but it also works as a booster, rather than sending them straight to another dimension. Basically, it is real and you can even visit them.

Yukari has control upon some of the Japanese government cell, and maybe, she is a youkai from the outside world which keeps a second life there as the wife/companion, etc, of a important Japanese politician that maybe known by the common folk or be a deep state-like guy.

The reason of this, is to keep food flowing, Japan continues creating suicidal people and the youkai continue eating them. And, also, the place where Gensokyo is located at is highly touristic or has enough visitors to keep youkai hunting them.

>>48521394
What you see is what you get, didn’t in Hifuu they ended up in a gensokyo with a very hostile SDM for example, and that gensokyo is just one of many possible ones

>>48521457
>What you see is what you get
For much that a meme answer this is, does that mean that if I imagine them all as adorable, do they become that??

>>48521505
Honestly, pretty much

>>48521510
SO I CAN TURN THEM INTO NAZIS??

>>48521510
This is weird if we see it this way, because that pretty much sounds like a personal heaven. If someone imagines it as adorable then it will be. Maybe, what if, Gensokyo is actually heaven or some sort of paradise?

>>48521505
>>48521523
>>48521538
Unfortunately that doesn't work like that, unless you're highly psychically potent. Or you have a lot of people believing in that, I'm afraid.

>>48521538
Pseudo paradise full of horrors with really good PR

>>48521604
Well my nigga. If it is based on what people think of it, then we have two scenarios:

1. It is a canon-based version with slight changes
2. it is a sex-crazed madness due to the unholy amounts of porn

>>48521621
Or 3: Neither of the above.

>>48521654
I always imagined Gensokyo as a neutral land. I mean, sex exist but not in a crazy way. The thing that I would be asking thought is what exactly the characters do when they are frustrated.

>>48521672
Of course sex exist. But what they'll do if frustrated is hard to predict, unless they're rabbits.

>>48521702
>Of course sex exist.
Do you think that, like that. The characters may be from straight to bisexual? I know is a stupid question and I am sorry if its annoying but I always wondered it, because some characters (Like remilia and sakuya) always looked to me like they could be a bit bisexual with each other.

>>48521727
I don't think vampires even have a sex drive since they're immortals or would have sex with a human like a human would have sex with their dog.

>>48518036
It's nice to hear you are still around and I hope things will get better for you. I can pray for you, if you would like that.
>>48520472
The spirits of Gensokyo are real.
>>48519934
Happy holidays and new year to you too.
>>48520883
Why would it have to be a "twisted" plan? What would that "weird" be?
>>48521339
Have you shared this before somewhere? Feels familiar. Something existing/not existing reminds me of the Buddhist ideas of things having a relative and absolute reality, the latter for them of course being the "emptiness" (no fundamental separation or categorization, just endless interdependence) of things.
>Though the Gods / Kami there are genuinely real and you can actually interact with them if you want a taste.
Yeah the reason why I don't believe in 100% subjective or malleable Gensokyo is my own experiences with them. They are very real and very much have a mind of their own. I find that one anon's experience of having this "how on Earth did you end up here" really relatable, though as my own experience was more gradual it was more like "that guy can see us? He can REALLY see us? What on Earth does he want from us". That mutual sense of confusion and disbelief is really funny in retrospect. It was also really funny how the one thing about me that bothered them was the most East Asian thing possible ie. lack of filial piety.
>>48521394
>the place where Gensokyo is located at is highly touristic
Like a, say, "popular day hike destination", haha...
>>48521672
Spirit sex appears to be a thing (I don't know if they do it with each other, and what it even means), but I don't think it has anything to do with biology-derived needs like hormonal frustration.

>>48521825
> Have you shared this before somewhere? Feels familiar

I’m pretty sure I’ve said something along those lines on one of the past threads, perhaps that is why

>>48521825
>but I don't think it has anything to do with biology-derived needs like hormonal frustration.
This applies to Youkai characters but humans?

>Spirit sex appears to be a thing
Ghost sex... Out of joking, do you think it is had like any other sex?

>>48521866
Right. I do think your logic is sound. I at least think there is *some* element of projection when it comes to perceiving Gensokyo, but that's because all human perception has a lot of projection in it. I also think that interactions with the spirit world have this kind of dream-like quality most of the time, including this way how your brain tries to patch over the experiences and it starts to feel really "unreal" when time passes.
>>48521871
>This applies to Youkai characters but humans?
Well, I suppose so if you were to interpret Gensokyo as a literal hidden valley with flesh and blood humans in there.
>do you think it is had like any other sex?
There's a lot of lore about spirit sex IRL and no, it's nothing like sex between humans. The experiences are...about as diverse as the spirits involved. There's the succgen threads on /x/. They're pretty instructional about what a lot of the sex entities are like, and also what becomes of the people involved with them. If one is aware of the lore about how certain spirits want to wiggle into humans to get the human experience, then the way how many of the succgen regulars want to BE the succubus looks kinda concerning. Stuff like this is why you shouldn't go dick first into matters of the spirit world.

There's also testimonies of people having intimate encounters with deities. The one I remember best is this one guy's story who was involved in a 100 day ritual dedicated to Kali. Somewhere towards the end she returned the favor. He described it like being electrocuted to death (but somehow good?), a completely overwhelming surge of energy that ended with him having an out of body experience. It apparently completely changed the trajectory of his life. I don't know if all of them are as rough as Kali can be, though.

>>48522021
>There's also testimonies of people having intimate encounters with deities.
This is a weird thing, can you tell me more? About the entire thing that you are saying, I am really curious about how having sex with a God could be this Good somehow.

>>48522021
> The experiences are...about as diverse as the spirits involved

Last time I mentioned a really strong experience which was..a sort of botched Kundalini with Kanako, where it was almost as if someone forcefully grabbed me, straightened my back and then it was as if I shoved a fork into a light socket, a quite painful fire that shot upwards in my spine but couldn’t go all the way, and after a bit of this, they let me go because it was clearly not working and I was left very exhausted afterwards.
Not sure if that counts, but it feels relevant to the topic here

>>48522021
The thing is, are these sexual encounters with them like that because it is not physical? I mean, you are not directly present with them. In difference, in Gensokyo you would be next to them.

>>48522390
It seems we have a constant: it feels like electricity.

>>48522157
I'm not an expert on the subject, but if you want to go through something maybe a bit more reputable than /succgen/ (some of their book recommendations might be worth checking out) there's this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6mMEfIJiPfo
IIRC they flash occasionally covers of some books related to the topic on it. The guy who had the experience with Kali is Jeffrey Kripal, that channel has done multiple interviews with him. I don't remember which was the one where he talked about it.
>I am really curious about how having sex with a God could be this Good somehow
They're immensively powerful. I don't think "sex" is necessarily even the right word, it's just some kind of process that interfaces with you through sexuality because it's such a powerful human drive, desire and energy.
>>48522390
Yeah that does sounds like a kundalini type of thing. From accounts I've read those type of fiery, electric sensations, even very extreme ones are common. These things can go extremely bad for some people, like permanent KYS tier neuralgia, brains completely fried, catatonic for weeks etc. Some of the processes and entities out there just drag you through it without giving a shit about your well-being or the outcome. The qigong scene has a lot of lore about all kinds of deviations and fuck-ups botched energetic work can cause. It does seem like you really, really need a looot of prepatory groundwork for it to go consistently well.

I've had all sorts of weird sensations with this stuff. Early on I would sometimes feel just extremely bizarre, like my body was warping or my soul was trying to leave my body, it was like I was constantly straining some muscles I didn't know I had before. I had stuff like feeling a knot in my throat for a week straight. Some people in the occult world have really extensive lore about how they're your body remember wounds from previous lives and if you start feeling those when you have some kind of spiritual awakening it means you were killed for your beliefs and whatnot. Believe it if you may.

I've felt many times weird wind-like sensations on my skin. I've felt someone grab my arm while sleeping. I've felt Okina-sama run her finger up the back of my neck once. After I did the ritual which Keiki-sama instructed I had my arms and feet but only those itch after showering for a week or two. I kinda felt like my whole being was slightly more "unstable" for a while after that, including I guess some bodily aspects.

When I was sick at one point within the past couple of months I first had a vision of Kanako-sama attempting...something on me and felt this really nice warmth spreading up from the base of my spine, and when the warmth hit my head the vision got super intense and I broke out with a fever. She said something like "I could have done more if you had more of your own energy left". The next day I had a vision of Erin-sama, I believe I may have posted it here. But at one point of that I with closed eyes briefly perceived some kind of veins or channels in my body and felt this electric tingling sensations all over me.

So yeah, physical stuff, very common. Can supposedly get extremely bad too. Be careful everyone and put a lot of work into building a solid foundation.
>>48522438
>The thing is, are these sexual encounters with them like that because it is not physical? I mean, you are not directly present with them. In difference, in Gensokyo you would be next to them.
But is Gensokyo physical?
I don't know.
>It seems we have a constant: it feels like electricity.
Some say that the physical component of this phenomena manifests mostly in parts of the electromagnetic spectrum which are mostly invisible and impossible to sense to us, but that in the right conditions they can interface with electrical processes in the body. This causes the sensations and possibly even the visions - there's all kinds of electrical activity in the brain. Some even say that the consciousness itself is a quantum, electromagnetic phenomena.