/jp/ - Otaku Culture

are any of your quotes actually sourced

>>46450127
>Eiki take bribes
Not factually correct, the money Eiki is willing to take is not real money, but rather a representation of how loved the person was in life, in fact, Eiki is willing to give that person a second chance at life based on that BECAUSE shes a good hearted individual.
>Reimu’s a race traitor
The same Reimu that chooses violence against youkai even if they are not involved in the incidents at all? That same Reimu?

>>46450204
don't bother replying to retards that use zounose as their OP, they're already living in a fantasy land

>>46450127
Anon, if you wanted to make a grimsokyo thread you could have just said so, be honest with yourself

>>46450127
You posted Zounose. NOTHING you said warrants attention or validation. Apply yourself and try again.

Who are you quoting, anyway?

>>46450204
Reimu being anti-youkai is a front, she’s basically doing the youkai bidding to suppress anybody who threatens the status quo. She lets youkai around her shrine all the time. The whole ending of FS is about this

>>46450127
Too green.

>>46450127
It should be baneable to post Zonouse.

>>46450336
>>46450757
So is it Zonouse or Zounose?

>>46450805
The latter.

>>46450757
>baneable
If I pull that proxy off, would you die?

>>46451171
It would be extremely painful

>>46450127
Who are you qouting, can you post sauce?

>>46452062
The voices

>>46451249
You're a big fag.

>>46452124
For you

I am going to force-feed every single inhabitant of Gensokyo Arby’s as punishment for being a bunch of awful “people”.

>>46450127
>Eiki take bribes and won’t let people into heaven
Fucking retard

>>46450127
>Kasen’s a manipulative mass murderer who acts like she’s better than anyone else
Arm-chan, sure.
>Byakuren’s a con artist who lets her subjects do all her work for her
Yet another /gay/pee neet that doesn't get the concept of pulling one's weight. Your parents might let you leech of off them but Bijiri expects temple maintenance for the temple she owns in exchange for a place to sleep and food to eat. Not a bad deal.
>Eiki take bribes and won’t let people into heaven
Yes. Her shitty ministry is running out of cash and whats more this dumb bitch seems to let in only assholes in heaven. Yukari said that the heaveniggers try to filter out as many people as possible and are snobby assholes. Normally you could take what she says with a heaping mound of salt, but given Tenshi's behavior it makes Yukari's statements more believable. Hell, Tenshi never even earned what she got anyway, she got into it because of her family. Fuck the Yama and her gay moral faggotry. Not to mention plenty of evil characters living it up in hell like its a resort...
>Miko hates poor people and would love to subjugate the human race with an iron fist
Dunno about the poor people part, but the weird Trump allegory zun projected onto her character might point to that. The iron fist part is probably true yeah although Miko was suppose to be a good leader, right?
>Reimu’s a race traitor who kills anyone who dares go against the law with a smile on her face
Race traitor? If anything she's a human supremacist! Wouldn't be surprised if she measures yokai skulls and writes manifestos...
>>46450590
You're making it sound like she's in on this and not being manipulated or outplayed. And you're ignoring the symbiotic relationship the village has with yokai. What with yokai preventing disasters from striking the village, integrating themselves into its economy and providing goods and services and most of all marrying lonely anons...

>>46453118
>Bijiri expects temple maintenance for the temple she owns in exchange for a place to sleep and food to eat
That's not what she states. She tries to pass it off as training, but that's simply not how it works, let alone it working for youkai. She basically misleads her underlings with erroneous claims. I.e. cons them.

>>46453118
Why am I not surprised that a Byakuren apologist gets Miko's character completely backwards?

>>46453118
>And you're ignoring the symbiotic relationship the village has with yokai.
It’s not a symbiotic relationship, the yokai are just keeping the humans around for food and nothing more. Humans have basically no rights and can’t do anything besides be 19th century Japanese peasants who get scammed by literally every party at all times. The entirety of FS was about this

>>46453118
Incredible, how one person can have such a smooth brain take and lack of understanding.

>>46453118
Hold on. Was this post made by Seija? Are we getting flipped?

I'm going to eat everyone on this board and make Kazen proud!

>>46453461
Miko being a crazy ruler is something established all the way back in AoCF with her dream self showing she just fundamentally hates poor people.

>>46453118
>Yet another /gay/pee neet that doesn't get the concept of pulling one's weight. Your parents might let you leech of off them but Bijiri expects temple maintenance for the temple she owns in exchange for a place to sleep and food to eat. Not a bad deal. *Additional gay noises here*
Hey, i remember you from the Byakuren thread.

>>46455597
>dream self
Funny how Byakuren apologists like to bring up the dream selves in regards to other characters, but when you bring up Byakuren's dream self, they start screeching.

>>46455597
Pray tell, be the Prince false in her assessment?

>>46455982
Ah yes, Byakuren's Dream Self that confirms her clinginess beyond all doubt, once again proving that she's the most wifeable religious leader.

>>46455982
I not a Byakuren fan, she's also a bitch, but her dream self version is like lazy controlling psycho who wants to blows peoples head off if they disagree... but Miko's is straight up waiting to genocide poor people for existing.

>>46456064
>Nepo baby charlatan who had good PR
No, she ain't

>>46450127
Kill yourself /v/aggot

>>46455597
Is that even about poverty in the material sense, or is it really more about being spiritually poor, since the Yorigami sisters definitely qualify both ways.
I wouldn't be surprised if Miko conflates the two, and thinks that those poor of character will also obtain little in the way of material possessions, and vice versa, so she'd have disdain for peasants for being her lessers, but while waking Miko would be sensible and pragmatic enough not to admit that and leave them be, her Dream Self, unburdened by common sense and entirely true to her innermost desires, would freely admit to how much she looks down on others.

Jo'on and Shion, who by their very existence do absolutely nothing but bring poverty and misery to everyone around them, would be the lowest of the low to Miko. They're not just poor, they're an outright negative to society, and she thinks the world would be way better off without them specifically.
So basically, Miko only wants to purge beggars and other parasites (i.e. youkai), who contribute nothing to society, and the more typically poor but productive should either improve themselves or accept their position in life and labor for the sake of their betters.

>>46453118
Look out Anon, your boob nun bias is showing.

>>46456681
The thing is, at least in this scenario, Jo’on and Shiloh were actually growing as people and trying to undo their mistakes. So ironically they’re probably some of the only Touhou characters actually get nicer by their own volition.

>>46450590
Why is Reimu as small as Marisa here?

>>46450127
The one Reimu killed for "going agains the law" literally shed away his humanity and became a monster. He abandoned his humanity and had no right to live.

>>46456882
Jo'on was, Shion wasn't. That's sort of why they work with Miko in that conversation, because Jo'on is trying to become more while Shion is happy staying where she is. Jo'on stays at the temple for a while and eventually changes to only use people who can afford to lose a bit of money while Shion just avoids the problem by hanging around with Tenshi who counteracts her poverty influence.
And then in 17.5 they both go all in on the oil industry and end up in crushing debt, then start a tourism business where they take people's money in advance and then take them into the Hell of Blood Pools with no idea what'll happen if they fall in

>>46456882
Jo'on was gonna ditch the temple before meeting Dream Byakuren, but seeing her so selfish and lazy instantly made Jo'on like her much more. That's probably also where the "steal from the rich" idea came from, since she realized that if you pick your targets carefully and keep up a veneer of benevolence, you can get away with much more shit than you could otherwise.

Grimsokyofags still don't get it.

>>46457394
He literally shed his humanity because he had realized that the village was an eternal prison/zoo/buffet created by the youkai/gods, and that the only way to ever escape was to become a monster and fit in with the rest of the freaks. He literally has no intention of hurting anyone ore even being apart of the community and just wanted to be left alone in the woods.

Reimu doesn't give a shit if someone is a monster or youkai, she literally hangs out with mass murdering child killers all the time at the shrine, the Fortune Teller just broke the rules and Reimu killed him with a smile on her face

>>46457399
>>46457449
Well fuck, i guess all Touhou characters are irredeemably evil. ZUN truly is a doomer

>>46457750
*ahem*

>>46450127
>who lets her subjects do all her work for her
We're still doing this shit?

>>46450127
Eiki and Miko are innocent. Miko is at worst kind of a twat to her followers, which is apparently standard Taoïsme prodecure. Eiki is just kind of poorly written

>>46460120
Eiki you could argue is bad by association with how fucked up the afterlife is, but it seems she mostly wants to do whats best and is constrained by her job
Miko however as >>46455597 points out, she's got some pretty genocidal ideas of what she thinks of lesser and "evil" people, and with how much ZUN kinda fleshes her out, its pretty clear she would kill a lot of people she considered "unfit".

>>46461618
Is she wrong, though? The Yorigami sisters even consider themselves to be the most disastrous and despicable duo, and even by the time of 17.5, they basically just make things worse for everyone and provide absolutely nothing of value to society as a whole.
Like, maybe Dream Miko also wants to purge people who aren't complete pieces of shit, but if it's just them and others on their level, I can't really blame her for feeling that way.

>>46461618
Meanwhile, real Miko gracefully retracts her offer of administrating the Human Village, secludes herself where she bothers nobody and pursues her own, private goals, all the while keeping an open door for those who can meet her (admittedly, stringently high) standards.

Maybe dream selves aren't reflective of the real character's personality, hmm?

Gotta love how dream selves are a throwable weapon that is used discrimenately to attack some characters and not others, make up your damn minds already.

>>46461784
Yeah, but the big thing is she also relates being poor of worth to be poor of mind, which is a dangerous slope and kinda telling since Prince Shotoku was y'know... a rich prince.
>>46461879
>>46462089
This argument kind of falls apart seeing how Other dream versions of characters like Marisa and even Byakuren (to a lesser extent) are shown to be not only pretty in line with the characters real personality but far less psycho (Marisa just being sad she always plays second fiddle)
Like Mamizou, Kasen, and Tenshi's dream selves just seem what they would be like if they didn't have to play nice all the time, its what they really feel like without restraint... i don't see how Miko would be any different.

>>46462284
>its what they really feel like without restraint
Without restraint is always the key word here. As you pointed out, Marisa's DS is much more in line with her waking self, and I'd say Tenshi's is too barring the fact that she obviously isn't strong enough to take on everyone who would oppose her attempt to recreate the world, and those characters are much more noticeably straightforward and direct individuals. Give someone enough power to not have to worry about consequences and they might act much more like their Dream Selves, but that doesn't indicate that (barring ZUN-writing) they can't change and improve as individuals, with, barring Mamizou, most of the ones you named being at least somewhat decent if not noted for being more upstanding named characters.

>>46461618
>its pretty clear she would kill a lot of people she considered "unfit".
The problem is that in Touhou most of those people 100% deserve it.

>>46463958
I think the problem with that line of thinking, is the very clear overtones of ZUN trying to portray the religious leaders as basically all forms of con artists, the religious wars and the WAHH/FS mangas really lean towards the fact that characters like Miko and Byakuren, while not hitler incarnate, are ultimately selfish and vain people who sacrificed a lot in order to transcend their humanity. They preach a lot of trying to help humans but often times they'll do what they want for personal gain/profit and work with characters who are often way worse then they are for, again, personal gain (Seiga, Mamizou)
ZUN changing the Prince's entire backstory into just spreading Buddhism while secretly practicing Taoism with one of their own followers as a guinea pig kinda shows that they're inherently kind of a fraud, even before Ten Desires.
In the end i think the Religious Leaders, including Reimu, aren't really outright evil... they're kinda worse, they're opportunists.

>>46464228
I mean… yeah, but most of them arent poor. Besides Reimu

>>46450127
i know this is bait but c'mon, zounose? where reimu is an incompetent tool? if anything marisa is the race traitor there, but literally everyone sucks in his doujins. it's grimdark for the sake of edginess, and frustratingly bland if you're not reading it because of how hilarious it is to take the piss out of. but either way nothing you said is correct

if you really wanted to thrive in Gensokyo you'd either live as a hermit, become a magician, or live the status quo in the village. even taking away the grim glasses you're wearing it's a prison for everyone inside, not just the humans who live their lives in content being in a parasitic relationship. the religious nutjobs all suck, reimu included because she'd actively try to kill you before losing your humanity if you acclimated to the village

>>46465719
This thread is retarded for existing because the Zounose bait has been pointed out a thousand times, but you're even dumber for posting some shitty Youtube essay nobody cares about in a bait thread.

>>46465396
The problem is ZUN kind of undermined himself by making Miko basically the only character with power that actually cares about humans. Making her better than 99% of the cast.

>>46465719
>>46466080
I always find it funny that people act like zounose’s stuff as any more grimdark than ZUN’s work, when honestly he’s a bit more sentimental than ZUN ever was.

Like Reimu in Zounose’s work can actually feel for innocent people dying and even be mournful for people she couldn’t save… ZUN’s Reimu I don’t think has ever felt bad for anyone’s death other then mild annoyance in the FS manga.

>>46468741
"More" grimdark is completely subjective, but that's not the problem with Zounose's works. The problem is they're internally inconsistent and often abandon logic or even pre-established facts in order to include some kind of "shocking" imagery.

>>46468741
"more grimdark" is nonsense, grimdark is a subgenre defined by total absence of hope and focus on the worst parts of human psyche, overlapping extensively with horror, splatterpunk, dystopian fiction, and generally being extremely 80s and 90s. You can't be "more grimdark" because this is a 1 or a 0, either it is grimdark or it is not. You can be more dark, because that has relative qualities to it in that a story can be darker than others (perhaps more brutal, more grotesque), but a story cannot be grimdarker than others. Compare describing two horror stories as "more horror" (nonsense) vs "more scary".

>>46468741
Zounose still comes a lot closer to canon than anybody else, with it's only real failings is when things like the page you posted happen and Zounose makes it less dark than canon.

>>46468881
>Zounose still comes a lot closer to canon than anybody else
To me it's more that canon itself has been slowly leaning towards a darker depiction of the world and it ends up somewhat aligning to Zounose's own interpretation. Years ago this wouldn't even be an idea worth considering.

>>46469020
You're over stating it, PMiSS was published in 2006 and SoPM was published in 2012.
Literally over a decade.

>>46468757
>The problem is they're internally inconsistent and often abandon logic or even pre-established facts
So like normal Touhou canon
>>46468802
You can absolutely be “more grimdark” than another grimdark story. A grimdark story can be total dystopian and nihilistic in a world where everyone dies and fades into nothing, or be an existential nightmare about eternal suffering in a cosmic scale either about hell or worse. Both are grimdark but one’s definitely worse.
>>46468881
>>46469020
Again, ironic that after stuff like FS the only real big differences between ZUN’s and Zounose’s work is the gore and the slight degree of humanity that Zounose gives his characters. Like, Look at how Sanae is depicted in the fan work, someone who feels extremely bad about killing an innocent person… and then Sanae in the official works.

>>46470289
there's no greater autism test than seeing people post this sanae panel
thanks, anon

>>46470289
>So like normal Touhou canon
For all of ZUN's forgetfulness, his works rarely contradict themselves within the same instalment. His retcons are also rarely malicious in nature.

Zounose, meanwhile, can chuck the main plot of a doujin out the window in the last 3 pages just for an excuse to draw something gory.

>>46470392
>His retcons are also rarely malicious in nature.
Yeah, I highly doubt him turning Reimu's line about an animal realm when fighting Ran in PCB into a brick joke is malicious, although this is the softest retcon I can think of.
Him making Necrofantasia more of a Yukari song for more Hifu connections is probably slightly above this in boldness of the retcon.

>>46468741
It's because he doesn't play everything for black comedy. It's like the difference between the Sopranos and Seinfeld.

Not to say either one is close to those shows, but you get the point.

>>46470333
NTA, but nothing indicates this is that out of character for Sanae.

>>46470333
The context doesn’t make any better, if anything it makes her seem worse.
>>46470637
Yeah that about sums it up, funny how comedy and horror are just a matter of context.

>>46470647
If anything it supports her as a bigger race traitor than Marisa, I have no idea why people think she's better than either of them she's worse.

>>46470752
Marisa isn’t really a traitor because she doesn’t really have ties to anyone besides Reimu, she treats everybody equally and isn’t apart of some conspiracy or pretending that she’s some messiah to the humans. She does what she wants. Sanae literally abandons her humanity and is straight up unfeeling con artist who gets a kick out of ripping people off. She’s “nice” in that she’s an airhead, but she’d rob a poor man blind.

>>46471606
>Marisa isn’t really a traitor because she doesn’t really have ties to anyone besides Reimu
Eh... she is a literal human villager.

Otherwise I mostly agree. At worst you can argue she doesn't do enough but she does seem to be willing to hell people unprompted. She's a anti hero by the standards of most settings but a saint by Gensokyo.

>>46471617
Didn't she run away from the village and life in the woods like a neet. She's about as detatched from the village as Reimu is, but she doesn't have a real stake in how Gensokyo runs.
Maris is ambivalent at best but she also doesn't really have any power to change anything. She just does her best in a world where people like her can get killed at any moment, Reimu and the other religious leaders actually pretend like they're doing everything in the villagers interest, Marisa is just a care-free spirit that does whatever she wants.

>>46471802
Still worlds better than any of the other Incident Resolvers, such as Youmu literally committing crossroads killings. Marisa may not be able to effect any major change, but she does sincerely try to help when she sees people suffering in front of her. Though admittedly sometimes her good intentions aren't executed in the best way, such as telling a crying child that finding skeletal remains is normal and not to worry about it.

>>46471802
We don't know when she did that, it could have been two years ago in universe far as we know. She still seems to have daddy issues, all things considered. Which does puts her above everybody else when it comes to attachment.

>>46471825
>Though admittedly sometimes her good intentions aren't executed in the best way, such as telling a crying child that finding skeletal remains is normal and not to worry about it.
I honestly can't tell if that is that her genuinly trying to help the kid with a tough love approach, her being honest, or just her being weird.

>>46471849
I think even if she is detached or kinda crass, it’s at least kinda u dastardly seeing how rough living in Gensokyo is. Even her reasons for being a thief boil down to “I ain’t gonna live long anyway so you can just take the stuff back after I die”. Shit man, i don’t know how long anyone outside of Jesus himself would be an optimist in a place where even the gods are just glorified snake-oil salesmen.

>>46470289
>Both are grimdark but one’s definitely worse.
You almost got the point of the post there but you still missed it.

>>46470392
>can chuck the main plot of a doujin out the window in the last 3 pages just for an excuse to draw something gory
Ah so it was the Sekibanki guy.

>>46471955
>i don’t know how long anyone outside of Jesus himself would be an optimist in a place where even the gods are just glorified snake-oil salesmen.
Maybe because they are overglorified idols? they lose their followers , they are no better than a yokai. Also Don't mention Jesus Here, the sages surely avoid any serious monotheist
least some faithful follower managed to link-up with the most Pro-human divine and put in danger all of gensokyo

>>46470289
>pic
Leave it to autists to interpret gag pannels as serious lore and vice versa

>>46453182
Her Dream version is warped.

>>46471825
>such as Youmu literally committing crossroads killings
Where's that from?

>>46471955
>Even her reasons for being a thief boil down to “I ain’t gonna live long anyway so you can just take the stuff back after I die”
She is however trying to research for ways to become inmortal like Byakuren, Alice and Patchouli did.

>>46472740
NTA but I remember someone (I think Eiki) scolding Youmu for doing this thing that samurais did (I dont remember the exact name), that thing was basically using random passerbys as dummy targets for her swordsmanship.

>>46472819
At least unlike Byakuren, she's not decieving people by protecting youkai who literally slaughter people in the hundreds, she's not really harming anyone by just trying to live forever.

Especially when in universe, places like Heaven are literally closed so you either get stuck in the netherworld for all eternity, get reincarnated right back into Gensokyo to do all that shit again, or just burn in hell for 10 trillion years.

>>46468741
This picture has big "Dr Doom helping clean up 9/11" energy to it.

After this thread dies I will make a thread discussing and making a tier list to see if theres ANY character free of sin in this series, so far I can only think of Cirno and literal who characters like Hina, the Prismrivers and the Autumns, seems like a good topic of discussion.

>>46472990
Cirno kills small animals for fun.

>>46473020
I thought of that, but shes so stupid I dont know if I should count that or not, I guess I should.

>>46472905
Where was Reimu when the Fukushima reactor melted down?

>>46472990
Seiran is completely unimpeachable.

>>46473087
>invades another country and shoots first when questioned about it

>>46473039
Cirno calls herself the fairy that will freeze even crying children.

>>46472990
I’m pretty sure Komachi and Eiki are pretty on the level honestly. Worse thing you could say about Eiki is she’s strict and Komachi lazy.

>>46473254
Eiki literally wants Yuuka to go around randomly killing and assaulting people.

>>46473271
And wants Reimu to beat the shit out of Youkai.
Eiki wants people to do their job to maintain the balance of Gensokyo, shes the yama for a reason, shes true neutral at worst and neutral good at best, since she genuinely wants to see people improve (thats why shes so preachy) and will literally give you a second chance at life if enough people are sad about you dying.

>>46473278
Controversial take but, telling people to go around randomly assaulting people is bad and you shouldn't do it.

>>46473294
And what would be the alternative? Letting Gensokyo collapse due to youkai not behaving as they should?

>>46473338
Yes, Youkai are ontologically evil and should all die.
We've been over this in the other threads.

>>46473294
Uhhh WRONG. Hurting people is funny and therefore righteous and therefore you should do it.

Eiki may be a neutral character and actually not be evil, but shes not "free of sin", so she doesnt enter on the other anons criteria.

>>46473345
Fuck it I'll bite. What do you even get out of Touhou then? It's a setting about youkai, made for youkai, focused on youkai antics.
That's like reading a nature magazine and complaining about the trees being too green.

>>46473375
Upholding an evil system of a system which perpetuates evil makes you evil, Eiki is evil.
No Touhou characters are free of sin, even the fairies have victims, Clownpiece only doesn't send people into a murderous fenzy because she would get in trouble and the three fairies victimize people with their pranks.

>>46473387
>too green

>>46473387
I'm not talking about what I get out of Touhou as a setting, it's just that you want to examine the serious morally, everybody in is completely evil.

>>46473389
Now hold your horses mate, you have good points, but the other anon is not wrong, Eiki was dealt the shittiest cards imaginable, shes a judge, but she has to make sure that the system she works for, works, otherwise she might actually die, she wants to see people improve and wants to send people to heaven, but heaven is literally closed because of aids, so she has no other choice but to send people to hell if they are bad, or the netherworld/reincarnation if they are good, even if they dont deserve that shit, all of that because of factors literally outside of her control. She is both a victim and a worker of the system.
Your reasoning implies that no good exists because the system is flawed, so what, are you saying that EVERY human on earth is literally EVIL (evil) because the participate in a flawed system they had no choice but to be in? Come on.
You cant have both good intentions and be evil at the same time.

>>46473410
Kogasa is completely evil?
Kyouko is completely evil?
Aunn is completely evil?
Wakasagihime is completely evil?

>>46473424
Who cares of Eiki is a victim or whatever, she's still evil and perpetuates evil, therefore she is evil.

>>46473345
Do you rank Reimu as evil because she killed fortune teller?
If so, then you're contradicting yourself because she would have killed a youkai. He may have been human and had no evil intentions but by your definition, youkai can not be anything but evil. He's not an exception because at that moment he was a full fledged youkai.
If you want to argue she's evil because of her part in the system, she's doing so unknowingly and she's never actively directly helping youkai, she stops incidents when they happen because that's her job. There's also no telling what happens if Gensokyo collapse. People can move between it and the outside world just fine, but what happens if Gensokyo collapses? Do everyone, including humans, die? If so, keeping Gensokyo's current order in place is morally justified, as killing x number of good humans (I'll spare you including the dieties, most of which are good in nature) to kill all evil youkai is not good.
If you want to argue she's evil because of her greed, well bitch has to make a living and she can't be fucking around owning a shop when her. So she needs to make money off her job, which is to protect the village from youkai and also quell villager anxieties. You can't say she's scamming people in the latest whalehu chapters either because she doesn't think the writings are harmful on their own (they aren't, they really are marks in the end) but she gives peace of mind to villager and possibly prevent a new youkai (ie pure evil to you) from being born which is her job. She just didn't realise they were marks for theft, but her job is supernatural incident solving not a detective, you can't call someone being stupid evil.

>>46473451
So not even going to argument anymore, ignoring the rest of the points I made, all righty.

>>46473451
>shes evil... BECAUSE SHE IS OKAY?!

If evil why hot?

>>46473457
Reimu killing the Fortune Teller is not bad because she killed a youkai for being a youkai, she didn’t give a shit he was just a youkai, she killed him because he dared break the rules of the system. Reimu lets youkai get away with their shit all the time, she doesn’t even do her job of exterminating youkai all that often anyway, even though she should. She only ever does her job in service of helping the system She absolutely knows of the system she perpetuates, especially by the end of FS, she just doesn’t care
And she ain’t ambivalent about it either, she literally grins like a psycho when ending the Fortune Teller, being totally fine with mindless killing. This ain’t the face of someone only doing their job out of obligation.

>>46473387
I mean you can enjoy a piece of media and also think that all of its characters are just shitty people who probably deserve to die. Touhou is great black comedy about a bunch amoral douchebags existing in a world that pretty analogous to hell for most people. But the personalities are so over the top you can’t help but like it.

Like, I love Game of Thrones and its characters… but I think pretty much every one of them in it absolutely got what they deserved and would never want to know them in real life. Even the nicer ones.

>>46473573
By killing fortune teller, she's showing that humans that turning into evil would only lead to death, so by your logic, she's evil because she kills someone who broke the rules, possibly either inspiring other humans to become evil itself or become prey to those who do.
Her saying she doesn't mind needless killing is a reply to FT saying killing him would be needless as he'd reside far from the village. There's also a misunderstanding about exterminating, it doesn't mean killing youkai, she's actively exterminating youkai in the games. Exterminating means stop youkai from doing rowdy shit, it's different from killing.
What's wrong with her smiling while killing youkai? They're evil incarnate after all, always good to get rid of a bad thing right?

>>46473633
The problem is that Reimu does not care if the man is or isn’t evil, Reimu hangs around with youkai all the time, even the ones who perpetuate the most evil and feels nothing of what they do. She only cares if they disrupt the system, anything else is fair game. The fortune teller himself wasn’t even a particular threat to Gensokyo at all, he was going to live in the woods and keep to himself. He was no threat at all, but showing that humans could escape their prison was enough for him to be silenced.
Killing someone for breaking the rules of a system that subjugated its inhabitants isnt any different from shooting a man for running away from a concentration camp.
And yes, Reimus lack of extermination of youkai is absolutely a problem, even outside your definition of “stopping” youkai. Eiki and Reimu herself point this out, she’s lenient on youkai who deserve to be destroyed because she ultimately benefits from their continued existence. So even by you own analysis, she isn’t even doing her base job of destroying evil, she only destroys the evil that benefits her and her masters status.

>>46473674
>He was no threat at all, but showing that humans could escape their prison was enough for him to be silenced.
They can do so by becoming pure evil and then what, being let loose in the outside world? They'll either just up and vanish or proceed to commit horrible acts.
>The fortune teller himself wasn’t even a particular threat to Gensokyo at all, he was going to live in the woods and keep to himself.
But he's a youkai, and youkai are ontologically evil and should all die after all, right? There can't be good youkai who keep to themself or do no harm or are not pure evil, so they must all be systematically destroyed.
>she’s lenient on youkai who deserve to be destroyed
Implying there are youkai who don't deserve to be destroyed? I'm confused now. They are ontologically evil though?
>Eiki [...] point this out, she’s lenient on youkai who deserve to be destroyed because she ultimately benefits from their continued existence.
Does she? Seems to me like she's saying she's exterminating too many youkai to me.

>>46473619
Know what, that's fair. To me "deserves to die" in the context of Touhou seems a bit much. Most youkai are too whimsical and exaggerated for me to take that seriously.
If it were devoid of lighthearted aspects I might say otherwise.

The print works were a mistake.

>>46473860
>Most youkai are too whimsical and exaggerated for me to take that seriously.
I refuse to gosling this thread, but I will point out that being whimsical and exaggerated doesn't somehow make you a good person. Many real life tyrants and serial killers where very whimsical and exaggerated. Most youkai are sociopathic and evil and do 100% deserve to die, the story being seen from Reimu or one of her friends perspective and therefore being generally lighthearted does not change that.

>>46473469
Because I don't care about your argument or Eiki's circumstances.

>>46473457
Reimu's evil because supporting the existence of Gensokyo, which was created for the youkai, is evil.
As youkai are ontologically evil there is no moral weight to killing them so killing any number of youkai to save any number of human lives is fine.
Even the deities benefit from the system and the humans being trapped their, and as they have a position within their society superior to humans are morally responsible for bad things befalling the humans.
At the end of the day Gensokyo is just a protection racket.

>>46473619
Honestly, my main issue with Touhou is that I just don't think it's that funny. A lot of it is conceptually funny, and I would even argue the games can be pretty amusing due to the contrast between the gameplay/presentation and the dialogue. There's so much bombast and the games are generally very hard, but then all of the dialogue and general plot just reads like a rejected Puyo Puyo script.

Then you get to the print works and... I just don't find it all that funny. The closest to a genuinly funny work for me is probably PMISS and Bohemia. Just because of the sheer amount of dry wit in most of the commentary of Aya and Akyuu. Even then it's not really "Laugh out loud" funny in the way a good black comedy can be.

>>46473445
>Kogasa
Honestly kind of a spoiled and whiny womanchild in canon. At least she's mostly harmless despite some of her dialogue.

>Kyouko
Hangs out with a serial killer.

>Aunn
Barely sapient.

Don't know enough about Wakasagihime .

>>46473424
Eiki mostly just suffers from coming from a bad time. It's like Keine's interview in Bohemia reading totally different due to Gensokyo being a very different place.

>>46474913
*Godwin this thread

>>46473732
>They can do so by becoming pure evil and then what, being let loose in the outside world? They'll either just up and vanish or proceed to commit horrible acts.
But that's not the context for which Reimu killed the Fortune Teller, she didn't care if he hurt people in the outside world or whatever his motives were, she only cared that he brought imbalance to gensokyo.
If I kill a dangerous bear not because I'm trying to save a life, but because I enjoy murdering things and am trying to wipe out anything I decide doesn't fit my world view... it doesn't matter how dangerous the bear is, I'm still a psycho
>But he's a youkai, and youkai are ontologically evil and should all die after all, right? There can't be good youkai who keep to themself or do no harm or are not pure evil, so they must all be systematically destroyed.
Something can be evil and also keep to its self. He could've only ever harmed anyone that came to his residence, or wandered out of the village, the point was that at the moment he wasn't a an immediate threat like so many of the other youkai that Reimu lets walk away with no hassle. You can't argue that she's doing good by wiping out a specific youkai because its evil, while also not lifting a finger for plenty of other youkai
>Implying there are youkai who don't deserve to be destroyed? I'm confused now. They are ontologically evil though?
Some evil things take more priority to be destroyed than others, there a plenty of other youkai that are a far more blatant threat to humans/subjugating them then any of the ones Reimu regularly exterminates. If Reimu is good like you say, then she can't just pick and choose which youkai she gives a thrashing too one time, and one she outright kills.
>Eiki stuff
Well, Eiki is apart of a system that also says Youkai should spend more time hurting innocent people and is based on Japanese Buddhism which tells people that unborn children burn in hell for a billion years so fuck her.

>>46475018
Even the period of Touhou she comes from has Youkai as the clear enemies of humans, and she literally tells Yuuka to go around randomly killing and assaulting people.
She's evil.

>>46450127
>>46450590
Eiki, who's omniscient, criticised Reimu for exterminating TOO MANY youkai

>>46474065
The printworks were a mistake.

>>46477963
Further proof of Eiki's evilness, and as there are still Youkai in Gensokyo Reimu clearly isn't exterminating them enough.

>>46475002
>Barely sapient
Don't have a real argument?

>>46478085
How can she be evil, she has the power to "distinctly judge anything to be good or evil", couldn't she just judge herself as being good?

>>46478337
>power to "distinctly judge anything to be good or evil"
only under her Particular Pure Land Mahayana Buddism paradigm, Her mirror should not have te power to see the life of another member of a mayor world religion, less so if the religion in question isn't a Dharmic Religion.

>>46478337
No offense, but who decides what is good and evil in Touhou? They don't have like a God-God type deity who codifies all of existence, so it seems the rules are made by either the top gods or the ministry of right and wrong which has been proven to be a little corrupt (what with heaven being closed and allowing monsters to kill innocent people just because that's the way it is)
You also gotta remember that a lot of Tohou is based on the weird Japanese version of Buddhism which kinda seems to just enjoy torturing people for dumb shit like women menstruating having to go to their own hell... which y'know,.. most women do naturally.

>>46478614
>>46479030
I'm not saying she is necessarily good on a metatextual level, just that there's noone who could contest her authority.
I'm also not sure how close she is to the buddhist yama. I think if she was more explicitly buddhist she would have lectured the girls more about specifically buddhist sins such as drinking alcohol or eating meat, whereas she seems more neutral as far as religious ethics are concerned.

>>46476239
>she only cared that he brought imbalance to gensokyo.
And that would lead to Gensokyo's collapse which we still don't know the implication of, either the barrier is just gone but since all humans are now youkai, which you know ontologically evil and all that and they either terrorize the outside world or just vanish because they're in the outside world so everyone's dies as a result, or everyone inside Gensokyo, which is important to remember is another world seperate from the outside one, just straight up vanishes also killing everyone inside or the barrier could just stay up but now it's just youkais and they all die out
The bear in your example also isn't setting an example that you can just easily turn into a bear and the specialized in putting down evil bears won't kill you for it, so you can just turn into a bear and don't have to worry about being hunted by bears (in very specific condition, and explicitely rare occasions)
>he wasn't a an immediate threat like so many of the other youkai that Reimu lets walk away with no hassle.
As said above he is a huge threat to Gensokyo's existence. Letting him walk away at this moment just shows everyone that Reimu is willing to let Gensokyo become unbalanced and destroyed as a result. There was no letting him walk away at this moment. I know I'm headcanoning consequences above, but it is stated that the balance being disturbed means Gensokyo will be destroyed (whatever that means).
>Some evil things take more priority to be destroyed than others
You get a glaring opportunity to kill an evil bear. It's gonna go in hibernation soon so it won't harm anyone in the near future. Letting it walk away however will guarantee some people will be killed down the line if they venture near where it lives after it wakes up. Do you just let it go?
As a reminder, killing too many youkai would also affect the balance and possibly again affect balance -> destroy Gensokyo. To headcanon again, once all youkai are gone, the barrier could potentially vanish, which could be potentially be good for the humans (who have relied on dieties for generations and will have to adapt to a completely new way of life), but Gensokyo could also just collapse and they'd just vanish alongside it or they can be stuck in a youkai/godless Gensokyo.
Until we truly know what are the consequences of an unbalanced Gensokyo, you can't just say Reimu not killing every youkai or not letting every human turn into youkai is necessarily good or evil.

>>46479143
I mean the Yama of Japan is more based upon Buddhism than anything else, seeing how the yama is also derived from the Hindu God of Death. Pretty sure Yama was integrated into the broader japanese pantheon from Buddhism anyway

>>46479143
remember that she was Assigned to gensokyo. and gensokyo and it barrier runs on a weird Yukari interpretation of taoist Logic. a kind of Dualism.

>>46479177
>And that would lead to Gensokyo's collapse which we still don't know the implication of,
It would kind of be like if North Korea collapsed. Some people would benefit, the locals would be happy, and most of humanity wouldn't care.

>>46477917
In the period of Touhou she came from Youkai and Humans were described as basically playfighting in PMISS. Read the afterword to see what exactly I mean. It's why her dialogue reads so different now compared to back then.

>>46478099
How is it not? It's like claiming a dog is good or evil.

>>46479444
She's still a Buddhist deity and most humans living there follow Shinto.

>>46479444
they are not 100% ,shinto and Buddhism were syncreticed centuries before the formation of gensokyo at the end of the XIX Century
byakuren Provides many of the same "Services" like reimu does to the population.

>>46479708
>byakuren Provides many of the same "Services" like reimu does to the population.
If you mean she sells her body like a cheap whore, then yes.

>>46479676
>a dog
Aunn walks and talks like any other human or (intelligent) youkai, she is not just a dog. You're retarded if I need to explain how something that was brought to life is alive.

>>46450127
>Kasen’s a manipulative mass murderer who acts like she’s better than anyone else
Dropped. Stop making things up.

Man, I wasnt expecting that just a simple comment would creat such a massive shitstorm

>>46479667
But you don't know that. Gensokyo isn't just some place in the world, it is it's own world. North Korea doesn't exist on a different plane of existence.
You could be right, but we don't know.

>>46450127
Part of why I like Byakuren is because she gives off a cult leader vibe.

>>46479786
>(intelligent) youkai
She's a dumbass.

>>46479998
I doubt it would erase the outside world, if anything it's pretty likely the barrier collapsing would just kill everybody in Genskyo.

>>46479177
You see the problem is that Gensokyo is an inherently evil place, so yeah its continued existence is bad conceptually. It’s a literal paradise for demons who tormented humanity for centuries, false gods and false prophets who use humans like endless faith/cash machines. The humans are already doomed anyway with how the afterlife works so you’d be just speeding up the clock by wiping them out.
Reimu perpetuates a world that is built off evil, its existence of gods/youkai who refuse to change or give way to the new, they’re eternal misery machines that can barely even stand each other (spell card rules exist for a reason). Gensokyo barely holds itself together to begin with, it’s a time bomb that if there was any actual progress in ZUN stories (which he’s not gonna do because he’s not autistic enough to care about destroying his fun fantasy series to satisfy lorefags like me) then Gensokyo would be on borrowed time.

There has to be some perks to being a human in Gensokyo, otherwise why not just commit mass ritual suicide and damn all of Gensokyo to hell if humans are a necessity, but have nothing to gain from their miserable lives? What's the point in living in such a cruel cycle of death?

>>46480183
Same reason people in Sudan didn't commit mass ritualistic suicide: Humans are really good at coping.

With that said though, and I know this will never happen, but I would actually like a human village related incident that basically comes down to somebody encouraging the entire human village to off themselves to spite Youkai.

>>46480212
Well call it the plague of unbelief.

>>46450127
>Kasen
Nakadashi
>Byakuren
Nakadashi
>Eiki
Nakadashi
>Miko
Eh, you can have her
>Reimu
Armpit pussy

These are the facts by true Gensokyo patriots

>>46480100
But the gods do give back, see aki sisters and pretty much any other gods. They're not faith machines because it's an exchange. We know that beyond the aki sisters they get harvest and other benefits back.
>its existence of gods/youkai who refuse to change or give way to the new
Wrong from the existence of kappa technology being sold to humans, as well as Kanako literally trying to find a way to give humans a nuclear energy in SA. They are trying to progress in a way that can coexist with the supernatural

>>46480305
>and pretty much any other gods.
No, pretty much just the Aki sisters.

>>46480305
>Wrong from the existence of kappa technology being sold to humans,
Literally as a scam while they keep the actual societal changing stuff to themselves.

>>46480334
Aki sisters are the least known agricultural god of gensokyo, the others just aren't named. I thought you were a lorefag?

>>46476239
>Well, Eiki is apart of a system that also says Youkai should spend more time hurting innocent people and is based on Japanese Buddhism which tells people that unborn children burn in hell for a billion years so fuck her.
Can't wait for your next post "How Jesus is a bad guy for the things that God did that aren't even in the Old Testament"
Also love how story mode is Eiki telling Yuuka to stop teasing people around but the vs quote has her telling to terrorize more.

>>46480467
Who cares the Aki sister are complicit in their abuse of the human village through extortion anyways.

>>46480788
>through extortion
You don't have to rely on harvest gods. You can harvest the regular way just fine. How is that extortion?
You can ask them for a superharvest and they'll be more than willing unless you're an asshole to them which sounds like regular help to me.

>>46480183
Because death is a just a gateway to shit that's way worse, gotta remember most inhabitants of Gensokyo don't know that heaven is already closed, so they go about hoping that any misery they endure will be rewarded. Killing themselves would probably be a one way ticket to hell anyway, so why take the chance.
That and as bad as Gensokyo is, the youkai sustain the humans just enough that its not entirely unbearable as long you don't cause a ruckus and stay lucky that you don't foul of something worse. Life sucks, but most of them either don't know or are afraid of what could be if they step out of line.

>>46480305
The Aki sisters are like the lone exception (and even then, humans can harvest just fine on their own with modern day equipment or resources, they don't need gods to help them) but the rest are straight up swindlers or are justing using new ideas to steal money
Kanako's use of nuclear energy barely helps the villagers in any real substantial way, and stuff like the ropeway only exists to get people up the mountain to donate to the shrine. Not a single thing they do actively helps people in the village and they often start up problems with the help of the kappa and tengu to extort even more money out of the villagers.

Like the kappa technology is inconsistent at best and non-existent gags at worst, hell some of their machines are designed poorly on purpose to get people to fix them

>>46450127
Some of the 2hus are good. Definitely not any of the religious "leaders" vying for control.
Some youkai like Doremy have beneficial aspects. Theoretically gods can be perfectly good since they're based off of faith rather than fear and generally render services of some kind by default, though in reality some of the gods are just shit and gather faith violently and only for themselves.

>>46481481
>The Aki sisters are like the lone exception
Wrong, literally the entire basis of their character is that they're forgotten amongst the myriad of similar helpful gods. We just happen to see the most troublesome ones because guess what? We're exterminating the troublesome ones in the games.
Speaking of being a loremaster, you might want to give this a read to understand how Kanako is working to help the humans of the village with their energy and using newer technology
https://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Symposium_of_Post-mysticism/Part_4
We haven't seen it happen because seeing a Gensokyo with electricity would be weird, but she's looking to help humans progress technologically without being spritiually weak.

>>46480467
I generally don't count unnamed characters, and you can't really include them anyway in a discussion since we don't know anything about them. Maybe they are nice, maybe they are not. They could all be like Suwako and basically doing a protection racket.

>>46481792
>without being spritiually weak.
She more or less is though. Especially compared to her glory days of ruling most of Japan.

>>46482323
By spiritually weak she means the humans abandoning the spiritual side of the world. Her and Suwako were on the brink of dying because of the lack of the outside world's spiritualism. She's trying to get Gensokyo up to mach the outside world level while also maintaining the spiritual side (like using nuclear fission through "godly" means rather than technological ones.)
In Gensokyo she and every other god should be just as strong as their glory days, if not potentially stronger, they have gone from a world where her faith was only able to be gathered from one country, while in Gensokyo, 100% of that world's population has the ability to give her faith (that includes kappa and tengus, as noted by her SoPm article). Whatever she has gathered that faith yet or not is unknown. This is going down a powerlevel shit though, but even someone like Okina who is well a secret god is quite powerful during 16 without proactively gathering faith.

>>46481792
That's what Kanako *says* she wants to do, but she's basically a used car salesman and you shouldn't take anything she says at face value, nor is she anywhere near as smart as she thinks herself to be.

>>46482555
Credit where it's due, she wised up pretty quickly after SA, and when we see her other plots like with the dam in WaHH, the moment she catches signs of trouble, she pulls out.
On the other hand she's still the least trustworthy of the religious leaders. Miko's cited reason for inaction boils down to the villagers not having a strong enough desire for freedom to do anything about it themselves even with the opportunities they have. Byakuren will happily overlook Murasa continuing to drown people, but her motives boil down to not wanting to be alone, so anyone who ingratiates themselves with her enough can rely on her, for as bumbling as she can sometimes be. (see: ULiL) Kanako just wants faith, and if she wasn't dependent on the human village for survival would absolutely not think twice about them.

>>46482500
The problem with that idea is that the population of Gensokyo is about... 10000 people. It's why Hecatia, with only a few million followers, has everybody in Gensokyo beat effortlessly.

>>46481792
Like I said, most of the other gods are just background elements that make a part of life that is already done just fine by people on the outside without gods. They’re only really helpful in the sense the tengu stopping storms is helpful… humans not only have solutions for these problems but they also need humans to maintain Gensokyo in the first place. It ain’t kindness for most of them it’s preservation even if they don’t have strong faith directed toward them.
And you’re falling for Moriya propaganda if you think Kanako isn’t just using more modern tech as a way to look more alluring to the villagers for more money and faith. She doesn’t give a shit about how much her tech helps the village (and it doesn’t at all) she just realized that implementing more modern ideas is an easier way to keep your religion relevant. No different than a Church adding an xbox in the kid area or a 8k projector to the sermon.

>>46481481
i never undestood what is the problem with Kappa tech and Management, why is that they can't be trusted to build vital infraestructure?? i also never understood the reason kanako gave In WaHH as to why this is. they can't Cooperate?

>>46450127
something like that maybe

>>46485609
Why is Suika so low and Tewi so high?

>>46485609
Why are Eiki and Kiene so high?
Eiki is evil and Kiene is also complicit in abusing the villagers.
Hisami on the same level as Riemu feels wrong as well, not to mention Sotono and Mai who are just mind controlled mentally difficult teenagers who ward away evil.
Mizuchi, there's no way she's worse than Tsukasa.

>>46485661
Suika alcoholism
Tewi, it's hard to be evil when people will get luckier just from looking at you

>>46485609
How on Earth are Junko and Hecatia so low?
They're not at all hostile towards humans, and they're only engaged in open warfare against the Lunarians, who are all scumbags that deserve all the shit they get.
Plus, they fight pretty fairly, unlike the Lunarians who held Gensokyo hostage and forced the protagonists to risk their lives for them.

This whole list feels like either peak secondary nonsense, or you just rolling the dice and going with whatever comes up.

>>46485708
Alcholism? Thats it? In a land as Genskyo, where everyone drinks and are jerks about it, Suika, an oni, known for being honest and straight foward, and not only that, one of the nicest onis, is bad?

>>46485709
Eiki is 100% selfless big good pure waifu material
Keine teaches children and is often seen selflessly protecting others
Hisami original youkai inspiration is pretty scary but considering that the "hell" that she is supposed to drag people into is not really a hell and the fact that she works for Zammu would make her into a neutral-slightly good character, although to be honest, i don't know much about 19 lore, i finished this tierlist in 5 minutes based on my feelings
Wasn't sure about crazy dancers, I guess maybe they deserved 5 with other servant-type characters
Mizuchi is a vengeful spirit, it's really hard to get worse than this and she seems to not care about hurting/potentially killing people for pretty much no reason/gain
>>46485837
1 is for attempted genocide + Junko is literally a walking hate with attached limbs, you can't really get worse than that
>>46485874
I don't know, I just assumed that as an Oni, she would do some nasty things to humans from time to time

>>46485964
My guy if you think that about Suika then you better put each and all fairies on the bottom of the list, you assumed stuff about Suika, but fairies being huge jerks are very common knowledge, Cirno kills frogs for fun, the fairy trio randomly assault people and Star in particular likes to mess around with explosives, even Akyuu, second biggest spreader of missinformation, hates on fairies.

>>46485992
Fairies are just stupid kids, you can't hate them + they're basically nature personified, it's like hating the wind because it knocks your hat off (at least according to Kourin).
Suika lived in both the former Hell and on Youkai Mountain, where she was practically above the Tengu (the same Tengu who aren't afraid of even gods like Kanako), I really don't think that's possible without being at least a little ruthless.

>>46485964
If you seriously think two mentally disabled and mind controlled teenagers are on the same level as Yukari then there's something wrong with you.
Also Chen is an innocent child who's pretty dumb, all she does is play around with corpses due to Orin's influence and Orin doesn't even like killing people, she's just a corpse hauling necrophiliac. Even if she's a bakeneko the hostility of bakeneko historically towards humans is completely justified as they come about due to human abuse towards cats and the period in Japan which they were most prominent is when people were literally skinning and eat cats.
Mokou also killed people irregardless of who they were when she went mad back in the day so she's a mass murderer.
Miypi also literally drugs people and uses her mental manipulation of them for a cheap laugh.
Shiny also has no problem with being best friends with Seija and thinks Danmaku should be for killing.

>>46485059
They cant teamwork so their shit is unreliable.

>>46486104
>Fairies are just stupid kids, you can't hate them + they're basically nature personified, it's like hating the wind because it knocks your hat off
Then by that logic, Rumia should be higher, because shes just a wild animal, and you cant hate wild animals for doing wild animal things.
>I really don't think that's possible without being at least a little ruthless.
Again, youre assuming shit, when has Suika shown to be ruthless? The most we have seen is her being a cranky jerk in whaletits manga, and everyone in Genskoyo is a jerk.
Also, have you ever considered that onis are just uber powerful in general? Even more Suika who can multiply and make herself huge? Power =/= evilness.

>>46486111
>mind controlled teenagers
Yeah, but they were pretty smug about it in the game when they took away my bombs, so I knock them down a bit.
>Chen is an innocent child.
Chen openly threatens Reimu to kill her (although a lot of characters seem to do that just as a joke/taunt so who knows)
Mokou I think is pretty bad, yeah, I put her in 7 based on the present where she would be one of the better people to be around.
Shiny was just deceived, she believed she was fighting for the right cause
also if bad endings are canon then nobody is really a murderer (nobody but Yachie)
>>46486203
I imagine Rumia is somebody who would attempt to kill you on sight which makes her worse than everybody above her, it is mostly a speculation because Rumia almost doesn't exist in the canon
>youre assuming
Yes. Around Oni watch yourself

>>46486266
Chen only really responded to the unreasonable aggression of the heroines in PCB, she's perfectly nice until all of them tell her to die or express in treats in robbing the place.

>>46485609
Putting Komachi, a genuinely kind but lazy grim reaper just doing her job of helping people in the afterlife as the same tier as “I killed literally everyone that got in my path for shits and giggles” Mokou is a degree of lol I can’t really articulate

>>46486890
Mokou was just sad and misunderstood

>>46486901
So is Jason fucking Voorhees , but I’m not putting him high on a morality chart

>>46485609
Youre biased.
A lot.

>>46485964
>1 is for attempted genocide + Junko is literally a walking hate with attached limbs, you can't really get worse than that
Even if we assume for a moment that you even could even "genocide" moonies, there's still there part that no genocide was even happening.
Junko and Hecatia were just out to cap Chang'e, who is evil and deserves it, and the other Lunarians were only a target because they decided to shelter Chang'e instead of allowing justice to happen as it should. They made themselves into a valid target and got what they asked for.

Plus, if Kaguya's claims that the Lunarians created the youkai in the first place are true, it means that all Lunarians are complicit in their evils. Sagume probably most of all, given that she was responsible for the Urban Legend incident, which were basically youkai-lite.
Junko and Hecatia unironically are some of the most moral characters in the series, and only act against a clear injustice, never being shown to target innocents in any way.

>>46485964
Junkies at least has a reason for being so vicious, and only wants to fuck with the lunarfags because they won’t let her vent her frustrations on Chang’e. Hecatias just helping Junko because she genuinely feels sorry for her, she’s actually pretty chill by Touhou standards.

>>46487015
nah, heca hates the lunarians too, but for different reasons. Chang'e's husband shot down nine of the ten suns, which diminished the power of hell by weakening the shadows
she also hates them because she thinks they're basically the exact opposite of her ideology regarding hell, which she talks about in her AFiEU interview

>>46486954
where do you think we are

I always believed that if the Great Barrier disappeared, youkai would eventually vanish but not all at the same time, it would depend on which kind of youkai, some which embody easily-explained phenomena like Rumia (just darkness lol) would vanish almost instantly, which those who are more powerful and embody less-understood concepts like Yukari could linger for extended periods of time.

What do you think?

>>46487091
>which
meant while

>>46487091
I mean, Mamizou existed for the longest time in the outside world, so I dont know.

>>46486104
>Fairies are just stupid kids, you can't hate them
Why is Tenshi so low then.

>>46484572
>Like I said, most of the other gods are just background elements
Everything we're talking about is background elements, you can't be selective. There are gods that help human acheive harvest just through prayer, free of any kind of charge, anytime they ask.
>humans not only have solutions for these problems
I sure see humans stopping tsunamis and other thing in real life. Better yet, Merry and Renko's outside world seem so much fun what with the lifespan quotas and all that.
>but they also need humans to maintain Gensokyo in the first place.
And as mentionned,Miko says the humans have no desire for freedom, seems weird if Gensokyo was such a hellhole, huh?

>>46487091
It's more about fame, Mamizou can survive a long while in the outside world because tanukis are still very famous. Ran would probably survive a long time too. Maybe some like Sekibaki, Kagerou (RIP Waksagihime, Netowork bros...), Narumi, tengus and kappas, and the other like them would survive a while, but surprisingly, most of the big markethus would disappear
Kanaka and Suwako lived for a while outside until not enough humans started not believing in gods being real enough too.

>>46487015
Hecatia hates the lunarians on an ideological standpoint because they're too stuffy authoritarian. She also has reason to go after Chang'e because she had Hou Yi shoot down a star of hers, which weakened her power a bit.

>>46450127
Cirno. Even if she's dumb as a brick, she at least realizes something's wrong with Gensokyo's system and has attempted to challenge the status quo.

>>46487740
Hell and the Lunar Capital in general seem to be the two big opposing forces in Touhou, one favors freedom and crudity while the other favors technological-magical supremacy with authority

>>46487069
Hecatia dislikes Chang'e and the Lunarians, but her profile also states that her "hatred" is mostly because of her friendship with Junko, and without her, Hecatia probably wouldn't be taking any actual action against the Lunarians. She'd just consider them a bunch of cunts and not waste any time on them.

Eirin didn't know anything about Hecatia until well after the events of LoLK (although this is kind of hard to believe given that Hecatia is also a Moon goddess), so she couldn't have been a regular enemy of the Lunar Capital, and her profile also suggests that her friendship with Junko is actually very recent, and mostly happened because Junko needed someone with access to fairies, but Hecatia hit it off with her far more than expected. She probably just sympathizes with Junko a lot.

Is Eiki stronger than Yorihime or not?

>>46487919
In Gensokyo: yes, on the moon: not

>>46487698
>Everything we're talking about is background elements, you can't be selective. There are gods that help human acheive harvest just through prayer, free of any kind of charge, anytime they ask.
I mean, If you define background elements as being the main narrative thrust of the series yeah. Pointing out the gods exploit the humans for profit is like a main talking point in half of all Touhou media. Background gods that help the harvest are something we either barely see or is just vague background details. We barely even know anything about the gods to begin with.
>I sure see humans stopping tsunamis and other thing in real life.
Yeah, all those tsunamis that can happen in the landlocked Gensokyo that famously doesn’t even have a beach. Glad the gods are able to stop that shit.
>Better yet, Merry and Renko's outside world seem so much fun what with the lifespan quotas and all that.
The future world being a dystopian borefest doesn’t negate how shitty living in Gensokyo would be. I guarantee if you told the human villagers half of the stuff we have now in real life Japan, they’d jump ship immediately.
>And as mentionned,Miko says the humans have no desire for freedom, seems weird if Gensokyo was such a hellhole, huh?
Miko doesn’t have the full picture of Gensokyo, it’s been stated that the humans have basically had all the fight drained of them through hundreds of years of youkai interference, they are dumber and more complacent, hell a big part of FDS is about how little miss jailbreak is appalled at how pussy whipped humans have become. And one large part is that literally anyone that could be considered a leader among the humans gets taken out pretty fast, they don’t organize because they can’t. And y’know, there was one dude that tried to break control of the village… wonder what happened to him.

>>46488187
>Yeah, all those tsunamis that can happen in the landlocked Gensokyo that famously doesn’t even have a beach.
You're an absolute fucking moron, you were saying humans had counter measure to natural disaster
>They’re only really helpful in the sense the tengu stopping storms is helpful… humans not only have solutions for these problems
Tell me how humans in the outside world have a solution for these. Tell me how they deal with flash flood, these killed two people this week where I live.
>I guarantee if you told the human villagers half of the stuff we have now in real life Japan, they’d jump ship immediately.
They already know, they meet outsiders on the somewhat regular to the point stuff like football has a presence in Gensokyo.
>a big part of FDS is about how little miss jailbreak is appalled at how pussy whipped humans have become.
And the youkai are equally as pussy whipped, spell card rules and attacks are noted to be rare. Mizuchi doesn't know that either.

>>46488475
>You're an absolute fucking moron, you were saying humans had counter measure to natural disaster
No i didn't dipshit, i said humans had solutions for this stuff, we have ways to mitigate disasters or even protect areas from storms or keep people safer. Which is basically what most of the youkai already do anyway. You're the one bringing up fuckin tsunamis like thats the exact same thing as protecting against landlocked storms.
>Tell me how humans in the outside world have a solution for these. Tell me how they deal with flash flood, these killed two people this week where I live.
Humans have been finding ways to mitigate damages from storms, earthquakes, and tornadoes since the dawn of time. Better filtration and sewer systems, building above water level, shelters designed specifically to shield communities and advanced warning systems. Most flash flood related deaths don't even happen in homes or buildings, they happen from people in vehicles being in the middle of the storm.
>They already know, they meet outsiders on the somewhat regular to the point stuff like football has a presence in Gensokyo.
And i'm sure if any of those people wanted to leave the Human Village and go into the Outside World they would be allowed to with no issue right?
>And the youkai are equally as pussy whipped, spell card rules and attacks are noted to be rare. Mizuchi doesn't know that either.
Youkai are put in line by other Youkai so they don't accidentally fuck up and cause any damage to Gensokyo itself. Its a big point that lower class Youkai also get rimmed in the ass by how much Gensokyo sucks, its a paradise for the powerful and those who want control, just like FS says. Even the monsters can't win

>>46488792
>Humans have been finding ways to mitigate damages from storms, earthquakes, and tornadoes since the dawn of time.
And Gensokyo has a way to make them not happen at all. I'd say that's better than the other option.
>And i'm sure if any of those people wanted to leave the Human Village and go into the Outside World they would be allowed to with no issue right?
It's not about being allowed it's that it's impossible. Fortune teller couldn't he was going to live in the forest, 99% of the gods and youkai can't. It's a one way trip for pretty much everyone. The only people I'm aware of who can travel freely are:
Yukari: That's literally what she does
Mamizou: Through special means we do not know of
Nue: maybe, in relation to calling Mamizou, but as they are "old friends" they could have known each other from before the barrier times, calling could imply she stayed in.
Sumireko: by projecting her dream self into Gensokyo, so she's not actually crossing the barrier. You can add the whole occult balls which had the power to destroy the barrier and create holes in them, but again, we don't know the consequences of destroying Gensokyo for its inhabitants because as a reminder it's not a place on the outside world and what happened to the dragon balls anyway?
Rinnosuke: Technically didn't do it purposefully, some weird shenanigans about leaving his mind in Gensokyo but his body being outside, something he himself says isn't possible for regular humans to do. He could in theory do it again (he was terrified the whole time of being stuck outside) if the stars align.
Reimu: probably can as she can mess with the barrier and is partly responsible for Rinnosuke's leaving due to weakening the barrier at the time he was near it. She's never explicitely stated to be the one who moves outsiders back outside once they get to the Hakurei Shrine as far as I'm aware, but it's fair to assume it's her, still we know the shrine itself has a relation to the barrier (items tend to gather there and the barrier was weakened when it caught on fire in WaHH chapter 20, it's also explicitely stated as a gateway.) Although I don't believe she has ever willingly set out or traveled so she could be able to influence the barrier for some things.
There are also two barriers one Hakurei, one for the common sense, so it's possible Reimu could not let anyone out even if she wanted to or that it's a team effort to make someone else leave. She can weaken the barrier but whatever she can straight up make a hole in it isn't stated as far as I'm aware. Making the barrier weaker might make it easier to destroy it and Gensokyo leading to unknown consequences.

Vying for the control of the human village is nothing more than youkai wanting humans to buy their shit (whatever physical or information), it has 0 influence on their daily lives. It's purely bragging rights among youkai shenanigans.

>>46487091
I reckon most of the big gods would still be around since its said that they often go back and forth between Gensokyo and the outside world. Probably pretty likely that Okina would survive.

>>46489148
And Gensokyo has a way to make them not happen at all. I'd say that's better than the other option.
Barely, there have been times even the mangas where a weather event happens that the youkai and normal gods can't even stop without massive amounts of help. Same thing also only really helps the village itself as the outside area gets demolished
Also, if they were truly able to stop the storms from happening at all... why do the storms still happen at all and need the youkai to stop them?
>It's not about being allowed it's that it's impossible. Fortune teller couldn't he was going to live in the forest, 99% of the gods and youkai can't. It's a one way trip for pretty much everyone. The only people I'm aware of who can travel freely are:
You literally pointed out that Reimu can in fact let outsiders out at all times, and then trying to make a full headcanon to argue why Reimu can't let other people outside as well that literally just reads like cope. They don't want people getting to the outside world because they don't want them to leave, simple as that. They wouldn't have created a place that is so hard to get out of if they allowed people to... get ouf of it.
This is like arguing that prisoners can't leave prison because the walls would stop them... yeah buddy, why are the walls there in the first place?

And you are literally posting a panel from like one page away from her saying that all these parties want control over the village so humans will not rise against them and break out of Gensokyo's chains. They want to deceive people deliberately so they don't realize their predicament and fight back. Its literally right there >>46488187

>>46489501
>Also, if they were truly able to stop the storms from happening at all... why do the storms still happen at all and need the youkai to stop them?
It's about the consequences of them. They can stop the village from suffering any kind of damage rather than trying to diminish the odds and having failsafes.
>You literally pointed out that Reimu can in fact let outsiders out at all times
I pointed out that while Reimu may participate in letting outsiders out, it's never stated explicitely. All it says is they head to the Hakurei Shrine, which is explicitely noted to be a special gateway. Reimu can act on the great hakurei barrier but it's never stated if she can act in a way to let people out or just the barrier overall. Her whole thing about maintaining the barrier is also referring to her resolving incidents.
The real point is this, the villagers don't want to leave anyway. Even the old man who brings up the idea of the village being a ranch for meat in Lotus (is apparently quick to discard when Miyoi pointing out they don't eat humans nowadays anyway) doesn't bring up the idea of leaving. Villagers know about outsider, they (should) know about them leaving thanks to the chronicles, but no one has ever asked, even FT chose to become a youkai to leave the village but had no indication of even trying to leave Gensokyo, he saw the outside world and how different it was which made him want to leave the village, but nothing about leaving Gensokyo. Maybe they don't want to leave.
>And you are literally posting a panel from like one page away from her saying that all these parties want control over the village so humans will not rise against them and break out of Gensokyo's chains.
And one page before that she says whatever they do won't affect their lives, it's literally right there >>46489148

I also forgot about the newest CoLA and found this in it, neat. Youkai arguing against killing humans.

>>46485609
>Okuu that low
That girl is literally too stupid to have any kind of malice.

>>46487091
With their life story being made into a game and waifufags licking their feet, most of them definitely make it as long as ZUN survives.

>>46489850
I'm going to get involved in this discussion since a lot of your arguments are trash that I've heard before:

>It's about the consequences of them.
Then it's the same as the outside world.

>The real point is this, the villagers don't want to leave anyway.
Total headcanon with no bearing on reality. In-between their massive interest in the outside world and their massive dislike in Gensokyo there is zero reason to assume they do not want to leave. At absolute best, and I dispute this for the most part, you could argue we don't know how they feel about the issue. Believing they don't want to leave however is just as much, if not more, of a headcanon than assumin they do.

>And one page before that she says whatever they do won't affect their lives,
Going by all of the print works, yes it does.

>I also forgot about the newest CoLA and found this in it, neat. Youkai arguing against killing humans.
Out of sheer practicality. With the added caveat that it still happens. Meaning gensokyo, as a place, is responsible for mass murder.

Gensokyo is literally not one hair better than most actual murderous dictatorships, probably worse in fact since at least those people have more amenities.

>>46490997
>their massive dislike in Gensokyo
Show me the villager's massive dislike for Gensokyo.

Mucho texto

>>46491027
>Fortune Teller.
>Keine's article in Bohemia.
>Everybody's attitude towards Youkai in every manga and other printwork.
>The old man briefly almost having a panic attack just realizing the truth.
>The monks that left the human village to try and improve themselves (And got killed for it).
Meanwhile evidence that they like Gensokyo is...
Uh...

>>46491531
FT doesn't want to leave Gensokyo just live as a youkai in the forest, he doesn't even want to try and topple the order for humans or even looked for a way to escape Gensokyo, he only looked into turning himself into a youkai. He wants to go live as a youkai in the forest, not leave Gensokyo.
The secret society doesn't want to leave Gensokyo, they want to remove youkai and rule Gensokyo for themselves (doing that would destroy Gensokyo). Keine mentions that last fact, and then proceeds to complain people don't want to hear about the good old days.
Everyone's attitude is being spooked by youkai (which as specified in the newest CoLA do not kill humans anymore), and midly uneasy when seeing one in town like seeing a black guy at night, that doesn't mean they want to leave Gensokyo.
The old man gets told youkai don't even need to eat people anymore (also stated in CoLA so it's not a Miyoi lie) and he realises he's retarded, also his theory was that youkai were raising humans to specifically just eat them. He also doesn't express any desire to leave Gensokyo, or saying humans need to escape.
I'll admit I seem to have forgotten about the monks because I don't have any memories about that story, but leaving the village doesn't mean hating and wanting to leave Gensokyo. Marisa also left the village to study magic but that doesn't mean she hates Gensokyo. Feel free to post whatever part of that story says they hate Gensokyo and want to leave that world.

theyre all monsters lol

>>46455597
>Miko being a crazy ruler is something established all the way back in AoCF with her dream self showing she just fundamentally hates poor people.
I really cant fathom why brain dead tertiaries cant understand this. Hell I was a lot nicer to Miko than you were despite my ''nun bias''. The halo effect Miko has is so damned strong. Then again what chance did a Turbo Granny stand against a hot blonde?

>>46485609
>Kogasa
she should be at least two ranks higher, maybe even three
>Marisa
one rank lower. she's good hearted and all, but her roguish attitude make her a huge wildcard
>Alice
one rank higher, actually nice
>Koishi
no way she can be that high
>Clownpiece
she was 100% willing to exterminate the moonies (not really a bad thing, however, but since this chart runs on a more... soft kind of morality, that's bad), like Junko and Hecatia. the full hellish trio should at the bottom
>Wriggle
come on now
>Tenshi
at the bottom. celestials are a bunch of horrible jerks that cause misfortune just because they can, and Tenshi is so hardcore she actually got kicked out from there
>Seiga
she should be at 0

>>46485609
I just noticed how low Letty is, ZUN literally calls her harmless.
The only person who dislikes her is Akyuu who basically calls her harmless, but then practically puts a hit out on her anyways.
Nue is also a mass murderer like Mokou.
Also Parse is way too low, at most she guilty of being a bitch and Satori, who can read minds says she has a good heart.
Also Flan is way too low as well, she's literally never killed anybody and is at most guilty of being an edgy child.

>>46487091
>I always believed that if the Great Barrier disappeared, youkai would eventually vanish but not all at the same time, it would depend on which kind of youkai, some which embody easily-explained phenomena like Rumia (just darkness lol) would vanish almost instantly, which those who are more powerful and embody less-understood concepts like Yukari could linger for extended periods of time.
ZUN is all over the place with this, as usual. Mamizou and her whole village of tanuki can't just subsist off of them being vaguely popular in Japan (assuming they actually are in TOUHOU's japan, not our one). Then there's Animal Realm lore that shits all over what we previously knew. This whole concept of belief in existence is utterly stupid anyway, would have been cooler if they just existed on their own and evolved alongside humans. A sort of symbiotic but also love hate relationship.

>>46491027
If the villagers weren't so adverse to Gensokyo, then the youkai wouldn't need to exert so much control over them to stop them from rising against Gensokyo itself.
You don't worry about a rebellion from a people that are content and happy.

>>46495299
Them not being held back by belief would literally invalidate the entire point of Gensokyo's existence, hell it would probably invalidate humanities continued existence because why wouldn't they just fucking destroy the world and rule over the ruins since their very existence is pure evil and love of destruction.
Youkai tolerate Humans because they need them, its the only reason for half of the shit they do for humans. If the gods/youkai ever figured out a way to exist without humans, Earth would start looking like Doom.

>>46495424
Anon, the Youkai are evil due to being the product of human superstition and fear
If they weren't the product of human superstition. And fear, they wouldn't be evil.

>>46495476
Exactly, they are literally created from fear and entire existence is perpetuated on the idea of fear and hate.
Only thing that would change if they weren't tethered to human belief would be that would have no reason to have restraint. Like Skynet on a biblical level
Again, animal realm lore doesn't run the same as Gensokyo, and those fuckers are arguably even more evil.

>>46495603
Anon, if human belief is the thing that makes them evil, and they become entirely unshackled by it.
Then they are no longer inherently evil as their nature has changed.

The honest men from DIPP were an allegory for psychopaths who concealed their malice well.
One of them even tried to rape Yukari

>>46491662
>he doesn't even want to try and topple the order for humans or even looked for a way to escape Gensokyo
Never said. The most likely reason why he turned himself into a Youkai instead of leave Gensokyo is very simple: He couldn't.

>(doing that would destroy Gensokyo).
Correct. They want to destroy Gensokyo and turn it into a copy of the outside world.

>Everyone's attitude is being spooked by youkai (which as specified in the newest CoLA do not kill humans anymore), and midly uneasy when seeing one in town like seeing a black guy at night, that doesn't mean they want to leave Gensokyo.
It means they want Youkai to go away. That would destroy Gensokyo, therefore they want to leave.

>also his theory was that youkai were raising humans to specifically just eat them.
Which is basically correct.

>He also doesn't express any desire to leave Gensokyo, or saying humans need to escape.
He would still rather be without Youkai. which would destroy Gensokyo.

The only case you might make is that they never actually say outright they want to leave Gensokyo, something very easily explained by the fact they can't. Though, even that comes with the added caveat that they want to kill all Youkai and turn it into a exact copy of the outside world. So, it's either "They want to leave and can't" or "They don't want to leave but they do want all Youkai gone and turn their village into a exact copy of the outside world". Either way, they do not want to be in Gensokyo and be it literally or metaphorically want to leave.

Reminder that basically every single encounter people have with Youkai is bad. Every print work shows nothing but negative experiences villagers have with youkai. Has them express nothing but discomfort or outright hatred at their existence. They do not want Youkai, they never wanted youkai, if they could press a button to genocide the entire youkai species every single human villager we've seen would press it in a heartbeat.

>>46495649
>Then they are no longer inherently evil as their nature has changed.
Unless they still act evil, which they do. Then they have a choice but choose to be evil, which they do.

>>46495876
You're supposing they act that way in your hypothetical scenario.

>>46495969
>Supposing
No, they just do.

>>46496098
How about you actually write your fanfiction instead of sperging about how it's canon.

>>46496110
Anon, it is canon. The best thing you can say is that they are still tied to their nature. I would dispute this, unless you really want to claim even the likes of yukari is non sapient.

>>46496128
You are literally talking about a hypothetical scenario where the nature of Youkai is changed so they aren't inheintly evil.
And in that scenario you suppose they all be 100% evil anyways and kill off all of humanity.
This is called, fanfiction.

>>46495649
The youkai have a degree of free will and most of them have let it be known that they do not like humans in any capacity, whether ot not they are bound by what they were created by

Hell, a lot of youkai started off as humans and became youkai through their own hatred, they choose to be evil. And a lot of the gods have contempt for humanity in general (like the Lunarian ones) so theres no reason to believe if the one thing holding them back from total human subjugation or annihilation was gone... they'd just be nice.

>>46496172
Just because I don't like Anon's fanfiction doesn't mean I'd think the Youkai would be "just nice"
Retard.

>>46496147
No... the scenario was that if Youkai were not bound by their reliance on humans to exist they would take over/destroy the world. The only thing that would change would be that reliance on humans, you're the one saying that youkai would be nice and decent if they weren't held back.

>>46496264
They reason they're reliant on humans and ontologically evil is the same one, if they aren't products of human superstition and fear, then they aren't Youkai anymore and wouldn't be ontologically evil.
>you're the one saying that youkai would be nice and decent if they weren't held back.
I'm not saying that you fucking retard, just because I think you're fanfiction idea is shit doesn't make me a cutesokyo fag.

do we even know of any supposed bad deeds that yuuka has done in windows? eiki just seethes about her living too long and says that she attacked humans and youkai with no distinction (but it was with danmaku so it doesn't even count)

>>46496338
It is objectively what you said
>>46495476
>If they weren't the product of human superstition. And fear, they wouldn't be evil.
Not being evil seems pretty nice to me.

And their creation was born from evil, their continued existence is reliant on humans. If you take away their reliance on humans, what they are still remains. A machine that destroys everything but is held back by human rules having those rules taken away from them would still just destroy everything. We know that supernatural beings like celestials or the animal realm beings that even if they are seperated from pure faith, are still just collosal shitbags.

>>46496450
She unironically might be pretty high on human friendship level. Unless you are strong or pestering her she doesn't seem to be that bad. Why is she at worst friendship level you ask? It's simple: Yukari told Akyuu to write her as unfriendly after getting beaten up by her since Yuuka wanted to check Yukari's power (headcanon)

I think what Eiki might be condemning either her being such a hag that it's sinful or her lack of purpose in life which makes her tease everything (something that would reincarnate someone into an animal in buddhism I think). Might be a bit along the lines of "idle hands are the devil's workshop".

>>46496550
Not being pure evil and not being good are two entirely different things retard.

I always thought that the difference between humans and youkai is that the former is weak physically but strong spiritually, while the latter is strong physically but vulnerable spiritually

>>46495872
>Never said.
FT says he saw the outside world and decided to cast aside his humanity. He never mentions looking for a way out, all his annotations and research was spent trying to come back from the Netherworld (which is it's own world by the way, seperate from Gensokyo so that's one way of leaving it, but he chose to come back). He is not aware of the fact he couldn't, maybe he could have found out about it but nothing suggests he even tried. He should know about outsiders showing and leaving.
>They want to destroy Gensokyo and turn it into a copy of the outside world.
Headcanon I urge you to read the article again, they want to remove youkai from Gensokyo, not turn it into a copy of the outside world. There's no mention of developping technology or anything other than being human controlled.
>If the omniscient youkai are expelled from Gensokyo and Gensokyo falls under human control, it is absolutely necessary that they know the truths about this land, said he.
They want Gensokyo to be under human control, but they don't know doing so would destroy Gensokyo and the other non youkais, the gods, dragons and other fantastical creatures and beneficial non humans would also disappear. Which is why they're looking into the history. They risk their lives (non canon now since new canon superseeds old one after all) but Keine was more than willing at the time to teach them so it's not like this was being witheld from them. They either weren't interested at all because no one joined in the end or this secret society was just a hoax, it's just rumours after all, one anonymous statement and Keine just comments on the society as a whole as part of the rumour, you guys love pulling the Akyuu is untrustworthy card, but you'd rather trust Aya? It could just be youkai ragebait.
Seperate from that, every other normal human wasn't interested in joining the class either, maybe they don't feel that strongly about youkai beyond not wanting to get spooked?
The group she talks about with Keine in the follow up interview doesn't seem to refer to the secret society as she says they're "beginning to change", whereas the "secret society" is already in place so it wouldn't be beginning to change. The interview takes place a bit after the article as she is only considering opening a history school at that time.
>It means they want Youkai to go away. That would destroy Gensokyo, therefore they want to leave.
Same as above. They don't know that last part.
>Which is basically correct.
It's wrong, the youkai aren't raising human to kill them all off. They're not killing or intent to kill any of them.
>He would still rather be without Youkai. which would destroy Gensokyo.
"Be without youkai" meaning "would rather be living in the outside world" only works because of meta knowledge. Just like everything cited no villagers knows about the fact that doing so would destroy Gensokyo. This may have changed with new canon, but this information was not a guarded secret, the humans don't know because they're not interested.

In all the conversations we've seen of villagers, we've never seen them express a desire to leave Gensokyo at any point ever, the biggest one is FT saying he saw the outside world, didn't like how Gensokyo humans lived under the yoke of youkai, so he decided to join the youkai.
Wanting to remove youkai does not mean wanting to destroy or leave Gensokyo. In a very easy example to follow, you really hate black people, if you had a button to exterminate all black people in your country you would, does that mean you hate everything about your country? No, especially if you didn't know that pressing this button would also nuke your country.
Gensokyo isn't just youkai, it's all other fantastical elements of life.It's the gods, it's the blessed harvest, it's knowing what's after death, and all of that. Youkai can't be removed from Gensokyo, but Gensokyo isn't just youkai.

>>46494270
The moonies cursed countless people and animals into being man-eating weapons, and have unnaturally prolonged their lives by perverting the rules of purity and sin.
Killing them is as morally right as slaying vampires or zombies after they've spread their infection.

>>46473020
And the fishermen fish for sport.

>>46496856
Do fishermen freeze small children to death for a laugh?
Cirno claims to.

>>46473020
She's a fairy, anon. Nature just does that.
Nature gives and takes, being neither moral, nor immoral, moving in a cycle that goes beyond any individual.
Why else do you think Eiki was so nice to her during her lecture? Cirno hadn't done anything wrong as an ice fairy, so Eiki merely wished for her to consider her actions more now that she was growing out of the reach of her area of nature.
Even Suwako takes no issues with her freezing frogs, as it's just part of the natural cycle, and only a fool would go against nature.

>>46496939
Does nature plant explosives and kill children?
Even if so, just because something is natural doesn't mean people should just stand by and tolerate it, Fairies need to be exterminated like the insects they are.

>>46496835
Kaguya's claim about the Lunarian's creating Youkai is obvious BS given everything else we know about the mental layer and nature of non-humans in Touhou. Aside from the argument that could be had about moon rabbit slavery (and Reisen 2 would rather live in the Lunar Capital as a slave than in Gensokyo, really makes you think) the Lunarians as a whole are pretty much objectively better people than 99% of Gensokyo Residents.

>>46496900
How many small children have wandered into the youkai-infested reaches of Misty Lake?

>>46496971
There's absolutely nothing saying the Moonies didn't deliberately manipulate circumstances to cause mass-youkaification to happen that otherwise wouldn't. They might not had not created youkai, but everything points at them acting progenitor to the system to punish the Earthlings who didn't accept their standards of purity, give their heroes things to hunt to look more heroic, or simply out of scientific curiosity.

>>46496966
>Does nature plant explosives and kill children?
As a matter of fact, it does.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hura_crepitans

>>46497092
Literally everything about the Mental Layer indicates that the Lunarians couldn't have done so. We have nothing to indicate that they can influence the collective unconsciousness of humanity, and their tops dogs like Tsukuyomi, Wadatsumi, and Eirin all exist specifically because of the mental layer, something you'd know plenty about if you picked up CoLA even once.

>>46497092
The biggest hint for the Lunarian creation theory is how strongly youkai are tied to the moon in general, a place completely under the control of the Lunarians.
It's entirely possible that the Lunarians altered the moon in some way to bolster and/or create youkai, in an attempt to keep humanity down.
This is also supported by how Yuyuko comments on how the false moon Eirin created to seal off access to the Lunar Capital, is based on a very old moon, which suggests that the current one that the youkai rely on is distinctly not the same as it was before.

Of course, there could still be youkai before that (and the Celestials and their creation of Heaven by pulling out a great Keystone even precedes Eirin), but it's quite likely that they made youkai a much greater threat than they were before.

>>46497153
The fact the Watatuski pair and Eirin have been empowered so much by the Noosphere in spite of being practically non-entities in regards to human awareness is the biggest indication the Lunarians are actively fudging with it.

>>46495424
Not all deities are that bad, you know.
Especially animistic spirits. You're a bit bleak.

>>46496644
> He never mentions looking for a way out, all his annotations and research was spent trying to come back from the Netherworld
We don't know. He might have tried and failed. Assuming otherwise is a headcanon.

> He is not aware of the fact he couldn't,
What do you mean "He's not aware?" are you trying to claim the barrier is a mystery? Every local knows it exists.

>but they don't know doing so would destroy Gensokyo and the other non youkais, the gods, dragons and other fantastical creatures and beneficial non humans would also disappear.
Headcanon, they don't mention not knowing about it nor does Keine mention it. Most likely they do not care and would favor Youkai genocide over gods and dragons.

>maybe they don't feel that strongly about youkai beyond not wanting to get spooked?
Or maybe they are beaten down and under constant espionage. you know, actual canon behavior we are shown obvious.

>They don't know that last part.
Headcanon.

>It's wrong, the youkai aren't raising human to kill them all off.
He's correct that they are raising them as food.

>Just like everything cited no villagers knows about the fact that doing so would destroy Gensokyo.
What warped nonsense logic is this? We know they love the outside world, we know they want to genocide Youkai. They do not care about Gensokyo. Nothing implies as much, and everything implies most of them would eagerly welcome total youkai genocide. At best they are apathetic and wouldn't shed a single tear if Gensokyo would go away.

> does that mean you hate everything about your country?
No human villager in any of the print work, other than arguably Kosuzu, shows any fondness for Gensokyo. Again, at best you can argue they are totally apathetic about Gensokyo as a place. They just hate Youkai and like the outside world.

> it's all other fantastical elements of life.I
All of them are bad, frankly. Either way however, Humans are never show caring about them one bit. Meanwhile, their love of the outside world and desire to genocide youkai is mentioned frequently.

>>46497210
>Not all deities are that bad,
NTA, but their existence is a net negative and humanity should do away with them.

>>46497268
nta
Since both are products of human imagination by reducing human imagination you could shrink their influence at the source.
Good thing the future of Gensokyo's earth does seem to be on this with fantasy growing even more dim.

>>46497264
>Assuming otherwise is a headcanon.
Assuming he did is headcanon as well, even more so I'd say, as he never mentions immediatly looking for a way to transcend humanity as opposed to "leaving the village" or "leaving this world"
>"He's not aware?"
He's not aware there is no way for him to leave the barrier. He should know passage through the barrier is possible, what he doesn't know is that only a select few can under special circumstances. I'm not sure when the FT teller chapters came out, but if it was around the time of ULiL he should know Sumireko can project herself, maybe he as an actual magician can do something more, but there's no mention of trying.
>Headcanon, they don't mention not knowing about it nor does Keine mention it. Most likely they do not care and would favor Youkai genocide over gods and dragons.
Keine mentions Gensokyo collapsing. Gensokyo includes all the others
>If that give-and-take balance is destroyed, Gensokyo would collapse overnight.
>Or maybe they are beaten down and under constant espionage. you know, actual canon behavior we are shown obvious.
Or maybe they didn't go to the Keine school that she opened specifically to inform them because they didn't care?
>Headcanon.
See Keine article where humans don't know about the history and rules of Gensokyo
>He's correct that they are raising them as food.
No he's not. They are not raising them, they subsist off of them. That's different. They're not actively messing with the population count.
>We know they love the outside world
We know they really like hearing about the outside world. I love Japan and learning about it, but I would never move there. It's the same logic.
>At best they are apathetic and wouldn't shed a single tear if Gensokyo would go away.
Headcanon. You'd think the lore would mention any humans looking for any way out by now if they really truly hated it, but no one is even mentioned to have tried or thought to.
>All of them are bad, frankly.
No they're not. You just happen to see the bad ones because they're the ones causing incidents. The rest is so called background elements.

Jesus there are so many walls of text in here that we could build another great wall of china.

>>46496900
The small child of the village will let the small child of the outside get eaten for the same.

fucking cutesokyofags hijacking a thread

There are no “good” 2hus all are out for their own self interests

>>46498037
Perhaps the same could be said for all humans.

would youkai be fearful of an artificial intelligence? it doesn't have a soul, doesn't feel pain, and can't feel fear.

>>46498113
Shintoism, which is canon to Touhou, is an animast religion.
In essence all things possess a spirit of sorts, as this would include an AI, they would not be soulless in Touhou.
Not to mention Shikis act as magic AIs so neither the concept nor application of such technologies is foreign to the supernatural world.
For canon, Rinnosuke says it's impressive humans have managed to tame such creatures after Sumi gives him an overenthusiastic and flawed speech about the subject.
So I doubt they would change much, they might even contribute to the eventual reemergence of Youkai is the terror and superstition around them manages to birth an Urban Legend which could fully form into a new age Youkai.

>>46497180
You clearly didn't read Cage either. Eirin and Toyohime's abilities simply come from intellect and quantum fuckery, while Yorihime is simply a matter of actual skill with a technique that literally any Miko can use.

>>46496564
You didn’t say pure evil, you just said they wouldn’t be evil which is clearly not true by any metric we judge youkai by. Even the nicer ones got mountains of baggage, faith or not.
>>46497210
Honestly with the way ZUN’s been writing the dieties I really don’t think there any good deities in Touhou, the very best you can get is ambivalent to mildly rude at best. I mean if any are actually virtuous they don’t seem to be doing jack shit to help the people that actually need help.

>>46497153
Doesn't the fact that the Moon Rabbits were sculpted into human form using methods suspiciously similar to centennial animals becoming youkai indicate they're capable of gaming the system?

>>46485609
not sure if bait or extremely mentally retarded
besides the top few and some of the more one dimensional characters not a single one here is right if this is really about friendliness towards humans
man, there must have been some real effort put into being THIS wrong

>>46496900
When they're children of a race that kills, eats, and does other unspeakable things to fairies for fun, you would feel a bit less empathy for the Jaundy-spawn too.
Though Cirno isn't just that way with human children, she does it to fellow fairies, because fellow fairies have almost killed her several times.

>>46497153
>Eirin all exist specifically because of the mental layer
>Eirin and Toyohime's abilities simply come from intellect and quantum fuckery
Do you mean to say Eirin's abilities come from intellect and quantum fuckery 'to' manipulate the mental layer?

>>46499338
I'm not entirely sure what you're trying to say here anom, but if you mean the fact that the rabbits look like people, that's true of pretty much all non-humans in Touhou, though it's implied to be a more modern thing. We don't have a clear answer on why it is, since the closest thing to an answer we get is from Byakuren in SoPM saying youkai are no longer limited by human imagination, which we know is bunk, and considering how much she shills for youkai in the rest of that very chapter, clearly something she's just saying to earn good girl points with the established players in Gensokyo.
More likely it has to do with the fact that a lot of youkai can take on a human form, even in the original Japanese Shinto Myths, and since the Moon Rabbits, to the best of my knowledge, were originally Earth Rabbits, they should generally possess the same capabilities as any other Youkai Rabbit.
>>46499890
It doesn't seem to necessarily be quite as limited to the mental layer, but seeing how Toyohime is able to hijack Yukari's gaps with it, and that some of Yukari's spell cards reference quantum mechanics, it can be assumed that Yukari's gaps operate on a similar principle. The actual chapter of Cage that mentions it honestly makes it sound like ZUN had recently played BlazBlue and figured giving these characters Phenomena Intervention abilities sounded neat.

>>46497561
>Assuming he did is headcanon as well
Yes, which is why I don't do that. I say he MIGHT have tried and failed.

>He's not aware there is no way for him to leave the barrier
Yes, he is. Everybody in Gensokyo is.

>what he doesn't know is that only a select few can under special circumstances.
Again, yes he does. Everybody in Gensokyo knows that outsiders, and ONLY outsiders, can leave if they visit the Hakurei Shrine.

>Keine mentions Gensokyo collapsing.
She does not mention the gods dying out as a result. Nor is there any indication that this is a mystery to the human villagers.

>Or maybe they didn't go to the Keine school that she opened specifically to inform them because they didn't care?
Again, headcanon. There is no indication if they did or did not go to that school. All that is said is that her school got few visitors, mostly because humans are too busy on average. Presumably the people running the historical society are not.

>See Keine article where humans don't know about the history and rules of Gensokyo
History, yes. Rules, no.

>That's different.
Not really. Though at best I would say it just makes them parasites, which is even worse.

>We know they really like hearing about the outside world.
Not just that. They love everything from the outside world. Any trend they learn about they eagerly embrace to the point of wiping out entire population of Youkai.

>You'd think the lore would mention any humans looking for any way out by now if they really truly hated it
There isn't any lore mentioning them NOT trying to leave either. Which is the best case you can make, and pretty easily explained. Nor does that contradict what I said anyway. Apathy is a two way street.

>The rest is so called background elements.
Therefore a unknown and most likely bad.

I wonder if it's still those two korean guys who really need to just kiss already sending the walls of text

>>46500704
I just want him to stop making up shit about the human villagers being totally okay with Gensokyo because it's morally disgusting and intellectually lazy. It's literally like pretending people living in 1984 are happy because it's never mentioned or shown they want to escape.

>>46500704
Where is this meme coming from? Some guy posted his korean friend's opinion on this, how did it get mutated into "it's all koreans"?

>>46500718
It's because this conversation is identical to a person defending North Korea talking to somebody from South Korea.

>If north koreans were actually unhappy, they would be trying to escape!

>>46500730
To be fair, in this particular case that works both ways. Not so much with Gensokyo.

>>46500743
>Not so much with Gensokyo.
I mean, outside world kind of sucks as well in some regards. Still way better than Gensokyo in literally every way possible.

>>46500749
Yes, that's what I meant. No matter how bad Outside World is, Gensokyo is worse.

>>46500822
True, not even the Nazis compare to Gensokyo.

>>46487005
>>46487015
Junko gambled with the lives of a whole city to set a personal grudge against a person who is already serving a life sentence in prison, shes evil
>>46487140
Tenshi is more of a teen/young adult and more humane than faires are
>>46490063
th11 endings treat her more like an animal so I guess this might be true, she still wanted to "conquer"
>>46494442
Letty has the same reason as Suika and Yuuka, because of their nasty orgin and the "don't fuck with me" aura my headcanon assumed that she is someone who wouldn't really value the lives of humans
>>46499683
>friendliness towards humans
it's about a character, those who act selflessly, protect others and follow a moral code are top, schemers and killers are at the bottom
and yeah, it's mostly meme, you try to perfectly judge 150 characters

>>46501974
There's a difference in making a flawed morality tier list and making a glaringly retarded one you fucking tertiary.

>>46502074
don't be mad just because you are wrong

>>46501974
>Junko gambled with the lives of a whole city to set a personal grudge against a person who is already serving a life sentence in prison, shes evil
No, Chang'e is evil. Even Eirin admits that. At no point does the Lunar Sage, who is notoriously sociopathic even by Lunarian standards, claim that Junko is in the wrong for hating Chang'e so much.
The Lunarians didn't even imprison Chang'e for this; they only care that she drank the Hourai Elixir, and want to use her to control the moon rabbits, who are all under her command for reasons not elaborated upon.
With their refusal to extradite Chang'e to Junko, they're effectively sheltering a monster for their own gain.

Nor does Junko ever gamble with the Lunar Capital. She is engaged in open warfare with a very specific goal, and the Lunarians (who keep Junko's existence a secret even from their own people) could end it by relinquishing Chang'e and allowing justice to happen.
But they adamantly refuse because they don't want to give up control. Instead they were the ones who gambled with Gensokyo (an involved third party) and threatened the lives of thousands of innocent people just so they wouldn't have to take responsibility for their own deeds.

The Lunarians are the evil ones. Junko is pure and on the side of justice.

>>46502541
what would even Junko do to Chang'e, she is immortal

>>46502541
>Even Eirin admits that. At no point does the Lunar Sage, who is notoriously sociopathic even by Lunarian standards,
You mean Eirin? She isn't a real sociopath, is she?

>>46502756
nta
But back in the day when she lived on the moon she told the watatsuki sisters to kill a fisherman who ended up their by accident.
And in CiLR she's rather nice and attentive to Reisen.
Of course her most notable sociopathic moments are in non-canon but official gag manga "Inaba of the Moon and Inaba of the Earth"

>>46502541
I wouldn’t say Junko is really about justice, she’s literally pure rage, but yeah the Lunarians are so cosmically shitty and also genocidal that her attempted genocide doesn’t seem that bad.

>>46502586
Immortals can still feel pain… so if, endless torture I guess.

>>46502756
Eirin "Murder Is Always An Option" Yagokoro is one of the few characters with an explicit kill count, anon, and it's her go-to option for just about any problem.
She suggested that Toyohime just off Urashimako after it became impossible for him to stay on the Moon, and it's only at Toyohime's urging that she instead froze him for a couple hundred years and gave him the aging box, which was basically just murder with extra steps.
She also killed her fellow emissaries when she came to return Kaguya to the moon (though it's never stated if any of those were actual Lunarians and not just rabbits), is heavily implied to have killed the family Kaguya was living with, and mentions that if she ever thought Reisen would be a threat to their life, she would've just killed her.
She was also close to just stabbing Patchouli before she figured that she wasn't a real threat and just part of Yukari's schemes.
For all of the claims that Lunarians are all about avoiding life *and* death, their most prominent Sage clearly doesn't worry about the latter all that much.

>>46504131
When your target is genuinely evil, being a ragemonster is the same as being justice.
Plus, she's not even genocidal. She's really just out for Chang'e, and the Lunarians are only a target because they place themselves directly in her way. She's not strongarming or extorting anyone to help her, with her only ally being the fairly likeminded Hecatia, and both of them thought that the Lunarian strategy to hold Gensokyo hostage was pretty inhumane.
She's hardly fully subsumed by her rage, and clearly still has a sense of morals left. At least more than the Lunarians do.

>>46500677
>Everybody in Gensokyo knows that outsiders, and ONLY outsiders, can leave if they visit the Hakurei Shrine.
Please show me where it says everybody in Gensokyo knowns ONLY outsiders can leave. That's not even true. The Keine article even says some people don't even know about the Hakurei shrine at all. They don't know that, and not just outsiders can leave, there are ways to go through the barrier.
>She does not mention the gods dying out as a result.
She does not need to do that, we know the gods can't survive in the outside world, that's the Moriya Shrine's whole plot. If Gensokyo disappears they are fucked, the biggest one still massively known to the outside are fine on the moon, but the rest are 100% disappearing.
>History, yes. Rules, no.
She says it's deplorable humans have forgotten their fear of youkai, and want to drive them out despite the fact they are no longer rivals, and that they should be passing down this history instead. It seems to me like she would teach about how Gensokyo works as a result. It may be headcanon, but the rules are part of the history of Gensokyo because it's why it exists in the first place.
>Any trend they learn about they eagerly embrace to the point of wiping out entire population of Youkai.
That is not true, trend picked up from the outside world haven't wiped youkai, and even the PMiSS mentions trends are only "picked up for a while", they move on, they do not adopt that stuff. I doubt you'd see Gensokyo humans playing football now.
>There isn't any lore mentioning them NOT trying to leave either
You say humans absolutely detest youkai, detest Gensokyo to the point of apathy, just want to become the outside world and they have nothing that would want them to make them stay. If this was the kind of story ZUN would try to tell, you'd think there would be at least one mention of someone trying to escape and maybe failing to grave consequences because it's all le grim, but the fact is there isn't. Just one passing mention would be fine. To get back to your north korea example, even from a country like theirs you hear about escape attempts.
We have never heard about a single escape attempt, ever. We have a mention of one small extremist group wanting to genocide youkai (that may I again, mention our only proof of it existing is Aya with an anonymous source in her newspaper article. You'd think that Yukari "kills anyone would tries to topple Gensokyo" Yakumo would have gotten rid of them if Aya can find out about their leader.)
>Therefore a unknown and most likely bad.
Headcanon, especially the ones mentioned are in relation to the Aki sisters, the only ones you can't say aren't good. We know other gods exist that help humans. Saying they are all bad when the only thing we know about them is that humans like to rely on them is complete headcanon, when they're the same as the Aki sisters and favored over them and that there are so many of them (this is the important part), the Aki sister are on the verge of being forgotten.

>>46497264
To get back to your previous post
>Either way however, Humans are never show caring about them one bit.
May I point you to GoU, where humans go to a firework festival (falsely advertised by Reimu when it's actually a danmaku festival, Seija claims that wouldn't fool anyone so they probably know it'd have youkai in the first place), the festival gets publicly overtaken by youkai in front of everyone (at this point there's no denying they don't know about the youkais), danmaku starts raining down on them, and yet they are cheering the whole time. They love that shit.

>>46450127
>>46453182
>>46453461
>>46455982
>>46456520
>>46456812
>>46462284
>>46465396
>>46472894
>>46479726
>>46480004
>>46481538
>>46483010
>>46500252
Since the thread is over, any other cool Byakuren headcanons you'd like to share?

>>46504363
>Since the thread is over, any other cool Byakuren headcanons you'd like to share?
My favourite one is anything anyone has ever said about her.

>>46504363
My favourite headcanon is Byakuren needlessly prolonging the Urban Legends incident because she stubbornly wanted the Myouren Temple to get the credit for solving it.

Oh wait, that's literally what happened.

>>46504376
>because she stubbornly wanted the Myouren Temple to get the credit
Thank you for this new epic headcanon.

>>46504382
The way he framed it too must have made him feel oh so very smart. Must have a very punchable face. But with regards to headcanon, my favourite one is Hijri recruiting dangerous yokai who are threats to themselves and everyone around them and tard wrangling them whilst attempting to reform them to varying degrees of success as they live in her temple rent free. She even took on a greedy goddess renowned for being a scammer and is working on her as we speak. So glad that didn't happen haha.

>>46504363
She implants bombs into the heads of her "disciples" who are her sexslaves.

>>46504392
???

If you lose to her at the end of Miko's scenario, she states quite clearly what her motivations are. She wants to prove that her method and it alone is "the best" for sealing the Balls.

>>46504422
Much more plausible than whatever shit people who hate her usually say. Buddhist bombs are serious business.
>>46504424
Spout your headcanon to the guy who disputed it first. I was just adding my own (head)canon.

>>46504392
>tard wrangling them
Yeah, she's definitely doing a lot of that and not just sitting on her fat arse while her disciples continue to break every Buddhist tenet imaginable and Byakuren just vaguely makes excuses for their behavior when confronted about it, to the point where she's not even bothering to check the "training" Nue supposedly does away from the temple.
The absolutely most charitable interpretation of Byakuren is that she's just incredibly naïve and neglectful, but that only goes so far, and even then, as the head priestess, she is still responsible for the things her disciples do.
>working on her as we speak
Jo'on fucked off a good long while ago and still scams people, even going as far as to throw innocents into the Former Hell of Blood Pool, which is an extremely dangerous place that even the oni of Former Hell don't want to get near. If Yuuma wasn't sending those tourists home because she doesn't want to deal with any trouble, there would likely be many casualties.

>>46502586
I wouldn't be surprised if Junko could just purify the hourai out of people.
She's got one of those vague "do anything" kind of power, and she's incredibly powerful, too.

>>46504424
>the end of Miko's scenario, she states quite clearly what her motivations are
You mean the same scenario where she states how she fears handing over such a disruptive force to a known power-hungry rival who lives in her pocket dimension?
>That's an interesting theory. But I simply cannot entrust such a mighty yet unknown power to your sole possession.
>>46504444
Yeah, very epic "Byakuren does nothing" headcanon.

>>46504491
Disregarding the slander of Miko, who has been shown at least once to NOT care for power over Gensokyo and hasn't done anything to belie that since, yes, I do in fact mean that route.

>>46504496
>who has been shown at least once to NOT care for power over Gensokyo and hasn't done anything to belie that since
Oh, really?
>Marisa: An administrator?
>Miko: That's right. Humans need leaders to guide them towards a hope-filled future. If no one else is qualified then I would certainly...

>>46504520
Now post the rest of that exchange. Come on.

>>46504524
"Now let me move the goalposts so that I really meant permanent rule over Gensokyo" just because she later says
>"Rule" is such an ugly word. It would just be a stopgap measure until someone from among the humans is able to imitate and overturn me.
I'm sure Miko would let it happen.

>>46504559
>I'm sure Miko would let it happen.
She did a few sentences later.

>>46504563
She did not '"let it happen" because such a scenario hasn't actually materialized yet, Miko claiming right now that all she wants to do is living a carefree life isn't a guarantee she'd act the same way if she were to actually gain power.

>>46502541
>>46504131
>>46504258
mfw ppl justify Lunarian death with something other than "they do incest" and "they think they're better than us"
Though I'm not sure if they somewhere says her wanting to genocide moonies since her plan was mostly to go for Jouga after moonies escape.

>>46504358
>Please show me where it says everybody in Gensokyo knowns ONLY outsiders can leave.
PMISS, the outsider section.

>The Keine article even says some people don't even know about the Hakurei shrine at all.
Which means they wouldn't know about leaving Gensokyo, period. They do still know outsiders are leaving though.

> there are ways to go through the barrier.
Like? Only ones we know about are basically just Yukari's doing.

>that's the Moriya Shrine's whole plot.
Which as a concept was only made up after Bohemia. Either way, no evidence that anybody in Gensokyo cares if all gods died out.

>It may be headcanon, but the rules are part of the history of Gensokyo because it's why it exists in the first place.
And? Just because they don't know why a boot is placed on their face doesn't mean they don't know it's there. Human villagers know it's there.

>trend picked up from the outside world haven't wiped youkai,
One science magazine was enough to wipe out almost the entire population of Yamabiko.

> they move on
Headcanon.

>If this was the kind of story ZUN would try to tell, you'd think there would be at least one mention of someone trying to escape and maybe failing to grave consequences because it's all le grim
We have. That was the entire purpose of Fortune Teller

>Inb4 He didn't try to escape
Because he couldn't.


> To get back to your north korea example, even from a country like theirs you hear about escape attempts.
Not really, it's very rarely mentioned even in western news. Even then, those people have a larger chance to escape than anybody in Gensokyo.

> You'd think that Yukari "kills anyone would tries to topple Gensokyo" Yakumo would have gotten rid of them
They are literally being murdered. They are getting wiped out even without Yukari being involved.

>We know other gods exist that help humans.
No. They are memetic concepts given life by human faith. That hardly makes them good.

>danmaku starts raining down on them, and yet they are cheering the whole time.
Show me proof they know it's Youkai.

>>46504840
>We have. That was the entire purpose of Fortune Teller
He wasn't trying to escape anything, he just wanted power and got rekt because he wasnt a cute girl with a frilly dress and looked like an evil freak.
>Like? Only ones we know about are basically just Yukari's doing.
That is a blatant lie. Sumireko and Mamizou found it pretty easy to move through it. There was also that one rabbit who came from the moon and into Eientei.
>One science magazine was enough to wipe out almost the entire population of Yamabiko.
A specific sub type of yokai, you didn't account for the million others. All of whom have varying levels of strengths and weaknesses. Don't even get even get me started on the Animal Realm.
>No. They are memetic concepts given life by human faith. That hardly makes them good.
It's a weird mix. On the one hand they can represent blatantly good concepts like fertility (both for men and women and for good crop yields) on the other there are shinto deities who predate humanity entirely, including the universe and gods like Okina and Eirin seem to play by different rules than Kanako or Suwako.

>>46504444
>Jo'on fucked off a good long while ago and still scams people
She went from indian scammer to robin hood, as in she only takes from people who can afford it. Pretty impressive progress considering what she is and how long she's been at it. I love how you conveniently ignore the effort Hijiri put in to even try to reform her, ignore good intentions because of your hate boner.
>sitting on her fat arse
Way to out yourself, Barry. Stop getting drunk and read the source material properly instead of making up headcanon you came up with in the pub.
>>46504491
>Yeah, very epic "Byakuren does nothing" headcanon.
Note that they barely give any evidence for this at all and are prone to hyperbole. Let's just ignore her saving Murasa from a life of fucking up and capsizing ships as one example.

>>46504840
>PMISS, the outsider section.
This only says outsiders can be let out through the hakurei shrine through official means. It doesn't say only outsiders can get through the barrier
>Which means they wouldn't know about leaving Gensokyo, period. They do still know outsiders are leaving though.
And they are not interested in learning as shown by her class failing.
>Like? Only ones we know about are basically just Yukari's doing.
Already listed above where we see they're not Yukari's doing.
>Either way, no evidence that anybody in Gensokyo cares if all gods died out.
The fact they're giving them faith on the regular shows they care about the gods. I want to once again mention the gods do not demand it, harvest can still be done the regular way. All the humans have to do is not pray to them and they would be gone, but they still do. Also new lore replaces old ones, the gods were always there and always needed faith.
>Human villagers know it's there.
But maybe wants of wiping youkai out wouldn't be as strong if they knew the consequences
>Headcanon.
Do you know what "for a while" means?
>We have. That was the entire purpose of Fortune Teller
But FT did escape gensokyo the moment he became a ghost. That's the part you don't seem to understand. When he was in the netherealm, he was a youkai AND out of Gensokyo. He specifically wanted to come back to Gensokyo.
>Not really, it's very rarely mentioned even in western news.
But it is even if rarely, and they exist. We have an omniscient pov and yet have never heard about anything like that in all of touhou's history?
>They are literally being murdered.
Some of them were by going to dangerous area (as reported) It's not canon anymore anyway as youkai cannot kill human villagers under any circumstances anymore. Yukari's supposed thing is killing leaders, yet she does not kill a leader who is trying to wipe youkai out because...?
>No.
Yes we do? What are you on about?
>They are memetic concepts given life by human faith. That hardly makes them good.
They give literal miracles back just for believing they exist and asking for them, sounds good to me.
>Show me proof they know it's Youkai.
The moment where Seija that was public enemy number 1 at one point shows up and takes over announcing it to the whole crowd of humans? Accompanied by a bunch of youkai? The moment where Yukari joins the judge's seat? The moment where the "fireworks" aren't at a distance anymore and they can see youkai doing them? The moment where the danmaku are getting aimed at them? Pick one. Try giving it a read.

>>46505152
They also love to imply Byakuren doesn't dish out punishments, when in SoPM itself, as they talk about Kyouko, Byakuren literally says she's going to punish her.

>>46500708
The villagers are all right with the system so long as they aren't at the bottom of the totem pole - fairies exist as something they can abuse to whatever horrific extent your imagination can fathom and as long as they've got that, they're find with being the equivalent of hillbillies picking on slaves while the rich slave-owners run the show and use them as disposable hicks.

They're a backwards, savage people.

>>46500708
The villagers are all right with the system so long as they aren't at the bottom of the totem pole - fairies exist as something they can abuse to whatever horrific extent your imagination can fathom and as long as they've got that, they're happy being the equivalent of hillbillies picking on slaves while the rich slave-owners run the show and use them as disposable hicks.

They're a backwards, savage people.

>>46500708
>It's literally like pretending people living in 1984 are happy because it's never mentioned or shown they want to escape.
Even a simple glance at the wikipedia synopsis would tell you what the book is about. Stop pretending you've read things you haven't.

>>46505991
Maybe he was thinking of Brave New World, that makes for sense for a secondary to mistakenly use in this scenario than 1984.

>>46504363
Less a headcanon and more a logical extrapolation of the information we have about Byakuren, but she'd probably be one of the needier women amongst 2hoe's cast.

>>46505069
>He wasn't trying to escape anything,
He wanted to escape being a human in Gensokyo.

>That is a blatant lie. Sumireko and Mamizou found it pretty easy to move through it.
Mamizou only moved into Gensokyo. Sumireko is a special case.

>A specific sub type of yokai
That got wiped out by a outside world trend.

>It doesn't say only outsiders can get through the barrier
It does by omission.

>And they are not interested in learning as shown by her class failing.
Correct, but that has more to do with the distrust of Keine.

>The fact they're giving them faith on the regular shows they care about the gods.
Headcanon. It shows they are using the gods. If they died out, they would not care.

>But maybe wants of wiping youkai out wouldn't be as strong if they knew the consequences
Headcanon. Most likely knowing Gensokyo collapses would increase their desire to wipe out all Youkai since it means they could freely travel to and from the outside world and interact with outsiders, who they value more than Youkai or gods, as they please. Even without leaving Gensokyo, they would be fine.

>Do you know what "for a while" means?
Yes. It's explained that youkai or humans spreading outside world knowledge become popular for a while, not that the knowledge is popular for a while.

>We have an omniscient pov and yet have never heard about anything like that in all of touhou's history?
Because it's impossible.

>It's not canon anymore anyway as youkai cannot kill human villagers under any circumstances anymore
Wrong. Feral Youkai exist, and Yukari implies human villagers that cause trouble are killed.

>Yukari's supposed thing is killing leaders, yet she does not kill a leader who is trying to wipe youkai out because...?
Because he's using a anonymous identity.

>What are you on about?
They are not born to help humanity. They are a mistake of humanity. A more benevolent one, but still.

>The moment where Seija that was public enemy number 1 at one point shows up and takes over announcing it to the whole crowd of humans?
She was public enemy number of people in charge, not random villagers.

>Accompanied by a bunch of youkai?
Did the villagers know they are Youkai?

>Pick one. Try giving it a read.
I did, nothing implies they knew they were Youkai.

>>46505991
>Even a simple glance at the wikipedia synopsis would tell you what the book is about.
Correct. Touhou is the same one.

If you told people "These people are trapped against their will by evil monsters and forced to live as livestock" nobody would think "Clearly, they must be happy.

You guys should meet up and have gay buttsex and record it

>>46505152
>She went from indian scammer to robin hood
She went from pickpocket to Indian scammer, you mean. She sold oil she didn't possess and couldn't deliver, and followed that up with a fraudulent travel agency that simply tosses people to a dangerous place without any concern for their safety (despite promising to keep them safe), targeting people who certainly aren't rich, such as Kogasa. Jo'on didn't better herself at all.
Byakuren doesn't really care, either. She saw Jo'on as an opportunity to get free labor, that's why all her "training" was just chores and she kept her there with threats of violence.
Also note that she *only* took in Jo'on and not Shion. That's because while Jo'on is not a threat to them due to the temple lacking much in the way of material wealth, so Jo'on couldn't steal shit, but Shion's uncontrollable misfortune would still damage their ability to attract guests and collect faith. Reimu is the only one who actually cared about her enough to take her in and care for her, even though it meant that she wouldn't gain anything from resolving the incident.
Byakuren just doesn't want to do anything that's actually difficult or requires any sacrifice on her part.
>>46505232
Yeah, and that's the only one she cares about enough to take any action about.
Not her much older and experienced disciples attacking people, trying to drown them, or breaking every Buddhist commandment imaginable; only her most recent acolyte; the weak and desperate yamabiko who has nowhere else to go.
And even then she makes no efforts to help her deal with her struggles in the temple and difficulty fitting in, nor does she bother to teach her actual Buddhism instead of just letting her mindlessly repeat mantras. No, she jumps straight to violence as her go-to option because Kyouko was being a minor nuisance.
Byakuren is hilarious and a good character, but she absolutely is not a good *person*. None of the religious leaders are (with Reimu being the most sympathetic), but Byakuren is the one with the most hypocrisy involved, which makes her the most untrustworthy overall.

>>46507359
>that has more to do with the distrust of Keine.
Are you going to say the villagers distrust Keine now? The person they're perfectly content leaving their children with? Come on now.
>It shows they are using the gods.
Do you understand what faith is? It's an exchange.
>Most likely knowing Gensokyo collapses would increase their desire to wipe out all Youkai
Headcanon
> who they value more than [...] gods
Headcanon
>It's explained that youkai or humans spreading outside world knowledge become popular for a while, not that the knowledge is popular for a while.
Akyuu gives the particular example of football and mentions that has become popular lately. It's talking about fads.
>Because it's impossible.
Holy fuck are you autistic? where does Sara look for the ball first? The human villagers know this: Outsiders can go outside the barrier somehow through the shrine, since they're the ones who bring the outsiders there. That means there is at least one way to go through the portal. If a magic user like FT really truly wanted to leave Gensokyo, you would think that in all of the story we have of Gensokyo, we would get at least one, even if throwaway dialogue that sounds like "I tried looking into going through the barrier", "I found out us humans can't break through the barrier so I decided to join the youkai instead", "I got rid of one human who was looking into breaking through the barrier", "I asked the shrine maiden if she could let me out to see the outside world for a bit but she said no" or ANYTHING that would indicate anyone even thought of going to the outside world. We don't. Ever.
I also have yet to hear you tell me why FT specifically set his scheme up for him to come back to Gensokyo as a vengeful spirit to hide in the forest by adding notes to his book instead of staying in the netherworld as a ghost. As yet another reminder, the Netherworld is not in Gensokyo, and as a ghost he would probably have a chance to go check out the outside world since ghost fear is still very real to this day.
We have one account from someone who is even more obssessed than the villagers about the outside world and it's Rinnosuke. The second he realises he's outside he freaks the fuck out and hopes he can make it back. He doesn't even want to open his eyes at first, he's so terrified at the prospect of being locked out of Gensokyo. And this is the guy who's sole hobby consists of studying outside world stuff.
>b-b-but he's half youkai!
He's half human too. But it doesn't sound like he's interested in seeing the outside world to me. And it's Rinnosuke we're talking about.
>Wrong
Latest CoLA chapter, have a read. New lore superseeds old one.
>Because he's using a anonymous identity.
Are you seriously saying Yukari could not figure out who he is but Aya could? With all her zashiki spies?
>They are not born to help humanity.
They are born out of a desire from humanity to receive blessing.
>She was public enemy number of people in charge, not random villagers.
ISC specifically mentions notices being put up everywhere about her, and in tengu newspaper which are distributed in the village
>Did the villagers know they are Youkai?
>nothing implies they knew they were Youkai.
Holy fuck you ARE autistic, if you add on top of all that the fact all the participants are screaming we're totally going to kill you guys enough for ("settle for 'scaring them practically to death' at worst) I actually had a look. There is not a single chance no one knew it was youkai from pic related forward
>Suika is gigantic so highly visible
>undeniable youkai appearance (see reaction to villagers seeing her in whale they can tell at a glance)
>Yukari calls it a "crowd pleaser" meaning they can definitely see her and reacting by cheering
They are still cheering after this. You cannot say it's impossible from this point forward. It's from the last round of danmakus, the chapter right after the takeover. Chapter 5 since you won't read the whole thing.

Let's not mention PCB's intro calling it a Human Paradise as well from a narrator pov ie not opinionated, but I'm willing to forget about it for you because it's pretty old and paints a different Gensokyo than the one from recent lore, even if it happened around bohemian's release. For another freebie, let's also forget the entire PMiSS village article made after Bohemian where it says human open their store up just for youkai at night for the same reasons. Just a few concessions from me.

>>46507429
>Byakuren doesn't really care, either. She saw Jo'on as an opportunity to get free labor
Headcanon.
>Byakuren just doesn't want to do anything that's actually difficult or requires any sacrifice on her part.
Yeah, she just got sealed for more than a millennium for helping youkai.
>Yeah, and that's the only one she cares about enough to take any action about.
Other headcanon. She got to specify that about Kyouko because that point of conversation was in the middle of the conversation, meanwhile with the others she was first flooded with a variety of unpleasant news that left her befuddled and, immediately after that, Miko introduced a new topic, thus changing the subject of the conversation.
>No, she jumps straight to violence
You are an autist who takes everything hyperliterally.
>As soon as I find her, I'll punish her with all of my might (laugh).
>(laugh)
The punishment is going to be there, but she isn't going to break her bones or anything.
>but she absolutely is not a good *person*
>which makes her the most untrustworthy overall.
Kek, one of the UFO endings is titled "Byakuren is really a nice person", but I guess you'd rather care about whatever mental image you have of her.

>>46507663
NTA but I'll throw my hat in the ring with a much simpler breakdown of Byakuren's character. Yes, she is nice, but she's not *good.* Her entire driving motivation is made pretty blatant throughout the subtext of her backstory established in UFO, her dynamic with her 'disciples' in SoPM, and even moreso to the point of nearly being spelled out when we see her dream-self in AoCF. Byakuren, more than anything, does not want to be alone, and after she became an immortal, for the most part she seems to not have much interest in forming emotional bonds with people she'll outlive. She spouts conjecture in SoPM about the Gensokyo existing "because of the youkai's power" for the purposes of propping up that narrative to the village where the discussion is occurring, and trying to parley favor with the established powers in Gensokyo.
The reason she doesn't bother punishing her main disciples can easily be deduced to be the result of a fear of alienating them in doing so. Things like Buddhism and Coexistence between humans and youkai are secondary to that at the best of times. Her comments on Koishi and SoPM, as well as one of her surprisingly infrequent moments of humility show her actual understanding of Buddhism is fairly limited, and when it comes to coexistence, the TTRPG that was released last year had descriptions for the various locations written by ZUN, and it was noted that the Myouren Temple doesn't accept human monks, which is pretty heavy discrimination for someone claiming to desire coexistence.
Don't get me wrong, I like Byakuren, she's easily among my top 10 in Touhou, and in theory there's a foundation upon which she *could* change and grow as a person, but she's far from the most upstanding character in the series, and the fact that she's morally better than most of the cast is largely due to her not attacking and/or killing people, which really isn't a high bar.

>>46508316
nta
>Koishi
But considering how Miko agrees with her on Koishi, I don't think her statements on her are supposed to be unreliable.
>which is pretty heavy discrimination for someone claiming to desire coexistence.
I mean regardless of debatable canon, if I was running a Buddhist monastery I wouldn't accept Youkai and if I was runninf a Youkai Buddhist Monastery I wouldn't accept humans, doing otherwise just seems like a bad idea.

>>46508316
>Yes, she is nice, but she's not *good.*
Kek, I was expecting this desperate attempt at splitting hairs. The ending, which carries that title, is about Byakuren being honest and frank with everyone she deals with, it's not just about being affable like you want to frame it.
>she became an immortal,
Thanks for letting me disregard the rest of your ramblings. If you get these basic details wrong, there's little discussion to be done.
>show her actual understanding of Buddhism is fairly limited
Oh wait, nevermind, it was all along Byakuren who doesn't even know the religion she's always practiced and taught. lmao