/jp/ - Otaku Culture

it's not an unanswered question but nearly all of the PMiSS article on the Human Village has been retconned now. I'm not getting into grimderp shit but there's a lot in PMiSS about humans and youkai being friendly and youkai openly coming to the village at night to visit stores that serve youkai exclusively at night, but every source in the current era (current manga and even ZUN playing Reimu in the TTRPG session) says that non-humans are not allowed in the village, and the only ones who get away with it are the ones that disguise themselves

>>45822771
There seems to be a lot of retconned stuff from the early 2000s. Not sure if ZUN did that on purpose or he just forgot because he drinks too much.
Something else that comes to mind is the whole deal with dream shinmyoumaru replacing the real one, i wonder what happened with that.

Medicine's ending in PoFV.
ZUN said she was going to socialize more and then proceeded to never include her in anything afterwards.

>>45822868
She is being more social.
It's just that she doesn't want anything to do with any of the series regulars.

>>45822850
>or he just forgot because he drinks too much
That's it really. Some baka gaijins asked him about Rin Satsuki and he didn't know wtf they were talking about.

>>45824289
Dam, although in that case it's about some character that didn't come to be for starters.
>>45822868
I would say that paradoxically if she becomes more sociable she would fight less, but it's sad that she didn't at least appear in some manga or something. I guess she is in a similar limbo to Keine
>>45822771
Only stuff that comes to mind for the Akyuu problem is that she was writing from the perspective of her last life and that Gensokyo has changed in the 100 or more years it takes for the Hieda reincarnation thing. Not sure what stuff would have happened for things to change that much tho, but that's just my silly crack idea anyways.

>>45824615
For the Akyuu thing, she herself note that this was the friendliest Gensokyo has ever been and even question if her reincarnation is even required anymore.
Granted she doesn't actually remember Gensokyo from back then, but she's about the most reliable source we have for what Gensokyo was like.
It's a little weird that we went back to youkai are not allowed in the village when pretty much all Akyuu says in PMiSS is that youkai and human are friendlier than ever.

>>45822868
Are there any 2hus that were once very prominent in official work but never appear anymore? The only example i found is alice, who hasnt had a speaking role since 2009

>>45829123
Here's your Alice speaking role, bro.
https://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Strange_Creators_of_Outer_World/Introduction_of_Previous_Works/Immaterial_and_Missing_Power/Award-Giving_Review

>>45824775
We do know that youkai head into the village in the thinnest disguises often enough to not entirely retcon things. We also have Hijri's youkai who presumably enter in to get get drunk and mingle with humans regularly enough that they aren't feared

>>45829164
>Yeah. Special Prize? There's no one in particular. But... Oh, I know. Please give it to that woman who has the nerve to call herself a magician while specializing in putting on puppet shows. If she only wants to play house, then isn't that just perfect?
Alice/Patchouli fags on suicide watch.

>>45822749
>fairies turning into youkai
That's like the one thing that remained relevant, though, what with Tanned Cirno having freakish, un-fairylike power that makes her not just strong, but also capable of resisting Narumi's life force manipulation and permit her to wield mental energy. Aunn also brings up that she can sense some kind of evil behind Cirno's power, which she doesn't do for any of the others or even Okina, so it must be something unique to Cirno.

Wasn't there an entire secret society in the Human Village that dislikes yokai or something?

>>45829407
there's a reasonably high chance it was retconned
I think ZUN would retcon keine and akyuu opening the temple school if he could too

>>45829415
Damn. This could actually be pretty interesting to see in one of the mangas, sad to think it's probably never going to happen for real.

>>45829415
Maybe, but good fucking luck getting rid of most of the old lore from the public consciousness. PMiSS and adjacent lore is so entrenched in the fanon and fanworks there's no getting rid of it. Keine will always be the village teacher.

>>45822749
Keiki and the human spirits have just gone poof since TH17, without any word of their situation. Their worship of Keiki was a very big issue in Animal Hell during TH17, since everything was built and run by them because they had opposable thumbs.

>>45829407
It's probably not retconned seeing it was a secret society. But it's probably dead seeing as Yukari has surveillance up in the village to crack down on anything going arwy to destabilise Gensokyo's power structure. They were trying to figure out Gensokyo's history which would probably lead to a few problems if they knew the truth.

>>45829703
>They were trying to figure out Gensokyo's history which would probably lead to a few problems if they knew the truth.
Anon, Gensokyo's history is literally public record in the genso archive and taught in the temple school. The thing is that no one in the village cares according to FS

>>45829501
if it wasn't for keiki appearing in the endings I'd think that the protagonists actually did kill her
as it stands you basically accomplish the bad end in WaHH and defeat keiki, which means the yakuza can start getting into the primeval spirit garden again
yuuma thanks you for taking care of that haniyasushin girl in 17.5 too, which at the very least implies that keiki lost a lot of control as a result of 17

>>45829726
Anon you know who edits the work and oversees it right? The villagers aren't allowed to know the full picture it's why Akyuu confronts Kosuzu about her thoughts on what youkai are in FS.

>>45822749
>forgotten
not everything needs to be explicitly explained by the maker of a series, that just makes the setting dull

>>45829759
It's kinda debatable how good or bad the ending of 17 was. The Animal Realm is a part of Hell and sinners are sent there, it's a karmic flip where the souls of abused animals can go to abuse humans. Hell's bureaucracy and politics are kinda fucked which is what lead to this whole incident, letting Yakuza style gangs to take over and being weak enough to let animal spirits to come out and cause trouble. So while the protagonists were manipulated into doing the work for the Yakuza to repress human spirits and restore the status quo, that status quo is Hell more or less working as intended. It's a gross grey area where both sides believe themselves in the right. The only thing that can really fix things is improving the way hell handles its affairs. The animal spirits could be overstepping their bounds and human spirits who served their karma aren't being reincarnated, but its not a problem the protagonists can fix or shoot their way out of.

>>45829169
But it still became some kind of taboo while in PMiSS it's described as way more open, and also humans getting invited to youkai places (I assume SDM parties and the like)
It's not entierely a retcon but PMiSS portrayed the whole thing as humans being completely fine with youkai being in the village, disguised or not.
Whale manga meanwhile has the whole premise of only being able to open the bar at night for the youkai to openly come in.

>>45829169
Excellent disguise you have there Yuka.
I'm sure even Kurumi is tempted to try and take a bit from you!
D-don't forget to bring me next time! Please?

>>45829766
They are, just no one cares to learn. Couldn't find the exact page in a quick look where it says that only academics bother using the record, but here it mentions that Akyuu literally writes about how youkai support the village in even the current chronicle.

>>45829277
Tanned Cirno was a mistake, fairies in general were.

>>45833444
Girls were a mistake. ZUN promised next gane will be about big bara youkai trying to stop their women causing incidents.

>>45831186
I'm sure they can read the chronicle but the answers it has do not paint a full picture of Gensokyo to them nor is it 100% accurate in it's details. The chronicle is monitored and edited by Yukari to ensure it won't upset the balance of Gensokyo. Pretty sure if the humans knew they were essentially glorified livestock for the youkai they'd be upset, especially if they knew they would do fine on their own without youkai interference but that would likely lead to Gensokyo's destruction which is why it's omitted.

>>45822771
That's not retconned and they ARE allowed in the village, it's just disconcerting if they're gallivanting openly.

>>45829501
>Keiki
was ousted
>human spirits
are enslaved again

>>45829407
It was irrelevant when it was mentioned and Keine made fun of it as if it would go nowhere.

It went nowhere.

What do you anons think about the lunarian sakuya backstory? Does it hold any credibility?

Wouldn't Mizuchi be able to tell Reimu which god is enshrined her shrine and awaken the hidden god?
Think Zun will touch on this?

>>45834506
>Wouldn't Mizuchi be able to tell Reimu which god is enshrined her shrine and awaken the hidden god?
yes
>Think Zun will touch on this?
no

>>45833842
Not what the endings to TH17 says.
>>45834307
Eirin was surprised by Sakuya somehow, but it never really goes anywhere, and any mention of it never comes up in the following works either. There is the theory that Sakuya could have been the scrapped Phantasm boss, but it was most likely just Eirin, since she is the Yukari equivalent of the Moon, an ancient god, and the true culprit of the incident.
If there was supposed to be something, ZUN has scrapped it, and if his plans for IN to be the final game came to pass, it would have likely been left as open ended.

>>45834307
I go with the head canon that sakuya murdered in the lunar capital, got exiled to Europe because murder corrupts the moon and the earth is basically a death sentence to them anyways. Remi picked up sakuya at some point after her exile.

>>45834307
Some yes, given her spell card names, white hair, and apparent mastery of time and space similar to Kaguya its possible.

>>45833704
Well you got me there that I can't just open up the chronicle and prove what it says one way or another.
In so far as showing that humans provide belief/fear for youkai and in turn the youkai protect the village and ensure their safety it would 100% say that. Though maybe sold in the most positive light possible.
As for if they would care? The villagers are famously apathetic and its noted a few times and only worry warts like the schizo guy seem to really let it get to them.

>>45836141
I assume most of them don't care because they're indoctrinated not to or maybe they are too comfortable to do so. The ones who do end up realising their situation usually are in trouble when they decide to go against it as seen with good old fortune teller.

>>45838595
Honestly, if it's really that big of a problem for them, they can undergo hermit training.
Forsaking your humanity and sperging out like the FT did is dumb.

>>45836077
Sakuya, ex lunarian princess? Lol

>>45836077
I think ZUN just abandoned trying to explain Sakuya completely, considering the possible retcon for her time stopping power.
Sakuya and the Lunarians had multiple interactions after IN, and nothing of importance came out of it. Hell, Patchy was zeroed in as the most important SDM member in their eyes during SSiB.

how old is Gensokyo?

>>45839457
139 years from the Hakurei Barrier since 1885, possibly as old as Japan before the Hakurei Barrier

>>45838602
>if it's really that big of a problem for them, they can undergo hermit training
I keep hearing this argument against FT, and I think it's a stupid. Why does everyone think that becoming a hermit is easy?

>>45836141
>In so far as showing that humans provide belief/fear for youkai and in turn the youkai protect the village and ensure their safety it would 100% say that. Though maybe sold in the most positive light possible.
But you can read it, and Akyuu herself says in her monologue that she purposefully made the youkai stronger than they are on their request. Her "cooperating" with youkai to make them sound scarier is not a secret it's plainly admitted in the chronicles themselves.
The monologue also talks about the barrier in general and how it would collapse should youkai not attack humans so they came up with the mock duels to keep it up.
The monologue is probably the most important part of the chronicles and I feel like no one ever read it.>>45836141

>>45839805
The strongest thing FT knows about are youkai, why wouldn't he try to become one?

>>45839835
sorry about the double quote, I don't know how that happened...

>>45839835
A youkai race of creativity to always have an incident of a month to feed the barrier, and use the Miko as the spoon. There cannot ever be a true peace in gensokyo for the youkai's sake of survival

>>45839835
So, what kind of youkai can exist in a time of easy access to information, rapid evolution of science, and the death of religion and superstitious beliefs, become so powerful it can take over a entire wonderland of monsters?
And remember that when they say the Outside, it's mostly Japan they are describing, so this threat is going to come from there.

>>45840287
Someone like Inari, Amaterasu, Izanami or other absolute big dick gods not enough people has forgotten about/don't truly believe they don't exist in the outside world. If we can expand it to other concept, someone like regular christian god would just mog everyone if he wanted to (christianity has a presence in Japan)
If any of them show up they would be overwhelmingly powerful and throw out the balance of power.
The point of the mock battles is to keep the current youkai power at their "normal" level so they don't get overwhelmed if one of these show up. The mock battles appear to be satisfactory enough, at least to them. Just think of it as them pumping iron.

>>45839805
It's not. What fortune teller did is not without risks as he implies the possibility of becoming a vengeful spirit, but it seems like an easy shortcut for a boost of power. Your alternatives are working your ass off as a monk or priest, learning magic, or training to be a hermit.
In regards to being topical to the thread: something I think that got lost by the wayside is the mentions of kishin coming after hermits. We see a single instance of attempted hermit assassination and it's against Seiga who is already a little shit, so "lmao deserved". In general there's just not a whole lot of information delved into how they go about things, most of what a hermit does to become a hermit is in PMiSS, but there's also alternative "taboo" methods like those used by Seiga. There's also the god of immortality living on youkai mountain.
I hope ZUN does another PMiSS/SoPM thing that updates, compiles, and sorts everything together. Even SoPM wasn't comprehensive on adding new characters up to that point, and ZUN mentioned that his thought process on who and who doesn't get included was based on the whole interview thing and touches on them in his interview.
Either way, even if ZUN never touches on the small details again, they're all neat bits of ammunition you can use in your own stories and fanfic.
>>45840363
ZUN says the aforementioned interview that the Lunar Capital is where the highest and noblest gods live, and Gensokyo is where the friendlier native gods live. So if Ameratsu, Inari, and et al. decide they've had enough they'd probably fuck off to the Moon. Like how the founder of the Lunar Capital is Lord Tsukuyomi, Tsukuyomi-no-kami who is also Amaterasu's brother.

Are there any "touhou lore mysteries" surrounding 2hu characters that you know of, anons? Closest thing that comes to mind is some cut soku content, and the dream shinmyoumaru incident

>>45846559
I think it was in Remiu's LoLK ending, but Tewi was fishing for information about the Lunarians to fuck with them.
There's also Cirno's whole 'thing' about being an abnormal fairy that has been brought up before but never really resolved.

>>45846829
>cirno

Was that in HSiFS? if it is, then it wasnt too long ago, and considering cirno doesnt have many appearances, she will very likely get more of that aspect explored, atleast in my opinion

>>45822749
Misumaru suffers the same fate as Keine, maybe even more so.
You'd think she would be more important, but we've never heard anything about her since UM.

Soo what is Lily White doing 75% of the year? Where does she go?

>>45852639
She dies and another Lily takes her place each spring.

>>45852775
So each time she's needed another Lily springs to life

Zun said there are other places like Gensokyo in the outside world and Yukari did go overseas just to acquire the hobgoblins who unlike the youkai of Gensokyo don't change their appearance.
The Scarlet Sisters and Hecate are also from overseas.

>>45852347
Just wait until Cirno is the mastermind of the Return of the Spring Snow, incident and tries to rake over Gensokyo by usurping Okina.
Or something like that.

>>45857296
>I guess Greece's economy entered the realm of fantasy
I didn't think ZUN was capable of saying something so brutal

>>45840788
I'm real curious about other paths to power in gensokyo, I'm thinking ways other than magic and hermitry are possible simply because of sumireko being a physic. Occult practices are a mixed bag though because its uncertain if the practice only works because of other practitioners existing on the same plane as you, or if it works simply because there are practitioners to begin with regardless of location.

>>45822749
That meaningless CoLA chapter where Rinnosuke finds a duplicate bone or something

>>45846829
I don't think the Tewi thing was really setting up an ongoing narrative arc, so much as it just being a joke about how she's definitely getting in over her head again in trying to screw with someone powerful, which will most certainly backfire on her. It's just her existing character and how it derives from the Hare of Inaba.
We already know how this story will end, so there's no need to bring it up further.

>>45822749
The third god that is trapped in the Moriya shrine.
It was very odd how it was dropped out of nowhere just to explain the super duper subatomic fiber the Lunarians made, and nothing came out of it.

The Comiket 63 version of DiPP is not only ignored by ZUN but also by anons, because it is overshadowed by the Comikei 62 version. Could we take the opportunity to discuss it? it looks even more mysterious than the first version

>>45868753
I laughed when Tewi got skinned alive and killed by the Lunarians again.

>>45869044
Toyohime has a lot of experience at disciplining rabbits.

>>45868753
It's only really "that" important since Tewi is offhandedly given a motive against the Lunarians in SSiB, but as you said.
It's probably not important.

>>45868884
>Could we take the opportunity to discuss it?
There was this old post from the MotK forums which I always found quite interesting, as it considers the release history of DiPP.
https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=17654.msg1145212#msg1145212
Here's the part specifically about the version with short vignettes:
>To add to the confusion, in recent days I have developed an elaborate theory that the C63 version's vignettes were written in 2001 (aside from the U.N. Owen Was Her? one, since the song was composed in 2002), before the C62 honest men story (which was written as a whole, with U.N. Owen, so definitely in 2002). They were the very first work in the Windows canon, the original prototype. That would explain:
>On one hand, why they are so artistically immature and completely separated from the world of Gensokyo. Most of them are rough pastiches of weird fiction that has come before, without much new meaning or creativity. A cursed doll implied to make its owner murder people and take their eyeballs for the doll? An orphan bird man in the circus? Sure sure, been there, done that.
>On the other hand, why they contained nearly all of ZUN's recurring motifs of that period, from Kaguya and the elixir, to the opium dens of Shanghai Concession, to the idea of youkai living in the modern world. The motifs are all laid bare, yet all undeveloped. If I were the author, it makes no sense to write a fluffy vignette on the body beneath the cherry tree while I'm working on an epic about the same.
>I can also talk about how the honest men story was clearly written around pre-existing song titles, and how the song titles work better as a loose collection of vignettes than one story.
>But this is still pure speculation, without any conclusive evidence.
This "exception" of U.N. Owen was her? actually led me to my personal crack theory about the origins of the track, but now I realize there are a few hints that run contrary to it, so I was probably reading too much into it.

>>45868884
zun forgot

What did okina mean when she told cirno that she should stop her rampage on HSiFS or else she would "lose her senses"? Was it something relating to the fact that cirno was about to become a youkai or something?

>>45869980
My mongoloid headcanon is that because Cirno's season is summer and that Reisen commented that takes in heat and warms up on the inside, I think she's more like a fire fairy. If she keeps warming up, getting excited, trading danmaku, etc. she'd hit a critical mass and can't retain all that energy anymore and start returning it. A bit similar to how Okuu lost her senses when she got her nuclear power-up.

>>45870076
If I remember correctly, Clowpiece said an Ice fairy existing in the first place is odd since ice is closed to Purity then Impurity.
So something to that affect might not be 100% wrong.

>>45868831
>The third god that is trapped in the Moriya shrine.
The WHAT?

>>45871233
The Son of the guy who Tewi worked for(?) or at least was saved by in the past, is imprisoned in the Moriya shrine, it's not very important.

>>45871233

>>45872366

>>45872431
Isn't that just Kanako? She is Takeminakata-no-Kami and Ookuninushi's son.

>>45872595
Maybe? But it hasn't been confirmed, and I don't think all real life connections work 1:1, since If I remember correctly some of them have been in universe misinformation.

>>45874868
It's from Suwako's profile not in-universe information, Kanako's way of beating Suwako is exactly how Takeminakata defeated the local Suwa god before settling in Suwa.
>A document supposedly submitted to the Kamakura shogunate in 1249 by Suwa Nobushige, then high priest or Ōhōri (大祝) of the Upper Shrine of Suwa, known as the Suwa Nobushige Gejō (諏訪信重解状 "The Petition of Suwa Nobushige"), relates a story from "the ancient customs" (舊貫) that the Suwa deity came down from heaven in order to take possession of the land of 'Moriya Daijin' (守屋大臣). The conflict between the two escalated into a battle, but as no winner could be declared, the two finally compete in a tug of war using hooks (kagi): Suwa Myōjin, using a hook made out of the wisteria plant (藤鎰), emerges victorious against Moriya, who used an iron hook (鐵鎰).
(Just to be clear, Suwa Myōjin is Takeminakata, it's just another name for him, Suwako would be Moriya.)
Kanako is also described in her profile as a god of wind and rain, just like the real Takeminakata is a god of wind and rain amongst other things, but he's the god of wind and water (as in he was warding off typhoon and such, so might as well be rain) in the Nihon Shoki.

>>45879256
It's a strange contradiction, especially with both SSiB and MoF coming out around the same time.
Kanako is most definitely not trapped at the Moriya shrine, and actually flaunt the shimenawa as a personal symbol of hers.
While this god mentioned in SSiB is a prisoner, and the shimensawa is some sort of lunarian holding field created to trap their enemies, or other dangerous elements.
Everything about it is pretty bizarre and makes the Japanese founding myth more into a sci-fi battle with aliens and super technology, rather than something about mystical spirits and magic.

>>45879404
From a larger perspective, the Touhou setting is probably more of a space opera with the Lunarians as the antagonist faction.

>>45829123
Mima...

>>45829169
>We also have Hijri's youkai who presumably enter in to get get drunk and mingle with humans regularly enough that they aren't feared
The new TTRPG did state that the villagers don't know that Myoren temple is full of youkai, and that there are no human monks there. You can argue about it's canonicity, but that part was written by ZUN, so...

>>45892355
>villagers don't know that Myoren temple is full of youkai, and that there are no human monks there

>>45892385
If villagers can ignore an oni they'll ignore Unzan as well.

>>45892355
>The new TTRPG
What is this?

>>45892425
Gensou Narratograph
https://chireikiden.tumblr.com/narratograph

>>45892425
https://files.catbox.moe/3c1nob.pdf
ZUN plays the crimson slasher in one of the sample sessions.

>>45892355
I do wonder if was getting the Moriya's and Myouren's confused with each other when he said Sanae doesn't like alcohol?
I never really got that impression from her.

>>45892737
No, in WaHH she's not too big on drinking.

>>45892737
she lectures reimu specifically on peer pressure and trying to get her to drink
even in one of the most recent LE chapters Reimu states it

>>45892737
she's been like that since MoF

>>45892355
Unless it's in the sample session, I don't really see where it states that.
It just says they don't accept human monks, whatever they know they're youkai or not is not stated.

ZUN wrote stuff for a RPG game?

>>45897205
he did the flavour text for all the locations, wrote two new lines of dialogue for all the playable characters (they're not that interesting though because he was asked to write the sort of lines that could be used anywhere) and played reimu in the sample session

>>45897230
>two new lines of dialogue for all the playable characters
Like these >>45896687 by Sanae?

>>45897311
they actually left it kind of vague as to whether those were ZUN or not, because the guiding image for the location sheets told us that the text on the left was ZUN, but it was specifically pointing to the description and not hte dialogue there
the dialogue he definitely wrote newly was for the character sheets, like the last two lines of Yuuka's here (this is the first new Yuuka dialogue since PoFV by the way).

>>45896687
If the villagers are dumb enough to not know the other woman is a Youkai I don't think there's any hope for them, no wonder shou for drinks.
Does Nazrin even attempt to hide her Youkai nature?
What about the giant cloud man, how dumb are they?

>>45896687
Where's that from? I need more.

>>45897331
Damn, it would be nice to get some clarification, they have the characters comment on locations.
>"I don’t wanna take care of that dark and
cursed building. I’ll let big sis handle it."
It seems like Koishi isn't fond of the Palace, if ZUN really wrote it.

>>45897331
>this is the first new Yuuka dialogue since PoFV by the way
My heart lusts for the 'ka, and I accept any grains the hand of god gives me.

>>45897490
if it is, that means that one of the first new alice lines in 6 years is her shitting on marisa
which actually lends it credence I think, because ZUN has always wrote Alice as really haughty and looking down on Marisa

>>45897331
By curse she means a swift kick in the gonads. So CBT Yuuka is canon now.

>>45897557
Where can I find the rest of these? I want to see all the locations.

>>45897574
see >>45892452

>>45897564
She's not doing it for sexual reasons though, she just likes hurting people.

>>45897625
Based, I would wife this Yuuka.

>>45870076
Not that bad of a headcanon imo. Makes me wonder if ice would be an anti-fire equivalent of some sort and if the other elements also have their anti counterparts.
Like earth could have air, wood lightning, water poison, metal sound or something like that.
>>45870555
And this makes me think of elements having a "pure" counterparts. I guess more lifeless counterparts would work or something like that
I've been thinking of classifying 2hus by elements for some reason... I probably should check what other fangames have done aside from touhoumon. But I think I haven't seen many fanworks getting much into the whole 5element thing.

>>45917338
It could make sense if you frame it into a Yin and Yang context. A pure Yin side and impure Yang side to each element.
IaMP's vs dialogue has already shown 2hus having elemental classifications according to Patchouli, who uses Wuxing concepts as the core of her spellcrafting. This thread here >>/jp/thread/45271948 has some navelgazing about elements. Touhoumon and TPDP did their elements in the Pokemon sense where it's just whatever fit and were thematic over anything historically related.

>>45917577
The important thing I took away from this is that Cirno is a cultivator.
Captcha:WRYYY

>>45868884
Might try to not rant to much since >>45869808 is kind of a satisfying theory, but I thought that they could be related to the story of the 8 honest men so here goes my silly idea, which is basically that the 63 version are mostly the dying thoughts of the honest men:
#1 The curious one was a servant of a suitor of Kaguya? Timewise I don't think it fits unless the men stopped aging somehow due to Gensokyo or stealing some elixir. It could also be that the honest men where seeking Horai at some point in the past but gave up and this are the resentful thoughts of the curious one who still was obsessed over Horai until his death.
#2 The shrine maiden does a dance to ward off the non-youkai non-human weirdo. The dance could have even made the pierro manifest in the beautiful one if she's the killer. The dance could also have affected earliest risser and even caused the rain.
#3 Beautiful one wonders about a body she dispose off in the past, maybe her own corpse if she's the youkai/pierro/killer.
#4 Youngest one remembers how he avoided some opium in the past, maybe he even met the rest of the honest men there, and that's why the pierro knew he could kill him without others noticing.
#5 Someone talking to the cowardly one after him telling the others how a youkai is to blame for the other missing honest men. Might reflect how they thought the new place they got into looked like a paradise, might be the wisest of the group saying this, and what he remembers before dying instead of the next one.
#6 Wisest one was pretty fucked up? Or it talks about the pierrot pov or some cursed doll that makes people act strange, maybe the same doll as in #8.
#7 The remaining men where in a troupe showing of some fantastic "animals"(maybe fake ones, maybe stolen ones) the remaining men could be remembering those days of crime they did together which is why they keep trusting each other despite the disappearance of the others.
#8 Some past bizarre occurrence in the mansion, probably from the first one to find the mansion there living in. Do dolls serve people in the house and prevent them to leave? It mentions how food is always there prepared so maybe some autonomous dolls serve as maids or something for humans. Although it might be a different house since it doesn't specify it being a mansion.
#9 The most mature of the group bought the love potion in the past which ends up poisoning him. Probably remembered when he bought the potion in the past that ends up killing him. Following the original song this might be a red herring I guess
#10 Most wary has seen the pierro before and remembers that it looks like the "daughter" of the mansion they decided to life in. Probably after the original owner of the mansion "died"
#11 Earliest riser was called out for being to gullible in the past, or he called the cowardly one out and ironically dies first.
#12 Shrine maiden complains about youkai in shrine, most normal one probably.
#13Killer complains about how people just keep going without trying to get a decent explanation, might be some meta comment about people irl.

I guess all thoughts could be of the killer except for #2 and #12 with maybe also #3, #5, #10 and #13 being from the current miko. Not sure if you really wanted some different discussion without joining the 63 and 62 versions but 62 is peak ZUN vagueness, even the honest men story is vague and inconclusive as hell.

>>45922917
>even the honest men story is vague and inconclusive as hell.
Aside from the "It's not meant to be solved, it's just a huge prank by ZUN to fuck with you" camp, the general interpretation seems that the killer/pierrot/Jacket Girl is the most beautiful one, who is thus lying in her story, which happens to be the only one where the moment of the actual death isn't described (it's only a generic "I was taken captive by the pierrot and disappeared).
This makes sense considering DiPP is heavily based on "And then there were none", where the big twist is that the killer had faked their death and continued to kill afterwards.

>>45917577
Interesting thread, might replay IaMP and revisit anything with Patche. It's not just Touhoumon which is kinda understandable to make a lot of types since it's more fun that way if types are fixed instead of elemental weaknesses depending on individual enemies or equipments. Labirynth of Touhou didn't use the 5 elements either now that I think of it.
I just thought that the lack of use of the elements that are kinda already there in Touhou in fangames was a bit odd( but tbf I've barely played any fan rpgs).
I also tried to classify 2hus by "element" in a more species kinda way like god, beast, youkai, fae/nature and so on but having human type felt a bit odd.
(Also I guess I need to lurk moar on Wuxing since I don't get any of the stuff that's inside of the elements circle nor the different types of ying and yang)

>>45931243
It's most definitely that one who is the killer, after all, you don't have to be dead to stop being honest.

>>45932814
DESU the dinural thing is something I pulled off wikipedia where it lists the source of that image as "citation needed". It was more of a visual example of how you could extrapolate and fit elements with their counterparts thematically. With Wuxing there's a lot of funny shit with readings since it was also a divination tool, so by its nature it doesn't have very hard definitions and acts like a guidance tool over a rulebook. For a general understanding you can watch some I-Ching videos where an ESL chinese man can inundate you with the secrets of kung-pow chicken.
You don't have to be an expert by any means, just enough to be aware of it and you can notice things other people would miss like ䷋ on Yukari's tabard here, as another anon pointed out that it means stagnation or selfish person.

>>45931243
I think of beautiful one being the most likely to be the killer too and agree with most of it. It's even the only one to use "boku" in katakana while everyone else uses kanji( 僕 is also used in the songs 5, 8 and 9 of the 63 ver and nobody uses kana).
And if you would pic the original nursery part "One chopped himself in halves and then there were six" It could hint to the beautiful one separating the human and the youkai half and becoming full youkai.
It probably counts as one honest man less since it's no longer honest nor human.
ZUN said there was no solution and the JacketGirl pic also had some text like:
>it rotates and the pattern changes like kaleidoscope.
So maybe there are more possibilities which is fun to think of.
There's also no "x honest men left" with 4, 2 and 1.
And there's the whole red herring thing in the song. Also going by the book the "and there where four" part i.e the wisest one could be the actual traitor.
The wisest one also has the most messed up text in the 63 ver, but to be fair a few of the songs in that version seem to not match perfectly: Eastern Tale of Fancy fits more with the wisest one and U.N. Owen was Her? fits more with the coward's second appearance.
The text of the cherry tree could imply death but isn't nearly as messed up as the Enigmatic Doll stuff. And both times there's a mismatch between the 63 and 62 versions is when the coward is thinking...
So, yup unresolved but the killer is probably the pretty one. Gotta thank >>45868884 for giving me schizo fuel for me to think of while listening to DiPP.

>>45933025
That shit happens sometimes, might try to reverse search it latter a bit more to see if any page isn't dead and has a decent explanation.
> some I-Ching videos where an ESL chinese man can inundate you with the secrets of kung-pow chicken.
>just enough to be aware of it and you can notice things other people would miss like ䷋ on Yukari's tabard here, as another anon pointed out that it means stagnation or selfish person.
kek, I'm the one who pointed that out but I just looked up the meaning after noticing the trigram wasn't the one, haven't gotten too much into it yet tho. The trigrams are a bit odd with the 2 arrangements of the bagua and the elements not matching(kinda like in the citation needed pic having fire twice)
Wonder if Rinnosuke will rant about trigrams in the future since I don't remember him talking about them.
>>45921729
> Cirno is a cultivator.
She doesn't even know how to read kanji but is already at core formation! no clue how cultivation works btw

>>45933166
>ZUN said there was no solution and the JacketGirl pic also had some text like
[citation needed]

>>45934124
Sorry, I think my mind just fused the 10 dead people mystery with no solution from And there where none with DiPP somehow. Can't find anything in the old interviews, my memory is now (maybe) gaslighting me into thinking that he said it in the tweet where he says he doesn't remember any clown but I can find it so I probably just made it up.

>>45922917
One thing that I found kind of interesting is how the cowardly one of the group says he was reborn after his failed suicide, but the number of honest men never reduced.
He most likely never became a youkai as some people think, but he became something he considered less human. He most likely was saved by the beautiful one, the one he says he was in love with, before the rope broke his neck.

>>45941592
Its ok, the tweet is like "what clown? I dont remember... are you talking about the girl in the cover? its just a random drawing"
also the other unique time that he mentioned dipp was pic related (I didn't understand anything)

>>45870076
All fairies need to be able to manipulate heat to an extent to conjure danmaku. If Cirno wanted to, she could omit the "freezing" part of her Freezing Lasers and fire purely light-based beams!

>>45839835
>The monologue is probably the most important part of the chronicles and I feel like no one ever read it.
Considering the tone of most of the old fanarts, probably a lot of the first Touhou fans read it. The thing is that ZUN stated that if something new contradicts something old, the new thing is canon.
>>45840287
I guess someone like Kanako could be seen as a threat, she moved to Gensoukyou, she even is the next final boss to appear after PMiSS gets published. I guess Remi also counts as a powerful outsider that messes around considering the vampire and scarlet mist incidents. The rest of the threads seem to mostly come from other places like hell and moonies I guess.
>>45863614
Considering the note on the wiki's page
> It is assumed that ZUN has mentioned the clone — the topic about the clone was very hot especially around 2004, when this chapter was created.
And the new youkai being born in the outside world in SoPM the only thing I can think is of "clone youkai" existing in the outside world, which could potentially be absurdly unsettling.
Made me also think of the clone arms coming from the future like Merry does, but it could also be from Yukari's arm gaps... whatever those are. But yeah, I think it got never ever referenced again.

>>45863614
I thought those were just parts of an anatomical mannequin that they confused with real bones, no? What Reimu said about them seemed to indicate that they were artificial, but maybe I'm misunderstanding something.

>>45839835
a bunch of the monologue has been retconned too
>The days where humans live in terror of youkai or desperately exterminate them have passed, and the world has become a place where youkai come to the human village to play and humans are invited into the houses of devils.
this has been retconned in more or less everything since from WaHH having yukari's ominous statement about gensokyo getting enough food for it's youkai to LE having the villagers talk about how scared they are of youkai
>Nowadays, youkai almost never eat humans.
Yukari again contradicts this
>I even tried picking out specific youkai and delving a bit into their personal lives, as I wanted to help create new relationships between humans and youkai.
Akyuu spends a lot of FS lecturing Kosuzu about how important the rule of 'youkai scare humans, humans exterminate youkai' is and more specifically about how that relationship CANNOT change or it would end Gensokyo
>In addition, I received a great number of requests from youkai, so what started out as a guide to help humans defend themselves from youkai became, before I knew it, a manual for youkai to help others learn about them. In fact, a number of the youkai threat levels have been inflated somewhat in this volume. This probably isn't cause for too much concern, as humans are almost never kidnapped and eaten by youkai in today's Gensokyo.
this first half of this, while not specifically retconned, doesn't make sense in the newer works, and the end part is false entirely since we see humans get kidnapped (though not eaten) in LE.
>There are few threats to the humans' lives, and they can have peaceful duels whenever they please.
There's been no indication that anyone other than the named characters participate in danmaku duels ever, and even that's gotten more and more tenuous as time goes on and ZUN adds more bosses who realistically shouldn't even know the spellcard rules exist

what happened to shinmy after the events of AoCF? Did she ever return to gensokyo?

>>45951766
Oh, your back.
Nice.

>>45952393
No that guy quoted his boyfriend, I'm quoting the print works

>>45952498
I know I'm just joking since this is going to spill back into the same arguments we always have.
also
>you're
Sorry for the typo.

>>45951649
>It’s just that... there isn’t any sign of its soul when it was alive
>This arm even looks artificial. And it doesn’t show any traces of a soul having lived in it... I certainly don't think it was moving around and having a normal life
The part that bothered me was the first one since it seemed to imply it to be alive, but I guess that without a soul and Reimu's second quote make it look like it was never alive.
I would expect Rinnosuke's power to tell him that it's a model arm tho, unless his powers are trolling him and only tell him it's a skeleton model when he sees the full model.
Also bone models usually have a completely different weight and texture and I would expect ZUN to know this if he likes remote villages and such but maybe for cultural reasons Japanese don't pick up random animal bones they find. Or maybe it's Rinnosuke, Marisa and Reimu who have never really held a real bone.

>>45951766
I'm not denying a bunch of it has been retconned, but everyone always act like Yukari/youkai messing with the chronicles is some big secret when it's openly stated in it that both youkai and people mess with it.
I do want to play semantics on a few of your points though
>Nowadays, youkai almost never eat humans.
>Yukari again contradicts this
> This probably isn't cause for too much concern, as humans are almost never kidnapped and eaten by youkai in today's Gensokyo.
>the end part is false entirely since we see humans get kidnapped (though not eaten) in LE
Almost never is not never, just like almost christmas isn't christmas, it still happens but it's a far cry from how it used to be.
>There's been no indication that anyone other than the named characters participate in danmaku duels ever
But there's been no indication no one other than the named characters participate in danmaku duels ever, well there is here but there is new no lore that contradicts this fact
>that's gotten more and more tenuous as time goes on and ZUN adds more bosses who realistically shouldn't even know the spellcard rules exist
It could still mean characters who know about the spellcard rules could still battle.
> 'youkai scare humans, humans exterminate youkai' is and more specifically about how that relationship CANNOT change or it would end Gensokyo
I'll admit I haven't read FS since the scans finished and it was also a time where I didn't look much into the lore as I was more interested in the Kosuzu adventures, but I think the monologue also says the same thing
>Following that intention, this edition of the Gensokyo Chronicles also establishes emphasis on the fact that youkai are those who attack humans.
>Youkai attack humans, and humans eliminate them. If even the appearance of this natural order were to vanish, Gensokyo's future would surely become a dark one.
It still states they need to keep up the relation of youkai vs human, no matter how superficial it is that relation can not (or at least shouldn't as it sounds more like speculation) change. Though as I said I've forgotten all about FS intricacies.

>>45822771
I mean there are a ton of "friendly youkai" who move openly, the Temple, folk, the moon rabbit dango sellers and Eentai rabbits, the Kappa have been known to show up. The entire plot of Hopeless Masquerade is basically Youkai rampaging around the Human Village while humans take bets.
Youkai aren't "welcome" because they are supposed to be objects of fear, neither side wants them welcomed. The one that doesn't understand fears them, the side that does realizes that removing that fear would make them desperate. Disguises are like that scene in The Wire about putting your alcohol in a paper bag. Half the people know you are a Youkai, the Youkai knows they know, everyone goes about their business.
The emphasis on night businesses is important not because it is night, only Rumia and the Vampires would care to any degree, it's because it is discreet. The only people awake or open areexpecting Youkai. Forbidden Scrollery, perhaps the biggest anti-Youkai/Human work is just the story of Kozusu realizing that the Youkai are everywhere and slowly beginning to do business with them, by the end her shop is frequented by Youkai and she recognizes it. It's like her shop was written down in the Youkai version of that hand book of businesses friendly to blacks in the segregation days of the South.

>>45965712
>I mean there are a ton of "friendly youkai" who move openly, the Temple, folk, the moon rabbit dango sellers and Eentai rabbits, the Kappa have been known to show up.
Reisen has to disguise herself.

>But she sucks at it.
Yeah, but she still has to disguise herself. Not sure about the Buddhists. I can't remember Byakuren showing up, and Magicians are special cases anyay.

>>45958439
>Almost never is not never, just like almost christmas isn't christmas, it still happens but it's a far cry from how it used to be.
I mean, that idea was always questionable considering outsiders still got eaten anyway.

>But there's been no indication no one other than the named characters participate in danmaku duels ever
I feel there really should have been times when people should have done this and did not.

>>45966170
>Reisen has to disguise herself.
Not really a rebuttal to anything in my post.
>Youkai aren't "welcome" because they are supposed to be objects of fear, [neither side] wants them welcomed.
Reisen isn't looking to undisguised herself and if she did she would face zero consequences besides maybe, maybe a customary danmaku match with the shrine maiden. She could run around the village like Tewi and the other Moon Rabbits but she choses not to so as to properly keep up the mask.
It's the equivalent to please where a hat or you'll be refused service even though you probably won't be refused service. The faux separation between human and youkai is self imposed by the Youkai and for their benefit. Acceptance is toxic to them.

>>45966277
Tewi, despite seeming weak, is insanely strong. She wanders around the human village because her luck will keep her out of trouble. Same reason Suika barely bothers to disguise herself. She's too strong to disguise herself. The moon rabbits, meanwhile, aren't even Youkai.

There isn't much to assume Reisen wouldn't face trouble if she walked around without a disguise.

>>45966277
>>45966351
Tewi is the eldest of all youkai
she makes even the gap hag seem young

>>45966351
>The moon rabbits, meanwhile, aren't even Youkai.
>There isn't much to assume Reisen wouldn't face trouble if she walked around without a disguise.
facepalm.jpg

>>45966351
Tewi is old, but not strong. The average villager could probably kick her ass.

>>45966386
This is a touhou lore discussion thread, not a fanfiction one.
Leave.

>>45966405
Different situations.

Reisen is Reisen. She's canonically very abused and if she went against Eirin's orders she would most likely face consequences.

>>45966418
Any human attempting to catch her would quickly turn into a bugs bunny routine.

>fanfiction
oh shit its the guy that shit himself over Rumia being depicted as not a loli

>>45966424
>This is a touhou lore discussion thread, not a fanfiction one.
She's canonically the hare of Inaba. Her story was ancient around the time Japan became capable of writing things down. She literally talked with gods.

Even if we assume Yukari actually is Over 1200 years old. Tewi is still almost two millennium older than her.

>>45966440
Tewi's inspiration, the Hare of Inaba is famous for trying to be too clever and suffering horrible punishment in response. Tewi herself is also established to screw herself over with her own scams when messing with the wrong people. Tewi is definitely not lucky enough to avoid trouble if she screws around too much.

>>45966448
Not everybody you dislike is the same person, some of us have actual respect for the source materiel and would rather have lore threads that talk about actual lore.

>>45966488
Sure, but I doubt Human Villagers are going to pull that off.

>>45852639
In autumn, she fools around with chupacabras in some South American fantasy land, maybe even helped somehow Remi to get Tupai. Not sure about the other half of the year though.
>>45944983
Going by CiLR ch6:
>Watching from far away, I thought the stars were made of clusters of light or heat. Differing from my perception, the star felt solid. A cold sweat ran down my back.
Some danmaku seems to be solid objects so they don't have to necessarily be heat and light, Yukari also tests that Sunny can only reflect light based danmaku around the end of SaBD.
>>45966386
Sadly with ages we only get info of at least how old a character is at best. But Indeed I think Tewi has the highest minimum age among youkai. Unless we count Yuuka being sinfully old in PoFV which might make her even older since Eiki did only complain about Yuuka's age.

>>45922917
>>45941911
Speaking of honest people and their village, one fan theory about DiPP I've seen floating around is that the "village of honest people" is based on ZUN's hometown, Hakuba. The only evidence to this theory is ZUN giving himself the title "Illegitimate child of the honest men's village".
Most of the DiPP theories I've seen have suggested the honest people and therefore Jacket girl being French:
>Shanghai Alice of Meiji 17: Shanghai was under French occupation in Meiji 17, which is year 1884
>The group of honest people "held a party in a style from a foreign country"
>The usage of French word "Pierrot" (which is used in modern Japanese to refer clowns)
>Jacket girl's clothes and bird-of-paradise hat nod to her foreign origins
To make things even more vague, DiPP might not take place in 1884, as one of the themes might suggest it. In the BAiJR Music Columns, ZUN states that the shrine maiden in the title of DiPP track "The Wonderous Everyday Life of the Flying Shrine Maiden" is Reimu. So DiPP could very well be taking just a little time before the events of Vampire Incident or EoSD. What about the shrine maiden in the CD label then? Maybe she was the Pierrot who killed honest people and took the most beautiful one captive...
DiPP being as vague as it is, makes all the theorising much more enjoyable. There's no definitive answer, so anything can be correct. Wonder if the C61 version of DiPP would've been any different from the versions we know today

>>45966697
I think Yuuka is the oldest, but Tewi is a close second. Though, frankly, I imagine Nue should be up there.

>>45966511
See
>>45966461
Now go be a faggot back on your home site, since it sure as shit ain't here

>>45966783
>Meiji 17, which is year 1884
I expected it to have happened right the year before the Barrier was made. But guess that would mean that Reimu is somehow ageless or has some Akyuu sort of deal... I would even say that maybe the hakurei god is Reimu with her memories sealed somehow.
But I guess it just being recent makes more sense. Label girl could be Reimu in a different outfit. The thing of the blonde shrine maiden being the killer is a bit odd since the beautiful one wouldn't be the killer unless the pierrot is some sort of manifestation of her, possesses her or she actually sees a different shrine maiden.
>Wonder if the C61 version of DiPP would've been any different from the versions we know today
Knowing ZUN probably, or maybe he just had the 63 snippets ready and realized he could make a murder mystery instead.
>the most acrophobic of the group
Fitting I guess for someone with fear of heights to give most of his characters flight powers.

>>45966918
Just because Tewi is old doesn't mean she's super powerful, she was just a miniboss without any before or after conversation in her fight.
Even if she was 100% confirmed to be the hare of Inaba, and not just suspected to be, that's no excuse to power wank her as secretly really strong as all she does is lie then job because she gets found out.

>>45978076
See the original post
>>45966386
All I said was that she was old, and she is, in fact, fucking old
Now git gone you cock smoking faggot, and come back next thread
You have failed this one

>>45979185
Fuck you too buddy.

>>45868884
I had noted something while reading both C62 and C63 version. I believe some aspects in the story were written after C62's story, to give more detail to the actual story. Of course stuff like * sleeping under a cherry tree and Princess Kaguya were direct hints towards ZUN's next games, but the story in Dichromatic Lotus Butterfly probably references Shuusou Gyoku's, 1st Seihou game's, extra stage:
>It looks like some strange person has slipped through again. I'd better do something before she gets to the shrine... Oh, that girl... doesn't look like a human nor a youkai.
The person speaking is Marisa, who serves as a mid boss on extra stage, where this track can be heard. Meaning, the girl is VIVIT. Hence, she "doesn't look like a human nor a youkai", since she's an android.
However, if we think this as a conclusive part for C62 version's story, you could view the person talking as the shrine maiden of the story (Reimu or Label girl). The part about how the girl doesn't look like a human nor a youkai could indicate that the girl looked more like a doll, as in human-like, but lifeless. In the page about Alice in PMiSS, Akyuu comments her looks as "She has blond hair and pale skin, looking very much like a doll herself".

Another section in C63 that hints towards Alice is Enigmatic Doll:
>Oh, and I wanted to get rid of this doll as soon as possible, too. But, those blue eyes. Sometimes a black crow carries them away and eats them. Those are real eyes. Because I always put in new eyes.
In IN's extra stage, after defeating Mokou, Alice says "she's interested in souls", because she "could use them to make independent dolls". Might relate to that. I don't see it really relating to C62 story, but it often gets associated with it.

Then, the story in Forest of Dolls:
>It won't stop raining. I haven't seen the sun once since I wandered into this house. I wonder how many days it's been. The doll continuously talks to me. I cut off the doll's head. It looks like the rain has stopped.
This is another story I see related to C62. The speaker is most likely the most beautiful one, a.k.a Jacket girl, who got taken captive to a house by the Pierrot. There, she committed murdering the remaining honest people. The reason why she thinks it's raining all the time outside, might be related with the "dulled sharpened sense" the Pierrot mocked her in C62 story's Interlude. Jacket girl was also taken captive by Gensokyo itself, which made her sense of right and wrong mess up. It lead her to killing one of her fellow villager, whom she now saw only as a mere "doll", in order to escape Gensokyo. That's what I think the Interlude in C62 meant. The Pierrot promised the Jacket girl a way to escape if she killed the other honest people.

Then, the story in Reincarnation:
>It's strange that there's a Western-style mansion in the middle of a roadless forest to begin with. The girl who lived there hardly ever came into town. But, lately, I've seen a girl who looks like her daughter. How do I know she had a daughter? Well, since the girl looks like she did when she was young...
The Western-style mansion hits towards the buildings in Forest of Magic, and I believe this villager is first talking about Jacket girl. As for her daughter, the villager is probably talking about Marisa. The reason is probably how both have a blonde hair and a hat of a witch. The bird-of-a-paradise hat Jacket girl is wearing, was seen as the hat of a witch in old Japan, where Westerns were hated and feared. It would be possible for the villager to think Marisa as the daughter of a witch, since both have similar hats. Though, Marisa's hat is stylised after Western-styled witches.

Lastly, the story in The Wonderous Everyday Life of the Flying Shrine Maiden:
>Lately, a lot more people are ignorantly throwing out things like "It's magic" or "It's a youkai". Such a sad state of affairs.
I like to think this is similar to how in Umineko it was said "you shouldn't stop thinking and just say 'it was magic', or else you lose". Maybe it's an idle comment by Reimu, or a hint to not think the culprit in C62 story is a mere magic-using youkai. Since a lot of evidence show the culprit for the remaining murders being Jacket girl

>>45966783
>Jacket girl being French
Makes sense. Luckily she left Gensokyo, if not she would quarrel everyday with the SDM(most british thing in her vicinity)
>>45983521
>VIVIT
Okay that absolutely makes sense. Would call Marisa extra boss1 tho.
And I guess Alice makes also sense since Magicians don't quite fit into being youkais nor humans.

The theory of the beautiful one being manipulated by the pierro is interesting and pretty terrifying with the doll thing.
Makes kinda sense since the one that ate ham and eggs is beheaded for some reason. Funnily enough only sharp senses and beheaded are in italic/marked. Only thing that irks me of the theory is the doll decapitator using kanji instead of kana for me.

Would laugh my ass off if Jacketko was related to Marisa but we'll probably only see that in fanart at best.
Not sure if Alice would be more appropriate to be the pierro than the beautiful one, maybe and some point she dressed colorful like clown and hence her title(unless it's just her magic being colorful I guess).
I guess the only other related characters could be:
Mokou as she could have just stolen the branch of Horai from Kaguya and has 2 spellcards related to DiPP. But she isn't blonde and would fit more to be the doll rather than the puppeteer.
Flan? She basically has 2 wings that look like branches of horai and her theme. But it doesn't seem her style to slowly kill the honest men one by one, unless we consider her timeout spellcard I guess.

>>45992449
>Flan has 2 wings that look like branches of horai
Didn't even realise this, interesting point.
I've been thinking about how the most curious one saw the branch and I have theorised the branch is there because of the speaker's perspective. Of course, there aren't clowns going around killing the honest ones, but rather, the honest ones see their killers as clowns. Pierrot means "clown" in both French and Japanese (even though French see their Pierrot differently to a "traditional clown"), so you could say either nationality could've been the honest ones. With this I'm referring to whether the honest ones were a French bandit group in the outskirts of Shanghai or Japanese from ZUN's home village, Hakuba. If they saw a youkai in front of them, they would perceive a logical solution of the person in front of them. The closest rational term explaining the person would be then a "clown". As for the branch of Hourai, the most curious one maybe thought the (ornamented) murder weapon as the branch, since he had never seen it elsewhere.
I've been thinking for the option of Mokou as well, as she dresses up in white, similar to French Pierrot. And it's very much possible she stole the branch and thought the most curious one was one of Kaguya's assassin. Therefore, she killed him neatly, though not burning.

>Jacket girl being French
It always bothered me why Alice in MS looked so young and got grown up quickly for PCB. I thought Shinki's creations don't age? Even more if we think Jacket girl is Alice. Then one day, I realised something when reading Agatha Christie’s novel A Murder is Announced (from where Alice derives her surname, Margatroid (from Murgatroyd). In the novel, the culprit Charlotte Blacklock lived her life as her deceased sister, Letitia Blacklock (name basis for Letty Whiterock), and carried out the murders in the hopes for a wealthy inheritance that was going to be left for her sister. What if a girl named Margatroid exited the paradise and entered Makai, where she became more accustomed to magic. There, she took the name of Alice and returned to Gensokyo, to hone her magician skills. Brits lived in Shanghai as well, so them grouping up with French wouldn't be out of question. Or, she could be just blonde-haired Japanese.
>Not sure if Alice would be more appropriate to be the pierro than the beautiful one
I'd say the Pierrots are youkai and other residents of Gensokyo that killed and captured the honest people. In the most beautiful one's case, she was kept alive because she could easily kill other honest people, which she did in the Western-styled mansion. She reduced her fellow honest people into mere dolls, who she killed only to guarantee her escape.
In C62's Reincarnation, the most wary one suspected one of his two companions to be the killer, which he guessed correctly as he saw this killer nail him to the tree. But the reason why this killer, the most cowardly one (who was also reborn) couldn't remember about, was because he was being controlled against his will, like puppet. He was probably drugged with the last night's meal and use to carry on the nailing, without the real culprit being found out. The culprit being the most beautiful one. She conveniently drugged everyone's meals and coffee, and later controlled the most cowardly one's body. That would explain how the most wary one's room door was unlocked easily, the most beautiful one had a key for it. All this boils down to how the most beautiful one was able to control puppets, similar to Alice.

>>45996549
HOWEVER, concluding the mystery and saying the culprit was Alice isn't the only option. There's another character who has an ominous background and is capable of cold-bloodedly killing people: Sakuya.
Sakuya has several Spell Cards that reference killing and dolls. One I want to point out being "Jack the Ludo Bile". Ludo Bile is the plant Atropa belladonna in Bulgarian slang. Same belladonna plant has been used as tool for murder in Agatha Christie’s novel Greenshaw’s Folly. Belladonna plants cause hallucinations and delirium when indigested a few, but can be deadly when used a lot. This fits pretty well to the murder which happened during the story of The Witch of Love Potion, where the honest person drinking coffee tasted it sweeter than usual, with seeing a hallucination of an imaginary Pierrot, who he fell love with and died.
Speaking of making food and brewing coffee, would Alice be capable of doing that? Who would be better fit to make breakfast than an experienced maid? Although, the one who made the food and drinks was never said in the story of DiPP, the honest ones took it naïvely granted. Same way, Flandre states in her personal profile that she doesn’t know who makes her the food (consisting of human flesh and intestines), but there’s no one else in Scarlet Devil Mansion that would do it other than Sakuya, the head maid of the mansion.
Looking at Sakuya’s personality, she’s cold towards other humans and she already has background of killing people, so it wouldn’t be impossible for her to just kill everyone else and move on, like what Jacket girl did in DiPP. This actually fits really well to how the Pierrot taunts the “most beautiful of the honest ones” to make her kill others in order to save herself. If we take in the comment from Expiation "Honest Man's Death" spell card, you can get understandable dialogue:
Pierrot: >You were way too spineless. Don't you understand the saying that honesty doesn't pay?
Jacket girl: >Woe, how foolish the honest man seems. Yet know this: the only one whose eyes perceive him as foolish are the liar's. In truth, they are the ones most handsomely rewarded. Even in death.
Pierrot: >Don't you think that sharpened sense from long ago has dulled with such a peaceful lifestyle? Don't you want to hear the bustle of the city once again? Don't you miss the fortune and prosperity?
Jacket girl (explaining about herself) >I ended up in a group of thieves with everyone, like the old days, despite wanting to fix my life. Upon finishing my job, I started preparing breakfast and waited for the dawn.
It clearly shows Jacket girl was killing her companions against her will, but she was ordered to do so, if she wanted to return home and escape the "pseudo paradise". The whole theme of "lies" is really relevant through the story. Honest ones couldn't understand what they were seeing (youkai/Pierrots) and everything they were granted were only a part of plot to kill them off. Even as for his last words the most cowardly one said he didn't "have any attachments left to such a world full of liars". Youkai are the liars in this case, as they can benefit even from the dead honest people, as food.
Of course, the Sakuya theory has many plot holes, her blonde hair and connection to SDM. You could say her hair turned grey due to some circumstances, and Sakuya found herself serving Remilia, as she exited paradise to Makai (as she said "Hell is not as scary as Makai"), but that's stretching a lot. Regarding all the hinting in EoSD, Sakuya could've been at some point the intended culprit of DiPP, before Alice was brought back to series in PCB. And as IN Phantasm stage being named after "Izayoi", there could've been more new info regarding to Sakuya's past. Especially since some of Mokou's Spell Cards reference DiPP's story (and it has been theorised Mokou's stage was the original Phantasm stage).
There are many ways you could solve culprit and conclude the mystery with DiPP, but the culprit could be just some random blonde girl, who ended up in Gensokyo with her fellow villagers. Either way, she entered Gensokyo as a human and was reduced to a mere killer doll/puppet for youkai.
>And right away, I stopped being human.

>>45996549
>It always bothered me why Alice in MS looked so young and got grown up quickly for PCB
I think it's just the artstyle and the great amount of fanarts making her lolice, in picrel they look pretty similar, Shinki's creations are also a big mystery like Makai in general and in PMiSS she is considered an ex-human. The only problem with Alice being the beautiful one and going to Makai after DiPP would probably have recognized Reimu in Makai, although maybe with the whole just having become a youkai and Reimu not giving a dam it could work.
>Pierrots are youkai
This makes me think of youkai being disguised as humans with exaggerated facial features, but I guess that it could be more metaphorical, clown might be just a liar, or I guess someone honest might also look like a clown to a bunch of bandits.
>>45996858
It kinda makes sense, the conversation also fits Sakuya imo.
The blonde hair could be solved with her getting white hair as a side effect of time powers or intentionally whitening her hair by accelerating time on them to hide her identity.
The problem ironically would be time, since she supposedly worked for a really long time at the SDM.
> And as IN Phantasm stage being named after "Izayoi"
Considering Eirin's profile ZUN maybe had something like that planned, but seeing how the phantasm sprites are reused for PCB, IN being pretty polished and already having some extra content like last words make it feel as if he managed to put everything he initially wanted into that game.
Also extra is already full moon only that using a different way than "15th night" so I'm a bit skeptical as if a phantasm was planed, maybe he said something I've missed in an interview but I think he wanted to give more info about Sakuya elsewhere, but he didn't deliver much in the end.

So I guess we have as suspects: Alice, Mokou, Sakuya, Flan and Jacketko/Pierro being a completely different character. And probably two criminals with one probably manipulated, really a tough case, youkai eating the evidence(corpses) doesn't help either.