/jp/ - Otaku Culture

>>45783851
Evil women are hotter.

you can fix her

>>45783940
I can make her worse.

she removed a youkai who would have survived off the fear and/or flesh of humans from the world

>>45783945
Don't worry impregnation would give her a child to abuse, you can make her worse while impregnating her.

>>45783851
So Grimsokyo is canon after all

>>45784018
KYS yourself.

>>45784061
No u

>>45784018
It has always been, ZUN! established that as early as EoSD when Chyna explicitly says she wants to kill and eat Reimu, or the fact that Rumia is also described as a Youkai that hunts and eats humans. Then there's the two vampires who canonically drink human vblood, it doesn't gets edgier than that.

>>45784184
Please, that's about as edgy as any other common piece of media, both Warhammer are edgier, and probably LoTR as well since their physical realm is inherently corrupted and has to be blown up in the apocalypse.

>>45784219
One can make the argument that a realm being sustained by fear is pretty grim.

>>45784337
LoTR has Sauron and Morgoth who do the same thing on a much bigger scale, not to mention the orcs which required mass rape and eugenics in a process described as the worst atrocity.
Or the realm of men being doomed to inevitable corruption.

>>45784018
By what measure is grim?
I would hardly call it grimdark, but is it a setting where it isn't happy cheery fun times 24/7 and bad things happen, yes.

>>45785254
I agree that it is not necessarily grimdark with the darkest it gets being the outsiders getting brought to be eaten.
Touhou is still more dark than not.

>>45783851
Characterization around this stuff is super inconsistent if you start including print works. Reimu especially veers between being very protagonist-y and kindhearted to being very cold and selfish. It's not nuanced characterization or anything it's just you get these random scenes where hus seem to behave wildly out of character, seemingly just for some edgy shock value that never comes up again or is mentioned again. Characters in general also never show these edgy traits to any real degree in the games which are obviously the most canon of all.

Personally I think Touhou as a setting is interesting but the detail is too vague and contradicts itself a lot, especially when it comes to 'edgy' stuff like whether Reimu actually kills Youkai outside of extreme circumstances and whether Youkai are allowed to eat outsider humans at all. There are print work scenes that say/show both but then elsewhere in the canon you have Reimu getting teased for actually never 'exterminating' anything and most Youkai are shown to be reasonably friendly to humans and several of them are even very moralistic. Humans too - there's a lot of human or formerly human characters like Miko or Byakuren who wouldn't have any strong attachment to Gensokyo's systems or think of them as normal and you would expect a lot of these types of characters would at least comment on it at some point if not outright oppose shit like gapping in outsiders to die or whatever.

Truth is I think a lot of this just wasn't very well thought through and he just throws in an edgy scene occasionally to darken up a chapter.

>>45785367
FS reimu is the truest Reimu, she does go easy on youkai because spell card rules and all, but Reimu is the crimson slasher at her core. She exterminated FT because he broke the one taboo she set for herself. If he became a hermit or something she wouldn't have acted, otherwise she would've struck down Miko and the Tao gang ASAP since they practically did what fortune teller did, but via wholesome practices.

>>45785367
Honestly I liked when Gensokyo as setting was more vague, left to imagination and there was no multiple lore dump manga series and books contradicting each other. Also Reimu as Reimu is closer to your typical strict, jaded law enforcer that genuinely try to just do her job... except in world that hinges on balance between humans and youkais it sometimes means just deleting people or two.
I don't think that Gensokyo is supposed to be super edgy and bloody and miserable. From all the sources it seems like it's a rather peaceful place with youkais eating humans and humans exterminating youkais and Reimu keeping both sides in check behind the scenes.

>>45784018
Always was, by the very nature. All the myths you see, and all religions ultimately are negative in nature in some way.
So are the monsters. It's only natural that entities of parasitic soul consumption relationship and function personified would be miserable and perpetuating it in some way.
Only way sokyo can't be grim (it still will be) is within select handcrafted conditions of complex proportions.

I think Forbidden Scrollery was particularly grim, it's like ZUN was going through an edgy phase writing it

I don't think Forbidden Scrollery was that grim because the POV character was an easily frightened child who fainted at ghost stories.

>>45785827
Don't you keep up with these threads, ZUN is a villainous misanthrope pseudo intellectual hypocrite who spouts dishonest, faulty, and absurd fictitious mockeries of society.

>>45785838
And Reimu was planning to kill this child for knowing too much

>>45785954
I would murder that annoying child too if I could get away with it.

>>45786143

>>45786340

>>45785488
>lore dump manga
Lmao the lore is as shallow as a kiddies pool. Even when you dont compare it to other settings. There is a LOT left to imagination, so much so that you're left imagining what it would be like if we had more.

>>45783851
Fuck Drac-kun. He did absolutely everything wrong and then decided the best course of action was to talk shit. Our beloved Miko should have torn his fucking limbs off before she caved his head in. Fucking Faggot chose poorly.

>>45785851
Is he a nice man or not, ultimately?

>>45790796
He pissed in my cereal and ate my goat.

>>45792347
No Alice... YOU pissed in your cereal stop making things-up.

>>45783851

still fucked up to this day

>>45785451
What about Alice? She was also a human turned into a Youkai, but Reimu doesn't give a shit about her, to the point of forgetting who she even is
Even more interesting is how Reimu says she would be "fine" with being non-human when Yukari calls her that in IN. FS Reimu and her statement about becoming jinyou being a "sin" seems too out of character all things considered

>>45785851
/jp/s been in a ZUN hatetrain recently, granted there's really only like two anons that constantly do it though

>>45807130
Alice, as always, is a tricky case because if she's from Makai like in 98 lore then there is no issue. Otherwise Alice was there long before Reimu started her duty given the fact that she's an outsider that looks decidedly 'old fashion' given her style of dress.
As for what they say in IN? I wouldn't worry about it, Reimu and the rest are rather well known for shitalking and trying to get under each other's skin during incidents. Probably just banter, and even if its not it'd be better to read it as 'I don't mind youkai and wouldn't hate myself if I was one'

>>45807130
only villagers get the shitty treatment, everyone else is fine

>>45807130
Only male humans get exterminated because Reimu's feminists actions, otherwise ask Alice and Byakuren. Sucks to be a male human in Gensokyo, getting opressed by both female humans and youkais.

>>45807198
TH19 spawned much anger, then again this happens every game/manga.
>>45807329
But then Marisa isn't a villager. She ditched that life and lives innawoods, and she did all that before the advent of spellcard rules and the contract saying Youkai can't eat native humans. If we remove Mima mentoring her because she's old then Marisa went from zero to hero by herself, as a young human with no special powers, in one of the more dangerous parts of Gensokyo.

>>45807558
>Marisa went from zero to hero by herself
Shut the fuck up. 「マスタースパーク」"Master's Spark".

>>45807371
>Reimu's feminists actions
Reimu is an equal opportunity evil, clearly she knows how to milk the audience. Is /jp/ a male 2hu board? No! It's all cute girls! And those men are freed from that hell!
You wouldn't a man, would you? NO?!
INDEED!
NOW SHUT UP AND MASTURBATE TO SEXY GIRLS, SPURT THAT SPIRIT BOY!!!

>>45783851
>Evil
I want to agree with you, but honestly she is genuinly retarded.

If you tried and executed her, she would spend her final moments crying and genuinly unsure of what she did wrong.

>>45808429
Why does reimu want me to fap to 2hus?

>>45784219
>and probably LoTR as well since their physical realm is inherently corrupted and has to be blown up in the apocalypse.
Nah, at least LOTR has a genuine benevolent god in charge of everything. There is no hope in Touhou, only the possibility of Gensokyo one day being destroyed.

>>45808447
More spirit energy, CUM ON!

>>45785367
>Truth is I think a lot of this just wasn't very well thought through and he just throws in an edgy scene occasionally to darken up a chapter.
You are probably correct, but I do think ZUN made a clear effort to make Gensokyo darker at some point.

I would also dispute that most Youkai are shown to be reasonably friendly, but that's mostly semantics. I get what you mean, Kasen exists, Aunn exists, etc.

>>45790796
Unironically: I think getting laid and having kids calmed him down a lot. Sealing club is way more edgy than FS.

>>45807558
>If we remove Mima mentoring her because she's old then Marisa went from zero to hero by herself, as a young human with no special powers, in one of the more dangerous parts of Gensokyo.
Well, we don't know if we can. That's the issue.

If Marisa did do it by herself, you have to ask why other people do not.

>>45808453
Same LOTR that IIRC has orgies in god's court and the same god allowing entities like Morgoth to exist, that LOTR?
More benevolent than not, but the term "benevolence" can be stretched only so much.

>>45808482
>Same LOTR that IIRC has orgies in god's court and the same god allowing entities like Morgoth to exist, that LOTR?
Well, his basic logic is more or less "Evil existing makes existence more meaningful". It's a very Christian line of thinking, and how you feel about that mostly depends on your stance regarding christanity.

With that said though, a case could be made that LOTR is Grimdark (Same for Touhou). I think the two settings are reasonably close, though frankly I would much rather be a random guy in Gondor than a human villager.

>>45808500
It is true that it makes it so. But one better be careful of making any moral stances, lest one wants to become a hypocrite.
I certainly doubt most Christians would ever think like that at all. It's a few jumps to evil from such a logic.
But at any rate, the similarities may be there, now that you mention them.

>>45808441
She didn't seem to have a proper parental figure, and those closest to that are all bad influence, including Kasen. She was being taught that sky is red from childhood, there might be no fixing her.

>>45808535
>I certainly doubt most Christians would ever think like that at all.
Isn't that the logic they use for why God doesn't just destroy Satan and all evil?

>But at any rate, the similarities may be there, now that you mention them.
Well, they are still very different products but I do think they are closer than people think.

I tend to compare Touhou most harshly when compared to other "magic is real" pseudo urban fantasy stories. Even the Nasuverse, despite all of it's attempts at cosmic horror and awful doomed timelines, still genuinly comes across as more cheerful from a lore perspective.

>>45808564
I guess? Unironically, I think getting a human boyfriend would straighten her out quite a bit.

>>45808564
if only the servants didn't leave the shrine...

>>45808476
Humans are lazy. If you can get by comfortably well by living as you had and your aspirations began and ended with "I'll take over the family buisness" or "maybe I'll make and sell tofu" why would you go out of your way to powerlevel yourself to fight demons, gods, and unfathomable ancient horrors? You can get by with learning basics and making poltergeist exorcism and placating tool spirits your bread and butter, but can it pay the bills? Can it support a family like other professions can?
Learning magic, becoming a hermit, etc. just requires too much dedication for what amounts to being able to fight good and flashy. Marisa went for it because magic is fucking cool and you can shoot lasers and dump constellations worth of danmaku at Youkai. Not everyone is like Marisa. Becoming a Youkai Exterminator requires a certain mindset and probably some autism to stick it through. Marisa also took her fair share of shortcuts by "borrowing" other peoples work and techniques.
>>45808589
The solution to many of Gensokyo's problems turns out to be a good hard dicking.

>>45808581
>Isn't that the logic they use for why God doesn't just destroy Satan and all evil?
No idea, honestly. I'd imagine truly innocent people and children would be disturbed by this.
It's to say that evil cannot be redeemed, naturally, or that such an issue can't be tackled ethically correctly and truly justly, but that sort of outlooks on evil takes certain maturity and unique outlooks on things that I doubt most possess at all, least of all Christian.

>>45805675
Forbidden Scrollery?

>>45808441
Of course she'd be unsure. She did nothing wrong.

>>45808441
Hurting Reimu is wrong.

>>45808634
> why would you go out of your way to powerlevel yourself to fight demons, gods, and unfathomable ancient horrors?
Same reason people do it in real life. It's kind of a key part of humanity, and I don't see why the human villagers don't have it especially considering they clearly want to go to the outside world.

>and butter, but can it pay the bills? Can it support a family like other professions can?
You're a fucking wizard. yes, obviously.

I'm not talking about Youkai exterminators, I'm talking about being a mage period.

>>45808739
>considering they clearly want to go to the outside world
citation needed

>>45808707
>>45808712
This, Reimu is fine as she is but should become even worse. I can do this, it is within my power to make her worse. I just have to enter Gensokyo first.

>>45808707
>>45808712
I disagree. But my point is that she does not understand. She is stupid, not malicious.

>>45808739
Read the printworks, most villagers don't care.

>>45808761
>Read the printworks
I have. They do care, want to go the outside world, and are genuinly shown to be uncomfortable with Youkai.

There is also nothing to indicate they have no desire in making money or anything else basic like that.

>>45808589
I doubt that, she seems too far gone. But there may be some hope for her children, if they aren't torn away from the father the moment they're self aware.

I don't know about any of you but I thinkt he rule of yokais not being able to kill and eat gensokyo residents sounds lame and a bit stupid for the yokais, for humains to fear you, you should at least present the threat of being able to kill them, I could understand if the rule was to limit the killing but forbiding seems too much, now if the rule isn't heavily enforced and can be violated from time to time it would be better imo

>>45809110
There's abductions and the like, and there's nothing saying they have to return you. So for all intents and purposes you could be dead, or you could be some tengu or tanuki's husband. There's just no telling what happens to the forager carried off screaming into the woods, or the boy kidnapped by the racoon disguised as his bedroom door.

>>45809110
>he doesn't know about Eientei pharma fear farm conspiracy

>>45808821
Depends on how abusive Reimu is.

>>45809225
Yes, what is it

>>45809407
Rumor has it Eientei has used genetic engineering to modify all plant life and cattle stock to produce a sort of fear generating non-addictive drug that suffuses the land with a haze of fear.

>>45809171
Sounds good

>>45808441
I think she could easily have grown with a very negative viewpoint of the outside world and that a word without magic is sad and depressing considering that the outsiders she has to deal with according to PMiSS.
She also seems to not care much about how the weird identical arm bones came to be in CoLA. So she might have those ideas in her head probably planted by some youkai.
Although there's also this point >>45808471 . Even Rinnosuke who praises the outside world didn't want to leave Gensokyo there and the fairies saying things like drinking freezing to death is a custom of the outside world. So maybe ZUN had the idea of making characters look at the outside world with a negative light.
>>45808684
Yep, chapter 25.

>>45808482
If your talking about Valinor, then no, the valar who are mostly sexless in the first place are all monogamous pairs except for two loners, and elves mate monogamously and keep being married through their reincarnations.
As for why Morgoth isn't killed, he's in jail outside of reality, but since the material realm is partially made from his discordant melody he can only be truly killed after the apocalypse.
And after the world ends the discordant melody will be used to create a more perfect world, rendering everything Morgoth attempted to do null and void.
For why Sauron is still around, the Valar are kind of just fuck ups and keep accidentally blowing up continents whenever they step out of Valinor, so sending the Isatari and only minorly manipulating events is the besr they can do.

>>45785772
>Always was, by the very nature. All the myths you see, and all religions ultimately are negative in nature in some way.
So that means they're also always positive in some way

>>45807130
This rule only applies to the villagers.

>>45810417
I appreciate elaborate response.

>>45811726
One does not necessarily ensure the other, but that is true.
Not counting hypotheticals where religions may be just spirit mine systems to sate someone else's hedonism, the seeming overt positivity of which can manipulate you into tolerating it by any rationale, past that point it will depend on your stance on despair and sapient suffering in "pain" meaning, on tragedies, and whether or not would you stand for tears of others.

>>45808589
she seems like the romantic type

>>45808429
I will NOT masturbate to 2hus

>>45812071
OH???????????

don't underestimate her, despite being the first boss she'll kick your ass!

>>45812071
Touhous have masturbated to you first.

>>45784184
Eh, nah - a lot of things were re-established since EoSD, and even Gensokyo as a setting only became a thing in PCB. That, and the spellcard pact, a lot of friendlier characters, etc.

Fortune-teller's death being so memed kinda speaks for itself - it took ZUN 10+ years to kill off an on-screen character, and it remains the only case he bothered to do that.

>>45816253
>it took ZUN 10+ years to kill off an on-screen character, and it remains the only case he bothered to do that.
A guy who was fabricated out of thin air just for that purpose. Nobody really takes it seriously, and if you do pull up your bootstraps, any hard look at FT will tell you he was kinda a retard who didn't do his research. I will continue to meme that he did nothing wrong because it's funny.
>Gensokyo as a setting only became a thing in PCB
The spellcard rules and no eating humans contract came after ESoD too, but it's one of those things you're not really supposed to think too hard about, otherwise you'll ask questions like "why are they using spellcards before the rules forced them to do so?" and the only answer is "it's a game."

>>45818324
I'm pretty sure most of the in-universe reasons for stuff is meant to be a bit of meta humour.
Stuff like Reimu's ablity being to never lose (Because she just keeps retrying until she wins, much like how [you] the player keep grinding at those 1cc's), everyone inexplicably being a cute girl, spellcard rules valuing prettyness over function (Because if they were acutally in a realistic duel the winner would be the one who could spew out the most bullets the fastest, nice patterns need not apply) and everyone getting together for a tea party after.
Really, some of these things are clearly meant as jokes because of course nothing really makes sense. It's a shootemup game with a vaguely defined story that got abnormally popular and spawned a few spinoff stories regarding more complex stuff than the games' structure permits.

Now that's not meant to disparage anyone from talking about lore because "it's just a le game lol it doesn't exist", but keep in mind that almost everything is part of some tongue in cheek humour to some degree or another. Trying to get canon sizes for example is never going to be possible beyond what ZUN wrote in that one email, because they change constantly to match the situation the way the artist wanted to draw them.

>>45816136
Bullshit. They can't just touch themselves thinking about fat and ugly 30 year old men

>>45816253
Technically, Gensokyo being some super isolated fantasy land started in DiPP, and you can also argue that this is the first time it was called Gensokyo too. EoSD was just a extension of PC98 games, where the setting takes place in a isolated area in Japan that is surrounded by mountains, and where the only human settlement was the Hakurei Shrine.

>>45816136
I would definitely feel honored if one of them did for me.

>>45784219
>Warhammer
NTA, but even though WH40K is so edgy that it literally coined the term "grimdark", it's so over the top in it's edginess that it can be hard to take seriously.
For settings that are genuinely unflinchingly bleak, dark, and/or hopeless I would take a look at I Have No Mouth and I Must Scream and the works of Cormac McCarthy.

>>45820859
>it's so over the top in it's edginess that it can be hard to take seriously.
congratulations you understand the basic appeal of 40k