/jp/ - Otaku Culture

>>45274672
I can fix her.

>>45274672
her problem is being shit

Whom in the hell are you quoting? Could you perhaps go some place else?

>>45275063
/jp/ has bigger problems than people greentexting

get vtubers out of here if you want people to respect the culture

>>45274672
Uhh hello based?

>>45274672
So you start bringing up her bloody past she wanna forget just because she gave a bit of a lecture?
Sounds like you're the little bitch.

>>45274672
Little bitch boy misses the point of her character trying to redeem herself.

>>45275063
>>45275739
>respect culture
>in 4chan of all places
Lmao

>>45276089
Who are you quoting?

>>45278016
Hiromoot

>>45275063
>>45275739
You subhuman retards can tongue my anus
>go
>fuck
>yourselves

>>45274672
>>45274696
>>45275746
>>45276089
>>45278316
>>45278339
You're not welcome here, outsider

no, and (You) can't do anything about it

K*sen sux cox in HELL

The real question is, did she also eat their cocks?

>>45274672
TOTAL ZOUNOSE VICTORY

>>45274672
It's called redemption.

Shuten presumably did worse things and she got away with a beheading.

>>45276025
Ain’t get gonna get lectured by Oni Mao Zedong about shit.

>>45278723
zounose couldn't even think of anything to do with kasen so the only real time she showed up in a doujin he just recycled a WaHH plot point

>>45279786
Was Kasen in canon ever tempted to eat human meat?

>>45276025
>>45276081
>>45279413
It doesn’t count as “redemption” when she’s only nice now that all her evil got sucked out. Easy to be good when it’s forced upon you.

If it was up to her real self she’d still be taking little boys and eating their corpses

>>45279834
Then what would suffice as redemption for you?

Also, how are the likes of Suika any better?

>>45279842
suika lacks pretension

>>45279842
Self awareness and overcoming your own evil through understanding what you did was wrong. Ain’t redemption if you can’t overcome yourself on your own terms

All the youkai are evil, but at least they’re honest about what they are, Suika would tell you to your face how much she would kill you if you pushed her.

>>45279816
No but the meeting between her and Yukari where Yukari tempts her to join the "Youkai side" does happen in WaHH, but in WaHH she immediately refuses where here she doesn't answer due to the 'mu.

>>45279834
What if how her evil gets contained in her left arm was her doing?

>>45279888
Nah cause she states that she only felt bad for the deeds after the evil was forced out of her, she has no feelings of regret til later.

And honestly it’s debatable whether she even actually feels bad or she just didn’t feel like doing bad things anymore. She never really shown to be that bent out of shape over her arm still literally killing people.

>>45279848
Does she? She's very chill and seemingly values the lives of human. She doesn't act much like a Oni.

>>45279861
>but at least they’re honest about what they are,
They kind of aren't. Even ignoring the literal shapeshifting they all seem to engage in on some levels. Most of them actively refuse to admit their nature. They delude themselves and imitate humans, while also claiming to be superior. That's not even getting into the likes of Yukari.

>Suika would tell you to your face how much she would kill you if you pushed her.
That by default doesn't make her a good youkai. A good youkai would just kill you because she could.

>>45279929
Oni don’t kill everybody because

A.) They aren’t allowed to kill all the local humans because then no one in Gensokyo would fear them and they’d die out
B.) Most youkai don’t have to kill humans that much to sustain themselves
C.) Most of Suikas interactions are with the main human characters which are all strong enough not to be killed instantly by her.

We actually don’t know her interactions with non powered outside people, but tales from the SDM and Rumia state it doesn’t end well for most people.

>>45279929
Eiki, Aya is that you?
Stop trying to get Youkai to randomly assault people, I know you two like to sperg about how "Youkai should be Youkai" but 99% of youkai don't give a shit.

>>45279982
Onis are not that evil. There is plenty of stories of them being friendly with humans in the japanese mythos. Like the tale of the red oni and the blue oni. Or kubotori jiisan.

>>45279982
>They aren’t allowed to kill all the local humans because then no one in Gensokyo would fear them and they’d die out
She literally lets children throw beans at her. I don't think she cares that much. Either way, my point isn't that she doesn't kill everybody it's that she doesn't seem to kill anybody. She doesn't even seem to hold much malice and the assumption that she kills outsiders, while certainly possible, seems unlikely.

>>45280006
Eiki is weird since that's very much the opposite of what buddhism is supposed to be about. Regardless, most Youkai are still total shitbags.

>>45280022
Oni are weird since in many ways they are much closer to humans than many other youkai despite representing some of the darkest aspect of humanity.

>>45280077
Thats because humans are the true monsters, anon.

>>45280085
No, it's because Oni are literally just bandits we decided after the fact were monsters.

Granted, no clue if that is the case in Touhou.

>>45280093
I assume that in touhou the power of belief turned the bandits into Oni.

>>45280048
Again, she can’t just kill every human that annoys her because that would destabilize Gensokyo and it would get her ass exterminated by either Reimu or the other youkai. And like the other anon said >>45280022 not all Oni are strictly 100% evil all the time, which makes Karen’s action even more horrible and her cowardice makes ver what she really is even worse

Suika is very definitely not bloodthirsty. She's very similar to Remilia, she just wants to piss around and have fun, doesn't matter how.
Can she kill people without a blink if she wanted to? Definitely. Has she killed a lot of people? Definitely. Is she bloodthirsty, in the sense that she's just "holding herself back"? There's not really a lot of evidence for that.

A lot of people forget, but Remilia started the entire Spellcard Rules. She went on a tear in Gensokyo and forced everyone's hand to go against her, and she did all of it presumably (on the text in PMiSS) under the guide of letting Youkai eat more humans . Her rampage was massive enough that after the incident, the Spellcard rules were created.
Now, what does she do?
She regularly holds parties, humans invited. She hires fairy maids, and is probably one of the best employers in Gensokyo. She collects random ass pets to safekeep.
Despite her initial showing in Gensokyo, that's not the actions of a bloodthirsty monster holding herself back from killing: that's the actions of a bored person that just wanted some entertainment. Suika's very similar, if not even more tame. Suika's incident is probably the second most non-incident incident in the entire series, after PoFV.

>>45280112
My point is that both of them found redemption despite being awful even by Oni standards. That qualifies as much for Suika as it does for Kasen. You could argue Kasen is more moralistic nowadays while Suika is just chill, but that doesn't somehow condemn her.

>>45280225
Kasen has been essentialy lobotomized.

>>45280255
Same thing most likely happened to Suika.

>>45280206
Wasn't it implied somewhere that everything she did was just a 4d chess plan to get Sakuya to interact more with Humans?

>>45280398
no

Outside of Suika trying to shill the Oni lifestyle, even though she doesn't hold it up herself.
Every other instance of the Oni coming up, just enforces them as being untrustworthy, violent, and otherwise unlikable bastards.

>>45280416
Don't most of the really bad ones just move to Hell?

>>45280416
I'm pretty sure Yuugi's never been portrayed as anything less than highly honest, rowdy and always up for a fight (mostly because she's barely appeared since SA)

>>45280048
Eiki takes bribes, she's probably in the pocket of politically conservative Youkai like the tengu or others.

>>45274672
Trying to overcome her oni nature. It's hard. Please understand.

>>45279786
He's such a hack kek

>>45280515
Remember the sekibanki doujin, or either of his Myouren temple doujins, lol.

>>45280515
It's pretty surface level edgy. Touhou is dark because it's very subtly miserable.

>>45280441
Her "bribe" is good deeds of a person that literally takes a shape of coin, the thing that Komachi also ask for payment and use as danmaku, because you can't bring possessions like literal money to afterlife

>>45280696
Luckily for all of those Youkai bribing her attacking humans is a Youkai's virtue.
Not like that sort of thing a factions politically conservative Youkai would favor.

>>45280048
I've said this on other threads before, but Eiki is the epitome of Lawful Neutral in D&D. If she existed in Pathfinder, she'd be an Aeon.
Youkai are supposed to bring fear to humans, so that's the rightful thing for them to do. Fairies are not supposed to be powerful, so Cirno is an aberration. Shrine maidens are supposed to actually exterminate youkai, so Reimu's not doing her job properly.
She's not an agent of "good". She's an agent of "law".

>>45280713
Youkai don't die like a regular human, they just disappear from existence.
Also, the coins come from people liking you, and no one likes youkai, not even other youkai.

>>45280773
I'm glad none of the Youkai have friends and that Byakuren hates them, truly this is a touhou moment.

>>45280773
Youkai and humans are natural enemies. Just like celestials and the youkai. Or lunarians and the youkai. Or gods and the youkai. Or youkai and other youkai. Damn youkai, they ruined Gensokyo for everyone.

>>45280785
Why do you bring up Byakuren all of a sudden?

>>45280811
Byakuren uses her youkai like slaves so she can concentrate on reaching Nirvana, and ditching them.
It's a very Buddhist thing to do, and it's not even a joke.

>>45280827
Don't forget about the bombs she implants in people's heads or how she wants to experiment of Koishi.
Damn dirty witch!

>>45280827
We're talking about youkai and afterlife system, dude
Also who gives a shit what actual Buddhism does? Touhou isn't meant to be accurate or preach buddhism moral values

>>45280742
I know. It's just weird since Yama are buddhist while that is very taoist thinking.

>>45280398
No, not entirely. But she did use the events that were caused to get Sakuya to be more social. Everyone thinks that Remilia is some spoiled little brat princess but she's actually very intelligent, very wise, and very skilled, and likes to play 4d chess.

>>45281129
ZUN doesn't even know shit about taoism and he only take the lore and aesthetic part of buddhism. I don't think he's trying to push any sort of antique philosophy.

>>45280048
>Eika is weird
She is a drooling fucking retard. How the fuck does bitch act like a moral fag then wants ''yokai to act like yokai'' never mind that they can choose not to if they want. Plenty of friendly yokai in the actual myth and friendly yokai in the story.

>>45281516
But that's the thing. She's not a moralfag.
Even if she counts as one, it's not like moral has to be centered around humans.
And again, it's not like hurting humans is the only way to generate fear that sustain youkai.

>>45281689
If a alligator, one day, suddenly decided to stop eating meat, and decided to only eat vegetables forever... is that moral?
No. There's nothing behind that context that says it's moral. Alligators don't even understand morality. There's no morality involved in that decision, we can only infer a decision.
It's only when you involve human thought and perspective, anthromorphism, that morality gets involved.
But we can deduce one thing from that decision. It's unnatural for an alligator to suddenly stop eating meat altogether. It's unlawful, as it's not the way it's supposed to go.
This is Eiki's standpoint in the world.

>>45282698
Eiki really is retarded, Youkai are the subject of human beliefs and made of those beliefs, they behave like humans think they should and are an extension of humanity.
And at the very least when within Gensokyo, have reasoning capabilities close to a human and thus posses the free will to do whatever they hell they want and should be morally judged as such.
Although they are pretty dumb, the Kappa don't even think of finding an alternative source of salt until that seal arrived despite finding eating humans gross.
Also humans are a horrible source of salt, although it's not as bad as using them as a source of sugar, but considering how dumb the Youkai are they probably do that as well.

>>45282763
Just because Youkai are made from humanity does not subject them to the same moral viewpoint and law as humanity. Robots are made by humanity, yet they have different laws attached to them.
Youkai don't behave like humans either: not normally. You've likely read FS. You know that youkai that's newly born/transported into Gensokyo are very likely to cause immediate trouble. This isn't even just on FS, this is even seen on the games and other printwork, especially with the Vampire Incident mentioned above.
Both Youkai and Gods are born from "ideas", and it's extremely difficult, if not almost impossible, for them to remove themselves the "ideas" they're born with.
You can see this with a fairly recent example: Joon.
Joon tried hard to be a better person, and even joined Myouren Temple to do so, but ultimately failed. It's her destiny to be a greedy piece of shit, because that's how she was born as.
You can even see this with Kanako trying to become a different type of god.
All in all, this makes Youkai that have acclimated to Gensokyo's paradise odd, because that's not how youkai are supposed to act. Youkai are not supposed act friendly with humans. It's only the danger of extinction that forced youkai and deity hands to have this unnatural relationship.

Eiki doesn't care about morality, she cares about roles. And every living being has a role to play.
Reimu's human, with more free will to choose what they could be, more than any Youkai or God; yet she, like every human, has a role to play. She's a shrine maiden, and she's not acting like a proper one. Youkais' place in the world are far more rigid.

>>45280225
But again, Suika would have had to overcome personal change by her own actions and she still isn’t ashamed of who she is and embraces it

Kasen didn’t have to overcome Jack shit and immediately got overtaken by bloodlust the second her arm came back. Literally only hiding and pretending she’s a hermit to make it easier to get to heaven.

>>45279834
She reunites with all of her evil, and then willingly rejects it by letting Reimu cut her arm off again.
That was one of the points of the WaHH finale.

>>45283090
I mean she has a plan to defeat her evil side, but the moment the evil side realizes the plan she immediately takes control showing she is still the dominant side and Kasen can’t overcome her own evil without outside help.

If her good outweighed her evil, she wouldn’t need to reseal the arm in the first place.

>>45282763
>they behave like humans think they should
>thus posses the free will to do whatever they hell they want and should be morally judged as such
Except they are naturally different, down to their basis of their existence. For one they need to feed off fear/faith of humans or they'll die. On the contrary they can't be killed by physical means or even aging, practically immortal.
Human morality is build around the fact that human can die by physical abuse and has short lifespan. That's why it's generally consist of not hurting each other to survive. Obviously, this doesn't apply to supernatural beings like youkai and gods whose way to sustain their existence are entirely different.
Nothing implies that youkai has to KILL humans as the only means survive, but they need humans to fear or at least make superstition about them. Thus, from the standpoint that morality is the means to preserve one's species, causing trouble is a moral thing for youkai. What else should moral be about?

>>45275739
kill yourself and take the rest of the subhuman retards with your mindset who have been browsing this board for a week with you

>>45282908
Ideas and concepts change all the time, well in the gran scheme of things that is, not to mention if it was that hard for a god or youkai to change what they are I doubt hecatia would be america of Okina would have domain over all the random bullshit she does.
Not to mention Koishi, which Miko and Byakuren talk about similar things although they have different goals and motives. Just because Kanako and Joon fail doesn't mean it's impossible, it just means they failed, and in cannon we haven't had any resolution on Kanako's attempt to also become a god of technological advancement so that may as well be a moot point, or since it's long and difficult she's probably just not finished yet.
Law fags like Eiki are blatantly corrupt, just like every other authority in the setting, and at the end of the day only care about maintaing the status quo and thus their power.
Giving the phantoms of Youkai favor based on how evil they are is only one of the more blatant examples of this.

>>45285870
>Giving the phantoms of Youkai favor based on how evil they are is only one of the more blatant examples of this.
What do you mean? Eiki only told Yuuka to scare humans which is what sustain them. She didn't tell her to maim and kill humans because even Yukari forbid that and obviously sinful.
>Eiki are blatantly corrupt
Only if you're still using human morality as be-all and end-all that doesn't apply in youkai-dominated or even human-youkai society. Youkai has different morality to keep them alive that shouldn't be ignored or forced to significantly change (like no one forcing humans to be vegan for preservance of other lifeforms in human-dominated society). At best they put some regulations, which is exactly what Gensokyo is doing.
If letting youkai sustain themselves in their own world is corrupt because "le humans should rulezz!!" then what do you think Eiki should say? Let humans completely take over Gensokyo while youkai starve and perish?

I think Kasen SUCKS

>>45286773
like vacuum

>>45282908
>Robots are made by humanity, yet they have different laws attached to them.
That's only because those robots aren't even sentient, much less sapient. If they were as aware and intelligent as we are (like yokai) then they wouldn't have different laws attached to them. They would be held accountable for whatever it is that they do. Same thing apply to yokai. It's another reason why Kasen is a hermit in the first place. She wants to enter the heavens and ascend. She doesn't want to be a party loving violent oni even though that would be way easier and more appealing than being an ascetic. They can become or are good natured or move past their inherent nature. Like Ran. She left the animal realm because it was a violence ridden shit hole and doesn't fight unless she's attacked. Also read up on japanese myth. Not all yokai are the same. They're much like us. They have a capacity for civility and morality but also violence. They can choose to be better. Oh and fuck Eiki. She's suppose to care about morality. Hence the black and white thing and her being a yama. Look up what a yama is. She's a corrupt bitch and i hope Buddha bitch slaps her.

>>45289392
>They can choose to be better.
They can simply scare humans instead of killing/eating them for preservance sake, but asking them to find alternative source of sustaining themselves is like asking every human to be vegan. Even if they technically can they have no obligation to do that in their own society.
And Eiki cares about morality of all beings, not just humans.

>>45289738
I thik it would be reasonable to ask humans to not eat cow if they where sentient like us and lived on their cow society and village, and spoke our language.

Wouldn't it be fucked up if Jeffrey Dahmer or a Pol Pot or someone like that were brainwashed so their evil thoughts were exorcised from them and they spent the rest of their lives ignoring their past and doing simple things to make up for it. Could you imagine if you saw someone that looked suspiciously like Adolf Hitler donate blankets to the needy and nag you about being lazy? If you asked him questions about his past he'd just dodge the question and scold you more.

It would be pretty weird, right?

>>45289898
Corrected, just like that damn Oni deserves.
Although I would prefer reunited Kasen to have her charisma break not due to rape but to loving consensual sex where she submits to a man.

>>45289815
You're describing the reality of people in Argentina post WW2

>>45289966
I would prefer getting femdom raped into submission and Kasen deciding that she liked me enough to keep me for a while.

>>45289738
>And Eiki cares about morality of all beings, not just humans.
Youkai are defined not by different morality but by having no morality. Their most distinctive trait is that they believe in nothing but themselves and what makes them happy. There is nothing else to it.

>>45286364
See: >>45290389

On that same note. Besides a few groups like the Tengu there is no Youkai society either. Eiki is wrong because Youkai have no morale standard.

>>45290389
Wow individuals have selfish desires and self serving world views who would have guessed, it's not like they have societies, trade, hobbies, friendships and personal moral, religious, and philosophical beliefs.
It's not like the fact that there is a line drawn between feral and non-feral youkai, as well as banished youkai who live underground, implying some sort of greater youkai culture in gensokyo and that there are societal taboos.

>>45290415
the kappa have enough of a society for it to have a civil war and split into the yamawaro and the kappa, and there's the entire underground society, as well as the rumoured utopia inside youkai mountain

>>45289759
Except in youkai case it doesn't even go that far. Youkai only need to spook you and they already put in regulations to not bring great harm in the village, but you keep asking for more comfort is basically pushing human favor and desire to dominate even though it's youkai-dominated society.
It's immoral against human lives if they get killed and it should be a crime, but you don't get to complain if youkai only make noises at night or keep you from leaving the village. It's their world.

>>45274672
I would have been more interested in Kasen, had I known that she was an evil woman from the start.

>>45290471
She says she's a real villain in like chapter one or something, did you think that was just hyperbole?

>>45290389
>>45290415
Even if they somehow don't have morale standard despite having the ability to emphatize and have feelings, they have to or bound to develop one. Morality as in set of rules to preserve them as species or even individual, not as simple as"this evil this good". That's why Gensokyo exist.
How can you say youkai has no morale when they are trying to survive all the same and Gensokyo exist for that reason? Gensokyo itself has set of rules for preservance for both them and humans and it count as society, even if it's flawed. Even speaking about individual youkai, the means to keep him/her survive itself is morale standard. He/She just need to apply it fellow youkai and others to make it a good one and Gensokyo is an attempt at that, and those all falls into Eiki's verdict; how to survive. That's the basic role of every living being.

>>45290471
>>45290618
For a villain she sure is up everyone’s ass about being proper and nice. Seems a bit hypocritical

>>45290748
I mean, it’s not like they keep the humans alive because they feel any bit of sympathy for them.

>>45290939
She does it because she knows it pisses them off and that they are physically incapable of taking the advice anyways.

>>45291746
It's indeed their flaw, if it's 100% true that is. It is possible for youkai to feel sympathy even if it's a bit skewed and we don't know exactly how Yukari or Okina feels.
Not like morality is build around sympathy alone, anyway.

>>45291775
From what I read she really does want to give Reimu actual advice and tries to help her, so it’s not like it’s solely because she likes fucking with them

>>45291961
Even so, the balance of Gensokyo isn’t really pointed in humans favor, and honestly the fact that even Reimu just kind of looks the other way to the bad shit youkai do kinda makes it feel like the morality ain’t really mattering in the long run. Eiki really should give humans a bit more leeway since it’s clear it ain’t really about balance, at least not anymore.

>>45291775
I really don't think this is the case. Throughout most of WaHH we see Kasen doing things to try and improve Reimu as a person and improve her life. She tries to resolve issues that she thinks will cause trouble, she saves animals that are close to becoming youkai and she does it all whole beating herself up about her own past
Kasen isn't really a good person, but I think she tries to be, and that's probably the point.

>>45292066
It's not, but the implication seems to be there is very little to none honest conflict.
Reimu and the various incident solvers seem to handle all the problems, but Reimu is still presented as bored with little to do most of the time and her "co-workers" are very much partimers who only really deal with youkai casually and in their free-time.
With the exception of Marisa of course, but she's also a criminal, mercenary, and a witch who has no problem with killing newly born youkai who both present little genuine danger and don't know any better.
Where as in older lore the situation on the ground was less seen, but also implied to be more active with misc witchs and youkai hunters doing their own things.
Like Reimu has enough free-time to fill she can afford to micromanage individual cases like Kosuzu's, and when Aya interviews other youkai they mostly seem disinterested in making an active effort towards antagonism.
Not to mention Byakuren implies that one of the reasons Youkai are much more in control of themselves in gensokyo is that they are more independent from human belief, and yes she may be biased, but she's the only explicitly stated youjitsu expert in cannon and her experiments are seemingly valid enough to warrant Bishamontan funding them slash backing the temple, which is something people forget.

>>45292252
Yeah but ultimately, the peace basically relies on the humans being stripped of all ambitions and dreams, especially the village folk. They can’t discover or build anything new like humans in the real world can and they are actively suppressed in rising above what they are. And if they even were to dare try to leave the village as a youkai, then Reimu will immediately kill them, not because they are youkai strictly, but because they would disrupt the balance of subjugation the humans are put under.

Simply put, even if youkai are more independent, they are actively trying to keep the humans suppressed and under their control. It ain’t balanced in anyone’s favor but the youkai.

>>45292066
>Even so, the balance of Gensokyo isn’t really pointed in humans favor
Yeah it's not, because the youkai are the one in control.
>Eiki really should give humans a bit more leeway
Honestly, we don't really know what Eiki think about how Gensokyo operates now. We are mainly talking about whether it's okay for youkai to do what it naturally does to survive. I only bring up society because the humancentric view people like to push is build around human-dominated society, while in the world where youkai exist and stand not below humans like Gensokyo, their perspective need to be strongly considered. On the other hand, Eiki need to be fair about those two species.
That said Gensokyo itself is perhaps flawed, depends on the severity of human casualties outside the village, but it's not necessarily inherent part of youkai though Eiki will still judge them guilty. However, judging from the reaction of Eiki telling Yuuka to scare people more, it sounds like people don't like any inconvenience human has from youkai existence. Eiki probably only advice Yuuka to make grass in people's home grow taller, or put fake corpse in front of her garden so people don't enter, creating a superstition as per their needs, and she will also advice humans not to wander carelessly at night.
But appearently Eiki is corrupt for enforcing that idea. It may only sounds bizarre because we are so used to be able to do whatever we want, but in Gensokyo where youkai lives abundantly, doing something that threaten youkai's existence should be considered guilty as well and humans don't get to be always so nonchalant, especially not in the world youkai build.

>>45275739
I used to think the vtuber shit ruined this board but honestly it only bothers me because they have their own boards and I got banned for pointing it out once

>>45290471
She ain't like that now.

>>45279842
>Then what would suffice as redemption for you?
To become the village's public sex toilet until she gives birth to the same number of people she killed

>>45292794
Seiga, please.

>>45292514
Well, not all youkai.
The big shots like the Tengu are the ones that really like the status quo, while those at the bottom of the pecking order like Seija and Shimmy were crushed trying to change it.
Yamabiko are practically extinct outside of Kyouko and no one tried to help before the events of UFO. If Byakuren had not taken her in, she would also be going to Youkai heaven, or whatever happens to them when they poof from existence.

>>45292801
she's more about miscarriages

>>45292817
>whatever happens to them when they poof from existence.
They'll be reduced into vengeful spirit, probably a small, barely sentient one like the ones floating in underworld or buried under earth. It can still go several ways from there, either purrified and carried to the next life, grow stronger to become sentient evil spirit, or perish as fuel. Identity and memories will also likely have perished at that point, except in very rare circumstances.

>>45292773
>their perspective need to be strongly considered.
Why? Like I said, their perspective is nothing other than selfishness. They have no morality, their existence is based on cruelty. If what Marisa does is not okay, according to Eiki, every Youkai deserves zero benefit of the doubt.

>Honestly, we don't really know what Eiki think about how Gensokyo operates now.
Well, the issue there is that Gensokyo around pofv was a very different place.

>But appearently Eiki is corrupt for enforcing that idea.
Yes. Anything short of actually making Youkai change their way is inherently corrupt. Not helped by the fact she's arguably defending her own existence.

>>45292773
>>45293325
So the point is that Eiki, as a Buddhist deity, is supposed to judge everyone by Buddhist standards and not pick and choose based on race (because in Buddhism being anything other than human is disadvantageous to achieving Nirvana, even gods and celestials suck at enlightenment), but since she doesn't she's corrupt? Am I getting this correctly?

>>45290426
>it's not like they have societies, trade, hobbies, friendships and personal moral, religious, and philosophical beliefs.
They don't have most of those. Yeah, some Youkai do but those are very much the exceptions proving the rule. Hell, the playable characters are pretty much the most developed Youkai around and most of them are still essentially sociopaths totally bereft of most of what you mentioned.

>>45290452
>but you keep asking for more comfort is basically pushing human favor and desire to dominate even though it's youkai-dominated society.
Youkai are evil. I don't care about their wants. Nor should Eiki, if she was being actually impartial.

>>45290436
They are still all sociopathic assholes on average.

>>45290748
>Empathy
When? 99% of them have shown zero ability to empathize.

>They have or bound to develop one
They had every chance in the world and showed zero indication. Nor is there any indication that they ever will unless literally forced upon them.

>How can you say youkai has no morale when they are trying to survive all the same and Gensokyo exist for that reason?
Most of them don't give a fuck about Gensokyo. Their desire to survive is selfish, and they spend their lives spreading misery and pain for no other reason than their own enjoyment.

>Gensokyo itself has set of rules for preservance for both them and humans and it count as society, even if it's flawed.
"Do this or you get shot" doesn't automatically makes you a society.

>Even speaking about individual youkai, the means to keep him/her survive itself is morale standard.
If you accept "I do this bad thing to survive" there is no morality in the first place. Murder, theft, rape. All of that is perfectly justifiable according to the principle to survival.

Frankly, it doesn't even work anyway. If this was true, Eiki would have no reason to complain about anything humans do in Gensokyo. By default, the likes of Marisa could spend her days torturing youkai to death to obtain more magic and it would still be justified by survival. But no, she is judged for lying. As if that isn't just as much a survival mechanism for a normal girl like her to actually live a proper life in Gensokyo.

>>45293442
More or less. That and if you do accept that "Survival" is a valid defense there is no morality in the first place. Anything can be justified in the first place. Certainly the things done by the human characters of Gensokyo.

The issue here in general is ultimately that Touhou lore has changed and her stance is insanely unreasonable in Modern Gensokyo. It was fine when the game came out.

>Most of them don't give a fuck about Gensokyo. Their desire to survive is selfish, and they spend their lives spreading misery and pain for no other reason than their own enjoyment.
At some point I've started to doubt that they even want to survive. Akyuu did say that a lot of youkai don't care if they live or die, otherwise Sages would get at least some respect for creating a safe haven for them. Yukari is forcing these barely sapient evil retards to exist and they're not thankful in the slightest.
>>45293594
Why would her stace be fine back then? I mean, in pre-SoPM context the only questionable critique she offered was to Yuuka, as that one goes against her religion. Others were mostly fine, she even made Mystia respect the dead with a proper song. Of course, Mystia forgot about why she sang that very quickly, but it's still something.

>>45294130
forgot to quote
>>45293587

>>45294130
>Akyuu did say that a lot of youkai don't care if they live or die
Because their physical bodies don't really matter, they can exist as a phantom for awhile and stuff before reforming. It's why they flip their shit at vengeful spirits that attack the soul directly

>>45294130
They are basically children mentally. It's not that they don't want to survive, they are genuinly too stupid to live.

>Why would her stace be fine back then?
Like you said, pre-SoPM the only critique of her that was questionable was Yuuka. Even then however, Youkai "attacking" humans was more like play acting(Besides outsiders anyway). She also seemed to partially critique Yuuka for attacking people without reason.
>If you rest here, you'll become insane.
>No, you might already be a little strange.
>Whether it be humans or youkai,
>or ghost or fairies,
>you've attacked them.
>Without much reason, as well.

>>45292514
I don't disagree with the balance of Gensokyo being out of the human's favor, and i'm not really arguing for it.
But I get why the youkai did it, for them it's either death or non-exsistence.
And the claim that the villagers can't invent new things is compleltly unfounded, we don't know about Okina, but Yukari and Kasen seem to not care about teach or outside influence much, Yukari even says as much in her interview with Aya in Aya's own tabloid biased her the favor of her own politics.
Also becoming a youkai is shit and it's not like becoming a hermit is illegal or unknown about, people just tend not to do it.

>>45295111
>But I get why the youkai did it, for them it's either death or non-exsistence.
That doesn't make it morale however. Death is a part of life and both the Youkai's refusal to accept that as well as the way they use the life they gained unfairly at the expense of people that, frankly, deserve it far worse is a crime by all objective measures.

>And the claim that the villagers can't invent new things is compleltly unfounded
They literally can't even have a leader. They are literally not allowed the level of comfort and societal development to allow innovation.

>>45295154
*Deserve it far more

>>45295154
I'm not saying it's moral, i'm saying it's understandable why they did it and fearing death is only natural and I understand why they act of of self preservation.
That said it's not like i'm giving them a free pass, I don't like the state of Gemspkyo and would like to see it improve, youkai at least in Gensokyo are near the cognitive functions of humans and should be jugged as such, they have free will and don't have to kill people or randomly assault them and should be jugged as such, this is why Eiki and Aya's position is stupid.
Just because a Youkai is a Youkai doesn't mean they should let what they are take precedence over who they are.
I've under the impression the villagers do have a level of comfort, I mean they have the excess supply to be able to afford commodities and despite only having print blocks literacy and printing seems both easy and common, although them only having print blocks is likely just Zun liking the old timey feel of them and not thinking it through.

>>45295231
Correction: It's understandable why the sages, only two of which are youkai, did it. Your average Youkai didn't do anything and their attitude is, in fact, the biggest obstacle to Gensokyo's continued existence and their own survival.

>I've under the impression the villagers do have a level of comfort
It's comfortable by the standards of two hundred years ago. They are objectively worse off than modern Japanese people.

>>45295378
I thought we aere coming at this from the perspective of holding all youkai, both as a collective and individuals as having a degree of guilt in the creation and perpetuation of Gensokyo as it's a system made to benefit them which they don't really seek to change.
But I would like you to expand on why the average is an obstacle to Gensokyo's survival, the implication from Aya seems to be that they are also on average in some form of decline like the villagers due to having a slow, lazy life style from Aya's pov and don't seem to be serious about antagonizing humans.
And yeah they aren't at the level of modern humans, they don't have air conditioning or freedom of movement, but they have seemingly abundant food, running water, cheap medicine, multiple harvest gods which probably means they have decent agricultural output... etc
Yeah I know Zun says it's supposed to be like japan a hundred years ago, but that statement also directly contradicts what we've been shown in print works and mangas so it's silly.
My point being, things could be better, they could be worse, I wish they were better, but it's not like Gensokyo is some special form of suffering or on the level as a hell.

>>45295499
While there are people who would like to live this kind of lifestyle, those people actually have a choice in the matter, unlike the villagers

>>45295516
I'm saying it's not hell, that's not a high bar to cross, it's not like they are in an active warzone.
I'm not saying i'd like to live in Gensokyo or the villagers have it good, not being protected if they leave the village, not being allowed to have political representation, and not having air conditioning is bad and as I said I hold all Youkai as having a degree of culpability in the system.

>>45295535
Not arguing with that, just wanted to clarify that for the future, because "Gensokyo sucks because no electricity" is a flawed argument in my opinion.
>>45295378
>their attitude is, in fact, the biggest obstacle to Gensokyo's continued existence and their own survival.
How so? They seem to get away with it just fine.

>>45295499
>My point being, things could be better, they could be worse,
Sure, but there is no reason why any human has to take that lying down nor do I see a single reason to really sympathize with Youkai. The human villagers, regardless of how good or bad their lives are, simply would be better off in the outside world. Yet are trapped, against their desire, by a group of ultimately evil creatures whose existence is a net negative. I don't have a problem with the fact that Youkai want to live, I have a problem with the fact that wanting to live is probably their only trait that is morally defensible.

>>45295569
>How so?
Because it actively endangers the brittle foundation of Gensokyo. The entire place is basically on the edge of a cliff and the only real roll your average Youkai has is seeing just how far they can push it before something falls.

"abloobloo those youkai ladies outside don't wanna say hi and they don't let me build cars or leaving the big village"
Grow a fucking spine

>>45296600
Growing a spine means supporting youkai genocide.

>>45296610
I would but I won't sugarcoat it behind whiny moralfaggotry talk
I'll show who's the alpha race by taking Yukari as my concubine.

>>45296610
Growing a spine means fucking gappy into submission and doing whatever anyway

>>45296685
>>45296695
Nothing alpha about that. Monsters get the axe. Keeping them around because "muh dick" is immaturity.

Throwing Yukari's decapitated head in front of the human village and being declared their new leader is alpha.

>>45296724
Imagine caring about what some stupid villagers think of you.
Must be hard on your cheeks sucking that much cock all day to make them like you, I'd much rather tell them to fuck off and live in the woods like a real man, not some insecure cuck who has to fellate himself with how much he hates youkai.

>>45296747
Becoming a ruler is about making them care of what you think, weakling.

>Cuck
That's going to be the villager men that were too spineless to take a leadership positoon, at least once I institute right of first night.

>>45296511
There are tons of legends about youkai acting positively with humans even before the modern era, and even within the context of touhou youkai are capable of having positive and non-negative interactions with humans.
Byakuren even states that youkai in gensokyo were liberated from the confines of human imagination, they are don't have to persist purely as they do as spirits of human fear.
I also do not understand wht you mean by "only trait that is morally defensible." all things abuse, kill others, require the sacrifice of another, and commit evil to live, I don't like unnecessary evil and will condemn it and think less of youkai who choose to antagonize humans, but by the standard of having to have a sinless nature you would damn all other things in equal measure.
Not to mention again, even before Gensokyo Byakuren was sponsored by Bishamonten, it's not like she's speaking out of her ass when she talks about youkai being able to have positive relations with humans and not needing to be evil.
Her entire temple is an experiment to that end, and lets not forget Bishamonten got his job not due to how good of a buddhist he was, but how good he was at expunging evil, he's the exact type to be biased against youkai.
Youkai can be and act good, that's why I judge the immoral actions that youkai commit harshly.

>>45296763
Unfortunately for you, the human village elects it's leaders by how easy they can take it.
You as a rampaging youkai racist would only get the support of AQ and the miko, while the pro youkai relations candidate would automatically get the backing of every other faction.
And if you try to take the position by force, you'll be laughed at and cut down by the mayor's guards, and thrown into the woods so they don't have to disgrace the earth by returning you to it.

>>45296766
>Byakuren even states that youkai in gensokyo were liberated from the confines of human imagination,
That's what damns them in my eyes though. If they really are free from human imagination, then the way most of them and Gensokyo as a whole chooses to behave is inexcusable. They have a choice to not be evil, and 99% of them choose evil without even needing to think about it.

>I also do not understand wht you mean by "only trait that is morally defensible."
Basically: Their desire to not die is the only trait they show that can actually be justified and defended. Almost everything else they do is evil and monstrous by every measure.

>>45296815
>miko
Reimu isn't going to be shit without without Yukari back it up.

>you'll be laughed at and cut down by the mayor's guards,
If they have the power to take down somebody capable of defeating Yukari, this entire thing would be a non issue.

>>45296724
Don't tell me what to do, nerd.
Your whiny ass bitch probably can't stand 3 days living in a shack let alone hit anybody with an axe.
I don't give a shit about rat-ass villagers. I will cull weaklings by myself, both youkai and human and take Yukari booty as my trophy.

>>45296852
Obviously they need to sustain Gensokyo to remain liberated from human imagination, which in turn requires the human village as it is needed for Gensokyo to function.
And mind you, what we hear about the average youkai is that they don't do much, they kind of just live their lives and don't go out of their way to bother people.
How is the kappa building stuff, tengu printing and selling newspapers, making GPS systems, running food stands, going to parties, and not doing much evil?
The vast majority chose not to antagonize people, although they still exist in a system meant to benefit them and that works towards the detriment of humans.

>>45296600
Why don’t you go by the example of your friend yuyuko and slit your throat and die hag

>>45296917
Kappa are immoral con artists at best, ruthless pedophilic murderers at worst. Meanwhile Tengu are literally the worst aspects of modern society with none of the good.

>The vast majority chose not to antagonize people
The vast majority does antagonize humans, they either just don't take it all that seriously (Rumia, Yuuka, Chen seemingly) have moved away from straight up murder (Mystia, Seija, Mamizou, most Oni) or have some kind of circumstance getting in the way (Nue, Underground youkai, Momoyo). That's just the actual characters, by the way. Most minor Youkai we see are downright monstrous or amoral shits at the best of times.

>>45298088
Underground youkai aren't even in Gensokyo, it's literally the underworld, former hell, and they were banished there because they aren't tolerated.
I would put Nue in the currently doesn't hurt humans category, it would be weird for Mamizou to be on such good terms with somebody so currently anti-human.
We've been told, straight up told that most don't antagonize humans actively.
Also did I miss something why are you calling Momoyo somebody who would willing kill humans? It's not like we know much about her besides she's dumb and being used by Megumu.
Also while the Tengu have a shity society, it's shitty towards the Tengu and it is a society, but at the same time I wouldn't call them pure evil, and I don't think the Kappa have ever been referred to as pedos in cannon.
And for minor youkai we have: a starving snake who dined and dashed, two different youkai stealing marisa's identity who Reimu considers not a threat, a fox child who attends school, a cute fat snake which is animalistic, a nice "evil dragon", and a child melon thief who marisa killed.
I'd hardly call them a rogues gallery of terror.

>>45298215
>I would put Nue in the currently doesn't hurt humans category
Somewhat? It's hard to say how willingly that is.

>Also did I miss something why are you calling Momoyo somebody who would willing kill humans?
She threatens to eat the protagonists and I don't see much of a reason to assume it was just taunts.

>I wouldn't call them pure evil,
Sure. But they aren't good either. Not helped by the fact they are actively trying to control the human village.

>We've been told, straight up told that most don't antagonize humans actively.
Not really. Or are you referring to something else than what I think?

>and I don't think the Kappa have ever been referred to as pedos in cannon.
You do realize what Kappa do, right?

>I'd hardly call them a rogues gallery of terror
Still downright monstrous or immoral. There are also plenty of minor Youkai mentioned and shown that you aren't putting on that list.

>>45298215
Youkai are hard to tell apart from fairies sometimes. Like, the trouble they cause seems to mostly be minor pranks or make a nuisance out of themselves, which would be irritating and not something you'd like to live with but hardly a disaster. The kidnapping thing is really the only one that seems to be a serious problem but even then they just return you after a bit.

>>45289738
I don't know if this is ZUN being inconsistent as always but yokai can survive pretty much anywhere and off anything. Kasen doesn't scare anyone and eats normal food. Hijiri is a vegan from what i know. Also Eiki doesn't care about morality at all, just maintaining the status quo and taking bribes. Again, look up what a Yama actually is and how yokai can change and become morally upstanding or at least not an asshole. She's a retard.

>>45298311
When I say doesn't willingly I mean, realistically what could Byakuren or Mamiozu do? Nue can just fuck off and kill people at her pleasure, and Mamizou who probably knows what Nue does when she's not around the temple isn't the type to tolerate that behavior.
Also I'm not calling the youkai good, i'm just calling them not pure evil, and when I say told, Aya complains about them not actively harming humans.
Both in interviews and in private when she's with close associates she's complained about humans not hunting youkai and youkai not attacking humans.
I know what the Kappa are and I know what they do, they build shit, drink blood and eat testicles and ass balls although they find that disgusting.
And for monstrosity I don't consider dine and dashing due to starvation, wanting to attend school, and stealing melons to be monstrous, even the actual serious crimes like identity theft never get that serious and mainly seem for a way for the youkai to fuck with Reimu.
For Momoyo, she says that she'll make Sanae's resting place her shrine, thinks the player characters are thieves, and loves a good fight, but other than that she's fairly tame.
Also pic rel. Further onward in the same interview he talks about the culture of Gensokyo and how in modern times it's constructed around maintaining the status quo and that the battles are meant to not leave bad tastes in peoples mouths.
So spell card battles are mostly ceremonial and the quips said before and after are tauntings like you'd see in pro-wrestling.

I thought we were talking about how much of a hypocritical bitch Kasen is, how did this turn into the political landscape of Gensokyo?

>>45298929
Grimderp nibbers can't keep it to themselves.

>>45298429
I agree that they aren't pure evil. But I do think they are mostly evil, and more importantly that they nearly always CHOOSE to be evil. None of them do anything to earn sympathy.

>Aya complains about them not actively harming humans.
That is old lore. While I don't entirely dispute it's canonicity. It takes on a very different meaning back then compared to now.

>realistically what could Byakuren or Mamiozu do?
I mean, in the case of Byakuren it is her literal home.

>>45298978
I think Aya's statement still stands, especially because she comments on the human village being less antagonistic towards youkai as something she dislikes.
Which I feel fits with the political leanings of her and the Tengu, being very conservative and wanting humans to be humans and youkai to be youkai.
Besides lore is only outdated once it's contradicted, and Zun is perfectly willing to bring old things back, like Reimu's off-hand comment about the Animal Realm when meeting Ran in PCB.
And for Nue, she can just fuck off somewhere else to kill people, it's completely in her ability and she's a pretty strong youkai.
Besides in newer lore youkai are implied to be less antagonistic then they were in older lore, there used to be such a problem with youkai hunters were common, but now Reimu has enough free time to still be bored 90% of the time, and personally deal with almost every case we see in cannon.

>>45280206
>but Remilia started the entire Spellcard Rules
It wasn't her, it was an unknown vampire whose identity might never be revealed. Remilia and her gang would arrive much later

>>45298363
>taking bribes
Explain
>look up what a Yama actually is
Touhou Yama or japanese lore Yama? Because they're not necessarily the same down to a T

>>45299084
anon, it was remilia, it literally says that
'that vampire', as in the same vampire to cause the vampire incident caused the scarlet mist incident

>>45298929
That's what it naturally leads to.
But then again it's mainly because anon can't stop seething about youkai being generally apathetic towards humans.
It's like he can't stand fiction when it's not like Care Bears or something, I dunno.

>>45299221
And she even went out of her way to kill the other "vampires" that were living in Gensokyo once they arrived due to territorial dispute, as well as secretly cleaning house so there wouldn't be any others causing issues with the humans/her and Flan's way of life. Publicly, she'd never admit to it and plays the part of the bratty Castlevania/Jojo villian, but secretly is very calculated thanks to her long life and "position" of the owner of a grand European estate with all that entails.

>>45299081
I think it stands as well. But, like I said, it has a very different meaning nowadays. Especially when it comes to the human village being less antagonistic.

>And for Nue, she can just fuck off somewhere else to kill people,
Sure, but she doesn't have much of a reason to do so. Don't forget she's VERY old and pretty terrified of getting sealed away again.

>Besides in newer lore youkai are implied to be less antagonistic then they were in older lore,
Depends on the older lore. PCB implied everybody in Gensokyo was just strong enough to fight Youkai. While in PMISS it was mostly just play acting.

>and personally deal with almost every case we see in cannon.
That's more likely because the human village just has no Youkai exterminators anymore.

>>45299307
>But then again it's mainly because anon can't stop seething about youkai being generally apathetic towards humans.
They still murder every outsider they stumble across and are trying to manipulate, control, and annoy the human villagers. That is hardly "Apathetic."

>>45299543
>she even went out of her way to kill the other "vampires" that were living in Gensokyo
source?

This is the evidence that Youkai are apathetic towards Humans, far as I can tell:
>Rumia: Nothing much. I just fly around at night too.
>Aya: So a lifestyle without any real goal in mind. Lately, it feels like there are more youkai who don't feel like learning or working. It's quite depressing.
>Rumia: Attacking humans is a youkai's job.
>Aya: But are you exerting any effort in attacking humans?
>Rumia: Lately, humans won't let me attack them. This other time I was beaten up instead.
>Aya: It's because of that that you can't uphold your dignity as a youkai. At the very least, you should meld into the darkness at night and position yourself at a road.
>Rumia: Eeeh, what a pain.

Which is mostly just evidence that Youkai are lazy. Not that they don't bother humans.

>>45299586
it's not even really evidence that youkai in general are lazy, it's just rumia is really lazy
I think what a lot of people mistake for apathy is just that youkai are really long lived so long gaps of time without thinking about humans is just par for the course for them

>>45274672
To be fair, Reimu was holding back when she really shouldn't had. Fantasy Heaven alone would have been enough to make her body that arm, but she needed to be handheld by Tenshi of all people to solve it.

>>45299563
>murder every outsider they stumble across
Exaggerating. How many clear cases of humans casualties outside the village that actually happened? So far youkai threats mostly come from what seems like propaganda and scare tactics to instill fear in humans, like assigning danger level, banter about eating and killing, questionable rumors, etc. If bodies keep dropping or missing human village will be in constant panic and chaos, but since that's hardly the case it means casualties are low enough.

>manipulate, control, and annoy the human villagers
Not a big problem. The point is they don't have sympathy for humans and use them for their own gain, but as long it's safe to live in the village I don't care.
As if manipulation and complete disregard of the masses are not already the case in real world, except there's no minor youkai pranks here.

>>45299795
What does Fantasy Heaven do again and what could it do to Kasen? Doesn't it just let Reimu become intangible?

>>45299221
Mmm, I think that the key phrase here is 'were put to use for the first time'. It was the main incident that put the spell cards duel into use, not when they were created, and "that vampire" means that by the time that was written, Remilia was already known in all of Gensokyo

According to spell card rules, PMSS mentions that, while its believed that Reimu made it, Akyuu says that there's a very old contract by youkai serving as the origin of the spell card rules. What caused this? What caused that a bunch of night invulnerable creatures decided to sit down and say 'ok, no more fights to the death'?

Akyuu has also mentioned that she doesn't remember Remilia and the SDM gang in Gensokyo before the mist incident, which is interesting because after the absolute bloodbath the vampire incident was, she should. However, we know that by around 1998, the SDM was already in Gensokyo, as pointed out by Aya, revealing that a few youkai already knew about it

All in all, and due this, I do believe that the sisters were not involved in the incident

>>45299870
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zMWgL1PaWZ8
it just fucking nukes everything
thing is, you have to land seven clean hits before it activates and kasen would have wiped the floor with reimu if she'd got in close enough before then
plus, kasen wasn't obeying the spell card rules at that point and even just her arm shrugged off every bit of danmaku thrown at her with the most being reimu's fantasy seal which she said just stung slightly
I think even if Reimu had managed to hit her enough to activate fantasy heaven, kasen would have survived it

>>45299870
Reimu becomes intangible, but her danmaku still has a physical effect. She could walk up to evil!Kasen and shotgun her chest with needles until she dropped.
And in the same series, Reimu nearly dies to moldy rice balls, and this is on top of being babysat every other step by her patron deity she never acknowledges. The sage has plenty of reasons to chew her out.

>>45299884
akyuu doesn't say that the contract is old, she just says that it's written on the same paper as the youkai contract, and she speculates that a youkai (presumably yukari) proposed the rules to reimu, which doesn't preclude that it was remi who stirred up the vampire incident
also, akyuu has this line in remi's article, which leads you to believe that whenever 'the vampires' are mentioned, as they are in the vampire incident section, it's referring to them

>>45299941
>she just says that it's written on the same paper as the youkai contract
My mistake, thank you for correcting me.
>akyuu has this line in remi's article, which leads you to believe that whenever 'the vampires' are mentioned
Something tells me that the unknown vampire that caused the incident was killed for good, and for good reason, and that the sisters are the ones that are left, at least for all we know

Maybe an agreement to disagreement between us?

>>45299908
Her regular danmaku probably won't hurt Kasen 12p too much and god knows how long the time it takes to whittle down the big oni with baby amulets and needles.
Reimu need much bigger firepower, but we don't know exactly how powerful >>45299902 is.

>>45299902
Literally dragged her ass to hell to get nearly destroyed by her evil ass arm and the only thing she could muster to help her was like one piece of a sword.

No wonder Reimu is such a cranky bitch, even the Yama was like “whatever” on whether or not she died.

>>45299586
If they are lazy about bothering humans, and don't bother with bothering humans most of the time, then they aren't bothering humans.
Also she gets after Letty for the same thing near the end of her own interview.
Rumia's statement is a bit odd as it implies she asks people to let her attack them.

>>45301613
>it implies she asks people to let her attack them.
Nah, it implies she gets bear sprayed whenever she tries. But Aya's kind of being a dick because she has infinite power and can dick around with dudes whenever she likes, while in terms of strength Rumia is basically just a coyote that talks.

>>45301632
Her asking people to let her assault them is cuter.

>>45299857
Anon, "All outsiders that stumble across Youkai" get killed has been a part of the lore for an long ass time. Hell, even Marisa flat out mentions that corpses are commonplace outside the human village in FS at one point.

>Not a big problem.
It's a problem. Which, combined with everything else, is enough reason for me to have zero sympathy for Youkai.

Human villagers are sympathetic, Youkai are not, If every Youkai died for the sake of the villagers, I would have no issue with that. They have shown they don't deserve to exist.

>>45301613
> and don't bother with bothering humans most of the time
They do not. That is the issue.

Them being lazy about bothering humans is one thing, but they do still bother humans. They just don't care enough on average to do more than murder the average outsider that walks up to them and ask for direction.

>Rumia's statement is a bit odd as it implies she asks people to let her attack them.
No? She's basically just saying "They won't let me eat/attack them". It's like a soldier saying "The enemy won't let me shoot at them".

>>45302292
>is enough reason for me to have zero sympathy for Youkai.
Well that's entirely your problem

>They have shown they don't deserve to exist
Way to blow it out
Why are you even into Touhou at all if you can't stand 90% of the characters?

>>45302292
>If every Youkai died for the sake of the villagers
Why the fuck do you want them to do that?

>>45302507
>Well, that's entirely your problem
I would say it's a problem with Touhou as a whole since I'm far from the only person.

>Way to blow it out
Hate to tell you this, but it literally a one or the other scenario. The wellbeing of the Human villagers or the existence of Youkai. I pick the former, easily. They have shown, time and time again, they do not deserve to exist.

>Why are you even into Touhou at all if you can't stand 90% of the characters?
Same reason I like Fawlty Towers. Bad people do not make bad characters. At worst the only real issue is that it's hard to care about any of the drama when I'm actively rooting for Gensokyo to get burned down.

>>45302547
Because, like I said, they do not deserve to exist. Rather Gensokyo ceases existing and the Human villagers are free to find happiness in the outside world. Youkai are beyond redemption.

>>45302547
>>45302507
NTA
But I think his point is clear, youkai are entirely monstrous beings only capable of harming humans, sympathizing with one is like sympathizing with a demon or Satan himself, they are pure evil and deserve no sympathy or empathy.
If they aren't pure evil, then they choose to be evil and thus worse as they have free will.
Either way they would need to be genocided and don't deserve sympathy and cannot by empathized with as they are entirely alien monsters.
But I don't know why he plays touhou if he hates 90% of the characters, he kind of comes across as an unironic HFY fag.
I'd love to see Zun to read this discussion lol.

>>45302831
And yet in most fanworks characters are at least somewhat sympathetic.
I'm genuinely convinced that majority of the cast being irredeemable wouldn't be this difficult to accept for 90% of the fans if they weren't girls.

>>45302832
I assume ZUN made the characters that way to give off the same feeling from japanese lore where youkai are feared beings but also to expand how they live and interact as society.
but ZUN would probably scratch his head that people take the setting too seriously and get seriously offended that the youkai generally aren't the nicest people and the shit they've done to humans as if it's a real place.

>>45303017
I get it, but I think it's more that Anon can't differentiate degrees of immorality and morality, which is why he was mocked for wanting to build cars in Gensokyo.
But he's technically right that first world countries in the outside world have a better life for their middle class upper members of their society.
I've seen people in this thread confuse a society for a nation, even if you believe the youkai are monsters they clearly have a society, although that's more anthropological illiteracy than anything.

>>45280742
"preserving the balance" types aren't lawful neutral, they're lawful evil trying to justify themselves

>>45299795
I don't think ZUN will ever acknowledge Musou Tensei in any serious context since he doesn't know how to handle a protagonist with an unbeatable ability and he doesn't want to start writing Kaiohs to counter it, so it's probably best to assume it never existed and Reimu can be beaten normally by anyone strong and skilled enough.

>>45303017
From what I understand, fandom's most popular fanon and previous general understanding of what kind of setting Touhou is (that is, printworks before SoPM + very heavy belief in nothing being really all that bad or threatening) clashed very hard with what it actually is.
Don't recall ever seeing anything like this anywhere else.

>>45302832
The issue is not "Youkai are pure evil".

It's "Youkai can choose to be evil, and they chose evil".

>>45303013
Without question. Whetever intenional or unintenional on ZUN's part, i do think it's very intresting and one of the reasons I like talking with Touhou fans.

>>45303017
Obviously you shouldn't take it too seriously. I used the Fawlty Tower example for a reason. Even at it's darkest, Touhou is farce.

>>45303067
>I get it, but I think it's more that Anon can't differentiate degrees of immorality and morality, which is why he was mocked for wanting to build cars in Gensokyo.
My point is not "They should build cars in Gensokyo" it's "Gensokyo just shouldn't exist."

>even if you believe the youkai are monsters they clearly have a society
SOME Youkai have socities. on average though they basically just do what they want with no regard for others.

>>45303293
Gensokyo is a society, a society which has youkai in it. It consists of different people who have developed organized patterns of relations with each other and this society even has clearly marked classes of individual, humans, sub-humans, youkai, sages, gods, shrine maidens... etc
The Kappa, Fairies, Tengu, Tanuki, Inaba, and presumably the Kitsune are nations, a social group or society with a clearly marked separate collective identity has formed based around similarities in the population of said nation.
For fuck's sake even bird brained animalistic and antagonistic retards like mystia enage in society.

>>45303410
Eh, I disagree somewhat but by that point we are mostly just arguing semantics.

My point though is that most Youkai are just selfish assholes with no sense of community, empathy, or desire to do anything meanigfull for others. That is how PMISS describes them, how Aya describes them, even how they seem to describe themselves. Like, Mystia is noted as being pretty special since what she did with the food cart and the band isn't that common.

>>45303449
It's not just semantics, in order to properly engage in an argument you need to understand what your opponents mean, that's why dictionary definitions exist. They are a common reference point so when we all know where we're coming from, that's why I used what are basically the dictionary definition of society and nation.
Not only are those understandings common, but when someone looks up those English words they'll see those definitions.
If you mean they are generally selfish then yes I agree, but a degree of community and empathy is needed for a society to form, even chimps and wolves have it, pigs as well, cows, lions, sheep, ants.. etc
If they lacked these things, not only would they not understand and participate in Gensokyo, but Gensokyo would be unable to be maintained in the first place.
And when I say empathy I mean the capacity to understand or relate to another's feelings and a community as being able to understand and work together as well as experience a community.
While most misc youkai are just youkai and aren't part of a nation, they are only part of the whole that is youkai and do seem to as a majority participate in Gensokyo, otherwise things the spellcard rules and statements made by Zun about the youkai of gensokyo wouldn't make sense.
Although I will admit, youkai don't seem to be very loyal or engaged with the more "youkai-like" aspects of their society, or at least Aya and Eiki think there's a crisis of youkai not acting their youkaist.

>>45303661
Gensokyo is kept in shape not through community or empathy. It's literally just Reimu beating up/murdering anybody that crosses a line they shouldn't. That is why I refuse to call it a society. There is no effort on the part of the subject, simply the direct threat of violence and death.

>>45303775
All societies do that do an extent, are you baiting?
Literally every country uses threats of violence to keep people in line and not break the rules whenever they feel like, if this is one of your standards not even humans meet it.
And the point being, if they are totally anti-social, coummunityless, and empathyless then Gensokyo wouldn't exist in the first place and as lacking all of those things youkai would fall under the definition of a being pure evil or entirely monstrous.
And if your saying youkai only are kept in line by Reimu we know that's false as it's literally said the youkai which comprise nations keep each other in check and understand the value of the human village to them, the fact youkais have nations in the first place means at least some species of youkai are social.

>>45303887
>All societies do that do an extent,
To a extent, sure. But there is still a social contract that is agreed upon by most of the people involved. There is no such thing in Gensokyo, it's purely violence and the threat of violence.

>And the point being, if they are totally anti-social, coummunityless, and empathyless then Gensokyo wouldn't exist in the first place
Only two of the sages shown so far are sages and one of them had the evil literally sucked out of her. Even Yukari MIGHT be a former human.

>and as lacking all of those things youkai would fall under the definition of a being pure evil or entirely monstrous.
Like I said, we know they have the capacity to choose to do evil. My issue is that at every point they CHOSE to do evil. Being lazy does not excuse that. Nobody is going to claim "This serial killer would be bad, but he doesn't put much effort into murdering innocent people so I guess he's fine". Rumia being lazy does not make her a good person, it just makes her a monster that is bad at being a monster. Funny as a concept, but still VERY evil as an person.

>>45303953
*two of the sages shown so far are Youkai

>>45303953
There's literally an social contract between the various powers in Gensokyo on how to act, even excluding the spell card rules the various factions have specific ways of interacting with each other to avoid blood shed, the Kappa and Yamerwaro literally engage in ritual battle and sumo in order to avoid open conflict.
And the influence over the human village is kept partially masked as a matter of course.
They hold tea parties with friends, hold property, have friends, hold social taboos, run food carts.
And i'm not arguing Rumia is some saint, or even that she's a good person, she's just not 100% evil as an individual, and for the record just to make this clear I think is is where a majority of off-screen youkai fall on the spectrum, I just don't think youkai are pure evil of choose to do evil 100% of the time, or else Gensokyo as we see it wouldn't function.
Even pre-Gensokyo when the current political landscape didn't exist youkai weren't pure evil and didn't choose to do evil 100% of the time.

>>45304088
>she's just not 100% evil
It's hard to argue with the guy on this when he label a sign of lack of sympathy as pure evil, that lies, manipulation and being troublesome are monstrous and inhuman when humans are just as capable of naturally performing those in part of everyday's life. In the end it's all boil down to personal preferences, what you wanna label them as and what you wanna do with them.
The thing is not everyone hold the same spectrum of morality. I for one don't give a shit if they are jerks and unsympathetic towards humans. I won't care about them either, but not enough to wish death upon their race as long as people get to survive and live without much trouble.

>>45304088
>There's literally an social contract between the various powers in Gensokyo on how to act, even excluding the spell card rules the various factions have specific ways of interacting with each other to avoid blood shed, the Kappa and Yamerwaro literally engage in ritual battle and sumo in order to avoid open conflict.
Again, you are relying on the largest and most unified factions. Most Youkai are not that. It's closer to a series of diplomatic agreements than a united vibrant society even at the best of times.

>And the influence over the human village is kept partially masked as a matter of course.
That's not a question of social contract, it's just basic common sense.

>They hold tea parties with friends, hold property, have friends, hold social taboos, run food carts.
From PMISS:
*Youkai only think of themselves.
That perfectly describes the limits of their empathy. They have friends in the same way a person has a toy. They have social taboos in the same way it's embarrassing to be seen naked. They hold property only insofar that they do not want their stuff taken. They are simply selfish.

No, they are not "Pure evil". Nobody is pure evil unless they are somehow made out of evil. Rumia's morality is still essentially at the jeffrey dahmer level, and that's more or less the norm among Youkai. The fact they have something resembling a life outside of being sociopathic serial killers does not change that. Human serial killers are also not pure evil, in fact they are most likely less evil than youkai are on average. Yet if you told people "We should keep innocent people trapped against their will for serial killers to torment and other innocent people to kill and eat", people would correctly call you fucking bonkers. Even more so if you then said "It's okay because the people trapped against their will are given free medicine".

>>45304460
>when humans are just as capable of naturally performing those in part of everyday's life.
See above. Nobody is going around defending people that act like Youkai.

>I for one don't give a shit if they are jerks and unsympathetic towards humans.
They are murderous sociopaths bereft of empathy who actively requires them to keep people trapped in shitty living standards to sustain their unnatural existence. If they were just jerks or unsympathetic, that would be one thing. They not only require people to actively suffer to exist, but they use their existence to spread misery and pain to everybody around them.

>their race as long as people get to survive and live without much trouble.
Tell that to every outsider who was violently murdered. Every person like Fortune Teller who spent their lives miserable and envious of what they lost. Every random like the salt merchant that died unnecessary because of the existence of Youkai.

>>45304866

PMiSS is suspect, not only due to it's age, but it's written by Akyuu, the same person who tells people to go around letting their frustrations out at fairies and put a hit out on letty white, despite Zun's own word of god that she's harmless.
She also lacks authenticity, literally publishing her own Sakuya fanfiction admits to as much, but then gives the reader no other options.
I would only entirely trust interviews transcripts, at the very least Akyuu admits to her bias and says her works work not be applicable anymore.
Also "basic common sense" is a bit of a loaded term, but generally it means, something that can be derived by simple logic, an opinion which is stated as fact, or as by the rules of out society dictate.
Common sense exist within the context of society, societies have social contracts, if you use the wiki you can find the interview I screenshotted and read ZUN talking about Gensokyo's society.
Also youkai aren't just serial killers, they need humans to survive and don't want to die, serial killers don't need to kill to live. Human serial killers are literally worse than youkai in that respect.
And I'm not saying it's okay, I have literally never said that or called youkai good, i'm saying they are less evil than you posit.
Not to mention the fact the youkai aren't allowed to hurt the villagers and only hurt outsiders, and we don't have statistics on outsiders deaths so it's entirely up to headcannon how many die, how much of them youkai eat, why the youkai eat them... etc
Although at least some of them like the Kappa need them due to dietary reasons, that is if they haven't replaced humans with an alternative source of salt they don't find gross.
But that's also almost entirely speculative.

>>45305055
>the same person who tells people to go around letting their frustrations out at fairies
Mostly because they can take it. I don't agree with it entirely, but I do get it.

>She also lacks authenticity, literally publishing her own Sakuya fanfiction admits to as much, but then gives the reader no other options.
That doesn't mean everything she writes is totally unreliable however. She's pretty open about her biases and when she's guessing. The thing is though that, the reason why I find her comment believable, is because she mostly seems to be right. Youkai do only think of themselves. Even their friendships are hollow and shallow.

>if you use the wiki you can find the interview I screenshotted and read ZUN talking about Gensokyo's society.
I mean, there are plenty of interviews, could you give a link to the exact one you found?

>Also youkai aren't just serial killers
My issue isn't that they are "Just" serial killers, it's that they are serial killers.

You can be a serial killer, and also a carpenter, but I still think it's bad you kill people.

>serial killers don't need to kill to live
Youkai don't either. Yet, they still do it all the time. The possibility that they merely murder 10 outsiders every month instead of a hundred doesn't change that.

>Although at least some of them like the Kappa need them due to dietary reasons,
Which is the only thing that approaches acceptability. I still think everything else the Kappa does makes it pretty easy to justify genocide, but at least that particular brand of evil is not a choice for them.

>>45305105
https://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/ZUN%27s_reply_to_messages_on_the_former_Gensou_Bulletin_Board_3
There's a difference between, "fairies can take a hit or death" and encouraging people to kill them, same goes for letty white, like wtf Akyuu. She may admit to some bias but it's clearly worse then she thinks it is, I mean who does that?
My speculation at the end was me supposing that, yes some youkai probably do kill because they want to, some probably kill because they need to, but without detailed statistics or more in depth information it can'r be said definitively either way.
The way I see it the youkai mainly seem disinterested in killing humans and the ones that are killed are probably by youkai who exists on the outskirts of Gensokyo's society or by the youkai like Kappa who need to kill humans.
Even then individual youkai themselves would be responsible for it, also yukari if she gapped the human.
But what? Outside of killing people in order to survive the Kappa do bad enough shit to justify genocide?

>>45304866
>shitty living standards
>people to actively suffer
>spread misery and pain
Lol it's not that bad. It's only horrible in comparison to outside world where people appear free, allowed to develop and manipulation isn't as blatant. Most of the villagers are fine living as it is. They don't appear to suffer or crying from minor youkai pranks or human casualties from people going reckless or breaking the rule. They just need to stay in the village. They "suffer" in the same way people in the outside world also has to deal with crimes and other inconveniences and warning you about death from dangerous places like wild forest or gang turf. Total freedom and development aren't as crucial for living and morality as you think it is, unless humans are literally shackled in prison and fed like pigs.

>Tell that to every outsider who was violently murdered
Their fault for going to dangerous places and ignore the warnings.
>Every person like Fortune Teller who spent their lives miserable and envious of what they lost.
FT lost nothing. He wanted more because he has big ego of not wanting to be ruled and his life was fine before he acquired the secret knowledge.
>Every random like the salt merchant that died unnecessary
Few rare cases.

You said "every" but how many cases of people who can't handle living in the village, dying from supernatural causes or even the number of youkai prey outside the village? These things at certain degree will quickly cause mass hysteria and eventually rebellion but the fact that human village has been shown to be relatively peaceful means these are not big issues.
Like anon said, you need clear statistics and examples to justify your claim of their suffering and misery. That would be like visible general dissatisfaction, mass panic, hysteria, rebellion, number of casualties from incidents inside the village, etc. Hell, you do need clear statistics of victims outside the village to justify your statement that youkai certainly kill on sight. Otherwise, you're just blowing up few rare cases, dubious hints, speculations, or even the "misery" itself entirely driven by your feelings about youkai and morality.
Also, lack of knowledge isn't misery either. You only get to say their life is shitty in comparison of something they don't know like the modern world, but you can't say that people who live in 1910 are miserable and suffering, just as people in human village.

>>45299571
Her own words when being interviewed. She states that she killed all the vampires that were already living in Gensokyo when they got there.

>>45306536
the only interview with her I can think of is her BAiJR one, where she says nothing of the sort
is it a different one?

>>45299884
That's the thing, though. It says the "vampire incident" was causing issues, but it never says anywhere that we know of that anybody actually got hurt, only that it was a major problem. We can guess and extrapolate what little info we have, but for all we know it was just Remilia kicking the shit out of other youkai and threatening to run the show until the other big names got fed up with her tantrum and knocked her down a peg. Or it could have culminated in them having a sit down talk with her or whatever. We really don't know. But we can guess that she may have attacked/threatened some humans in the village so they would remember her and she could cement the fear of the Scarlet Devil in the minds of the humans to establish a mental anchor point in the populace.
But what little we do have does point to the SDM being in Gensokyo as early as 1998, her own statement of killing whatever other "vampires" were in that world when she got there, and then her causing some kind of trouble with a possible "mastermind" motive of causing the spell card thing because she's looking for a place to basically retire. She's already said the era of the devils have passed and that she's kind of okay with it in one of the print works.

>>45305229
The word society isn't even used in this. The closest you get is ZUN saying humans and Youkai developed a culture. Which, is not the same thing as a society.

>but without detailed statistics or more in depth information it can'r be said definitively either way.
I would say it's pretty definitive that outsiders are murdered. That by itself makes Gensokyo as well as 99% of the cast pretty irredeemable.

>probably by youkai who exists on the outskirts of Gensokyo's society
Like? Rumia clearly attacks humans, is she outside of it?

>Even then individual youkai themselves would be responsible for it, also yukari if she gapped the human.
It's a consistent cultural trend. If it's not murder, it's tricks, if it's not tricks it's cons. All youkai are immoral shits.

>Outside of killing people in order to survive the Kappa do bad enough shit to justify genocide?
Yes? They are shitty con artists who go around tricking people when they don't murder them. Like every other youkai, there existence is a net negative. Best you can say is they are more justified in their murdering.

>>45306615
considering the end result was the devil contract being made for the youkai to provide humans to the vampire in exchange for the SDM not attacking humans, we can assume that whatever she did probably involved some sort of widespread damage to the village

>>45303017
>>as if it's a real place.
He doesn't know.

>>45305728
>It's only horrible in comparison to outside world where people appear free,
1: Yes? That's my point. 2: Outsiders are murdered, that is "Spreading misery and pain".

>Their fault for going to dangerous places and ignore the warnings.
What warnings? Some random Japanese person gapped by Yukari isn't going to get any warnings.

>before he acquired the secret knowledge.
So he was miserable and the existence of Gensokyo actively depends on the misery of people like him. Yet more reason the place is irredeemable.

>Few rare cases.
Even one case is one too many.

>You said "every"
Like I said above, even one too many. The fact we have at least several is enough of a reason for me to write off Gensokyo as beyond saving and most Youkai are evil and immoral.

>but the fact that human village has been shown to be relatively peaceful means these are not big issues.
Because they have been beaten into submission? That is the active misery I was talking about. The human villagers are a broken down people who have shown, time and time again, they do not wish to be in Gensokyo. The fact they haven't gone so far to just create a giant suicide cult and end it heaven gate style does not change that fact. The human villagers keep on going not because they are content, but because they have been broken. If they were content, they would not adore the outside world. If they were content, they would not create secret societies with the intent of Youkai genocide. If they were content, FT wouldn't exist.

>Hell, you do need clear statistics of victims outside the village to justify your statement that youkai certainly kill on sight.
No? It's mentioned as 100% true both in and out of universe. There are zero examples of Youkai helping lost outsiders, but countless examples of outsiders being murdered.

>Also, lack of knowledge isn't misery either.
They do know about the outside world. In fact, they fucking love knowing about it. That's why they eagerly absorb any information.

>>45306648
*Countless mentions of outsiders being murdered
Only real example I can think about is Dolls in pseudo Paradise.

>>45306573
Not sure. I know she talked about it and specifically says that she "killed the ones who were here before" or something to that effect, but I could have sworn she was talking to either Aya or Yukari about it.

>>45306632
Possibly, and I'd lead towards that myself, but with how ambiguous Touhou is, for all we know she could have just kicked down the front gates while laughing, spread her wings, and said some callback reference to Jojo or Castlevania that the villagers wouldn't get, then bellowed about the Scarlet Devil, and dipped back to the mansion for tea and cake (with blood in it, not human meat like the few Anons self-interpreted and then ran with back when Flan was first being talked about)

>>45306661
I've been checking and I can't find anything to suggest this is true. Even Akyuu's article in PMiSS doesn't necessarily say that there aren't other vampires, it's just that only the SDM is of particular notoriety

>>45306692
I tend to assume she tried to take it over. Which, considering the human village has no government probably meant she just walked inside and screamed at villagers like you said.

>>45306702
I know it was said somewhere by Remilia because she's one of my top three favorites and I had a moment of obsession where I soaked up everything about the SDM I could find. I can't remember where it was said but it is from official sources, though validity of in world is up for debate, just like she lies about the Dracula connection. If I can find the source, I'll drop it here.

>>45306616
A society has a culture, the society of Gensokyo has a culture, if anything to have a culture you need a society.
Also I disagree that con-artistry and scamming is a crime deserving of death, and that it is not deserving of genocide.
Similarly I do not value the lives of any being in terms of net positive of negative, and feel that by the same standard every other living thing is undeserving of live, unless you com from the position of the propagation of life itself being a net-positive in which case a youkai life is worth just as much as a human life, if you say only the lives of humans are of net-value then by that same logic subhumans, non-humans are monsters undeserving of life no matter the consequence, which is also something I cannot agree with.
I do not like the evil actions committed by youkai and the needless killing, but neither will I condemn their kind to death.
Also we already established, Rumia is too shit at everything and too lazy to attack people.
I thought the other Anon was overeacting when he said you would punish trickery with genocide, but I guess he was wrong and I was the fool.

>>45307178
I would say the opposite is true. You can have a culture without a society.

>Also I disagree that con-artistry and scamming is a crime deserving of death
I agree.

Having to murder outsiders and keep the villagers trapped, only to use your life to trick and con those same people them for your own amusement and profit. That does make you irredeemably evil.

>Similarly I do not value the lives of any being in terms of net positive of negative,
I do not. Human lives are worth more than animals. That's why we don't view a butcher and a murderer of humans in the same way. Nor do we view a person killing bacteria the same way as we do somebody that murders a cat.

>if you say only the lives of humans are of net-value then by that same logic subhumans, non-humans are monsters undeserving of life no matter the consequence, which is also something I cannot agree with.
A life is only worth as much as the way people use it. My issue with Youkai is that they have the freedom to do as they please, and still use it to be evil. Combined that with the suffering created by their existence, and they simply do not deserve to life.

>but neither will I condemn their kind to death
I will. They are beyond redemption. If Gensokyo is required for them to exist, and this is how they use the gift of life, then they do not deserve to exist.

>I thought the other Anon was overeacting when he said you would punish trickery with genocide
It's not about trickery. It's about the fact that this, fucking this, is how they choose to use their existence. Their existence obtained at the cost of countless innocent people that are, frankly, far more deserving of a chance at happiness in the outside world. It is very much a zero sum game. And the actions of Youkai have showed where your sympathy should go.

>>45307212
Well I guess we agree to disagree then, also yes while we by default value human lives more than other lives, in this scenario youkai exist and are living beings with free will capable of thought and for all intensive purposes are on the cognitive abilities of humans.
And while I don't condone their actions, O would rather judge youkai not as a whole due to the variety of species and individuals among them, an Inaba is not a Kappa and vice versa.
And it's not a matter of deserving to exist in my eyes, nobody "deserves" to exist, not neither does anybody deserve to die, we all try are best and live as we do, boiling life down to a game of "net-positives" is ultimately detrimental to all life.
That said as a human I naturally value human lives over others.

>>45306615
>We really don't know
So, after the damage Remilia caused to Gensokyo, she was free to go? After such an incident that made every youkai sit down and say 'oh, well, now fights are more ritualistic, no more bloodshed'? After presumably killing a lot of youkai? The same people Yukari protected by creating Gensokyo in the first place? Gappy is untrustworthy even for youkai's standarts, but she isn't as batshit insane as to let that happen. Geez, you anons are making her as if she decided one day that she needed to murder both humans and youkai in mass to get some rules for ritual fights, and invited a fucking vampire into Gensokyo just to do the dirty job.
Its just not logical, its serves no purpose, and its even outside Yukari's character to do something as brutal and petty as that
>her own statement of killing whatever other "vampires" were in that world when she got there
I wouldn't trust Remilia's word, she's totally the type to say things just to look cool. There just aren't any vampires aside from her and her sister in Gensokyo, and since Akyuu can't figure out that there weren't any before her, so she takes it as fact from her

The main fact is that we don't know exactly what happened, but its unlikely Remilia did so much damage to Gensokyo and got away with it

>>45307573
>free to go, etc.
>we don't know

That's what the Anon was saying. We only have certain things to go off of, but literally everything else is "fill in the blank" with our own ideas or with what little we can deduce from the sources provided. We know she caused a major issue, we know there was retaliation in some sense, we know that there was a contract made, and we know that the spellcards were made as a result of all of this.

She wasn't free to go, but she is bound by an "unbreakable" contract, and "devils" take that stuff seriously, which is why they always try to weasel out of them, so if it was an ironclad contract then she may very well be "punished" to this day. We just don't know to what extent. We also don't know the casualty count, if any, that may exist on all the sides. And while Yukari may not be "blood for the blood god", she is a manipulative little shit. So there very well could have been a sit down moment as the mansion was hanging out in the Outside somewhere and Yukari got with Remi to basically go "ok, you and I both need certain things so how do we asspull this whole deal without making it look like it was all according to keikaku? How about you start some shit and we pretend to kick your ass or make a deal with you so the upstarts don't actually try anything. Two birds, one stone. You get the fame and fear, we get rid of the little assholes that won't let us live in the peace we've carved out because they have the big head. Just like that stunt me and Ran pulled back on the first lunar invasion to get rid of the garbage that wouldn't submit to the rules. Plus, you'll get an army, a name, and security, and I'll get rid of some headaches and the local shrine maiden with bloodlust and boredom in spades gets to stretch her legs and "keep the balance". We can have cake and tea later,ok?" And Remilia, in her perpetual boredom went "lol, ok."

>>45307241
>And while I don't condone their actions, O would rather judge youkai not as a whole due to the variety of species and individuals among them, an Inaba is not a Kappa and vice versa.
You are getting it, unlike the other extremist. Should we kill Kogasa for Rumia's actions? Should all fairies get genocided just because tengu are literal ((((them)))) with wings?

We could make a discussion about which species are worth keeping around, and which ones should get just genocided, that sounds better that pointless morality discussions (not even humans care about it, the only times they do care about it is when they are crying bloody murder when getting eaten by a bear)

>>45307685
>We know she caused a major issue, we know there was retaliation in some sense, we know that there was a contract made, and we know that the spellcards were made as a result of all of this.
How doesn't Akyuu know about Remilia until the Scarlet Mist? If what you say about her threatening the village or attacking is true, why doesn't Akyuu acknowledges her as the culprit?
>she is a manipulative little shit.
Its one thing to be manipulative, its one thing to let the very people you protect get killed. The vampire incident was pretty bad, it wasn't just "ok, lets just take tea now that its over". Its not plausible that Yukari just invited Remilia, told her 'sure, ok, go do your thing to get my gay yugioh shit going'

>>45307779
>Doesn't know of Remilia until then.
Nobody said she didn't as far as I'm aware. But that's again something we have to fill out based on the limited info we have. But she does state that anything vampire-wise is explicitly talking about the SDM crew, Remilia specifically. So maybe she did, maybe she didn't, maybe she didn't give a damn until Remilia showed up on the stage, basically. We simply don't have much to go off of at the moment. But we do know that the youkai work in the background and like to keep to themselves, even if certain humans are in the know. It could be that she actually didn't know of them until then due to being kept in the dark until her part of the story was needed.

>Yukari-Remilia back deals.
But that's the thing, Anon-we don't know who all was killed, if anyone. It could be that bad actors were killed, it could be that thanks to Youkai logic only those with certain attitudes or mindsets or those who wore different colored socks, or whatever, were the only ones that got killed. We don't even know if there was any actual human bloodshed. it could have been a "look on my works, ye mighty, and despair", or it could have been "you can rough em up, but don't kill" and she accidentally did, or it could have been a solely youkai-youkai dispute with the humans as the prize. The humans could have been chilling in the village while armageddon happened in the forest and they didn't even know. There's too much ambiguity for us to know the full details. But while Yukari doesn't like the idea of killing certain people, she will actively and absolutely murk as many as it takes for her little utopia to work. Maybe there was a bunch of humans that started gathering together and the Sages used that as a method to eliminate them, cement Remilia's existence, and clean house of the troublesome Youkai, while also changing things on the societal scale for a more "peaceful" way of doing things in the future. I didn't say Yukari told her "go wreck shit", but it is known that Remilia is a lot more intelligent and wise than she lets on, while Yukari tries to play 6d chess-she's a dude playing a dude pretending to be another dude. So for them to pull a multi-step program isn't that far-fetched. Yukari already did it specifically for the whole moon debacle when she cleaned house to "teach the youkai restraint". Everyone lives in Gensokyo to live their lives, but there is also a part of the whole concept where they are aware that they are all playing actors and having to keep up appearances, for survival and otherwise.

But at the end of the day, we're only left with little plot point snippets, and can only hypothesize as to the finer details.

>>45307241
>in this scenario youkai exist and are living beings with free will capable of thought and for all intensive purposes are on the cognitive abilities of humans.
I find it impossible to view them the same way. They are selfish, sociopathic, and lacking in empathy on average. I just don't view their lives as worthy of value.

>O would rather judge youkai not as a whole due to the variety of species and individuals among them,
Sure. But a few good eggs doesn't justify the fact that the world of Touhou would be a better place if Gensokyo went away.

>>45307721
>Should we kill Kogasa for Rumia's actions?
No, but we shouldn't be keeping anybody trapped for the sake of somebody like Rumia being alive. If that means Kogasa has to die, then so be it. Youkai had their time, and everything dies eventually.

>>45308066
>If that means Kogasa has to die, then so be it.
The end justifies the means approach has only caused more misery to anyone involved in history
Imagine yourself getting air striked alongside your entire neighborhood, just because there were three terrorists hiding there. You are the Kogasa in the situation
You are also extremely unreasonable: you have been proven wrong many times by the other anons, that while Gensokyo isn't a paradise, it's not as bad as you think, but you keep being stubborn time and time again everytime this discussion rises up

>>45308483
This is not "The ends justify the means" this is "The means justify the end". Liberating the human villagers, breaking the barrier, and improving their living standard. All of those are noble and good acts. The fact they will most likely invertedly exterminate the Youkai population of Gensokyo only goes to show that population was awful in the first place.

>that while Gensokyo isn't a paradise, it's not as bad as you think
I don't care if it's "not as bad". This is a matter of principles. Abducting somebody and keeping them locked against their will does not suddenly become okay just because you don't totally mistreat that person.

>>45308731
Anon, no one said that it is okay but you just warrant genocide for those things. You know, even in real world people who steal and kill don't immediately given death sentence. Same with people who cause civil unrest. You can't even take someone to court for simply being unsymphatetic and manipulative, but suddenly youkai deserve genocide for inflicting as much? Because they're not upholding the highest and most ideal form of morality that can't even be applied in human society?

>they will most likely invertedly exterminate the Youkai population of Gensokyo
Where the hell does this even come from? Do you have any canon citation for this?

>>45308731
>Liberating the human villagers, breaking the barrier, and improving their living standard
Just in time for the global crisis and the WW3, way to go, hero. I bet that human on human killings outnumber youkai on human killings by a huge margin
>This is a matter of principles.
Your problem is that you are trying to apply absolutistic morality in a complex situation, and human centric views on a world where there are more intelligent beings aside from humanity. The second is understandable, but the first? You are practically asking for a lot of people to commit suicide, most of those people that aren't that evil to begin with. Uncaring, aloof, cold, self interested? Sure, maybe, not like the average human acts any different to anyone outside their family circle

>>45308932
>Do you have any canon citation for this?
Aya does believe that this would happen if the barrier gets destroyed

>>45308731
The humans of the village would be thrown into a world where they have no skills that they can't live off of, are mostly uneducated in both academics and modern social norms, and probably have the shittiest immune systems available do to how isolated they were.
Can't wait for them to also experience the wonderful geopolitics that Japan is stuck in, the high unemployment rate, high rent, high inflation, and the poison that has now contaminated the fish population.

At this point I think lore threads and their derivatives have to be put on hold. Not because there's nothing to talk about, but because they always devolve into either "muh Armstrong" or "how dare you like/dislike the Moe Gaza strip". Enough of this shit already, you are clearly not convincing each other of anything.

>>45310239
I just wanted people to bully Kasen because she’s an annoying hypocrite whose objectively hurt more people than 90% of the “bad” youkai

>>45310282
You're not rallying anybody with that extreme moralfaggotry, fag.
Keep that shit to yourself.

>>45308932
I do not warrant genocide, it is merely an unintentional side effect of doing the right thing.

>Because they're not upholding the highest and most ideal form of morality that can't even be applied in human society?
Because it's the right thing to help the human villagers.

>Where the hell does this even come from?
The entire status quo of Gensokyo, as well as the barrier existing, is to preserve Youkai. If you were to end the status quo and break the barrier, it would most likely cause the extinction of Youkai.

>>45308939
>Just in time for the global crisis and the WW3,
Japan will be fine. It's not Bangladesh.

>and human centric views on a world where there are more intelligent beings aside from humanity.
Because the other intelligent beings either nave no morality or self identify as evil.

>You are practically asking for a lot of people to commit suicide
I'm asking them to accept their fate. To stop harming people, and to die peacefully.

>most of those people that aren't that evil to begin with.
Again, it does not matter. Helping the human villagers is the right thing to do. Any unfortunate side effects do not change that.

>Sure, maybe, not like the average human acts any different to anyone outside their family circle
Please. Your average human villager is a freaking saint compared to a youkai.

>>45310239
Like I said, I like discussions because the cute nature of Gensokyo means people are actually willing to discuss morality. If they all looked like evil monsters, nobody would think twice about youkai genocide and everybody would universally agree Gensokyo has to go.

>>45311226
I get what you mean, but to me this discussion is still a pointless "nuh-uh" exchange.
Maybe if youkai had some actual redeeming qualities, like in fanworks, there would be a point to it, but as it is, it's like discussing whether or not killing tapeworms with cute puppy eyes is moral - the answer is obvious, arguing is pointles, yet, somehow, it's done to death and we can't move on.

>>45310282
kasen was the small fish amongst the oni on mt ooe
whatever she did, suika and yuugi did worse
and the kasen we get by the time touhou takes place has spent over a thousand years trying to do good. What we see of her is mostly her trying to do good things

>>45311664
FGO's depiction of Ibaraki honestly ruined Kasen for me.

Same for Suika. I can't not imagine Suika speaking with Aoi Yuuki sex voice.

>>45311751
>>45311751
it's common courtesy to not announce yourself as a disgusting gachapiggy

>>45311616
It's pointless because it's all boil down to personal preferences. You see that the discussion always end with basically "I THINK they are super bad. I WANT them dead". "Well I don't". The thing is not everyone hold the same degree and obligation of morality, but it's just look like one keep constantly pushing and cranking up their idea while the other just find it too forced and ridiculous, even if they're not completely at disagreement.

Are we ever going to have Suika and Nemuno meet? Like, Nemuno is supposed to be the mountain hag who raised Kintoki (If not her actual mother). You think "Your shitty son decapitated me" would get some kind of mention.

>>45311770
>It's pointless because it's all boil down to personal preferences.
I frankly mostly just find it a denial of canon. Yeah, you can argue Youkai aren't THAT bad on average. But they are genuinly lacking in redeeming qualities. When the best you can say about them is "well, they seem to have friends", you don't have much to work with. It's holding them to a insanely low standard.

>>45311788
*I frankly view it mostly just as a denial of canon

>>45311778
it's rare that any kind of historical connection between characters get mentioned
like, mokou and yuyuko are actually related, and tojiko might have killed mokou's grandfather
you should count yourself lucky that Grimoire of Usami actually has seija talk about saguma at one point

>>45311824
Yeah, I know. But it feels weird they went out of their way to explicitly make her the hag that raised Kintoki only to do nothing with it.

>>45311616
There were yokai mentioned in this thread that do have redeeming qualities (like Ran). I'd also like to mention Keine. Village teacher who also protects the village. Literally invalidates what you said. As other anons said the actual mythology also shows yokai who have redeeming qualities.But i guess there's no reasoning with someone who has an emotionally fueled throbbing hate boner for yokai. How do you have such a comically simplistic black and white view of a race that has wildly different characters with different backstories, motivations and personalities? Makes me wonder how much lore you actually read and how much lore you actually understand. I know you aren't gonna bother understanding anything i say, im just posting this for another anons to see. Also picrel.

>>45311840
>(like Ran)
Literally works for a child serial killer.

> I'd also like to mention Keine.
Basically a werewolf. Even in the worst case scenario, she would be totally fine. Most likely she would be rid of her curse and be fine.

> As other anons said the actual mythology also shows yokai who have redeeming qualities.
Anon, part of your point is that they are explicitly distant from actual mythology. They are now free to be their own person. "They did X in the myths" doesn't cut it much longer.

>How do you have such a comically simplistic black and white view of a race that has wildly different characters with different backstories, motivations and personalities?
Like I said, it does not matter. The issue with Gensokyo is that it exists. Like I said, genocide is not the goal. Just a seeming side effect of doing the morally correct action of helping the human villagers.

>Also picrel.
Doesn't this imply that most Youkai are explicitly evil? Not like "different morality", just unambiguously evil in a D&D kind of way.

>>45311788
>I frankly view it mostly
>lacking in redeeming qualities
>insanely low standard
Okay that's your opinion anon. Shut up.
We are not doing this again.
I don't wanna keep repeating this but many people just don't care about what youkai think as long they have way to live with no trouble and they don't care about upholding moral high standard like ideal harmony between youkai and human. You don't have call it denial of canon as if people who know will instantly agree with you. Now that is just unnecessarily shitty.
Just accept people have different standard and move on.

look at this totally irredeemable shitbag
completely amoral piece of shit
creature of nightmares
needs to be killed for the good of humanity

>>45311868
>Okay that's your opinion anon
No?

Like, name the redeeming qualities.

>but many people just don't care about what youkai think as long they have way to live with no trouble
Sure. The human villagers are not one of them. Their wishes are to be respected.

>You don't have call it denial of canon as if people who know will instantly agree with you
Again, name, the, redeeming, qualities.

"They have friends" doesn't cut it. Hitler had friends. Pol Pot had friends. Most serial killers had friends.

>>45311873
Aunn would probably just go back to be a statue and not mind too much.

>>45311770
>personal preferences
>>45311840
>emotionally fueled
>>45311857
>Just accept people have different standard and move on
Anon, keeping people hostage and cannibalism being evil is not up to debate. "Different standards" have nothing to do with it. This is what I meant in here >>45311616
Just why do you bother trying to prove that tapeworms with googly eyes are not all bad?

>>45311824
We're lucky if we get to see any interesting character interactions in general, since ZUN usually just shoves the same handful of characters into everything.

>>45311943
I mean, he at least seems to finally be realizing Flandre is more popular than cocaine.

>>45311943
I'm starting to suspect he retconed the Village having their own exorcists just so he could shove Reimu into more things.

>>45311950
yeah but she doesn't actually have particularly interesting character interactions, since she just acts like an edgelord and everyone else is like 'yeah okay flan whatever you fucking loser'
19 was the first time in forever that we had a lot of characters that we don't regularly see interact with each other

>>45311215
>I do not warrant genocide, it is merely an unintentional side effect of doing the right thing.
read >>45308939
>Your problem is that you are trying to apply absolutistic morality in a complex situation
>human centric views on a world where there are more intelligent beings aside from humanity.
People know the villagers have it bad retard we don't think they have it bad enough where they immediately need saving, we want it to be better for them.
But destroying the barrier would mean Youkai genocide and at the end of the day there are two situations.
Either
Youkai are not pure evil
The situation has moral complexities
So destroying the barrier thus genocide is not warranted
Or
Youkai are pure evil
The situation has no moral complexities
destroying the barrier thus genocide is warranted

You can say over and over again it's the right thing to do, and yeah saving the humans is good, but you'd also kill the youkai of gensokyo, which is tantamount to genocide and not something people would be comfortable with.
It's actually somewhat ironic you display the very own youkai like mentality you despise the youkai for having, but closer to the political fringes of Seija, Aya, and Eiki.

>>45311997
>>Your problem is that you are trying to apply absolutistic morality in a complex situation
See: >>45311932
>Anon, keeping people hostage and cannibalism being evil is not up to debate.

>we want it to be better for them.
Like I said, it's a zero sum situation. Better for human villagers means worse for Youkai.

>which is tantamount to genocide and not something people would be comfortable with.
For fuck sake, Kasen is one of the nicer people in Gensokyo and even she wants the barrier to break.

>>45312024
>even she wants the barrier to break
does she? she only broke it in ULiL so people could go and stop sumireko from committing a righteous jihad, and she only breaks through it herself to go and look for her arm

>>45312024
>>Anon, keeping people hostage and cannibalism being evil is not up to debate.
We've talked about it before, mitigating factors. In your situation you see the youkai as pure evil sub humans, but to others they at the very least aren't entirely that.
So we're back to the scenario 1 & 2.
Retard.

>>45312036
I don't remember the exact place. But at one point in Wahh she was praying for the barrier to go down one daty.

>>45312053
>We've talked about it before, mitigating factors
Yeah...

uh...

...They have friends?

KASENSMAMKASENSAMAKASENSAMAKASENSAMAKASENSAMAKASENSAMAKASENSAMAKASENSAMAILOVEYOUKASENSAMA

Just kiss already you fucking buffoons.

>>45312064
*To go down one day

>>45312053
>So we're back to the scenario 1 & 2.
How about a third scenario?

>Youkai are not pure evil
>The situation has some moral complexitiy.
>Destroying the barrier is still the right thing to do regardless of that.

>>45311898
>>45311932
Anon, you're literally forcing me to uphold high moral standard. I'm not saying they are not bad, but you keep asking me to think about moral in them and my statement.
My opinion is that I don't a give shit. People don't give a shit what they think. If I live there I just avoid them youks to survive like anybody else, while in reader perspective I just wanna see what they do. I just don't wanna constantly screaming about how bad things are when I can help it and obliged to do "good" for the betterment of human race.

>>45312093
>Anon, you're literally forcing me to uphold high moral standard.
Cannibalism and open air prisons are wrong?

>If I live there I just avoid them youks to survive like anybody else
If you lived there you would be openly wishing for Youkai genocide like the rest of the human villagers.

>while in reader perspective I just wanna see what they do.
So do I. That doesn't change the fact I have zero sympathy for them. Touhou doesn't attempt high drama for a reason.

>>45312068
only good post in this thread

>>45312087
That's not really a viable scenario, due to the genocide aspect of it. genocide can only be morally good in a scenario where the genocided party consists of entirely evil sub-humans.
Fuck the creation of gensokyo itself basically exists because of this.
Although in the bigger picture youkai will always exist and the only way to trully eliminate them would be both to destroy humanity and the lunarians, but that's a moot point for this morality debate since we're talking specifically about gensokyo.

>>45312087
Then Touhou wouldn't be a farcical satire.

>>45311873
Eh, she's closer to a deity than a youkai like they're typically understood. I don't think the people advocating for the youkai genocide are calling for her death as well.

>>45312110
>Cannibalism and open air prisons are wrong?
It's wrong but I won't bitch about it if I can help it. If I can avoid being cannibalized and live inside air prison that's fine by me.

>If you lived there you would be openly wishing for Youkai genocide like the rest of the human villagers
Now you're just projecting your view on me.

>That doesn't change the fact I have zero sympathy for them
I didn't ask about what you think, anon. I already told you to leave each opinion alone.
Like I said I just don't wanna keep screaming about high-end moral all the fucking time.

>>45297740
Doomguy genocides the fuck out of Gensokyo when?

>>45312120
If helping people causes an genocide by accident, then whose fault is that? Like I said, the means justify the end. Improving the lives of the human villagers carrying with it the potenial of genocide does not make the act itself questionable. If you feed a starving child and save him from dying, it does not suddenly become a bad act because the child grows up to be a murderer. Might as well argue it's wrong for Eirin to sell live saving medicine.

>>45312244
Sounds like the spoiled words of somebody who is at risk of neither.

No, you are projecting onto the villagers. They have made it clear they don't want to be there.

>>45312244
>>45312110
Actually, ZUN views the oppression of humans by these youkais positively.
He never portrayed it negatively, but rather often included references to humans being evil in his writings.
This is entirely due to ZUN's views and ideology. ZUN loves youkais, even their evil things. That's all.

>>45312287
>They have made it clear they don't want to be there.
Source on that?

>>45312268
Genocide is morally different from murder. While murder is bad and in that scenario the person has no idea the child grows up to be a murderer, but you have to knowingly commit genocide, which is the worst crime.
Trying to subject something to extinction, genocide, is usually considered one of if not the evilest act, that's why it can only be committed against an unambiguous evil.
So back to scenario 1 and 2.

>>45312292
>ZUN loves youkais, even their evil things.
I agree. He is really weird and twisted. ZUN spoke Oni's hunting of humans favorably.

>>45312292
Maybe ZUN was just evil all along...

>>45312292
>Youkai is evil and defended
>it is beacuase ZUN is evil
Shit, are more than half of all fiction creators evil!?

>>45312346
anon just because you like fictional monsters and write about them as cool (because you think they are cool) it doesn't mean that you're actually evil in reality

>>45312358
But he doesn't make them cool, they're kind of pathetic.

>>45312287
What risk? I can just not go to the forest and I'll only find minor incident inside the village.
Am I supposed to bitch and cry about injustice when my body and home are still completely intact?

>>45312358
In interviews, ZUN mentioned the problems of the outside world countless times, but never once mentioned the problems of Gensokyo. Even he refused questions about Gensokyo's bad sides too. (Source: Strange Creators of Outer World's interview.)

>>45312388
why did he refuse it, anyone ideas?

>>45312287
I know FT has, but he's a sperg, an evil wizard, and thought being a youkai was the bees-knees, you know the very thing which you would condemn as evil.
We don't know how the village itself feels, and yoaukai naturally inhabit areas where humans are at risk, if you go to DEVIL POINT in MURDER VALLEY next to the river which will sweep you away anyways and that sits next to SKULL MOUNTAIN, I don't think getting harassed by a youkai is your biggest concern as a villager.
Besides we know the youkai don't kill villagers as long as they are villagers, so you would only be in harm if you left the village and set up a home there.

>>45312370
honestly, that's just another kind of loving the characters
most of the characters, humans and youkai, are kind of losers. They're all dorks with weird personalities and traits who fixate on strange things and speak nonsense, and they all get easily tricked by each other and swindled constantly
the entire series is a bunch of lovable dorks so even the most scheming cunts like aya constantly lose the newspaper competitions and barely anyone actually likes her

>>45312388
>Rejects Humans
>Accepts man-eating-Youkais

ZUUUUUUUUUUUUN

>>45312388
>Source: Strange Creators of Outer World's interview
Which one?

>>45312412
Because the outside world issues are real issues while Gensokyo is fictional. Simple as.
You're all the one being fucking obsessed weirdos for taking fictional issues too seriously.
Besides, ZUN only addressed the outside world issues without having strong opinion on them.

>>45312298
>Obsessed with the outside world.
>Secret society
>Fortune Teller
>Not a single example of a villager wanting to stay in Gensokyo, liking Youkai, or having their lives improved by Youkai.

>>45312326
So, if you know a child is going to grow up to be a murderer, it's fine to let them die?

>Trying to subject something to extinction, genocide, is usually considered one of if not the evilest act,
Arguably. But even if it is, like I said, the means justify the end. If the exploitation is so vile and thorough that improving the lives of one wipes out the other, few people would call that Genocide.

>>45312442
All of them.
I checked all pages and interviews so that I can find the negative opinions he made about Gensokyo,

There is no one.

What he saw negatively are Animal realm, Moon, and Outside world, especially after Covid.

>>45312466
>So, if you know a child is going to grow up to be a murderer, it's fine to let them die?
Honestly I don't know, it's a philosophical problem for the ages, but personally I could never kill a child.
So while I'd feel guilty for letting the child live and blame myself for the deaths of the child's future victims I couldn't bring myself to kill the child.

>>45312467
well, he said animal realm as dystopia lol

>>45312467
I meant the ones where he refused to answer the questions about Gensokyo's bad sides, which ones were those?
>>45312464
Fictional issues are interesting to discuss. Except Touhou ones, they're rather simple despite what you might think, only fanworks give them any nuance.

>>45312495
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9YQ9EzaXSDc
2軒目から始まるラジオ（第154回）

>>45312543
>2 hours 54 minutes long
>there is not timestamp
Seriously?

>>45312424
>Sperg
Sure.

>Evil wizard
What, magic can be evil now? Is it okay to genocide all Youkai because they use evil magic?

>and thought being a youkai was the bees-knees
No, he thought it was a way to escape his fate as a human villager.

>We don't know how the village itself feels
We have at least two examples of people openly dissatisfied with Gensokyo, countless examples of people that dislike Youkai or are obsessed with the outside world, and exactly zero examples of people living in the human village that like youkai, feel their lives are in any way improved by the existence youkai, or have shown they prefer Gensokyo to the outside world.

>>45312464
Like I said, many times in fact, Touhou is satirical farce. I used to be kind of annoyed ZUN never went the drama route. But now I realized it wouldn't work because none of the characters are actually likeable enough for the drama to stick. You could have the entire cast get massacred like a JOJO supporting character near the end of a part and nobody would care. I think ZUN realizes that well enough.

>>45312466
>Obsessed with the outside world.
>Secret society
Now where's the clear proof of them?

>Fortune Teller
One doesn't represent many and anon already pointed out he's a dick in particular. Where's the indication that every villager think the same way?

>Not a single example
I didn't even say there's no single example, but a clear proof of most villagers wanting to leave Gensokyo due to suffering should be something like direct statement from the villagers instead of stretching dubious hints. Is there any?
>liking Youkai, or having their lives improved by Youkai.
Anon, why is it always has to be the one or the other? If they don't like or improved by youkai they must hate youkai
Are you forcing this narrative so hard that the idea of neutral indifference is foreign to you?

>>45312436
Dorks, sure.

Lovable, no.

They are old school dorks. Unlikeable, cruel, and evil. Any suffering they have is always wholly deserved.

>>45312626
>Now where's the clear proof of them?
https://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Perfect_Memento_in_Strict_Sense/Outsider
https://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Secret_History_Association

> Where's the indication that every villager think the same way?
The main difference shown between him and other villagers is that he used divination magic to learn the true nature of Gensokyo. There is no reason to assume other humans that do the same wouldn't draw the same example.

> but a clear proof of most villagers wanting to leave Gensokyo due to suffering
Most of them want to leave. It being due to suffering is secondary to that. None of them want to be near youkai, and if they could genocide the entire population of gensokyo they would do so without even a moment of doubt. Because they correctly understand their lives would only improve if that happened.

>Anon, why is it always has to be the one or the other?
Because otherwise their existence is a active detriment and they would, in every regard, be better off in the outside world. It's fucking revealing that in the almost twenty years Touhou has been a thing, there have been zero examples of any human villager showing even the remotest shrewd of love or fondness for youkai. Any interaction we do see go beyond "Neutral indifference" and is closer to "Mild Contempt" or "Outright hatred"

I'm not asking for some kind of heartwarming love story between a lonely village orphan and a kitsune maiden. Literally just an ordinary human villager being vaguely okay with Youkai existing would be a decent start. Instead all we have, after almost twenty years, is contempt and dislike.

>>45312666
*Same conclusion.

>>45312666
>Literally just an ordinary human villager being vaguely okay with Youkai existing would be a decent start
Just getting this out of the way, Kosuzu woudn't count, right?

>>45312624
I'm not saying Reimu was right in killing him, i'm saying he meets your criteria for being worthy of death.
Then he should've became a hermit, the taoists exist and are willing to train people as hermits, by that point in the timeline they were around for a minimum or 2 years.
Hermitness is known about and understood, even youkai hermits exist, although we do't see anyother than Kasen.
I'm not going to argue to the points because we already argued about them earlier and it loops back around to scenario 1 & 2.

>>45312624
You're still taking it seriously if you speak that much.
He just think 2hus being assholes are funny and fit with the japanese lore. What makes you think there's more to it?

>>45312684
Yes, obviously.

She's far from ordinary.

>>45312692
>i'm saying he meets your criteria for being worthy of death.
I mean, after becoming a youkai, yeah.

>we already argued about them earlier and it loops back around to scenario 1 & 2.
What about Scenario 3?

>>45312693
>You're still taking it seriously if you speak that much.
Eh? That post wasn't that long.

I do take it more seriously than ZUN, but I'll freely admit that's unintentional. If I actually met ZUN I doubt I would ask him "So are you actually okay with youkai murdering outsiders and trapping people in a giant open air prison?"

>>45312693
That's the thing, he was the only one who said that there was nothing more to it, while the other anon kept on about "not all youkai are bad", different moral standards" and the like.

>>45312722
>>45312120
>>45312326
Like I said, it loops back around.

>>45312745
What, about, scenario, 3.

>>45312722
>Yes, obviously.
From what I gather from this thread, I could probably claim that I dip people in acid alive for kicks and drink what's left of them to get nutrients, and there would still be people who would defend my good moral character because I sell tasty hotdogs, so no, it's not obvious.

>>45312728
Anon, they are talking about ZUN and he never talk about morals.

>>45312777
>>45312785
Lol, how about scenario 4
Youaki are pure evil
The situation isn't morally complex
They don't deserve genocide

>>45312795
So youkai are paraplegic sadists who can't do anything other than lie in their retirement home and dream of murder? that's sort of canon

>>45312795
I mean, that is a valid stance if you could defend it.

>>45312821
>>45312847
Lol, yeah.
Although I was more making fun of retardanon for creating a new scenario and claiming scenario 1 is that scenario 4.
It's a very youkai-like sentiment funnily enough.

>>45312853
I mean, I do think it's a valid conclusion. There are good Youkai, like two of them, but genocide is still justified.

>>45312853
Everyone here is a retard for participating in this shitshow of a thread. Symposium of Post-Mysticism was a mistake.

Youkai deserve genocide for the crime of not fucking human men. If they were all rapists like in doujins, they would be based and wholesome.

>>45312858
Yeah, but the scenarios are different perspectives that are mutually exclusive, if the youkai are pure evil they have to be genocided, if they aren't they cannot.
So there isn't an argument, especially since people have different interpretations of the facts.
People who believe the youkai are pure evil and need to be genocided will never agree with people who don't.
While 3 & 4 don't make any sense.
also believing genocide is justified requires believing youkai are pure evil. Which strangely enough isn't totally mutually exclusive with believing in a handful of good ones, as humans already hold that belief about other types of humans.

>>45312894
The only truly based post in this thread.
See you guys next time, just remember to post the 4 scenarios first so we have an easier time arguing in a circle for the next couple of days.

>>45312910
>if they aren't they cannot.
Why?

Moral complexity does not mean the awnser has to be black or white.

>especially since people have different interpretations of the facts.
They are mostly just wrong, frankly.

>While 3 & 4 don't make any sense.
How? 3 is simply agreeing that there is complexity, but still understanding that the means justify the end and genocide is a sad necessity. While 4 is simply taking the principle of genocide is bad to it's logical conclusion.

>>45312910
see >>45312931
>They are mostly just wrong, frankly.
Youkai are just evil, and a few outliers don't change that. There is nothing to interpret. Why is this so hard to accept?

Hi. This thread has been uploaded on Korean 2hu forum.
Everyone laughing at you guys because it is only fiction. I think that they will invade here.

>>45312956
what did they think about >>45312068?

>>45312956
Koreans are cucks ruled by a "witch" coven. Their opinion doesn't matter.

>>45312965
They liked it. They just want to be Kasen's slave lol

>>45312956
>Korean 2hu forums
Is there anything more pathetic than that? It's literally just wanting the Japanese to rule over you again.

>>45312931
>They are mostly just wrong, frankly.
Exactly my point, mutually elusive perspective.
You believe the other perspective is invalid and their interpretation to be wholly incorrect.
They believe the same.
So no conclusion is reached.

>>45313010
>mutually elusive perspective.
Being wrong is not a perspective.

Like, the best argument they've made so far is that youkai have friends. That is the only somewhat valid case they have that Youkai are not, like is described multiple times in canon, sociopaths that only think of themselves.

>>45312949
>Why is this so hard to accept?
No one wanna be an extremist that only think in black and white and take offense at everything.

>>45313018
Anon, are you a youkai?
You're anti-social, can't communicate, lack empathy, and won't stop going on about how much you want to kill people.
You might want to talk to doctor Yagokoro, this could be serious!

>>45313024
>You're anti-social, can't communicate, lack empathy,
The fuck?

>and won't stop going on about how much you want to kill people.
Not really.

>>45313022
>Only thinks in black and white
This is not only, this is just accepting that black and white is a thing.

>>45313040
Anon, this isn't even an argument, I'm making fun of you because you're failing to put yourself into the shoes of other Anons.
If you could you'd understand they also believe your spouting shit and nonsense like you believe they are doing.
I'm not even arguing about you being wrong now because that's futile, i'm trying to explain to you why this discussion is futile.

>>45313064
I get the attitude. Youkai look like cute girls. So, suddenly, what would in every other situation be totally obvious, becomes morally complex. Also, like I said, I think a lot of fans tend to confuse fanon, where most of the cast does have redeemable qualities, with canon.

>I'm not even arguing about you being wrong now because that's futile, i'm trying to explain to you why this discussion is futile.
I get that. Like I said, also many times, I don't expect this discussion to accomplish anything. Touhou is, first and foremost, satirical farce. I do it because I do find it fun.

Honestly, after reading most oficial printworks, I must say that I liked being a game-only fan more. I didn't sign up for all this grimshit, I'll stick with fanon, thank you very much

>>45313093
Still failing your empathy check, but that's cool. But don't expect people to take you seriously if you aren't coming for a serious argument and want to have fun, lol.
Anyways, have a happy thanksgiving I have some baking to do.

>>45313118
>Still failing your empathy check,
Where? For not accepting that people are wrong about canon? I'm not going to drop somebody off a cliff based on their views in Touhou canon.

>But don't expect people to take you seriously if you aren't coming for a serious argument and want to have fun,
This is a serious argument, but also one I make for fun since there are literally zero stakes. It's not even like this might somehow affect ZUN.

>>45313040
>this is just accepting that black and white is a thing.
You're not convincing anybody with this, anon. I'll just say no.

>>45313157
Convincing people of what?

>>45313174
That things has to be black or white.

>>45313200
No, I'm trying to convince people that black and white exist and that the morality of Touhou is mostly just black.

At best you could argue it's a slightly more justified black than most. But it's still basically entirly black.

>>45313153
Okay Eiki, Go back to your korean forum this is /jp/ not /kr/
Maybe you should let Bishamonten and Tewi handle this one, okay?

>>45313213
>that the morality of Touhou is mostly just black.
Well I simply disagree.
Why do you want to convince people so much, though? What is your goal by constantly saying youkais are absolute evil?

>>45313265
>Why do you want to convince people so much, though?
I mostly just want people to awnser what teh actual redeemable qualities are. Or how it is that there are zero human villagers that actually seem to like Youkai.

>>45313274
Before anyone answers, no, disaster prevention for the village doesn't count.

>>45313304
Yes. They wouldn't be at risk of being wiped out by a disaster if they weren't trapped. That is a proteciton racket.

Eirin giving medicine also doesn't count because she's not a Youkai and would presumably keep doing it even if Gensokyo was freed.

>>45313304
You really are a special one aren't you?

>>45313318
Look, I know this one seems obvious, but I have to spell this one out because some people really dont get it.

>>45313274
I don't think anyone ask these questions anymore. People have accepted that youkai aren't the nicest people.
Why do you want to know about those though?

>>45313339
>Why do you want to know about those though?
Because I want to know what exactly people view as redeemable about the Touhou cast.

>>45313274
Except the entire village started crying when those house spirits left to work in the Outside, and welcomed them with open arms when they went back.
Youkai is just a broad category to put the fantastical in. Even ZUN didn't differentiate fairies with youkai during EoSD/PCB.

>>45313339
Being "not nice" still means you have some redeeming qualities, unlike "irredeemably evil", and most youkai fall into the second category.

>>45313370
NTA, but by the Anon's standard that falls under this >>45313304 category
It's exploration, the humans are being explored by the house Youkai, let's not forget the evil that is miyoi.

>>45313370
>Except the entire village started crying when those house spirits left to work in the Outside,
Pretty bad example considering their true purpose. Literally the closest we ever got to the human villagers liking Youkai and, woops, it's actually being used to spy on them.

Even then though, it's hardly personal or all that important considering they kicked out the hobgoblins. They are, at best, a tool for them. They would eagerly trade them in for something that does the same but is not a Youkai.

>>45313393
We don't know Miyoi's true nature yet. Either way, people don't know she's a youkai and it's pretty obvious they wouldn't like her if she was a Youkai.

>>45313399
They kicked out the goblins cause they were ugly, uggos have no rights.

>>45313428
That's my point. They don't actually like Youkai or being around them, they just use them. There is no warmth there. They would trade them in for electricity and a vacuum cleaner without a second thought.

>>45313350
If you mean redeemable by moral standpoint, then no?
People are not obliged to only like morally good characters, are they?

>>45313384
Let's just say I disagree on these.

>>45313440
Anon, but the house Youkai fulfilled the same purpose and the villagers liked them, they did honestly have affection for them.
Humans are biased towards pretty people.

>>45313447
>If you mean redeemable by moral standpoint, then no?
I do.

>People are not obliged to only like morally good characters, are they?
Sure. I like Mystia and she's an narcistic serial killer.

>>45313459
>but the house Youkai fulfilled the same purpose and the villagers liked them,
Because they weren't ugly. They didn't actually like them personally. They were better by comparision, which is why Yukari used them as spies in the first place.

Arn't most of theTaoists youkai too?
I really don't know how else to describe what is essentially a pottery zombie, then there is Tojiko too. They seem to be well liked in the village.

>>45313460
>Headcannon
Wow you must really like mystia then.

>>45313474
>headcanon
She is 100% a serial killer and a narcist.

>>45313447
This isn't about liking a character based on their morals, it's about acknowleging what their morals even are.
Athough to be fair, I enjoy canon a lot less because of my moralfaggotry, but that's just me.

>>45313497
Honestly, I don't dislike characters because of my morals. But I would never care for them.

If ZUN tried to make me feel bad for Sakuya, Mystia, or Yukari I wouldn't feel anything even though all of them are my favorites.