/jp/ - Otaku Culture

No.

17 years old.

It was also said that Reimu gets trained by the best --> Yukari.

The second part of the last line down at the very bottom right is the only part I completely agree with.

Yukari is Akyuu's friend...

...well, actually, Akyuu wants to make friends with youkai since all the people she knows will be dead by her next incarnation and Yukari seems to be fine with it. Either way, Akyuu has every reason to make Yukari look as good as possible and have admitted many times to making shit up. Don't believe a word of it.

POWER
LEVEL
THREAD


hidden

this is sooooooo pooshlmer

>>4508227

Are you offended? Your favorite touhou not strong enough?

>>4508238
both of them are my favorites touhous so yeah.

>>4508160
>>4508220
>>4508227
Problem, Suigin?

>>4508258
Problem, f/a/ggot?

Sure is retards acting like elitists ITT

I still like Yuka better than Yukari.

>>4508321
I respect that opinion.

this is irrelevant, because Suika could beat them both if she felt like it

POWERLEVELS
OWERLEVELSP
WERLEVELSPO
ERLEVELSPOW
RLEVELSPOWE
LEVELSPOWER
EVELSPOWERL
VELSPOWERLE
ELSPOWERLEV
LSPOWERLEVE
SPOWERLEVEL

>>4508351
You wasted you time typing all of that? And here I thought I was a loser.

>>4508349
Physically, yes.
Danmaku, no.

>>4508351
Flower level.

>>4508358
My time has no value and cannot be wasted.

>>4508369

No.

>>4508386
Don't you like flowers?

>>4508407

Actually, yes. Yes I do.

>>4508349
In terms of physical power Suika could best Yukari. But her hax is not on par with Yukari's.

Manipulation of boundaries > Manipulation of density > * > Wolverine's powers > * > Manipulation of flowers

In terms of physical power Suika could best Yukari. But her hax is not on par with Yukari's.

Manipulation of boundaries > Manipulation of density > * > Wolverine's powers > Shit > Manipulation of flowers

Weedkiller vs Forest fire vs Yuka. Now that would make for an interesting battle.

Sendo loses against Ippo, right?
Ippo loses against Takamura, right?
that means Takamura>Ippo>Sendo
Now.
Yukari admits being weaker than Shikieiki, right?
Shikieiki loses in a deathmatch against Yuka, right?
That means Yuka>Shikieki>Yukari

Using the Ultimate Magic Yuka could create hundreds of youkai stronger than Yukari or with the same abilities while Yukari only has a cat and a fox.

What is the Ultimate Magic?
The Ultimate Magic (I will refer to it as UM) is the magic the Grimoire of Alice contains (Which also hints being the same magic Shinki uses).Yuka obtained this magic after MS Extra (Kyoh Gyoku Manual). We don't know exactly what it consists on but so far we can tell it consists on:
-High offensive elemental spells (MS Extra)
-Creation of Universes (MS, MS Extra, PCB stage 3)
-Creation of Youkai (MS, MS Extra)

This is all we know about the UM, there could be more.

What would Yuka do in a fight against Yukari?
The possibilities are endless.
Yuka could create a universe in where boundaries don't affect her.
If Yukari calls her cat and fox, Yuka would just create youkai to beat them up, or just take care of them using the UM
If Yukari manipulates the Boundary of Life and Death, Yuka would simply create a connection between Hakugyokurou and the human world (Considering being in Hakugyokurou equals to being dead.)
If Yukari gaps Yuka far far away in space, Yuka would simply teleport back (LLS stage 6).
Manipulate the border between Win and Loss?
All Yuka would have to do is lose too, that way it'd end in a tie.
Youkai can only be killed with magic or divine power therefore Yuka having the strongest magic could simply seal Yukari in a certain universe with tons of Yuka-level youkai torturing her for eternity until she gives up and dies.

Bring me all the boundaries in the world and I will counter them.

Why did you think that Yuka is a strongest youkai?

>>4508419
>Wolverine's powers
Alright, I went too far with that one. I apologize for being mean to the Yuka fans.

What Yukarifags should understand is that even though Yukari IS the strongest youkai, she can't use her moves in a flash. Manipulation of a strong boundary would require time and effort. How many days do you guys think it took Yukari to tear a single hole in Gensokyo's border, a single barrier created by the Hakurei (humans)?
Now imagine her trying to manipulate something like her enemies status of life and death during a fight... she would get destroyed even before she could do half of it. That, and the spellcard rule system, are the reasons she resorts to the usual battle system instead of relying in her HAX.
So as long as she don't have the time to prepare fighting against you, she can be defeated. Just like Reimu, Marisa and Sakuya did in PCB (even though Ran gave Yukari a whole day for her to get ready by telling them "come back tomorrow").

Well if Akyuu said it, it must be true!

>>4508437
>Just like Reimu, Marisa and Sakuya did in PCB
not canon
they fought her and lost, that's why the border of life and death wasn't repaired
no, Yukari didn't "troll" anyone, she is still bounded by the danmaku rules and would have had to obey Reimu if she lost

read tohonifun's Yuka vs Yukuri and come back
it ends in a draw

You guys understimate Yuka so much. She is an incarnation of nature. Do you think killing her body would really kill her soul?
Think something like Mokou.

>>4508450
Yes, it is canon.
Yukari says so in IN. "Three brave humans fought me".

>>4508459
she didn't say "they beat me"

>>4508450
By your logic, Reimu fighting against EVERYONE is not canon then.

>>4508464
i said Reimu winning wasn't canon
not Reimu fighting

>>4508467
So Reimu still oppresses other religions?

>>4508450
The border was repaired.

It can still be flown over.

Canon.

>>4508474
yeah

anyways i'm going to continue reading ippo so don't expect me to respond immediatly, fucking-dense yukarifag-san

>>4508463
See
>>4508464
You way of thinking makes everything in Touhou not canon.

MY TOUHOU >>>>> YOURE TOUHOU

>>4508424
>Yukari admits being weaker than Shikieiki, right?
Not really. If you read the context she was more worried about being judged than anything. Yukari is very sarcastic and her speculation of Shiki's power was just speculation.
>Shikieiki loses in a deathmatch against Yuka, right?
>That means Yuka>Shikieki>Yukari
Not really. There is no losing in Touhou. Aya manages to best Shiki in StB. Marisa manages to beat Suika in the fighting games. Unless someone actually dies, the fight is just another danmaku battle is limited to the spellcard rules. If it was a true deathmatch someone would have died. Has ZUN even said that victory was canon? You do realize in most of the Touhou games only a few endings are canon.

>Using the Ultimate Magic Yuka could create hundreds of youkai stronger than Yukari or with the same abilities while Yukari only has a cat and a fox.
The ultimate magic is just a shitty spellcard. Alice used it in her battle against Reimu and she lost.


>-High offensive elemental spells (MS Extra)
It was a weak spellcard.
>-Creation of Universes (MS, MS Extra, PCB stage 3)
Shinki is a goddess you tool. Her ability to create universes is a testament to her own power. Alice just happens to be a human that she granted some of her power to. Also, the area Alice created is not much unlike Gensokyo the place Yukari had a hand in creating.

>>4508467
At least one ending must be canon. People assume it is the Reimu one simply because of Yukari's obsession with her.
That being said, the only canon ending where Reimu actually loses is Mima's one in SEW because of their dialog. Though she probably defeats her in PoDD (assuming Reimu's ending is the canon one, not Mima's).
Mima > Yukari

>>4508515
All endings are canon.

>>4508424
>Yukari admits being weaker than Shikieiki, right?
Not really. If you read the context she was more worried about being judged than anything. Yukari is very sarcastic and her speculation of Shiki's power was just speculation.
>Shikieiki loses in a deathmatch against Yuka, right?
>That means Yuka>Shikieki>Yukari
Not really. There is no losing in Touhou. Aya manages to best Shiki in StB. Marisa manages to beat Suika in the fighting games. Unless someone actually dies, the fight is just another danmaku battle and is limited to the spellcard rules. If it was a true deathmatch someone would have died. Has ZUN even said that victory was canon? You do realize in most of the Touhou games only a few endings are canon.

>Using the Ultimate Magic Yuka could create hundreds of youkai stronger than Yukari or with the same abilities while Yukari only has a cat and a fox.
The ultimate magic is just a shitty spellcard. Alice used it in her battle against Reimu and she lost.


>-High offensive elemental spells (MS Extra)
It was a weak spellcard.
>-Creation of Universes (MS, MS Extra, PCB stage 3)
Shinki is a goddess you tool. Her ability to create universes is a testament to her own power. Alice just happens to be a human that she granted some of her power to. Also, the area Alice created is not much unlike Gensokyo the place Yukari had a hand in creating.

>>4508538
All endings are canon.

>>4508542
Even the ending of when Yuka loses to Shiki?

Yuka has the original Master Spark oh those kids

>>4508553
Different continuity. Irrelevant.

Marisa is the strongest because she is human and we all know humans have endless possibilities.

Endless gourd of sake > ********

>>4508553
When does this happen, again?

>>4508586

>>4508586

But Reimu is human, too.

>>4508610
But she is lazy.

>>4508613

So she COULD be the best.

>>4508600
ultrahax baby is the strongest

>>4508617
She canonically beat Marisa in SEW. They both grew stronger since then, not sure about who would win the match now.

>>4508629
Concealed the Conclusion is canon!

>>4508424
>>4508538
Also, just because someone has learned the super 1-hit-kill-all attack does not mean they're a stronger youkai. ZUN has stated multiple times that Yukari is the most powerful youkai in the Touhouverse. Cirno on the other hand has been described as a weak youkai (just like all of the other fairy youkais). If in Touhou 13 Cirno was to stumble upon the super 1-hit-kill-all magic she would still be an (inherently) weak youkai that randomly managed to get her hands on a lot of power. It's like saying a 13 year old girl with a gun is stronger than a 25 year old man. Let's just put it this way, if Yukari and Yuka were to both give birth to a child Yukari's child would be the strongest of youkai with powers on par with the gods, and Yuka's child would be a mere flower youkai.

>>4508645
There are so many contradictions in this I won't even bother trying to argue.

>>4508553
>>4508592
>When does this happen, again?

http://touhou.wikia.com/wiki/Phantasmagoria_of_Flower_View:_Sikieiki%27s_Script

>>4508645
>Touhous giving birth
>getting pregnant
Don't even joke about that.

FIELD TOO LONG

>>4508704
You're lucky I'm too lazy to paste all of that. If it was in the form of quotable text I would have debunked it line by line. I will say this however, the yama are considered the judges of life in Japanese mythology. In terms of hierarchy their powers and roles are above that of most gods. A literal translation of a yama/enma would be "god of the dead." So it's understandable if Yukari wouldn't be able to defeat her. But this powerlevel battle is between the youkai of gensokyo, not gods.

Shinki the goddess that created a universe apparently wasn't that powerful seeing how she lost to Reimu. And the so called ultimate magic was used multiple times in MS against Reimu and it had no effect.

>>4508664
When you play as Shiki against Yuka.
What the hell is wrong with Shiki?

>>4508825
>You're lucky I'm too lazy to paste all of that. If it was in the form of quotable text I would have debunked it line by line. I will say this however, the yama are considered the judges of life in Japanese mythology. In terms of hierarchy their powers and roles are above that of most gods. A literal translation of a yama/enma would be "god of the dead." So it's understandable if Yukari wouldn't be able to defeat her. But this powerlevel battle is between the youkai of gensokyo, not gods.
Therefore if a Youkai can beat the Yama that means that Youkai stands above every other Youkai
>Shinki the goddess that created a universe apparently wasn't that powerful seeing how she lost to Reimu. And the so called ultimate magic was used multiple times in MS against Reimu and it had no effect.
She fought against Mima, Reimu, Yuka and Marisa at the same time, holding back to not harm the Makai

>>4508664
Why would Sikieiki encourage her to terrorize humans?
I'm confus.

I WIN!

>>4508424
>-Creation of Universes (MS, MS Extra, PCB stage 3)
Where did you get that from? Shinki is a goddess and she created makai with her goddess hax. Not with some ultimate magic spell. And Alice is the youkai she granted power to. So it's understandable if Alice received some of Shinki's (creation) power.

Also, there is no mentioning of ultimate magic outside of MS. I doubt Alice would have lost to Reimu in PCB if she had some type of ultimate hax. If ultimate magic was the be all end all measurement of Touhou powerlevels then Alice and Shinki would be the strongest behind (a human) Reimu who beat them all. Reimu's victory in MS is canon.

>>4508855
Everyone defeated Shiki in Phantasmagoria of Flower View. And Shiki also defeated everyone. Just because Shiki is on par with Yukari does not mean Yuka is. Stop trying to fuse the two.

>Shikieiki loses in a deathmatch against Yuka, right?
no, they are both alive afterwards.

>>4508922
>Everyone defeated Shiki in Phantasmagoria of Flower View. And Shiki also defeated everyone.
To reiterate, unless you can link me to one of ZUN's articles where he explicitly states the only canon end in PoFV was Yuka's then Yuka is not on par with Shiki.

Alternatively if every ending in PoFV was canon then that would mean Cirno managed to beat Shiki.

http://touhou.wikia.com/wiki/Phantasmagoria_of_Flower_View:_Cirno%27s_Scenario

Shiki might be stronger than Yukari but not Yuka. It's a canon fact.

>>4508922
>Where did you get that from? Shinki is a goddess and she created makai with her goddess hax. Not with some ultimate magic spell. And Alice is the youkai she granted power to. So it's understandable if Alice received some of Shinki's (creation) power.
Then that'd mean Yumeko, Mai, Sara, Louise and Yuki would be stronger than Yukari
>Also, there is no mentioning of ultimate magic outside of MS. I doubt Alice would have lost to Reimu in PCB
Kyoh Gyoku
The fact that ZUN said Alice held back all the time despite losing
Eirin in IN recognizes the Grimoire of Alice and the Ultimate magic
>if she had some type of ultimate hax. If ultimate magic was the be all end all measurement of Touhou powerlevels then Alice and Shinki would be the strongest behind (a human) Reimu who beat them all. Reimu's victory in MS is canon.
Yuka beat Alice in MS because Alice dropped the book in the middle of the battle
Reimu, Marisa, Mima and Yuka fought Shinki at the same time and Shinki held back to not harm the Makai
>Everyone defeated Shiki in Phantasmagoria of Flower View.
Shiki game them a danmaku lecture according to their sin. She held back for that.
>And Shiki also defeated everyone.
In extra she came to Gensokyo to see if the people she lectured had been reflecting on their sins and after seeing nobody gave a damn, she fought them without holding back. Therefore beating all of them
>Just because Shiki is on par with Yukari
She is above
>does not mean Yuka is. Stop trying to fuse the two.
of course she isn't on par with Shiki and Yukari, she is above them.6
>>4508949
I meant Shiki tried to kill her but failed

>>4508905
Because doing your job is a Good Thing™, and youkai's job is attacking humans.

>>4509000
>Yuka beat Alice in MS because Alice dropped the book in the middle of the battle
>Reimu, Marisa, Mima and Yuka fought Shinki at the same time and Shinki held back to not harm the Makai
Yeah....
You should write doujinshi, Suigin.
>I meant Shiki tried to kill her but failed
If Shiki tried to kill someone, she wouldn't be playing danmaku.
>Then that'd mean Yumeko, Mai, Sara, Louise and Yuki would be stronger than Yukari
He said "some", not "all"

>>4509000
Let me get this straight, you just said Shiki was holding back and didn't lose to anybody.

Well... that still doesn't say anything about Yukari vs Yuka. Shiki might be stronger than Yukari but Yuka isn't.

Yukari is second only to Shiki. Nobody 'defeated' Shiki in PoFV. Therefore I conclude Yuka is a weak flower youkai.

>>4509030
>You should write doujinshi, Suigin.
ms endings
>If Shiki tried to kill someone, she wouldn't be playing danmaku.
her fight wasn't danmaku
>Let me get this straight, you just said Shiki was holding back and didn't lose to anybody.
In everyone's route they encountered Shiki at the end.
Shiki held back against everyone EXCEPT Yuka.
Yuka managed to beat her at full power.
Everyone else managed to beat her because she held back according to the strengths of the sins they had.
>Yukari is second only to Shiki. Nobody 'defeated' Shiki in PoFV. Therefore I conclude Yuka is a weak flower youkai.
Yuka did

Ok, powerlevel thread time is up
back to reading Ippo for a while

>>4509056
First post the translated MS endings

>>4509056
>You should write doujinshi, Suigin.
This.
>In everyone's route they encountered Shiki at the end.
>Shiki held back against everyone EXCEPT Yuka.
1). It's still not known if every encounter in PoFV was canon.
2). After Shiki defeated Yuka she told her to kill more humans (implying she wasn't evil enough).

>>4509070
A friend is making a translation patch for MS, give it some time.
>>4509084
>1). It's still not known if every encounter in PoFV was canon.
it is, otherwise the Extra wouldn't have made sense
>2). After Shiki defeated Yuka she told her to kill more humans (implying she wasn't evil enough).
She never defeated Yuka
That dialog posted earlier is what Shiki would have said if you failed the 1cc against her.

on a side note I dropped Ippo to read this instead
http://www.onemanga.com/Lassie/

This picture sums up Suigin's debating style. Despite being dead wrong 100% of the time he manages to dig up the most obscure/redundant information available to him in order to tie the debate by way of repetition.

I on the other hand have been pretty lenient (see: lazy) up until now seeing how the facts of Yukari being the strongest species of 'youkai' were in broad daylight, and spotting them were pretty easy on my part. See:
http://images.4chan.org/jp/src/1267384106166.png

If the tables were turned and Suigin was the one that was making the case for Yukari I would be shit-out-of-luck. Suigin is definitely the more dedicated/endearing debater. But trying to argue that Yuka is stronger than Yukari is the equivalent of a creationist winning a debate against an atheist about the origin of our universe. --> It's dead on arrival. Kudos to you Suigin but historians will cite me as the victor. To elaborate, we'll let the masses decide who won this encounter. Unfortunately for you, the victor was determined the second I posted that picture.

>>4509194
P.S. The delete code for this thread is: suigin

It took the combined power of Reimu and Yukari to put Mokou under.

Mokou confirmed for stronger than BOTH Yukari and Yuka.

Case closed.

>>4509217
She does appear at the end of StB's EX stage. So it's possible ZUN thinks she's the strongest.

Keep in mind that the characters appeared in order of weakest to strongest in StB.

>>4509194
all i see in that post is "I WON I WON I WON BLAH BLAH I WON"
>>4509217
me and my friend beat up a five year old the other day
that obviously means the five year old is stronger than me

>>4509194
See >>4508216

If you think that picture constitutes even the weakest proof of anything, it only demonstrates you know shit about Touhou.

>>4509217
It took the combined power of Reimu and Yukari to put Wriggle under.

Wriggle confirmed for stronger than BOTH Yukari and Yuka.

Case closed.

>>4508664
Oh, look, Shikieiki speech when she wins a player vs AI single match, it is obviously canon.

Watch your back Suigin. You might die one of these days.

>>4509217
Actually, include also Marisa, Alice, Reimilia, Sakuya, Youmu and Yuyuko.

Did anyone say that Accelerator can beat both of them at the same time yet? Because Accelerator can beat both of them at the same time.

>>4509228
No, they appeared in order of power comparing different stages. In the same stage, the order is random.
Also, particularly in the EX stage, they appeared in the order the series were released.

>>4509346
at sucking cock maybe

Guys, get over with it.
Yuka and Yukari are about the same level. Any difference in power they have in power would not be enough to counter an advantage like attacking from behind.
The same could be said about Remilia, Erin, Yuyuko, Kanako, etc.

But Suigin knows aikido, so he can beat both Yukari and Yuka together.
Right, Suigin?

>>4509375
duh

>>4508145
Remove the illegal clone subdomain and all of its files from your server, moot. Immediately stop spamming and cloning www. aｎöＮｔåＬK .com.

>>4509355
>No, they appeared in order of power comparing different stages. In the same stage, the order is random.
Wrong. How do you explain the fact that China appears in scene 5 with Patchouli? Last time I checked China was a stage 3 boss and Patchouli was a stage 4 boss. How do you explain the fact that Chen (a stage 2 boss) appeared in scene 6?
>Also, particularly in the EX stage, they appeared in the order the series were released.
Why did Ran (an extra stage boss) appear in scene 8?

The only logical explanation for their order of appearance in Shoot the Bullet is powerlevels:
http://touhou.wikia.com/wiki/Shoot_the_Bullet:_Characters

>>4509282
Absolutely true.

Wriggle = strongest toohoo

Why don't you faggots just email ZUN and ask him to make a canon powerlevels chart so that everyone can quit bitching.

Pic related, it's who will be at the top of that chart.

Reimu/Marisa > Yukari.

You played PCB, you know it be true.

/thread

>>4509522
Yukari is Reimu's master.

Yukari trains her.

Read the books.

>>4509522
Marisa probably has the most potential of all the characters.

>>4509514
People are afraid to hear the answer.

Toyohime and Yorihime

Even if she's not the strongest, she will still outlive everyone and everything...
It's too bad she still feels pain. If it weren't for that little factor, she'd probably beat the (if there are) stronger opponent by tiring them out.

Written by ZUN:
>"Yukari's actually been helping me train lately. It's really weird."

>"Training Reimu ... ? A youkai? That's odd, a youkai training a youkai hunter ... She has to be plotting something. What are you going to do about it, Reimu?"

http://touhou.wikia.com/wiki/Curiosities_of_Lotus_Asia:_Chapter_25

>>4509583

..you do realise that's just a reference to silent sinner in blue, right?

>>4509429
Did you even read it?
Powerlevels for stages, inside the same stage the order is random.

>Wrong. How do you explain the fact that China appears in scene 5 with Patchouli? Last time I checked China was a stage 3 boss and Patchouli was a stage 4 boss. How do you explain the fact that Chen (a stage 2 boss) appeared in scene 6?
China is not really that weak (although she is surely easy to defeat in EoSD). It's like saying Yuugi or Alice are weak just because she is a stage 3 boss. It's just a fandom thing.
Also, Chen can get as strong as Ran by serving her.

>Why did Ran (an extra stage boss) appear in scene 8?
Because PCB has two extra stages (one called Phantasm, by the way), the latter being the equivalent in difficulty to the other games. That makes Yukarin the true extra stage boss, not Ran.

I FUCKING hate Woli

>>4509583
Because you can't be trained by someone who is at the same level as you but fights in a different manner, right?

>>4509429

StB's ranking cannot be considered true power levels, since it is confirmed Eirin > Kaguya

>>4509583
>"Getting to the point, aside from the primary meaning of borders, Yukari Yakumo's name also has the hidden meaning of 'A strong fortress to keep the gods trapped inside'. Now, if you substitute shrine maidens for the gods, it's obviously Gensokyo. Yukari will never let the shrine maidens escape from Gensokyo."

Yukari is the mastermind of the Touhouverse. Every fiction must have a big boss. Yukari just happens to be said boss of the Touhouverse. Let's review:

1).Yukari had a hand in the creation of Gensokyo.
2). She's one of the oldest youkai in the Touhouverse. (Her existence predates Gensokyo.)
3). She's the one that encouraged the youkai to go to Gensokyo.
4). The youkai depend upon her. Since Gensokyo is made up of borders she could destroy Gensokyo instantly. The "spellcard rules" that every youkai follows means nothing to Yukari seeing how she's the *only youkai that has the ability to travel to and from Gensokyo when the barrier isn't weakened. Gensokyo's border is so powerful that not even the Lunarians could damage it; hence the reason why Kaguya fled to Gensokyo.
5). Yukari once led an army of youkai to invade the moon. (Sounds like a boss to me.)
6). She defeated Ran who was considered one of the strongest youkai.

Yuka is just another youkai that benefited from Yukari's grand scheme. Soon ZUN is going to explain Yukari's motives. Unless she's just using her power to bring people together for sunshine, peace, and roses, she could be planning on 'containing' the shrine maidens. See: http://touhou.wikia.com/wiki/Curiosities_of_Lotus_Asia:_Chapter_25

>>4509689
>StB's ranking cannot be considered true power levels, since it is confirmed Eirin > Kaguya
Actually it can seeing how Eirin refuses to unleash her true power (out of respect for Kaguya).

>>4509829
I don't think ZUN is actually thinking about this at all.

>>4509845
Eirin would beat the Moonbitches senseless, that's what.

>>4509845
If she hasn't unleashed it, then she doesn't know she can actually beat Kaguya.

>>4509569
Yorihime takes too long to use her hax.

>>4508424
So, that would mean Alice and Shinki also have this UM?
If so, why aren't they godtier as well?

>>4510026
they are
except Shinki is not a Youkai and Alice needs that damn book

>>4509829
Did you even read the previous 24 chapters of CoLA? Rinnosuke is constantly inventing silly theories that have absolutely nothing to do with reality. What makes you assume this one is any different?

>>4510011
Eirin is omniscient. She doesn't have to experiment to find out because she already knows

>>4510026
Don't listen to him. Suigin is being a faggot. Alice used the ultimate magic against Reimu and it was just a weak spellcard. Also, Shinki was able to create makai because she's a goddess and it has nothing to do with the "ultimate magic." Alice has some of Skinki's powers because Shinki adopted her.

In Yuka's character description (i.e., the one in PM) there was no mentioning of ultimate magic. And ZUN said he himself did not fully understand what it was.

"Whatever it is, it's certainly moe!~"
--ZUN

>>4510037
I didn't say anything. I just posted that to show how much thought ZUN put into Yukari's name.

>>4510074
proof?
Alice wasn't able to create universes or youkai before getting the book.
Goddesses don't always have the power of creating universes.
Also some fuckwit from #bun is deleting my posts

>>4510037
This discussion is becoming redundant, since the common response is, "[Character X] was just making stuff up! It isn't actually true!"

Apparently, there are no credible sources in Gensokyo, since everyone is a liar. However, I'd place my bets on someone that could manipulate borders rather than someone with a dainty ability like manipulating flowers.

oh also spellcards didn't exist in MS and Alice canonically didn't fight against Reimu using the UM

Yuka is the strongest, deal with it nerd
------------------------8<-------------------------------

Yukari is the only antagonist that was never defeated.

>>4510110
>Yuka is the strongest
>strongest

I think you're confused.

>>4510105
>This discussion is becoming redundant, since the common response is, "[Character X] was just making stuff up! It isn't actually true!"

This is how every Touhou discussion ends up.

This feels like Nasuverse discussions so much it disturbs me.

>>4510099
>Alice wasn't able to create universes or youkai before getting the book.
1. Where does it say Alice created a universe.
2. Where does it say Alice used magic to create her dolls? In PM it clearly says her dolls are just ordinary dolls that she created with her own two hands. And her ability to control them is a testament to her puppetmaster hax.
3. Alice was a human before she met Shinki.Your point is invalid.

>Goddesses don't always have the power of creating universes.
Shinki does however. If you can find one quote from MS that says Shinki relied on the ultimate magic to create makai I'll admit defeat and leave this thread. Oh wait, you cant find said quote?

>>4510110
>oh also spellcards didn't exist in MS
That's the only thing I know how to refer to them as. I guess I could call them danmaku, but that would be redundant.

>and Alice canonically didn't fight against Reimu using the UM
Says who?

>Yuka is the strongest, deal with it nerd
I have a canon quote that says Yukari is the strongest of youkai. Now show me yours? I'm waiting. See:
http://images.4chan.org/jp/src/1267384106166.png

How can any of you actually enjoy talking about this

>>4510218
I know. This shit is worse than TYPE-MOON powerlevel threads.

Reimu beat every single one of her opponents in the games. I have no idea what the fuck are people talking about.

I beat Yukari with Reimu. It didn't happen? What.

>>4510241
I have to disagree. Being an outside observer, I actually find this to be entertaining. Nasuverse powerlevel threads are just boring.

>3. Alice was a human before she met Shinki.Your point is invalid.

says who?

there is no way a human child could end up in Makai and gain as much power as she had at stage 3 in the game

>>4510256
[insert random playable Touhou] beat every single one of her opponents in the games.

>>4510209
>1. Where does it say Alice created a universe.
Mystic Square Extra
The universe is obviously shaped after Alice in Wonderland and it vanished after Alice was beaten
>2. Where does it say Alice used magic to create her dolls? In PM it clearly says her dolls are just ordinary dolls that she created with her own two hands. And her ability to control them is a testament to her puppetmaster hax.
I never mentioned those dolls
>3. Alice was a human before she met Shinki.Your point is invalid.
So? she obtained the book after she met Shinki
plus the origin of Alice is pretty discussed considering ZUN contradicted himself
>Shinki does however. If you can find one quote from MS that says Shinki relied on the ultimate magic to create makai I'll admit defeat and leave this thread. Oh wait, you cant find said quote?
not necessary
The Grimoire of Alice is based on the Grand Grimoire, a book that lends you the power of the Devil (in this case Shinki).
This might not be enough proof but I can counter with that.
>That's the only thing I know how to refer to them as. I guess I could call them danmaku, but that would be redundant.
Spells
It wasn't only one it was many, play Mystic Square extra you idiotic secondary fan
>Says who?
Yuka's Kyoh Gyoku profile says Yuka was the one who obtained the Ultimate Magic
>I have a canon quote that says Yukari is the strongest of youkai. Now show me yours? I'm waiting.
Let me counter that with >>4508216
Also with the Yuka>Shikieiki>Yukari argument since you are obviously going to bring up the "lol she was being sarcastic" comeback.

Being able to create youkai as strong as your opponent plus other things is obviously stronger than being able to control the middle of things

>>4510256
I've always read that, canonically, Yukari was never defeated. Although, I'd like to see a source for that, myself.

>>4510256
>Reimu beat every single one of her opponents in the games
She canonically lost against Suika, Tenshi, Yukari, Marisa (Not in the games) and Shikieiki

>>4510285
She was beaten by Remilia and Reisen (However she was tired at the time, but nevertheless this proves Yukari isn't invincible)

In Touhou 13 ZUN should create EX stage with Yukari that would be impossible to complete.

>>4510348
whoops i forgot about those

>>4510295
>Marisa (Not in the games)

You mean, IN, PoFV and both fighters never happened?

>>4510282
>The universe is obviously shaped after Alice in Wonderland and it vanished after Alice was beaten
Weak...
>I never mentioned those dolls
...sauce.
>So? she obtained the book after she met Shinki
plus the origin of Alice is pretty discussed considering ZUN contradicted himself
Your original point was stupid because: of course Alice didn't have the ability to do anything before she became a youkai.
>not necessary
Actually it is.
>The Grimoire of Alice is based on the Grand Grimoire, a book that lends you the power of the Devil (in this case Shinki).
Now we're going off into lala-land.
>It wasn't only one it was many, play Mystic Square extra you idiotic secondary fan
Did you just go there? Do you want to have a replay battle? You're no match for me. I 1cc'd my first Touhou when you were still watching IOSYS videos.
>Yuka's Kyoh Gyoku profile says Yuka was the one who obtained the Ultimate Magic
But the description of her powers in PM (a book that came out after MS) had no mentioning of your beloved ultimate magic. And the description of Alice's power simply said she has the ability to manipulate dolls. Alice still does mundane task such as laundry, cooking, and etc... That ultimate magic is really incredible... So incredible that ZUN forgot about it when he wrote Perfect Memento.
>Also with the Yuka>Shikieiki>Yukari argument since you are obviously going to bring up the "lol she was being sarcastic" comeback.
Shiki is a god of the dead. In PM it said Yukari was the strongest of youkai, not gods. If Shiki is a true yama she could kill people simply by their karma alone. Yukari has a lot of bad karma. Also, there's no proof that Yuka's ending in PoFV is canon. Nor is there any proof that Shiki was trying to kill Yuka in their encounter.

>>4510481
Continued:

>Being able to create youkai as strong as your opponent plus other things is obviously stronger than being able to control the middle of things
If Alice has the power to create everything why does she do mundane task such as cooking? Once again your overestimating your ultimate fanwank power. This is the difference between you and me. I follow things by the book. Everything you say is speculation. Yukari's hax was detailed. ZUN said the ultimate magic is unknown. And the ONLY time we saw it used was in a few danmaku battles (in which they had no effect on Reimu). The ability to create makai was a testament to Shinki's power as a goddess. Show me one quote where it says she used the ultimate magic to create makai. I'm waiting. Again, this is what I mean by fanwanks. You're relying on nothing but fanfiction.net tier speculation. I'm leaving in frustration.

>>4510481
>Your original point was stupid because: of course Alice didn't have the ability to do anything before she became a youkai.
She could use magical dolls in Mystic Square stage 3
After getting her ass kicked by Reimu's party she obtained the Grimoire of Alice and the UM
Now she just holds back using her dolls (created by her) since she thinks losing at full power again would be pretty humilliating
>Did you just go there? Do you want to have a replay battle? You're no match for me. I 1cc'd my first Touhou when you were still watching IOSYS videos.
I have been playing touhou since 2004, kid I bet you were still playing Final Fantasy VII at the time
>But the description of her powers in PM (a book that came out after MS) had no mentioning of your beloved ultimate magic. And the description of Alice's power simply said she has the ability to manipulate dolls. Alice still does mundane task such as laundry, cooking, and etc... That ultimate magic is really incredible... So incredible that ZUN forgot about it when he wrote Perfect Memento.
PM is written by Akyu
That means Akyu doesn't know about the UM
Eirin recognized the UM as legit in IN stage 5
>Also, there's no proof that Yuka's ending in PoFV is canon.
All endings in PoFV are canon.
Otherwise how did Yuka know of Komachi in Komachi's route?
>Nor is there any proof that Shiki was trying to kill Yuka in their encounter.

>Living is that much of a sin.
>That's right, you've lived a little too long.
>If you continue living on like this, nothing good will come of it.

>If Alice has the power to create everything why does she do mundane task such as cooking?
Because she wants to.
She doesn't want to rely in such an incredible power rendering her useless.
A youkai's lifespan depends on how much dedication they give to their lives a youkai without motivation would die pretty quickly-
>Once again your overestimating your ultimate fanwank power. This is the difference between you and me. I follow things by the book. Everything you say is speculation. Yukari's hax was detailed. ZUN said the ultimate magic is unknown.
>And the ONLY time we saw it used was in a few danmaku battles (in which they had no effect on Reimu).
We only saw it in ONE battle and it was against Yuka, not Reimu you dense secondary faggot.
>The ability to create makai was a testament to Shinki's power as a goddess.
Shizuka Aki can't create universes
Alice isn't a goddess and created her own universe
oh yeah i forgot to greentext this
>weak...
She also did it in PCB stage 3, go download it and play it.
>Show me one quote where it says she used the ultimate magic to create makai. I'm waiting. Again, this is what I mean by fanwanks. You're relying on nothing but fanfiction.net tier speculation. I'm leaving in frustration.
I'm using information based on ZUN's works and stuff that ZUN took from folklore to create his works.
Just because you read Yukari's profile in PM and a few doujins by Chado and Myofu it doesn't mean you know everything about touhou, kid.

Discussing powerlevels with FinalAnswer playing in the background is awesome

I am amused to see this thread reach 150+.

We can safely say that Touhou is on the same level as Typemoon.

Alright, now you're not even trying any more.

>I have been playing touhou since 2004, kid I bet you were still playing Final Fantasy VII at the time
It carries out and is w.
>She doesn't want to rely in such an incredible power rendering her useless.
So apparently she has the power to create universes yet in a conversation with Reimu she admitted Reimu's power was 28% of her own. That ultimate magic is really strong! So strong it'll make you 3 times stronger than a female human. Also, no where does it say Alice created that realm. Not in their conversations at least. Give me a link to it, I cant find it.
>A youkai's lifespan depends on how much dedication they give to their lives a youkai without motivation would die pretty quickly-
Not really.
>We only saw it in ONE battle and it was against Yuka, not Reimu you dense secondary faggot.
Dear moron, the people that had said ultimate magic were bested by Reimu. Alice alone has been defeated 3 times by Reimu.

>So apparently she has the power to create universes yet in a conversation with Reimu she admitted Reimu's power was 28% of her own. That ultimate magic is really strong! So strong it'll make you 3 times stronger than a female human. Also, no where does it say Alice created that realm. Not in their conversations at least. Give me a link to it, I cant find it.
....
are you serious
are you fucking serious?
Reimu= Red White=Two Colored
Alice=Seven Colored
2 is the 28% of 7
That's what she meant with 28%
>Not really.
yes really,
read PMiSS
>Dear moron, the people that had said ultimate magic were bested by Reimu. Alice alone has been defeated 3 times by Reimu.
Who said that?
And Alice was only beaten using her full power once against Yuka and that' was because she dropped the book in the middle of the fight
in MS she fought against Mima, Marisa, Reimu and Yuka at the same time and lost
and in PCB she lost against Reimu/Marisa/Sakuya/whoever but she held back

Also i gotta go in one hour so let's make this quick

>>4510728
>Also i gotta go in one hour so let's make this quick
It's already over you faggot.

>>4510766
I guess I won since the existence of the UM wasn't denied.

>>4510776
It will be next time though. Count on it.

Did you really think you would be able to have a Touhou powerlevel thread without one of these showing up? Silly /jp/...

God Tier
Shikieiki, Kaguya, Eirin, Yukari
Very High Tier
Yuka, Kanako, Suwako, Suika, Yuyuko, Mokou, Tenshi
High Tier
Remilia, Flandre, Sakuya, Utsuho, Ran, Aya, Sanae
Medium High Tier
Reimu, Marisa, Alice, Patchouli, Komachi, Orin, Iku, Reisen, Meiling, Youmu
Medium Tier
Tewi, Keine, Momiji, Yuugi, Chen
Low Tier
Letty, Wriggle, Mystia, Rumia, Koakuma, the Prismrivers, Medicine
Strongest Tier
Cirno, Daiyousei

>>4510825
VIVIT>EX-Yuka>Sikieiki>Eirin=Yorihime=Toyohime=Yukari>Tenshi>Yuugi>Suika>Reimu=
Suwako=Kanako=Sigma>Utsuho=Mima=Gengetu>Iku=Yumemi>EX-Keine>Satori=Koishi=Marisa>Yume
ko>Aya=Mugetu=Patchouli>Orin=Sakuya>Youmu=Alice=Mai>Reisen=Sanae>Tewi=Medicine>Yuk
i=Chiyuri>Elly>Merlin=Nitori>Lunasa=Luize=Rikako>Lyrica>Kana=Keine=Lolice=Sara>Kur
umi>;Momiji=China>Ellen>Mystia=Chen>Meira=Wriggle>Hina>Parsee>Kotohime>Flowe
r Tank>Letty=Yamame>Koakuma>Cirno>Orange>Minoriko>Shizuha>Rumia>Kisume>Lily White>Daiyousei>Starsapphire=Lunachild=Sunnymilk

>>4510838
>Cirno>...>Rumia
you silly nigga

>>4510838
I'm sorry, but I don't think you're convincing anyone that Yuka is that strong. I applaud your dedication, however.

>>4510834
>Suigin !uMakai4iFA
>I don't even need to use my janitor powers to kill this thread

That post didn't last very long. What was that?

>>4510838
>EX-Yuka
lol

>>4510846
I'm not being serious
and I sure hope >>4510825 isn't being serious either
>>4510868
it's not convincing anyone or not, it's just proving she is

>>4510871
http://archive.easymodo.net/cgi-board.pl/jp?task=search&ghost=yes&search_text=gengetu
I copied the list from here ;_;

>>4510884
Just to let you know you're currently arguing with someone else. I have bigger fish to fry.