/jp/ - Otaku Culture

>>44898897
The reality that ZUN doesn't cares or remembers every little detail from his own parade of characters, so you get retarded blunders like ZUN forgetting the color of Yukari and Marisa's eyes or Minoriko having 2 left feet.

>>44898897
Good. Touhou girls should be nerfed more to make powerscaling fags cope and seethe

>>44898897
How do you expect a drunkard to recall every single little detail from past years ago?

>>44898916
Anon, Minoriko's first appearance is her having two of the same feet. It's the mangas that got the detail wrong later.

sakuya was always retarded

>>44899053
Marisa has two right feet in the newest manga
>>44899084
How can someone know about thorium and decay in elements, but not fucking oxygen??

>>44899100
I dunno, how can cirno know about england's mad cow disease and their attempt to cure prions by freezing their beef, but be as generally fucking retarded as she is otherwise?
you don't think about it

>>44899100
>How can someone know about thorium and decay in elements, but not fucking oxygen??
She learns by opening a text book to a random page and reading one or two sections.

>>44899053
I don't buy ZUN's explanation, he fucked up and tried to play it cool but it's retarded.

>>44899100
Probably heard it from Patche. Consider this
>Thorium series have 11 products in it
While it's still a significant number, Sakuya makes it sound more impressive than it actually is. It basically boils down to "I've killed 11+x number of people".
She literally said that just to sound cool and educated.

>>44899100
Maybe the artist has a hard time drawing the pinkie toe?

>>44898970
Powerscaling isn't an issue since they already cap at low multiversal lmao

>>44898897
I really wonder why Sakuya out of all characters has this ignoring air moments in a setting where belief shapes reality...
Funny that only other place I remember anything similar being acknowledged is one where most battles go "Lol no I overpowa U" and specific skills tend to be useless except for regeneration and asspulls to instantly increase the protags power way more than what years of training do.
you also move air while moving tho. And if you stop time instantly inertia would fuck you up, there's also gravity and light and so on...
Does anyone know any game/manga/story where time stoping/manipulation is explored a bit more than usual?
I've made my headcanons about it, although criticising how "unrealistic" something as unrealistic as time stop is a bit stupid.
Probably in physics anything moving at apparently infinite speed just means it gets disintegrated or something.

>>44899256
It could be a make it look like a lot effect but technically not a lie.
Some friend once stopped some goofball from maybe getting stuck in a vending machine by saying something like
>More people die by getting stuck in vending machines than by sharks
Which made the guy to stop fooling around.
I'm not sure if that fact is true, since I think you usually would get helped by someone, maybe I'm misremembering and it wasn't die but get stuck, it was a long time ago.
Regardless of that it could also be Sakuya being goofy, it's just that other options also exist.

>>44899821
I've heard the vending machine vs sharks "fun fact" several time before, but I've never heard it specified with the victim getting stuck.
Most deaths are from shaking the machine too hard and getting crushed when it falls over.

>>44898897
Wasn't the first line from EoSD?

That game literally had Remilia quote JoJo and seemingly implied Reimu murdered Sakuya. You shouldn't take it too seriously.

>>44898970
Hecatia, Junko and Yukari solo the entire DBZverse, cope and seethe.

>>44902971
All of those would job to Big Boss or even just a random Vanguard Space marine.

>>44899109
Fairies are naturally curious and have a lot of knowledge, but it's all fragmented and they don't really understand it, so they end up mentioning random factoids like a child overhearing something someone else said.

>>44903050
>Cirno got her knowledge of English Beef from a outsider that got murdered by either her or a youkai.
Dark...

>>44903050
I like the implication that Marisa is a fairy here

>>44903050
Look at these dorks. Would hug each one of them tenderly from left to right.

>>44903446
Me too, but i would stop at middle right.

>>44903928
You must hug every last one of the fairies, anon.

>>44903059
She's just tall for a fairy, you really think you can fly on a broomstick?

>>44904016
I would make them all my wives

>>44905314
Marisa doesn't fly. She wears baggy witch clothes because when the wind catches them they work like a sail and she's light enough to be picked up and carried away.

>>44904016
Marisa is such a jobber that she got overpowered and "pranked" by fairies!

>>44898897
Sakuya is an airhead. The type of airhead that knows a bunch of useless knowledge, but still an airhead.

>>44906146
excuse me, Sakuya only knows ONE useless Knowledge.

>>44898897
>>44899084
That hardworking maid is good for nothing except hard work, and hard sex!

>>44898897
dude, she just half heard some trivia and tried to sound cool without having any idea of what it means.
what a dork.

>>44906181
Maybe Patchouli is who Sakuya learned her useless knowledge from.

>>44898970
He doesn't need to. Fans will nerf them for him.

>>44899100
Cute feet desu

>>44906181
she just like me for real

>>44907260
I wonder if Zun specifically asks for there to be feet in his manga. It’s really common for that fanservice.

>>44900634
Okay, that makes way more sense.
>>44912149
Might also be the artists themselves doing some "stealth fanservice", but dunno I would expect a footfag to get right-left foot consistent or something.

>>44904016
I don't think I could stop at hugging them...

>>44898897
I really don't understand why people keep pointing to this as if it makes Sakuya dumb when oxygen as understood to be something "breathed" is a concept that's about 200 years old and she's been serving her 500 year old vampire mistress for supposedly unnaturally long amounts of time. Gensokyo's also been closed off for about 100 years, and who even knows how common the idea of "oxygen is something you breathe" was prior to the 1900s?

>>44898897
>>44924361
also it's extremely simple to explain the first one

Banter that sounds good on paper. Mentioning something doesn't mean you understand it

>>44924364
With Okuu around, I'd say nuclear elements of chemistry are probably more known across Gensokyo than the more "mundane" sides of chemistry.

>>44924361
They literally have outsiders coming in, and even staying, though. Oxygen is one of those concepts, like football or echoes, that I could easily see becoming common place.

>>44924417
Imagine a person passes the barrier of reality and then tells you there are small particles you can't actually see but they surround eveything and they're the reason you're able to think. They're called zypis and it's common knowledge where he's from. When you ask him to explain or show you how zypis exist he can't he just tells you it's obvious, there are books about it. He can perform no experiments readily to prove to you the existence of zypis

>>44924382
not even really, since Sanae tried explaining it and I'm not sure anyone got it.

>>44924551
I mean, I hate to degrade them too much but the Human villagers would most likely buy that out of principle. You could probably tell them any nonsense and they would buy it.

Otherwise, try and get your hands on a science magazine.

>>44924558
Wasn't that mostly just Reimu?

>>44924551
I'm with >>44924576 hell, they might say it sounds logical, they are in a literal fantasy world after all.

>>44924585
I'd have to reread but I don't recall if Marisa seemed knowledgeable/keen

>>44924590
>>44924576
You can be with each other but this is actually a canonically usual thing in Gensokyo, even with books backing things up. Outsiders tend to pass through the barrier and bring with them wonderful ideas that they are completely unable to explain so few actually take hold. This is what leads to Rinnosuke thinking a computer tablet is basically just a paperweight or mirror.

My point is that most people probably don't even give a shit. Even if the knowledge of "oxygen" proliferated, a bunch of farmers and bamboo cultivators are probably more interested in praying to the literally tangible and effective gods than working science into their routines

>>44924623
>Outsiders tend to pass through the barrier and bring with them wonderful ideas that they are completely unable to explain so few actually take hold.
I would say that has more to do with practicality. Football is apparently really popular in the human village. But that's not hard to understand since all you really need is a ball and a field. You can't really do the same with Oxygen.

>My point is that most people probably don't even give a shit
Outsiders that stay in Gensokyo basically become overnight celebrities according to both PMISS and Symposium BECAUSE people stuck in fantasy Gaza strip do care. Even if they can't use it most of the time, they do want to understand it. It's why they literally genocided an entire group of Youkai by accident.

>>44924623
>what leads to Rinnosuke thinking a computer tablet is basically just a paperweight or mirror.
I really need to reread CoLA chapters, but how come Rinnosuke understand what a computer is and what it can do (even if he mistakes it to be magical in nature) yet doesn't understand what a tablet is despite the fact they're the same item with the same functions, they're just shaped differently.

>>44924657
As somebody who works in IT: I totally believe that.

Man, I kind of want to write a romance story between Rinnosuke and the only straight non transexual girl that ever worked as a IT specialist. A person whose existence is so rare and impossible to believe she fell into Gensokyo.

>>44924657
Rinnosuke only knows name/purpose. He similarly doesn't understand that a gameboy isn't a device that creates and manipulates actual worlds.
His info seems to also be 1) inconsistent and 2) heavily influenced by his bias and (misbegotten) belief that he is an expert on the ouside world.

>>44924656
they give a shit about actual useful stuff, but Akyuu's opinion of them seems unsurprisingly low given once they're interrogated the average normie is damn near useless for info

I think it's better to think of outsiders who stay as travelers with interesting stories. The outside world is always changing and is very different from Gensokyo after all.

>>44898970
Why does it matter when border guards neg diff your entire spicverse

>>44924737
Akyuu's opinion of them is pretty low, ironically because she assumes they are okay with being eaten by Youkai, but their info is still wanted.

Though I agree a lot of it is probably just travelers. Like people that want to know what is going on in the outside world.

>>44924835
>assumes
Have you not seen Rumia threads?

>>44925985
I'm talking about actual outsiders who don't know about gensokyo.

Every /jp/ would 100% willingly walk into the mouth of a yokai.

>>44924835
>their info is still wanted
She says they have unique knowledge they're valued for, but then adds this at the end

It sounds like they have potential to help with what they know but they tend to not know much (understandable, as AFAIK there are legitimately no technological tools that we use daily which can be produced entirely by yourself. You'll need machines and materials that you just can't get/make all on your own. Even if you genuinely knew all the steps to make something explaining and execution is something else especially with no manuals or research or anything)

Is there any knowledge that would be actually useful for the village?
I am not sure if even medicine could be useful when you have healers using magic and potions.
Farming knowledge might be useless too when you can just pray for the goddess and get a perfect crop protected from pests.
Maybe chemistry could be useful if you get into magic so you can combine both of them and do alchemy?

>>44927137
Being able to get a working electricity network going would be the big one. Practical physics in general would be pretty big if you could somehow get your hands on the tools to put it to use.

Now I'm just thinking about Dr Stone but it takes place in teh human village.

>>44927076
Pretty much. Still, I do find it funny how they are still very liked despite most of their knowledge most likely being rather useless. Goes and shows how much the human villagers would rather be literally anywhere else.

>>44929863
>Goes and shows how much the human villagers would rather be literally anywhere else.
this is untrue though

most of them are legit happy with what they have, basically because they're just villagers. They're rural people living small lives satisfactorily. They have food, medicine, and even safety from natural disasters. They don't need any more. It's to the point that the rare times there is sentiment to get leadership, or to rebel, it is either heavily derided or relentlessly mocked.

>>44933543
>most of them are legit happy with what they have,
There is nothing to imply that and, again, their massive interest in the outside world shows they don't want to be in Gensokyo. That's not even getting into people like Fortune teller or the history society. Even the two old geezers in the new manga have a air of sadness and misery about them. What with them basically having wasted their life in Gensokyo and drinking away their sorrow.

Everything seems to imply the Human Village is a miserable place to live. Which, considering it's basically a slightly more peaceful version of the Gaza strip isn't hard to understand.

>It's to the point that the rare times there is sentiment to get leadership, or to rebel, it is either heavily derided or relentlessly mocked.
By the people that are oppressing them. The actual villagers don't seem overly interested in armed conflict but they do most certainly want to leave.

>>44933594
>There is nothing to imply that
Read Bohemian Archive in Japanese Red/pay attention to the fact that there is never any discontent with Gensokyo. You are trying to say that because there is no evidence of "satisfaction" (???) that they must be dissatisfied although there DEFINITELY is little evidence of dissatisfaction.
?their massive interest in the outside world shows they don't want to be in Gensokyo
Frankly that's a retarded take. If you're interested in hearing about something you must want to go there?
>Even the two old geezers in the new manga have a air of sadness and misery about them. What with them basically having wasted their life in Gensokyo and drinking away their sorrow.
my god, the amount of ass-pulling
>Everything seems to imply the Human Village is a miserable place to live.
Except the "nothing really", part.
>Gaza strip
You are an actual fucking headcase, mate.
>By the people that are oppressing them.
Marisa and Keine aren't oppressors. Arguably Kanako and others are, but that is a really iffy statement.

>>44933676
>Read Bohemian Archive in Japanese Red
1: Very early lore. 2: That literally IS a example of a fairly large group of outsiders wanting to leave Gensokyo.

>attention to the fact that there is never any discontent with Gensokyo.
If you mean "By humans" you do realize they are broken down and leaderless, right?

>You are trying to say that because there is no evidence of "satisfaction" (???) that they must be dissatisfied although there DEFINITELY is little evidence of dissatisfaction.
No, what I am saying is that since there is zero evidence of satisfaction, some dissatisfaction, and a consistent interest in the outside world it's obviously they want to leave.

>If you're interested in hearing about something you must want to go there?
You don't copy every aspect of a culture you can get your hands on if you have zero interest.

>my god, the amount of ass-pulling
Not a argument. Drinking away your sorrows every night is not a example of a happy well maintained person.

>Except the "nothing really", part.
See above.

>You are an actual fucking headcase, mate.
Explain to me what the practical difference is between the Gaza and the Human Village other than the fact that the human village have zero electricity. Both are open air prisons where people live in bad squalid conditions and any attempt at rebellion is met with death.

>Marisa and Keine aren't oppressors
Marisa doesn't dismiss the idea. As for Keine, depending on how you want to read the article in bohemian it's either just early instalment weirdness or her totally being a oppressor.

>>44933719
>Not an argument
Yeah nah man you making things up and ignoring things and pushing your biases and bringing up the Israeli/Palestinian conflict is an argument for dismissal of anything your dumb fucking ass says. Peace.

>>44933735
>you making things up
Where?

Literally the closest I ever got was saying that most of the villagers shown in the spin off manga seemed pretty miserable. Which you have failed to make a valid counterpoint against.

>and pushing your biases
Not keeping people trapped against their will? Modern technology being good? If you disagree with either, go lock yourself in a cage right now.

> and bringing up the Israeli/Palestinian
It's to show you what living in the human village is actually like. If you want another example though: North Korea.

Local man ignores how often people are smiling and happy in the human village and the fact that there's been no successful rebellion nor strong rebellion and that the populace is ignorant and simple, safe and protected, and plainly satisfied in order to compare Touhou to Jews bombing civilians in Palestine.

He also compares bountiful harvests, amenities, and freedom of expression + freedom to come and go to North Korea.

>>44933769
Don't you know Anon! Gensokyou is in a constant state of hellish war were hundreds of children die daily due to the predation fo Youkai hags!
Not to mention Yukari's iron grip on governance, WMDs, and its constant state of famine.

>>44933795
It is truly a heinous and hellish place for humans

>>44933769
>Local man ignores how often people are smiling and happy in the human village
They are also shown not smiling plenty of times. They mostly just come across as people, living their lives.

> and the fact that there's been no successful rebellion nor strong rebellion
Because they are too beaten down.

>to Jews bombing civilians in Palestine.
Yes. Youkai murdering human villagers is the exact same. At best you could argue it happens less.

>>44933790
>bountiful harvests
Headcanon.

>amenitie
Worse than the Gaza and North Korea.

> freedom of expression
How?

>freedom to come and go
They literally risk their life every time they leave the human village and are trapped in Gensokyo. It is a giant open air prison, just like North Korea.

>>44933795
>Gensokyou is in a constant state of hellish war were hundreds of children die daily due to the predation fo Youkai hags!
Mostly outsiders, but yes.

>>44933806
>>44933818
I could show you photos of people in North Korea or Gaza that are smiling as well. They would still literally be anywhere else, much like the human villagers would be.

Meanwhile, want me to post the bit where Marisa mentions she finds tons of corpse outside the village? Or the person that was brutally executed without trial? Or the human villagers being terrified that one day they are all going to be massacred by youkai? Or the doomsday guy that needed anti depressants?

>>44933824
Human village was a much happier place during PMISS lore.

>i cannot refute him so i'll cherrypick images and repeat his arguments in a mocking tone
you wouldn't last a day in gensokyo

>>44933837
nope

>>44933841
It's legitimately not cherrypicking. It's actually more difficult to find portrayals of humans in distress in the human village than it is to find them happy.

The Human Village is protected land. Anything goes outside the human village, but humans are still reported to go out frequently still.

>>44933841
I mean, very few outsiders would.

>>44933842
>Still no argument

>>44933861
Is this image supposed to confirm that the human village is horrible by describing it as arcadian? Do you know what that means?

Rare discontent in the human village

Sparked my a flame of madness from a renegade denizen of hell
The fairy is chastised for this afterward because you aren't allowed to fuck with humans in the human village

>>44933897

>>44933837
Don't people irl and presumably in the outside world of the Touhou setting use antidepresents, and Marisa's comment was probably intended to be a joke on her part to defuse a situation.
Also that villager guy is just one person, whose incorrect by the way, and Eirin implies she started selling anti-depressants due to demand from the Youkai who are her primary customers on that front, with Alice being used as an example/

>>44933913
you shouldn't be surprised that a person who focuses on war in the middle east takes small samples and inflates their importance to spin a narrative

>>44933857
>It's actually more difficult to find portrayals of humans in distress in the human village than it is to find them happy.
Are you retarded? Most actual portrayals we see that actually talk about their mental state show them unhappy. Hell, you literally just posted one.

Just off the top of my head:
>The people that want to wipe out Youkai in Bohemian
>Fortune Teller.
>The random kid that stumbled across a corpse.
>The doomsday guy that has to take anti depressants.
>The people angry at Orin.
>The people harassed by the snake youkai.
>The Salt Merchant

>>44933872
Arcadian DECLINE. It's taking the idea of arcadia and showing that it would actually be a miserable empty life. Which is what it's been consistently shown as being. Their lives are useless, devoid of meaning, and miserable. In living standards, they are on par with the Gaza strip. In political freedom, they have less than North Korea. In overall value, their lives are more empty and shallow than even neets.

>>44933929
not an argument

>>44933929
It says arcadian sort of decline and stagnant, you fucking imbecile. This [LITERAL SHITSTIRRING ACTUAL MONSTER] is complaining that the human village is peaceful.

>>44933913
>and Marisa's comment was probably intended to be a joke on her part to defuse a situation.
The joke is more how fucked up Gensokyo actually is that she thinks that is a acceptable answer.

>Don't people irl and presumably in the outside world of the Touhou setting use antidepresents,
Yes. The fact their lives are bad enough that they need them throws into question the whole simple rural life idea. Which makes sense since that was nonsense anyway.

>Also that villager guy is just one person
Also the fortune teller, and the salt merchant, and the people that wanted to exterminate all youkai, and the old dude terrified that youkai are going to kill them all.

A bunch of extras looking happy at a festival is hardly the same thing.

>>44933954
A bunch of people happy is less important than a few people unhappy, got it.

>>44933931
Which part?

>>44933953
Death is peaceful. A world without humans is peaceful. Peaceful does not equal good. Even within the context, the point is that it's a dead society filled with people that are mostly dead inside trying to keep going.

>>44933959
Temporary happiness associated with something like a festival is less important than people being so unable to deal with the going on of daily life that they need antidepressants, mass alcohol consumption, or suicide.

>>44933929
Anon, did you read the story where the kid found the corpse, the entire thing is about Tanuki helping humans without their knowing. Than that later being used as pro-tanuki propaganda so the human village and Tanuki have better relations.
Also yes compared to the times we see the villagers happy, the times we see the examples you pointed out are small. For one thing both the Snake Youkai and the Youkai possessing the Salt Merchant were stopped. People made offering and the snakes ate them so they could survive and when it was made clear to Reimu she couldn't' save the salt merchant she was forced to kill him.

>>44933975
nope

>>44933977
The snake youkai is also a great example of human solidarity as everyone in the market tried to catch him (all humans (even little Kosuzu helped))

>>44933975
Wait are you the guy that keeps posting the memes about how all the villagers are suicidal and don't value their lives?
Have we just been responding to bait using from some guy using topical reference to catch us?

>>44933929
What’s with your obsession with the Gaza Strip

>>44933977
>did you read the story where the kid found the corpse
Yes. The point is more what it says about the overall state of Gensokyo. "You are likely to stumble across a corpse if you leave the village" doesn't scream utopia to me. It's more 1984.

>Than that later being used as pro-tanuki propaganda so the human village and Tanuki have better relations.
Wonderful, now the Tanuki can exploit the villagers even more.

> the times we see the examples you pointed out are small.
No, not at all. Nor do we ever actually see any human villager given any degree of detail or characterization being happy or satisfied. You are literally comparing background people at a party to actual characters.

>For one thing both the Snake Youkai and the Youkai possessing the Salt Merchant were stopped.
The fact that those kind of things are a problem at all shows yet another reason why living in Gensokyo is miserable.

>>44934023
It's the single best example of what life in the human village would actually be like. Both are open air prisons. Both are overseen by people that kill anybody that tries to leave or improve their life. Both people living in it are prone to random acts of violence. Both are denied many basic necessities most of even the third world takes for granted.

>>44933790
>freedom of expression
>Japan
Lol. Lmao even.

>>44934146
Article 21 https://japan.kantei.go.jp/constitution_and_government_of_japan/constitution_e.html
In Gensokyo's case there are no true governing bodies so you can basically do anything (but turn into a youkai as a human villager, or harm a human in the human village)

Referring to freedoms, Japan has somewhat heavy "obscenity"-based regulations (arguably paradoxically)

>>44934209
>In Gensokyo's case there are no true governing bodies so you can basically do anything
You are liable to get killed if you try to leave the human village. There are literally spies anywhere waiting for a excuse to report you. Even Aya flat out admits she's looking for trouble.

There is no freedom of expression. No more so than, again, a totalitarian dictatorship.

>>44934289
>You are liable to get killed if you try to leave the human village
yeah Marisa was murdered, that is true

also all those people who leave the village temporarily always get assassinated

>There is no freedom of expression
but there is. You're even allowed to say "down with youkai", people just won't really care about that opinion. You're acting like it isn't open and public record because there are spies in the village who, according to Aya, are influencing the village (not trying to rat people out like this bullshit you're making up. Go on and post the non-existent proof of that inane claim, though)

>>44934344
>yeah Marisa was murdered, that is true
Liable. Marisa very well could have been murdered.

>also all those people who leave the village temporarily always get assassinated
Again, liable.

>You're even allowed to say "down with youkai", people just won't really care about that opinion.
No, you aren't. Literally the moment you try to form any kind of leadership you are going to end up vanishing without a trace.

>(not trying to rat people out like this bullshit you're making up. Go on and post the non-existent proof of that inane claim, though
Yukari flat out mentions that she uses Zashiki-warashi as spies to keep track on what the human villagers are doing. With the implication being all but unsaid that if they do anything the sages don't like, they are removed. Unless you want to assume Yukari just politely tells them to stop.

>>44934423
>Yukari flat out mentions that she uses Zashiki-warashi as spies to keep track on what the human villagers are doing. With the implication being all but unsaid that if they do anything the sages don't like, they are removed. Unless you want to assume Yukari just politely tells them to sto
No she doesn't, but you can again post the non-existent proof of this.

Yukari uses the zashiki warashi to spy on the outside world. The introduction of zashiki warashi in touhou was explaining how one had vanished. It turned out Yukari is using them to find viable outsiders to spirit away as food. The zashiki warashi are helpful spirits for the villagers. This is emphasized as Yukari attempts to replace them with hobgoblins: also helpful spirits.
You lie fast.

>>44934423
>>yeah Marisa was murdered, that is true
>Liable. Marisa very well could have been murdered.
>
>>also all those people who leave the village temporarily always get assassinated
>Again, liable.

Nothing happened so it's liable that something youkai aren't allowed to directly do (kill human villagers) is totally liable. This is based on what I personally think, no actual examples or evidence, statements or facts. Gaza Strip.

>>44934423
>No, you aren't. Literally the moment you try to form any kind of leadership you are going to end up vanishing without a trace.
Freedom of expression != freedom of assembly/freedom of action

Talking about overthrowing youkai or making a leader is public record. You are free to express those ideas.

>>44934437
So Yukari is a dirty genocider of humans for their nutrients. DOWN WITH YOUKAI SCUM

It's worth noting that youkai genuinely oppressing humans to the point that the majority were upset and rebellious would be supremely counter-productive. It would genuinely lead to youkai AND gods all fucking dying/ceasing to exist. The humans must be kept happy, generally, to avoid this. The human village is the whole reason Gensokyo exists, hence it is so fiercely protected.

>>44934437
Except she outright said she uses them to spy on the village, going far to explain that she won't allow them to congregate and plan bad things. The village uniting under a leader is the youkai's worst nightmare.
It's why Kasen wanted to beat the shit out of the goblins, knowing they were replacement spies.

>>44934437
>No she doesn't, but you can again post the non-existent proof of this.
Pic example.

Read the actual manga.

>>44934446
>aren't allowed to directly do (kill human villagers)
Never actually established.

>>44934448
>Freedom of expression != freedom of assembly/freedom of action
You do realize what freedom of expression is, right? If you try to make a art piece or book about how humans are unionize you are going to get killed.

>>44934506
>It's worth noting that youkai genuinely oppressing humans to the point that the majority were upset and rebellious would be supremely counter-productive.
Correct. So they keep them in a giant open air prison and only kill them if they act out of hand.

Again, just like the Gaza strip.

>>44934565
>The village uniting under a leader is the youkai's worst nightmare.
Because, again to repeat myself, it would basically result in a situation we are seeing now in Isreal.

The human villagers can't rebel because they have no organization. Anybody trying to organize would be killed. That is not freedom of expression.

>>44898897
Sakuya is only occasionally airheaded due to overusing her abilities but she's not dumb, she knows what "breathable air" is.

>>44934653
This is a Grimsokyo thread sir, not a Sakuya intelligence thread.
please leave.

>>44934018
Is it really bait if it's true? No, really, I've seen him in 5 threads already, and no one could refute him. I don't agree with him on everything, but it's fun to watch people try to interact with him.

>>44934985
I mean he has some good points but I think he spergs too much about Youkai needing to be genocided and spouts a lot of headcannon about what's inside the villagers heads.
Like he says a lot of factual stuff but posts obvious bait and talks about geopolitics and assumes the mindset of the villages to be borderline suicidal 24/7 which is his headcannon.
Which is what makes great bait, he has good points, intermixed with memes and headcannon that pisses people off so even if somebody only slightly disagrees with him and thinks Gensokyo isn't 100% terrible they get dragged into a protracted argument which shits up unrelated threads.

>>44935027
Damn, you're right, I forgot this was "Sakuya is dumb" thread.
>assumes the mindset of the villages to be borderline suicidal 24/7 which is his headcannon
That's one thing I dissagree with him, then there would be corpses inside the Village due to extreme discontent.
Also, his geopolitical assessment is hit-or-miss - the Gaza comparison is apt, but he never mentioned it before it became The Current Thing™, and comparisons to North Korea and africans just screams of lack of knowledge and imagination.

>>44935126
>Damn, you're right, I forgot this was "Sakuya is dumb" thread.
True, I think her mismatched knowledge, stupidity, and wierdness alongside her elegant maid and psycho killer traits make her very cute and endearing, definitely up there with Ran and Tewi as my favorite 2hu's.

>>44935027
>I think he spergs too much about Youkai needing to be genocided and spouts a lot of headcannon about what's inside the villagers heads.
I think Youkai genocide would be acceptable. But I also don't expect it to ever happen. As for the human villagers themselves, it's hard to say what goes on in their head but I do think assuming that they are all happy is just as dumb of an headcanon.

>>44935126
>That's one thing I dissagree with him, then there would be corpses inside the Village due to extreme discontent.
The best case I can make is that some of their behavior is VERY questionable. Like, seemingly borderline suicidal. There's also Fortune Teller actually killing himself, though obviously he's a special case.

>the Gaza comparison is apt, but he never mentioned it before it became The Current Thing™,
I'll freely admit I have been reading a lot about the gaza strip now that it's actually in the News. The more I read about it and the more I thought about it, the more I couldn't help but feel it's actually a way, WAY more apt comparison than North Korea or Somalia, which I will freely admit are trite, for what living in the human village must actually be like.

>>44935165
She's one of my favorites as well.

>>44898897
Sakuya's cranium is full of vampire cunny

>>44902971
Doesn't Yukari get her ass beat every time she tries something?

>>44899084
>the broken teacup
If you actually fell for that ruse cruise, I got some bad news for you.

>>44935675
Sakuya is NOT a pedophile.

>>44935997
of course not, after all her masters are near 500 years old :)

>>44934588
That says "if people do bad things" and your dumb fucking shithead ass assumes "that means if they rebel, right?"

As if you've never heard of organized crime.

>>44934588
>Never actually established.
:/

I won't even tell you where this fundamental shit is. You'll tell me it's old lore and dismiss it.

>>44937920
A note before any dumb rebuttals to this
1( Rebellious groups freely organize in the human village as per BAiJR. To our knowledge nobody was killed.

2) Organized crime doesn't exist in the human village to our knowledge. In fact, crime in general seems so unthinkable that the prospect of murder is almost fiction to them. Akyuu literally writes murder mysterioes based on that concept. Rinnosuke also explains the large amount of trust based in Gensokyo's economy.

3) We know that Yukari tends to target actual criminals for spiriting away.

If 1) is the case (there ARE, EXISTING rebellious forces) and they have not been killed to our knowledge, but 3) is true and 2) is true and zashiki warashi are explicitly used to weed out people thinking of doing "bad things" and to find outsider candidates worthy of being food (as stated in PMiSS: often criminals), you only have badbrain to blame if you construe that as "Yukari stops all rebellions". Because, again, point 1) exists. She does not stop them, nobody does. They are only mocked.

The closest thing to "killings" that has happened RE rebellion is people outside of the human village died. It doesn't even say they were killed, and notes youkai are not taking any aggressive stance to the organization. How could people die without youkai actively killing them, given the spell card rules? Easy: youkai are often dangerous just by existing. Letty is a great example, for instance.
But whatever, this is my last piece. I'm hoping at the very least this rambling has been illuminating for people who are not retarded.

>>44937933
ZUN himelf told that new material supercedes the old. Why is this not fine with Windows canon when something is contradicted?

>>44936011
Flan nooo!

>>44927137
>Farming knowledge might be useless too when you can just pray for the goddess and get a perfect crop protected from pests.
I see this brought up from time to time, but the only harvest goddess we see is explicitly pretty limited in her ability, and is implied to do everything by hand, not much different from how humans do it.
Modern outside world farming techniques and technology is guaranteed to be far more effective than how Gensokyo does it.

>>44938010
1: People WERE actually killed. Read that article again.

> Organized crime doesn't exist in the human village to our knowledge.
It's certainly possibly they are all murdered. Though, there is also the fact they are basically outcompeted by youkai effectively filling the role or organized crime. It's also possible though that they do exist and are simply never mentioned. It's like assuming the human village has no prostitution just because it was never mentioned. It's possible, but not a guarantee.

>rebellion is people outside of the human village died.
Is there any reason to assume that wasn't Yukari's doing? The entire thing is very early lore, but if we are to try and translate it to modern Gensokyo with everything we now know it is very likely they were deliberate murder disguised as accidents. Hell, if murder mysteries are that alien of a concept to them then most likely don't exactly have fantasy Japanese sherlock holmes walking around.

>We know that Yukari tends to target actual criminals for spiriting away.
Yes, because they taste better. Assuming they decide to stay in the human village and start causing trouble they will most likely be eliminated.

>How could people die without youkai actively killing them, given the spell card rules?
Spell card rules, as described in PMISS are very questionable canon.

>>44937933
Translation?

>>44933872
A stagnant society *is* pretty miserable, anon. The villagers don't invent, create art (their most established author is a weird outlier who's an actual youkai collaborator), or come up with new ideas, their society is basically dead.
The reason they're so fond of outsiders is because they're basically the only source of new ideas, an opportunity to bring change to the village. Other than them, the only major sources of excitement come from youkai and gods; something like Kokoro's performances are major events, but very little comes from the villagers themselves. Their situation is not one of active danger, but there's certainly a depressive undercurrent following throughout the village, which, of course, is all by design, since their purpose is to fear youkai and nothing else.

Maybe it was a mistake for Touhou to only have the one village. There's no movement, no small communities with their own differences, no exchange of ideas.
It's all just kind of stagnant and unchanging.

>>44940335
this is why I like Niy's doujins so much, since he changed it to multiple villages, let the canal actually become a trade route and a way for them to bring building supplies around, and they negotiate with the tengu for building contracts instead of letting the tsuchigumo take all the work

>>44940335
>Maybe it was a mistake for Touhou to only have the one village.
I feel it's a pretty deliberate move both in and out universe. Though I do agree it makes the setting far more depressing. I also kind of like the idea of other human communities. Mokou's page in PMISS mentions a community of youkai exterminators living outside the village. While it seems to just be a pure myth, and obviously Mokou is not part of them even if they did exist, it is a idea I do like which is why I copied it for my story. You could have plenty of cool similar ideas like a village of magicians or a group of half human/youkai that live with the Tengu. Have a community of Egyptian tomb keepers that are guarding an pyramid that somehow got transported to Gensokyo.

Honestly, while I get why they did it, I actually kind of wished Sakuya wasn't the only human working in the SDM. I think it would be much more interesting if there were several human maids and butlers working there all loyal to Remilia. With the implication being that they are a group of outcast that just kind of formed around Remilia and left with her to Gensokyo.

>>44933818
woah i bet she kills people on daily basis

>>44940376
>>44940416
Man, this is making me wish we got the Gensokyo most people imagined it was back before FS, not this boring dystopia we have now.
Screw this. I'm gonna make my own Gensokyo, with proper spellcard rules, and white wolf maid cafes! In fact, forget Gensokyo and spellcards!

>>44943896
Getting decapitated by a biker probably got her to calm down somewhat.

>>44944280
>it was back before FS,
More symposium, really.

>Screw this. I'm gonna make my own Gensokyo,
Welcome aboard.

Remember: It's not stealing if no publisher knows about Touhou.

>>44944280
>FS
I might have to reread but FS is pretty far from making Gensoukyou look bad. Aside from the fortune teller and even if you look at his backstory he managed to life by himself outside of the village, so it seems that it's still not like in an RPG where the moment you step outside of a town every monster will try to kill you.
Snake youkai who did a crime as bad as not paying for food got under control by Mamizou.
Suzu would probably die in any other setting with magic considering how carefree she is around cursed books and shit.
The evil dragon is actually grateful of those that help revive him instead of being le bad guy who goes "you are no longer of use to me"
Suzu also tries to catch a Kappa, in a society with a clear upper class you'd think she would at the very least get beaten up for that.

It doesn't seem to be that bad in FS honestly, although I preferred my PMiSS view where Reimu, Marisa & co. where just the strongest humans around but villagers could still stand against most youkai.

>>44944446
>More symposium, really
It's three things: SoPM, WaHH chapter 14, I believe, and FS. I only mentioned FS because it had the most obvious impact.
>publisher
Woah, man, I ain't going that far. I just wanted a chill setting to run a less perilous campaign in, and Touhou turned out to be something opposite.
Getting a sense of deja vu here. We've talked about this before, haven't we?
>>44948002
I too might be misremembering some things, but from what I do remember most youkai Kosuzu does meet are either not that dangerous or somewhat law-abiding. It's a thing most people forget about the "youkai don't kill villagers" rule - it's a rule made by people, not an unbreakable law of nature. Unless it was the part of the devil's contract, so yet another retcon of PMiSS. FS in general seems like some kind of anti-PMiSS. Really, just reread the prologue and monologue and tell me it's in the same setting as FS.
>It doesn't seem to be that bad in FS honestly
Only if you ignore the implications, it's much worse.
I'm half asleep and might be rambling incoherently, apologies.

>>44948673
reinforcing my theory that grimsokyofags don't actually like touhou

>>44948684
I don't get it. Not liking the dystopian elements of the setting makes me a grimfag?

>>44948002
>is pretty far from making Gensoukyou look bad.
Seriously? It shows the human village, as well as Gensokyo as a whole, as pretty dystopian on top of having an human character that literally would rather die than stay in Gensokyo as a human.

>Suzu would probably die in any other setting with magic considering how carefree she is around cursed books and shit.
Suzu WOULD have died if it wasn't for Yukari protecting her.

>The evil dragon is actually grateful of those that help revive him instead of being le bad guy who goes "you are no longer of use to me"
In the Nasuverse doing that gets you a girlfriend and nobody is going to claim that's not a grimdark setting.

>>44948673
>Getting a sense of deja vu here. We've talked about this before, haven't we?
Probably.

>>44933769
I bet all they could see is her panties

bump

>>44950181
> rather die than stay in Gensokyo as a human.
You also have suicide in the outside world.
Also I'm either massively forgetting or you mean the fortune teller.
If it's the latter I don't think people off themselves knowing that they'll revive.
>WOULD have died if it wasn't for
If you start using that in other settings a lot of shit might go to grim real quick unless we talk about Indiana Jones or stuff like that.
And that specific case is a youkai helping a human.
>Nasuverse
Sadly Nasuverse is one of those things I never really got into. Thought it was just dark with horny tho.
>>44948673
>most youkai Kosuzu does meet are either not that dangerous or somewhat law-abiding. It's a thing most people forget about the "youkai don't kill villagers" rule - it's a rule made by people, not an unbreakable law of nature.
That's why I said FS specifically, laws are also just laws irl and in FS we had "enforcement" even against a crime like not paying for food that was just committed by a newcomer youkai.
> FS in general seems like some kind of anti-PMiSS.
The contrast is heavy indeed, dunno where the whole human-youkai interactions went.
The strange thing I noticed tho is that in the PMiSS manga prologe the maidservants of Akyuu freak out when they see Yukari.
But to be fair Yukari also creeps out Rinnosuke, so she might have(or had, huh) a uncanny aura sort of thing.

I should probably go back to FS though since I'm not sure if somethings were from FS or elsewhere.

>>44924657
>what leads to Rinnosuke thinking a computer tablet is basically just a paperweight or mirror.
IIRC, he know it *can* do more, but he can't figure *how* it can do more. So they're only *useful* as paperweights or mirrors to Gensokyo residents.

>>44957473
>Sadly Nasuverse is one of those things I never really got into.
You're not missing out on much

>>44934040
You are either a magnificent troll or the most sheltered dumbass-who-thinks-he's-a-genius I've seen in a while online. Congratulations.
Inb4: >Prove me wrong
I don't care to fully unpack your mess of assumptions, but could start by looking up the concept of "typical minding."

>>44898897
Sakuya was always dumb, remember her trying to open the window of a rocket?

>>44898897
She probably heard that from Patchouli and just parroted it.

>>44958185
Yet Marisa was wrong and no one died from asphyxiation, because it turned out Sakuya was actually right about there still being air outside. If or how she already knew that is anyone's guess.

>>44898897
one of sakuya's abilites is that her breast size and intelligence are inversely correlated and freely adjustable

>>44957473
>If it's the latter I don't think people off themselves knowing that they'll revive.
Fair, but i still doubt you would agree to any plan that involves killing yourself if you were perfectly happy.

>If you start using that in other settings a lot of shit might go to grim real quick unless we talk about Indiana Jones or stuff like that.
Well, yeah. How dark or unpleasant a setting is can often be determined by how high the stakes get.

>And that specific case is a youkai helping a human.
It's one playing favorites. It's hardly a example of Gensokyo being a good place to live.

> Thought it was just dark with horny tho.
Well, yes. But Micheal Jackson and his Dragon GF are pretty wholesome though.

>The strange thing I noticed tho is that in the PMiSS manga prologe the maidservants of Akyuu freak out when they see Yukari.
To be fair, Yukari is pretty infamous and disliked even among Youkai. Even if we assume humans and youkai get along, I doubt it applies to her.

>>44957785
Anon, you are the sheltered dumbass that thinks living in a backwards isolated village controlled by murderous assholes is just the top. If you can't disprove the fact that living in Gensokyo as a human is basically just like living in Isreal as a Palestinian then don't bother trying to argue.

>>44959108
I've always assumed the Youkai didn't want to have to kill outsiders, and that not all of them did it, it's a shitty factor of their biology, I mean most Youkai we meet don't seem particularly invested in the Youkai lifestyle.

>>44959463
>I've always assumed the Youkai didn't want to have to kill outsiders,
Most normal Youkai are pretty into it. I certainly never got teh impression from Mystia, Medicine, Rumia, Yukari, Letty, Murasa, Momoyo, or even Remilia that they had much regret. In fact, the only Youkai we see having any issue with eating people is Nitori. Whose reaction is less "This is morally wrong" and more "Eating anus balls is gross".

>>44959508
I've always assumed Yukari was just acting, since Everytime she shows up her authenticity is questioned. Rumia is literally Aya's case study for someone who doesn't care about being a Youkai, she seems emblematic of the same sort of decline Aya complains about the humans having.
Also I don't think we've seen much of Momoyo to say either way, she certainly doesn't live her life the way her species is supposed to.
Although yes medicine, mystia, and Mira are pretty Youkai-esq-youkaj, but isn't medicine's story about her being a new Youkai full of hate that has to learn to be less of a piece of shit?

>>44959533
Yukari might be faking a lot of it, but she is teh one behind the spiriting behind and I don't get the impression she feels particularly bad about it. She probably justifies throwing little kids at slavering monsters with some weak sauce "This is the only way they'll experience the true smiles denied to them in the outside world", but she does still do it.

>Rumia is literally Aya's case study for someone who doesn't care about being a Youkai,
She's lazy, not moralistic. She's like a pitcher plant waiting for people to wander into her mouth.

>Also I don't think we've seen much of Momoyo to say either way, she certainly doesn't live her life the way her species is supposed to.
That's fair, but she doesn't seem to have any issue eating people.

>but isn't medicine's story about her being a new Youkai full of hate that has to learn to be less of a piece of shit?
It's mostly about her being young and stupid. It borders on being a joke since she's trying to start a doll rebellion... as in a rebellion of non sentient objects. It's ultimatly not that different from the mentality of most animal youkai, even the mice close to Nazrin apparently regularly devour people alive.

>>44959463
>>44959508
That's the thing - most youkai don't actually need to eat people, yet they still do it because they're assholes.
Honestly, I could get how with general vagueness and some info from back before 2012 one could perhaps see Gensokyo as somewhat alright, even with general sociopathy of the named characters and maneating. But there's too much stuff contradicting this kind of interpretation now.

>>44958881
>Fair, but i still doubt you would agree to any plan that involves killing yourself if you were perfectly happy.
I would rather count it as some sort of ritual, like linking your soul to a book to get power and so on. Would consider it maybe more an act of stupidity than despair.
A lot of people seem to have a plan that is just killing themselves without any legit magic keikaku behind of it. So if that reasoning makes FS villagers look miserable it may put real life into le grimdark. iirc the only legit suicide we got was DiPP, but being an outsider in Gensoukyo has always been at the very least risky.

>Well, yeah. How dark or unpleasant a setting is can often be determined by how high the stakes get.
I think that sort of thinking affects more other settings than Touhou.

>It's one playing favorites
Fair, still have to recheck how that whole thing played out.

>But Micheal Jackson and his Dragon GF are pretty wholesome though.
LMAO, I assume that's Fate stay night? A reason why I didn't get into it is due it growing to much before I got into it, but I guess I could play/read it telling myself that I'll only go to the most iconic stuff.

>Yukari is pretty infamous and disliked
They seemed more worried about it being a youkai than Yukari so it still seems like an odd thing to me, maybe Akyuu went full shizo when writing PMiSS due to only having youkai friends around and it has always been like that.
Dam unreliable narrators.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DkQ2JHB5cZY

>>44963420
didn't expect that, of all things, to get a sequel

>>44962615
A little off topic but is akyuu younger here or is it just differences in drawing style compared to FS?

>>44963571
I thought it was just Aki Eda not making Marisa look like an absolute womanlet but no, she really is small.
Might be the only character that grows in all of Touhou.

>>44963571
differences in drawing style wouldn't really account for the significantly different proportions in FS
she's far more adult-sized here while she looks far more like a child in Memorizable Gensokyo

>>44963571
I heard a theory that ZUN was slowly aging her up over time because she is a growing child.

>>44940291
>>44938010
>We know that Yukari tends to target actual criminals for spiriting away.
Y>We know that Yukari tends to target actual criminals for spiriting away.
Yes, because they taste better. Assuming they decide to stay in the human village and start causing trouble they will most likely be eliminated.
>Yes, because they taste better.
Where was that said?
Searching for it only came up with TvTropes(lmao)

>>44966183
Not sure in this sense, but certain mental disorders and anxieties can manifest as tasting better for those that eat humans, such as Yamame being chased off the temple grounds because she likes the way the human regrets taste.

>>44906146
>Sakuya is an airhead
This. Ever since that FS Chapter with the Chupacabra (I think) I can never take those always serious, super smart version of Sakuya

So does the Human Village have any sort of Government structure to it?

>>44940335
>A stagnant society *is* pretty miserable, anon.
not if it's fucking ARCADIAN LOOK UP THE FUCKING WORD

>>44972230
that is the very specific possibility that the youkai never want to happen
I imagine there's probably elders or something that people go to, but there's no leaders, as in people making decisions for the hole village

>>44966183
It wasn't said. Yamame, not Yukari, talks about different tastes to mental illnesses.
>>44938900
Dipshit.

>>44940291
>1: People WERE actually killed. Read that article again.
No. Do a ctrl+f for 殺 (that means kill)
It only says they died and it was explained to you how you can die from a youkai encounter without the youkai trying to kill you.
If you met Medicine Melancholy you could die without her noticing you're even there.

>>44940335
>>44972271
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arcadia_(utopia)
Aya doesn't like this because it's boring and she doesn't like boring. Many examples of this. I'm pretty sure she's even outright said if there's no story, create a mess to start one.

>>44968343
Also consider that there's many different ways to look at something than how it seemingly appears on the surface. You could easily argue that Sakuya was in actuality the true culprit behind that incident the entire time.
Think about what resulted at the end of that whole mess: cryptids were becoming the talk of the town as well as both Reimu and Marisa becoming interested enough to capture their very own "tupai". Perhaps that could've
been Sakuya's intent all along? After all wouldn't that make her job much easier, in case the mistress were to find interest in collecting even more of the super rare oddities that somehow find their way into Gensokyo?
It was that impish little wink she did at the end that really sold it for me; a lot of people seem to forget that canonically, Sakuya is also a troll.

>>44973718
>canonically, Sakuya is also a troll.
But... she's human isn't she?

>>44973740
Who are you quoting?

>>44973747
>>44973718

>>44973740
She's inhuman!

>>44972285
>Dipshit
no u

>>44974963
I like to imagine the village has a pretty active printing scene, some lady has to make all of those flyers.
Also I wonder were the stuff for all of those sweets comes from, is it made of humans?

>>44975392
FS shows that they do at least have woodblocks, and they do print books. Makes PMiSS retcons all the more obvious.
>I wonder were the stuff for all of those sweets comes from
What sweets?

>>44975530
Have you been reading detective satori? miz is weak to sweets and gets served a giant thing of ice cream? I can't really tell what it is.

>>44975615
Ah, those. This
>is it made of humans
confused me, why would a human in the Village sell human pastry in the middle of the day?
Well, I'm not big into agricuture, but I have heard in one of these threads that Gensokyo's geography does not allow growing sugar cane. Though there are alternative methods of getting sugar, like sugar beets, that seem to fit the local fields more.

>>44975659
Obviously they get the sugar from humans like how the kappa get their vitamin from ass balls or whatever.

>>44975670
Are you telling me villagers are cannibals? Am I getting trolled?

>>44975690
Where else would they get the sugar? Also it's not really cannibalism of not meat is involved

>>44975728
>Where else would they get the sugar?
I've just told you a couple possible solutions and you just jump to the worst possible one like it's the only one.
>Also it's not really cannibalism of not meat is involved
>Chairman Sheng-ji Yang, "Ethics for Tomorrow"

>>44975768
Do we ever see beet farming, more importantly the villagers are substance farmers.
In fact the only industrial scale form of farming we do know of in Gensou is humans, while we have no evidence to support the beet theory.

>>44975859
Human bodies don't have the amount of sugar required for a confectionery industry, you'd have to kill millions yearly. Just that icecream in CDS would need at least 30 people for it.
>Do we ever see beet farming
Do we ever see tea farming? No, yet everyone still drinks tea, and a lot, so we can assume it happens in the background.
>In fact the only industrial scale form of farming we do know of in Gensou is humans,
No evidence for that, only guesses and implications that may or may not be true.

>>44975993
Honestly the Youkai probably kill thousands a month in order to support their populations desire for human flesh, 30 is a drop in the bucket.
And the SDM can just get tea from the outside world since they have confirmed connections there.

>>44976008
At this point I'm convinced you just skim through my posts without reading, so I'll try to shorten them.
Where does Human Village get their tea?

>>44976031
Dunno, probably farms. They do seem to have a lot of those around and tea is the type of bare commodity i'd expect somewhere as backwards as the human village to have.

>>44975659
>Though there are alternative methods of getting sugar, like sugar beets, that seem to fit the local fields more.
If I recall correctly, Hokkaido is the only part of Japan with ideal sugar beet climate, while Okinawa is the only part with sugarcane climate. Most of Japan prefers HFCS as a sweetener, but I would be more likely to assume they're growing another fruit. Technically you can extract sugar from nearly any plant, it's just some are higher concentration and more ideal for mass sugar production than others.

>>44975670
Only place I heard that about was in off, but that was a pretty subreal place.
>>44975993
Technically anything that you can turn into alcohol "could" be used to produce sugar, I think tho that syrups are easier to make than solid sugar, and of course most cases would still have some sort of added flavor, just like non whitened sugar.
But considering ZUN, the answer is probably Amazake(sweet low alcohol content drink) which irc is ancient.

>>44976111
>>44976137
It's probably rice syrup.

>>44976144
I still think humans are more likely the idea that subsistence farms produce enough excess rice to where they can make whatever that abomination Mizu eats as well as any other misc sweet is less believable to me than the harvesting humans option.
Especially since we know harvesting of humans is a thing that happens.

>>44976154
>farms produce enough excess rice to where they can make whatever that abomination
They have literal gods blessing their crops, their farms probably produces the triple than a normal farm would produce plus being completly protected from pests that eat them.

>>44976154
The Human Village is usually drawn as a city. I think subsistence farm is pushing it.

>>44976196
You mean that shitty Moriya protection racket, at most they probably produce the same level a human could make if they used outside world technology like fertilizer.
But we have no proof of even that just assumptions, while we do know the Moriyas threaten to curse people who don't donate.

>>44976154
I doubt youkai would waste humans to fed new humans, and it's less efficient, if you want to make a grim fan story of touhou about that go ahead.
>>44976221
>But we have no proof of even that just assumptions
And a bunch of youkai doing an inefficient process to make sugar, for humans is legit reasoning?
At least you could say that youkai make it for themselves instead of spending it on humans.

>>44976221
Again jumping straight to the worst possible conclusion. And here I thought I was the "grimfag" here.

>>44976260
I assume some of the humans they eat are processed and youkai already do business with the humans. The humans just don't ask where the sugar comes from.
Yuuka buys flowers, the market god does markets, and the kappa and yamawaro sell their wares, not to mention the Tengu gaslighting the villagers with propaganda in the form of youkai biased newspapers.

>>44976275
Still the inefficacy of the process is absurd, it would be much easier if the harvest gods themselves just did the sugar with their powers since they could produce plenty harvest, sell that to youkai for faith and so on.
The only way to make this HannibalLand imo would be making the human processing via bs magic and if you use bs magic for that you could just use it on rice, or heck if we count humans as rich in sugar leftovers from woodwork could also be used, or crop leftovers.
I just can see any way this holds up, youkai processing human meat? fine, but to get sugar out of humans would be a waste of human flesh.

>>44976334
Well yeah I am assuming they use magic to process the humans, but that's what the youkai do, and time and time again it's hamered hom in how humans are just materials to be used, with WBaWC being the clearest example of it in the games.
The moriya's being harvest gods have nothing to do with the above, they threaten to curse people if they don't comply and if they do they just don't get cursed, none of that contradicts cannon to my knowledge.

>>44976361
>moriya's being harvest gods
Anon, what part of "Aki Minoriko exists" you don't get?

>>44976375
Aren't they only active around autumn, also they're kind of shit and weak, what do they do, make sweet potatoes and do danmaku.
Glorified Youkai, that's all gods are.

>>44976375
>>44976385

>>44976361
There are plenty of praying gods for good harvest if you look up old stories but 0 turning humans into sugar and I don't remember humans ever becoming some material goods in Japanese myths afaik, there are also gods that help with processing stuff such as sake and so on.
idk, maybe there is some myth of a youkai turning humans into some sort of food that you are drawing your conclusions of, but they seem pretty much to come out of nowhere.
WBaWC is about hell not Gensokyo, you can draw parallels with it to Gensokyo the same way you can with real life, don't think it's much of an argument.
Sweeteners can come from a lot of places, it's just that sugar was the most exploitable humans found, heck you might even argue that the sugar bags people forget about end in Gensokyo or that some youkai get it from the outside world or something
If you really like the idea of humans becoming sugar that's fine, but If you claim that to be canon is a bit too much.

>>44976490
I still disagree with you and I don't believe my beliefs are non-canonical, they are apocryphal like all headcannons are.
I just can't see god ever helping humans out other than the bare minimum, all the on screen example we get are shitty and corrupt with no 'good' on screen ones.
Humans are already used as food and there's practically an unlimited amount of outsiders for Youkai to hunt or kill of their own volition through Yukari, their own means, or natural phenomenon so the human angle makes the most sense to me.
Also literally every society we see uses humans or at least living sentient beings as raw material be it hell, gensokyo, the moon, the nether world, or even the future of the outside world. On sof the messages I read from touhou is the fundamental value that life has due to its expendable nature and use as a resource.

>>44976522
You contrarian faggot scum pond FUCK. How the fuck can youkai even use humans as sugar, that is extremely fucking retarded. You could just say the more obvious explanation of sugar being harvested or sugar alternatives, BUT NO, fucking human sugar. What a FUCKING RETARD.

>>44976522
Still I gotta say where you got the idea of sugar out of all things?
I mean there are things one might not think about like bones ending in ceramic and stuff, but if you're reaching this much then you could also say that nobody actually eats flesh since afaik there isn't any youkai eating a human explicitly shown aside from this guys imagination >>44974963
While gods helping with harvest appears in Minoriko's profile:
>She's called to the village as a special guest at the harvest festival every year. If she is not called for before the harvest, she is not able to guarantee an abundant harvest

>>44976611
I got the idea because I was wondering how the village get enough sugar to make stuff like the abomination mizuchi eats and since we already know human processing is basically a thing which how often eating human comes up that's what I settled on because it made the most sense to me

>>44976617
FUCKING RETARD!

>>44976617

Youkai grind up human corpses for fertilizer. Then they whip the vengeful spirits of the dead into carrying the fertilizer down to Hell, where the warm climate of the fires (fuelled by the suffering of the vengeful spirits) keeps it warm enough for sugarcane to survive. However, to get the cane growing they also have chain gangs of enslaved living humans who are worked to death in Hell. See? Easier and more logical than villagers growing it along with the other crops.

>>44976617
>abomination
Parfait is the word. You make it with cream, egg, sugar and syrup, but it's usually served with ice cream, fruit and more things in Japan.
Now that I think of it recipes of the outside world might be the sort of info villagers are interested in since like >>44927076 points out stuff like electronics is hard to recreate, but new ways of cooking is something they could easily teach.

>>44972271
It's explicitly called "Arcadian stagnancy". It's not meant to be Utopian, it's at best a parody of the concept of a Arcadian utopia. Showing how empty and hollow it actually would be.

>>44972296
>They weren't killed, they just died.
There is just as much reason to assume it was murder as there is to assume it was a accident.

>>44975728
>Where else would they get the sugar?
Same place salt merchant gets salt.

If I had to guess, I would have to assume most merchants are trading with Yukari who presumably provide sugar the old fashioned way. Using humans seems excessive even for Gensokyo. Though I almost kind of like the idea of the Kappa selling ground up anus balls as salt. It's like when I found out kroepoek was made of shrimps and prawns.

>>44976778
A shame Yukari will probably never abduct any Italians. Imagine how quickly Pizza would catch on.

>>44976611
>>She's called to the village as a special guest at the harvest festival every year. If she is not called for before the harvest, she is not able to guarantee an abundant harvest
Sounds like a protection racket, frankly.

>>44976995
They can still get a regular harvest or even an abundant one, Minoriko just makes it a certainty.

>>44977045
The fact she's just one of many harvest gods makes it sound kind of questionable though.

>>44977058
Why? She's the god of autumn harvests. There's just many gods who do the same thing, is that somehow hard to believe? Here's a random page listing some agricultural gods, notice how half of them are rice related.
https://www.onmarkproductions.com/html/food-kami.html

>>44977084
>There's just many gods who do the same thing, is that somehow hard to believe?
If all of them are needed to "ensure" a abundant harvest, then yes.

With that said, this is probably just ZUN not thinking through his world-building. Aki seems like a good egg... Uh, potato.

>>44977094
None them are needed to "ensure" one, they just make it a 100% guarantee if you respect them, as opposed to whatever % it would be from regular human agriculture.

I would appreciate if you lore nerds answered this important question:
>>44957429

>>44977101
I get that, my issue is that there are several. All of which are apparently necessary to ensure a abundant harvest when one should be sufficient.

>>44977144
They are shapeshifters. They can look whatever the fuck they want.

Interestingly, actual Japanese hares have brown fur but it can turn white as a result of snowfall.

>>44977151
But why do all of them have white ears? WHY?

>>44977145
Not all of which are necessary, see Minoriko. A single one can handle a bountiful harvest by themselves, it's all faith proportional. I assume she's mostly forgotten because she can only do one season, and people would rather pray to Inari which is probably one of the most well known gods out there and I'd assume he/she (it's kinda unclear) can do it all year-round and is kind of a multi-tool of a god who also does fertility and success in business so he's just that much better.
Minoriko's PMiSS article also states
>On top of that, she works hard to cultivate each plant one by one, so there is a limit to how many crops she can accommodate (*1).
>1: The number of people who worship her determines the quantity of plants she can tend to.
I think if her faith wasn't divided between a bunch of other gods (and those other gods are already overshadowed by Inari) she could ensure a bountiful harvest by herself.

>>44976959
>it's at best a parody of the concept of a Arcadian utopia. Showing how empty and hollow it actually would be.
Not unless it's the phrasing used in the original.

>>44977179
Well, I can't speak Japanese.

The point of Aya's speech within context though is pretty obviously that it's bad.

>>44977173
Reisen's ears are actually fake. Presumably Tewi and her crew all have white ears (Maybe they are her children?" and Reisen is trying to fit in.

>>44977178
I get that. Like I said, it's just weird that she's a requirement for a good harvest but also mostly forgotten and unpopular.

I do wonder though how abundant gensokyo's food supply actually is. My headcanon assumption is pretty generous, but at the same time livestock and food theft by youkai is extremely common. I wouldn't be suprised if half of all food they produce ends up feeding youkai.

>>44977197
>she's a requirement for a good harvest but also mostly forgotten and unpopular.
She's not a requirement, she's a cheat code to get one and she's not the only one.
She's a R2+L2+Triangle+Square+R3 and L3 at the same time at exactly 4:34pm and it has a 20 minute cooldown code, so people have turned to the other cheat code that's just press R2+L2 for a good harvest, and also good business and also good bloodline prosperity, but some puritans still do the original cheat code because they have respect for it.

>>44977246
I guess that's a fair way of looking at it.

I suppose this would probably make her one of the few mostly benevolent figures in Gensokyo.

>>44975659
The real answer is that ZUN never put that much thought into it. Gensokyo's economy is one of the aspects of Touhou that will never stand up to any real scrutiny, unless you want to answer every question with "Yukari handles it".
You can't even assume the youkai supply a lot of necessary materials, since it's well established that youkai mostly just play around and don't produce much in the way of practical results, such as the Kappa mostly just building whatever random shit they feel like, or the Tengu obsessing over newspapers to the point where the supply vastly outweighs the demand. They're certainly not producing anything useful.

Even the faith economy makes little sense. It's hard to believe that one village can somehow supply enough belief to sustain numerous youkai and gods without issue, especially when you consider that even Old Hell, which is filled with largely forgotten and unknown creatures, was doing fine even before they started to appear more on the surface again.
>>44976196
I don't think the gods involved are actually all that powerful, certainly not compared to outside world technology. Minoriko is canonically pretty limited, and I don't think the others are all that better off on a per-crop basis, especially if they're still active in the outside instead of making Gensokyo their home.
Plus, the village notably suffered from a rat plague in FS that was only stopped through Reisen's technology instead of any divine intervention, so their "protection" clearly isn't 100%.

>>44978191
Honestly, fairies probably do more for the crops than the gods do. The best farmers are the ones who manage to convince the fairies to play on his rice fields and pump that shit full of life.

>>44977344
I would disagree, she doesn't particularly care about the humans at all her.profile also sad.
" If she is not called for before the harvest, she is not able to guarantee an abundant harvest, but that's not her problem, and she would not point it out."
She neutral at best and taking advantage of the villagers trapped in Gensokyo at worst, she's specifically called out to basically be a youkai and there's very little difference between what she does and what the youkai do.

>>44976490
Youkai society is literally built on humans. They eat humans, they need human belief, and their societies are just crude mockeries of human societies. Literally everything they do is built off of humans, they are literally the product of human beliefs.
Just like the Keike and her haniwa, just like literally every other god.

>>44978343
It refers to the fact she does each plant one by one and since she's mostly forgotten, she can't do that much and needs time.
Imagine if Jesus was only known in a single country, by a single village, who let's say half the population even knows he exists. You pray him over or whatever you need to do to have him turn a bunch of water barrel into wine, usually he can just do it instantly just fine, but since he has low faith, he needs 3 to 4 business days to do the amount you asked, are you mad he didn't tell you before hand?
It's just part of the ritual, God doesn't tell you to pray for a miracle for one to happen. You just do it to show your respect for him.
How exactly is she taking advantage of the villagers? She doesn't destroy crops for no reason, she's just forgotten over other argicultural gods who do the same job as her for other seasons/all-year round. She helps humans if they ask her to, how is that taking advantage? Because she doesn't do it if no one asks, meaning she disappears and wouldn't be able to do it regardless?
Can you also show me where she's called out to be basically a youkai? Nothing close to that in either dialogue, profile or PMiSS article.

You won.
Fuck it, I'm starting to think canon Touhou is not for me.

>>44982011
The sooner people admit "grimfags" are actually just people who know that cannon the better.
Even the "nice" harvest gods are just preying on humans opportunistically.

>>44982011
This is just Aya's speculation, she's even making a definitive statement.

>>44982072
This is just Aya's speculation, she's not even making a definitive statement.

>>44982068
>The sooner people admit "grimfags" are actually just people who know that cannon the better.
Canon.
Please learn how to spell before claiming something, even if it's all smoke and mirrors.

>>44982011
>This is just Aya's speculation, she's not even making a definitive statement.
third time is the charm

>>44982087
Who are you quoting?

>>44982011
This is just Aya's speculation, she's not even making a definitive statement.
Fourth time it is then, jesus.

>>44982011
Yes anon Aya is know to be the bearer of the truth incarnate.

>>44982097
Anon I...

>>44982097
The guy he is replying to? Fuck off with the forced meme it does not even apply here.

>>44982122
Am I supposed to respond politely when he insists a spelling mistake invalidates my belief.

>>44982236
I insist that you're a dumbass who equates edgelord fantasies to canon despite literally every piece of canon pointing you away from your conclusions with the sole exceptions of whatever Aya writes (Known liar and horrendously biased) and the omake of EoSD (More or less retconned in all but name by the manga).
Spelling mistakes like that only reinforce the conclusion. Asking someone who they are quoting when they literally are in fact quoting correctly is just retarded.

Face it, human zoo grimfag lore is a result of a circlejerk that refuses to acknowledge anything but SoPM, and fills in each and every gap with fanon while claiming total canonicty.
I mean come on, even zounuse himself openly states that he just like guro and edge, and you retards worship him for being the grim messiah.

>>44982301
Who ever said anything about zounose, I never mentioned him at least. Not to mention gensokyo is literally a human zoo and was created to preserve youkai, it's called the Youkai expansion project for a reason.

>>44979729
That's a pretty odd bit of info considering that gods live on faith, but maybe it's some sort of way to make her be more like a local business and Kanako le aggressive marketing big business that comes to your face.
>>44976732
Geez anon, are you really gonna use magic to grow that one plant of many that could be used for sweetening instead of thinking that Majin Buu works in the Kappa factory?
That's the only way that things make sense to me. Tho I think that since we have that high level wacky magic as 200% canon it's clear that there's a more efficient way to do things that we are missing for it all to make sense:
Danmaku seems to allow the duplication of physical objects, it even seem to work to make food based danmaku like cucumbers or the roasted beans that Patche wanted to make as anti-oni danmaku.
So the youkai did the same with human bodies, on their sleep they duplicate their bodies, the resulting clone is similar but it is souless, still tasty and rich in sugar.
This would even explain the weird nameless duplicated bones in CoLA, some airhead youkai don't keep up with the protocols to use the bones properly.
But know things are better since our local magician has learned sugar transmutation lv5 to transform bones into sugar, so no more weird bones.
>But, where's my grimkino?
Quoting some guy that wanted more FS mangas, I think.
In that case humans commit suicide on a daily basis cause life is suffering, and youkai revive them against their will putting their soul back into a new body and using the dead body to cook tasty meals.

>>44982330
Everyone talks about it being a human zoo, when in reality it's a carefully maintained nature preserve where even the ones "preserving" are part of the system and can't escape it. Some humans die by youkai, some don't. Some youkai get permanently killed due to different circumstances, some don't. Some gods are the same. All of the groups are full of both self-serving, corrupt assholes and the kindest, most benevolent and helpful beings and everyone in between. It's not one way or another, people. It's grim to some and cute to others, both in and out of the in-universe lore, but it all depends on what side of the shit stick you get stuck with based on point of view and where you fall in the different societies within Gensokyo and outside Gensokyo in the "real world".

>>44982301
Look, I'm the guy who posted Aya's comment. Sorry, I've overreacted.
That said, there's not a single thing to contradict the human zoo/farm/whatever narative. Humans there are ignorant of their position, and the ones that aren't are either privileged or not happy about it. That is a fact. If you can prove it wrong then please do, because I hate it as much as you do.
Also, you're really killing your own argument by mentioning zounose.

>>44982443
Not him but if by that logic they are a zoo, are we not a human zoo too for our rich, big nosed overlords? We exist to serve and work to make them richer.

>>44982443
>Also, you're really killing your own argument by mentioning zounose.
Not him but there's not actually much difference between what you're saying and what zounose makes.

>>44982395
The humans exist as the behest of and to serve Youkai, they aren't allowed to live anywhere else other than the village and genso relies on them as a resource.
Humans can exist in the outside world and thrive perfectly fine without Youkai, genso maybe be a nature preserve for Youkai, but it's a prison, farm, or zoo for the humans who they need to live.

>>44982494
That's why I hate it. I thought Touhou was an escape, not real life but worse. Hell, at least you can search for God IRL, while in Touhou humanity is better of without gods or anything supernatural, even with bullshit in Hifuu stories.
I feel like I've wasted my time liking something that's the polar opposite of Touhou, for reasons that don't exist, while pretending it was the real thing. Kind of pathetic. At least the games are fun.
>>44982509
You know, at this point it feels like the only difference is that ZUN doesn't show that kind of stuff directly, but you probably know better. Yes, let's just say I'm wrong, I don't want to argue. Every "lore" thread lately has been just "human village sucks", it's getting stale. Even that fanon thread I made didn't achieve much and devolved into Gaza strip posting by the end of it, really tiresome.

>>44982800
I just want a fantasy universe where it’s all paradise-like fantasy. I don’t want any grim faggotry. Any universe that exists like that?

I just want her to love me and be with me.

>>44985001
Who?

This is the touhou lore thread?

>>44985126
Nope, no one actually cares about that, it's the bad faith, pseudo-intellectuals having a cock stroking contest thread.

>>44985126
It's the dumb girl thread.
Post some dumb 2hus!

>>44985050
My favorite 2Hu lady.

>>44985346

>>44986015
Oh, shoo. You've got one, too and there's no denying it.

>>44986070
Kaguya, but only when drawn by space jin.

>>44986070
Never did, hence why I posted *her*.

>>44986086
Mine is the lovely Lady of the Scarlet Manor. So I guess Sakuya would be making that face when I give her Mistress a bouquet of roses and swear my undying love, respect, and faithfulness to her.

I prefer the "mature lady stuck in a young girls body that still can cut loose and have fun" Remilia.

Pic related. It's her after saying yes to the two of us going on a honeymoon roadtrip together- the first night at a hotel.

>>44985191
I want to stroke anon's cute cock.

>>44987096
Same but mutual rubbing too

>>44978191
>Even the faith economy makes little sense. It's hard to believe that one village can somehow supply enough belief to sustain numerous youkai and gods without issue, especially when you consider that even Old Hell, which is filled with largely forgotten and unknown creatures, was doing fine even before they started to appear more on the surface again.
While human faith is the deciding factor for the existence of supernatural creatures on Earth (Gensokyo & the Outside World), I don't think it makes sense to extend that to any of the "otherworlds" like Old/New Hell, Animal Realm, or Makai. Those, and their inhabitants, seem to exist independent of human belief. Even on Earth, all it took was some powerful magic to sequester a land area where the rules work a bit differently, and whose human faith is for internal use only.
Exactly how many believers a youkai/god needs to sustain their existence is honestly not that interesting of a question to me, when any such creature moving from the Outside to Gensokyo is doing so *while they still can*, and before their nature is too heavily altered by whatever faith remains on the Outside.

I'm not gonna quote the guy that somehow think that sugar extracted from human, but honey fucking exist you absolute troglodyte
Even in the ancient Old World, people likened sugar cane as "honey without bees" when the plant was exported out of their native range in SEA

>>44985200
If it's dumb and it works it isn't dumb.
>>44934653
I really like the idea of people getting messed up behaviour due to their skills, I also think that Reimu might be carefree due to her absurd perception skills and so on.
Also iirc Sakuya was pretty good at perceiving the fairies of light for some reason, but I think it was never addressed.

Just here to say that after reading the sugar argument I have to say that the anon postulating about human derived sugar is either a 10/10 brilliant troll or an absolute fucking retard.
Either way he's indistinguishable from an actual troll so bravo to you.

>>44998142
That's basically cannon, if i remember correctly Kasen and Mamizou talk about it, Reimu's most absurd feat, having fish make a path for her across a river also happens in a situation where she is entirely oblivious and care free.
This also lines up with how much the Sages seems to care about her mood and how she's bad at things she's stressed about like money and food, which kind of forms a shitty loop for her where stress = failure = more stress.

>>44998279
Poe's law is hard in that anon for sure.
Thought it might be a cutefag pretending to be a grimfag to then call other grimfags retards or something.
I had a good laugh tho, I just hope >>44976626 didn't burst a vein out of anger tho.

>>44982800
If what pushed you to think that touhou is full grim is just some anons posting... maybe you should not pay them too much attention.
>>44614586
>>44614636
These two anons talk about how Fortune teller died long ago, even going as far as to say that Reimu wasn't even alive when he died.
Yet if you go to the manga you'll see Marisa say he died half a year ago. But people want to defend that he was le smart mastermind that saw the outside world.
Although 世界の外側 could mean the outside world It can also be used for more mystic/magical stuff, which might be the case since he barely mentions anything of the outside world and just keeps talking about youkai in this world.
So unless I completely fucking forgot about anyone mentioning him in future chapters everyone has talked pure headcanon with that guy.
I wonder if the first translation we got of FS was just filling holes and messy, if this is some Mandela effect or if someone with a better Japanese than me can explain.
I guess the nips must have a different view on this guy and probably care less about him but I expected that anons here would know their meme character.

And then there's that people seem to love their girls evil, or love hating them for being evil I dunno.
If FT does something it's le genius Keikaku, if any girl does anything apparently dumb even if it works out in the end like in >>44958289 it's them being dumb.
So I'm really questioning the reliability of anons(and my memory) when it comes to canon.

>>44984311
If you still want some sort of magic battles the only place I can think of really is pokimon, without battles it's easier I think, you can probably make some thread asking about nice ungrim fantasy universes, since most settings tend to be pretty bad for the average human Honestly.
I guess you could if not also go to settings where le big bad already got defeated or something like that, but stuff tends to end shortly after that so it might not be what you are looking for.

>>45000105
What "pushed" me were SoPM, WaHH and FS. Grimshit just started to retroactively make more sense, not to the level of "sugar is people", but at least to the level of "villagers are completely justified in not trusting Reimu". Even the good that is shown started to seem fake in a way, like it's just a distraction. Gaza strip fag (previously North Korea fag) may have exacerbated my views, but my point still stands - Touhou is no longer the setting that I used to like. It probably never was in the first place, I just never noticed.

>>45000105
What's that one piece quote?
"Any plan that starts with your death is retarded?" - Brooks(?)
But yeah contextually I've always assumed FT was talking more generally, he talks a lot about Youkai and power, and the way he's framed makes him seem like an asshole trying to game the system.
Although that's pretty heavily influenced by my dislike of power gamer types, both irl and as characters.

Perhaps it's not the Touhou girls that have been made dumb, but the Anons.

>>45005229
Perhaps it's not the Touhou girls or the Anons that have been made dumb, but Zun after finally getting alcohol poisoning.

>>44899109
>>44899100
EoSD is a weird game and should be treated as the transitional period between eras that it technically is. ZUN clearly didn't know exactly how he wanted to develop these characters or Gensokyo as a whole, so there's a plenty of oddities in characterization and world building.
This is the game where Sakuya and Flandre break the forth wall, after all.

>>44984311
Just play literally any cute 'em up or consume pretty much any slice of life. It's not tough to find what you're describing, just know that most of it ends up feeling kind of shallow.

>>45002170
Well that makes more sense then, I still am seeking le grim in FS... at least I know I'll find some when I get to salt merchant.
I guess the true thing that got darker is that villagers went from seeming that they can defend themselves to being protected others, even if it's less grim I would have preferred that since it's a breathe of fresh air to see background characters being anything else than cannon fodder for Mr. Genocide MacDogkicker until le protag that got power due to most likely their birth circumstances or some other thing outside of their control, decides to stop him, but maybe decides to go "killing is le bad" against a monster.
>Gaza strip fag (previously North Korea fag)
Yeah, he also talked about Moe Epstein and some African countries iirc. I guess he will keep updating people on what the news say or something.
Maybe this post >>38999181 inspired him to rant about those things, dunno I thought that nobody liked politics and that ZUN talking more about that instead of just saying "lmao I do this because can and want" sucking was something we all agreed on.

>>45002703
kek, I guess but in One Piece death seemed to be a bit more permanent with the character not reappearing ever again, I guess the true grim is characters getting forgotten by ZUN.
Glad to see someone that has apparently read the same manga as me instead of seemingly picking a bunch of shitposts and headcanon to build an idea of canon.

>>45007254
I mean death is pretty permanent in Touhou too, it's just that like in One Piece you can count the number of on screen deaths on your fingers.
Actually, if I'm not mistaken the only on screen Touhou deaths are the Fortune Teller and the newborn Youkai that Marisa killed.

>>45007749
Having afterlife puts the stakes a bit down, especially if there is a chance to come back, reincarnation and so on.
But more than getting killed what bugs me is when people compare the killing yourself to transforming into something else, to people just wanting to cease their existence. I doubt fortune tellers "suicide" is even comparable to the russian guy that streamed blowing his brains out.

>>44978343
>>44981952
I mean, you could argue all gods in Gensokyo are taking advantage of humans since, if they lived in the outside world they wouldn't need them. But that's one area where even I'm willing to give them some slack.

>>44982494
>are we not a human zoo too for our rich, big nosed overlords?
Something something Palestine vs America.

>>44982800
>That's why I hate it. I thought Touhou was an escape, not real life but worse.
I don't understand why people ever assumed Touhou was a escape. Even at it's most absolute positive it was still the "Most outsiders are killed" setting. Especially with trash like Isekai raising the bar of wish fullfiment self insert fantasies to a level far beyond what Touhou is able to province I don't really get it.

>Every "lore" thread lately has been just "human village sucks", it's getting stale.
It's a hard issue to get around. For what it's worth though, I do think it's been pretty defitinvily established and I wouldn't mind discussing something else.

>>45013368
>It's a hard issue to get around.
Honestly, it's not, it's just turd burgling autists like you who can't stop bringing the conversation back around to what you hyperfixate on about Touhou and dragging the whole quality of discussion down.

>>44984311
>Any universe that exists like that?
Some Isekai is like that.

I think My Little Pony?

>>44992963
>Exactly how many believers a youkai/god needs to sustain their existence is honestly not that interesting of a question to me,
Not that many, almost certainly. Try and remember that many actual religions throughout human history have been pretty tiny.

>>44999015
Reimu's stupidity is carefree nature is literally the only reason why I'm willing to put her above the likes of Yukari. Don't assume malice when stupidity is a valid answer as well.

>>45000105
>If FT does something it's le genius Keikaku, if any girl does anything apparently dumb
FT is too clever by half. I still sympathize with him because that's exactly how I would be in Gensokyo if I didn't just kill myself for the sake of killing myself.

>So I'm really questioning the reliability of anons(and my memory) when it comes to canon.
Translations don't help matters either.

>>45007254
>Yeah, he also talked about Moe Epstein and some African countries iirc.
That wasn't me, actually.

I don't entirely disagree with the Epstein comparison, considering how human trafficking is a thing. As for Africa, I actually argued it was LESS bad than, say, Somalia or Yemen (Not a African country obviously). Since at least it wasn't in a constant state of warfare.

>>45013388
The issue is it very much changes how you view the characters and the lore. Reimu's general attitude goes from vaguely endearing to morally indefensible instantly. That's not even getting into the Youkai sages, who all instantly become totally irredeemable monsters. As well as characters like Kanako and Byakuren.

Most Touhou lore is focused around Gensokyo. You have some stuff about the Lunarians, a bit of focus being placed on the working of Hell, and the occasional focus on the outside world past, present, and future. But in practice most Touhou lore is about Gensokyo. Because of that, it's very hard to have a decent lore discussion if you don't largely agree about Gensokyo and if it's a dystopian or not. The question of "Is Gensokyo a dystopia" is mostly going to depend on the state of it's human inhabitants.

>>45013453
It's actually really easy to simply not care about what happens to nameless, faceless randoms.

>>45013466
It's not. Because the main characters aren't likeable while most of the random villager NPC are. Early Touhou largely didn't have this problem, but even then villagers as described in PMISS and Bohemia were still way more likeable than basically any Youkai. That's not even getting into what happens to Outsiders, who are by default going to be the most sympatehic and relatable group.

I've talked before about how Touhou works best if viewed as a comedy. The general sociopathy of the characters being played for laughs rather than seriously examined. The reason why people can't make threads about that is because Touhou isn't actually that funny. So, most story discussions end up being about the lore. Which means they are about if gensokyo is bad or not. Which means they focus on the people that are actually likeable and don't deserve to have bad things happen to them.

>>45013493
Here you go again, once pretending that you don't actually like talking about this, now wrapping the discussion back around to it as best as you can.

>>45013368
>I don't understand why people ever assumed Touhou was a escape.
Like I said, most people probably didn't notice / chose to ignore some aspects. I personally just liked the idea of a world with mostly non-serious conflicts, and the sort of worldbuilding gymnastics needed to keep it running, so canon Touhou feels not as interesting compared to what I imagined it to be. Like, how many actualy well thought out utopian settings do you know? Not many, because it's very easy to make it preachy or boring, so most writers cop out with "it doesn't work lmao" and make dystopias.
Also, if the characters were more likable, like the way most fanworks portray them, it would be very easy to justify killing outsiders as a necessity.
>>45013518
You must be confusing that anon with me.
That's the thing about Gaza strip fag - his main talking points are basically my points but exaggerated to riddiculous level, so now when he appears I can't get a word in without the fear of getting confused.

>>45013518
>>45013725
I am the Gaza strip fag, or whatever you want to call me. Please don't confuse me with the other anon, if only for his sake.

>Like, how many actualy well thought out utopian settings do you know?
Star Trek.

Otherwise, none.

>>45013725
>Also, if the characters were more likable, like the way most fanworks portray them, it would be very easy to justify killing outsiders as a necessity.
I find that potentially interesting because, assuming that Youkai both needed to kill people and were actually likeable, I do think a weird debate exists there. Is it wrong to murder if you have to kill to survive?

Basically the only character in Touhou this somewhat applies to is arguably Remilia and Murasa. Neither one of which are really likeable.

>>45013725
I guess that determines hoe you view the characters, we know from Zun's comment they play up antagonism to get into Danmaku duels.
But then there are things like how often do youkai kill people and which do, we know mystia likes to randomly assault people and mura likes to sink ships on the Sanzu.
But how many of the youkai do we meet actually kill and eat humans, and how many humans do the youkai we eat them eat, pre-fight dialogue isn't entirely trustable since we know people are playing it up.
But the fact is we don't have any definitive proof on the numbers of humans killed, the culture of the different youkai groups, and how many humans do die?
Like I've seen a human villager whose a obsessed with doomsday taking medication to be less of a spreg as proof of a mental health crisis in Gensokyo, but a single individual taking meds doesn't mean everyone does and every society since the beginning of times has had weird spergs with him. I mean if the villagers were miserable all the time then the Hopeless Masquerade incident would have never been noticed.

Ffs and I thought I was edgy for liking Zounose's Gensokyo, some of you lot are out there

>>45014394
>Is it wrong to murder if you have to kill to survive?
Something something vegetarian

>>45014858
>But then there are things like how often do youkai kill people
It's hard to say since we don't know the rate of abduction. If Yukari transports a person every year, and only one person, then that would leave the total casualty rate of Gensokyo at about 90 people total. Which is 1,349,910 less than the amount of people that die from car accidents... every year. Obviously the number is slightly bigger if you include villager deaths and people not directly transported by Yukari, and far as we know Yukari could be abducting ten people every month.

>But how many of the youkai do we meet actually kill and eat humans,
I'm going to mix up kill and eat, but: Rumia, Letty, Chen, Yukari, Wriggle, Mystia, Poison, Nitori, Kisume, Yamane, Reiuji, Muramasa, Nue, Takane, and Momoyo.

Suika, Kasen, Yuugi, and Urumi all used to eat/kill humans. Remilia and Flandre are special cases. Yuuka falls very much into "You brought that on yourself". Fortune Teller didn't get the chance to do anything, same for most of the minor youkai in the manga. Which really only leaves Kogasa, Nazrin (I think her mice eat people but that doesn't count), Shou, Meiling and Yamanba (They claim they do but it seems to mostly just be talk), and magicians like Alice and Patchouli (They do apparently steal kids to raise as apprentices or use as a human sacrifice)

>but a single individual taking meds doesn't mean everyone does and every society since the beginning of times has had weird spergs with him.
While you are correct, they all have.

>mean if the villagers were miserable all the time then the Hopeless Masquerade incident would have never been noticed.
To be fair, the HM situation was noticeable because they got so broken down they stopped functioning at a society. Even if their normal mode is depressed cope, that would still be noticeable.

>>45015600
The usual argument in favor of vegetarianism is that you DON'T need to eat meat as a human. Besides a few insane weirdoes I haven't seen many people make a case it's bad for lions to eat meat.

>>45016895
While Shou is probably a carnivore, I can't really see her eating humans. She's far too stuck up and dutiful to do anything of the sort.

>>45016895
>The usual argument in favor of vegetarianism is that you DON'T need to eat meat as a human
And it works the same with most youkai - they don't need the meat, but it tastes good. The way it works in Touhou is vague, since we only got characters' own words about this, but in original myths most youkai are omnivores, and eat people either because they don't care where the meat comes from, hate humans or like the taste. So far only two species are confirmed to be dependent on human produce, we can't really be sure about the rest.

>>45017010
I remember reading somewhere that Shou USED to eat people before she met Byakuren, but I can't actually remember if that's the case.

>>45017155
>we can't really be sure about the rest.
I agree but I would generally lean towards "no". Every description we have makes it pretty clear that they just view humans as a delicacy.

I find it interesting how Oni are generally pretty well known for eating people yet all of the Oni we see can all clearly do fine without.

So will it ever be answered whether afterlife realms need human belief to exist or not? Hecatia's wording that there is a hell for Otherworlds, the Earth and the Moon probably imply that they operate independently of human belief

>>45017260
>So will it ever be answered whether afterlife realms need human belief to exist or not?
Probably not.

>Hecatia's wording that there is a hell for Otherworlds, the Earth and the Moon probably imply that they operate independently of human belief
My personal guess is that they operate independently but rely on human faith. Aka: There is a afterlife, but the exact shape and form it takes depends on what humans belief in. Eiki is basically a actor and if people believed they were judged by ten foot tall tentacle monsters she would look like that, but she would still exist even if all humans assume there was nothing after death.

What I find more interestingly however is to what extent human gods can meddle with the cycle of reincarnation. They kind of have to, otherwise Buddhism just flat out wouldn't work. That seems to imply however that Christians believing in god would be freed from the cycle of reincarnation. Though they might still be let out of Hell once their sentence ends.

>>45017260
A lot of humans died during the superstitious times where a lot of the world were religious schizos that genuinely believed the world to be magical and supernatural, and those who died in those times likewise ended up in some afterlife realms that humans believed in, and since they are in it, I guess that they are sustained by the human spirits that reside there

To make it simpler, the afterlife realms get their sustenance not necessarily from humans who are still alive, but from humans who already died, if that makes sense

>>45017410
>To make it simpler, the afterlife realms get their sustenance not necessarily from humans who are still alive, but from humans who already died, if that makes sense
Makes me wonder if Hades is still around. I like the idea of Hecatia visiting her relatives every now and then to bother them.

>>45016895
>Chen, wriggle, mystia, kisume, letty, reiuji, nue, takane, momoyo
Proof on that?
>Alice and patchouli
Where did you even get that from?
Oh and also iirc it's stated that meiling's food is provided by the mansion which is why it's safe to approach her

>>45019072
Alice and Patchouli comes from BAiJR, where Akyuu describes the typical behavior of magicians, although Patchy doesn't seem to get out much and Alice seems more interested in making a kid from her dolls than kidnapping one.
Although Aya does interview Alice over how she stalks the forest at night hammering curse dolls into trees in an attempt to bring harm to somebody.Probably Marisa

Chen, alongside Orin eats and plays with the already dead they find, and Nue's whole myth is about how much of an asshole she is and how she had to be killed. Wriggle and Mystia probably do since wriggle is an insect so it'd be weird for her to not eat corpses and Mystia is a shit who goes out of her way to attack people.
I know Momoyo's species eats dragons, but other than stereotypes I can't remember anything else about that.

>>45019116
>Chen
Source on that?
Also what about letty, kisume, reiuji and takane?

>>45019116
>Mystia goes out of her way to attack people
Really? Only thing i know about her is that she tricks humans by reducing their vision so that they'd buy her grilled lampreys

>>45019157
Chen it's metioned in 19 her and Orin play with dead bodies, but it's not stated go out of her way to kill people.
About the others, Zun describes Kisume as a psycho who "go ahead and chop your head off, put it in her bucket, and go home", but she is an underground youkai and they're all down there for doing tht sort of shit.
Takane is a yamawaro who like Kappa eat ass balls ans testicles as a dietary supplement, although they don't like it. finding it gross, it's also a joke from WaHH so that might not be serious.
I know letty likes winter and considers spring suffering but her profile says she doesn't hurt people seriously and her SoPM description is basically Akyuu putting a hit out on her so it's not really trust able. Aya also says that she's like Rumia, where she may talk a big game but in practice being a youkai isn't anything special to her and she'd rather laze around from Aya's pov than attack humans.

>>45019072
Where does it say that for Meiling? Honest question-I'm curious.

Patchouli isn't interested in that sort of thing, from what she's been shown to be about. She's more into just collecting/writing the books and keeping the sisters from getting too out there.

>>45019072
>Chen
PMISS mentions she attacks people.

>Wriggle
MOSTLY her seemingly trying to eat the main characters in IN. Even demanding the Youkai of the duo to hand over the human. It somewhat contradicts her later characterization of trying to make insects more popular.

>Mystia
Her dialogue and behavior in In, her entire motivation in POFV, her article in PMISS.

Best you can say about her is that she's probably more busy nowadays selling food to humans than making humans into food.

>kisume
Symposium of Post-mysticism.

>Letty
I think her Pmiss article mentions her attacking humans. It would be in character for a youkai of her type.

>reiuji
Corpse eater. Probably doesn't eat living humans, probably.

>Nue
She is the Nue of legend. Tried to kill the Emperor.

>Takane
Kappa. Literally has to murder to not die.

>momoyo
Tries to eat the characters in game and in her omake.

>Where did you even get that from?
PMISS described that as pretty normal magician behavior. Patchouli and Alice are PROBABLY exempt though due to their circumstances.

>Oh and also iirc it's stated that meiling's food is provided by the mansion which is why it's safe to approach her
Correct. It's possible that food is people, leftovers after Sakuya is done extracting blood, but I'm actually willing to give her some benefit of the doubt and assume no. She's noted in universe as being very reasonable, and not just because she's well fed.

>>45019209
Orin is explicitly noted as NOT killing people. Chen might be likewise, but her PMISS description calls that into question. It doesn't help that Ran spoiling her is actually pretty canonical.

>it's also a joke from WaHH so that might not be serious.
There are multiple mentions of Kappa eating ass balls.

>Aya also says that she's like Rumia, where she may talk a big game but in practice being a youkai isn't anything special to her and she'd rather laze around from Aya's pov than attack humans.
I think that's fair, though like Rumia I also doubt she wouldn't kill a human unfortunate enough to get close.

>>45019301
>>45019290
Keep in mind it's stated that letty's pretty much powerless when it's not winter, y'know what this means?

>>45019364
You kill her when she's weak.

>But I want to stick my dick inside her
Kill her first. You're putting your dick in a youkai anyway, you have no standards.

>>45013432
The plan could work as a back up plan in case you die, but considering someone like Marisa exists I'm not sure if throwing away your humanity like that seems suboptimal at the very least.
>Translations don't help matters either.
Agree, but the guy that suicided half a year ago being said to have died before Reimu was the shrine maiden seems more likely to be due to people getting their info from random posts than translation problems.

>That wasn't me, actually.
Sorry then, since I saw that post about using Gensokyo as an alternative to political discussion I thought we might have some raging /pol/tard or something.

Epstein is a funny comparison, since as you said it's kiiinda fitting, but at the same time ZUN completely seems to eradicate sex completely from his stories.

>>45017260
I really wish ZUN explained a tiny bit more about how magic works and stuff, not a completely logical system but just expanding a bit on stuff, but I guess this are the sort of questions he wants fans to ask themselves and make some fanworks about or something.
The theory that clicked with me the best is that believe is less important in other realms, sure you could argue that no one in Hell, Makai or the moon would ever question their powers since they already exist, but you could apply the same to the outside world.
And otherworlds following other rules might help with why there are no fairies outside world since those seem to not be believe dependant.

>>45017410
I don't know if just believe works since then stuff like pasta trees would have spawn to existence, radium would be healthy and cryptids could easily gather faith, heck unless electromagnetic waves and magic interfere with each others denser populations, camera recordings, telecommunications and globalization would only make believe magic be much more reliable and powerful, unless there is some sort of upper limit I guess.

>>45018101
I guess, Apollo on the other hand seems to have fallen.

On that note Heca's profile has this:
>In the first place, Hell would be unable to exist without the sun.
>Without strong light, the darkness of Hell would weaken too.
Which might be the closest to an answer we get to >>45017260. So maybe hell ends when the Sun ends?
Or is it more is it also applied to metaphorical light, but maybe it's better to not go full schizo.

>>45019364
That is what Akyuu recommends for doing to her, she can be pretty spiteful towards anything remotely fairy adjacent.

>>45019779
Patchy does say magic and science are essentially the same thing, which tracks imo. there's very little practical difference between using magic to shoot a projectile and using a gun.
Hermits also seem to exist in the outside world without any issue so I think magic is fine, just understudied and not well known about due to how autistic and reclusive magic users tend to be so they didn't end up sharing their teachings like great inventors or engineers did.

>>45019779
>I don't know if just believe works
I think it's about them being in the first place. I don't think it's about "believing something exists makes it real", it's more "something that does exist needs belief to keep doing so", a pasta tree does not exist in the first place so believing it exists does not make it real and radium is not healthy so believing it does won't make it so, meanwhile say yamabikos did exist so believing in them maintained their existence, but the discovery of sound waves back in the 1500s and education made people lose their belief in them and so they vanished from our world.

>heck unless electromagnetic waves and magic interfere with each others denser populations, camera recordings, telecommunications and globalization would only make believe magic be much more reliable and powerful
With the spread of technology and more importantly science+education, youkai, gods and everything else were already losing their powers to the point of non existence long before recordings were ever practical. Thinking in very general terms, most of what we see in Touhou was already being wiped from collective belief by the 18th century. They can still exist outside Gensokyo, Kanako and Suwako did so even if no one but Sanae could see them, but staying there means eventually disappearing as more and more people stop believing. The future we see with Renko and Maribel is a world where pretty much all non scientific belief has been wiped from collective belief, with of course a few people still believing, but maybe not truly. The Old Adam album has a bunch of supernatural believer meet to tell stories, but Merry seem to imply they're all making it up.
>Merry knew that her own mysterious experiences were undoubtedly truth.
>However, she was somehow unable to believe these other extravagant stories. They just seemed like they were trying to con people.
So it seems that even they don't truly believe, as even when they're seemingly shown an actual supernatural event (the mirror) they still later rationalize it (unless most people refers to the general populace as opposed to most of the people present)
>Most people probably assumed something of that level was just a magic trick, or a mirror that had that sort of function.
That's not to say cryptids are completely gone in the current day, some still seemingly subsist in the outside world, like the yeti (unless I'm somehow forgetting a yetihu), but as cryptids are elusive by nature, it's already hard to get a recording, chupacabra has already ended up in Gensokyo, so it seems most are on the verge. If I asked anyone if they really truly belived bigfoot existed, would the majority be able to say yes? Major religion gods seemingly still exist out of Gensokyo as belief in them is strong enough.
I kinda lost track of whatever you were saying and what I was replying to, but fuck if I'm not pressing post on this.

>>45019971
>Hermits also seem to exist in the outside world without any issue
I don't think that is true in present Gensokyo day, see pic related

>>45020323
About the old adam, I forgot about this line
> "The stories about the snakes and hair cult were true, by the way."
>"Really? I knew it! Those two stories weren't told anywhere near skillfully enough to be lies.
Oops... Well, still it's implied a lot of stories were told, but only two of them actually happened.

>>45019779
We don't know how special of a case Marisa is. Old lore seems to imply any random bozo could become a magician easily, but that seems unlikely nowadays.

>Agree, but the guy that suicided half a year ago being said to have died before Reimu was the shrine maiden seems more likely to be due to people getting their info from random posts than translation problems.
I don't remember ever reading about when exactly FT killed himself but I tended to assume pretty recently going by the manga. And it's been a while since I read all of FS.

>Sorry then, since I saw that post about using Gensokyo as an alternative to political discussion
Fuck no. At worst, like the Gaza example, it's trying to find ways to accurately describe what it would be like living in Gensokyo in terms people can easily understand.

>Epstein is a funny comparison, since as you said it's kiiinda fitting, but at the same time ZUN completely seems to eradicate sex completely from his stories.
I think even he realizes "Youkai rape outsiders before they eat them" would be going a bit too far.

>I guess, Apollo on the other hand seems to have fallen.
Didn't he get shot by that one Chinese archer?

>So maybe hell ends when the Sun ends?
Interestingly, hell in Christian mythology is defined by a absence of the light of god. Which sounds pretty similar.

>>45020323
It appears I am an idiot and was completely wrong, but not necessarily on the wrong track. Human do create youkai and gods just with just belief, but it's more about rationalizing what they don't know.
The radium example is really apt. It could be argued youkai are all born from phenomenas in general (if you really stretch the meaning of it, for example kitsunes was probably born from women playing men and vanishing.) Radium being healthy or unhealthy isn't a phenomena, but that feels like a cop out. A lot of SoPm talks about youkais exclusively as phenomenas, so that would be the answer it's give. Everyone did believe radium was healthy, so why wasn't it? Umumu... I'd be interested in hearing what other anons have to say.

>>45020424
半年前 half a year ago. Marisa also says how he was expelled from divination school(?) for mixing sorcery(魔術) in his divinations, which I wish I knew if it's just like magic(魔法) or if it has more implications, since Marisa's magic seems "neutral" while others like Seiga's magic seems shady to say the least.
He seemed to already have some access to magic, so as said, decent plan B in case you die, otherwise seems completely unnecessary, unless there are some weird requisites for magic or his magic is a completely different thing or whatever other reason ZUN wont expand on.

>Fuck no
Okay, glad if it's only use of metaphors then.
> a bit too far.
True
>Didn't he get shot by that one Chinese archer?
Yes, that's what I implied... One of the few explicitly named character that got killed in Touhou I think. Although maybe that didn't kill him.
>Interestingly, hell in Christian mythology is defined by a absence of the light of god
Most afterlives seem to go underground so most agree on that I guess at best you get fire which unlike sun or thunder, is more likely associated with "the bad guys" or at the very least wrath/anger.
I also wonder if it has something to do with the 3 lights(sun, moon, star) but I don't know when was the last time those where mentioned aside from the fairies of light.

>>45020424
That's kind of funny, since we know there's an evil kami who is venus, is the morning star, is satan. So Satan's physical location is actually second closest to the sun in touhou.
The sun which is frequently associated with god in real life.
Maybe she's on the planets dark side?

>>45016895
>wriggle
fireflies eat plants and other fireflies at most

>>45020323
The spread of science and education is a bit paradoxical since it seems that if something already exists due to belief the scientific thing to do would be to investigate it, it would be a bit like if the following rule applied to reality:
If no one believes in bears they'll cease to exist.
I think we would still have bears.
Some youkai being just things like magic using animals could also make it harder for them to disappear.
So I'll just comment how that's odd, especially if youkai hunting and such existed.
Unless youkai hunters were so good that people stopped believing in them somehow? dunno
>spoiler
Happens sometimes, thoughts can be very chaotic.

>>45020780
Well, I also forgot about that... glad you point this out.
I'll have to think about the radium thing since I don't have le Rinnosuke level of making connections.
Might be related to the getting a name making it loose it's powers like the dinosaur bones, but gods have names, so...
Maybe it's easier if we think about UFOs? I'm also a bit at a loss here honestly.

>>45021063
I'll have to take a look at that part, I don't even remember if it was in the morning or in the evening.
The morning star, is also "associated" with someone else:
Jesus in Revelation 22:13
Which is an odd little thing which I guess might be a bit off topic, since probably for demons and vampires in Touhou I'll be better off reading Jojos, Sarai and playing megaten.

>>45021442
I know but satan and that one Kami are the only ones mentioned, it's in one of the nature deity mangas.

>>45021657
Went through those two chapters and they mention only 明星 and 金星 aside from the kami's name.
Both seem to refer to Venus, but I wouldn't count any of them as to mentioning Venu(deity) nor Satan.
So explicitly only Amono Kagaseo no Mikoto is mentioned.

>>45021442
>Maybe it's easier if we think about UFOs?
Aliens are specifically adressed in SoPm, but it's not specified whetever they do exist in the end or not because of their belief seemingly not. (I included most of the conversation because it could be relevant for something else)

Looking a bit into it radium was thought to be healthy because the Curies published a paper that said radium eliminated tumor cells faster than normal cells, so it wasn't supposedly entierely unfounded as in they didn't just decide radium was good for you with no basis, they concluded it was healthy.
But this is just the case here, I'm sure there's something else that could be thought off where people just assumed it was healthy when it wasn't, and I highly doubt the general populace knew more than the papers telling them it was good for you. If we get that "logically arrived at thinking it's healthy (even if wrong)" out of the way, I think the only distinction can lie in the use of phenomenon and more importantly the fact that humans first attributed the origins of these phenomenons to youkai.
A good example is Yamame, more importantly her power of manipulating infectious diseases. Even a long time ago people understood some mechanics of sicknesses, at least that it could pass between people, as something akin to quarantines was already mentioned in the bible (supposedly, wouldn't be able to confirm), and the word quarantine itself was coined after the black death. They may have understood how you'd catch it (other people, rats...) but they didn't understand what was truly happening at the molecular level (the first germ theory was in the 1500s but wasn't properly developped until the 1700s) or how plagues really started (why did this particular village start getting sick all of a sudden?! AIIIE it's youkais!!!), so they blamed the origin of diseases on other things. Japan blamed... well not tsuchigomos unfortunately for this theory, but anyway, they blamed whatever youkai, giving birth to that youkai.
While youkai did exist and seemingly all legends about them were true, scientific theories developped in parallel of those can coexist with this, the two do not necesarrily contradict each other (an earthquake happening because of tectonic plate and because of namazu or even tenshi can coexist), but if the tectonic plates theory was taught more than the namazu, or keystones or whatever legends and so on, those legends would eventually be forgotten or at the very least belived to have been made up, the result is the same though, loss of faith.
Youkai were already getting supressed pretty hard by 1885 considering how the barrier came to be (see following quotes from PMiSS), and it's around the time Japan started learning a lot from other countries scientifically so they started denying youkai existence by then. Onis had already long fucked off to their own world too, so belief or no belief, there were no onis more for scientists to investigate in their particular case. To go back to disease, the origin could be youkai or germs, but the germ theory took hold as no one could observe whatever youkai was spreading them probably because for the years before Gensokyo came to be, they were highly supressed near the point of extinction, and that was only made worse by the germ theory spreading.
>3: In the time of Aya, the eighth Are Maiden, the power of the youkai of Gensokyo was weakening, and humans outside began to deny their existence, so they were already on the brink of collapse.
>The project refers to a plan designed and implemented by Yukari in order to restore power to the youkai of Gensokyo, who felt pressured by the increase in the human population. [...] By establishing Gensokyo as an illusionary world, and the outside as the real world, the youkai weakened by the outside world would naturally flock to Gensokyo; this was a truly epochal event. (so it even refers to youkai outside of Gensokyo, second note the plan was started "over 500 years" before PMiSS, so youkais were already weak before the 1500s)
>However, since several hundred years ago, the number of oni has decreased little by little, and from the time the great barrier was built, they no longer show themselves anywhere in Gensokyo.
More importantly, youkais are fueled by fear rather than belief, a scientific explanation as to why scary things like earthquake, diseases and other phenomenon happen would certainly reduce the fear of these youkai and the like and thus make them even weaker/rarer.
(continued in next post I just found something relevant)
(also I once again lost track of what the fuck I've been talking about, I've pretty much been writing this since you replied)

>>45023304
There's these lines from Byakuren from SoPM talking about another youkai which should in theory still be fine in the outside world, tengus
SoPM did come out a few months before FS, and I am long removed from when I read it or WaHH so I wouldn't be surprised if there's important info in those I forgot about that might contradict everything I said. I'd like to hear about it if there is.

To reuse the bear example, I think the logic would be more of a:
There are huge scratch mark on trees
What the fuck, it's must be some HUGE youkai! (HUGE tree scratching youkai is born)
Let's fucking kill those HUGE youkai!
Years pass
Actually, here's documented evidence of bears have been doing those scratch mark, we couldn't find any HUGE youkais though.
Oh, is that what it was...? Grandpa did say he killed some HUGE youkai back when he was younger, but maybe it was just a huge bear? (HUGE youkai starts being less feared as people assume it's bears)
Cryptids would fit the bear example better, but they are seperate from youkai so they work differently, they're very elusive and it's a case of just not being able to prove something doesn't exist.

Also youkai hunting and the like were recorded, it's all the legends we have and know about, but they've been long discarded as well legends to us and while I wouldn't know for Japan, it'd certainly fit around the Meiji era, while they are supposed to be true facts of things that happened.

>>45023310
I think that makes sense. I tend to assume a lot of the decline of Youkai was caused by humans just straight up killing them. Just look at what they did with poor Suika or Nue.

>>45023304
>>45023310
People not believing Kanako performing a miracle of them and not believing is a bit funny, but I've seen people refuse empirical evidence in favor of common sense easily(also the opposite tho), but Kanako's wording about just believing they are real is enough, seems to put Touhou's "thoughtforms" into less maintenance costly than I thought, but it might be an overstatement on her part.

I guess It could make sense with the both are real thing, but the one requiring believe fading away,
>More importantly, youkais are fueled by fear rather than belief, a scientific explanation as to why scary things like earthquake, diseases and other phenomenon
I guess that could easily have set a cycle of them getting weaker and losing more power due to being less feared due to being less powerful and so on.
I think that they might need more than fear, I thought that maybe both fear and believe or specific fear to them, more than to the phenomenon.
Also I guess hell Youkai follow different rules since we got this from Kisune's article:
>Well, I suppose it was an act by the youkai of the underground. Since their powers come from the negative energy of humans, maybe she wanted to scare humans who had become too peace-addled.
It's though a quote of Yukari in a Bunbunmaru article, which sounds really shady when I write it down.
But that could also explain a bit the whole thing with hell, kinda if youkai are different although negative energy of humans is probably the most reliable food source there is for youkai, makes me wonder why they didn't change to that, or if it's due to hell having different rules.

The parts about the barrier in PMiSS made me wonder a lot of things, like if Gensokyo actually helped youkai disappearance since they were all drawn there instead of trying to fight back, since it also says that there was opposition to the plan and conflict between youkais, guess that could also have helped to fade from human belief.
It's also a bit weird since Aya being the 8th maiden means she was born 100-120 years before Akyuu, but I guess that that was just the last barriers and around 500 years was the first one.

The bear example makes sense, sadly how they were exactly born is still a bit of a mystery aside from Kaguya telling scarlet team that the moon made some of the humans "monsters" but that could just be meant for vampires and such.

I guess that explains how youkai and gods vanished, magic used by humans going away might be explained by Gensokyou and other worlds having more magic development since Akyuu said that magicians in Gensoukyou can be young but that they are usually aged.

>(also I once again lost track of what the fuck I've been talking about, I've pretty much been writing this since you replied)
Yeah, sometimes times flies when making posts like this, and having to check info, finding something unexpected and having to rewrite the post... and so on
I appreciate the effort posting, when mentioning the forgetting about things that became real the answers usually are more like
>Well it's just what happened ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Which is precisely the sort of behavior which would fuel believe based magic, but stuff like the radium being wrong reasoning but still different reasoning thus not feeding any magical being makes more sense.

I'll also have to recheck WaHH, and maybe take notes if something interesting is mentioned and in what chapter since rechecking info in manga's is a bit harder than the rest of stuff.

>>45025376
I think that Nue and Oni had no phenomena associated with them, they were more of the "just fucking kills people" type of youkai, maybe that's why ZUN made oni retire before faith decline.