/jp/ - Otaku Culture

>>4495480

And Then There Were None: Umineko, the book.

>>4495478
FUCK. OFF. STOP SPAMMING WWW. @ñòｎTAIｋ .COM YOU DUMB SHITS AND PAY SYSOP THE MONEY YOU OWE HIM

>>4495480
>agathainfunnyhat.jpg

Fascinating.

Fags learned about one famous novel that does not follow rules a faggot decided to use determine the workings of the mystery genre and now parade with it, thinking it's brilliant to spot it.

>>4495539
Umineko invented mystery.

>>4495539
Umineko is the best mystery I read. I wish more modern mysteries would take hints from it.

>>4495539
Umineko is the beginning and the end of the mystery genre.

>>4495557
Sounds like you read a lot.

>>4495574
I've read And Then There Were None, and I have some of The Hardy Boys books.

>>4495539
What are you talking about I can't understand what you just said so please forgive me and good bye

>>4495557
>>4495562
One is an obvious joke, but the other worries me.

>>4495557
>modern mysteries

The mystery genre died along with Agatha Christie. Umineko is probably good because it reuses the murders from the good ones and exaggerates it alot.

>>4495526
>>4495503
>>4495480

You now realize they look alike.

>>4495624
The problem is not using the actualy mystery circumstances, it's how you present the story and characters. Not to mention the focus and narrative.
Umineko can hardly be classified as a mystery in the first place, let's not even touch quality.

Read Christie books OTHER than "And Then There Were None".

>>4495641
Even if they were SUPPOSED to, it's RO7 art.
So...

>>4495650
Protagonist is the murderer in The Murder of Roger Ackroyd.

>>4495647
But if you were to take out the fantasy elements with the meta world and all, it's a great mystery. The murders that occurred in each episodes were unique and interesting. More so when you consider the culprit is the same person. There's enough humor in it to get you attached to the characters. And the next thing you know, the whole lot ends up dead.

>>4495650
I read the Poirot books only

>>4495671
>But if you were to take out the fantasy elements with the meta world and all, it's a great mystery.
Sad part is, I think you are right. If there was no romance meta shit, or at the very least a smaller amount of it, it would have the potential of being a truly memorable mystery story.

At this point though, it's hopelessly convoluted, far too much shit going on at once.

>>4495671
No, it's not.
That's the problem.
It's subpar closed room sequences that are not even examined properly from a character's perspective, and to make it interesting, you get limitations, observations etc from a meta-perspective.
The greater part of the humor is either not really funny or out of place.

A single culprit fucking up his own murders 4 or so different times does not make it interesting.

>>4495624
I just really like the various mysteries in it. The way the crimes are carried out, who the culprit is, and the way you get attached to the characters amongst other things. In other mysteries I've read, I don't usually care about the culprit as a character, nor are their motives usually that interesting. And the crimes themselves aren't usually that interesting.

>>4495650
I've got another one of her books with the Poirot guy, I haven't read much of it yet though.

How was "A Murder is Announced" lol body double plot twist end not an infrigment to Knox' rules?
The whydunnit was horrible, what clues where there showing that the real Blacklock's supposedly dead sister was actually the present Blacklock commiting the murders?

/jp/ - Literature

>>4495700
Do not judge mysteries by whether they follow a set of rules by a fag who thought his statements could apply to all stories to determine if a story is a proper mystery.
Just the story on it;s own merits.

Umineko EP1 is downright plagiarism.
Umineko is way too overrated.

>>4495683
But the murders will always be explained in the end. It's still a mystery. And I thought the fantasy elements were great. Instead of using the standard kind of foreshadowing, he chose to use the fantasy battles as hints to what may have really happened. Not to forget the music and the whole coaster ride that happens during those scene. Just when you think a character ended up doing something cool, you find out that it didn't happen at all

Wait what?

FUCK YOU UMINEKO

I'M TIRED OF THIS META BULLSHIT

JUST TELL THE FUCKING STORY STRAIGHT OR GET OUT.

Who the fuck cares about rules when the book is fun to read?
As long as it doesn't get too stupid, of course.

>>4495706
It's a great mystery story. But it wasn't good detective fiction. The kind where the reader is given a fair chance at solving it before the detective.

>>4495683
>>4495671
>But if you were to take out the fantasy elements with the meta world and all

No. Stop. You can't do that. It defeats the entire purpose of the story. Umineko is not just a mystery story, even if you'd like it to be. There are more important themes present. Hell, it's more of a meta on the mystery genre than anything else.

>>4495687
>A single culprit fucking up his own murders 4 or so different times does not make it interesting.
How was it fucking up when he doesn't get caught.

>It's subpar closed room sequences that are not even examined properly from a character's perspective
That's what the red truth is for during the earlier episodes. Battler was doing the observation from asking questions. He didn't do a good job as a detective role though. But that's probably because he's a Watson. He gets mislead often

I just know we're going to get some fucked up cop-out like BRAIN PARASITES again.

>>4495729
No one said anything about taking it out because it wasn't good. If you were to look at it without the fantasy parts, it's still good mystery material. And I'm sure the murders belong to the mystery genre. It's the relationship between Battler and Beatrice that takes it to fantasy. And when you combine those two elements, you get a unique idea that's never done before.

>>4495760
Sub-orbital laser platform. You heard it here first.

>>4495738
>But that's probably because he's a Watson.
>"Ever wondered if Watson tried to be a real detective?"

>>No Chinaman must figure in the story.

Yeah that's an important one for modern detective fiction.

>>4495738
Watson is quite a smart, courageous and determined person.
Battler wishes he was Watson.

>>4495839
Battler is all that plus ignorant and over emotional.

>>4496150
Determined, he is not.
Became a pussy because of pussy.
As for smart...yeah.

>>4495839
>courageous and determined

He held out well despite being forced to participate in a battle of wits over and over again. He still came out of it with a smile and what not even after witnessing all the crazy things in the meta world. After Ange's death, he didn't even have the time to mourn and had to prepare for battle straightaway

>>4496245
He does not deal with most of the shit that happens well, unless crying after every second debate is 'handling it well'. He is whiny much more often than he is not.

The original Knox's 9th was dedicated to the Watson Character though, and it describes Watson as having a level of intelligence that is just below the average leader.

>Original Knox's 9th: The stupid friend of the detective, the Watson, must not conceal from the reader any thoughts which pass through his mind: his intelligence must be slightly, but very slightly, below that of the average reader.

>>4496325
Wasn't the Watson of the Holmes tales actually fairly intelligent, though?

WHAT ARE YOU FAGGOTS TALKING ABOUT BATTLER IS A GENIUS

JUST LOOK AT THAT, HE EVEN KNOWS HOW TO READ

>>4496343
MANGA DOES NOT COUNT

>>4496331
He was fairly intelligent, but he's not the character who particularly remembered things very well. He wasn't stupid, but he was the kind of guy who took notes and made suggestions. Holmes always scoffed at him when he asked questions about the motive of the culprit, which he wasn't particularly good at figuring out. In one Holmes mystery the murder weapon actually turned out to be a poisonous snake and Watson never even thought about it he was still suspecting the Gypsy people who were camped outside.

>>4496348

>>4496253

Rroughly 50% of soldiers who take part in any kind of combat suffer from some kind of disorder as a result. The stress of simply having your life at risk can seriously fuck a person up.

Battler has been tortured, killed, and revived dozens of times, repeatedly watched his family be tortured and murdered, and is constantly the victim of psychological warfare, being put into situations to make him paranoid, afraid, and feel helpless.

Most people would be a sniveling wreck after a tenth of what Battler has been through. And after all is said and done, he is not only sane, but humane. He stands by his principles as much as he can, protecting those can't defend themselves even when they have treated him with nothing but evil.

Battler's virtue isn't intelligence (though he seems smart enough), per se, but resilience.

What we know of torture experiments (that would never be approved in modern psych) suggests that people of Battler's character and mental fortitude are statistically non-existent.

Maybe one in ten thousand, maybe one in a hundred thousand, or maybe literally nonexistent.

Cite: Galotti, K. M. (2006). Cognitive psychology. Thompson Wadsworth.

That's right, I just cited something on 4chan.

>>4496346
HE DOESN'T READ MANGA

HE READS ONE WITCH TWO WITCH RED TEXT BLUE TEXT

IT'S A VERY STRUCTURALLY COMPLEX AND THOUGHT-PROVOKING STORY

>>4496373
He read Higurashi.

>>4496371
Except he survives teh first time, and he knows that after that, being the META world, he only vanishes if he wishes so.
Putting real world circumstances and psyche in META is retarded.

>>4496378
Real people suffer mental breakdowns just from knowing someone is trying to kill them.

We think we're tough because the vast majority of us are never in a situation where we really suffer or where our lives are genuinely in danger.

Real people, more often than not, crack like twigs under pressure.

>>4496378
And of course, your opinion about how META psychology works, being based on absolutely nothing, is much better than a position based on analogy to real psychology.

>>4496400
Good think he is a fictional character in a MAGICAL setting within fiction already.
We do not see Piece battler showing astounding resilience in the face of evisceration or whatever.
And even if we grant Battler that he is an effective meatshield, that is it.

>>4496412
I do not claim knowledge on how it works, I claim it's retarded to even think anything remotely 'real world' should be applied.

>>4496373
That's a damn good book.

Umineko is a giant mess of aesthetic hypotheses and metaphysical deductions.

>>4496418

Fiction follows reality unless stated otherwise. Since it's never been explained how the Meta world works, it's reasonable to assume that the torture that Battler experienced, was torturous.

So yes, we should grant that he is resilient.

>>4496471

Battler is clearly a masochist and add the fact that he was being tortured by hot busty nee-chans you can bet he had a boner the entire time.

>>4496481
I doubt he only had a boner during that.

>>4496471
Fiction within fiction where it's obvious it does not follows reality should be a different cookie.
>>4496481
Obviously.

>>4496490
NOW I HAVE A BONER OF MY SWORD.

>>4496471
Unless of course all of the meta characters don't really exist. Which would mean the torture never happened and Ryukishi was just trolling you.

>>4496530
We work on the assumption 'there is a fucking point to the meta world'

>>4496490
DEM THIGHS
DEM FEET
DAT TROLLFACE
PERFECTION

>>4496537

yeah I know that's the anti fantasy perspective talking. Clearly by episode 4 though we know that Peice Battler and Meta Battler have very different perspectives. Unlike Higurashi a memory recall of the previous games has been ruled out. So we should assume the Battler on gameboard is not influenced by those things.

And frankly we don't know if the psyche works the same way in the meta universe as it does in the real world. For all we know torture in the meta world could be a metaphor for being forced to stop thinking.

Though if your looking for something to compare them to. I guess you could look at the meta world like the subconscious mind and the real world as conscious mind.