/jp/ - Otaku Culture

>>44409584
https://dynasty-scans.com/chapters/kaminare
THIS PIECE OF SHIT

>>44409624
>everyone "accepts" the death of the boy
How quick do you think Reimu would have shut down the Moyira Shrine if it was Marisa being chopped up.

>>44409624
Kaminare and Hungry Tiger is definitely at the bottom of the barrel as far as Zounose's stuff goes, and this coming from someone who loves reading his work.
It just feels so... classless.

>>44409624

It is as creepy as KKHTA.

>>44415535
Zounose's human eating yokai is such a reoccurring plotline it is more lame than funny. Since he is 90% serious about it.
KKHTA (especially the baby eating chapter), or its spiritual successor, Touhou Grotesque Land , is more on topic in this case.

https://danbooru.donmai.us/pools/7002

>>44409624
Kek, I love how this one triggers so many people.

>>44409624
So the moral is that we need to make human sacrifices common in this world so that they won't become a thing in Gensokyo...

>>44416348
I hate how this was supposed to be a "what if le cringe self insert came to a gensokyo that is ACKSHUALLY like how it is in canon!!" Yet a lot of the shit that happens there doesnt make sense at all. And the series also caused a lot of hate against self insert fanfics, which is why theres way less now.

>>44416348
I bet he felt really smart when he did this

>>44415314
Reimu will dispose of Marisa at the drop of a hat when she finally becomes a yokai

>>44420441
So you say.

>>44409624
I know "sanae eats a little boy up" is a popular trope but this is a interesting take

>>44409624
There's way too much of a logical gap in understanding why Sanae suddenly gave up and accepted the ritual. The only conclusion I can possibly draw is that, as a woman, she cared more about how she felt about the ritual made her feel than the fact it was happening, and so simply accepted it after she was able to vent her feelings out alongside Keine.

>>44419702
The gall of calling it deconstruction fic too. I blame Madoka for making people think deconstruct = making it edgier.

>>44409584
Not exactly a doujin, but if anyone wants a fanfic about the Outside World annihilating the fuck out of Gensokyo...
https://archiveofourown.org/works/13295082?view_adult=true

this does have yukari/eirin ship plus a "it's all dream ending" unfortunately

>>44419702
To be fair it was relying on mostly incomplete canon compared to today's stuff
also the only thing that really holds back self-insert Touhou fics is that
>the writer either doesn't get the setting or the character of the girls
>the writer has no idea how to write themselves/an character based on themselves
combine both and you end up with wish fulfillment disaster, but if you're competent it turns into a nice fairy tale

>>44409624
this guy fucking sucks, I kept on giving his works a chance because I actually quite like his artstyle but his writing is just beyond saving, what a waste

>>44422010
So when do you decide he wasn't worth it?

>>44421907
I enjoyed reading it even though the ending ruined it. It would have been almost perfect without the ending.
Total Youkai Death.

>>44409624
Hot

>>44422348

Gensokyo has fallen. Billions must cry.

>>44409624
In a way it's funny that this has become his defining doujin, because nothing that comes afterwards ever reached this level of dumb edge.

>>44415535
Oh wait Uetora comes close. Though I'm not sure which got released first.

Is zounose's work potrayal of gensokyo accurate to touhou's actual canon? Or if it isnt, what things make it different from it?

this is probably posted too much, but koishi's heart throbbing adventure
i'm wondering if theres anything else out there involving koishi aswell, anything she's involved with seems bound to be weird

>>44415535
Kaminare is fucking KINO, Hungry Tiger is just boring but so is Shou Toramaru in general. Even Zounose couldn't salvage that lame, boring-ass character.

>>44423934
>Is zounose's work potrayal of gensokyo accurate to touhou's actual canon?

People cry about "BUT LE ZOUNOSE IS EDGY AND LE CANNIBALISM IS OVERDONE!!!1" but these posers don't realize it's the logical conclusion of the official lore. Like in EoSD Rumia and Chyna are implied that they eat humans, Zounose just shows how they do it. Remilia and Flan are called vampires in the games, Zounose just shows them doing vampire things.

>>44424007
I love this doofus

Sumireko cockroaches doujin

>>44423934
No, the doujins are a lot more edgy

>>44419702
>to a gensokyo that is ACKSHUALLY like how it is in canon!!
The point of DitR is that it's nothing like canon Touhou: the creator said so.

>>44423934
I scoff at the idea of any fanwork being accurate to canon. Feels like you're kinda missing the point of making a fanwork to begin with. Granted in-name only fanwork isn't any better; there's a fine line between being creative and throwing whatever shit you got onto paper.
But I digress.

No he's not. The most glaring thing with Zounose is that he exaggerates the non-human trait of a character, often to a ridiculous degree.
Where else can you see Suwako going full crazy curse goddess just because her omake states she controls the Mishaguji.

>>44424164
what a wide range of expressions the artist gave her, i love this shit
do you know if the artist made anything other than that web series, like doujins

>>44424834
On second thought that didn't come out right.
There's nothing wrong if you want to be accurate to canon, just don't let it restraint your creativity when making fanworks. Overthinking is the mind's killer.

>>44424129
>>44423934
Not on the over-the-fucking-top scale on which Zounose depicts it.

>Akyuu gets executed for her reincarnation to work
>Reimu Hakurei and the rest of the human protagonists casually watched an outsider get chopped up at her party
>Sages distribute cans of human meat to all youkai
>Humans sacrifice a villager every 8 years. This is celebrated amongst tengu
>fucking baby paste at myouren temple
>There's enough corpses for Sekibanki to get a new body
>Sekibanki can casually transfer to a new body even though Zounose established that that Seki is based on her body while her heads are disposable
>Eika deliberately keeps children's souls in soul stacking purgatory (to be fair, this isn't too much of a stretch but what the fuck was that battle and how was she able to just puppeteer them)

There's probably more but that's what I could pull off the top of my head. Point is, Zounose goes way too fucking hard on the grimdark aspect to the point where it isn't shocking - it's loathsome. Maybe that is what Zounose wants of the audience; for them to roll their eyes at the atrocities that unfold, desensitised to depicted human suffering - to the point where the lighter shenanigans are more interesting. I just can't see it being taken seriously with how he puts it.

zounose got pretty bussin art tho no cap fr fr

>>44421399
kek

>>44421551
It's simpler - it's about a designated dark desires ritual to vent out society's tensions (especially tensions between human cattle and youkai) by concentrating them onto some sacrificial lamb, then bonding over the denied guilt over the crime over the sacrificial lamb, and then pretending nothing happened later and the society is all noble and civil.
It's common in modern real societies still, like the bullying that gets ignored until it becomes some mass shootings or whatever.
I doubt zounose thought that far, he was just playing with themes of "duty to collective traditions is more important than personal feelings" on surface fascination level with no nuance nor extrapolation whatsoever.

>>44409584
why this shit reeks of mexishit?

>>44426479
i think its intentional, OP wants gore to the poin tits cringey

>>44424546
Is that before or after he claimed ditr was some deconstruction of self insert fics.

>>44421551
Refusing the ritual would distance her from Kanako and Suwako, and the normal villagers participating in it too gave it a sense of necessity as well, rather than some meaningless event, so that pushed her towards it as well.

>>44409624
Its so hilariously edgy I don't understand how people don't like it.

>>44424971
Yeah Zounose goes pretty edgy with his depiction of Gensokyo. I did like the books for UM, which were surprisingly wholesome and lacking on the cannibalism front.

>>44424971
zounose is so weird because he can do pretty great comedy doujins and half the time they have more engaging plots than his grimdark shit which is basically the same plot of 'youkai eat humans and the humans are just okay with it for some reason'

>>44424851
I distinctly remember them drawing a short higurashi comic about hanyuu revealing herself as a manipulating bitch but that's it. They also used to make some kkhta-related artworks but unless i'm wrong, they've been in radio silence for years now and the series still doesn't have a proper ending.

It's a shame because i've always thought their artstyle had that 'badly-drawn cuteness' (especially in early kkhta) charm, a bit similar to early zun art.

>>44427689
Ah i remember this gag, definitely up there with the foot wine from the SDM.

>>44427642
>>44427689
That's why the grimdark is a detriment 90% of the time in Zounose. It does work sometimes - for example, Goldfish Bowl was pretty good - but more often than not, it just comes off as a pathetic attempt at shocking the reader.

>Maybe that is what Zounose wants of the audience; for them to roll their eyes at the atrocities that unfold

Of course, my point above about "normalising grimdark" could be a statement on how the protagonists view Gensokyo. Since they are responsible for its upkeep and because they have the responsibility and the power to ensure Gensokyo doesn't destroy itself, the protagonists (reimu) aren't as subject to the horrors that occur to the outsiders and the villagers. In other words, they are generally safe from the youkai because of their power as they enforce Gensokyo's staus quo. The audience is also safe, just like the protagonist, but they are direct witnesses to the horror. It doesn't affect the protagonists, so why would they care? So, Zounose clearly wants us to not care as well. Perhaps that is why the disturbing aspects are so prevalent. They are nothing more than a background.

but chances are zounose is a mf retard that can't write fo shit and can't think that far imo considering banbanbanki and marshmallow sumireko i guess

>>44427689
>for some reason
You gotta give him credit that it's realistic - Gebsokyo humans are meek doormat cattle just like humans IRL

>>44427051
>On the other hand, I don't want Touhou fans turning on Touhou because of something I made. I'm a huge Touhou fan: I wouldn't have made this film if it weren't for that. When Random Numbers told me his experience, leaving a comment on the video, "This video made me question why I liked Touhou," I summed up my response as thus, "You like Touhou because Touhou is NOTHING like this." It's true: even in Symposium of Post-Mysticism, where Marisa and Akyuu explore Gensokyo's political depths, or even in Hopeless Masquerade, it's all done in whimsical and lighthearted fashion.

>>44429359
they're not, though
it's well established that the human village is off limits to all youkai; they're not allowed to attack any of them
outsiders are the only ones they can eat, and yukari makes reference to the fact that gensokyo is getting enough food to feed all of the youkai from somewhere, implying that she's bringing in outsiders
you can frighten humans, but it always seems strange to me when zounose does the human village stuff

>>44429413
Not to mention in forbidden scrollery it's confirmed the SDM has outside world contacts, so they probably get their own humans through there.
Not to mention non-man eating Youkai like the rabbits.

>>44428238
I quite like Moriya-sama because I always like the weird memory editing stories and it isn't all that grimdark, since there's basically no real references to eating humans in it, so it feels like a comfortable level

>>44429413
>the human village is off limits to all youkai; they're not allowed to attack any of them
That's set by non-humans and maybe the 3.5 human 2hus depending on how you look at it
So this doesn't make human cattle any more influential

>>44429575
It depends how you look at it, the Youkai are completely dependent on the superstition, beliefs, and fear of the human village in order to sustain themselves, so from a certain perspective the humans hold all the real power, but since conflicting with the youkai isn't good for them they allow themselves to be exploited in order to maintain their position.
So the Youkai jockey for power over the village but can't risk damaging it, in fact as of Foul Detective Satori, Mizuchi notes how interconnected the human village and Youkai actually are.
The lives of the humans in return for sustaining the Youkai are mostly peaceful and protected from any real danger, sure they live rurally and aren't very technologically advanced, but in return they maintain a level of health and safety they wouldn't be able too other wise, not to mention they are mainly left to self regulate.
With the only cases of Reimu or the Sages actively intervening in their affairs being when a human attempts to or successfully transforms them self into a Youkai, so other than that they're pretty free to do as they please.

>>44409584
There is this one artist named Harasaki, but just know that once you see these, there's no going back. You've been warned.

>>44430319
kek

>>44428238
>Goldfish Bowl
How is that grimdark.

>>44416348
I gave it a shot since I liked walfas at the time. Watched through the first episode and half of the second and dropped it then. I was not going to stick around for 2 hours of that shit. The author was clearly taking the piss when the protagonist is written as both an unapologetic douche and a complete retard. This is a throwaway character in any other story, and tbqh should have just ended with getting eaten by Rumia.

>>44430319
>looking up this guy's work
>mortal kombat-like fatalities with touhou characters

jesus CHRIST.

>>44431429
this is a married woman with a child
she once posted a picture where she covered her face with hecatia's face and her child's face with clownpiece
she also once did a doujin where the LoLK protagonists used shady drugs, turned into zombies, infected the entire sea of tranquility, then murder raped clownpiece with their zombie futa cocks including memorable scenes like them fucking her eye socket

>>44431451
Eh, married women are scary?
Why did nobody ever warn me?

>>44431429
It gets worse, just wait until you see the squeal to the Koishi and Satori Doujin.

>>44431451
People who post their kids on horny accounts like that are the worst. I've bumped into a few pictures of a guy's kid on his Twitter where he posts R18 pics weekly. Ffs just have a private account for your family/home life or something, you can dump all your McDonald's screenshots and the pics from the time you went to an amusement park by yourself

>>44409584
https://dynasty-scans.com/chapters/my_very_own_magic_my_very_own_me
Starts out decent, then Yukari shows up to talk to Marisa and it becomes comically edgy. It isn't good, but it is entertaining.

>>44431451
lmao. Do you have it?

>>44409584
I liked "No one left to ask for me", but that's mainly because I enjoyed the ending, "Broken Charm" was nice as well. Both quite dark.
I like stories that touch upon Reimu killing people who turn into Youkai, if anybody has any other stories with this theme I'd appreciate the recommendation.

It's not super dark but the immortals dealing with and overcoming their immortality at the end of the Earth/universe is a fun subject that gets dark at some points.

>>44431758
didn't see that one but honestly i've already seen enough, she's drawn a page of touhou characters killing themselves and one of them was shinmyoumaru increasing the size of her own intestines with the mallets and that made me sick

>>44431418
>the protagonist is written as both an unapologetic douche and a complete retard
That was the point, at least in the first half.

>>44438197
I can't find the Shinmy one. Can you link it?

>>44441290
https://lector.patyscans.com/read/harasaki/es/0/1/page/31
knock yourself out friend and thanks for making me look at it again

>>44438197
What about Shinmy killed by a rhinoceros beetle?

>>44424971
>Reimu Hakurei and the rest of the human protagonists casually watched an outsider get chopped up at her party
To be fair this one is accurate to canon

>>44443338
grimshit isn't canon. stop pretending that it is.

>>44443338
>accurate
>canon
I'm sorry? Please point to any scene where Outsiders are killed on Hakurei Shrine ground while Reimu is fully aware of said kill occurring. I beg of you.

>>44430835
Whoops, now I have read it again, I must have mistaken it for another piece.

>>44409584
https://mangadex.org/title/bc723da2-c80b-4933-bb60-11ab4d34f727/touhou-water-mirror
it peaks tere

>>44431927
Bro, I love that one...

>>44416348
Arguably the worst touhou fan work ever

>>44443371
>>44444033
Dolls in Pseudo Paradise shows Reimu's apathy of outsiders getting chowed on by youkai.

>>44444671
that's not even reimu

>>44444671
Dolls of pseudo paradise is dubiously cannon, it being the only CD story to have been replaced, with a comiket 62 and 63 version.
Some things also don't line up with cannon, like the abandoned westerns style mansion(which might be the SDM), the Pierrot having the Hourai branch, the odd behavior of the shrine maiden(dancing in the pouring rain above the misty lake), the shrine maiden is also mentioned to be blonde in the commentary of U.N Owen was Her.
Zun did draw a blonde shrine maiden in 2001, so it might be her. But the most odd possibility is that shrine maiden was Flan dressing up as Reimu, since she is the titular U.N Owen ad shares blond, red, and white as prominent colors.

But if she is the shrine maiden in question, the context between the two events is different, in DoPP she is aware of the death's of the men, but doesn't see them die, doesn't see them eaten in front of her, and can't be held responsible for their deaths.
In Symposium of Post Mysticism, Miko says her strongest desire is a peace she does not have to kill to maintain, not to mention in forbidden scrollery she's visibley affected by having to kill the owner of the salt mansion who was becoming a Youkai, even tough he was a horse killer.

>>44444847
it can't be flan, surely? since running water is a weakness to vampires and patchouli summoned a storm around the mansion in EoSD's extra to stop her from getting outside
it being one of the hourai shoujo (as far as I'm aware, that's the collective name for the girls ZUN drew between MS and EoSD who weren't specifically reimu or marisa) makes the most sense

>>44409624
Why the fuck do they need to touch the villagers when they can grab any outsiders that stumbled there? Tengu's influence only reaches the mountain area anyway, dafuq would they do if the humans don't give them offerings, attack the village and anger the other youkai factions and then disappear anyway because no one believed in them anymore? The only faction in Gensokyo that gets human 'offerings' are the vampires and the youkai themselves do the offering. This is coming from someone who likes to read Harasaki and yassy's works, which I usually don't mind because they don't try to put logic or morality in there and know me and the other readers just want to see fucked up shit. This one tried so hard to justify stupid shit and failed to do so anyway

>>44441843
thanks. that was... interesting...

>>44445064
The only justification is that the tengu gaslit the village into believing they have to sacrifice or else there would be consequences, but there's no indication of that so it makes the villagers look awful.

>>44445141
Even the gaslit point is hard to make sense when they are like a dozen of other youkai factions in Gensokyo and only the vampires get special treatment, and they need to run amok to get that privilege, unless other youkai factions too got those offering ceremonies to satisfy them there's no way they'll sit still seeing the tengus getting such privilege

>>44424971
>outsider get chopped up at her party
>>44444033
>Outsiders are killed on Hakurei Shrine ground
Just like to point out the party in MashSumi wasn't thrown by Reimu, nor was it anywhere near the shrine.

>>44445722
In fact the one (and only iirc) time someone cooked human meat in the shrine, she went full slasher mode.

>>44445737
I wish Zounose would try to write Kasen morebut it kind of feels like he doesn't know what to do with her.
even here he's just repeating a plot point from WaHH.

What I hate most about zounoses grimderp is not how it goes against touhou canon, but actual mythology despite posing as "dude what if girls more monster", ignoring that a lot of Yokai DON'T eat human meat and a lot of Touhou characters aren't even Yokai in the first place.
Hes really just a dude with a vore fetish, also his art isnt even that good the eyes are weird. Imagine if spacezin hid his ball busting in a 'serious' doujin and it got praised by retards as a deconstruction.

His only good moment was a few panels where he dealt with the REAL dark topic of touhou, that being the inevitable end everything faces.

>>44446846
Ball busting deconstruction would be interesting you just suck

>>44446846
He's well aware of that, I'm sure. He just doesn't care.
I don't think he ever makes it a secret he loves bloody, gory shit too.

>>44409584
>comically dark

Flan wants to die

Also the one where Koishi gives Satori a lobotomy

>>44447108
>He just doesn't care
I don't mind bloody gore shit, as someone who read Yassy, Harasaki and wank to necrophilia h works. If they really don't care, then don't try to put on a moral high ground like 'muh tradition', or 'for balance of Gensokyo' bullshit, people like Harasaki know why their readers read their works, and thus never try to justify whatever crazy shit that happens in their works

>>44445722
>not at hakurei shrine ground
Oh fuck. Still, my point stands.

>>44447147
*Brain damage, not a lobotomy.
I think anyway, we might be talking about different doujins. Chances are slim though.
Picrel.

>>44448472
I think he's talking about the squeal, the most unbelievable part of it is that Koishi asked Eirin for help and she's didn't chatch what was going on and fix Satori herself.

>>44445064
Tengus, in the end, are eastern goblins. They must be purged to nothingness.

>>44446846
I liked his small yoshika story because it wasn't long enough for him to throw in any retarded stuff while also making sense (that's usually a pretty hard one for him)

>>44448914
yeah i really like this one. it's not out of place compared to canon too, we know seiga is a bitch and she's basically not letting yoshika rest in peace

>>44447370
I agree insofar as the moral high ground bullshit goes, but I feel like that's a bit overblown. Granted that might just be a difference in how you define what the moral high ground is.
Far as I'm concerned, "your death is for the greater good" only happens in two doujin. Three, arguably, though it has a "happy" end for how much that worth.

>>44446846
Please don’t talk out of your fancan head? Almost all youkai are human eaters, it is just whether they choose to or not

>>44451064
Go back to drawing, Zounose.

>>44448837
Fuck off Okina

>>44409584
Hourai Ninshin, can't go wrong with the classics.

>>44416348
I like it just because it's a fuck you to Isekai.

>>44409624
My main issue with it is mostly just that the human village is out of character. Everybody is about as sociopathic as they are in canon.

>>44423934
No.

I think he does try. But the main issue is he makes Touhou too overtly grimdark. Touhou is grimdark in a subtle more insidious way. Just compare the way canon Touhou handles things like Youkai preying on outsiders or the way the human villagers live to his doujins. He also just tends to make a lot of people act out of character. Which is pretty impressive the cast is already very unpleasant in general.

>>44452683
Go away spaztique

>>44416890
>marisa yandere series
that shit got derailed by the third one

>>44429413
It's basically the difference between milking cows and meat cows. They are both livestock kept for food, but only one is killed. Being a human villager is still a miserable experience.

>>44452773
Eh? your still here Zounose?
Weren't you told to leave earlier? Go back to drawing your Hisami book.

>>44443338
You know, I used to hate Reimu for this reason. But the more time I spend with her as a character the more I conclude that, no, she is actually genuinly just that fucking stupid. She genuinly doesn't realize that Yukari is basically a child serial killer responsible for more disappearances than the CIA. Mind you, the Hakurei clan as a whole are still total sociopathic pieces of shit and deserve to be wiped out.

As for other characters. I could see Youmu and Sakuya being okay with it because they are both pretty inhuman in their mindset (And literally half not human in Youmu's case). But Sanae and Marisa? Absolutely not. For all of their flaws they are both very principled characters.

>>44452761
Nah, I genuinly mean it. It's like how Final Fantasy tactics advanced works way better nowadays.

>>44445141
Which is what annoys me. Since the human villagers one defining trait is that, despite the sheer amount of suffering and hardship they go through to, they are good people and do not deserve what is happening to them.

>>44446846
>Imagine if spacezin hid his ball busting in a 'serious' doujin and it got praised by retards as a deconstruction.
That'd be cool

>>44447370
You're just a spoiled deranged manchild that can't even appreciate basic societal commentary

>>44429736
>The lives of the humans in return for sustaining the Youkai are mostly peaceful and protected from any real danger, sure they live rurally and aren't very technologically advanced, but in return they maintain a level of health and safety they wouldn't be able too other wise, not to mention they are mainly left to self regulate.
Not really. They would be way, WAY happier in the outside world. Hell, they would be happier in living in North Korea.

>>44447370
I mean, I do genuinly get the sense Zounose Gensokyo is supposed to be pretty irredeemable.

>>44452618
Considering the circumstances of Houraification, penile impalement doesn't seem too significant considering Kaguya and Mokou kill each other on a regular basis.

>>44452833
Anon, they have cheap highly effective medicine from the Hourai Pharmacy, a goddess of fall harvests, are protected from the large scale incidents in Gensokyo, have access to multiple hermits, and we've never really seen any famine or plague strike them.
Compared to starving to death underneath an oppressive dictator I think the residents of Gensokyo are fine, not to mention humans who die holding grudges against Youkai become Vengeful spirits who are extremely dangerous existences, so making sure they maintain some level of happiness is important.

>>44452932
> they have cheap highly effective medicine from the Hourai Pharmacy,
That's literally the one benefit they have. Everything else applies just as much to North Korea as it does to Gensokyo. Let alone Japan, which is a utopian paradise in comparison to Gensokyo.

>are protected from the large scale incidents
Which only exist because of Gensokyo. That's called a protection racket.

>and we've never really seen any famine or plague strike them.
I swear to god one of the manga's had them suffer from a natural disaster. Famines are basically a non issue in the outside world as well. Certainly in Japan, where the last major famine was world war 2.

>I think the residents of Gensokyo are fine,
They are fine insofar that they can cope. But they are shown to be pretty miserable in most of the spin off manga. Not overt 1984 oppressions, but a general atmosphere of human misery. Which is combined with the fact they know outsiders are way better off than them.

>>44452976
>natural disaster
The natural disasters the Tengu secretly help mitigate> meanwhile food shortages and famines can be big problems in countries(like NK) which aren't first world ones.
My point about their protection was that they generally have no fear of large scale conflict, war, or mass violence, there's a lot of places in the world where people would kill to have that level of protection.
Not to mention cheap highly effective medicine is something people even in first world countries struggle with, meanwhile Eirin is literally a god making and working miracles.

>But they are shown to be pretty miserable
I never really got that from them, they seem fine, they have festivals, drink, have food stands everywhere, and generally seem to live a prosperous rural life.

>they know outsiders are way better off than them.
Do they? I guess they know about shitty tabloids, the moon landings, and to computers and game counsels to an extant, but exact details about the outside world aren't known.
I'm not saying Gensokyo is perfect, but there are a lot of places in the world worse off than it.

>>44453112
>The natural disasters the Tengu secretly help mitigate
They still happened. Hardly total immunity.

>meanwhile food shortages and famines can be big problems in countries(like NK) which aren't first world ones.
The last time NK had a major famine was in the nineties. Every major famine since then basically only happened in a war torn African country. Which are basically the only places on world that are worse to live on Gensokyo. Good job, you beat out Somalia.

>there's a lot of places in the world where people would kill to have that level of protection.
Most of the world has that level of protection. Especially if you go for total population. And that's if you don't compare them to the country that they would otherwise live in: Japan.

>they seem fine, they have festivals, drink, have food stands everywhere
That's not prosperous rural life. That's just any kind of rural life. I've been to actual dirt third world villages and most of the people there had festivals, drinks, and food stands everywhere. They just also had most of the pleasantries of modern life and weren't constantly being tormented by evil spirits.

If you moved Gensokyo to East Europe the Human village would be the type of village you would see in the likes of Dracula or Frankenstein. It's slightly more outwardly pleasant just because the story takes place in Japan. Much like how your average village in Indonesia is going to look more pleasant than what you find in Norway. Despite the difference of living standards between the two.

>Do they?
Yes. PMISS mentions outsiders become celebrities overnight if they decide to stay because of what they know. Also that trends like Football spread from the outside world all the time. Everybody we see in the human village that is unhappy does so because they realize how worthless their lives are compared to outsiders.

>>44453205
>Good job, you beat out Somalia.
My point being, humans in Gensokyo maintain parity with or exceeds the outside world when it comes to conflict, famine, and sickness. There also doesn't seem to be any notable amount of violent crime, not to mention the natural disasters we do see don't seem to have left any dead.

>constantly being tormented by evil spirits.
While fearful of youkai I wouldn't say they're constantly tormented, the Youkai are explicitly not allowed to attack the human village, with tons of Youkai having some level of peaceful interaction with the village, like the rabbits and tanuki.

>PMISS mentions outsiders become celebrities overnight if they decide to stay because of what they know. Also that trends like Football spread from the outside world all the time. Everybody we see in the human village that is unhappy does so because they realize how worthless their lives are compared to outsiders.
If the human village is so miserable why would people even choose to stay? Not to mention why would they even be allowed to stay, more miserable vengeful humans = more vengeful spirits = more dead Youkai.
Why would any of the sages tolerate outside humans at all if they caused this level of discontent?

We do see the fortune teller show this sentiment, but he's just one guy, meanwhile most of the other residents we see like the regulars at the bar and the other villagers, who are mostly in the background seem fine.
yeah they're suspicious of and distrust Youkai, but that's perfectly reasonable considering how most Youkai are weirdos, not to mention these times of tension we are shown are when an outside factor is trying to disrupt the balance which the other Youkai, Remi, and other are trying to protect them from.

>>44453376
>My point being, humans in Gensokyo maintain parity with or exceeds the outside world when it comes to conflict, famine, and sickness.
It maintains parity with one of them, is below another, and arguably exceeds one of them. Arguably because we don't really get the implication that Eirin does cure everything and they do still have to pay for it. In every other regard it's way worse.

> There also doesn't seem to be any notable amount of violent crime
There doesn't seem to be a system of law, period. It's most likely just pure mob law. Which, while arguably effective in it's brutality is hardly sufficient for dealing with most complex cases. That's also not even getting into the fact that any kind of organized, or even random, criminal is going to have to deal with Youkai. Which most likely means saying Gensokyo doesn't have much violent crime akin to saying that Nazi Germany didn't have a issue with cripples.

>While fearful of youkai I wouldn't say they're constantly tormented
Being fearful is a state of constant torment. And while they aren't allowed to kill, it's made pretty clear that anything else is fine. Theft, trickery, rape, and violent assaults at the hands of youkai are common place going by PMISS and Symposium.

>If the human village is so miserable why would people even choose to stay?
Because they can't leave. The human village is basically a giant concentration camp. The moment they stop being villagers, they get murdered.

>Why would any of the sages tolerate outside humans at all if they caused this level of discontent?
It's a side effect, mostly. People are taken to Gensokyo to serve as youkai food or by accident. But if they get lucky and end up in the human village instead, they can spread their knowledge. Only real alternative would be murking every outsider that ends up in Gensokyo asap. Which wouldn't really work since most youkai are some degree of sadists and literally need human fear and pain to survive.

> but he's just one guy
Also a entire group of them in old lore.

>meanwhile most of the other residents we see like the regulars at the bar and the other villagers, who are mostly in the background seem fine.
They are mostly fine, but in the same way poor third world people are fine. With the added benefit of a nigh constant sense of dread. One of the bar regulars even kind of seems to understand his position but basically drops the line of thought because he would most likely literally not be able to handle it. There's a element of drowning your sorrows there. That's not even getting into some of their behavior like the salt merchant going off the deep end for no reason or youths showing a borderline suicidal sense of self preservation.

>not to mention these times of tension we are shown are when an outside factor is trying to disrupt the balance which the other Youkai, Remi, and other are trying to protect them from.
I mean, half the time that disruption would either kill them all outright if allowed to happen, has no real effect, or would benefit them greatly. Literally the single best thing that could happen to them all is the Barrier being destroyed, for instance.

>>44453543
>Arguably because we don't really get the implication that Eirin does cure everything
She dosen't need to cure everything in person, that's why Reisen is sent to sell medicine in the first place, not to mention the medicine is said to be cheap.

Also Tewi literally indiscriminately gifts people who see her with good luck, and we know she goes to the village sometimes, there also Hina who takes misfortune, those sister gods of fall and the harvest, Suwako being an earth god and blessing stuff, and Kanako bringing technological innovation albiet slowly.

>PMISS and Symposium.
Written by Akyuu who admits in the afterword to having a strong anti-youkai bias, and writing the book from the perespective of dealing with a violent Youkai, not to mention the blatant factual errors or speculation that's printed as fact.

>But if they get lucky and end up in the human village instead
You didn't answer the real question, if outsiders are so disruptive, why do they Sages tolerate them in the first place, why allow outsiders a chance to live when they could just be killed on arrival
Especially if the problem with dissatisfaction is as big as you say, then basically every villager would become a vengful spirit after they die. Would Eiki stand for that? would Yuyuko? Would Satori? not to mention anybody else from hell(old or new) who wouldn't want vengeful spirits becoming an even bigger problem.

Not to mention that the one vengful spirit we do see wrecks so much havok while going for the non-lethal, imagine how big of a problem an actually dangerous one would be. Now why would the Sages even risk that scenario, the answer is they don't, the Youkai need the humans to survive and can't risk any serious mental or physical harm, and they don't, from what we've seen they even help humans when they don't need to.

>Old lore

>There's a element of drowning your sorrows there. That's not even getting into some of their behavior like the salt merchant going off the deep end for no reason or youths showing a borderline suicidal sense of self preservation.
The patron is talking about Youkai eating humans, which he's wrong about, not to mention Suzako's own revelation about the place of the human village.

>borderline suicidal sense of self preservation.
What?

>Literally the single best thing that could happen to them all is the Barrier being destroyed, for instance.
because going from a relatively safe existence to being penniless in the middle of nowhere with no more protection would be better. You even admit they're protected from harm but somehow try to spin that as a bad thing.(Not to mention Keine who erased the village from history the second she thought it came under any real threat.)
Gensokyo isn't perfect but it's not some Zounose style grimsokyo you're imagining it to be.

>>44453702
>Also Tewi literally indiscriminately gifts people who see her with good luck
It's pretty random though.

>there also Hina who takes misfortune, those sister gods of fall and the harvest, Suwako being an earth god and blessing stuff, and Kanako bringing technological innovation albiet slowly.
Most of those hardly count as a boom that would put them above the outside world, or even maintain parity. Certainly don't make up for the bad stuff and generally demand some degree of offering. Hell, Kanako is also helping to industrialize the Tengu and Kappa. The latter are even shown using that knowledge that to make the lives of villagers even worse.

>Written by Akyuu who admits in the afterword to having a strong anti-youkai bias
Correct. But it also includes commentary from villagers who do seem to suffer from Youkai.

>why allow outsiders a chance to live when they could just be killed on arrival
They are more valuable as food for hungry Youkai.

>Especially if the problem with dissatisfaction is as big as you say,
It's big enough to be a societal trend. But it's balanced out by the general despair and lack of power. They can't do shit, and a certain point you either accept that and move on with your life or you off yourself. Most people that would become a vengeful spirit after death would pick the latter.

Hell, if Vengeful spirits are such a massive issue I doubt they would kill outsiders at all. Which, we know they do. Most likely the few spirits we've seen are special cases and your average one isn't that strong.


>Would Eiki stand for that? would Yuyuko? Would Satori?
Why would they care?

>The patron is talking about Youkai eating humans,
He talks about the human village basically being a giant farm, which he is correct about.

>Suzako's own revelation about the place of the human village.
Which is?

>What?
It's mentioned that village youths often bully Nue or visit concerts run by Youkai in some of the expanded materials.

>Because going from a relatively safe existence to being penniless in the middle of nowhere with no more protection would be better.
1: They have Yen. I'm sure it's still perfectly usable. 2: The Japanese government isn't perfect but I doubt they wouldn't help the villagers.

> You even admit they're protected from harm but somehow try to spin that as a bad thing.
Harm that largely only exists because of Gensokyo being a thing. Again, protection racket.

>Gensokyo isn't perfect but it's not some Zounose style grimsokyo you're imagining it to be.
It's on par with North Korea and probably kills more people on average. The problem with Zounose is that he turns it into a 1984 dystopian in which everybody is evil and that evil is totally inherent in the system. Gensokyo is still bad and it's total destruction would be a net benefit to every good person living in Gensokyo expect maybe Marisa.

>>44453837
>Most of those hardly count as a boom that would put them above the outside world, or even maintain parity. Certainly don't make up for the bad stuff and generally demand some degree of offering. Hell, Kanako is also helping to industrialize the Tengu and Kappa. The latter are even shown using that knowledge that to make the lives of villagers even worse.
Because they don't work for free? Honestly who does, and the Tengu are just trying to keep people away from their stuff when the lake froze over, and yeah it's a bit scary but they weren't exactly tormenting people.
My point being their standard of living is on parity, who cares if the boon comes from a machine, a man, or a god? Heck considering Eirin is a god her services probably outclass the outside world significantly. Not to mention the Tengu hardly want to hurt humans, yeah they want to influence them, but all the Youkai do, and the Kappa need a good relationship with humans in order to make a profit at all those social events they go to and sell stuff at.

>Why would they care?
Because vengful spirits are a problem and they are people who have to deal with that problem wouldn't like having to deal with more of it.

>Which is?
That the human village holds all the real power, the Youkai need humans, the humans don't need Youkai.

>He talks about the human village basically being a giant farm, which he is correct about.
He's wrong though, they human's literally aren't preyed upon, they're protected cause they're too important to just kill. As Suzako and marisa talking about in Forbidden Scrollery.

>It's mentioned that village youths often bully Nue or visit concerts run by Youkai in some of the expanded materials.
If the villagers feel so safe that village children can visit without being killed doesn't this kind of invalidate your other points?
Nue's really dangerous and could probably kill them, but she doesn't, she can't deal with the consequences cause more powerful people protect the village than her.
If the Youkai were such a danger things like this wouldn't happen in the first place, you are literally using an example of humans coexisting and not being threatened by Youkai as being an example of their peril.

>It's on par with North Korea and probably kills more people on average. The problem with Zounose is that he turns it into a 1984 dystopian in which everybody is evil and that evil is totally inherent in the system. Gensokyo is still bad and it's total destruction would be a net benefit to every good person living in Gensokyo expect maybe Marisa.
It's defiantly better than North Korea, does North Korea have literal gods?
I'm not saying the villagers aren't tormented by Youkai, but they are protected from serious harm, and generally live okay normal lives, probably overall dealing with the same amount of peril than the humans outisde when counting in car crashes, murder, war, and other such things they protected from.

i don't have the energy to read this whole debate but you guys are epic

>>44453959
The villagers literally live under the yoke of youkai and both the fortune-teller and mizuchi talk about it, they might need humans but they sure as hell enjoy the power in gensokyo, there is too much propaganda and ignorance going on in the human village for them to ever consider a rebellion nor have the courage to do so, and if by chance an outsider attempted to change something about the status quo he would die mysteriously

>>44453959
>My point being their standard of living is on parity
It's not. Nothing seems to indicate as such. At best it allows them to maintain a living standard on par with a backwards feudal Japanese village rather than a tribe living in the Amazon. Even most third party outside sources mention it as being on par with your average village in the Meijin era. Which is hardly that great compared to most of the world, let alone Japan.

>Because vengful spirits are a problem and they are people who have to deal with that problem wouldn't like having to deal with more of it.
Reimu would be the main person dealing with them and, for all of her whining, she doesn't seem to mind.

>that the human village holds all the real power, the Youkai need humans, the humans don't need Youkai.
But they don't actually know that. The entire human village is a giant lie meant to hide that fact and keep the human villagers miserable.

>He's wrong though, they human's literally aren't preyed upon, they're protected cause they're too important to just kill. As
He's half correct. The real truth is just way more insidious.

>If the villagers feel so safe that village children can visit without being killed doesn't this kind of invalidate your other points?
I think it's less that the villagers feel safe and more that your average youth literally doesn't care if they live or die. Their lives are utterly meaningful and they know it. Literally the only way they can feel any kind of joy or excitement is to potentially get a Youkai to rip their throat out, and that's assuming they aren't just trying to suicide by cop. If there was a trend of teenagers today jumping into a lion cage that doesn't mean lions aren't dangerous or feared. It just means there are a lot of very suicidal teenagers.

>does North Korea have literal gods?
Kim Jong-un is probably about as powerful as your average god is in how much he can affect the world. The only gods we see with a noticeable amount of power are Suwako and Kanako. Neither one of which uses their power to help people.

> but they are protected from serious harm
So is everybody in Japan.

>and generally live okay normal lives
So do people in dirt poor third world villages.

>probably overall dealing with the same amount of peril than the humans outisde when counting in car crashes, murder, war, and other such things they protected from.
With the added downside of worse living standards and no real freedom. Again, the North Korea comparison is perfectly apt.

>>44454018
I agree about the fortune teller, yeah he was a bit shady, but he did nothing wrong and if he didn't violate the one law the sages enforce he would still be alive.
For Mizuchi, other than CDS not being finished, she's not exactly a reliable source of information being a vengful spirit who has a grudge against Youkai, and the example she uses of opression and humans losing to Youkai is humans and Youkai existing peacefully.
Heck in context she's talking about the Tanuki who we know mean no harm to humans and even spread pro-tankui propaganda who depicts them as allies of humanity.

For and influence, yes the humans don't rebel against the Youkai because of propaganda like PMiSS and SoPM, Genoskyo is at the end of the day made to sustain Youkai and fulfill the sages personal whims. But that doesn't prevent the humans from living a good life and the only thing they are actively being stopped from doing is becoming Youkai, and probably committing rebellion as well, but killing rebels is a thing literally every government does so that's unsurprising.
It's not like the Kappa are forcing humans to but there stuff, or the Myrouren temple forcing people to join them, the humans choose to buy newspapers of their own volition, they don't have mandatory human sacrifice, don't have to pay taxes to Youkai or the Sages(except if you consider their belief a tax), the Youkai do jockey for influence and try to control the village, but they from what we've seen keep each other in check.

star crossed lovers don't send walls of text as big as you two

>>44454156
>Heck in context she's talking about the Tanuki who we know mean no harm to humans
The manga downright contradicts that by saying their tricks can and have killed people.

>But that doesn't prevent the humans from living a good life
People can have a good life everywhere. There are backwards Indian tribes that probably have decent lives. The point is that they would have a better life on the outside world in every possible way and they clearly want to leave. It's evil and dystopian, literally on par with a totalitarian dictatorship.

>>44454156
the fortune-teller wasn't shady at all, he was literally a villager who had a mental breakdown after learning how the outside world like and became disillusioned with gensokyo, that alone should give more than enough of a picture of how things are really going on behind the facade of "coexistence" and "balance"

>>44444671
That ISN'T REIMU, you nigger, it takes place in some other time period of Gensokyo in which some other shrine maiden is instead wearing a CCP cap.

>>44409584
The silence of the rabbits, not sure if it counts since it might be more comical and dark rather than comically dark, considering stuff like picrel.
>>44421399
lmao
>>44431927
Guess someone thought a bit too much about how 2hus appear in Seihou but also are in modern time and ZUN changing eye colors... iirc in some pc98 manual he said how they were different characters with the same names.
Anyways it was entertaining indeed.
>>44427907
It has a weird charm to it, at least they didn't do an account nuking.
Didn't expect to find fanart of pure moe stuff like K-on tho.
https://www.pixiv.net/en/artworks/11436547
>>44432032
Both are pretty nice, but these feel like those are grim rather than being grimderp.
>>44444847
I even saw someone say that the "miko" that melts into the rain could actually be someone dripping with blood, a killer or someone dying maybe seen from afar.
Sadly I guess ZUN has forgotten anything about DiPP or maybe didn't even plan shit for the start.
>>44454221
Considering Shanghai Alice of Meiji 17 it might have happened in 1884, but DiPP is probably ZUNs vaguest work.
>>44447370
Dunno maybe one could also not care to draw gore shit justified by hypocrites, could be a wicked way of expressing how bad and barbaric traditions of the past times were, or the current times, or it might be a consequence of seeing how people just go along with what other people do and don't do shit about x or y thing that's bad, dunno honestly what's up with Zounose but it seems to work to get attention at least.
I like more the comedy stuff but dunno maybe the other shit sells more or it might even just be the rants of a vegetarian.
Not so sure if it's that much of liking gore, since as far as what I've seen from Zounose there's barely any explicit gore like with Harasaki.
>>44447108
But this page is darm funny, basically Zounose in a nutshell.

>>44454186
It's not. Nothing seems to indicate as such. At best it allows them to maintain a living standard on par with a backwards feudal Japanese village rather than a tribe living in the Amazon. Even most third party outside sources mention it as being on par with your average village in the Meijin era. Which is hardly that great compared to most of the world, let alone Japan.
Because your average meji era village had access to the medicine made by the Hourai pharmacy and received the level of protection the village had.

>But they don't actually know that. The entire human village is a giant lie meant to hide that fact and keep the human villagers miserable.
By and large there doesn't seem to be this air of misery you keep going on about whenever we see the human village, they react to some Youkai like Orin with suspicion but reacting to a necrophiliac with suspicion is natural.
Not to mention the lie is that they are under threat by Youkai, while the reality is they aren't and that belief is part of Yukari's propaganda. In fact as shown in the manga they are protected by Youkai.


>It just means there are a lot of very suicidal teenagers.
Literal headcannon.

>With the added downside of worse living standards and no real freedom. Again, the North Korea comparison is perfectly apt.
They can do most things people in the outside world are free to do, with the exception of abandoning their humanity. Total freedom will never exist, and it doesn't in the outside world either.
>People can have a good life everywhere. There are backwards Indian tribes that probably have decent lives. The point is that they would have a better life on the outside world in every possible way and they clearly want to leave. It's evil and dystopian, literally on par with a totalitarian dictatorship.
Honestly as long as people live nice and happy lives who really cares about freedom, the only reason we care about freedom is because it CAN help a person live a good life. But that doesn't make is necessary. The Sages barely play a role in the average human's life and don't exert their power, and for their part the Sages seem to try to mitigate unnecessary suffering or don't go out of the way to hurt the human villagers.

>The manga downright contradicts that by saying their tricks can and have killed people.
Are you talking about the cruel master from the flashback in Loutus eaters? In which case he kind of got whats coming to him, or Mamizou's comment about how they attack people mistakenly sometime? The second case is less excusable but in context they belive the human to have committed some offense and the attack we do see is non-lethal, it's just disorients the guy.

>>44454421
Yeah my recommendations weren't that dark, I could have done better, but I liked these none the less.

>>44451064
eating human flesh is a choice for humans too, so what.
point is that lotsa youkai DONT have a diet that needs to consist of foreskin and liver. look at mystia who is often depicted as one just because she cooks and one throwaway pre-battle line being interpreted generously, ignoring that yosuzume DONT eat humans. they actually ward them against wolves.
hell, even the youkai that physically prey on humans often dont straight up eat them. some just drink blood, others eat toenails and hair or oil paper lanterns.
also, there is worse things in touhou canon than getting eaten, which i dont think you have realized yet. look at fucking seiga for example.

>>44453376
>If the human village is so miserable why would people even choose to stay?
I always thought that Gensokyo itself alters the mind of everyone who resides there. It's basically a big reservation for the pre-industrial earth so villagers are ok with their simple way of life since that's how the earth used to look back then

>>44456352
Which 2hu would eat foreskin

>>44456665
You just posted a picture of her, Reimu may loo innocent but she's just as hungry as the rest of the Youkai.
Not like she can afford any protein on her budget.

>>44456665
Rumia

>>44456665
ZUN, its by foresking eating powers that he gets his latest news of recent events in Gensokyo to turn into games.

>>44455004
>Yeah my recommendations weren't that dark,
Nah they are pretty dark, I think it's more of them of being grim for a reason rather than "lmao Grimsoukyo".
But honestly I'm surprised that I can't think of any story about Reimu killing Youkai turned humans, I didn't even know that Warugaki did a story like that, so glad you posted those.
I'd honestly expected it to be a more common topic for fans to explore.
>>44456585
I think they might just want to start a new life, away from their past troubles even if Gensoukyo has less technology it has magic and you start and you might start like the popular guy the first days your there so I can see people just deciding to abandon their previous life willingly.
Especially if we consider that people spirited away tend to be suicidal or people with little relation to anyone else, I believe those were mainly the humans they pic from the outside world which would probably rather stay in their isekai than go back to their life.

>>44456352
>also, there is worse things in touhou canon than getting eaten
Like Orin for example. Turning into a vengeful spirit is one of the shittiest ways to end up.

Honestly one of the scarier things in 2hu would be turning into a youkai/magician/etc. as a human. You lose your humanity/sense of self, your soul becomes fragile (as youkai are more spiritual than physical in stark contrast to humans), and you aren't self sustaining, needing fear/faith in order to just exist. You're turning yourself into a subhuman. It can be a simple as being in the wrong place at the wrong time.
Conducting godly powers, learning magic (but not to the extent that you turn into a youkai magician), cultivating psychic powers, and using spiritual tools/weapons like a gohei are all superior to turning yourself into a youkai and likely getting killed because of it. Don't forget that youkai attack and absorb each other too, so you still wouldn't be safe.

>>44455004
>Because your average meji era village had access to the medicine made by the Hourai pharmacy and received the level of protection the village had.
The former, no. The latter, yes. Bandits or warfare mostly weren't a issue back then. Meijin Japan didn't have incidents either. Unless you count massive increases in the quality of life.

>Not to mention the lie is that they are under threat by Youkai
Which makes them miserable or at least serves to make their lives worse.

>Literal headcannon.
Mostly, yeah. It's just implication.

>They can do most things people in the outside world are free to do
They literally can't leave the one village they live in. Even people in dictatorships have more freedom.

>Honestly as long as people live nice and happy lives who really cares about freedom
Which applies just as much to North Korea as it does to the Human village. Nothing in Gensok

>The Sages barely play a role in the average human's life and don't exert their power,
They literally have secret agents in almost every household ready to kill you at any time.

>Are you talking about the cruel master from the flashback in Loutus eaters?
I remember a manga panel saying that Tanuki tricks can and have killed people.

The idea that Gensokyo has parity with most of the outside world, let alone a first world country like Japan, is mostly just pure headcanon not supported by anything. Outside of that everything indicates the people don't like being around Youkai, don't want to be in Gensokyo, and are being kept against their will.

>>44456352
>One
Most of her dialogue in both games she appears in indicate she likes eating people.

>>44458152
Lose of humanity is scary. Just look at the likes of Remilia or Flandre.

Fortune Teller, while mostly doing nothing wrong, was incorrect about becoming a Youkai. It shows the desperation he had to improve his life.

>>44458420
>Just look at the likes of Remilia or Flandre.
What's so terrible about them? They're immortal superpowered vampires who don't even care about actual vampire lore like lethal sunlight and can control causality at will or kill literally anything. And all they need in turn is blood transfusions.

>>44458747
>What's so terrible about them?
Both are incapable of growth. Their lives are spend seeking fleeting and temporay pleasure with no hope for any kind of future.

>>44458859
Actually that makes we wonder are Remy and Flan bore vampire or did they become vampires.
At least Flan seems to have always been a vampire considering how she's spent her entire life within that basement, which could rule out her being human in the first place.

>>44458152
This is kind of a cope, humans have to shit, fart and eat every single day to survive and have to work hard every day for it, their soul might be less vulnerable but their bodies are very fragile and they can't naturally do magic, youkai have much comfier and easier lives, they live for centuries without decaying, they're born with superpowers they have an inherent affinity for, they don't even need to actually eat to survive, just a little scare to humans once in a week is enough for the fear to sustain them

And don't even get me started on celestials and lunarians, they have the most luxurious lives possible

>>44461588
Celestials get their luxurious lives through a mastery of self-control. Any human can become a celestial, yet few chose to sacrifice their carnal, base desires in order to do so.

Would the complete genocide and erradication of every single youkai and nonhuman in gensokyo be a good thing? It would liberate the human villagers and they would be allowed to integrate into modern japan's superior lifestyle.

>>44461588
Becoming a youkai would still be a shitty choice, even with all of its "benefits". Who knows what the implications would be post-death. Youkai can apparently be judged by yama but its not definitive whether or not they have souls while humans absolutely do and can go to any number of realms after death.
Humans are plenty strong in Touhou. Marisa isn't a youkai yet can harness very powerful magic, Reimu has intuition/psychic abilities aside from her shrine powers, Maribel can perceive and manipulate boundaries to the point of traveling thousands of miles through space, Sumireko can astral travel/project and can naturally fly, etc. Most youkai have lackluster abilities, and PMiSS is chock full of lies related to them. Humans can become hermits and eventually celestials without needing to abandon themselves.

Becoming a youkai is the easy way out.

>>44461747
We wouldn't have Touhou then.

>>44461588
>>44461792
You're forgetting the innate fragility of youkai inasmuch as they rely entirely on humanity to live on, and most of them have in fact died out in the Outside World. Gensokyo is a nature reserve, a retirement home for an obsolete species with an artificially maintained ecosystem that requires constant monitoring from several parties to function properly. It's a tenuous solution at best.

Youkai may be strong in the physical realm, to the point of manipulating physical reality in various ways, but spiritually they are weak in the extreme. Whereas humans, weak in the physical world, are spiritually supreme. One of the deadliest things to a youkai is a (dead) human (spirit). And that's supposing it hasn't been already un-existed by the collective human zeitgeist.

This isn't Grimsokyo nonsense, by the way. It's all canon.

>>44461792
Not to mention, mortallity isn't that much of a downside, yeah you die, but your soul is immortal as long as you don't actively fuck youself over or replace everything inside of it with vengeance.
Even the punishing afterlife's are made to help humans reduce their negative karma so they can eventually escape the cycle of reincarnation and achieve enlightenment.

>>44461588
Becoming a youkai would mean turning yourself into a tool of the Lunarians. It's selling out your own species for the benefit of smug assholes on the moon.
At least opt to become a hermit or god if mere humanity isn't enough for you, or dedicate yourself to anti-Lunarian causes so strongly that Hecatia would nab your soul in hell and make her your servant.
Anything's better than turning yourself into a monster.
>>44461896
Youkai aren't even strong in the physical realm. Their powers are by nature fantastical and nonsensical, and it's only because of the barrier that rejects common sense that surrounds Gensokyo that allows them to comfortably wield their inhuman powers.

>>44462175
The ideal is to extend your lifespan and gain strength as a hermit, then marry a youkai and get her preggers. Half breeds that begin to negate the weaknesses of both, enjoying both the physicality and spiritual strength of a human, and raw power that being a youkai brings. Youkai of the olden days are truly obsolete, update them to a new version and hardware.

>>44409584
For me it's Laughing Crescent Moon
https://dynasty-scans.com/chapters/laughing_crescent_moon

>>44462175
Well I guess, i'm not defending the Youkai or Lunarians here, but do the Youkai even act in Lunarian interests, sure they like the moon itself, but they don't really like the Lunarians, and while their design intent is to help control the Impurity of earth they seem to not really care about killing off humanity.
In fact killing off humanity would probably kill all Youkai, with the exceptions of ones who already don't care about the existence of humanity one way or the other.

For the part of the Sages, even though they say stuff like Gensokyo being built to sustain Youkai, we only really have their word about it and the three of the four we've seen are Liars, with Kasen working towards the laws of heaven, Yukari having a hidden true goal, and Okina being a god who protects outcasts so of course she's going to protect the endangered species both natural and supernatural of the world.
Not to mention the Youkai like Tewi who have reasons to actively work against Lunarian influence, and while yes the Lunarians allow Gensokyo to continue existing since they could eradicate it without effort that seems to more be indifference rather than support of Gensokyo, heck Hell probably is probably more pro-Gensokyo politically.

>>44462175
>and it's only because of the barrier that rejects common sense that surrounds Gensokyo that allows them to comfortably wield their inhuman powers.
Because "common sense" has become the opposite in the Outside World. But presumably they used to wield similar powers as they do in Gensokyo nowadays, back when humanity still believe they could, at least where Touhou's "reality" is concerned.

>>44461896
I think partnership between a human armed with knowledge (such as an outsider) with a vengeful spirit would be extremely deadly I think.

>>44462520
How did vengeful spirits threaten youkai again? I forgot... i recall that if they possessed a youkai for long enough it would eventually die... but if thats the case, it would only be able to get rid of a youkai one at a time, right?

>>44462567
The moment a vengeful spirit possess a youkai the youkai is already dead since the vengeful spirit completely take over their mentality and drain their spiritual essence, this is why it was said somewhere that it's the most efficient way to truly kill a youkai besides non-belief, you coordinate skillfully you could get the vengeful spirit to swiftly possess as many youkai as it can to kill them all

>>44462589
Didn't Yukari get herself possessed at some point in CDS?

>>44462567
Their nature is one which is harmful to Youkai and Gods, they naturally posses powers which allow them to undermine and taking control of them which can lead to death, the biggest problem is that they can do this regardless of the targets power.
If Youkai were made with the intent of exterminating humanity, then vengful spirits exist to exterminate Youkai and Gods. Of course this isn't exactly to the benefit of vengeful spirits either since they've replaced everything inside of themself with hatred and vengance, which are fleeting emotions, they'll eventually have to allow themselves to give this up and reincarnate of they degrade into empty pure spirits that don't reincarnate.
Like what Zanmu does to fairys, which cosidering you can't turn back make this a fate worse than death.

>>44462600
Yeah but Mizuchi is going for the non-lethal, she seems to want Reimu to take her job more seriously and for all her sperging she hasn't killed anybody.

say, do the afterlife need belief to exist too? if i recall correctly hecatia said there's a hell for otherworlds which include gensokyo, a hell for the moon and a hell for the earth, but how is it possible when earth has many conflicting religions about how the afterlife is?

>>44462689
Anon, hell is infinite and accepting of everything, even that which the Sages would reject. There is literally so much hell to go around it's impossible to administrate, and it's not part of earth of human consensus so the denizens probably don't care what the Humans think, it's not like the Yama, Heavenly kings and generals, and Buddha would stop trying to help humanity even if they stopped believing in them, besides the human souls in hell clearly believe in it since they're there.

Boy I sure do love endlessly discussing about how irl these fictitious monsters who look like little girls in my silly game about wearing fluffy ridiculous hats and dodging projectiles that look like candy would actually eat humans to survive

>>44462689
I question how much belief is actually necessary to be considered adequate for fantasy to exist.
Sumireko has psychic power in the age where such thing is considered hogwash, except from maybe a couple of eccentrics.
Renko is even stranger since she's as much "woman of science" as one can be, yet has a very fantastical ability.

>>44462737
>besides the human souls in hell clearly believe in it since they're there.
But wouldn't that apply to Gensokyo aswell? the human villagers are there, they experience the supernatural phenomena of gensokyo and see the youkai with their eyes

>>44462828
Psychic powers are very special in that they're a natural phenomena that doesn't require faith/belief to exist. People don't believe in them however because proving to other people that you have them is close to impossible, actual psychics are extremely rare, and most people aren't actually all that smart despite what educational institutions and human society would have you think (close-mindedness). I think its likely that Sumireko only has very strong psychic abilities in Gensokyo while being very weak in the real world due to the nature of Gensokyos borders.
Youkai can be thought of as natural phenomena as well, born from humanities global consciousness or whatever, but of course... sufficiently advanced science/technology/phenomena is indistinguishable from magic, after all.

All throughout history those ahead of the curve in science have been rejected.

>>44462792
Worse. They don't need to eat human flesh to survive. It's just a delicacy to them.

>>44461747
>modern japan's superior lifestyle
By the time of the Secret Sealing Club, Japan has turned humanity into a commodity that is commissioned and decommissioned like pieces of hardware. That's exactly how most youkai see humans, but they aren't as blatant about it.

>>44462906
Well yeah, but the Youkai need humans, they were originally made as a bioweapon that feed of human negative emotions by the Lunarians.
Of course if they actually killed all the humans they'd die off, and the modern Youkai seem fine with either retiring to Gensokyo or to fade into non-existance.

>>44453543
>youths showing a borderline suicidal sense of self preservation.
Oh boy, I'm so clad this doesn't happen irl.
>>44462919
Considering what's shown in touhou I guess they can feed on normal stuff but they seem to need human fear (or flesh maybe) as some sort of vitamin, like they don't seem to need it all the time but continued lack of it kills them. Or maybe they are just cursed with feeling ever hungry unless they spook humans and could actually find alternatives or change "species" similar to humans becoming hermits.
The problem is that if they didn't need humans, and could easily choose not to kill or spook them to begin with, Gensoukyou would have never been founded in the first place.
>>44462589
Maybe vengeful spirits in mass attacking youkai could have helped making youkai separate from humans and thus losing fear and letting science advance without stumbling with the problem of having to explain monsters, saying they're fake and gay and getting mauled afterwards.
I wonder if youkai were even aware of them needing fear before they started dying maybe the same happened with gods and faith and lunarias and kegare just like humans with bacteria.

>>44458747
>like lethal sunlight
I'm not sure if that ever happens in any vampire story before the movies, as far as I read they get weaker, maybe they would slowly die if you trap them in a place were they cannot escape the sun for hours, but don't remember any classical vamp to die by sunlight.
>>44459238
I would doubt that since in they mention transforming humans into vampires in PMiSS, I've read a post of an anon ranting about how nips don't get vamps and treat them like "demons" more than undead, so I would doubt for there to be born vamps in touhou, but ZUN will never expand on 2hu vamp lore so who knows.
>>44462265
The only three panels that aren't dark or tragic are those of Remi remembering good times.
Welp that was grim.

It's said that if a youkai consume a hermit they ascend into a higher state of being or something, what the hell could it be? They transform from youkai into a demon?

>>44409624
theres some really out of character shit in this series, otherwise it would be better. for example i kind of doubt sanae would actually succumb to that type of stupid shit, also the villagers won't fuck over their own like that. replace the village boy with an outsider and have sanae bail right before shit, and i could see it be canon, i just can't accept it as is.

>>44463922
Nah i think you're probably coping desu the villagers literally live in squalor and are the same primitive superstitious peasants of the pre-industrial period, people didn't have the same morals as the modern age

This is why if the outside world discover gensokyo we should nuke the village in the same way we nuke dangerous uncivilized tribes of savages

>>44463635
>仙人を喰らうと妖怪としての格が上がる
>A youkai who consumes a hermit may be promoted to a higher rank or ascend to a higher form.
I'm not too good with japanese but 格が上がる makes it sound more like they become more powerful rather than become a higher form, I would say they increase their tier as a youkai since there's clearly a big gap between low youkai like Rumia, Kogasa, Mystia... and strong youkai like Yuuka and Yuukari.
So maybe a hermit or two might even them out a bit but I think they still would count as youkai.
>>44462913
I believed one of the stages background looked like skyscrapers from the outside world. But maybe it was an illusion or it was still inside the border somehow.
Guess I've should play the air fighters to really know though.

>>44463944
LMFAO

>>44463944
yeah but there are rules in place on the youkai side, or the whole ass village would have gotten eaten ages ago and filthy youkai would have long gone extinct, and the rules explicitly state outsiders only are food, hence why people go missing in the touhouverse, they get gapped and fed to the youkai. Hell Sumireko by all rights fall under the food definition and basically lucked the fuck out via running into reimu fairly fast.

>>44463944
Haven't seen such fedora tipping in a while.
Next you're going to say that they're unwashed, illiterate and have no sewers.

>>44463944
While in Gensoukyo might be different I don't think most civilizations stopped human sacrifice way before excluding random madmen which we probably still have to this day.
Recently industrialized places feel like they were way worse morally and stuff like heavy use of poisons that are required for x industry probably didn't help.
Although the modern discussions in media don't look very either very civilized...

>>44464000
You tell me anon, I wouldn't be surprised if the villagers pee on the ground

>>44463944
they probably also crucify outsiders who attempt to spark rebellions against youkai or introduce tech like smartphones which their backward savage brain would deem to be witchcraft

I agree with you man, fuck the villagers, they aren't innocent in this

>>44464111
Yeah I think the villagers have been brainwashed with the coexistence of youkai to the point of no-return, an uncivilized tribe remain an uncivilized tribe, purge it

>>44464111
>>44464082
>>44464111
>>44464128
Ah, so you're just baiting. How boring.

>>44464111
can't you at least attempt to pretend you actually give a fuck about canon?

>>44464111
I think it's less that the villagers crucify outsiders and more that your average villager literally doesn't care if they live or die. Their lives are utterly meaningless and they know it. Literally the only way they can feel any kind of joy or excitement is to potentially crucify outsiders and their throat out, and that's assuming they aren't just trying to suicide by youkai. If there was a trend of crucifying outsiders that doesn't mean outsiders aren't dangerous or feared. It just means there are a lot of very brainwashed villagers.

>>44464139
you might have schizophrenia anon, perhaps you belong in the village

What the fuck is all this sudden demeaning talk of the villagers? They always seemed the sanest group in gensokyo

>>44464234
the villagers are the end result of forcing isolated humans to think and act as superstitious apes
Nuking it would be a mercy kill

I guess nips making grimsokyo fanworks really triggers some people huh, wonder if gensoukyo would even be necessary irl seeing how they struggle with canon and fanon.
Dam cutesoto fags. Makes me wonder how people that hate alternatives to the current human society so much end in a board like this, maybe they're just trolls or something.

>>44464400
>Makes me wonder how people that hate alternatives to the current human society so much end in a board like this, maybe they're just trolls or something.
>hate alternatives to the current human society
That's grimsokyofags, they just turn Touhou into real world with magic.

This thread sure took an interesting turn.

>>44464400
It's just that your average normie is unaccustomed to a fantasy world of magic that parallel the cruelty of our world because in their head if there are girls and shit then surely it'll satisfy their fetishes

>>44464565
>fantasy world of magic that parallel the cruelty of our world
That's most fantasy worlds. The normalfags are in both camps, and can't accept that Gensokyo is multifaceted, and not just "cute girls" or "maneating monsters".

>>44464617
Wrong, most people think of fantasy worlds as an escape where they'd be better off and have more friends and adventures and shit.
The truth is that it depends on what kind of fantasy we're talking about but Gensokyo is certainly *not* one of them, it's as cruel and oppressive as our world is, just replace the science with magic and psychopaths with supernatural beings

>>44464400
I'm a Grimsokyo (or, rather, Canonsokyo) fag myself, and even I take some offence at some of the works mentioned in this thread. There's a difference between adhering to the somewhat unforgiving canon and oversaturating the setting with nonsensical violence and destruction.

KKHTA, for example, reads like an outright insult to the series. Zounose is a bit more subtle, and clearly he cares for the source material, but he's a shitty writer who'll sacrifice his own story for an excuse for a cheap gore shot. And so on and so forth. Some people just take it too far, and it ends up coming off as grotesque.

>>44464668
I'd prefer to be ruled over youkai then humans.

>>44464668
Anon, he saying that the people who see Gensokyo as entirely bright or grimdark are missing the point.
Yeah most people think of fantasy worlds as an escape, most fantasy worlds also parallel real life, both of those statements are true.

>>44464709
>youkai then humans
I don't know why you'd want a downgrade like that

Lunarians are better than youkai, as smug as they are they atleast don't directly involve themselves in earth affairs and keep to themselves, youkai however wouldn't think twice about expanding their territory for more food should the barrier collapse

>>44464788
Youkai have an interest in keeping life in the village stable. They're unconcerned about micromanaging for the most part of all the spying and manipulation that do. The political shitflinging is kept out of sight of humanity, and if it gets out of hand it can be dealt with by a young girl. "I'm 500 years old and and can disintegrate you with a wave of my hand" is a much better reason to rule over others than "I have a lot of money and know other people with a lot of money".

Lunarians are literally the worst, they created youkai, want to kill all life on earth, and have a society created around abusing a lower class.
Although if you only care about humans then them using the moon rabbits as slaves isn't a negative.
Not to mention the entire reason Genoskyo exist is because the Youkai didn't choose to wage war against humanity as they were designed to by the Lunarians, and retreated behind the barrier.
If the barrier collapses they'll die due to human consensus being that they don't exist, the barrier serves to protect Youkai and whatever the Sages endgoals are, not for the sake of protecting humans from Youkai.

>>44464668
Gensokyo is not all sunshine and rainbows, but to claim that it's as bad as our world is ridiculous. At least people there have some actual opportunities at ataining enlightenment, as opposed to decay and false promises of modern civilization.
>>44464788
Morally ambiguous supernatural creatures > deranged demon worshpers
>>44464812
>atleast don't directly involve themselves in earth affairs
Emperor Jimmu's father was a lunarian.

>>44464906
>Gensokyo is not all sunshine and rainbows, but to claim that it's as bad as our world is ridiculous. At least people there have some actual opportunities at ataining enlightenment, as opposed to decay and false promises of modern civilization.
Lol no, corruption in Gensokyo is as rampant as it is in our world, you got celestials who lie about heaven for self-serving political purposes, you have shinigamis from hell sent to assassinate hermits who attempt to break free from the cycle of life and death, you have much more shit going on than you are willing to acknowledge, even becoming a youkai magician is arduous to the point that very few to no villagers has gone through the effort of becoming one, and one of their kin who actually attempted something for once (fortune-teller) came across the truth and wanted to fuck off from the system of gensokyo asap

>>44464707
I feel like KKHTA is unique because as gory and grimsokyo-like it is, it also shows the complete destruction of gensokyo at the hands of the outside world's humans (and lunarians).
I feel like if zounose wrote someting like KKHTA he would just make everyone in gensokyo brutally murder and enslave every single outsider.

>>44464932
The way it's described, the Celestials target hermits no matter were they are, and enduring tribulations from Heaven is literally part of their journey, they literally sign up for it.
Not to mention ascension the normal way via reducing negative karma is perfectly legal everywhere and something that's trying to be improved by making hell more effect at reducing it, although that's through making hell more hellish.
Honestly i'd rather live and die as a human then becoming something like the fortune-tellar did, why be stuck as a Youkai when my soul can eventually reach enlightenment the normal way?

>>44464932
Alright, let's get shit in order:
>celestials who lie about heaven for self-serving political purposes
Celestials in Touhou are just Deva, thus are still part of six realms and still in the cycle of reincarnation (PMiSS claims they're not, but since they are tageted by Hell's assassins and thus would be reincarnated forcibly, it doesn't count) so they aren't enlightened. In fact, being Deva makes it harder to be enligtened due to some buddhist cosmology shenanigans.
>you have shinigamis from hell sent to assassinate hermits who attempt to break free from the cycle of life and death
Because some hermits don't clean their karma by commiting good deeds, or are simply in it to get to Heaven, ignoring enlightenment. This is celestial burocracy working as intended.
>even becoming a youkai magician is arduous to the point that very few to no villagers has gone through the effort of becoming one
No issues here, because of this:
>and one of their kin who actually attempted something for once (fortune-teller) came across the truth and wanted to fuck off from the system of gensokyo asap
becoming a youkai is a hasty and retarded move. If fortune teller was actually smart, he would try to become either a hermit, and concidering that he knew some magic and had enough wit and will to compete his plan beyond the grave, he would have all chances.

How do you think the youkai characters's voices sound like? childish? human-like? maybe a bit inhuman?

>>44465333
It depends, although we generalize them as just being Youkai each species can differ greatly, not to mention one-off Youkai like Yukari. But I imagine Tengu to have high pitched scratchy voice, Kappa & faeries to sound like children, the Hags to sound like women in their 40s and most other Youkai as sound as if they're in their 20s.

>>44465175
you forgot the point of WHY he wanted to become a youkai in the first place, he practiced divination magic and perceiving the outside world (our world), the realization hit him about how gensokyo is really just a concentration camp for humans being under the yoke of youkai (he says it himself) and how he wanted to take the easy way out to escape such a miserable life

>>44465368
Adding on to this, really the only retarded thing the fortune-teller did was reveal his origins and plan to Reimu Hakurei who is just a fucking dog of the sages, so of course he got killed, he could have simply pretended to be an ordinary youkai so that he would have faced normal extermination instead of execution

>>44465368
The Salt mansion owner is also killed for becoming a Youkai, but his case is different, a Youkai is trying to take advantage of him as a human and become him, and honestly restricting people from becoming Youkai makes complete sense with everything we know.
Besides humans don't have a wight to abandon humanity, the Heavens and the Hells just provide paths to ascension due to their sympathetic nature, that said the fortune teller did got done dirty by Reimu.

>>44465402
>the Heavens
Celestials lie about heaven being overgrowded, don't take the credibility of "ascension" for granted
>the Hells
If I remember correctly, Eiki was paid money in exchange for someone to have their sins absolved or something I didn't have a clear idea of, also the Ministry of Right and Wrong isn't even the dominant organization in the hells, they're basically a desperate attempt at establishing order by the yama in the chaotic realm of the hells, Hell itself is an absolute anarchy where some individuals live in absolute freedom and others want to destroy the entire universe (quote from hecatia)

i don't think afterlife realms were born out of belief, i think hell and heaven existed as soon as the first human or creature died

>>44465432
>they're basically a desperate attempt at establishing order by the yama in the chaotic realm of the hells
Yes, humans by nature have capacity for good and evil, but that also means all humans have some wickedness inside of them, Eiki and the ministry are going out of their way to try to help people.

For the heavens, why should the celestial lets humans into their realm indiscriminately? It's their realm, humans don't have a right to go there, by even allowing humans to go there at all they are extending a courtesy, they don't have to let people in if they don't want to.
Could both be more fair and corrupt?
Yes I'll agree with you on that.
But that also does not diminish the fact they are going out of their way to help people, would you rather they not, and no paths to escaping the cycle of reincarnation exist? That the Buddha and everybody else just fuck off and let humanity rot?

>>44465486
>That the Buddha and everybody else just fuck off and let humanity rot?
The Outside World is already doomed if we're talking about that, humanity is becoming more and more materialistic with no knowledge nor spiritual awareness of the supernatural, Kanako herself says that one of the distressing things about the Outside World is how dead the spirituality in there is, and it's implied that even modern religions have a distorted view of how spirituality work, Kanako, Miko and even Seiga make fun of the abrahamic religions, the latter even made Jesus look like a joke compared to Miko's divinity

>>44465534
Literally the only group who knew how to make science, divinity and magic work together harmoniously are the Lunarians, hence why they are considered the second strongest existence right behind the infinite Hells

>>44465368
And taking the easy way killed him is what I'm trying to say. Also, his "revalation" is a false one, as was posted before.
He just sounds like one of those "Outside World is perfect and Gensokyo needs to be nuked" people I constantly see in these threads.
>>44465402
>>44465432
>>44465486
I've already spoke about Heaven being a false endgoal before. You are still basically a hermit, you just live in a prettier locale. Attaining Nirvana is much more preferrable.

>>44465551
>I've already spoke about Heaven being a false endgoal before. You are still basically a hermit, you just live in a prettier locale. Attaining Nirvana is much more preferrable.
No, for one, a hermit who live in heaven (celestial) develop flesh which is toxic to youkai whereas an earthly hermit is a delicacy, and for two, they also get the privilege to eat heavenly peaches that enhance their strength and can supposedly ride the clouds and tame the most ferocious beasts with a hand (not sure what that means)

>>44464429
>That's grimsokyofags
cutesoto wasn't a typo but a way to call people that think the outside world is allways better no matter what...
I'm sure most cutesoukyofags would think that gensoukyo is way better than real life.
>>44464617
>and can't accept that Gensokyo is multifaceted
That might probably be it, as far as I've seem most people are like "x characters are evil and y characters are good no matter how you look at it"
>>44464707
I just enjoy seeing all the random interpretations people make, honestly, but yeah sometimes people go too far, I still have to read more Zounose I guess since stuff like Kaminare seem to not have cheap gore shots, and the sacrifice was rather quick. I gotta say tho Zounose manages to make food look really gross dunno if it's because since you know it's human meat so it's a subconscious effect but it's really off putting.
>>44464982
Tbf I can not think of a single fanwork that does that, I guess there's probably some fanfics, but nobody able to draw has decided to go destroy the fantasy world. Probably still pisses humanity fuck yeah fags since moonies still exists or something.
KKHTA still has many flaws but I really did not expect it to go from le edgy koishi to rip gesoukyo and world peace.
>>44464452
indeed, from fanwork to canon, some people here really like the canon.

>>44465534
I wouldn't take anything Kanako says at face value given how blatantly self-absorbed she is. Her interpretation of what proper "spirituality" entails is basically just a racket.
>>44465550
The fact that the Lunarians are considered to be the most spiritually developed only makes me question the term even more. Like, they have a slave caste, they're culturally stagnant, in denial of their own inevitable end, and completely convinced of their own superiority.
Like, what does spirituality even mean at that point? It certainly doesn't involve any morals, at the very least.

>>44465629
Perhaps Nazism, Isolation, Supremacism and Eugenics are actually an efficient way of reaching spiritual perfection...
Just kidding, "spirituality" being dead as Kanako puts it is probably in the context of the outside world being completely ignorant, oblivious or in denial about the supernatural realities of the world, clinging to science as their new god which stiffles room for spirituality

>>44465656
She also makes fun of humanity believing that there must be aliens out there despite never having come across one, calling it the new "mysticism"

>>44465579
True, I forgot about those, those would make ones life easier. Still, most of what I said still stands, as you are not safe from Hell's assassins if you don't do good (which for most deva-celestials in Touhou seems to mean get down to Earth to spout some pseudophilosophy).
>>44465629
Kanako is a pagan godess, and pagans often have some rather materialistic views on their beliefs.
As for spirituality and and morals, see here>>44465175
>Because some hermits don't clean their karma by commiting good deeds, or are simply in it to get to Heaven, ignoring enlightenment.
Lunarians only became spiritually developed for immortality, and nothing else. Thy probably ought to be targeted more by Hell for the sin of creating monsters, but the Dragon God probably protects them or something.

>>44465690
Strangely enough the Lunarians don't even get targeting by assassins from hell or judged by the yama, they get targeted by the fucking hell goddess herself, that's how annoying their existence is to the hells due to how they probably cheated their way through spiritual supremacy along with advanced tech

>>44465701
>targeting
meant *targeted

>>44465175
>buddhist cosmology shenanigans.
It's something along the lines of can't reach enlightenment by just having all pleasures at your hand iirc
>becoming a youkai is a hasty and retarded move.
Honestly yes, have divination powers to do that becoming the oppressor and getting instakilled.
idk people like Marisa or the Hermits seem to be doing quite fine, it's not like he was going to become the first magician or hermit ever.
>>44465333
I'd like to think that they sound normal but when pissed or going feral they start sounding inhuman.
>>44465459
Considering how humans of the outside world get there no matter it seems to be, now stuff like how the world was made is still not clear except some ending in hisoten saying gods made it without elaborating.
>>44465629
>most spiritually developed only makes me question the term even more
Spirituality as in magic power rather than as in I'm holier than thee.
The animal realm matriarchs wouldn't be powerful if magic power was attached to morals.

>>44465629
Not only is Kanako blatantly self absorb but Miko and Seiga the "Wicked Hermit" are talking out of their asses about people and religions they've probably never researched and base their judgment of power levels.
When they don't even have an accurate grasp of the people their talking about, because honestly a Half-God, Hermit, Saint sounds like the same type of Hermit God power gaming bullshit that Junko does.
Not to mention the Taoists goal is to achieve personal enlightenment and they use religion mainly as a tool of convince.

>>44465656
My interpretation as well, although long term, it's probably even worse for the humans considering they create the Grand Unified Theory, which from what we know about human consensus probably isn't anything good.
spiritually speaking.

>>44465619
Honestly, most of Zounose's stuff that isn't about maneating is alright (except that Banki doujin, it's very dumb). I especially liked his works about UM, and I like his darkly humorous take on Suwako.

>>44465743
>>44465741
Also, Kanako also mention that Gods and Youkai are needed for humans to have spiritual progression, but I don't get it, why would they need literal parasitic egregores for spiritual progression? Or is it just typical gensokyo propaganda?

>>44465619
>it's really off putting
Reminds me of how Hannibal cooking scene has a dark tint to it accompanied by squelching noise.
Obviously not the same since pictures and all but the meat he drew has an uncanny level of details especially compared to how the girls look.
Of course, knowing that it's human meat definitely helps.

>>44465801
perhaps it's because two those beings bring out strong emotions in humans which are healthy for their spiritual progression, gods invoke a strong sense of reverence and faith meanwhile youkai invoke a strong feeling of fear and dread, they might be parasitic at first glance but perhaps they're spiritually beneficial in the long-term

>>44465358
Forgot to add, I see the rabbits as sounding like children as well, except for Tewi who has to purposefully put on a voice due to sounding like the rest of the hags.

>>44466038
I mean tewi is canonically the white hare of Inaba, which is at least 1500 years old, she's literally one of the oldest hags in gensokyo.

>>44409584
Why has no one posted this one:
https://danbooru.donmai.us/pools/3659
Passion for your Sake.
It’s about Marisa being depressed because she can’t become a powerful magician. It’s comically melodramatic.

>>44466194
Jiroo's stuff always strikes me as deliberately goofy. It isn't unintentionally funny because of how edgy it can get, but just purposely doing the dark stuff in a way that makes it silly.
Also, the way it's drawn makes everyone looks like they're just constantly depressed, which makes it hard to take it seriously.
The Flandre one is just outright hilarious:
https://danbooru.donmai.us/posts/1186235

>>44466291
Yoshika's face is definitely... something.

Iku once mentioned that celestial maidens intentionally drop their veil to get an earthly husband

>>44466348
How would a celestial wife be like

>>44466194
the sequel sucked

>>44466420
Terrible. Have you seen Tenshit's taste in so-called fine gourmet?

>>44466522
That’s because she has it ruined by Shion first time

>>44466348
ASSA

>>44466194
You fucking retard, he said COMICALLY dark, not depressingly dark

>>44468928
Oh look, it's Chiyari.

>>44461747
Without question. Yeah, a few decent Youkai would die. But, you knmow, can't make omelet without breaking eggs.

>>44462269
>but do the Youkai even act in Lunarian interests
Their purpose is to be a drain on human society. While they have failed in that purpose, every innocent person they murder is them doing their job.

>>44462689
>do the afterlife need belief to exist too? i
Probably? It's hard to say. The afterlife seems to share space though.

>>44463991
Sumireko is way stronger than your average outsider though. It took a coalition of people to genuinly endager her.

>>44463944
Not really, no. The human villagers in canon are consistently shown as being insanely morale and good natured.

>>44464111
PMISS literally makes it clear the exact opposite is true.

>>44464164
Cute.

>>44464234
It's the final excuse of youkai apologesists.

>>44464906
> but to claim that it's as bad as our world is ridiculous
I agree. It's way worse in every possible way.

Also, why do you assume you can't reach Buddhist enlightenment in the outside world?

>>44469185
Shut up, Fortune Teller.

>>44465333
Depends. Rumia is a straight up loli. Mystia sounds like a psychotic serial killer. Yukari is mature and dignified but with a hint of danger.

>>44465534
Kanako is a self absorbed twat. In fact, most of the people who dislike the outside world are biased as fuck and typically pretty awful people.

>>44465801
It is mostly just propaganda. The nature of the universe is closer to Youkai and gods simply being a means to a end. A problem for humanity to overcome.

>>44469202
FS deserved better.

>>44465619
>"x characters are evil and y characters are good no matter how you look at it"
It's pretty hard to defend most Touhou characters. Yukari is a child serial killer.

>>44469240
What if the children deserved it?

>>44469252
Child murder is always wrong.

>>44468996
Before Hecatia makeover

Can the cutesoufags please fuck off? Thousands of lines of boring text trying to gaslight people that youkai are not dangerous or partially reformed monster is not really working

>>44469657
So canon bores grimsokyofags and scares cutesokyofags? Good to know.

>>44469735
In canon outsiders are literally abducted to be murdered. Yeah, villagers are merely opressed and kept in a concentration camp. But you or I would be violently murdered.

>>44469735
Maybe in your imagination, just like the rubbish your shat here

Youkai eat humans; they will continue to eat humans in gensokyo

>>44469240
For Yukari I guess it depends on whether you would consider her entirely responsible for the deaths of the people she brings, the outside world humans are usually refereed to as being suicidal or having committed a grievous crime, and PMiSS says they usually let Youkai eat them.
I imagine Yukari's logic is something like, "well they're going to die anyways, there's no harm in me making sure some Youkai eat is there?" I can understand why she'd make that choice, especially to her who might value Youkai and human lives equally, sacrificing one person to make sure others survive.
That's not me defending her, just me trying to puzzle out her reasoning and the moral dilemma which causes the actions we see of her.

>>44469848
Being suicidal does not mean you will actually kill yourself, being a criminal doesn't mean you want or should die, and finally it's mentioned that some of the people she abducts are simply easily missed. Hell, considering Sumireko ended up in Gensokyo as a child once and the entire origin of the term spirited away it's very likely a lot of her victims are children. I certainly doubt she would excuse any of that with "Well, they would die anyway".

I just don't think she cares. The lives of humans mean nothing to her. You could call that a Youkai mentality, but I hardly think that's a excuse. I certainly doubt she even views the matter as a moral dilemma considering she's hinted to abduct and kill people for her own entertainment as well.

>>44469923
Sumirenko goes to Gensokyo of her own will, or rather ability, she was born with psychic powers and has fantasy syndrome, and I think she would need an excuse to kill people, she may be a Youkai now, but she was human and from what we've seen maribel isn't some total psychopath that does not value human life.
The barrier also accepts everything that's rejected, even people, so for people who've been rejected by human consensus are accepted into Gensokyo without anyone's permission.
>abduct and kill people for her own entertainment as well.
I'd be interested to see this.

>>44469994
>Sumirenko goes to Gensokyo of her own will
She didn't back then, I can't find where, maybe in CoLA, but she did mention she once woke up in a strange place which may or may not be Yakumo residence.

>>44470045
Sumi still has fantasy syndrome, and even the, Yukari's actions to Sumireko probably can't be used as evidence either way since she's the grandmother of Renko and thus most of her interactions with Yukari fall into "Timetravel paradox nonsense," category and Yukari's actions would be heavily colored by her memories of Renko.

>>44469775
>>44469793
All of those are true, and none of those contradict what I said. Also
>Youkai eat humans; they will continue to eat humans in gensokyo
is misleading. Only two species are mentioned to actually need human produce to survive: vampires and kappa, and in kappa's case it's because of Gensokyo's lack of sea salts. Most youkai are just omnivrous/carnivorous and not very picky about it. Of course, eating people generates fear, and mentally unstable people that tend to be spirited away are said to taste better, so you are right about that it might still happen even if all youkai will find a way to live on fear, and I do feel some of them like Remilia might just continue like usual to "keep status" or whatever.
>>44470096
You put too much faith in "Yukari is Maribel" theory, we have no way of knowing the extent of their connection.

>>44469994
>Sumirenko goes to Gensokyo
Doesn't seem to be teh case far as we can tell. And, again, the term spirited away refers to children going missing and Yukari herself brags about keeping children in her home.

>but she was human and from what we've seen maribel isn't some total psychopath that does not value human life.
Assuming Maribel really is Yukari. She certainly has some distance to fall, but it's not impossible she goes full Anakin Skywalker.

>even people,
So they can be eaten.

>>44470214
>is misleading.
Not really. Anybody that ends up in Gensokyo is probably going to die horribly.

>>44469185
>It's the final excuse of youkai apologesists.
To me it sounds more like the people who where shitting on gensoukyou, might be wrong tho.
>>44469232
Dunno transforming into a youkai and rubbing it into Reimu's face is a massive fail.
>>44469240
By judging non humans in a different way it's possible. If we count different species then everyone who ever ate chicken nuggets might fit in the child serial killer thing.
>>44469923
>Being suicidal does not mean you will actually kill yourself
Those that end in the road of reconsideration are suicidal people that regain their will to life, sure they could get killed by youkai but it might better than the efforts the japanese government puts to fight depression.
>being a criminal doesn't mean you want or should die,
I don't know a lot of people seem to want to exterminate youkai for their crimes, but maybe I missed the point.
>>44470860
>Yukari herself brags about keeping children in her home.
I guess I completely missed that in canon.
But not all missing children are youkai's fault, there are certain humans in the outside world that also seem to be somewhat fond of kids.... or maybe that's also the youkais fault somehow.

>>44470860
>Doesn't seem to be teh case far as we can tell. And, again, the term spirited away refers to children going missing and Yukari herself brags about keeping children in her home.
I don't think she actually eats, or kills the children through, spiriting away seems to be a known factor to an extant and knowledge of Gensokyo seems to exist on some level in the outside world. Also why choose to kill children, the less moral option, when she has easier tagets which would be missed less?
Yukari is also a cowardly liar who does a lot to keep up the appearance of being a very Youkai like Youkai, we also known some spirting away is caused by psychic humans with fantasy syndrome.

>Assuming Maribel really is Yukari. She certainly has some distance to fall, but it's not impossible she goes full Anakin Skywalker.
It's a theory I believe, but I don't really see her fall as being like Anakin's; my headcannon is after she looses Renko, her only friend, she ends up stranded in the past and has to make moral compromises to survive, eventually she attains some goal, be it preserving Fantasy, changing the nature of Youkai, or saving Renko, that he can't accomplish in a human lifespan so she sacrifices her humanity and becomes a Youkai, making even more compromises in the name of the greater good.
This is partially influence by Suika's and Kasen's opinion of her, that she's primarily awkward and cowardly respectively, and that fact that while Kasen does not have the same goal and her and isn't on her side, she doesn't act against Yukari, which I think she would do if Yukari was evil.

>So they can be eaten.
I think like most things around the creation of Gensokyo and the barrier, it's multifacted; Okina is a god of outcasts so would want them allowed entry, Yukari seems to be a believer in Gensokyo as a place for everyone and would want food for Youkai, Kasen would want the chance of these people having a better life, and we don't know the motives of the 4th sage.

What prevents youkai from uniting and forming a global government of their own? I bet they could actually conquer humanity if they were all coordinated

>>44471804
Most youkai are not social and/or don't give a fuck about anything other than existing

>>44471804
Youkai are currently enough of a majority to where they'd lose, this is because they chose to not exterminate humanity or rule over them. In other terms, Gensokyo exist because they already made the choice not to act out their design intent as ordained by the Lunarians.
Not only that, but as creatures of human belief they are affected by human consensus, since humans believe Youkai do not exist, and as such they are weakened or straight up die in the outside world.

Grimsokyofags are deranged.

Where the fuck was it ever said that Yukari abducts and/or murders children specifically?

>>44471473
>and knowledge of Gensokyo seems to exist on some level in the outside world.
...Eh? No, it doesn't.

>I don't think she actually eats, or kills the children through,
Again, she literally brags about keeping them in their home.

>Also why choose to kill children, the less moral option, when she has easier tagets which would be missed less?
Because children often end up getting lost which makes it easy for them to vanish without a trace. They might not be easily missed like others, but their often get into situations where they could go missing very easily.

>we also known some spirting away is caused by psychic humans with fantasy syndrome.
When was that mentioned?

>This is partially influence by Suika's and Kasen's opinion of her, that she's primarily awkward and cowardly respectively, and that fact that while Kasen does not have the same goal and her and isn't on her side, she doesn't act against Yukari, which I think she would do if Yukari was evil.
I like Suika, but she isn't exactly a good girl. Especially considering her past as one of the greatest terrors of Japan. As for Kasen, she's openly desiring the barrier to be torn down which would totally go against what Yukari wants. Most likely she just can't make a move against her or Okina because she would lose pretty quickly.

>I think like most things around the creation of Gensokyo and the barrier, it's multifacted;
Maybe? I doubt any of them desire anything good though, expect Kasen who seems to have had a massive change of heart at some point considering she actively believes creating Gensokyo was a mistake. Even Okina might be more motivated by finding more potential servants than any kind of care for outcast.

>>44473522
Mostly her dialogue in PCB, the term "Spirited away" referring to children going missing, and mentions that she attacks people from the outside world.

>>44471804
1: Youkai are mostly lone wolfs. 2: It's hard to form a global government when the only yokai around are in Japan and not even all of it. 3: In a all out war they would most likely utterly lose.

>>44474055
>1: Youkai are mostly lone wolfs
Not completely true, youkai are capable of forming their own societies and communities as shown by the Kappa, the Tengu, the Onis and the Vampires
>2: It's hard to form a global government when the only yokai around are in Japan and not even all of it
Also not true, vampires are a species of youkai and are implied to be western in nature which means youkai from other world parts also exist
>3: In a all out war they would most likely utterly lose.
How would they lose? I mean sure they need humanity to exist but what prevent them from simply purging a large part of humanity while putting the remaining ones under their dominance? With the powers and abilities they have they could quite easily overwhelm the technology the outside world has

>>44474042
>Fantasy syndrome and the real world
Fantasy Syndrome literally causes people to spirit themselves away to Gensokyo, although Yukari calls this "humaning away", this term is also used to describe those with fantasy syndrome pulling things from Gensokyo into the real world.
This causes some information like the info Sumireko, Renko, and Maribel collect. In Mary's time people swap stories about Gensokyo and the supernatural, although Mary says a lot of them are fake.

>Kasen and Suika
Honestly I don't think Kasen wants to destroy the barrier, since the one time it's bright up is when Suika is testing her, and while she is not on Yukari's side she also does not try to stop her influence. I brought her and Suika's comments about Yukari up because they seem to have a good grasp on her and are presented as trustworthy authorities on information about her.

>Okina
This is my fault for not explaining. Okina is a god, she doesn't really "care" about them in a human sense. think of her like a computer, she executes her function and tries to maintain herself to the best of her ability, she while she might not care about outcasts like a human does, as a god of them she'll take steps to provide for them for what she feels is within reason.

>Again, she literally brags about keeping them in their home.
The context of her dialogue is her fucking with Reimu, and she eventually succeeds with saying that children and adults wash up at her house
With Reimu saying she better put everything she finds back, and she never talks about hurting either of them, saying they just wash up, as if by accident.

>>44474173
>Reimu
fuck meant Sakuya, but honestly this makes it less believable she's actually hurting them since she bows to Sakuya's wishes.
So the whole thing is just her having a fucked up sense of humor, if the situation was serius she'd probably just kill Sakuya and keep any possibly kidnapped humans.

>>44474203
Sakuya is a cold-hearted serial killer, Eiki call her out on it, people think her actions with the protagonists prove the opposite, the protagonists aren't even ordinary humans to begin with, Reimu is a dog of the sages, Marisa is a village outcast who wanted to become a magician, and so on

>>44474228
What? yeah she's blood thirsty, but that doesn't change what Zun literally wrote Sauya doing in this scenario.
And honestly Sakuya not being fine with even the possible tormenting and kidnapping of children makes sense, people have lines they won't cross, even theoretically and Sakuya's is children, apparently.

>>44474203
It reads like she was just fucking with Sakuya, but who really knows? PCB is old as fuck anyways and ZUN has changed character personalities hugely over time, so unless she literally admits to or is seen killing children it can't be said that she does.

>>44474251
So that means she wouldn't kill anyone in this thread, nice to know.

>>44474078
>their own societies and communities as shown by the Kappa, the Tengu, the Onis and the Vampires
The exception that proves the rule, and also not even true in the case of Vampires.

>vampires are a species of youkai and are implied to be western in nature which means youkai from other world parts also exist
Eh... Arguably? Youkai are exclusively Japanese, but other supernatural creatures might exist elsewhere.

>How would they lose?
1: Youkai have a weakness to fire. Flamethrowers would chew through them like candy. 2: Their abilities are heavily overstated. Powerful though they might be, they would still lose pretty easily against a guy armed with a machine gun. Let alone entire armies of armored tanks, jet planes, and long range artillery. The only real evidence we have of them being strong enough to take out the outside world is PMISS, which deliberately oversells Youkai abilities. Even then, it's made pretty clear that Youkai would lose in a straight up war. 3: Try and remember Hecatia is leagues ahead of every single person in Gensokyo. She has, what, a few million followers in the outside world? Imagine a actual proper deity, they would literally be such a league of their own it wouldn't even be a contest. 4: Humans are insanely quick on the uptake. They would find any weakness youkai have, which are many, and start exploiting them within moments. 5: No navy. Even if they could somehow occupy Japan, they wouldn't be able to do shit outside Japan.

>>44474173
>Fantasy Syndrome literally causes people to spirit themselves away to Gensokyo
Was that exclusive to psychics?

>In Mary's time people swap stories about Gensokyo and the supernatural, although Mary says a lot of them are fake.
I always assumed that wasn't specifically about Gensokyo. Rumors of magical places exist all the time. Hell, and I know this is a very unreliable source, but the PCB prologue explains that most people that end up in Gensokyo just assume they ended up in a different kind of magical place.

>Honestly I don't think Kasen wants to destroy the barrier
She seems to be sincere about.

>I brought her and Suika's comments about Yukari up because they seem to have a good grasp on her and are presented as trustworthy authorities on information about her.
Arguably, but Kasen downright despises her while Suika is a bit of a twat herself. Way more relaxed than Yukari, but still kind of a troublemaker and unquestionably a retired monster. Assuming she still did everything the mythological Shuten Doujin did.

>she while she might not care about outcasts like a human does, as a god of them she'll take steps to provide for them for what she feels is within reason.
She's at the very least willing to hand them over to Remilia. Which shows she doesn't care much.

>>44474203
> if the situation was serius she'd probably just kill Sakuya and keep any possibly kidnapped humans.
Not really. The situation is not serious for her. Abducting and killing humans is just something she does to entertain herself. Sakuya seems to take it pretty serious.

>>44474251
I could actually buy Sakuya having a soft spot for children considering she's basically Remilia and Flandre's caretaker.

>>44474272
> so unless she literally admits to or is seen killing children it can't be said that she does.
It's hinted at in PMISS as well, at the very least that she attacks outsiders. It's also mentioned Youkai like to toy around with captured outsiders, which goes pretty well with the behavior she brags about in PCB. Granted, even PMISS is decades old by now. In general though, pretty much everything we learn about Yukari paints her as a pretty horrible person. She abuses Ran, is disliked by basically everybody, is fairly open about murdering people to feed Youkai. Nothing ever seems to imply she would be above murdering people for her own amusement.

>>44477999
>Was that exclusive to psychics?
Yes? Probably, that's how I read it. But psychics are still from the outside world and do from what we know, share their findings; in fact, I don't think we have a case of an Outside World psychic ever choosing to keep their secrets about the supernatural entirely to themselves.

>Kasen and Suika.
I don't really see Kasen as despising Yukari; yeah, she dislikes her, but she's shown a willingness to work amicably with Yukari, and the worst Kasen has to say about her is that she's a coward, and has a different end goal.
Both the scene of Kasen and Suika and Kasen with Yukari being framed as tests for her, due to her leaving Gensokyo for personal reasons.
My interpretation of their relationship is that while they don't share goals or beliefs, they aren't seriously opposed, After all with how uptight Kasen is I don't see her tolerating the presence of a person she despises as much as she tolerates Yukari.

>She's at the very least willing to hand them over to Remilia. Which shows she doesn't care much.
The SDM, as seen in Forbidden Scrollery, seems to have their own outside-world connections, which they use to supply and although she has a different motive than Yukari, she doesn't take any steps themselves with humans.
As well as anything that catches Remila's fancy, like a Tupai, which ends up being a chupacabra.

>Not really. The situation is not serious for her. Abducting and killing humans is just something she does to entertain herself. Sakuya seems to take it pretty seriously.
My mistake for not fully explaining myself; If Yukari was serious about kidnapping children, she has no reason to bend to Sakuya's whims.
She also never says she kidnaps children, or adults for that matter, just that they wash up, Sakuya makes the assumption she's kidnapping them and demands they are put back.
Further context earlier in the conversation has her saying the things in her house are not worthwhile and also nice, proceeding to list her furniture, she eventually says.
>(Yukari)But sometimes things wash up on the shore.
>(Sakuya) .. Is there a sea around here?
>(Yukari) Like human children. Or adults.
>(Sakuya)You'd better return them to where they were.
Given the context of the scene I take away two things; one is that Yukari is trying to get a rise out of Sakuya, and the second is that she's evaluating Sakuya's character.

>PMiSS
Akuya assumes Yukari attacks outsiders based on her not attacking human villagers, We know she greets people who are suicidal and murderers, but we don't really have any reason to believe she torments people for the sake of it.
Other than joking around and making fun of people, she actually never seems to go out of her way to cause people harm just for the sake of it.
The same article on Yukari paints her as a teller of tall tales, which we can see in WaHH where she and Kasen paint Yukari as a villain to be defeated to give Reimu peace of mind, something Yukari doesn't need to do.
Since the situation Involves Sumireko we can't really say anything about Yukari choosing not to kill her, since if Yukari is Mary, she probably wouldn't harm Sumi, no matter what. But that doesn't give her a motive for lying to Reimu when she could, just torment her and still fix the issue like she did in Cannon.

>>44477999
>>44480407

>Ran
Ran is a bit of an odd case, I think it's similar to her and Sakuya's conversation in PCB, mainly that she's trying to get a rise out of Aya, as well as Aya's normal stretching of the truth.
Yukari for her part does not consider herself hitting Ran with an umbrella animal abuse, her explanation being she is a Shikigami and she shouldn't be going out of her way to attack people for personal reasons.
Further context would be after the protagonists of PCB beat up Chen, Ran is angered and rampages into the nether world and attacks the protagonist, in the article she accidentally reveals one of Ran's orders "Do not attack humans," and by disobeying her orders weakened herself since shikigami gets weaker the farther away they are from their masters and the more orders they disobey, so she's disciplining Ran because she was concerned about her.
Furthermore, Aya has a somewhat patronizing attitude towards Ran considering her just an Animal, when even Reimu clocked her as an Animal Spirit in their first interaction, with her even name-dropping the Animal Realm. When the reality is Ran is a Shikigami, an animal spirit, and a nine-tailed fox, Yukari even points out how self-centered Aya is being, of course, Yukari Yukari torments Aya by jokingly threatens to turn her into a Shikigami.

>is fairly open about murdering people to feed Youkai. Nothing ever seems to imply she would be above murdering people for her own amusement.
Although she provides food for the Youkai, it doesn't seem she actually murders them beforehand; after all, some do get to the human village, and Reimu has to send some back, if Yukari really wanted a person dead there is nothing they could do against her.
From the information we do know, it seems they are ported to a weak spot in the barrier, either around Hakurei shrine, the Netherworld entrance, Yukari's house, or the road of Reconsideration, and left to their own devices.
This way they are able to make it to the Shrine or Village, but still have a chance of being eaten by Youkai, which fits with Yukari's cowardly nature; she's unwilling to kill people herself and being a coward who wants an excuse for her actions allows the ported humans and Youkai to do as they do, so she can always say "Well it's not my fault the Youkai chose to eat the human, the human was just unlucky, they did consent to being eaten anyways, there was nothing it could do."
A fitting excuse for a morally compromised coward like Yukari.

>>44477999
>I could actually buy Sakuya having a soft spot for children considering she's basically Remilia and Flandre's caretaker.
means nothing, they are both vampires who are 5 centuries old and regularly drink the blood of humans, Flandre even eat pastries which were made from human meat, Sakuya might not even be sensitive to what she does considering it's implied that she's lived too many years for Remilia to deem it fitting to call her human (she's implied to be a century old)

>>44480407
>. But psychics are still from the outside world and do from what we know, share their findings
Sumireko flat out mentions nobody takes her seriously despite having actual photos.

>After all with how uptight Kasen is I don't see her tolerating the presence of a person she despises as much as she tolerates Yukari.
It's hard to say just because Yukari could probably kill her if she tried. At the very least I never get the sense she likes dealing with Yukari.

>The SDM, as seen in Forbidden Scrollery, seems to have their own outside-world connections
Yes. But the vampire contract is pretty well established as a idea. I doubt that's how they get people to eat.

>she has no reason to bend to Sakuya's whims.
She did just lose a Spellcard duel. Like I said, if she does just kill people for funnies then it makes sense she would be so apathetic about it.

>Given the context of the scene I take away two things; one is that Yukari is trying to get a rise out of Sakuya, and the second is that she's evaluating Sakuya's character.
Neither one is necessary exclusive with her also killing people.

>but we don't really have any reason to believe she torments people for the sake of it.
Youkai are supposed to torment people for the sake of it, that's part of their nature. One of the most consistent things about Yukari is that she's a very youkai like youkai.

>>44480416
>Yukari for her part does not consider herself hitting Ran with an umbrella animal abuse, her explanation being she is a Shikigami and she shouldn't be going out of her way to attack people for personal reasons.
Not exactly. Her reasoning is mostly that Ran doesn't function as well if she isn't following her orders. It's closer to somebody smacking a computer because it's not functioning properly. Either way, it's less concern and more simply the fact that her tool isn't functioning optimally.

>A fitting excuse for a morally compromised coward like Yukari.
It's possible that's how she views it, but she certainly doesn't give much indication of that nature. She flat out refers to the people she brings to Gensokyo as food supply.

>>44480649
To be sure, but the fact she does show some concern over the people Yukari abducted might hints at a softer side. As much as I like the idea of Sakuya as a serial killer, and by all accounts she is one, it doesn't really square her behavior there.

>Sumireko flat out mentions nobody takes her seriously despite having actual photos.
So? that doesn't change the fact that knowledge of Gensokyo exists on some level in the outside world. Not to mention Mary publishes a book about it under.

>It's hard to say just because Yukari could probably kill her if she tried. At the very least I never get the sense she likes dealing with Yukari.
I'd have to agree the two definitely don't get along, although I'm less certain who would win in a straight-up fight since we rarely see characters performing at their peak no holds barred.

>Yes. But the vampire contract is pretty well established as an idea. I doubt that's how they get people to eat.
Well, it could be, but it also couldn't, I don't see why they couldn't get food from their own sources other than humans in Gesokyo.

>She did just lose a Spellcard duel. Like I said, if she does just kill people for funnies then it makes sense she would be so apathetic about it.
Yeah, but she's Yukari Yakumo; if she chose to break the rules, no one would find out if she didn't want them to just dump the body wherever, not to mention the Spellcard rules are a gentleman's agreements of sorts, which Yukari is presumably one of the enforcers of.

>Neither one is necessarily exclusive with her also killing people.
Neither is exclusive, but both levels aren't proof of her killing children. Which is what I'm looking for.

>Youkai are supposed to torment people for the sake of it, that's part of their nature. One of the most consistent things about Yukari is that she's a very youkai like youkai.
I've always had doubts about that; she puts on the airs of being a Youkai-like-Youkai, but I also don't trust Yukari at all, so when I see her putting a lot of effort into something like this, the narrative calls attention to the fact she doesn't randomly attack people, combined with the fact she used to be human gives me my doubts about her.
Combined with Mary's existence, I view her mainly as a Human-turned-Youkai, so she would need a reason for her Youkai-like actions, as well as turning into a Youkai, and she would need excuses for those actions.
If she was just a Youkai, or if she wasn't Mary I wouldn't really question her behavior at all since then she'd be just a Youkai-like-Youkai. Not to mention Mary's powers are genetic, so even if Yukari isn't Mary, that means she's related to Mary who shares the same powers as hers.
Although you could always say she just raped some random human and gave birth to their child for Youkai reasons.

>Not exactly. Her reasoning is mostly that Ran doesn't function as well if she isn't following her orders. It's closer to somebody smacking a computer because it's not functioning properly. Either way, it's less concerning and more simply the fact that her tool isn't functioning optimally.
Yukari says
"By following my will, Ran can obtain power equal to my level. Therefore, if she properly follows my orders, it would be impossible for her to lose. If she acts on her own, her power will be weakened to a degree that could not compare in the least. Fighting in that state would be nothing more than foolishness."
> Aya: "What if she was sure she could win like that?"
>"With a more reliable method for victory on hand, what need is there to choose a hazardous one? That would only end up with Ran in danger. That is why unless I am somewhat strict in my teaching, it would not be of any benefit to her."
Which seems to be a concern, at least to me.
Not to mention, Yukari seems to trust Ran to act independently of her, as shown in Ran's ending in UDoALG, where Ran lies to Yukari, but Yukari allows it to pass and for Ran to act as she wills.
Not to mention Yukari goes out of her way to socialize with Ran, including her in the celebration she has with the others in SSiB, after her convoluted moon plans succeed.
I think she's clearly shown care for Ran, even if she's not great at expressing it.

>>44481301
>>44482766
>fuck

>>44480649
If Sakuya is 100 years old then why doesn't she act mature and is childish like Marisa and Reimu?

>>44481310
Shiki looked into Sakuya's soul with her mirror, and doesn't call her some deranged murderer. Which would have been the first thing a judge of hell should of critisized. Then there is her creepy jokes about abducting people, but she says she isnt being serious and is just that bad at talking with people.
So I doubt she kills people, but she does cut up their corpses to make them into food for the monsters she works for.

>>44482766
>that doesn't change the fact that knowledge of Gensokyo exists on some level in the outside world. Not to mention Mary publishes a book about it under.
Doesn't Mary get a fairly negative response to her book?

>I'd have to agree the two definitely don't get along, although I'm less certain who would win in a straight-up fight since we rarely see characters performing at their peak no holds barred.
That's fair.

>I don't see why they couldn't get food from their own sources other than humans in Gesokyo.
Mostly because the vampire contract renders that largely pointless.

>which Yukari is presumably one of the enforcers of.
That's my point. Maintaining the validity of the spellcard rules is more important than having to give up her toy.

>Neither is exclusive, but both levels aren't proof of her killing children.
They are proof that, at the very least, she keeps children in her house.

>the narrative calls attention to the fact she doesn't randomly attack people, combined with the fact she used to be human gives me my doubts about her.
As likely as it is, her being a former human is still just a theory. Even if she was a human, she might have just gone off the deep end. Humans can be serial killers as well.

>Which seems to be a concern, at least to me.
Eh... maybe. I don't know, she rarely comes across as very affectionate or even personal. At the very she seems to view Ran way more as a tool or a servant than a friend.

>>44482989
She doesn't need to considering the company she keeps.

>>44483042
>Shiki looked into Sakuya's soul with her mirror, and doesn't call her some deranged murderer
I'm going to assume you mean Eiki, and she flat out says that she's very cold towards human.

>but she does cut up their corpses to make them into food for the monsters she works for.
I don't think that's much better and it kind of raises the question of who does do the murder. I don't see Remilia lowering herself to grunt work.

>>44454132
>I think it's less that the villagers feel safe and more that your average youth literally doesn't care if they live or die. Their lives are utterly meaningful and they know it. Literally the only way they can feel any kind of joy or excitement is to potentially get a Youkai to rip their throat out, and that's assuming they aren't just trying to suicide by cop. If there was a trend of teenagers today jumping into a lion cage that doesn't mean lions aren't dangerous or feared. It just means there are a lot of very suicidal teenagers.
Well that's terrible, teenagers usually need a healthy dose of freedom and rebelliousness to be able to grow, in a land in gensokyo where everything is oppressive I can't imagine how that would mess up the mental development of teenagers

>>44483065
>Sakuya is a butcher and uses human meat.

While I'm not going to argue on the matter, it always dumbfounded me where this claim came from. In EoSD Flan talks about only ever seeing humans as "food", but their "food" is normal cakes, cookies, tea (which can be said to be blood in the sisters' case, but bare with me on that), and the like. The sisters have been seen multiple times eating normal human food that humans eat with no side effects or repurcussions. I forget which book it was from, but Remi makes it a point to whine to Reimu about how "all the food in the mansion has blood in it". Reimu promptly shuts her up because if Remi keeps talking then Reimu is obligated to get involved, which is besides the point I'm making. Flan doesn't know how to control her strength when she gets into feeding mode and blows the victim away. She's never seen "humans" as anything more than food until meeting the protags. Sakuya has been there so long that she doesn't "qualify" as one, and in CDS was under the impression that Flan was trapped (like we all were). Sakuya is responsible for bringing the food, not necessarily for cooking it, but to suggest she's not is pretty stupid so there's that. This is what we know, and correct me if I'm wrong.

>Sakuya isn't "human" anymore due to longevity.
>She's the head maid and presides over the fairy maids, who are responsibe for cooking and not cleaning up-CDS.
>Flan has only ever seen "humans" as foodstuffs. Sakuya hasn't been around Flan her whole life, so this checks out considering classification and ignorance.
>Remi states "all food in the mansion has blood in it", not "made of humans.
>Remi drinks "red" tea, which is just black tea in classification, but could stand for actual cups of blood.
>This goes further in that Sakuya has found a substitute plant that acts like human blood for the sisters.
>Youkai are conceptual. If tea is "plant blood" then there's a substitute or backup for the real deal.
>They're light eaters, almost never killing the victim from loss but more from the side effect of ghoulification from the bite.
>Flan can be seen drinking a champagne glass full of blood alongside her meal in CDS as well.
>The Vampire contact provides food for them from outside. It never states in what way. The other Youkai eat the body, we know this.
>You keep meat fresh by draining the blood. More likely, the food is drained and separated into more manageable parts and Sakuya gets barrels of the stuff to add like a sauce.
>If nothing else, everyone out here donates blood that ends up getting thrown out in the medical field, so it's possible the SDM views it like vintage wine they can pick from in neat little bags.
>Youkai have to lie and hype themselves up to keep fear generating. Remi lies a lot and Sakuya goes with whatever. The most probable outcome is that they don't eat long pork, but use the sauce that gets delivered, or conversely uses blood bags from outside and lies.
Sakuya doesn't butcher innocent little boys and girls , a la Jack the Ripper. But she does put blood in everything the sisters eat. Probably stops time and slips it in when Remi is out in public to not break character.

>>44483052
>Doesn't Mary get a fairly negative response to her book?
Doctor Latency's books seem fairly popular at least in the underground scene, with everybody at the "Old Adam" know of her pen name, and the bartender being a psychic(presumably) who clocks her as being Latencey when she arrives.

>That's my point. Maintaining the validity of the spellcard rules is more important than having to give up her toy.
>They are proof that, at the very least, she keeps children in her house.
Sorry, I meant that, if she wanted to break the rules, she's probably the one person who could get away with it scot free, and we never see these supposed children talks about.
Although I will admit a very Youkai-like-Youkai has no reason not to kidnap children, but that brins me to my next point.

>As likely as it is, her being a former human is still just a theory. Even if she was a human, she might have just gone off the deep end. Humans can be serial killers as well.
I guess my biggest is her being just a Youkai-like-Youkai, is she's not human she doesn't really need a motive for what she does, other than she's a "Youkai-like-Youkai"
As Zun said in his interview of LoLK, hating the lunarians is a default political position, so that wouldn't mean much either; my point being is she's just a Youkai-like-Youkai, that's all she is, she essentially has no backstory or motivation other than her being a Youkai.
Her just being a pyscho is just a lesser version of this because psycho's don't need motives other than them being psychos, of course psycho Yukari would still need a motive for hating the loonies.
Not to mention all the similarities between her and Mary.

>Eh... maybe. I don't know, she rarely comes across as very affectionate or even personal. At the very she seems to view Ran way more as a tool or a servant than a friend.
Ran does work for Yukari, so there's that barrier of master-servant relationship there, I do think they get along and trust each other, but the way I see it their relationship is mostly professional.

>>44483225
>can't imagine how that would mess up the mental development of teenagers
I mean, I know she's a special case but look at Marisa.

>>44483225
Well that's just one perspective on human kids attending the concert, it's equally valid to say them enjoying the music is proof of the protection and freedom they enjoy, that they are able to par take in the same activity some Youkai do as equals.
The context of the concerts being brought up is the religious authorities in Gensokyo moral panicking about punk music.
But, the performers themselves talk about their music as an expression of rebelliousness against repression, not idealization of suicide. So the comedy element from seeing people moral panic/being annoyed with music and the claims of the performers themselves are probably what were ment to take away from this.
Not anything in particular on whether humans value their lives of not, which is kind of silly when you think about it, using a music festival to analyze whether these random human village place value on their own lives or not.

>>44483579
>This goes further in that Sakuya has found a substitute plant that acts like human blood for the sisters.
I don't remember that.

>The Vampire contact provides food for them from outside. It never states in what way.
The exact words used are: "The details of this contract are that the youkai will offer them humans from which to feed"

That implies they are given the whole human. It's technically possible that they are given blood and not corpses. But nothing much seems to imply that. At the very least the people they are given are 100% killed considering their deaths are of no consequence.

>>44483601
>Doctor Latency's books seem fairly popular at least in the underground scene
Yeah, but in mainstream science it's largely totally dismissed.

>Sorry, I meant that, if she wanted to break the rules, she's probably the one person who could get away with it scot free
She could but she doesn't get much out of it. Hell, if you want to be petty, following weird self imposed rules is very Youkai like as well.

>she essentially has no backstory or motivation other than her being a Youkai.
Arguably, yeah. If her nature is just "She a Youkai" then there isn't much depth to her character. She's just a evil person who does evil things. Compared to Okina and Kasen it's pretty likely she's the most straightforward in her motivation. She wants to keep on murdering people for kicks and Gensokyo provides her a means to do so without any real consequences.
The thing about Yukari's character, if you want to be precise, is that we don't know a lot about her. Most of the information we get is speculation or how other characters relate to her. The closest thing she has to a redeeming character trait is her friendship with Yuyuko. Who is, for the most part, a fairly unambiguously good character that is way more bright than she seems. She's also gone downhill pretty significantly, at least when it comes to how capable she is. Going from the one Phantasm boss that was basically the strongest person in all of Touhou to a lesser Okina. There's a element of her just being kind of pathetic in a lot of recent appearances that really wasn't there in a lot of the old lore I use. Mind you, even in her newer appearances she is still very cold hearted and downright sociopathic at times.

>but the way I see it their relationship is mostly professional.
It seems to be basically professional. Which is very much NOT the case for Ran and Chen.

>>44484210
Yukari's power has always been implied in canon to be far lesser than she presents it to be, starting from one of PCB's endings where on the topic of the Great Hakurei Barrier Yuyuko remarks that she doesn't think it's something Yukari could make. And since Yuyuko is both Yukari's closest friend and a really observant individual in general, it's probably safe to assume she's right about that. Later depictions just build off that, except nowadays people are much more accepting of Yukari's limits.

Though now we're getting a lot of people who overestimate Okina like they did Yukari before, with people taking everything Okina claims at face value, such as the claim that she could recreate all of Gensokyo, even though Okina is just as deceptive as Yukari is, with that dishonesty being inherent to her nature as the secret god.

>>44484316
True. Still, I would argue narratively she's gone downhill pretty significantly. Part of that was just introducing more sages, granted.

>>44484346
That's really just Okina taking center stage and scheming far harder than Yukari ever did. When Kasen appeared, Yukari pretty much clowned on her completely.

>>44484210
>Yeah, but in mainstream science it's largely totally dismissed.
That doesn't really matter, the information is out there and people will believe what they're willing to believe after all, just like in real life.
My point wasn't really about if the information was accepted by humanity or the Grand Unified Theory, just that the information exists.

>Yukari
I would be more inclined to just believing her to just be a Youkai if we didn't have maribel, or Suika and kasen, as well as her actions in Forbidden Scrollery and lotus eaters, which while duplicitous untimely benefit everyone involved. Although i do agree, she is very pathetic, but I think a key part of that is how obsessed she is with keeping up her appearance, even to the point when she's trying to help somebody earnestly it comes out in the form of threats and convoluted schemes.

>>44484367
She also got clowned by a ghost and even Suika made fun of her. She's certainly a far cry from the mastermind she seemed to be at first.

>>44484387
>or Suika and kasen,
Why these two? If anything, the fact they are both Oni that knew each other actually makes it seem more likely they knew Yukari back during their "Terrorize Japan" years.

>but I think a key part of that is how obsessed she is with keeping up her appearance, even to the point when she's trying to help somebody earnestly it comes out in the form of threats and convoluted schemes.
I think most of her attempts at helping are largely self serving. Though the entire thing is made way more complex by the fact she's described as a massive attention whore. Meaning that even when she is doing something that is arguably good (I have my reservations about her actions in FS for reasons) she's still somewhat selfish.

The thread ended up being like 30% Zounose, 60% wall of text of whatever discussion it is now, and 10% of what the thread's actually about, if that.

>>44484497
>or Suika and kasen,
Dunno, they probably know her from that time, honestly I would be more supersized if she didn't have a terror of the night edgy phase, even Ran had one.
Although the Oni did used to live on Youkai mountain so they could've met then.

>FS
I understand having reservations about her actions in FS, but I have no idea what she would gain my manipulating the situation the way she did.
But yeah Yukari's still a bitch.

>>44484598
Well I've enjoyed it at least, hopefully others have enjoyed it as well.

>>44447147
>>44448472
>Also the one where Koishi gives Satori a lobotomy/brain damage
so what is the source, none of the image search results yield anything

>>44485341
It's by harakashi and it's called FREAKS OUT!, you can find it on E Hentai.

>>44485420
ty

>>44485420
damn theres a prequel doujin that isnt translated to english and i dont speak nip

>>44485774
oh shit i found a translation, here it is if anyone is interested
https://www.tsumino.com/Read/Index/23780?page=1
if anyone wants to put in the effort, it might be nice to put it up on e-hentai

>>44484598
I enjoyed the discussion and were glad it derailed into that instead of just Zounose.
The dark ass doujins where entertaining, but I guess there aren't that many grimdark ones if you don't count absurd levels of gore which seem to go more into fetish territory or are straight up porn.
Or maybe it's hard to not derail into morals.

>>44474055
i've always assumed youkai were just supposed to be asian in general, the japanese told stories of spirits from foreign countries all the time, only that their islands at the farthest edge of the world had the most of them

>>44484497
I have a hard time taking Mizuchi seriously since the plot bends over backwards to make her invincible and unstoppable, even rewriting established that states that divine spirits like Kanako supposedly being resilient to vengeful spirits (which is why she oversaw the whole nuclear reactor operation) to make everyone equally vulnerable.
Suika is just a dick, though.

>>44486378
I mean, it's the general problem of actually trying to make a villain in Touhou genuinly threatening when everybody has layers and layers of plot armor. I mean, what are we supposed to do? Have her try to posses Mystia?

>Suika is just a dick, though.
Eh, it's harsh but fair.

>>44486424
She's never going to be threatening since she's only ever putting people to sleep. If people actually died, Mizuchi would only need to avoid the dangerous big shots that could stop her to be a threat, but since Touhou isn't a franchise that would really kill off its characters, that's obviously impossible, which makes it all the more baffling to try to write a murder mystery story in this series.

Still, at the very least, her possessions should involve a lot more trickery to catch her victims in a vulnerable state, instead of just walking up to them and possessing them without any difficulty.