/jp/ - Otaku Culture

it's magical gohda chef

>>4375867
>it's magical pinball gohda chef

fix'd

>>4375857
That's not petals, that's not petals AT ALL.

I'll bite.

>Episode 6, Patch v0.1 by The Witch Hunt

wat?

thislooksshopped.png

wait, witch hunt became competent and hauled ass to release the patch in one day?

damn i am proud of them

>>4375857
>>4375857
>>4375857
>>4375857

WHAT

http://witch-hunt.com/news.html

hurp

>>4375910
Yeah, yeah, I know. But they didn't update the site at the same time when they released Episode 5.

>>4375910

Weren't there Beato Ani to Imouto in this scene?

# Translation: 3%
# Editing: 0%

>Translation: 3%
>Translation: 3%
>Translation: 3%
>Translation: 3%
>Translation: 3%
>Translation: 3%

>MOTHER FUCKING 3%

sigh...

>>4375939
Why must you tease me so?

;_;

>>4375924

>Anonymous of Germany

Are you the real deal?

OP, are you the translator from Witch-hunt?

>>4375939
>>4375857

FFFFFFFFFFFFFFF- OP

That reminds me I need to finish episode 6, but the whole "without love it can't be seen" stuff has been boring me.

>>4375942

Well yeah, I've been posting on and off for a while now, mostely in Umineko and Tenhou threads.

>>4376026
No, It's just a prank. I'm actually editing these pictures in photoshop.

Spoilers:

Using OnScripter is really fucking easy. These screen shots would take 5 minutes tops if you know the translation.

>>4376046

Spoilers:

Gohda can't use gold text as he is not the game master

>>4376056

Spoilers:

Shannon was using the gold text because she is Beatrice.

>>4376056
Spoilers:

Magical Gohda Chef can do whatever the fuck he wants

>>4376056

I do not believe you, sir.

>>4376056

Spoilers: In ep6 piece Beato was using Gold text.

>>4376078

Spoilers:

That's because she's the MOTHERFUCKING GOLDEN WITCH

ワケねェええええぇええェだらああぁああァあああ

>>4376087

Spoilers:

One of the 07 interviews said anyone who knew the truth could use gold text.

What's the relation between gold and red text? If one can say something in red, can he say it in gold and vice versa?

I decided to actually read some SS Van Dine. The Philo Vance character's philosophy is that psychological profiling is far more accurate than physical evidence in ascertaining guilt. After all, if a detective is capable of finding a clue, doesn't that suggest a criminal is capable of planting it?

>>4376108
no, gold text is more absolute and can't be twisted

>>4376115
Except that gold text needs to be used correctly for that. It can be inferior or superior to red text.

>>4376108

Gold text is used to express the real truth, with no wordplays allowed.
Red text is used to express aspects of the real truth, which can be interpreted in different ways that don't necessarily reflect the real truth.

>>4376108
Gold is stating a cold, hard fact that is "always" true regardless of which game it is. Consider anything in gold text a "law" by which all games must apply. In Chess, a golden rule would be bishops move diagonally.

Red is essentially perceived/limited truth. In Chess, a "red rule" would say "I used my bishop to capture your rook, three turns ago."

Golden text is made with the real Beatrice strong belief and knowledge.
Basically, because the real Beatrice is crazy, she really believes that filling that the "filling the cup" trick is magic.
And since she knows that Kinzo died prior to the game, the golden text also applies there.

>>4376110

That's exactly what the witch's side does in the games, plant clues in a very specific way.

>>4376134

yes

>>4376124
So, is it like this:
If I can say "Kanon is dead" in gold, I can always say it in red too
If I can say "Kanon is dead" in red, I can say it in gold only if I mean the Kanon we all know, and not some random man with this name or a fucking personality of other person?

>>4376124
>>4376126
Except that the golden text used for this childish trick basically deny this theory.
Golden text isn't a "hard cold fact", you are just looking at the easier solution.

>>4376138

What childish trick?

>>4376146
The filling the cup with petals trick.

>>4376153

>HE STILL BELIEVES THE OP'S PIC IS REAL

>>4376134
Red text uses Knox's rules, Gold text uses Van Dines rules.

>>4376157
It is.
* そなたが魔法にて、伏せたカップの中に黄金の花びらを生み出した。　見事
な魔法であったぞ。
In gold.

>>4376162
Oh and this is the only instance of golden text in episode 6.

>>4376157
The tesxt us real. It's said by Trolltrice.

>>4376169
*text is real

Fucking iPod keyboards.

>>4376162

Well, we still don't know what they mean by "magic". We have seen different kinds of magic exist, so it could not be proper magic at all.

HURR DURR IM THE GOLDEN WITCH BITCHES!

>>4376182

AFAIK it was a sleight of hand trick by Moetrice, so gameboard/real world magic really is just an embellishment, and Ryukishi is just hammering it home by giving a guarantee like this.

Seems to make sense that if red is the objective truth, gold is the subjective truth. I'm really glad that some guy from W-H posted this screenshot on here because I was tired of the bullshit theory that LOL GOLD=ABSOLUTE TRUTH.

>>4376220
No, that's what Erika said. But as Sakutarou said, IT is possible that Erika used a trick, whereas Beatrice really used magic.

>>4376283

>red is the objective truth, gold is the subjective truth

You got that backwards

>>4376328
It's not the scene of magic fight Maria vs Erika, it's several chapters later, when only Moetrice and Trolltrice are talking in the garden.

>>4376283
Impossible. Dlanor would not have accepted it as a proof for Kinzo's corpse. And red is NOT absolute.

>>4376346
hu okay, I will have to read this part again, it has been a long time

>>4376203
Good to know.

>>4376283
>>4376354

>Here's an interpretation which fits into the boundaries and themes of the Meta World.

>Gold Truth is a guarantee from the creator of the Tale concerning the premises of the story. Remember when Dlanor tried to trap Battler into a logic error using Kinzo's corpse and asking him to prove it was him using human means? Battler even admits it in Red. "There is no objective way to do this in the closed off Rokkenjima of 1986" Even if he has his Piece gather shit and investigate, it cannot be done. Dlanor's final move was pure bullshit, as Lambda states, "It cannot be done..with Red and Blue riight?" So Battler busted out a guarantee that overrides everything. Dlanor and Battler talked about this during tea, if the premise of the story includes hidden passages etc, Knox can't do shit about it. Many detective stories IRL are like this as well. You don't read John Dickson Carr's closed room novels looking for something mundane and everyday, the solutions in there are often mind bending, exotic and clever, but never mundane. That's the type of story he writes and premises that he uses.

>Because it's a guarantee, by default, it has the objective truth and cannot be used to deceive clauses as well. And because of that, it is "inferior" to Red, because any witch using it is basically giving the human side a fuckhuge weapon.

>>4376424
In that case, magic exists. According to gold text. I suppose I'm okay with this....

>>4376424
Doesn't explain the trick is real magic in gold though.

I think gold text is based on observational evidence. Based on such, it's stronger than red, which is literal truth, because it's determined entirely on something that's been seen and cannot be used to deliberately mislead. But because the observer can be deceived, it can be weaker.

Dlanor asked for Kinzo's corpse to be confirmed by the use of humans and disbarred the red as it's a supernatural technique. Battler has seen Kinzo's corpse at some point; he's certainly seen the burned one, but he saw unburned Kinzo in Ep2. As he was the detective in earlier episodes, he can guarantee the corpse.

I'm not entirely sure how to interpret the Beato Ep6 scene though, having not played it. If the trick was performed the same way as Maria's candy trick, it fits as long as the gold speaking Beato behaved the same way as Maria.

>>4376424
While this fits Ep5 fine, I'm not sure how you can call Ep6's gold text objective.

>>4376446
Except that it was really a trick, moe-Beatrice didn't use magic to fill the cup, we were shown that she used a very simple trick.

>>4376108
I think gold text is a logical conclusion draw from more than one red text.
In episode 5, Battler used gold as a conclusion from "nobody would mistake Kinzo on sight" and Knox 9th, to prove he was lying.

>>4376457

We were shown many things.

>>4376424
It's actually possible... Kinzo has six fingers on his feet, remember?

Well my theory is that the gold text is made from the true knowledge and memories of the real Beatrice.
Which is why it can only be used by those who know the truth and why it can be both weaker or stronger than the red text.

The real Beatrice knows that Kinzo is dead without a doubt and she really believes that the cup trick is real magic.

>>4376508

Why so best part of the series?

>>4376456

But there is no objective way to prove that the corpse is Kinzo. In Red. Identifying it by sight, even with Detective's Authority won't work. There's is absolutely no way to prove that it's Kinzo through human means.

I like how people are ignoring the image OP posted and making even more stupid theories about the gold.

>>4376520
please read
>>4376510

Personally, the golden text seems to me a pretty good hint to what the meta-world really is about.
At the very least it fits my theory.

>>4376536

A corpse can be prepared beforehand. Dlanor even brings this up in blue. Since it's usually burnt to a crisp, there really is no objective way to prove that it's him. And even if the burning is partial, like in EP2, that would still be enough to obscure the features and leave doubt.

It's impossible and Dlanor used this as her trump to trap Battler.

>>4376548
Nobody would mistake Kinzo on sight.

>>4376561

>>>/rs/_Problem_Anonymous?

>>4376543
Please explain.

>>4376565
that is not a truth

>>4376558

What about Kinzo's corpse?

>>4376558

Hence the burning.

Since Kinzo wasn't deep fried in EP2...lemme re-check that bit.

>>4376572
neither is beatrice laughing, but she can say that in red

Knox 8 and 10: there are no presented clues that Kinzo's corpse in 1-4 could be a prepared corpse of someone else, especially due to the six toe identifier, and a character can't be disguised as another without clues. I realise 10 is a stretch there.

>>4376573
It's still Kinzo, right? Even if he had his face destroyed and such.
The trick is that Battler didn't create a new red truth to explain why he could identify Kinzo's corpse, but rather used another one that already existed (in other words, the hint was already given before Dlanor sealed his red truth).

>>4376574
He still had 6 fingers when he was burned.

>>4376569
My theory, it uses ShKanontrice but replaces it with whoever you think Beatrice is:

Shannon somehow survived but she got even crazier, she lost all her memories and was taken in a psychiatric hospital under the name of "Maria".

Hachiyo Touya somehow met her and decided to uncover her mystery.
To do that she manipulated her into creating this "game" in her mind by influencing her into creating a few new personalities, that is Bernkastel and Lambdadelta, both based on Touya's previous work.

Everything that happens in Umineko is actually some sort of role playing game that Shannon play out alone from the beginning to the end, the main actors of the meta-world are separate personalities of her, yeah even Battler.
Touya managed to find the truth after "witnessing" the first 2 episodes and decided to influence Shannon into creating situations that are more varied, to rake more profit.

Later she found Ange on the island, probably contacted by Juza since they seem to know each other in episode 6, and decided to use her to influence Shannon's game even further.
Ange is already pretty crazy but Touya could have drugged her so that she could act out in this game.
In the end, Ange proved herself to be too much stimuli and was ejected from the game by Lambdadelta, the one personality who know what is up with this game.

>>4376606
The various personalities:
Beatrice = The personality who did whatever happened on Rokkenjima and regret it.

Battler = Personality who was created to protect the memory of the people who died on the island, Shannon gave her the form of Battler because he is the protector for her, the "knight in shining armor".

Bernkastel = Personality that Shannon created with Touya's influence, a personality who only exist to uncover the truth without caring about anything else.

Lambdadelta = Personality who symbolize Shannon's murderous feeling, she also took a "form" under the influence of Touya.

In episode 5, Battler found the truth, not only of what happened on Rokkenjima but also of what the meta-world really is about.
That's why he could use the golden text, this text is made from Shannon's true memory, experience and belief.

>>4376583

But wasn't the possibility of prepared corpses already brought up by Battler in EP1?

>Had the culprit prepared a fake body beforehand and disguised it to make it look like they'd died...when they'd actually hid somewhere after committing the crime...? ...It sounds ridiculous, but that doesn't mean it's an impossible trick.

Combine this with

>By the way, it seems that there is a possibility for this to occur in one out of every two thousand babies, so even though it's not usually seen, it isn't that rare at all.

The inner thoughts of a character can surely count as a clue.

It's improbable, but not impossible that a prepared corpse of Kinzo might be used. Else, Dlanor wouldn't even bring it up.

>>4376606

But Shannon always dies, and it's stated in red. If it's not true for her, it could be untrue for anyone else.

>>4376596

People lose their identifiers when they die. It's no longer just "Kinzo" but "Kinzo's corpse"

I think the Red is specific about things like that.

>>4376617
The red text was created by Shannon to make the game "logical", basically it's a set of rule that she has to follow when she make a new game.

What really happened on the island isn't something that the red text can influence, some people could have survived, the knox rule didn't have to be followed, etc...
Shannon when she creates the game have to follow the rule of fiction mystery but nobody said that the real world mysteries have to follow these rules.

I don't get it, doesn't the screenshot still shows gold=absolute truth?

aren't they standing in the magic realm/meta world, where magic is possible

>>4376615
Yes, it's impossible to disprove that in the human world.
However, the game that is Umineko is made of both worlds, human and magic. And we know throught the magic world that nobody could mistake Kinzo.
This is equivalent to saying that even if there was a body double in the human world, it would be imperfect and nobody would be stupid enough to fall for that.

>>4376624
>People lose their identifiers when they die.
This was never stated.

Silly, silly, Shkannontricefags. Your theory is ridiculously stupid.

>>4376674

>suggesting Shkannontrice is an obvious solution

>>4376646

Exactly. And what Dlanor is asking Battler is to prove it using Human Means. His piece should be able to prove that it was Kinzo in some way in order for him to prove that it's him. But it's not possible, since Pieces can't defeat Devil's Proof using the Red. Much less Piece Battler, who's an outsider to this whole business and has to use info from his senses.

Through Human Means, you cannot deny the existence of corpse X masquerading as Kinzo. What Dlanor was asking was impossible.

Can Battler really identify Kinzo by sight, especially if the corpse has been so burned that you can't tell it's gender? His narration during that scene wasn't even certain that it was Kinzo.

>>4376699
>implying it isn't
It's obviously stupid and will never happen, but Shkanon being the culprit is obvious.

>>4376710

No it isn't. If it wasn't for you faggots I wouldn't be thinking Shkanon was the culprit even after 5 episodes.

>>4376736
At least Kanon himself is suspicious. You can't deny that.

>>4375894
>>4375897
>>4375909
>>4375926
>>4376030
>>4376026
My god, seriously, get the fuck out of /jp/. Go to some other board. You guys are like fucking children.

>>4376700
What you are saying is exactly why the Knox rules exist.
You can't also disprove the existence of hidden doors in the human world. You need a point to start thinking reasonably.
The point here is that humans CAN identify Kinzo no matter what. Burning it wouldn't help at all (his sixth finger would still have its bones after the flesh was burnt, and there was no furnace who could give enough heat to burn his bones). This is a given truth you, as a reader, MUST accept if you want to believe this game is solvable.

Hasn't Shkannontrice been disproved several times already?

>>4376736
Give me a break. Both Kanon and Shannon are suspected since episode 1 if even if you've payed little attention to the story.

>>4376744

I dunno. I thought he was just the stereotypical cooldere guy.

>>4376124
>>4376126
>>4376120
>>4376115

Silly anons. As hinted in ep 5 gold text is truth backed up by verifiable facts. Battler can guarantee Kinzo's dead in gold because he knows where the body is, only Lambdadelta prevents him from spelling it out. As both Lambda and Bern allude to it's like in Roger Ackroyd, clues have been dropped telling you Battler knew that, only it was formulated in an ambiguous way.

Similarly, you can explain a magic trick in gold simply by knowing with absolute certainty how the trick is performed.

A game master can use gold because they set up the board, so they know where everything's supposed to be.

It's different from the red because red is an arbitrary truth that doesn't need to be justified (but can occasionally be), ie an elementary logic predicate. For example "true is the opposite of false" would be a red truth. It is utterly unprovable, and merely directly accepted as a fact, because without it you couldn't build any reasoning.

>>4376773

Whatever, maybe I'm just stupid.

>>4376764
ShKanontrice has never been disproved.

>>4376785
Your example doesn't make sense with the magic trick.
No reason why such a simple and childish hand sleigh could be called a "splendid example of magic" in gold.

>>4376796
I believe most unreasonable theories in this board are made by people who skipped throught the story without paying attention to details.
We wouldn't have to endure all that if they simply played the games one more time.
That being said, Kanon and Shannon can still be Beatrice. It's perfectly possible. They may even dress like each other. They can't, however, be the same person. This is the only thing anti-shkanontrice fags managed to prove.

>>4376815

It's easy. It's because Moe Beato understood Magic for what it is, as explained by Ange later that game.

>>4376700
I think R07 fucked up in introducing the gold text.
Dlanor's argument to deny the identity of Kinzo is broken and even violates her own rules, as in, Knox's 8th (No clues) and Knox's 10th (No doubles unless stated). Without blatantly obvious scientific devices, one can tell by its pelvis if it is a male or female, the polydactylia so characterisitc of Kinzo, and, perhaps, bone density.
Specifically, Dlanor fucked up in the sense that she suggested a prepared corpse beforehand with no previous evidence of it being present.
Unless, of course, she suggested it because there was some sort of foreshadowing we are ignoring, even until now?

>>4376828
Shannon and Kanon being the same person is fucking hard to disprove after episode 6.
Where are your proofs that they aren't the same for sure?

>>4376764
Several times actually.

>>4376828

When was that ever proven? Remember that episode 6 lowered the count of persons on the island by one so it is essential that they are the same person, if you cannot kill someone else.

>>4376846
It never was, at least I never saw anything close to disproving it.
But if you think you can, well try.

>>4376836
please read
>>4376760
And think of hidden doors. If Dlanor can go past the red truth, then Battler can also go past Knox and pull some shit with it.
And remember to look at the game with love.

>>4376815
Can be both simple and judged splendid. In fact most awesome tricks are deceptively simple, and magicians are putting complicated stuff around only to make you think the trick is more complex. Walking through a mirror? The mirror opens like a door. Making a truck disappear despite having audience members stand guard around it? The audience guys were accomplices and lied. And so on.

Episode 7 comes out next Comiket, no?

When's that?

>>4376903
august

>>4376844
>>4376856
>>4376873
Oh God, not this again.
Red text saying they both died in the 1st twilight in ep3, and saying the number of people were 6.
Erika saw them both in ep5.
Kanon died in episode 2 in Jessica's room, proclamed in red, Shannon could still be seem.
Go ahead and say something about the personality bullshit, it won't work in episode 3. Nobody could have moved the corpse since everybody was togheter.
Episode 6 did say that, the number of people in the start of the game is the same, but it was never said they have to be the same people every time.

>>4376903
>Comiket 78, will be held on August 13 to 15, 2010

>>4376831
But it doesn't explain how she can call it a "splendid example of magic".

The golden text was used twice, first time to guarantee the identity of Kinzo's corpse and second time to call a simple hand trick "magic".
Where is the correlation?

If it puts a guarantee on something that shouldn't be provable without lots of clues, it should be a hard cold fact.
Yet it can also call a simple trick, magic.

Personally I'm sticking to my earlier theory.
>>4376511

Golden text can be used by those who know the truth, it can be stronger or weaker than the red text.
That's because the golden text is made from the Beatrice of the real world memories and belief.
It doesn't need any proofs because it's something that she lived herself, she saw Kinzo dead but she also can believe in some lie or delusion.

>>4376903
august

>>4376882
well yeah,as Dlanor mentioned it's not guaranteed the story is actually following Knox in all games, possibly only in the ones Erika appears because she's a classic detective. Some have also put forth the hypothesis the episodes written by AuAu follow Knox and the first two, written by a different person, don't.

>>4376917
>>4376923

Well, we just have to endure shkanonfags until then, hopefully.

>>4376920

No personality bullshit: Just Kanon died in Jessica's room before the game started and now Shannon is dressing up as him at times to make it seem like he's still alive.

>>4376882
I understand. What I'm arguing is that she almost repeatedly suggested theories that broke her own rules. That's what bothers me, and the reason why I'm saying he could've introduced gold text with a slightly better scenario.

>>4376674
> implying the Shkanontrice theory doesn't allow for another person to be the culprit

>>4376844
This. The only aspect of the Shkanon/Shkanontrice theories that is truly weak is in regards to how many people actually know about the situation. The less people who know, the more unlikely it becomes, but it requires that only a small amount of people know. Still, it's possible to pull off.

In fact, the arguments that most people use involve Episodes 3 and 5, by saying that Beatrice couldn't have killed people in EP3 if she were Shannon/Kanon and that, because Erika and Shannon and Kanon are shown in the same room several times in EP5, that she would have known about it in EP6. However, there is nothing to say that Beatrice was the one to kill people in Episode 3 (for that matter, there's no evidence that Beatrice has been the one killing in any Episode, but that's an argument for another time), and in all likelihood, EP3 was hijacked by someone who is usually not the culprit. As for Episode 5: because the narrative as a whole was unreliable, we have no way of knowing what Erika actually saw and what was said to her.

>>4376920
>>Red text saying they both died in the 1st twilight in ep3, and saying the number of people were 6.
Number of people were never stated, stop making shit up.

>>Erika saw them both in ep5.
Battler saw Erika see them, not the same thing.
He also saw Kinzo, just saying.

>>Kanon died in episode 2 in Jessica's room, proclamed in red, Shannon could still be seem.
And where was his body? In this theory, personality can "die", it was never disproved.

>>Go ahead and say something about the personality bullshit, it won't work in episode 3. Nobody could have moved the corpse since everybody was togheter.
Rosa and Kyrie were separated from the group.

>>Episode 6 did say that, the number of people in the start of the game is the same, but it was never said they have to be the same people every time.
# Besides her, the number of people on this island is exactly the same as it was in the previous games.
In red in episode 5.

>>4376760

Well, that's actually where I see Gold coming in, guaranteeing certain things so reasoning can proceed. But the seal on Red for that particular instance CAN'T be arbitrary. There has to be a reason, probably based on Battler's position in the debate.

Let's see. He was forced to argue that instance from a game board perspective, and game board perspective disallows Red. Even if the pieces cannot possibly mistake Kinzo by sight, there is still room for doubt right? As long as there is doubt, that corpse cannot be "objectively proven as Kinzo", so long as you argue exclusively from a game board level. Thus Battler busts out the Gold.

Hmmm, that's the way I see it now at least.

>>4376856
The actual translation of the red text at the end of Episode 6 is even more open to interpretation than people originally thought.

# Nice to meet you, hello! I am Furudo Erika, a detective!! I may be an uninvited guest, but please welcome me!! I am the visitor, the eighteenth human on Rokkenjima!!
# [We're very sorry, but] even if we welcome you, the number of people is seventeen.

>>4376941
Good. That exactly what I said in >>4376828
But that's not ShKanontrice at all, it's just Shanontrice.
Could be perfectly possible except for episode 5, when the detective Erika sees them both.

You guys should read this carefully.
Eva-Beatrice basically admits that possession by another personality can happen in Umineko.

>>4376941
Doesn't work. Shannon would have to have been Kanon from the start to pull it off, based on red text stated throughout the Episodes.

>>4376986
You mean when the narrative, which is unreliable, states that Erika saw them both. Because we never, ever see things from Erika's point of view.

>>4376966

>He also saw Kinzo, just saying.

He saw Kinzo's corpse. Just saying.

>>4376920
>Erika saw them both in ep5.
When did we get Erika's POV in that scene? Are we supposed to believe one of the people in that room was a fake and that it was some kind of puppet and she never noticed?

I say Erika never really called the whole family together and was in fact in the room Krauss keeps his secret gold bar in, interrogating her.

>>4376799
how can that be the case when there are images with displays both of them?

>>4376931
>Yet it can also call a simple trick, magic.

Well duh.

>Magic: the art of producing illusions by sleight of hand
From Webster's new collegiate dictionary. So as long as it was a splendid sleight of hand, it was splendid magic, and it's fair for the golden rule as long as the fact it was a sleight of hand was alluded to or can be proved by the character stating that truth.

None of your fuzzy ambiguity, it's really that simple and has been alluded to right after the first golden truth. I reiterate, they wouldn't have mentioned Ackroyd otherwise.

>>4377010
He also had a magic fight with Erika. Just saying.

>>4377025

During a sequence that was clearly fiction. Just saying.

>>4377018
I reviewed that scene. This is true, and undisputable.
Erika saw everyone present when she was being introduced. NO EXCEPTIONS.
Go ahead and fire up Umineko EP5. I'll wait for you. Watch and read it slowly.

>>4377018
No, everyone was in the room; it was stated in red that the number of people in the room was the total number of people on the island. But yes, the reason everyone was gathered isn't necessarily the reason given to us by the narrative. Which means Erika may not have cared if not everyone was present.

>>4377022
Yeah but why did Ryuukishi feel the need to use Gold only twice, in episode 5 with Kinzo and in episode 6 with the magic scene.
And why can it only be used by those who know the "truth"?
Do you think only those who know the truth can know the definition of magic from a dictionary?

>>4377035
Erika was shown using red and blue truth on the gameboard. In scenes with no other uses of magic. Just saying.

>>4376931

I see it as a guarantee that "magic" in this tale is just embellishments.

>>4376836

While I agree that Dlanor was on really shaky ground there, prepared corpses were already mentioned. It's really improbable, but it's still possible. Battler really could have just busted out the Decalogue then instead of Gold. What the hell is it and why use it really? Maybe he just chose it to be impressive? Both Ryukishi and Battler?

>>4377047

If magic doesn't exist, neither do red and blue text. Just saying.

>>4376966
>Number of people were never stated, stop making shit up.
Yes, it was. Read episode 3 again, it clearly says 6.

>>Erika saw them both in ep5.
Battler saw Erika see them, not the same thing.
He also saw Kinzo, just saying.

>And where was his body? In this theory, personality can "die", it was never disproved.
This is not reasonable, and no clues were shown before.

>Rosa and Kyrie were separated from the group.
Where does it say that?

> Besides her, the number of people on this island is exactly the same as it was in the previous games.
In red in episode 5.
Episode 5 is not episode 6. Besides, Look at >>4376983

>>4377049
The way I took it, Dlanor was attacking Battler on the premise that he did not actually know the truth and was still working on the human side, which requires that evidence be given for red truth involving the game to be stated. By using the gold truth, Battler showed that he knows the truth and no longer is on the human side.

>>4377022

Please don't spoil Ackroyd though Anon. I've been looking for a copy of that since I thoroughly enjoyed And Then There Were None.

>>4377018
Erika is the detective. If you can't even accept that, it means your opinion can't be taken seriously.

>>4377018
>>4377038 here. I take that back.
I often attribute EP5 as having Erika's POV. Sure, she can be a detective, but you're right, her POV is never stated.
So, is Kanon Battler's gay-side delusion or what the fuck?

>>4377052
And if red and blue text don't exist, then Erika could not have used them, which means the narrative in all scenes with Erika is unreliable and we can't trust what we're told she sees unless it's stated in red. Just saying.

>>4377056
Episode 3 say that 6 people died, not that there is 6 corpses, not the same thing.
Again, persona can die in Umineko, prove me that it can't happen.

And read episode 3 again, Rosa and Kyrie separated themselves from the group.

Also in episode 6, Battler clearly states where everyone on the island is one time in red.
Therefore there is no unexpected guest or different setting.

>>4377083
Kanon is a DFC reverse trap who is also Beatrice. She also dresses up in a female servant outfit at times and pads her bra.

>>4376966
>And where was his body?
Kanon's body is easy, can be thrown out the window, as long as the window is closed afterwards. Then the culprit or an accomplice can move the body further away before Jessica is discovered.

>>4377065

But Battler through his furniture was busting out Red Truths that his Piece really can't have observed or known about, concerning corpses, especially Krauss's. It was clear that he knew the Truth.

Unless his Piece was involved with the Krauss incident then?

>>4376967
That's exactly what I told you.
The only part we disagree is that I see the seal of red as a "you can't make something new right now, you must use already existing truths to prove your point". Thus Battler uses gold as a "new color" with the same effect as red.

>>4377089

Colored text is just a plot device created to benefit the reader. With blue text, whoever uses it can avoid saying "my theory is that etc". With red text, whoever uses it can express facts without having to show proof, thus wasting everyone's time. Just saying.

>>4377093
> Also in episode 6, Battler clearly states where everyone on the island is one time in red.
> Therefore there is no unexpected guest or different setting.

I actually came up with a crazy, crazy possible theory for that. It's totally crack, but it has potential evidence from Episode 4. It was never denied that Kinzo's name can be passed on, right? And in Episode 6, Battler says that "everyone else" excludes Kinzo, with his reason being that Kinzo's corpse obviously isn't in that room. It's a total stretch, and the theory will probably cause even more turmoil, but what if Kanon had been given the name "Kinzo" at some point previously?

>>4377042
She certainly did that in the trial later.

>>4377052

Game board/RL Magic != Rules for the Game

>>4377128
Known that Kinzo only refers to the person itself. Or something like that.

>>4377128
Name only refers to the person themselves.
In red.

>>4377125
You. Are missing. The goddamn point. The fact that Erika uses red and blue text on the gameboard is proof that the narration of the scenes she is present in is unreliable. The reason for that is that we are never shown things from her point of view, and the only point of view that is truly reliable is that of the detective. That also means that scenes in the first four Episodes in which Battler is present, but is not the narrator, are untrustworthy. Which also means that Battler probably did see Kinzo's corpse in EP2, as the narration is from his POV when he states that he saw Kinzo but switches to 3rd person when Kinzo starts talking.

>>4377122

Yeah. I get it now. By not mistaking Kinzo by sight, Battler was able to guarantee that that corpse is Kinzo. So is Gold just the logical conclusion of Red? What makes it inferior?

Why the quotes? Does it have anything to do with the board having no POV?

>>4377056
Sorry, forgot to counter this.

>Battler saw Erika see them, not the same thing.
>He also saw Kinzo, just saying.
Erika being in the same room automatically means she acknowledges all people present there. Unless her POV is unrealiable, which is unforgiven for the detective.

>>4375853
Good Lord. Thank God you're not at AnoɳTalk.com.

>>4377073
Erika being the detective just means she won't lie to the reader when she shares her observations and deductions. But if the detective's not the narrator, the narrator is allowed to report things wrong unless the detective talks about it. Kind of fringe cases though. Famous example is Holmes' death (Watson writes him as dead, he isn't) or more simply any time Watson doesn't see through Holmes' disguises, or any of th numerous cases where the detective is described as an ass or an oddball by the narrator until it is revealed he's actually brilliance incarnate in disguise.

>>4377182
> Erika being in the same room automatically means she acknowledges all people present there. Unless her POV is unrealiable, which is unforgiven for the detective.
Of course her POV isn't unreliable. Problem is, WE NEVER SEE THINGS FROM HER POINT OF VIEW.

>>4377180
It is sometimes superior, sometimes inferior.
I guess if you draw a useless conclusion, it is inferior?

>>4377182
No, we don't know what Erika saw.
Or what she did, or to who she really talked.
Simply because everything we saw was unreliable, even her.

>>4377181
I'm pretty sure that's just Battler referring to his piece's actions

>>4377191
You don't need to. Just by stating she is in the same room means you can't lie about the number of people there.
Remember, when Battler lied saying he saw Kinzo, Erika was not looking at where Kinzo were supposed to be. However, Erika certainly did acknowledged everybody in the room - see >>4377181

>>4377176

So what are you trying to say?

On a different subject: does anyone think the revelation of "Land of the Golden Witch" is actually the explosion that takes place at the end of every game? It matches most of the criteria as described by R07... It's never brought up by Erika, Battler, or Bernkastel, but the reason everyone is dead past October 5th, regardless of their life status prior to midnight, could be considered an interesting riddle.

>>4377211
> However, Erika certainly did acknowledged everybody in the room
Wrong. We are TOLD that she acknowledged everyone in the room by the narrator. And it is never stated in red.

>>4377176
Erika was only able to use red later in the game. Everybody can use blue.

>>4377221
That the fact that the narration of Episode 5 states that Erika sees Shannon and Kanon at the same time is in no way proof of Shannon and Kanon being separate individuals.

>>4377246
Must I point you towards Erika's declaration in red that she is the detective? The same declaration that the narrative states sent Battler flying into a wall?

>>4377254
Well, forced him up against a wall.

>>4377248

Which isn't what I was saying. I was saying that Battler's POV in ep5 might not be unreliable at all.

>>4377254
Battler also said in red things about Asumu. Ok, he was allowed to by Beatrice, but what if Lambdadelta allowed Erika to da that in that particular point?

>>4377274
It's probably more that things can be stated in red by the human side without evidence when they aren't related to the mystery itself.

>>4377237
>>4377248
Even if you are right, how do you expect to get past the red truth in episde 3?
6 people died, people are not personalities no matter how you look at it. One person may have more than one personality, but it is still one single person.

>>4377370
Six people died the same way Erika is the 18th person of Rokkenjima.

>>4377399
So you intent to twist the meaning of the word people to justify your theory? You are supposed to keep a single meaning for both.
Otherwise, you will be allowing Jessitricefags to twist the meaning of the word corpse to justify their theory too.

>>4376606
>>4376611
Just thought about something new.

What if Shannon/Kanon's true name is Uroshimiya Battler.
What if the Battler of 1986, the one we know, really is the son of Asumu.
What if the Battler of the meta-world really is another personality of Shannon/Kanon.
Then he/she would be Kyrie'son.

The sin would be between Beatrice and this Battler, aka Shannon/Kanon.

Seriously, there is no reason to exchange babies or whatever, if Kinzo knew about the pregnancy of Kyrie, he could have decided to take her baby for whatever reason.

That would make a great troll for the last episode.

>>4377422
人 can mean "personality".
Corpse is litterally "dead body".

>>4377458
Sorry, but no.

>>4377458
Possible. I personally suspect Kanon's real name is Battler, and he is not the baby Natsuhi left to die. He may be an younger brother or something, and probably heard the story through another older servant (Kumasawa, Nanjo or Genji), asked Shanon about personal details on Natsuhi (or for the Shakanonfags out there, he IS Shanon) and figured out her favorite season of the year.
Too much open space for theories.

6 people: Kinzo, Genji, Shannon, Kanon, Gohda, and Kumasawa are dead!
There is no one hiding in the six rooms!
The 6 people died instantly!
Only the victims are inside the rooms, and no other people exist inside the rooms
The 6 people were not killed by traps
None of the 6 people committed suicide!
All five master keys were discovered, each in the pocket of one of the servants!
The individual keys were found inside envelopes alongside the corpses!
In short, all keys related to the linked closed rooms were locked inside the linked closed rooms!!
The keys cannot be returned from outside the room using the crack of the door, the crack of the window, vents, or any place of the sort!!
All of them had wounds resembling gunshot wounds which became fatal!
It is impossible for the murder to have taken place outside the room!!
I shall say more with the red! When the five other than Kinzo were murdered, the murderer was definitely in the same room!

Seriously, you cant use ''LOL PERSONAS'' to pass through this red wall.

also

Kinzo is dead
Krauss is dead
Natsuhi is dead
Hideyoshi is dead
George is dead
Rudolf is dead
Kyrie is dead
Rosa is dead
Maria is dead
Genji is dead
Shannon is dead
Kanon is dead
Gohda is dead
Kumasawa is dead
Nanjo is dead
The 15 people mentioned are dead

I will laugh so hard when Shkanon is disproved in EP7. It's not that I hate the theory or anything, I just want Ryukishi to troll the fuck out of you guys.

>>4377482
Why not?
If you assume that magic doesn't exist, there should be an explanation for the meta-world.
Especially if Hachiyo Touya can "observe" it.
And there should be an explanation for the 2 Battler.

We were given no reason for Rudolf to exchange the babies of his wife and mistress.
Kyrie didn't do it, we can be sure of it.

People just assumes for whatever reason that the Battler of the meta-world is the Battler of the real world.
But why? We know that Beatrice in the meta-world can be lots of different things in the real world.
Why would Battler be exempted from this? He becomes a sorcerer too.

And it's weird that we never see anything from Battler's past.
The flashback we saw are for Eva, Natsuhi, Maria, George and Jessica.
George, Jessica and Natsuhi were witnessed by Shannon and Kanon.
Maria wrote a diary.
And Eva survived and could have written a memoir or could have told about her youth in an interview or whatever.

So everything we know about the past could be known from Shannon/Kanon and Hachiyo Touya.

>>4377513
Persona can die, Rosa and Kyrie moved Shannon's corpse in the chapel, number of corpses never stated, etc...
It's plausible.

>>4377520
this

>>4377480
>人 can mean "personality".
No. Learn2moonrune.
人 alone can only mean person. You need combine it with something else.

>>4377520
Shkanon won't be disproved, because it's true.

Shkanontrice probably will be.

>>4377537
>number of corpses never stated
Fuck you, even with it right in your face, you are still playing dumb!
I hate you, I mad!

>>4377554
>When the five other than Kinzo were murdered
>When the five other than Kinzo were murdered
>When the five other than Kinzo were murdered
>When the five other than Kinzo were murdered
>When the five other than Kinzo were murdered
>When the five other than Kinzo were murdered
>When the five other than Kinzo were murdered
>When the five other than Kinzo were murdered
>Die the death!

>>4377513
he best is the part
All five master keys were discovered, each in the pocket of one of the servants!
ONE key just in ONE servant, till 5 were found, one servant can't have two keys, so there must have been five servant corpses

>>4377543
As long as someone is trolled.

>>4377541
彼はどんな人ですか？ means "What kind of person is he?". So, it might be possible.

>>4377543
how kan shannon be kanon when there are images displaying them both at the same time?

>>4377537
Personas cant die, this is made up bullshit that doesnt even pass through the trust between writer and reader.

This is so fucked up that Knox and Van dine are turning on his grave.

There are no plausible clues, no foreshadowing, no tips, no discussions that would go for that and a answer like that could simply mean that ANYONE could be the culprit.

For example, Kyrie could have a Beatrice personality, dressed Shannon corpse as her and procceeded commiting murder while in the Beatrice personality.

Also DID doesnt work that way.

For the red. If personas counted as people on the island so there would be the need to at least count Beatrice persona as its ''the same thing as Kanon persona''

Did someone read ep6 up to the end? What evidences does it give to Shannon=Kanon?

>>4377571
>>4377570
I don't see the word corpse here.
Easy, put master key in Shannon's clothes.
Key is discovered.
When nobody is looking, take Shannon's corpse and put her in chapel, give her Kanon's clothes with master key in the pocket.
Kanon is discovered, oh a master key there too.

>>4377571
I hate Shkannon, but that doesn't work. It simply says each key was in a corpse of one of the servants. That could mean that every key was in one pocket.

>>4377576
It doesn't work that way.
Kind of person =/= personality.
He may be a fat person, this is not related to personality.
Person > personality. A person has a personality (or more than one), but a personality don't "have" a person.

Has the platinum text been revealed yet?

>>4377592
There are countless clues that Shannon and Kanon are the same person.
They die at different times in episode 2 and 4 for sure.
Therefore, the logical correlation is that persona can die, that's all.

>>4377600
Sorry, I forgot people don't die when they get killed. Shkanontrice is obviously right.

>>4377623
It's going to be useless anyway. EP8 will reveal diamond text, the hardest truth known to man.

>>4377600
Do you realize that besides the fact of that being unnecessary and fucked up there's also the need of someone going to the chapel thereafter, getting Kanon corpse AGAIN and redressing him again?

>>4377640
And?
Whoever do everything do it in an overtly complicated way.

I propose you guys leave his thread and never discuss anything with Shkanontrice faggots. They twist everything to fulfill their theory. Just by discussing with them you guys are getting dumber.

>>4377624
No. this is just your fucked up interpretation.

It could be explained in a simple way like, for example, THEY ARE DIFFERENT PEOPLE AND THE EP6 RED TEXT WAS MISLEADING.

>>4377651
They lack love.

Its simple as that.

>>4377658
Red truth is simple truth, it's only misleading if you don't look for the loophole and what the one who spoke wanted to say.

The closed room of episode 6 can only be solved by ShKanon too.
Try to do it in any other way.

Eeeeh maji? Shkannontrice? How weak! It's unforgivable to follow that theory unless you're an elementary school kid, right? Ha ha ha!

I can't believe some people are still denying ShKanon.

>>4377668
>implying you can solve it with Shkanon

>>4377599
Stuff like them sharing the same room, sleeping in the same bed, only one them can achieve love, they individually have less than a whole soul (relating into the Beatrice-creation bit, where the person who created her states that they're dividing their soul between themself and Beatrice), if one of them leaves the island, the other will have to leave as well (and if one stays, they both have to stay)... oh yeah, and then there's that set of closed rooms at the end of Episode 6, plus the final red text of the Episode.

>>4377651
I'm talking to Mitsuku about Umineko. I found out she is smarter than Shkanontrice faggots.

Solve it without ShKanon since you guys are so smart.

>>4377638

>>4377686
Solve it with shkanon

>>4377668
If i could read EP6 sure i would try to solve it.
But you guys remember when we tought that most hard closed rooms from the other games are now easily solved?

Also there could be other explications for the ep6 red text, and its never said that its applicable to all games, just ep6.

With that i can simply say that someone who was supposed to be in the island left the island.

>>4377697
The position of everyone on the island is stated in red by Battler.
Nobody could leave, try again.

>THEY ACTUALLY THINK UMINEKO IS WRITTEN WELL ENOUGH THAT IT IS POSSIBLE TO SOLVE EVERYTHING NOW

>>4377697
How can closed rooms be solved?

>>4377658
All the red truth of Episode 6? Everything that's stated in the Episode relating to Shannon and Kanon? Oh yes, and do note that most of the stuff involving Shannon and Kanon in Episode 6 occurred when Erika and Bernkastel were not present, meaning they weren't done with the intent of misleading Erika and Bern.

>>4377686

Kanon is a Kinzo.

He is also a Battler.

Using this he can dance around the Red and save Battler, he then hides in the closet and kills himself erasing himself from the room.

>>4377701
The ''corpses'' position was stated?
And Battler position?

And if all the positions were stated and you would take that literally Shkanon would be impossible you know

>>4377686
Didn't this closed room cause a logic error? I suppose it doesn't have any solution at all.

>>4377720
All names refer only to the actual people!
In red.

>>4377686
So there are 2 Kanons and one Shannon?

>>4377711

Ryukishi said it's solvable.

>>4377733
It was a logical error because solving it would mean showing the truth of Beatrice's heart.
But moe-Beatrice revived Kanon and used him to solve the closed room in a logical way.
By using Kanon, it wasn't a logical error anymore.

>>4377701
>The position of everyone on the island
>on the island
There's the kicker. Someone left the island.

>>4377723
Corpses position was stated.
Then Shannon, George, Hideyoshi, Nanjo and Kumasawa were stated to be in a room.
Then EVERYONE ELSE was stated to be in another room.

Note the use of "everyone else".

>>4377738

Well at least the name inheritance theory is disproven. Then EP4 really was just Kinzo's videotape will.

>>4377748

>>4377739
Meant to quote also
>>4377701

#[Definition check. That "three people" refers to the number of bodies, correct? That means three bodies went in and out, right?] Of course. Three people, that is, three bodies, went in and out of the room. Only you and Kanon entered, and only Battler left. I already stated with the red truth that all names refer only to the actual people. Therefore, the names "Erika", "Battler", and "Kanon" refer only to the actual people.

>three people, that is, three bodies
>three people, that is, three bodies
>three people, that is, three bodies
>three people, that is, three bodies
>three people, that is, three bodies
>three people, that is, three bodies
>three people, that is, three bodies
>three people, that is, three bodies
>three people, that is, three bodies

>>4377720
Kanon was always shown very close to Kinzo.
Its implied that Kinzo cared about him.
He even have the One winged eagle in his clothes.

What if, Kanon solved the epitaph and became the new Kinzo, given the rights to hold the ring, before Kinzo's death?

>>4377796

Then why the hell is he still acting as a servant if he already has the rights to own the gold?

>>4377813
Because he doesnt want the gold and the inheritance of the Ushiromiya family.

Or he could be acting in Kinzo's will behalf. Implying that he will only assume the headship after the witch game have started...Or he could just know that the siblings wouldnt approve him as the head so easily...

I was just wondering, in EP2 right at the end with the magic & battler getting tortured none of that was his narrative?
But if he's the detective shouldn't we be able to trust him, just like Erika in EP5.

>>4377840
How about Shkanonkinzotrice? IF SOMEONE ''HAVE DID'' WHY NOT JUST SHOVE MORE PERSONALITYS INTO HER/HIM???

>>4377840

>Implying that he will only assume the headship after the witch game have started.

Then there would be no need for the epitaph though..

>>4377885
But there's no need for the epitaph.
And there's no need for the letters and tips.

There's no need for lots and lots of things in Beatrice's game board, yet they are there.

>>4377904

Also the sacrifices. Why are people still being killed if Kanon solved the riddle much before the start of the game?

>>4377909
Because Erika killed them dead. Problem?

>>4377813
I'm not the person suggesting Kanon solved the epitaph, but I believe Beatrice, whoever it turns out to be, servant or not, has solved it.

Through red we know Beato has nothing to gain from the epitaph being solved as the gold of the Golden Land already belongs to her. That's because she's already solved it. The gold originally belonged to the original Beatrice, but Beato has shown (such as in Ep3) she considers the earlier Beatrices to be separate entities.

Beatrice didn't want the inheritance, and sent envelopes to everyone containing the keycards before the conference. The murders are done by someone else.

>>4377909
Someone surely solved the riddle before the start of the game. This person is the culprit, Beatrice or a accomplice.

Kinzo is a name passed on for the next head of the Ushiromiya family, Kinzo is acknowledged between the people in the dining room.

The only one that could seal the wax in the letters would be the one to have the head ring, which would only be given to the next head of the family.

And so it goes..

>>4377919

The epitah & the letters remind me a lot of the A.B.C. case Poirot, the epitah is being used to kill one specific person.

>>4377946

Well, it all fits.

Gentlemen, Umineko has been solved.

>>4377960
# [She killed them in various different ways, but afterwards] she completely severed all of the victims' heads.
# All five of the people I killed... were perfectly alive until the exact moment I killed them.

>>4377909
Because Kinzo's will.

>>4377987
Well where is this will?

>>4377982

I wasn't objecting, bro.

>>4377992
Kinzo's will was implied to have been written in EP2, so where it is doesnt matter, it could simply exist.

>>4377992
Probably kept in a safe or something. The servants know where it is, at the very least.

>>4378019
In B4 behind Beatrice's portrait.

>>4378032
Or in the portrait.

>>4378037

Or under the portrait.

Nobody would dare to look for something hidden under or behind Beatrice's portrait, because of fearing Kinzo's wrath.

Natsuhi and the other who knew that Kinzo is dead wouldnt mess with the portrait because it would cause suspiscion into his dead/alive status.

So its clearly something that have so much plot armor that no one would look into it.

Hmmm...okay, I think this works. Kanon = Kinzo. Therefore, the locked room can be solved. No Shkanon needed....