/jp/ - Otaku Culture

I've never played a VN where a dead character has as big a part as Kinzo.

>>4361092
Why must you stupid guys constantly spam and attack www . anon
talk . com for? Please stop. We don't want any chanturds there.

>>4361095
who the uck is this ol man hu

>>4361107
because he's Ushiromiya Kinzo, not even death can stop him from being awesome

>>4361095
What the hell are you talking about!? Kinzo is the main character. Though he's in his youth and hasn't yet traveled back in time yet.

>>4361107
Well, I have.

>>4361095
FUCK YEAH TEATRICE

There are seriously no holes in this theory, besides the ones you pour water in and out of.

>>4361127

So when Battler says >"Grandfather does not exist" in red is he referring to the grandfather clock?

>>4361137
That's because he has to become Amakusa first.

>>4361249
Yes.
Kinzo was alive the whole time.
You been trolled by Ryukishi. AGAIN.

>>4361225
As much as I love this theory, that phrase is fucking annoying.

>>4361225
Teatrice is the ONLY acceptable end.
I'd die from laughter if it was the end Ryukishi had planned from the very beginning. Then I'd go kill someone. Then I'd laugh some more.

>>4361275
What do you suggest? Teapottrice? Earl Gray-trice?
Teatrice is fine, if you ask me.

And now, let's take a closer look into even more reasons why this theory works.
Tea: A recurring theme throughout Umineko. Indeed, there are several conversations between most of the characters focused entirely on tea. The history of tea, the naming of tea, the types of tea. All roads lead back to tea. The biggest hint of all would be the "Teaparties". Just think about that last one for a second. It'll hit home eventually.

Indeed, tea appears everywhere in Umineko. Every few scenes, normally a short time before a "murder", the characters will be talking and drinking tea. Clearly it was the tea that killed them. Blood on the floor, but no body? That's because somebody coughed it up after drinking the tea.

As for who moved the bodies after death, this could easily have been any of the servants. I'm going to go with Gohda, if only for Magical Gohda Chef end. If you like, then whoever moved the bodies also poisoned the tea to begin with, making them the culprit. Clearly this person forgot which tea was poisoned, drank the poisoned tea, and died themselves. This also explains why nobody was left alive. It also explains Battler's death when he was the only one left on the island. He drank the tea.


After reading the information presented, I'd like you to sit and think about it. I mean really think about it. Doesn't it make sense? Doesn't it all fit together perfectly?
Of course it does. With this theory, there is no need for a DID maid, a psycho blond cousin, or anything of the sort.

>>4361349
What made me realize how perfect the Teatrice theory is was the Natsuhi-talking-to-Beatrice scene in EP5. She's not being absolutely fucknuts insane and talking to a delusion, she's just looking at the family heirloom teapot and reflecting on how she's left out of all the Ushiromiya's Ushiromiyaness.

>>4361349

GIGAAAAAAAAAA
DEEEEESSSSSIIIREEEEEEE
BRRRREEEEEAAAAAAAAAAKKKKKKK

>>4361367
Yet more evidence.

Come on guys, let's make sure Teatrice is the single most solid theory out there. If we can gather enough evidence for Teatrice, we can surely crush all of those Shkanon/trice theories.
Isn't that what a lot of you want? To be rid of Shkanon/trice? Teatrice can make it happen. All you have to do is find or take enough screencaps that hint towards Teatrice. It shoudln't be that hard.

As for me, I'm going back and re-reading Umineko from EP 1. And I'm going to screencap every line that hints at Teatrice. With or without your help, I'll make this the most solid theory out there, one way or another.

>>4361426
You're starting at EP1? Okay, then I'll go start capping EP3 or 4 to look for Teatrice hints in the later games.

Shkannon on its own isn't that bad, but Shkannontrice/Moon-chan/Doubletrice/Fusiontrice/etc need to be crushed and crushed fast.

>>4361448
>>4361426
BURNING TEATRICE SPIRIT

Fuck yes Teatrice you are the greatest truth ever.

>>4361448
Personally I just want to crush Shkanon so that I can have my Kanontrice end be a possibility. Seriously, Kanon is the only decent character of the characters that could actually be Beatrice.

>>4361426
Sure, Teatrice can present an argument against Shkannontrice, but it can't do anything about Shkannon.

>>4361501
Except for a teapot, you mean.

">unlimited desire works"

I want an unlimited desire works picture

somebody make it

>>4361504
Very few people have a problem with Shkannon.

It's Shkannontrice that's pushing the putting-it-past-Ryukishi limit.

>>4361510
Best I've got for now.
Somebody get to work on a better one. I'd do it myself, but I'm incompetent with Photoshop, GIMP and the like.

>>4361515

>very few

Citation needed.

>>4361523
George is a fat faggot and a cockblock.

>>4361515
Other way around, it's the Shkanon part that everybody hates. Because DID pissed people off, and we want as little of it as possible.

>>4361540
Everybody wants George to be the only one to die no matter what the end we're given.

>>4361553
Just get Gohda to serve him some tea.

Why does everybody hate George? He's such a bro.

>>4361543
Shkanon is plausible, the -trice part is what I hate
I prefer moon over Shkanontrice, at least makes it somewhat better with two pitiable servants manipulated by a girl with an eternal period

>>4361580
I think you intended to type "Kanon" but some kind of seizure or other mishap forced you to accidentally say "George."

Happens to the best of us.

>>4361581
Jessitrice-fag detected. Fuck off, you're theory is JUST AS BAD AS Shkanontrice.

Hate ShKanontrice now, cry when it will be confirmed next episode.

>>4361610
>implying that it wasn't already confirmed

>>4361622
Well most people need the thing spelled out to them.
But yeah episode 6 made it quite obvious.

>>4361610
>>4361622
>>4361627
No. Shkanon maybe, but Shkanontrice is impossible.
Because Teatrice is the only end.

When it turns out that none of these name-pun theories are right and that R07 had something other in mind that won't be fully clarified until the near end.

>>4361627
>implying that shkannontrice is the only logical answer.

That shit is not logical. It's horribly complex. it's shit, and it would be a shit solution.

Even if Shkanon is true I would only use it to explain why Kanon's corpse disappears all the time. It doesn't explain why everyone dies or what the motive for the murders are other than being batshit crazy.

>>4361937

If Shkanon is true then how do they appear in the same scene together?

>>4362031
We never get a narration from Battler's point of view when his POV is reliable where Shannon and Kanon are shown together. And Erika doesn't narrate any of the scenes she witnesses, so we don't know what she saw in Episode 5.

>>4361937
that's the problem here, everyone confirmed Shannon=Kanon and then POOF! she's the culprit since it can solve the closed rooms
this would be a HUGE let down if Shkanon was the culprit

>>4362063
And even if Shkanontrice is the case, that doesn't mean Beatrice is the culprit either.

Shkanontrice is too illogical. Anyone else remember when Shkanon had one disguising as the other? And no DID? Those were the days.

>>4362057
But isn't that kind of the same as saying that the majority of Umineko isn't reliable basis as there are many many more scenes than just the scenes featuring Shannon and Kannon where the narrative could be argued to be untrustworthy.
If such a huge part of Umineko isn't trustworthy then I don't see why you people bother with these theories anyway.

>>4362063
>everyone confirmed Shannon=Kanon and then POOF!
What now? Come again?

>>4362091
No, it's the same reason why people could see and talk to Kinzo even though he was dead, and why Beatrice can use magic on the gameboard.

>>4362114
No, they could see and talk to Kinzo because Kinzo does not die when he is killed.
Also, you can argue that if Kinzo is just future Battler, then Battler could be referred to as Kinzo. So they were talking to Battler, who is essentially Kinzo.
Mystery solved.

Why hello there Dlan-HHNNNGHHHH

Why is it that no one thinks meta Battler is actually young Kinzo?Kinzo's soul who loves Beatrice goes back to be Battler and solve his family tragedy.

>>4362114
Why, yes and in what way does my point still not stand?
By stating that nothing can be taken for certain one can come up with almost any kind of theory.

>>4362236
because that's stupid

>>4362236
I think Battler is a clone of Kinzo.

>>4362304
And then suddenly clones everywhere

>>4361580
Because he has the indecency to walk around naked.

>>4362314
So, Umineko just became Gantz?

>>4361543
Nah, Shkanon can be explained without DID.

DID is unecessary, and ''-trice'' is where it crosses the line between a plausible shitty theory and something that shouldnt even exist.

>>4362241
Umineko's narration has been untrustworthy from the start. Like Battler says (in red), 'you can't trust any words that aren't red.' But that's fine; all or most scenes have some element of truth in them (Beato wants Battler to solve it, after all), and given how easily the red can be used to mislead, I wouldn't be so quick to trust that either.

Battler solved the mystery after 5 episodes and he didn't see Ange's scenes, so he had less to work on than we do.

All clues are in there somewhere and the mystery is solvable, but you're right, any theory can be made (as long as it doesn't directly contradict the red). That doesn't mean we shouldn't try.

>>4362432
> Nah, Shkanon can be explained without DID.
Not when everything that has been shown to us pretty much states that, if Shkanon is true, Shannon and Kanon are still their own persons within that one body. They have conflicting desires, and may eventually fight for control of their body.

It's the Shkanon part I hate.

Shannontrice on it's own I'm perfectly fine with because having a piece be Beatrice doesn't carry the same retarded connotations of 'can get around every red text ever because lol personalities switching'.

Shkanon is slightly better than Shkanontrice but still in the realm of retarded.

>>4362609
It's the other way around for me. I never really liked the original Shannotrice theory, but I find Shkanontrice more palatable.

>Gold is my body, and fire is my blood.

No, I'm pretty sure fire is your body, too.

So...
Kinzo = Battler = Amakusa?

Kannon is created when Jessica sexually abused Shannon.I believe in Jessitrice + Shkannon.It is more logical.

>>4362626

What are you, a faggot?

>>4362632
Okay then, so how does "Gold is my body, and desire is my blood" sound?
Then I'd have to change the title to something like Unlimited Goldsmith Works, to avoid it sounding repetitive.

>>4362653
Yes.

>>4362653
Everyone are Battler and Battler just have a severe case of multiple and split personalitites and you know how the narrative can't be taken as a reliable source and the red being misleading and all.
What happened at the end of Ep5 was that battler himself realized that he was a nutcase, and finally stood up in order to battle his inner demons as the new leader of the board

>>4361095
She is the passion of my love
Blind is my body yet my blood flows with desire
I have betted on over thousand miracles
Not reaching her love
Or even her smile
I caught her many times, aiming for it even so
Yet these eyes never saw her smile
Now the only thing left of me is "The Goldsmith of Rokkenjima"

How about something like that?
I am not entirly sure what my opinion is on all these chant rip offs, possibly not something that good, but as they are posted anyway..

>>4362990
Now the only thing left in me is "The Goldsmith of Rokkenjima"
Perhaps a bit better

>>4361515

I hate Jessitrice, Shkanon, and Shkannontrice and all variations of the three.

>>4364343

YOU ARE MY ALLY

>>4364530

What do you think of Rosatrice? :D

>>4364542

Better than the other theories. I think she's being partially manipulated in EP2's scenario.

After seeing a lot of Kyrie artwork, I can't help but feel Kyrie culprit would be pretty cool.

>>4364761
Kyrietrice.

Kyrie created the Beatrice persona inside herself.

In ep1 the Kyrie persona dies and the Beatrice persona survives, then she proceeds to dress up Shannon corpse as herself, as the face is smashed THERE IS NO PROBLEM.

Even if Beatrice says that she is dead in red, there's no problem, Beatrice is the persona that survived!

In ep2 she was just playing dead with the help of insulin and horror-movies-make-up. After everyone left, the Beatrice persona woke up and proceeded to kill everyone.

In Ep3 she just fuck yeah'd and killed everyone.

Same for EP4.

In EP5 she was the one that hired someone to talk with Natsuhi in the phone and frame her.

IT ALL MAKES SENSE.

>>4364761

>>4361716
This

>>4364897
Noes.

>>4366356
All the theories are stupid

>>4361504
The only problem with Shkanon is the final closed room of ep6. And even with Shkanon this room looks somehow wrong.
On an other way, it could be Ryukishi showing us how to solve the mystery, but with others characters that the real ones.

Is it possible for Jessica to provoke Shannon to murder?Shannon and Beatrice confrontation in EP2 kinda make me think that Jessica is a total selfish bitch if Jessitrice is the truth.

>>4366375
Well, I would understand Kanon killing for Shannon, but for me Kanon or Shannon killing for someone else seems difficult

GOLDSMITH FREEMAN

>>4366381
Kanon killing bad people to protect the rest is plausible, like in ep1, maybe he thought/someone told him
Natsuhi=culprit and servants are helping her

I fucking lol'd at this thread. Anyway, has the red truth 'truthfulness' been doubted since EP6? You all have been talking about it. Can't moonread here and as far as I know the red truth is open to different interpretations, but it isn't for oppositions (i.e. subalterne, contradiction, contrary.)

>>4366474
For me the red truth itself is strange.

If you look, in ep5, there is the red truth on the human side, which, because of that, cannot be absolute.
Beato's red truth > devil's proof.
Human's red truth < devil's proof.

And in ep 1-4, the only one who said

"when I speak the truth, I will use red.
Everything I speak in red is the truth"

is Beato.
Then EVA said that
"The red only tells the truth"
but she never said that she will respect that.

Anyway, there is a strange difference between "red", and especially "red text" and "red truth".

Ryukishi's TIPS and interviews also imply that there is something wrong with the red.

>>4366532

Your offering is interesting. Yours is even more backed up with the fact that the game rules never specify what context this 'truth' is; we can assume this very 'truth' is the one we are now holding firm in consensus, that is, subjective on how we interprete her. Battler very much realized this in EP5, thus, the Golden truth emerged.

>>4366596

samefag

>>4366532

Do you have the English link for the tips you're talking about?

>>Do you have the English link for the tips you're talking about?

Well, ronove is talking about it in Anti-mystery vs anti-fantasy :

http://community.livejournal.com/witchhunters/5724.html
after
"Below is Ronove's commentary.", but I found the whole tips interresting, personally.


For the interviews

http://community.livejournal.com/witchhunters/7366.html

Another interresting interview :
http://community.livejournal.com/witchhunters/7562.html


R: If "Multiple Red Text Combo" occurs midway through the game, although it will drive everyone to a corner, people can probably find a way out quickly once they've discussed it online. One person might not be enough, but with a group working together, it's possible to clear away the problem, just like how it was in Higurashi. This "Multiple Red Text Combo" has a certain exaggerating quality to it.

One of the biggest question for me is:
what is exactly a twilight?

It must have some meaning, "Goldsmith" don't kill some people even if he could because it was not the time for the second twilight...

so what does everybody think of Jesshkanonitrice?

>>4361627
TOO MUCH obvious.
Hu, I had forget, Ryukishi NEVER trolls anyone, it is true...

Anyway for me it was a hint for a DID problem for everyone on the island because of a X reason. EVA. Just EVA.

>>4367109
wat

>>4362591
you just saw Beatrice somking golden butterflies since 4 episodes and you can still say this?

-non kill and that's all

>>4367128
Umineko is not supposed to give a clear answer, so instead of an answer, it have to be a hint.

beatrice exists and really was a witch all along

>>4367328
Would be better than a Shkanon ending. Even ep6 is not coherent about this.

>4366532
Was you around on the E2 Jessica's closed room discussion?
Particular part of the "living body can be called a corpse in red" puts a lot of doubt on the whole red. It relates to the red stated by Erika(calling them 'those corpses' in red though they couldn't possibly be dead at that point). It's either different from GM's red talking about "Jessica's Corpse" in red or the red can really be bent this much. Which is implied by Beato being able to say "When Jessica's corpse was found, people in the room..." while not being able to count "corpse of Jessica" to the people in room.

Erika's red there is really a huge contradiction.

>>4367421
well, ep5 red is a huge contradiction itself. Look at the "battle" between Dlanor and Battler in Kinzo's study.
Some people says that Gertrude or Cornelia symbolises the receipts but no matter how I look at it, for me, the receipts symbolizes the red truth, we really see their use in parallel.

And as far as I know, a receipt cannot be absolute... In the same way, the one who put it can also be lying...

It is just as Ryukishi says; the red truth is not the truth because it is the red truth, it is the truth if you are able to trust your opponent.


the worst contradiction come with ep6;
Erika is able to state that she is the eighteenth human in red, and Beato is able to tell the opposite right after.
Even with this Shkannon crap, there is a problem with the red here. If the red was absolute, and all this, she would not have been able to say it, like Battler in ep4.

(And Erika killing 5 people in red when the game master don't agree is also rather good)

>>4367421
And no, I was not around, so I had not noticed that, thanks

Will you people please stop with this garbage?
# The red truth is simply truth, and there is no need to provide evidence, proof, or room for a counter-argument!!
# The red only tells the truth

>>4367714
meta?

>>4367764
It's a hi~mi~tsu~

>>4367631
There is no contradiction with the red text.
In episode 6 Erika uses １８人目 while Battler/Beatrice uses １７人.
Erika uses a term to "number" herself, she is the 18th person, Battler and Beatrice just state that there is 17 humans including her.
Not the same thing.

>>4367714
Said in ep 3 by EVA and in ep 5 by Lambda or Bern. Try again. And go read what Ryukishi wrote himself.

>>4367631
That sure explains why people choke when they try to lie in red.

You guys are making this mystery harder by doubting every scrap of evidence you're given.

>>4367812
Uh, that doesn't change anything. If he was really planning on using that as a cover for that part then he shouldn't be writing because that's extremely... questionable

>>4367812
yeah, and how can you be the number 18 without a 17th person?

>>4367826
Why does that matter?

>>4367812
"I am Erika, the 18th person of this island."
"Sorry but, even counting you, there are 17 people here."

>>4367859
By introducing a character who can count as 2 in the numbering.
There is 17 humans for sure, but there can be someone who has 2 different identities and can therefore count as 2.
"人目" litterally mean hitome, you can translate it as "public notice".

Basically Erika is the 18th person in the "eyes of the world" on the island.

Go read Ryukishi's interview. He himself said that the red truth despend of you trust in the person.

Read again the first thing Beato said in red.
"I"

>>4367933
So what exactly are you trying to argue here? What's your purpose?

>>4367933
That was from EP2 or EP3, wasn't it? It was proven in EP4 that red can only tell the truth.

>>4367874
She acknowledges both Kanon and Shannon, because she has no love.
Hey, wait a minute, that don't make sense

>>4367965
And when was it supposed to be proven?
It CAN be the truth, it's a fact. But further?

>>4368037
Why else would people start choking when they try to lie in red?

>>4361094
Why must you stupid guys constantly spam and attack www . anon
talk . com for? Please stop. We don't want any chanturds there.

>>4368046
Kinzo's study windows in ep5.

>>4368058
Your point?

Can somebody please explain why Kinzo is associated with the Japanese Bird Playing Piano? What led to this?

>>4368085
Look at the image.

Think of desire.

You can't say that they don't go together perfectly. They just...do.

>>4368085
People thinking that shopping Kinzo's face on everything and adding the line "Oh desire" makes anything instantly funny.

>>4368078
The game marster is able to seal a red truth whenever he want to. Beato can perfectly have done the same for Battler. Nobody really knows the rules of the red, so it is not a problem.

You guys are overcomplicating shit for nothing, it's stupid.

>>4368108
But I don't remember Cornelia choking in that scene.

>>4368102
No, this started before the whole Kinzo head shooping fad, actually.

>>4368126
Yeah, she don't even tried to use it. So we don't know what would have happened if she had try to screw the rules.

>>4368108
Cornelia is a piece in that scene.
Game masters can control pieces to some degree.
Choking Battler is meta Battler.
Game masters can't control how characters act in the meta world (the witch side would always win if that were the case).

>>4361094
Why must you stupid guys constantly spam and attack www . anon
talk . com for? Please stop. We don't want any chanturds there.

>>4368085
The bird looks like he's playing on the piano while singing about his lost love. Ending of the anime is Kinzo singing about his lost love. Put them together.

Does anybody have the copypasta for the EP 4 download?

>>4368174
Who is talking about controling?
The red truth is a rule between the game master and the player. the two are in the meta-world. Because he is playing the game of the game master, the player is also under the rules of the game. The game is not limited to the pieces, that's the game board.

>>4368213
Well if the game master can even control the player's text, then why don't they just forbid the player to use any kind of text?
Automatic win.

>>4368212
the links of that pasta are down

>>4368275
And since when does Beato want to win absolutely?
And Lambda and Bern mainly want to have fun.
Beato said that

"Just as I can use the red, Battler, from now on I will permit you to use the blue.


You can says that she is lying and Battler was able to use it anyway if he knew about it, but still, it does totally suit. The game master make the rules, the player follow them. It's normal.

>>4368322
>And since when does Beato want to win absolutely?
>And Lambda and Bern mainly want to have fun.
But Battler was seriously pissed with Erika in episode 6 when she started to fuck up with his game.
Battler would just have to forbid her from using the red in that scene, and there would be no problem.

The point of the game is that both sides play on even footing, it wouldn't be fair if the witch side could have such an enormous advantage over the human side.
If this

but battler wants a fair game, and the closed room in ep6 was his fault, like the logic error, so we have seen that he can make errors. and yes, that's why the red text have a problem. Erika shouldn't have been able to say that, anyway. Anyway Ange says, when she comes in ep4, that it is an unfair game, it's not a revelation. doesn't change the fact that the use of somes truth have been forbidden in ep6. in ep6 Erika herself is a logic error for having hacked a gameboard.

>>4367812
>>4367874
We apparently interpreted that bit wrong. It's not "including you", it's "even if we welcome you". 迎える means "to welcome".

# Nice to meet you, hello! I am Furudo Erika, a detective!! I may be an uninvited guest, but please welcome me!! I am the visitor, the eighteenth human on Rokkenjima!!
# [We're very sorry, but] even if we welcome you, the number of people is seventeen.

I don't get why you all choses to spoil yourself episode 6 before it's properly translated. Even if you spoil yourself episode 6, episode 7 isn't even released yet and in the meantime there's plenty of time to wait for a proper translation.

>>4369501
some have actually read it

>>4369512
But they haven't spoiled themselves either, if they read it properly.