/jp/ - Otaku Culture

>>43220482
Fuck off grimfag

>>43220482
>searches source
Men... on non-H gensokyo? What kind of sorcery is this?

>>43222711
It's AI generated. You can tell by the blurry outlines, awful hands and simplistic faces.

>>43220482

>>43223156
I say both of these but look like right

>>43223173
Which is the actual case, like in the real world there's both grim and cute stuff, no idea why people are picking sides when both are canon

>>43223156
I think Yukari is the main problem on the left hand side of the equation here.
She just doens't look like that.
Yuukarin on the other hand probably would look like that if you managed to piss her off, and judging by the fact she's holding her head you've either hit her with something really hard, or you've annoyed her so much she's trying to not have a stroke. In either case, she'd probably be justified in being pissed.

>>43220482
We are told a rabid wolf killed a few people who left the safety of the village in the cutsey fairy manga.
Living in Gensokyo is like being in a nature preserve, the wilderness is dangerous, even without the supernatural spooks.

>>43223156
I don't understand crossboarder memes.

Youkai need a sense of purpose to continue existing, if they have no raison d'etre they have an existential crisis and disappear. Belief doesn't matter, just whether they are needed. Fear is just food/power. They may or may not be able to starve to death. e.g. witches cannot starve because they use magic to fulfill their needs.
Kami need belief to continue existing, if no one believes in them, they disappear. Faith is just food/power.
Yousei need nature/life force to exist. They do not need any other sort of faith, fear, or food.

>>43220482
Hat too small, this isn't my Marisa

>>43220482
what the hell was her problem

>>43224839
Mental illness and being a lesbian.

>>43224839
live with honest men (thieves) drunk and liars.
Imagine having to live with people like that, ending up in an unknown place like Gensokyo, and becoming a youkai after trying to kill yourself because you couldn't take it anymore.

>>43220482
Midget Marisa calling anyone a kid.

>>43224171
>Youkai need a sense of purpose to continue existing
Oh yeah? Then explain this lewd little shit.

>>43225482
Hungry.

Both object and humanoid bodies of a tsukumogami equaly important, right? I just thought that if the humanoid body is a projection of the tool, then they could effectively teleport by throwing themselves and reprojecting.

>>43226672
>Both object and humanoid bodies of a tsukumogami equaly important, right?
Given Raiko basically swapped out hers with no detriment, I wouldn't say so.

>>43226734
That was stated to be risky so I imagine that's an outlier, rather than a normal thing.

>>43225482
She said it herself, attacking humans is a youkai's job. Regardless of whether she actually expends energy doing it, it's her purpose.

>>43223156
/v/ tourist? on my /jp/? more likely than you think.

>>43224839
Coping mechanism

>>43226960
Never been on /v/, just thought the meme would be fitting. Funny how /jp/ jannies won't ban one obnoxious guy, Rikafag, and the Vtuber spammers but are willing to delete memes.

Anyways, back to the Grimsokyo/Cutesokyo topic. I'd say as a neutral side who enjoys both style of stories that both can be applied to Gensokyo. Touhou is a subjective experience and own envisions of Gensokyo can be applied to own headcanons, because a lot of stuff aren't stated canon. Basically both Grimsokyo and Cutesokyo can exist, as they won't contradict each other, because neither of them are proved wrong.
It's the Black Tewi rule

>>43220482
Nice to see Grimsokyofags and Cutesokyofags are still duking it out

Anyways, does anyone know where the latest chapter of CDS is? Did the author go on another hiatus?

>>43220482
Reminder that despite what Akyuu says, the Spiriting Away phenomenon is not caused by the natural mechanics of the Great Hakurei Barrier but rather are explicitly caused by Yukari. Outsiders don't end up in Gensokyo because that's just how the barrier works sometimes, they end up in Gensokyo because Yukari kidnaps them. Youkai don't just kidnap them, they put them through death gauntlets to be toyed with and eaten, with the slimmest chance of escaping to the Human Village or the Hakurei Shrine.

>>43228095
No chapter came out in March, but the most likely thing is that it will come out at the end of April.

>>43228516
And reminder that not even children are exempt from these kidnappings. Youkai will kidnap, kill, and eat actual children if they can get away with it.

>>43228516
Isn't there a spot in Gensokyo that has such a weak foundation, most youkai avoid it because they might just get pushed out the barrier after taking a wrong step?
I think it's said that most outsiders and all the outside world garbage fall into that place.

>>43220482
This OBLITERATES and shatters the shitter of every cutesokyo phony.

>>43228516
It's both.

The barrier at Muenzuka IS weak, like it's weak at the Hakurei shrine. Not all who wander into Gensokyo fit Yukari's criteria. Objects as well as people easily fall into Gensokyo around these areas

>>43228095
we cant expect jannies to do all the work. if you see a post being to shitty and low quality you should report it.

>>43228682
you're thinking of Muenzuka, but I don't remember anything about it being "dangerous for youkai"

Looking again though, Akyuu does explicitly say it's dangerous for both humans and youkai, citing the weak barriers and intersection of worlds making it difficult to maintain one's presence while there

>>43228690
Nice to know that despite supposedly changing for the better Kasen still keeps all these undead servants lying around.

>>43226672
they're one and the same
>>43226734
I'm fairly sure that her method was weird as hell or basically was saying that electricity is magic or something. Still, that new drum set is her new body

>>43228873
If i took of her umbrella, would she die?

>>43228893
____________________Yes

>>43228530
Over 100k citizens end up missing in Japan every year if we consider how the authorities undercut the numbers, with around 2-4% of those cases never being found.
Some of those people ended being lunch for some bloodthirsty youkai in the Touhou series.
Really makes you think.

>>43228905
you they ended up being husbands for solitary youkai.

>>43228864
she doesn't, this also isn't necessarily a "real" place though it is absolutely confirmed that her arm consumed many, many humans

It was stuck outside, beyond Kasen's reach for a long time

>>43228864
Tell me you're a tertiary without telling me you're a tertiary.

And that's the best thing about Kasen anyway.

>>43228893
It would be extremely painful

>>43225482
Her purpose is to faithfully spread the word of the LORD.
She also isn't lewd at all. She's a very pure maiden.

>>43228981
You're a big umbrella.

>>43229058
For you.

>>43229071
Sweet! I love free stuff.

>>43228910
You wouldn't want to be her husband would you?

>>43228516
Barrier is thin in some places tho. But maybe it's just Kappa specialty to find and bust down backdoors no only in humans

What's the technology level of kappa?

You've got the underground fusion reactor (though I'm pretty sure it only works because Okuu exists and would be useless without her), kappa themselves can make submarines, cloaking devices, all types of shit. Outsiders certainly don't have cloaking devices, so wouldn't this mean Gensokyo has a higher level of technology in some fields?

And yet, in SSiB, Ran mentions that the Kappa and Tengu are only "halfheartedly mimicking" the Outside World. Hatate says in her AFiEU interview that the average smartphone has video recording that far surpasses anything in Gensokyo. Things like oil heaters, which we've had in the Outside since at least the 1920s, are considered the "latest" in home heating technology in Gensokyo, even by the Kappa. Aya also states in AFiEU that Gensokyo's technology is no match for the Outside World's, so what gives?

And even with the Kappa around, Rinnosuke still isn't able to figure out how to operate many of the things in his shop. Did he just never think to ask the kappa or do they not know either?

>>43230238
Supplementary oil heater image

>>43230238
>Did he just never think to ask the kappa or do they not know either?
Kappas and tengus don't share their knowledge that easily. at least not cheaply.

>>43230238
>You've got the underground fusion reactor (though I'm pretty sure it only works because Okuu exists and would be useless without her)
Also, expanding on to this, I recall seeing somewhere that due to barrier mechanics, things that were "fantasy" in the Outside World could more easily become "reality" in Gensokyo, such as nuclear fusion or cold fusion. Will advances in nuclear fusion in the Outside impact the function of fusion reactors in Gensokyo?

>>43230238
Outside of the cloaking thing, I don't really remember the Kappa having anything that super advanced compared to the outside.
And it wasn't that great seeing how Nitori got spotted anyways. Is that thing even wide spread anyways? I don't think the Kappa even share their tech with each other unless money gets involved.

>>43229099
Who the fuck wants to stole that ugly eggplant umbrella? She's probably just forgot where she put it

>>43228095
>wants to ban rikafags
>posts the most aboherent meme joke ever
>it includes newjak shit
not gonna make it, /qa/boobhufag

>>43230238
I always figured Gensokyo tech worked on 40k Ork logic, either it literally only works because a hyper autist kappa believes it'll work so strong it warps the fabric of reality, or their tech isn't especially advanced and they're dependent on magic to make everything work.

You know, with how important nature is for Gensokyo, it surprises me that there isn't a pollution youkai/demon/god as an antagonist/straight up villain.
Or maybe i shouldn't have watched Ferngully before entering this thread. Now i can't get Tim Curry's song out of my head and somehow associating it with Touhou.

>>43239496
Tangentially related, but your post reminds me of a doujin where Gensokyo is faced with a smallpox outbreak (since the disease has been eradicated in the Outside World). It is quite a good piece and showcases how the usual regulatory forces deal with the issue in a uniquely Gensokyan way.

https://dynasty-scans.com/chapters/sickness_sprouts_from_the_builders_tears

Also notable for featuring a very nice (i.e. canon-compliant) Yamame. I wholeheartedly recommend it.

>>43239633
>Gensokyo is faced with a smallpox outbreak (since the disease has been eradicated in the Outside World).
Wait, so what will happen if we erradicate the covid-19 virus (assuming that's remotely possible)

>>43239820
In the Renko and Merry future, it seems like medical science have made diseases no longer a issue, at least when it comes to human targeted ones.
But, Covid can still infects other lifeforms, and won't go away even if humans become immune to it.

>>43230181
How did Yukari not know about this?

>>43240615
she knows, and she allows it. youkai get to come and go as they please, its the humans that are shit out of luck. gensokyo is meant to be a paradise for youkai and youkai specifically, after all

>>43240615
Because it has not been brought up at all since that article, and probably never will again.
It's only rumored anyways, and whatever bits of Kappa society that was seen doesn't evoke some hidden utopia in the slightest.

>>43224171
So what if youkai started getting used as sexual relief?

Redpill me on Hell.
Hecatia said there are multiple hells, one for the Otherworlds (with Gensokyo's hell being part of it), one for the Moon, and one for the Earth (outside world), do they each all have their own yama organization? How do they function?

>>43224839
Sacrifices for BEATORICHEEE

>>43240718
we don't know
we don't know

presumably this isn't necessarily something every hell has, seeing as the "new" hell we know of was moved into and changed from what it originally was

Also Hecatia was basically implying there were many hells in general, or rather she specifically said "other worlds" apparently, and said she's done a lot of traveling between many worlds.

>>43240615
>>43240683
Several characters have opened the barrier before. It's not like it's against some law. The only laws of the land are the spell card rules as far as we know. Kappa are alleged to open it, Nue and Mamizou opened it (Mamizou several times), everyone in UFO opened it (though not deliberately other than 1 character), Kasen's opened it several times, and Remilia supposedly opens it regularly to get stuff

>>43241264
kanako also supposedly opened it to get some wine

>>43241264
>everyone in UFO opened it
sorry I mean ULiL, total "U for U" retarded brain fart

>>43241264
oh right and Akyuu *is* saying it's Forbidden, or "should be forbidden" supposedly according to JP, so maybe it's sort of like American's "no drinking in public" rule: as long as I don't see it, it's allowed

>>43241415
Which she wasn't supposed to

>>43240718
Eiki stated Hecatia is "one of our organization's leaders". The organization is question would be The Ministry of Right and Wrong, whose main leaders are the Ten Kings, who are yama and command the lesser judges, named also as yama.
I believe the top organization commands and governs all Hells, since Hecatia is part of it. The leaders spread lesser yamas to different Hells to serve judgement to the residents of different realms

>>43242497
>Eiki stated Hecatia is "one of our organization's leaders".
She does? Where?

>>43242497
Eiki only ever claimed that Hecatia was "a" leader, but she is never acknowledged as being part of the Ministry of Right and Wrong, and Hecatia's own dialogue in AFiEU make it pretty clear that she doesn't actually involve herself with the Yama and Kishin.
She loosely governs/rules over the hells in a similar way to how Yukari and the other sages are in charge of Gensokyo, but groups like the Tengu, Kappa, and Oni don't acknowledge them as their own leaders, and if the sages want something from them, they'd need to negotiate, manipulate, or coerce them into cooperating; they can't simply lay down the law and expect them to follow orders. They're treated with respect due to their power, but they're still considered outside of their group.
And Hecatia would have even less direct influence than them, given both her own philosophy and Hell's general decentralized nature. She's "in charge" because of her sheer power and ability to be everywhere at the same time, not because she's really their ruler.

>>43239633
i like that one anon it's cute

>>43242650

>>43242668
Ah, okay. Thought that since Hecatia was mentioned to be a leader, it would make sense for the Ministry to govern all Hells

>>43228095
>Never been on /v/
that's the blandest lie i ever heard you cocksucker wtcfaggot. so why even save this soijak meme post you fucking brainded liar

>>43242668
I always find it funny that the sages have to "negociate" with the Factions when they could just flex by shuting down the barrier for 1 hour, or even better, suspending zones in gensokyo, imagine for a moment if the entire youkai mountain get thrown out in the outside world.
"Have fun with the JSDF, bird fucks"

>>43244474
They're pretty resourceful people, and directly threatening people is a good way to drive them all against you. They're all the type to operate behind the scenes and pull strings where needed.
And it's not as if they're adverse to putting bitches in their place from time to time; the Four Seasons incident was basically just Okina flexing on the Tengu and other groups to remind them that they had best behave themselves or else. (Not that it seemed to have done much good, considering Megumu's scheme)
It's generally not that hard for them to push for a favorable deal, or subtly convince their target that it's in their own best interest to cooperate.

>>43244474
That would go against the core tenet of Gensokyo, which is the preservation of supernatural life. Yukari may have introduced hostile elements on the sly before, but it had been always in ultimate service of Gensokyo. Threatening the very creatures she's dedicated her power to protect would be counter-productive, especially in light of many youkai lacking a self-preservation instinct of their own.

>>43245923
The outside world will rise up and destroy gensokyo and every youkai

>>43245923
The outside world will rise up and fuck gensokyo and every youkai

>>43240705
They will bite your dick

>>43245923
i dont know how much of this is true, the gamble of yukari with the lunarians in SSIB could have ended in lunarian sending a punitive expedition to gensokyo to recover what was stolen. (yuyuko was more smart than her) and it is stated by ZUN himself that okina put her interesting first and gensokyo second. if anything, there is a reason both sages are despised or avoided.

>>43248441
I'm not sure how any of that is relevant to the question at hand.

Repostan theory thing because I'm bored:

So we all already know about the whole "humans beat Lunarians in the future" thing right? I would like to expand a bit upon that.

Time and time again throughout canon we're told that Lunarians have a massive technological advantage over everyone, including the Outside World, and are basically the only faction in existence that is skilled in both technology and spiritual matters. With a thousands, if not millions of years headstart over everyone and technology exceeding everyone's wildest dreams, how could they have possibly lost to the humans?

I think the answer lies in numbers, time, and motivation. Reimu describes the Lunar Capital as even tinier than Gensokyo is. While childbirth isn't explicitly described as something that produces impurity in-canon, it does produce kegare in IRL Shintoism, so there's a fair chance that the Lunarians population growth is pretty much stagnant. Exact numbers on how many Lunarians there are is scarce, but if they live in a space smaller than Gensokyo and have no population growth, there likely aren't that many of them. With a low population, small area, no population growth, no influx of new ideas, and fervent distaste for anything not originating from their safe-space, the environment the Lunarians live in isn't conducive for any kind of growth or progress at all, and that includes scientific or militaristic progress.

We know for a fact that at least 1500 years ago the Lunarians had cryonic technology (which was considered cutting-edge at the time). We've had the ability to put people on ice since 1976, and more efficient techniques like vitrification since 2006, but we still lack the ability to revive those we froze. It isn't clear if Lunarians also were in a similar situation, because the guy they froze wasn't unfrozen for 300 years, but roughly speaking the Lunarians had 1976/2006-technology or near-future technology about 1500 years ago.

We also know that Yagokoro left the moon about 1200-1300 years ago, and with titles like "Brain of the Moon" and being the Lunar Capital's founder, was likely one of it's foremost intellectuals and best scientists.

Lunarians also have a fairly laid back lifestyle. They do their standardized tasks and then play shogi and shit all day. With infinite lifespan no one is ever in a rush to get anything done.

All of this combined makes it easy to see why Lunarians get BTFO'd by the humans in the future. The Outside World likely has a far, FAR greater population than the Lunar Capital, and with that population all the varying ideologies, faiths, cultures, etc. comes a far greater pool of ideas to work with, as well as a far greater pool of researchers and workers. The Lunar Capital may have had a headstart but I'd bet the overall rate of scientific progress is much higher in the Outside, allowing the humans to catch up (technologically) with the Lunarians at a far accelerated pace. The Lunarians also don't really have anyone to war with, and their "conflicts" are slapfights at worst, while there hasn't NOT been a major conflict killing thousands if not millions at any given point in time in the past 1,000 years of human history. This is why the Lunarians were blindsided by the humans "modern weaponry" and why the tide of the war was in humanity's favor.

>>43242668
>>43243085
She says "Hecatia-sama" (in deference, I remind you also that Eiki is otherwise THE top dog in Hell, so calling Hecatia "sama" means she considers herself beneath Hecatia) and in the context of everything Reimu is there asking about Hell as an organization to which Eiki says Hecatia is a leader.

She's a leader, whether she has willingly taken the position or not.

>>43222618
Fuvk of newfag

>>43253233
Eiki's not a big deal at all. She's just a standard-issue yama, a lesser judge working under the Ten Kings, who are explicitly stated to be at the top of the Ministry of Right and Wrong.
And since Hecatia is a big shot, even if she's not Eiki's boss, and Eiki is a very polite and proper woman, she'd naturally refer to Hecatia in a very respectful manner.

Besides, "Hell" really cannot be considered to be an organization. Hecatia explains in no uncertain terms that hell is a place that's highly individualistic and most just do as they please without taking heed of others, and that the yama and the kishin forming a proper organization is highly unusual and rubbed a lot of hell's dwellers the wrong way, though she herself doesn't mind them. The most that can be said about Hecatia is that she doesn't involve herself with the Ministry, she just regards them as a quirky neighbor.

>>43240718
>do they each all have their own yama organization?
I believe it's a great, very old (and very chinese-stylied) yama organization at play

>>43244474
first is still unknow if either kasen/yukari/okina can outright delete both barriers or if they need to invoke/involve the dragon god to do so, also it's also unknow if the tree are the only sages

>>43248441
Also okina just fucking despise lunarians, dunno if in greater lengths than tengu's

>>43254698
>Eiki's not a big deal at all.
She is, she auditioned for the position and is the highest judge of Gensokyo. That puts her "above" basically every character we've known of in the series until Hecatia appeared. While that is "just" of Gensokyo's hell, it's a high position nonetheless.

You're also splitting hairs. Hecatia is "considered" a leader of the Ministry, by default, since as she put it "basically I'm super strong". She also very specifically acts as a leader, THE leader of hell, and finally she is noted in her profile to manage 3 hells.

The point about her talk is to say that she is tied to the organization of new hell by default because she cannot be removed or ousted, and her "position" is recognized by the ministry while she herself does not recognize it or give a shit.

>>43224171
Love. That will be their purpose once I'm through with them.

>>43259563
that's what they're already trying to accomplish, they don't have those girly forms with fancy dresses for no reason afterall!

>>43223180
Cutefags don't like cute, they like cutesy.

>>43220482
>>43222618
Touhou is cute
Touhou is grim
These are just two of the many elements of which Gensokyo is composed of.

Touhou characters as Inside Out characters.
Joy: Koishi
Sadness: Satori
Anger: Parsee
Fear: Koakuma

>>43263848
who is Disgust?

>>43263908
Sakuya

Everyone talks about the edgy shit but not the other aspects of gensokyo that would be absolutely hellish for an outsider, such as the fact that EVERY touhou is a fucking scammer!

The sheer amount of lore and stories and official manga thats just about touhous going full "John from Microsoft"-tier indian tech support or nigerian prince type scams/money laundering is insane.

>>43264590
"grimsokyo" fags are just trying to be contrarian because surprise-surprise, people who like cute girls are going to focus on how cute they are. the actually scary part about Gensokyo isn't that 1000 nameless beast youkai would eat you, or a third of the cast would kill you, it's that 90% of the characters you could safely interact with would be malicious shitballs who would make you wish you were dead. The only actually good people like Marisa(goodish), Alice, Rinnosuke, etc. are either retarded, secluded, or both.

>>43264929
But that's half the fun?
I want to marry a dangerous psycopath that could kill me in a moment, and the more dangerous she is the greater I am for having actually done it.
If I just married Marisa or Alice, then I'd have to live with the fact I took the easiset option possible beyond some random HV bimbo, and forever know that I could have risked being brutally murdered in attempting to woo a more unstable girl.
I'm sorry, but I have to accept the scary demons as they are in order to feel like I accomplished something by winning one over.

>>43264966
Yes, I get the appeal. The reason I like Touhou in the first place is because everyone is an asshole. But let me tell you something scarier than any grimsokyo fag ever could: the girls wouldn't care about you one way or the other. You're not special or different from any other human and you never could be. For 1000s of years they got by just fine without cock, and they'll get by just fine for another 1000 without yours. I'm only saying this because we're in a lore thread and I'm looking at things realistically.

>>43264997
If i pull a marisa and manage to survive in the wild by being a complete nutcase, that ought to draw attention.

>>43265023
extremely respectable

>>43264929
>>43264966
>>43264997
fuck off cutesokyo apologetics

>>43265046
If Marisa can be a complete kleptomaniac, and Alice a total... Alice, I can be a guy who finds a PTRS that fell through after being lost in afghanistan and hunt random youkai.
That's porbably about par for the course in gensokyo.

>>43265078
Found a better image, one that coincidentally is a PTRS 41.
How badly do you think an AT rifle would hurt a youkai?
I'm adduming that somone like Yuuka or Remilia wouldn't be killed, or maybe even hurt that badly by it, but 14.5 has enough energy to poke holes in tanks.
I mean, even the momentum transfer alone would be hard to counter, these things kick like horses that have never not once skipped leg day.

>>43265118
And I stupidly forgot the image.
Goes to show you shouldn't go off on tangents without doing what you meant to do first.

>>43265075
>cutesokyo apologetics
I hate cutesokyo as much as grimsokyo. Both are equally as annoying. The first because they're insufferable fags, the latter because they (you) make a needless binary where there isn't one. You realize something can be grim and cute at the same time, right? Or does your autism force you to separate them like peas and mash touching eachother on your plate? I can understand wanting to focus on one aspect, but pretending it is all that exists or exaggerating it beyond what it really is makes you just as delusional as people who ship characters.

>>43265139
Well said.
I tend to find that cutesokyo isn't really a thing for the most part, once you get off r*ddit and the absolute surface level of garbage.
That being said, grimsokyo when taken in the broadest possible term, to mean simply the point that youkai do bad things to humans, both encompasses nearly all actual fan works, and is substantially better than the demented yurifag spammers, by sole virtue of explicitly excluding them.

What *we* mean by grimfags, are these fucking fourteen year old dowines who think that basic guro shit amounts to an aesthetic, or at least one that somehow doesn't make them a secondary.
It's convenient how they ignore all the canon shit that *does* mention the youkai on the whole not really being more than a bunch of whacky schemers, the tengu specifically being quite benelovent in that one chapter of FS, abducting (I want to say Kosuzu) during a typhoon so they can dump her home after she hits her head and passes out.
Long story short, grimfags are retards who think that being needlessly and excessively edgy in the most watered down tween way possible makes them better than someone who isn't a complete raging faggot, because they can always write them off as a cutesokyo fag due to them not being a goth dark emo cocksucker.
They don't even bring up an argument beyond like the whole "Oh, this singular panel in the manga mentions a dead body so it's totally canon you guys" line that no one actually gives a fuck about.

>>43265118
>>43265127
Would definitely hurt youkai, but I doubt it would keep them down. Physical damage alone that don't have "meaning" or "faith" or whatever behind them isn't enough to kill a youkai, even if you slice them to ribbons or blow them to pieces. Never forget that Flan, the character with the ability to literally destroy anything, literally blew up Yuuma without consequence.

>>43265181
I thought that was more of an edge case more than anything, due to yuuma being hellspawn yada yada yada
But didn't she get some part of her actually destroyed or was that some random anon's interpretation i'm treating as canon?
In any case it would still hurt anybody weak enough to actually prey on humans more than any idiot would want to eat.

>>43264929
>its another retard fails to understand that complexity hides behind even the most primitive things
But I shouldn't be surprised, "people" like to simplify things and reinforce their ignorance with validation from same-minded individuals.

>>43265199
Who in the actual holy hell are you quoting?
And what in the hell do you even mean by this?
Are you that same faggot who hides his lack of a coherent thought behind a thesaurus?

>>43265199
Don't bother talking to cutesokyofags man, their autism surpasses anything I've seen really.

>>43265212
I will take this to mean you do not in fact own a mirror.

>>43265194
Yuuma had absorbed the greed of Former Hell and turned into a monster, and I believe Flandre basically knocked the sense back into her by destroying her, resetting her to her "default" state.

>>43265248
Close enough

>>43265199
did chatGPT write this?

>>43265265
Possibly not
There was this one faggot a few weeks ago that was so far up his own as he talked like a complete reddit atheist.
I mean, I couldn't even tell what the actual fuck he was talking about this retard was using such over the top language.
Nigger never did explain in fucking english what he meant, but it sounds a lot like him.

>>43265181
>Physical damage alone that don't have "meaning" or "faith" or whatever behind them isn't enough to kill a youkai
But what if i really, really mean to fucking murder them and i have enough faith that my weapon is enough to do so, and i mean gaslight level of faith, as in, being told since childhood that my weapon is enough to do the job and fuck whatever the others say?

>>43265429
Like I say, you'd need a PTRS or other high-calibre weapon.
a dinky little 9x19 won't cut it.
Now 45 ACP on the other hand...

>>43265248
interesting, so youkais get "resetted" when they get physically destroy?
also people forget, but youkais feel pain and fatigue.

is black hair rare in gensokyo?

>>43265482
...would also do nothing

>>43265482
Gods Caliber. also could you not take advantage of youkais with regenerating habilities? its pointless wasting magical energy getting your arms and legs or your lower torso back if it will get blown away by explosive munition the second its healed.

>>43265549
Are you suggesting mindbreaking youkai with pain and high-caliber munitions?

>>43265549
you'd run out of ammo eventually

>>43265139
Cute vs grim is an eternal slapfight. No matter how much you try to point out that this shit isn't black and white, they're still gonna go at it.

>>43265600
how is it a slapfight if one side has canon information supporting it while the other rely on a much of neckbeards ejaculating on their screen?

>>43265564
yes, if you gonna get killed anyway at least make it most PTSD inducing meal of their lives.

>>43265619
because they both take eachother way too seriously and don't acknowledge the shades of grey

>>43265621
And while you do, make sure to yell, "I'm the God of War!" If you are good at brutalizing them they might believe you, spread rumors about you and you might reincarnate as an actual God of War.

>>43265619
canon has shown cute and innocent moments too while some grimfags just like jerking off at death and violence, even if they have to stretch it
both have their mild and extreme

>>43266468
You're generally correct with this assessment but I feel it necessary to clarify that the "cute and innocent" mostly focuses on the characters, while the setting as a whole leans somewhat substantially more towards a grim tone.

A lot of grimfags take it way beyond what canon shows though. It can be reasonably construed as somewhat dystopian, but it's not 40K.

Wasn't there another lore thread?
What happened to it?

Even if you think Gensokyo is super grim or something, there are worse places. Former Hell or Outside World, for example.

>>43266897
Buried under holospam.

>>43265515
No, the population of the HV is Japanese.

>>43266897
Bump limit

>>43266390
but anon thats Blasphemy, just say you are an agent of retribution from "the one and only", an unseen hostile God patron really will get the urban myth ball rolling.

>>43265139
I think this is missing forests for the trees tier.

Plain and simple, "cutesokyo" can't be a thing because death and violence and maneating are not cute. Horror isn't cute.

However, "grimsokyo" is a thing because "behind the cute face, horrors exist". Is that simple enough to understand? Grimsokyo is canonical, in nearly every single work death is brought up or alluded to. However, we are shown things from the perspective of the powerful, so that stuff doesn't matter. Similar to reality, you will often find a safe and peaceful, "cute" world, but that doesn't mean the horrors have ceased, they're simply not at the forefront.

>>43268013
You are using such a broad and vague term for being a grimfag that it could include basically everything that isn't as gay as chimata's dress.
You know that's not what we are talking about, so stop trying to lump in "acknowledging death exists" with the edgy grimfag emo kids.

>>43268115
It's what I consider "grim" to be. Since when was a society that runs off of human blood/human complacency not grim?

Honestly I'm of the grim camp but genuinely the outside world is worse by far, at least the main thing you have to worry about in gensokyo is going off the beaten path and getting eaten by some fuckwad or getting randomly spirited away directly next to the SDM or some shit. IRL sucks if you pay attention to the state of the world.

https://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/A_Beautiful_Flower_Blooming_Violet_Every_Sixty_Years
For a long time I've just held this belief that PoFV happened because of the outside world having a war or some such nonsense. Probably misheard it from other fans.
I didn't realize this short story existed...it's a more fitting explanation at least.

>>43268115
>stop trying to lump in "acknowledging death exists" with the edgy grimfag emo kids
I think you're the one here that should heed your advice
KKHTA and Harasaki's doujin are NOT representative of average "grimfag"

>>43268491
But they really are representative of those who make grimfag threads and try to make their gay fanfiction look like canon.
I like a little blood and gore as much as the next deranged sociopath, but making it to sole and total focus of your edgy headcanon is lazy and faggy.

>>43268580
>gay fanfiction
Isn't that more of a cutesokyo/yurifag thing?

>>43268988
Gay as in cringy, not literal homosexuality you pedandist.

Less of a Touhou question and more of a japanese mythology one, but why are there so many monk youkai? Wanyuudo, daidarabotchi, tengu and many more are based on buddhist monks. Was there some historical context to this?

>>43267220
Outside World and Lunar Capital are both youkai-free places so I wouldn't call them grim

>>43269650
>Lunar Capital
Agree on that. Probably would be the second best place to live in Touhou if it wasn't so sterile.
>Outside World
lmao no
You don't need any youkai for a shitty life and an awfull death. Not to mention how it's on it's way to become totally souless.

>>43269575
Buddhism expansion on japan was quite big. The fact that traditional Shinto has to mix with them shows either the buddhists' persistence or shintoists' desperation, or both.
If Japan didn't have strong traditional and cultural values it'd be a buddhist country just like Myanmar or something. At least it's not as bad as christians' inquisition.

>>43269712
>Probably would be the second best place to live in Touhou if it wasn't so sterile.
What's the first? Heaven?

Redpill me about Reimu's ability to float and Fantasy Nature/Innate Dream.

>>43272600
Abilities in Touhou are all (afaik) "ability to the extent of being able to", like the wording is nebulous. In Reimu's case she is able to "float" out of reality. I suspect it's because she generally lacks "worldly attachment". She's able to consider the reality that she'll die one day without flinching, and is very comfortable with the way of the world. So, she can drift above it, becoming intangible

>>43265621
Eiki would kick your ass anon....

>>43272600
While it is vague and nebulous as the other anon mentioned, it's pretty easy to tell that a "lack of worldly attachment" does not apply to Reimu. More specifically, she's stated as being both very lucky, and examples of that floating in the print works include stuff like danmaku bullets "floating away" from her, in such a way that it appears to Reimu that the bullets themselves are moving to avoid her.

Considering other circumstances though, it's reasonable to assume this luck doesn't apply to things she's actually putting effort into, as her attempts to get revenue and followers for the shrine invariably fall apart. It seems more likely that it only works when she's "floating through life," so to speak.

TL;DR: It's a very potent defensive ability and seems to be, on some level, tied to her luck, which only appears to work when she's half-assing things.

>>43272600
It's just lite-version of Yukari's boundary manipulation because the job of the Hakurei line is to manage Gensokyo's magical boundary.
She can "teleport" out of reality and become intangible. I doubt she can do it indefinitely or without limit, otherwise she'd be practically invincible and won't have any issue solving incidents.

>>43278950
>I doubt she can do it indefinitely or without limit, otherwise she'd be practically invincible and won't have any issue solving incidents
Yeah, she's even almost dies fighting Oni Kasen

>>43230308
That was Sanny's theory in the very start of WaHH, although it went nowhere. Almost no energy was produced.
The laws of physics don't actually seem to change that much outside of magic interference, and advances in the Outside in many techs haven't stopped them going into Gensokyo.
There are two ways tech can get into Gensokyo:
1) it's discovered independently
2) it seeps in
Many aspects of modern technology can and will fall into Gensokyo, but with only one exemple and without the materials to replicate it will be basically useless. However, if a native solution is found, then production is absolutely possible.
Sanae mentions that almost all of Gensokyo's energy comes from the outside world, so it's definitely being used for something.

>>43249907
Sorry no one answered you anon. The Capital's founder is Lord Tsukuyomi though.
About Moon Tours and the Lunar Capital:
>The boundary of the Moon is one which separates the dazzling Lunar Capital from the desolate, lifeless satellite. As long as the boundary exists, even if you went to the Moon, you couldn't get any of the rice cake or medicine the Moon rabbits are making; at most, a moonstone.
>"The Moon may be hiding a forgotten world; a lunar capital with advanced civilization where nobles live. Rabbits would make medicine of immortality while gazing at the three-legged crow living in the sun and worrying about mankind, excited about the Moon Tour."
>Merry the magician saw them:
>Rabbits making medicine;
>Celestial maidens wearing dazzling dresses,
>dancing gracefully in the sky.
So the Lunarians still do exist by Magical Astronomy; it's questionable whether they've lost or they're losing... But yeah, humans are starting to directly invade the moon, though if they can't breach the barrier they can't (possibly) threaten the capital.

>>43268483
You didn't hear it about fans, you heard it from the characters in PoFV itself. The whole world goes through the renewal, the 2005 tsunami caused the countless ghosts that flooded Gensokyo (note ZUN's sharp comment on needing to rid the world of Indians and SEAsians)

>>43272600
She's able to float
>>43274650 this is generally right for Reimu in Sangetsusei
>>43278754 this is right for Reimu in WaHH
>>43278950 this is partially right for Reimu in IN

So about the grimsokyo side, what do you guys think about the theory that all youkai actually look like their original, monstrous appearance, but use their girly appearances to lure in humans such as oblivious outsiders?

>>43283323
I'd still smash, not going to kidd myself.

>>43283323
it's fake and gay. Please refrain from posting something without any kind of lore justification.
Why do youkai look like girls? They are girls. It's as simple as that. Male youkai can and will look like males (Unzan, Snake, Fortune Teller)
And females, as you know, care about their beauty.

>>43283378
>Unzan, Snake, Fortune Teller
Bad example, they look quite inhumanish

>>43283383
... that's exactly what my example is. Male youkai exist and they have whatever appearances they want.
Female youkai don't look like monsters because they don't want to. They are females and so like looking beautiful.

>>43283378
>Please refrain from posting something without any kind of lore justification.
>Why do youkai look like girls? They are girls. It's as simple as that

>>43283383
I think Rumia and Yuuka, as well as probably Meiling break that line anyway, since they aren't based on any specific monster, so all you can really do is try and make them a generic "Hyper realistic eyes" .exe bad creepypasta monster.

>>43283411
lmao, cutesokyofag btfo

>>43283269
So is it a tsunami, a war, or the "natural cycles of Gensokyo" restarting?
>>43283411
I wish ZUN would use that bit of lore to change up some character designs.

>>43283421
What there counters my argument? Youkai have the form that they want, that's literally what's there.
Youkai today look like cute girls because they *are* cute girls. If they wanted they could look like your seventh grade satanists deviantart page, but they don't.
Can't believe you had to bring this idiotic discussion of cute x grim into a lore thread. I hope the next one has a better OP, so that more resourceful discussion can be had.

>>43283440
cutesokyofag, you *LITERALLY* proved his argument by agreeing with him, the anon's main premise was that, youkai originally look like monsters but shapeshift as cute girls to prey on oblivious humans, they aren't going to look beautiful for the goddamn show of it, moron.

>>43283438
It's all of these at the same time. You have to understand that the cycles influence the whole world, and so at the same time the barrier is shedding human life in the outside world is renovating, with the death and rebirth cycle being complete.

>>43283457
But they don't do that for preying on humans you braindead retard. They do that because they want to. They want to. They are cute girls. If they wanted to look like your gay drawings they would, but they don't, and that's because to be scary or grim you don't need to be edgy and gay, like you are.

>>43283467
holy shit you are retarded beyond comprehension, "THEY'RE CUTE GIRLS CUZ THEY'RE GIRLS OKAY?!" shows how pointless it is to have an actual discussion with you cutesokyofags, you want your girls to stay innocent and pure for the sake of it

>>43283457
Least emo grimfag.

>>43283475
I don't see much evidence for your side beyond inferring that because they can technically change how they look they are totally 100% dark and creepy monsters that wear a mask.

>>43283489
>they are totally 100% dark and creepy monsters that wear a mask.
Yes they are you chucklefucknigger, that's what youkai look like, or atleast used to look like, as it's implied they couldn't change their appearance before the barrier was set up, the whole cute girl thing is a convenience, not "hey im gonna look beautiful because why not lol, i'm definitely not gonna use that to lure in delicious humans to eat"

Why would they even need to change their form to draw in humans?
They're not going to attack the villagers, and outsiders aren't going to be able to put up a fight against them.
It would just be a waste of time.

>>43283520
>Why would they even need to change their form to draw in humans?
Because a human would be more attracted to something that vaguely look like a humanoid girl with a fancy dress instead of an alienish abomination, thus increasing hunting chances
>They're not going to attack the villagers, and outsiders aren't going to be able to put up a fight against them.
Villagers are already aware I suppose, it's mostly for outsiders
>It would just be a waste of time.
Not really, it's convenient

>>43283510
And your evidence for the last part of your post is...?
None, obviously

>>43283540
They can literally just fly over and eat them with zero resistance, Rumia style.
You don't dress guns up as water pistols to make them look less intimidating, because they don't NEED to look a particular way in order to get the job done.

>>43283555
It is still preferable to eat a prey that comes to you instead of one that is already running away scared shitless

>>43283559
How.
It makes zero difference whatsoever.
You are grasping at straws with this one, just admit that they like looking cute for fuck's sake.

>>43283559
It literally isn't secondary-san. Youkai literally LOVE to eat terrified humans. No, in fact, the TERROR is what you need! How could you be this retarded?
Pray tell, why do you think that youkai that never interact with humans would look like girls then?

>>43283457
What explains the youkais tat bately have contact with humans then? Wy would they try to lure something they barely/never have contact with in the first place?

>>43283605
I think it's a dumb theory, but it would explain ZUNtori lmao
Short armed little brat.

>>43283323
all koishi need is a hat and this pic would be perfect
not sure why satori's got more dilated pupils though

>>43283663
To make it look more edgy and cool.
It's a good picture though, since it wasn't made by anyone here.

Let's talk about curiosities: Toyohime and Yorihime are ancestors of the Japanese imperial line. Amaterasu is also probably living on the Moon or at least knows them, since she's channeled by Yorihime.

>>43283760
lunarians try to implement imperialism upon earth so that they can infiltrate it better

>>43283774
Absolutely right. They're also stated to intentionally bring conflict to Earth in order to destabilize us. It's not impossible that high Lunarian disinformation corps are involved in the Ukraine war.

>>43283679
>It's a good picture though, since it wasn't made by anyone here.
What do you mean by that, anon?

>>43283794
He said that /jp/sies don't draw and they should do it more often!

>>43283789
let's go full schizo mode, maybe they're even the reason why the outside world had an industrial revolution, perhaps after they decided that youkai no longer serves a purpose for them they helped in their extinction

>>43283789
Is pedy a lunar spy?????

>>43276416
why would you be a mahayana buddhist then?

>>43283830
Not Impossible, as industrial technology would likely look primitive to Lunarians and thus not a threat. Our immense growth in technology after that though most likely was a shock, as it's mentioned in Reisen's profile that they were shocked with the advance in weaponry.

>>43269869
Asia adopted Mahayana Buddhism which doesn't forbid having jobs or privilege monks unlike Theravada (Hinayana).

Buddhism is a fairly low energy religion. The great spiritual truth of Buddhism is non-self, inaction, the middle path, and that's pretty neato until it isn't anymore. Myanmar has the radical conclusion of this where a decent chunk of the population is composed of Monks & Priests effectively doing nothing while being supported by those unordained individuals who do work... Creating a kind of awkward situation where anyone doing anything of material value is effectively compromising their spirituality.
Again, Buddhism casts shade on farmers, merchants, tradespeople, etc. It doesn't say these people will go to hell, but it does spend enough time saying they're wasting their lives and if they were "really" good they'd stop all that nonsense. Buddhism in other parts of Asia have specifically made efforts to doctor that out as much as possible by assimilating folk gods WITH JOBS.

Japanese Buddhism was extreme.
Sōhei were warrior monks much like Crusaders and Oda had to kill them to unite Japan.

Nishiari who was among the leaders of the charge to sign on to the Meiji governments national evangelization program, and who spent years travelling the country with that program teaching not even Zen orthodoxy but a State-mandated ideology of the subservience of Zen to the Emperor, and the Buddhist truth of reverence for the imperial nation. Nishiari whose Japanese coreligionists in Korea and elsewhere were also doing at the time eagerly aided the governments colonization efforts by pioneering Soto Zen in the newest claimed reaches of the Japanese empire.
It was a Japanese state Buddhist that came up with Hakkō ichiu.
That it was Japan's destiny to rule the world.

>>43283411
>youkai nowday can change on their own
well pic related now makes more sense

>>43284362
What kind of buddhism that the Soga clan and real Shotoku Taishi spread? Was it as politically (or rather artificially) driven as Meiji-era patriotic "buddhism"?

>>43285395
The Soga clan had much contact with foreigners, including the Koreans and the Chinese. They favored the adoption of Buddhism and of governmental and cultural models based on Chinese Confucianism.
Buddhism arrived in Japan along with Korean and Chinese monks.
This caused the Shinto based conservative anti-Buddhist factions led by the Mononobe and Nakatomi clans to become best of friends and the Soga's mortal enemies, considering this as a Korean/China invasion.

The Soga clan were originally a noble clan who hailed from Korea who gained influence through many political reforms they brought about.
The Soga family firmly believed that the most civilized people believed in Buddhism and continued to actively promote it, placing a holy image of the Buddha in a major Shinto shrine.
By 644, the heads of the Soga were no longer satisfied to act behind the scenes. Soga no Emishi and his son Soga no Iruka began to build increasingly elaborate palaces and tombs for themselves, styling themselves "sovereigns".
Buddhism functioned as a set of ritual practices of power to be used for political purposes.
Buddhism was transmitted from south China’s court of Liang through the south Korean state of Paekche to Japan. Thus the earliest version of Buddhism Japan received was a south China variety and it was spread by way of Paekche.
It is important to notice the view of Buddhism presented here. The Buddhism of King Songmyong’s court was not a spiritual discipline. To the Paekche king, Buddhism was a powerful form of magic, a set of esoteric practices that rulers could employ as a potent supplement to their power. For him, Buddhism was a set of practices that would allow one to "satisfy all his wishes," not to eliminate them as was the basic teaching of Buddhism as it originated in the Indian subcontinent.

>>43285537
Here is the tl;dr
The Soga acceptance of Buddhism was far from a conversion in our ordinary sense of the term. They had no philosophical understanding of the new religion and merely regarded it as a superior form of magic long practiced by advanced civilizations they respected and sought to emulate.

>>43285537
Dang thanks for the heads up. I wonder where I can read all those infos.
I know there's Nihon Shoki, Kojiki and whatnot but you seems to use other historical sources and researches as well.

>>43279072
That was one hell of a fight, had the shard of the sword that cut Ibaraki's arm been delivered to her, Reimu would have been defeated.

What are the main works you have to read for getting a more profound understanding of Touhou lore? Obviously reading the Kojiki, the Nihon Shoki, Lafcadio Hearn's works, Agatha Christie's works, but what more? I still haven't looked for the comics whence Ellen came, are they easy to find? What more has significantly or subtly influenced ZUN? Has he read every reference he made?

>>43287920
>What more has significantly or subtly influenced ZUN?
Zun admits he doesn't know much about Taoism.
>There are few things that aren't hard when I make a game, but in this case it was coming up with the story. I don't really know much about Taoism, so I read a bunch of books about it. Honestly, I don't think I had read a book that mentioned Prince Shotoku didn't exist so I thought I should find some that did. People know him because of his famous quotes but the fact that he never existed becomes sort of common sense. That's the part I wanted to analyze the most, and confirm if the tales about him were true. The most mainstream of which is that not even Prince Umayado existed. I think so as well, particularly since the anecdotes about him listening to 10 people at once are baloney. That's why I made him the focus of the story, and put those headphones on Miko to make it seem that she values her hearing. While that might be because she didn't like hearing too much, I wanted to emphasize that part of her character as much as possible.
https://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Febri/Ten_Desires_and_Touhou_Project_interview_with_ZUN_Part1
In fact he made 13's "antagonist" Shotoku since at the he had been declared fictional.
>He's suddenly been made into a fictional character recently, so I used the opportunity to move him to Gensokyo. Many thanks~

ZUN shits on his own setting somewhat frequently if Rinnosuke's (basically ZUN's self-insert) internal dialogue in CoLA is anything to go by.

It is probably why America keeps popping up because of the many rumors, conspiracies and other such stories/information are said to be hidden by it.
Fairies found an American flag only for Erin to take it from them.
Clownpiece supposedly saw the flag and liked it so she decided to wear an outfit based on it.

Thai villagers along the Vietnamese border say American soldiers captured the Naga Queen.
Vietnamese villagers and soldiers say they saw monsters and ghosts with American soldiers.
Recently afganistian villagers and some insurgents say American soldiers attacked some blue skin giant and killed it then took it away.

>>43289187
There are multiple American flags on the moon you know, all of which are not the star spangled banner anymore, but burnt out white ones.
Being the only nation to land a human on the moon is the only reason the USA pops up, since the moon itself is super important to the series.

>>43283411
>youkai are shapeshifting trannies
Lol. Lmao even.

>>43290084
>There are multiple American flags on the moon you know, all of which are not the star spangled banner anymore, but burnt out white ones.
What? You're telling me that the various diffrent moon missions brought their own flags? Whoa....
Apollo Astronauts read Bible verses and Buzz had Communion on the moon you know. It was One of the first things they did when they landed on the moon.
Anyway, the real reason the USA pops up is that it is the world's only superpower and Zun explained in a interview that he sees the Lunar Capital as China and thus the natural enemy is America.
It's why he also gave Clownpiece the Statue of Liberty pose.

>>43283411
You now remember that Aya recruited Momiji and Hatate to take lewd pictures of themselves so they could sell more newspapers.

>>43290305
Red moon in the sky?
That's it.
Nuke the moonies.

>>43290305
Based and redpilled

>>43290305
Remember that nothing that has happened in the Real World contradicts the possibility of Gensokyo existing. There are high-level contacts between the sages and the US government. Wake up.

redpill me on the dreamworld, heaven and makai
why don't we see any other baku than doremy, any other celestial than tenshi, and why do demons not appear in modern touhou

Okina vs Hecatia for the fairies

>>43291622
Reisen getting PTSD
(1969, colorised)

>>43291437
Maybe zun is a youkai himself working to make people acknowledge the youkai through the games. Explains why he drinks so much beer too

>>43291668
Doremy is the sole denizen and ruler of dream world.
There are other celestials. Tenshi is just well known for being rogue and came down often, voluntarily or not (also due to her unique case of possibly being the youngest of Hinanai clan that ascended by privilege instead of achieved it).
ZUN hasn't shown much of makai and demons yet. He probably saved them for last.

>>43290280
Yes

>>43293189
YWNBAW
Miko was born as a girl
Historical records around Shoutoku are uncertain
She literally enters Gensokyo once people stop believing in her existence
She doesn't understand when Sanae calls her an old man
Please get help

Also not really surprising that Grimsokyofags are trannies

Which /v/idya character would be able to go against the entirety of Gensokyo?

>>43293189
Not a youkai, you damn secontranny.

>>43287920
>I still haven't looked for the comics whence Ellen came, are they easy to find?
Probably

>>43293270
Dante from the Devil May Cry series.

>>43283323
>what do you guys think about the theory that all youkai actually look like their original, monstrous appearance, but use their girly appearances to lure in humans
Even in original myths, youkai turn to cute girls and fuck humans.

>>43293270
>Which /v/idya character
Reimu

>>43293270
YHVH

>>43293341
Unironically, Dante has killed several top tier demons, youkai are nothing to him. I wonder if DMC5 Dante would be able to kill Hecatia.

>>43220482
why is it that grimsokyo threads cannot exist without crying about cutesokyo?
some sort of eternal inferiority complex or simply mood swings from puberty?

>>43293476
Anon, just what exactly do you think grimfags *do*?

>>43293460
Why do you think I namedropped him? If the shitty and obscure mobile game's lore is anything to go by, Mundus alone would stomp Gensokyo, much less DMCV Dante.

Let's please keep the next thread without this pointless discussion. I think that regular lore threads are great places to share knowledge and actually debate theories. The fact that Grimsokyo threads never last beyond a week shows that the topic is literally irrelevant, and countless people have already said the truth: Gensokyo is neither cute nor grim. It's both, and it's also something more. For grimsokyo friends, please go make your own threads. See if you can last more than a week. For cutesokyo (not that it seems that anyone actually tried to push this here), there are all the other Touhou threads in the board.

>>43223081
>It's AI generated.
you can ai manga?

>>43293582
Ok, now the question is, could Reimu defeat the demons from the DMC franchise, including Mundus?

>>43293270
>touhou niggas acting like beating 2hu wasn't an easy task given the AP and cosmology of the series
lmao

>>43293270
How is this question on topic to the thread?

>>43294490
Yeah, i've been thinking about that, maybe i should make a dedicated thread, though, since this is /jp/ and not /v/ i don't know if it would be allowed. (Now, maybe taking in account the canon powers of the characters might be staying on topic, but that's stretching it).

Do we have the oficial colors of this marisa outfit?

>>43294786
She stole that from Kourin

Zun's self portrait sure is something

>>43298700
I think it's pretty realistic, he juts looks a bit younger and prettier. But it's nothing too bad. The ghost behind him simply shows his tendency to interact with the mystical.

>>43298732
The ghost is the spirit that reveals the games to him make next.

>>43283411
Imagine being a butthole youkai and then being freed from human imagination of how you look.

>>43291437
Do the jewish elites have connections to the youkai sages? It would make a lot of sense

>>43301162
Yes. Why do you think most magic circles in Gensokyo are six-pointed?

>>43301128
Anon, you can apply this to basically every youkai ever, all of them are ugly fucks who turned into girls to seduce humans otherwise they'd lose their shit at their sheer ugliness

Pic related is how a satori look like

>>43301250
Satori doesn't look like that.
She looks like this and I'm talking about youkai who are goofy looking and silly instead of scary or terrifying.

>>43301281
>those butts
I guess that explain why they still retain them

>>43301361
don't worry, it turned into a girl with a fancy dress after gensokyo was formed

>>43301377
The unnamed snake youkai turned into a ugly man so I don't see this youkai turning into a girl but I can see it turning into a fat frat guy.

>>43301397
What a idiot.
If he turned into cute girl, he wouldn't have to eat and dash at the risk of someone exterminating him. Simps would have just given him money to eat all the food he wanted.

>>43301416
Male youkai actively don't want to look like cute girls.

>>43301442
Many youkai are male only in folklore. Kappa and Oni, possibly the Tengu too, are said to be a bunch of violent rapist brutes.

>>43301250
Why does that matter anon? Go kiss youkai, they love you.

>>43301471
And yet what raped me near the mountain, was it not a tengu?
Interesting theory, but it does not hold up in practice.

>>43301471
>folklore
Not equivalent to lore unless stated to.
As far as we know there are male and female youkai and there has always been (Aya is more than a 1000 years old, for example, well into the times where tengus supposedly were all-male.)

>>43301471
>Kappa and Oni, possibly the Tengu too
Wrong idiot!
Female oni are sometimes referred to by the name Yamauba.
They are normally considered to be women who have turned into oni as a result of karma and resentment, with the younger ones being called "kijo"
There is also the Legend of Momiji.
Kappa means "water children" and they can be male or female and are obsessed with politeness
Tengu are also male or female with a notable female Tengu being called Amanozako also Tengu lay eggs.

>>43298700
Here's his latest self-portrait

>>43301714
I can't help but think he should get lessons on how to draw.

>>43301499
Again, would still fuck.
She can just moosh them tiddies back together and fix it anyway.

>>43301714
He's so handsome! Both in art and in real life!

>>43301575
Good to know, but Tanuki are male only youkai, unless the giant testies are also a part of their female kind.

>>43301846
Wrong again idiot
While the male raccoon dog has been venerated over the years, the females have been largely forgotten, apparently left at home to take care of the brood while their husbands, brothers and fathers charm the world with their cheeky ways. Female Tanuki are called "Mesu Danuki“
On the other side Kitsune females are well known but Kitsune can be either male or female too.

18.5 has a pretty nice plot, with the competition between kappa and yamawaro. It's a shame people really haven't discussed it at all.
However, I still haven't understood the status quo at the end of the game and if Chimatan benefits from it.

>>43303203
Chimatan is alive, ergo she has benefitted.

>>43303203
These kappa and yamawaro really are trying to attract human men to push them down and rape them.

>>43303211
But why was she so bothered with the cards still circulating, going as far as asking Marisa to stop this, then going 180º and accepting Marisa's request to keep the carda flowing?
Also it looks like 19 will also be a card game. Chimata's faith knows no limits

>>43293411
>Gods in Gensokyo need faith to exist, otherwise they disappear or turn into simple youkai if they mistreat their followers. The stronger the faith the stronger the god.
>That's why Hecatia is strong because of the modern wicca/occultist faiths.
>tfw YHVH has the combined faith of all the christian, muslim, jewish and other monotheistic/abrahamic religions centered about him.
>tfw he is fucking invincible.

>>43305008
You just need to un-believe him, and a couple of hours of grinding and Antichtons
Reimu and co. with prep time could defeat Hecatia for legit too if they actually tried

>>43306094

>>43305216
>Reimu and co. with prep time could defeat Hecatia for legit too if they actually tried
and other jokes humans can tell themselves

>>43306306
What does this have to do with this thread?
Go away

ZUN stayed amazingly consistent between Windows and PC98 lore. It's amazing that we have so few examples of poltergeists from both eras yet they match up so closely.
Both are noisy ghosts, the noise from the Prismrivers coming from their music, while Kana's noisiness is just causing racket in her ending.
Both are creations of humans, and it's possible that Layla's creation of her poltergeist sisters also comes from mental instability. In particular, it's notorious that both of the creators lived in mansions, though I'm not sure if Kana's mansion is also supposed to be Western-style.
Both have fragile existences; Kana is fighting for her very existence in PoDD by searching for a new place where people care about her while Lyrica's alerted to the fragility of her existence by Eiki in the final stage of PoFV.
Really, it's even probable that ZUN created the Prismrivers at least a bit inspired by Kana. So much for a character that was created to fit a song!

>>43306976
>ZUN stayed amazingly consistent between Windows and PC98 lore
Stopped reading there

>>43306990
Could you mention some of these inconsistencies?

>>43306996
Marisa's hair colour. Alice's backstory. Your mum's BMI.

>>43307161
>Marisa's hair colour
It changes between games in PC-98 though? Her hair color in MS is the same as in EoSD. The only deviant is SoEW
>Alice's backstory
She has no character profile in MS, you know. She doesn't actually have a backstory there. We know from Windows that she was a human that became a magician, but it's not stated where or when she became a magician, neither what type of human she was. For starters , it's not impossible that Shinki may be able to create humans; her creations have a wide variety, and Yuki and Mai for example are only mentioned as "Witch". But even if you don't want this to be true, Alice could have simply went to Makai to train her magic. It's a similar situation with Marisa and the Forest of Magic; going to a magic-rich place makes magical practice easier.
>Spoiler
Irrelevant.

>>43307161
Marisa's hair colour was only red in SoEW
From PoDD onward, she has blonde hair, and by LLS she's pretty much the same character as we have today in terms of design.

After all those years, still completely unsolved. ZUN's greatest work and Touhou's most obscure lore.

>>43309211
>ZUN's greatest work
ZUN's greatest work is maribel and renko CD's

>>43305216
>Mouth of God.almighty
Get skrubbed kid

Do Reimu amd Marisa dye their hair to hide the fact they had purple/red hair when they were younger?

How many years old are Reimu and Marisa?

>>43309285
a better question is how old are sakuya, junko, hecatia, satori, koishi, etc

>>43309285
Marisa was a kid at PC98 times, it's stated in her profile in PoDD I believe? Then in Windows it's stated that she and Reimu aren't too far apart in age, although there is a gap.
MS occurs not too long before EoSD, this is stated. So perhaps the PC98 games happened after the 2000s? It's hard to say how much time has passed between each individual PC98 game. Either way, it's unlikely that they were more than 20 years old by EoSD. For now, they seem to be aging really well, though. I would put them at their late twenties and Reimu at around 5-8 years old in HRtP; but there are other possibilities.

>>43309253
Reimu's hair in PC98 was caused by severe nutrient deficiency
Marisa simply had a rebellious phase; she had just fled her parents' house in SoEW, and she thought no one would recognize her if she didn't have her parents' golden hair.

>>43309211
Or rather, there's no definitive solution to the mystery. ZUN states in interviews where the attendants asked about DiPP that he "doesn't know" who Pierrot is (Beijing University 2018) and even mistook Jacket girl as the Pierrot (Some high school talk show in 2023, https://twitter.com/richard_effendi/status/1629819871679901702).).

However, I've made my own theories on Pierrot and Jacket girl:
Pierrot Theory #1: There are multiple Pierrots
Honest ones tell us their end in their own perspective, so they describe things with the knowledge they have. Most of the honest ones called their murderers as "Pierrot", because they looked like clowns to them, with clothing and such. Therefore, there wasn't only one killer, but several youkai, who killed them. Only exception to the Pierrot who "saved" the most beautiful one and hid her somewhere from rest of the story. The Pierrot who shrouds the honest ones into darkness is most likely Rumia. My personal theory is that the Pierrot who took the most beautiful one captive is Yukari.

Pierrot Theory #2: There is only one Pierrot
The most common one and my theory is that it's Label girl. ZUN says how he composed the track "The Strange Everyday Life of the Flying Shrine Maiden" with Reimu in mind. Therefore, the shrine maiden on the CD label isn't a real shrine maiden, but an impostor. When most of the honest ones saw Label girl as a "Pierrot" (since she has white clothes), only one of them, the earliest riser, recognized her as a "shrine maiden". He suggests her as a "shrine maiden" throughout his story. Though, the most beautiful one calls the Pierrot both "Pierrot" and "Shrine maiden". Maybe Pierrot changed her clothes or the most beautiful one is an "unreliable teller", lying to the readers. And going by this theory, the story takes place in the time when Reimu lives, and not in 1884.

>>43310043
It's the one who was not explicitly killed, I think it was the beautiful one of the group. Everyone was accounted for, except for this one who got lured away by the Pierrot. When they said it said there was less honest men, it doesn't have to mean that they were dead, only they stopped being honest.
The guy who tried to hang himself even says this beautiful memeber was the only female of the group since he said that the woman of his life disappeared out of the blue.

>>43310043
Jacket Girl Theory #1: The culprit is Alice
The most common and arguably the closest theory to the truth. Alice has been given many such references that suggests her part in the killing of the honest ones. Though, we can argue if she is the same Alice as the one introduced in Mystic Square. The culprit, blonde girl, doesn’t look similar to Makai’s Alice, as the blonde girl is described to be mature enough to have a child. (The part where villagers say they've been seeing her daughter is probably because they mistake Marisa as Jacket girl's daughter. Both have a black hat, which can be associated with witchcraft.)
My theory is that when blonde girl ended up in Makai, she met with Alice and became a Magician through learning. When the blonde girl returned to Gensokyo, she stole Alice’s name (maybe even her grimoire) and attached it to the only personal name she owned, Margatroid. This suggests that the blonde girl is British, as both French and British lived in Shanghai during the occupation. (And even modern times, if we say DiPP happened pretty lately.) I came up with the theory after seeing the TV adaptation of Agatha Christie’s novel "A Murder is Announced" (where also the names “Whiterock” and “Murgatroyd” were introduced). In the novel, the culprit Charlotte Blacklock lived her life as her
deceased sister, Letitia Blacklock (name basis for Letty Whiterock), and carried out the murders in the hopes for a wealthy inheritance that was going to be left for her sister.

Jacket Girl Theory #2: The culprit is Sakuya
Sakuya has been referenced with many murderous tendencies and cooking skills that the culprit had in the house where the honest ones lived. Some of her Spell Cards refer to murder and one of her lines refers to Makai itself. One of such Spell Card is “Jack the Ludo Bile”, where Ludo Bile is the plant Atropa belladonna in Bulgarian slang. Same belladonna plant was used as a tool for murder in Agatha Christie’s novel "Greenshaw’s Folly". Belladonna plants cause hallucinations and delirium when indigested a few, but can be deadly when used a lot. Also, the Spell Card Maid Secret Skill "Manipulating Doll" is a reference to the Japanese mystery novel The Perfect Insider, where the culprit "proclaims that despite committing the murder, she was nothing more than ‘a doll being manipulated’."
Flandre's omake stated that she doesn't know who makes her food, even though it's Sakuya. It might be a stretch but I think this hints to the fact that the honest ones didn't know either who was making them food, they took the served food and suffered from it.

As for the whydunnit and howdunnit:
Simply put, youkai wanted fud, and the best opportunity to get it was killing the spirited away (or gapped) humans. As for the murders happening in the house, the motive is simple: The Pierrot made a deal with blonde girl to let her live in exchange of killing her honest buddies. The blonde girl poisoned the coffee (with belladonna?), which killed the most mature one. Then she poisoned the food with a way that she could manipulate the most cowardly one to kill the most wary one. The blonde girl unlocked the door for the most cowardly one to carry the most wary one out. Lastly, she killed the earliest riser with her own hands. After that she left the house, ran towards the shrine and the exit of Gensokyo.

As the Pierrot’s and the Jacket girl’s true identities are never told, we can just continue theorizing and trying to solve this mystery. It could be Muse from Kioh Gyoku or even Yumeko from Mystic Square, the possibilities are endless. I like how ZUN created Umineko before Umineko was cool

would christianity work in gensokyo? or maybe it's too outlandish by the fact that youkai (or in christian terms 'demons') roam everywhere and actively oppress humanity?

>>43310199
Eh, probably.
You'd end up being fairly puritan though.
And I'm not sure if the different branches would change anything.

>>43310199
I don't think those sort of contradictions matter in Gensokyo. I think some kind of kakure-kirishitan group would suit Touhou nicely.

>>43309518
Now that makes sense.

>>43220482
Cutesokyo and Grimsokyo are not mutually exclusive, and anyone who insists otherwise is an idiot.

>>43258513
Forgot about this post for a while.
But honestly, I have no idea where you're even trying to go with this post.
We weren't talking about Gensokyo at all, we were talking about Eiki, the Ministry of Right and Wrong, and their position in Hell's larger system and relation to Hecatia.
Eiki is not one of the ten yama standing at the top, so she's just one of many judges working for the Ministry, and she shares her rank with many other yama and kishin. She's middle management, as it were, making her not particularly significant within the Ministry as a whole, and likewise she's not a big deal in Hell. She's not even the only yama for Gensokyo, as Akyuu explains that the judges operate in shifts, even if we've never seen Eiki's closest colleague and Eiki is likely the one responsible for the Gensokyo branch as a whole.

And again, just because Hecatia is super powerful and considered to be the biggest fish in the sea, with some degree of ownership over the hells as a whole, doesn't make her a leader of individual groups within Hell. The Yama Kings did not swear fealty to her, nor does Hecatia dictate any of their policies. If anything, their dedication to law and order puts them on the other side of the spectrum of Hecatia, and they should consider themselves fortunate that Hecatia's idea of freedom is broad enough to include people creating a rigid, hierarchical organization that tries to dictate what people can and cannot do.
She's just kinda there, doing what she wants, just like the other inhabitants of Hell just do what they want. That's just the kind of place it is.

>>43310301
you're an idiot for thinking there is a grey area

>>43310186
Your theories are interesting; however, I find the lack of one of the most obvious suspects: Mokou.
I mean, extra stage theme: Person of Hourai.
Extra Stage text at the start of stage:
蓬莱人形 Hourai Doll
Full name of DiPP:
蓬莱人形 ~ Dolls in Pseudo Paradise.
Mokou's title:
蓬莱の人の形 Figure (or Shape) of the Person of Hourai
Remove both connecting の's and you've got Hourai Doll. (Also, see Alice's PCB theme)
Flavor text for Mokou's spell card "Expiation 'Honest Man's Death'"
>Ah, honest men sees the fool. But, you know, the reason you think you see the fool
is because you have a liar's perspective. In fact, they're the ones who reap the most benefit. Even if they die.
Flavor text of Mokou's spell card "Hourai Doll":
>I see, so it was you. You were that strange human. Well, then, you won't die. After all, you're immortal.
I mean, how can you even say it wasn't Mokou?

>>43310199
They would be OP
In the PC-98 games
They hunted devils, vampires and magicians to extinction or near extinction.

From the Bestiary
>Devils (悪魔, akuma) are a mighty race that inhabit Gensokyo, mostly in the Makai.

>Like magicians or vampires. It was once said that they lived in different parts of our world until mass appearances of Demon Hunters and other Christian Zealots who hunted them to extinction.

On another note
It is stated in Yukari Yakumo's Perfect Cherry Blossom profile that outsiders generally end up in Gensokyo thanks to fluctuations in the border caused by her. Since the frequency of encountering them is considered to be "low", it might mean that outsiders don't end up in Gensokyo very often. The majority of outsiders that end up in Gensokyo seem to have little knowledge of technology. Because of this, any technology they bring into Gensokyo, such as mobile phones, can not be reproduced. However, outsiders still bring knowledge into Gensokyo that's otherwise unattainable, and thus are valued for that.

Yukari chooses which humans can enter Gensokyo based on their level of spiritual power and intelligence.
"They immediately put a tool called a 'mobile phone' to their ears, and after that are at a loss as of what to do next."
— Hieda no Akyuu

Outsiders are not protected by the contract that came as a result of the Vampire Incident. In fact, the unbreakable devil's contract specifically stipulates that the vampires get outsiders to feed on in exchange for not attacking Gensokyo's native residents.
Yukari mentions to herself that "youkai may attack humans but do not eat them recklessly."

So, Yukari gets low spirit level humans with little knowledge to enter Gensokyo for eating.
She actively avoids anyone smart enough to recreate technology, those who could unite the human village and those who have a high spiritual power level. As well as only taking those nobody will notice is gone or whose disappearance won't cause a stir.

That's not to say others like Sumireko can't enter Gensokyo if they want.

>>43310461
Only if those are defined extremely by idiots.

>>43310199
It would be a problem to other gods, but it might not be a issue to youkai. But in all honesty, it would most likely end up as a fringe following like the Myouran Buddhists and Taoists.
The human village doesn't seem to be the kind of place where such a strict religion or philosophy could overtake the current one.

>>43311246
It'd end up exactly like in japan where only a small percentage of human village are willing to forsake plenty of traditional values (like the belief of gods and respect for youkai) to embrace christianism, but it'd still caused concern that some characters will act on it because of how strict and demanding it is.

>>43311315
I doubt anyone would care if it's a small following.
The Taoists could potentially destroy Gensokyo if all the humans start trying to be hermits. But just like Zen Buddhism, not a lot of people have the infinite patience or luxury to become enlightened super humans.

>>43311315
Christanity had a large following in Japan before Hideyoshi and the succeeding Tokugawa shogunate banned it.
Oda Nobunaga had respect for Christanity and Christian missionaries not because he liked the religion, but because of their determination to spread their belief across the globe despite the risks, to which he saw similarities with his own desire for his conquest of Japan.
Especially in Kyushu. Conversions of local warlords like Ōmura Sumitada, Arima Yoshisada, and Ōtomo Sōrin led to the conversion of many of their subjects.
In 1637, Matsukura Katsuie misgoverned his territory and imposed a high tax onto people and oppressed Christians. This, combined with famine, led to the Shimabara Rebellion. First it was a peasant movement, but later Christians joined the rebellion, resulting in Ieyasu's ban on Christianity. This was the largest rebellion in the history of Japan and convinced the Shogunate that Christianity was a threat to them.
The Tokugawa shoguns tried to eradicated Christianity in Japan via murder, persecution and decrees.
Many continued practicing Christianity in secret, in modern times becoming known as the 隠れキリシタン, kakure kirishitan.
These secret believers would often conceal Christian iconography in closed shrines, lanterns or inconspicuous parts of buildings. Himeji Castle has a Christian cross on some of its 17th-century roof tiles, in place of a mon, indicating that some of its occupants were secret Christians.

>>43311246
it definitely will be and issue for the youkai just as for other gods, when one of its virtues and blessings are "don't be afraid" and the Psalm 23

>>43311392
The thing is christian doesn't require you to be superhuman, you just need to be devoted enough, and the fact that it promise you direct blessings from the omnipotent Almighty God just as long you completely reject youkai and gods and make it your life purpose to spread the word would be a cause of concern.

>>43310415
End point, you are speculating that she isn't part of it when nothing has ever indicated such.

If Eiki did not consider her a colleague or a peer or a superior, she wouldn't refer to her with deferential honorifics.

>>43311856
For all we know Hecatia might just be a retired manager from the Ministry or someone whose contribution and good deeds as powerful goddess who managed to impose some authority through seer power are recognized by them and is more of honorary member

>>43311926
From what we literally do know Hecatia takes an active role in Hell's development.

However, she listens to no one on the matter. She herself chooses how she wishes to shape the hells under her control.

>>43311843
true but there rejecting the youkai could also means rejecting their ideology.
so basicaly es telling yukari in her face that her weird taoist dualism that enslave all sentient beings to their "corresponding place" is BS as kasen development proves.
is telling Seiga that her complete moral relativism is gay and she can go fuck herself

>>43312028
Did you just made Christianity sound based?

>>43312205
It is based

>>43311945
Sounds like something anyone powerful enough in hell could do, which is likely the case with Hecatia

>>43311856
It's the other way around. There is zero indication Hecatia has ever done anything to involve herself with the Ministry, and the most that can be said is that she doesn't mind their presence.
Eiki addressing Hecatia respectfully is just her being polite with a powerful figure that the Ministry would rather keep on decent terms with, because making Hecatia an enemy would make things a nightmare for them.

>>43310629
Mokou is another popular theory, and yes, there's evidence for her connection to the story. Personally I don't think she's the Pierrot/Jacket girl.
There's the Interlude in the middle of DiPP's original story, where the Spell Card comment of "Expiation 'Honest Man's Death'" fits:
Person 1:
>You were way too spineless. Don't you understand the saying that honesty doesn't pay?
Person 2:
>Ah, an honest one looks like a fool. But, you know, the reason you see him as a fool is because you’re looking from a liar's perspective. In fact, they're the ones who reap the most benefit. Even if they die.
(Fixed some translation errors from Wiki translation)
Person 1:
>Don't you think that sharpened sense from long ago has dulled with such a peaceful lifestyle? Don't you want to hear the bustle of the city once again? Don't you miss the fortune and prosperity?
After this, Person 2 stays quiet until speaks:
>I ended up in a group of thieves with everyone, like the old days, despite wanting to fix my life. Upon finishing my job, I started preparing breakfast and waited for the dawn.
It shows some evidence that Mokou might be linked to the massacre, but it could be also just a small hint that would be unlock if you could manage through Extra stage.

As for the "Hourai Doll" comment, it could be connected to Mokou's backstory of becoming a Hourai Immortal. One of her Spell Cards is called "Limit Edict 'Curse of Tsuki-no-Iwakasa'", who is the person Mokou killed in order to drink Hourai Elixir. ZUN probably had CiLR already in mind when creating IN. As for how the story goes in CiLR, Sakuyahime made the people responsible for the elixir to kill each other, which is really similar to DiPP's Pierrot. Both cases are “murder incidents that have disappeared from history”, and if “nobody knows about it, it's no longer a crime." As for how the story in CiLR goes:
“So, you think that Sakuyahime killed those men?”
“Yes. I think she killed them all and left me and Iwakasa alive. - - I'm sure she left Iwakasa and me alive because there was something she wanted the two of us to do afterwards.”
The lines from “Hourai Doll” would be logical to how Sakuyahime would react if she saw Mokou again. Surprised to see a familiar face, the “strange person” and knowing how she won’t die, since she’s immortal. It seems like Mokou has become the slave of the Hourai elixir, since it controls every aspect of her life, as if the elixir controlled Mokou like a doll.
ZUN used "Hourai" pretty widely back in the day. It was either a paradise, a doll or an immortal due to titular elixir. And all of them are right, but in this case, Hourai Doll can mean a "person under the control of Hourai (elixir)". In DiPP's context, "Hourai Doll" can mean a "controlled/manipulated/puppeteered person in a paradise", as Hourai/Penglai is the legendary paradise in East Asian mythology.

But I can be wrong here and Mokou is really the culprit. It could be that ZUN changed the culprit of DiPP/Jacket girl as he published another game to his series. During EoSD it was Sakuya, during PCB Alice and during IN Mokou. Even Medicine could be a culprit, as she's a doll and has a hatred towards humans (maybe she's too young, "just" 60 years). Anything can be possible until ZUN proves it canon

>>43222618
>>43263061
Cute, grim, and everything slim! These ingredients were used to create the perfect little girls!

>>43310043
Love the DiPP discussion, keep it going!

>>43310144
True, it makes sense when you the connection to CiLR and Sakuyahime in mind. >>43313212
Sakuyahime lured the men into killing each other, similar to how Pierrot did it. Stopping being "honest" could mean them becoming Pierrot's puppets, maybe controlled through necromancy. Though I don't find it believable, since the other honest ones would clearly recognize if the person killing them was one of their group. They eventually die in the end, as seven corpses are carried out by youkai

Next bread?

>>43315714
Don't forget to remind them grim vs cutesokyo shitflinging aren't welcome
Instead starting the thread with a good topic/info we've got in this thread would be better

>>43314311
Well if you insist, I've still got some stuff I left out from my earlier message that lead to my reasoning.
One of which is how ZUN addressed to Clownpiece in Who's Who of Humans and Youkai in Gensokyo:
>If you want to express insanity directly, a clown is the best choice.
Clown was written as and translated from ピエロ, Pierrot. (While this has been written over a decade ago since DiPP, I don't think ZUN's thoughts have changed on the term)
The honest ones (I refer them as such since the term is actually gender neutral) held a foreign-styled party in Gensokyo and had opium. I believe that the most cowardly one took an opium overdose and became anxious and delirious, which made him ran of to the forest. There, he had a delusion of hanging himself and then reincarnating. You could this was a point where the most cowardly one reincarnated as not a honest one but as a puppet for Pierrot/youkai, like I mentioned in >>43315559 He pretended to be human while also being a puppet.
I'd say it opens up the mysterious phrase in prologue:
>And right away, I stopped being human.
The speaker, most likely Jacket girl, became a puppet for Pierrot/youkai as well. She stopped being a independent human and gave up her honesty in order to get out of Gensokyo.
This is connected to the short story of Dichromatic Lotus Butterfly in DiPP's C63 version, where some person approached Hakurei Shrine:
>Oh, that girl... doesn't look like a human nor a youkai
Most likely this refers to VIVIT, as the track was introduced in Seihou, where she approached Hakurei Shrine as well. However, if we take this out of that context and think as part of DiPP and puppets, we could say the girl didn't look like a human nor a youkai, but a doll. Calling someone a doll has happened in canon as well, Akyuu stated in Alice's article that
>She has blond hair and pale skin, looking very much like a doll herself.
While it's a subtle detail, it connects Alice neatly to being the murderer. Moreover on Alice, some hidden stuff of her give a murderous feeling out of her, like the Secret Music Comment of Doll Judgement:
>If you throw away a broken doll, say, in the forest, it makes you shiver a little. That's probably because it's a doll in the shape of a person. Even if you find a broken human in the forest, it doesn't make you shiver. That's just disposing of a corpse, which is a lot easier to understand than disposing of a doll.
Not to mention, Alice's Last Word Spell Card in IN is called "The Phantom of the Grand Guignol", and Grand Guignol (in English "Great Puppet") is a French theater famous for it's gruesome plays with graphic violence. As for the "Phantom", probably inspired by "The Phantom of the Opera", it goes around and kills people in the theater, leaving it's true identity in shadows. It really shows how violent Alice's true nature can be.
Alice is the biggest suspect of being part of the murders, her being even Jacket girl herself

>>43316014
If we say all the "Pierrot murders" were done by one youkai or multiple youkai, it leaves the question for the murders in the Western mansion that magically appeared for the honest ones
The most mature one died after drinking poisoned coffee, which he thought as love potion:
>I, the most mature of our group, fell in love with a beautiful Pierrot, and fell asleep in a state of bliss
Pierrot wasn't necessarily in the same room when the guy saw this vision. It could be just one of his vision he created after seeing Gensokyo and fell in love with his own imaginary Pierrot. It can also mean Pierrot was in the same room to check that the guy dies for good.
The most wary one died getting nailed to tree by the person expected to see. In his monologue, the most wary one suspects one of the other two surviving members to be responsible of the murders of other honest ones. In his group, there's left him, the earliest riser and the most cowardly one. And judging by how most cowardly one went in earlier part, it would rise him as the #1 culprit. Then, when he saw the most cowardly one's face, the most wary one was certain he was killer. But, the most cowardly one wasn't himself at that time, and he referred himself as "I, who have been reborn", making him seem more as a puppet.
As the most cowardly woke up from "intense drowsiness", he finds the other remaining honest ones dead and doesn't understand what's going on. He understood there was something in his dinner that made him what he did. Medicine's omake has a subtle hint what it could've been:
>Certain kinds of ingredients, taken from a plant, can drive animals mad. [Medicine] learned that through experience, and established a method of manipulating humans as she pleases.
Under the effect of some manipulative plant, the most cowardly one killed the most wary one (since he would've been too hard to take out alone, hence wariness), which the most cowardly one didn't have any recollection. Of course, his human self had separated from his body and was under the control of Pierrot/youkai. Lastly, the most cowardly one says:
>I don't have any attachments left to such a world full of liars.
Honest ones were tricked into believing the place they had ended up in was a paradise, but it was a Pseudo Paradise.
Not going to forget the earliest riser, as he gives one last hint for who the culprit for mansion murders might be. He notices being poisoned and wishes for the last thing in this world to see the same shrine maiden dancing that he saw earlier in the story.
>Seems like I saw a shrine maiden at some point. Was I just imagining it? By the way, was her hair really that blonde? In exchange for my life, I wished to see that vision again. However, only the first part of the wish came true.
Note how "only the first part of the wish came true" and the guy wondered if her hair was really blonde. What happened was that the first part of the wish was "vision", and the earliest riser saw a blonde girl, which he mistook as the shrine maiden. And this blonde girl was Jacket girl, the one who carried out murder in the house and killing remaining honest ones by directly poisoning them or indirectly manipulating one to kill the other. Though, in earliest riser's case, Jacket girl killed him off by beheading him or just waiting for the poison killing him for good. After seeing everyone else killed, Jacket girl slipped out of the forest to the shrine, mocked the shrine maiden and exited Gensokyo.

When starting to look into DiPP and search for an answer, I was happily surprised how multilayered it turned out. It really shows that ZUN had fun leaving hints for his few fans in early 2000s to solve a murder mystery that was only available a short amount of time, with limited copies (from one old Japanese source I read there were only 70 copies and all of them were sold in 10 minutes). You could say the C63 version came to being because "Gensokyo Authorities" censored the original DiPP story. The truth about Gensokyo isn't that bright you might think it is

there will be no more lore threads. this is the last one.

>>43316273
I don't think so.
>>43316846