/jp/ - Otaku Culture

Shkanon is possible
Jessicatrice is likely.

Shkanontrice would be insane, but I wouldn't put it past Kinzo...I mean, R07.

MOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOON-CHAN!!!!

Jessicatrice/Moonchan is impossible.
ShKanon is basically 99% sure.
ShKanontrice is pretty damn possible.

>>4301475
Meh, mostly you have one theory that insists that Shkanontrice is doing all the murders, a theory which says that Jessica is manipulating Shkanontrice, a theory which combines Jessitrice and Shkanontrice, straight up Jessitrice, and just tons of Shannon and Jessica threads fucking everywhere.

Ryukushi sure knows how to troll.

>>4301475
Well, we do have FUCKING MOON-CHAN, but she doesn't disprove Shkanontrice. She just is a fucking troll.

Ever see West Side Story?
Imagine the Jets versus the Sharks, but rather, Jessitrice vs Shkanontrice. And the forbidden love that causes more conflict is called Doubletrice.

>>4301499
Ryuukishi didn't do anything since Jessica has never been shown to be a manipulator.
The only ones who insist on this theory are those who can't believe that Jessica could be that boring and retarded and the shippers.

Unfortunately the Umineko fanbase is full of deluded people and shippers.

don't know. there's this red
# The only one who can claim Kanon's name is the person himself!
# A different person cannot claim his name!

>>4301490
Shkanontrice is more likely than Jessitrice, the flaws in it aren't as detrimental. Both have a possibility at this point. Though ya, Shkanontrice is pretty out there. I'm guessing we are mistaking something on the theories. Such as maybe Kanon is the Beatrice personality, as Battler never interacts/sees enough to give us good evidence on the personality of Kanon.

>>4301513
Never been shown to be a manipulator? Neither has Shannon or Kanon, but it's a fact that for Shkanontrice to work the two, yes, the two in their concrete particular persona, would need to manipulate Jessica and George.
Foreshadowing doesn't work that way. And you do yourself no favors by constantly insulting everyone else.

>>4301513
>deluded
>Shannon is responsible for everything, despite the distinctly different methods of murder in every episode
Cool story bro.

>>4301522
There is proof that Jessica is a manilupator. Such as her pushing Shannon to get together with George, forcing Kanon to pretend to be her boyfriend, and her lying a bunch about stuff she should know the truth about.

>>4301520
Actually this one doesn't go against ShKanon at all.

>>4301521
We saw enough of Kanon to conclude that he isn't Beatrice.
The scenes that aren't seen by Battler are still valid you know, one way or another.
And the flashbacks are also certainly valid as well.

Only thinking that we should trust what the detective saw go against the whole "Trust between the writer and readers" that is an important theme of Umineko.
This is looking at this story without love.

And don't forget that Beatrice WANTS Battler to find the truth.
The only episode that really mislead the reader is episode 5.
The one where the GM is Lambdadelta, the one witch that doesn't want to stop the game at all cost.

>>4301520

oh, there's this red too:
6 people: Kinzo, Genji, Shannon, Kanon, Gohda, and Kumasawa are dead!
6 people, and shannon and kanon count as separate person

>>4301536
Such as the Kinzo thing. But I'm sure our Shkanontrice friend will say that Jessica really doesn't know about that either. Ah, well, the truth will be revealed in episode 7, and I think if Shkanontrice is responsible for everything there wouldn't be a need to explain anything else.

Are we retarded, we already know it's more than one person doing the killings. Fuck, half of them have been a culprit at least once. The real question is who is the 'main' culprit that is responsible for the majority of the deaths, and who is the one responsible for the bomb?

>>4301522
>>4301536
>>Such as her pushing Shannon to get together with George
That's normal teenager behavior, she gave a small push to her best friend.
Only a completely cynical person would see it as manipulation.

And she never forced Kanon to be her boyfriend, Shannon is the one who suggested it.

And there is no proof she ever lied, even the call in episode 4 could have been her mistaking some tricks for real magic, as stated by Battler.

>>4301528
Episode 1 and 2 don't have different method of murders.
Episode 3 and 4 do, and these are the episodes where something unexpected happened.

I've been thinking, and the last red text could be really Battler & Beato denying Erika's existance forever.
- Counting her, there are 17 people there. - But if she was not there, you can't count her.
- She is the 18th person - She would be the 18th person if she was there.

>>4301541
Yes, there is that. Kanon and Shannon are both killed off in the locked room scenario of episode 3.

>>4301553
>Only a completely cynical person would see it as manipulation.
Two strikes against this here.
First is that if Jessica knew that Shannon = Kanon, that would indeed be manipulation.
Second off is that in the Jessica and Kyrie fight, Kyrie exploits Jessica's envy of Shannon having a boyfriend. And as for the phone call in the fourth episode, yeah, it's possible that she could have mistaken something for magic, but her tone, and indeed what she said, made that claim dubious at best.

>>4301551
There is one main culprit who start the whole thing.
Then he can be helped.
Nanjo, Kumasawa and Genji are pretty much sure.
Rosa in episode 2 as well
These are accomplices but they most likely didn't kill anyone.

Then episode 3 was a different case altogheter, the inclusion of Eva-Beatrice in the fantasy scenes wasn't for nothing.
Eva-Beatrice most likely symbolizes the greed of the parents, so what happened was greed and paranoia making everything go to hell.
But the real culprit was surely in the background staking the corpses.

Episode 4 was another completely different case where madness took control of the island.

>>4301557
Erika's presence is never contested.
She has her own body, kills people, raise the head count, etc...

>>4301540
Yes there is truth in it, but that doesn't mean we should be retarded and take it for it's front value. Taking stuff too literal is as bad as reading too far into it. We should just be trying to get the jiff of the scenes that Battler himself doesn't see so that we don't get deluded by the lies. Also practically ALL of Kanons development is during "lol magic" scenes, so it's obvious you have to cut a lot of what happens in it away. This leaves Kanon practically undeveloped.(not like Kanon was that developed in the first place)

>>4301569
Jessica doesn't know about Shannon = Kanon, as all the flashbacks and her entire characterization clearly show.

And you should read Episode 6 before talking about what you read here of the fight between her and Kyrie.

>>4301572
I get an image of Shannon just cleaning up the bodies nicely and staking them.
But nah, there's more than one mastermind in this affair.

>>4301572
But Kyrie & Krauss still got stake'd, George seemed like a pre stake case.

>>4301590
I did, thank you. And her flashbacks don't show shit. It shows that she complained to Shannon about a boyfriend, and had Kanon come along, even dressing him up in a Sasuke outfit. And then she gave her persona speech.

From this, it's more than possible to say she knows.

>>4301599
The scene with her and Shannon was hysterical in the anime, it has so much lesbian subtext it's ridiculous.

>>4301540
> We saw enough of Kanon to conclude that he isn't Beatrice.
Oh really?

>>4301590
> Jessica doesn't know about Shannon = Kanon, as all the flashbacks and her entire characterization clearly show.
By your logic, the flashbacks also indicate that Shannon and Kanon have separate bodies, because they are shown as separate people in the flashbacks.

>>4301588
Of course there is a middle ground but what we saw is definitely the truth in some way.

For example, the flashbacks about Maria in episode 4 definitely happened that way.
But of course she can't do magic.
What we saw is the truth in all its forms, the real and the truth of her heart.
It's been stated enough times in the game.
And magic has been also said to be a "gentle lie", a deception to make your heart feel better.

Who are the ones who have seen magic in the flashback?
Ange, Natsuhi, Maria, Shannon and Kanon.
We know that Ange is a very sad and lonely girl, her creating imaginary friends is normal though pathetic.
Same thing for Maria.

Natsuhi has been shown to be very stressed by her role and to be really deluded sometimes.
Episode 5 made it clear that her delusions was made to strengthen her heart.

So what about Shannon and Kanon who have seen and interacted with Beatrice so much?
Is it not weird that they saw the exact same thing?
Is it not weird that they can only achieve love by borrowing her powers?

>>4301624
Jessica is a lesbian after all.

I'm still wondering what the deal with Kyrie is, Hideyoshi i can sort of understand him to an extent but details about Kyrie, Asumu & Rudolf are dripfed to us till suddenly she does something awesome.

>>4301627
>>By your logic, the flashbacks also indicate that Shannon and Kanon have separate bodies, because they are shown as separate people in the flashbacks.

No, we never see Shannon and Kanon talk to anyone together in the flashback.
Kanon only appears in front of Shannon when there is no one.

It's the same thing as Ange seeing the stakes, she is seeing her imaginary friend.
Except this imaginary friend has his own personality and can take control of her body.

>>4301599
Yeah. Also the fact Jessica covers for Kanon when he is going to speak, and naturally that she is very close to both Shannon and Kanon.
While not explicitly blatant, there is more than enough to show she knows.

>>4301599
>>even dressing him up in a Sasuke outfit
Shannon is the one who dressed him up that way.
And the persona speech was to make him open up to her.
He had just witnessed how she acted in school and said it didn't fit the the heir of the Uroshimiya.

>>4301651
Say, what exactly is the extent of her wardrobe, do you know?

The thing that always got me, was why does Kanon distrust/dislike Beatrice so much? The only logical assumption I can conclude is that Kanon knows Beatrice on a super personal level.

>>4301644
But Jessica allows Kanon to speak not only to Battler, but a majority of the group in the second episode.

>>4301666
Who know?
Even Jessica thought those were weird clothes.

>>4301676
I'm just trying to see if any evidence exists for a character being able to dress up, a hint of a similar shirt or a wig floating around.

>>4301681
It's more likely that Shannon is the one wearing costume stuff. More specifically, pads.

>>4301690
Hm, well, then why would Shannon offer to let Battler feel her up?

/jp/ has made me want Shkannontrice just because Jessitrice is that dumb.

Well played.

>>4301690
It's possible, but without the evidence to back it up we can't say that's what's going on.
Besides the great breast sommelier Battler could tell fakes from real.

>>4301705
Well, Shannon offers to, but note well who stops him?
Fucking Moon-chan.

>>4301700
Because of the layer of pads between him and her real breasts,

>>4301712
Jessica nearly got the same treatment, besides George seemed as if he wanted to lay his foot into Battler.

George has hugged Shannon a lots.
He would know.

>>4301627
Okay, I reread that entire scene. Those screencaps are taking out of context. The portion you underlined may not be exactly the way you think it is.
"Almost as though she was waiting for a memory of Beatrice to be revived.."

Maria wasn't expecting Kanon to change into her. Whether Maria herself knows that Beatrice interacted with Shannon/Kanon isn't clear to me.

I like the teacup theory the best. Someone post that. Both of these theories suck extremely bad, especially Jessitrice. That ruins the whole damn thing if it's true.

>>4301722
George rubbed his arm on her tities.

>>4301671
Kanon used to be a sorcerer, and Beato decided to troll him by taking away his memories and powers by sealing him away in the body of an unstable meido.

I wouldn't put it past Ryukishi!

I wonder how big a part Asumu plays in everything (alive or dead).

>>4301726
You tell him this, but that's not going to stop him from posting it in every single Umineko thread.

>>4301722
George is a faggot. You can not deny this.

Although seriously, if no one did know about Shkanontrice, Sayo is the most selfish and awful person, ever.

Seriously. George had been paying attention to her a year before Battler showed up, and they started becoming intimate with each other 2 years ago. Meaning that it took a scant 4 years for Shannon to decide to murder everyone, a 4 years, mind you, in which she was surronded by a close friend, and someone who truly did love her.

And so, she ends up murdering Jessica, George, fuck knows who else, just to get Battler to remember her. Seriously. That's what happened here. She lied to, and killed, very good people, just so Battler would remember her.

And that's why I hate Shkanontrice. Beatrice is supposed to be a character one has pity on, but I have to say, I really can't have pity on such a person.

>>4301747
Maria solved the epitah in EP1, screencap proves it.

>>4301712
Maybe because he was about to grope Shannon?

>>4301762
Taken out of context.

Battler questions about the epitaph, and Maria is just saying she knows that the epitaph leads to the gold - which is pretty obvious since the end of the epitaph says the solver will get gold.

>>4301762
..and then she points to the epitaph below the portrait.

>>4301739
Well we know she isn't Battler's real mother and is the source of Kyrie's hatred.

If she plays a big part it's in Battler's family majorly.

>>4301780
>>4301781
GOT SOME GENIUSES IN HERE HURRRRRRRRRRR

>>4301756
You forget the part where Beatrice is doing it because it doesn't matter. i.e. She knows a bomb is going to kill them all anyway.

>>4301783
She's Hanyu.
Rudolf tapped that shit all night.

>>4301783
The problem is Genji plays a bigger role than Battler family does, hell we see more of Kumasawa than his family.

>>4301788
>Rudolf fucked a God

I'm okay with this.

>>4301794
Kinzo fucked a witch, Rudolf fucked a god. What the fuck is Battler going to screw.

>>4301787
So, uh, why not just have them leave? If I were George, and the last thing I saw was my fiancee murder me, I'd feel pretty bad, man.

>>4301790
That's because Ryukishi is a fag and keeps shoving their development for more 'lolgrimdark'.

Seriously - Rudolf, Kyrie and Hideyoshi are the least developed characters. Rudolf and Kyrie especially are getting shunned, which is annoying because they're the parents of the main character to boot!

>>4301796
The devil.

>>4301796
an imaginary being made up by a DID meido

>>4301756
You can pity her if you know her goal, that's the whole point of her character.
First she is SICK, that's not something that anyone can contest, DID isn't something that a sane person has.
And considering that she isn't doing it for hatred, revenge, or greed and that there's most likely a BOMB set to destroy anything.

Add to that that Beatrice always urges everyone to solve the epitaph, that this one epitaph, Maria and the girl of the monologue of episode 6 believe that Beatrice can bring everyone to the golden land where everyone could be happy and you have the beginning of an answer.

Maybe Beatrice did all of this to save everyone.
In her sick mind, she thought that the only way to save everyone would be to complete the ceremony and open the door to the golden land.

It would fit the fact that Beatice wants to be killed by Battler, or that the letters written by Maria (who is really Beatrice) want someone to find the truth.

>>4301540
Just trying to look at your arguments by a logic point of view here...
>We saw enough of Kanon to conclude that he isn't Beatrice.
No. Although I would agree it's VERY unlikely, but since we KNOW Kanon is somehow involved, there is still a chance.
>The scenes that aren't seen by Battler are still valid you know, one way or another.
Was not stated anywhere, so no. But note that by negating your affirmative, I'm not saying that one or another scene can't have happened.
>And the flashbacks are also certainly valid as well.
Same as above.

>>4301796
a god-witch

Anyone else just read this casually, without trying to solve it? You people give me fucking migraines.......

>>4301797
The Beatrice persona's love is stronger and purer.

>>4301806
I don't give a fuck. Takano was sick, that didn't justify her actions. Shannon killing and lying to people who love her is terrible. Oh, and when she fakes her death? Yeah, that's real considerate. That ain't going to make the people who are in love with either her or Shannon feel terrible. I mean god, it makes me want to vomit.

>>4301810
>>Was not stated anywhere

That's the whole "trust between the reader and writer" thing.
That's why Erika, who doesn't believe in this at all, is considered as an antagonist.

>>4301806
The epitagh was solved by Eva. Shit still happened, bomb still went boom.

>>4301739

Asumu = Asthma

Asthma is jessica's mom

Asthma was the ushiromiya family cumrag, rudolf and kinzo both tapped that on the reg and called her beatrice.

So when jessica has an asumu attack, she turns into beatrice because her spirit is in jessica.

Umineko solved.

>>4301825
Trust between the reader and writer? Trust would be to expect that people would notice that three different people are the same faggot!

>>4301828
Eva didn't say anything about a bomb.
Considering she survived, she probably knew that there was one.
But she didn't say anything to anyone, that's why everything continued.

>>4301572
>Rosa in episode 2 as well
Please elaborate.

>>4301800
taht's why they are left, because the past is a bit shady in that regard

>>4301837
>Considering she survived, she probably knew that there was one.
Or maybe she killed the culprit before he/she planted it?

>>4301833
at least the servants know
maybe Jessica, maybe
do you really expect for Krauss and Natsuhi to notice?

>>4301840
Play episode 2 again.

She goes to see Kinzo and states that she met him.
Control all the keys.
Was there during the confrontation with Beatrice in the chapel yet never says anything about it.
Got a letter we never learned the content.
Flee from the house at the end of the episode, probably knew about the bomb.
She panics when Battler touches Shannon's body, a reaction she didn't have with the other corpses.

>>4301855
I don't expect for Krauss and Natsuhi to know, but the servants and Jessica should. I mean, argh, it's so contrived! Maybe if you had Jessica not be close with Shannon and Kanon, maybe if you didn't state that Kumasawa was like a mother to Shannon and Kanon, then I could understand. But them not knowing? Really?

>>4301846
No, the bomb really exploded.
It's probably the one thing that can't change in every episode since it's the one event that "cloture" the game.
At the end of the second day, everyone die.

>>4301863
Kumasawa know, she is Virgilia after all.

>>4301874
Well, then Kuwasama is a sick fuck herself too.
Letting everyone die like they do, what the hell man?

>>4301863
the servants know, it's been specifically showed how they talk to each other, especially Genji and Kumasawa, also possibly nanjo (let's avoid other doctors)
Jessica should know, but people keep saying it doesn't have any foreshadowing, so...
Gohda doesn't, he's stupid
There's nothing pointing tehy don't know, it's not contrived at all, really easy
Servants and nanjo-yes
Jessica-possibly
Natsuhi and Krauss- moon hauses

>>4301874
Same as Genji, who is Ronove. I'm guessing Jessica is Gaap, as Gaap is Beatrice's rude friend.

>>4301880
she wants money, period
she thinks she deserves part of the Ushiromiya inheritance since she's been working there for at least 30 years, more or lesss and was possibly Kinzo's lover

>>4301889
So, uh, Gaap killed herself? And actively supports Beatrice's goals?

>>4301889
wasn't there proof pointing to Nanjo being Gaap?

>>4301880
Yeah Kumasawa is probably the most horrible of the 3 servants.
Nanjo do it for his sick grand-daughter.
Genji is a fucking SAMURAI who is following his master's will, even if it means dying for it.
Kumasawa? Greedy bitch who probably thought that Shannon wouldn't touch her.

>>4301890
After all Virgilia was the previous Beatrice...

Someone explain Jessica's crazy eyes in Ep6.

>>4301889
Gaap = Nanjo.

>>4301899
no, she was Kinzo's lover, maybe mother of Beatrice II
I think she deserves money

>>4301902
Demonic possession.

>>4301831

...although this is probably a joke, i find the name resemblance interesting enough to go through and consider this:

>asumu is jessica's mom

Not possible. red truth said that the battler we know is not the son of asumu, yes, but that someone else named "battler" was asumu's child. unless jessica's name is actually battler...but this is just getting too weird

>asumu is beatrice

Nope. Beatrice died in 1967. We know this for a fact. But asumu died in 1980, when battler was 12 I think

>kinzo and rudolf tapping that

rudolf yes, but kinzo? well i wouldn't put it past him...

>spirit of asumu in jessica

i dont think so tim. when have we ever seen jessica acting different after an asthma attack?

>>4301825
>That's the whole "trust between the reader and writer" thing.
No it's not. The trust points to that the writer will not pull shit out of nowhere.
Denying something like a proofless flashback is okay because of Knox 9th.

>>4301920
Well, Shannon = Kanon = Beatrice is not out of nowhere, but the notion that she'd manage to fool everyone, on the other hand, is. George has an excuse because he never sees Kanon, but for Jessica, it truly is contrived.

>>4301933
the perfect theory, too bad Gohda is stupid enough even for THAT

>>4301914
>i dont think so tim. when have we ever seen jessica acting different after an asthma attack?

My memory may be off but I seem to remember a point back in EP2 when jessica runs off to her room and starts having an attack, then kanon runs to get an inhaler, comes back, and sees beatrice standing in front of jessica's door.

Thats more of a jessitrice side-clue tho

but one thing i do believe is that asumu is probably an essential part of the answer to the whole mystery, but i dont believe she was beatrice or lives in an inhaler of whatever the other poster was going for.

anyone has the Hachijo Touya=Asumu mathematics and japanese numbers thing?

>>4301902
Jessica didn't want to kill Kyrie so she had to be coerced into doing so. Since all fantasy scenes have some element of truth and Battler's the GM so the mystery should be easier to solve, perhaps it suggests Jessica never (willingly) murders anyone.

But the scene didn't happen because Kyrie was still alive until Erika killed her, so make of that what you will. I've also thought of Jessica as the likely mastermind (Beatrice or not), which is opposed by this theory.

>>4301962
Could be symbolic of the Beatrice persona taking over and killing Jessica.

>>4301982
>>4296819
It's on page 10.

>implying Beatrice is an inhaler

>implying anything you've said about Asumu makes sense

>>4301986
From what I've heard, she wasn't possessed so much as given buffs. Regardless, with the whole Shkanontrice thing, it feels like a cheap trick. Still, I suppose it is worth it to see Battler ending up with Shannon at end, and watching George BAAAW.

>>4301988
thx
POSTAN

Warning: Lots of pronunciation plays (onyomi, kunyomi) and character-assigned-a-number tricks somewhat reminiscent of those esoteric Hebrew value=meaning puzzles, which makes sense because of all the Hebrew-based demons Ryukishi is conjuring up.

Let's start with the explanation to Hachijou Touya's (八城十八) pen name: 伊藤幾九 郎〇五七六

Now we agree to use these pronunciations and assign numerical values to them (based on the pronunciation)

伊 (i = 1)
藤 (tou = 10)
幾 (iku = 1,9)
九 (kyu = 9)
郎 (rou = 6)
〇 (maru = 0)
五 (go = 5)
七 (nana = 7)
六 (roku = 6)
Simple enough. We can now get 11019960576 from that.

Taking Touya's (十八 = 18) name into consideration, we can calculate:
11019960576 = 8^18
In other words,
18's 8乗 (18's hachijou, as 乗 can be pronounced "jou", lit. "to the power of")
The pronunciation can now be written as 八城十八 (Hachijou Touya)

Still following? <Good>. The relevance of this can immediately be seen in the second part below.

>>4302003
Nobody will end with anyone, and George will stay DEAD in the end.

>>4302017


Back to Hachijou Touya's name.

八城十八, which can be taken as 8上18 (城 and 上 can both be pronounced as jou. 18 up 8? 18th exponent of 8. That's the 8^18 = 11019960576. Made the connection? <Good>.)

8上18 (18 up 8) could also be taken as 18 adding 8; 18+8 = 26
remember the cryptic 07151129 written on the door that was a bank account number? Well,
0+7+1+5+1+1+2+9 = 26
So now we've established a connection between Hachijou Touya 18+8 = 0+7+1+5+1+1+2+9 cryptic account number

Let's work with the 26 we've got earlier.
First, the surname 右代宮 (Ushiromiya) could be deconstructed phonetically and reconstructed as 後ろ38 (後ろ = ushiro, lit. "behind", 3=mi, 8=ya)
Behind 38? Oh: The 38 is behind.
Behind what? 26.

3826 (can be pronounced as mi you ni mu)
み よう に む or flattening them, みょうにむ
myouni, lit. tomorrow can be written as 明日
mu, lit. dream can be written as 夢

明日夢 can be pronounced as Asumu
With 38 behind (後ろ38, pronounced Ushiromiya), we finally get
右代宮明日夢 Ushiromiya Asumu

Oh you, Ryukishicakes.

>>4301762
basic reading comprehension
YOU FAIL AT IT YOU FUCKING PIECE OF SHIT

>>4302019
Oh, fictionfag? That end sucks. None of the characters died happy. None. And if you want to say they can be happy in the golden land or what not, no, they really can't. Eva died a bitter old woman, and Ange will never see her brother again. Depressing shit is depressing, and kinda pointless.

SIX YEARS SIX YEARS SIX YEARS SIX YEARS SIX YEARS SIX YEARS SIX YEARS SIX YEARS SIX YEARS SIX YEARS SIX YEARS SIX YEARS

>>4302042
The culprit, Beatrice, is alive, see the letters.
And Battler is most likely alive as well.
Everyone else is dead though.

>>4302045
FUCK YEAH WE'RE DOING THIS.
ENOUGH OF THIS SHANNON IS THE ROKKENJIMA BICYCLE CRAP.
MOON-CHAN UP IN THIS BITCH

>>4302054
Jessica sure loves Kanon.

>>4302053
So, wait. The culprit murders everyone... and gets to live? And Eva, who didn't kill everyone, gets the blame? Fuck that shit!

>>4302003
She was given buffs and was possessed. Just because she got buffs doesn't explain the gray eyes. Leviathan clearly said that Jessica entered a contract with a great demon (Zepar and Furfur) and that is why she could not kill her. Jessica was definietly possessed - after Kyrie was killed she pretty much begins to cry and asks Kanon to forgive her.

>>4302053
> The culprit, Beatrice, is alive, see the letters.
The same letters that were said to have been written no later than October 4th or 5th?

>>4302054
that is ONE KILOMETER ONE KILOMETER ONE KILOMETER ONE KILOMETER
I was requesting SIX YEARS
MOON-CHAN 4EVER

>>4302054

I'd prefer a hobo George ending over a hobo sorcerer Battler ending. Mainly because GeorgeXShannon is so forced and shitty that improving that would improve the series far more than an awesome Battler would.

>>4302068
Angsty teenager.
Though the game didn't dramatize it like that.

>>4302059
so much she doesn't even know why she's in love with him, a least Kanon has (more or less) a reason, she's his SUN

Kanon calls Jessica "the sun". He also calls Beatrice "the moon". And what does the moon do? Reflect the light of the sun.

>>4302072
Jessica has issues and complains = Angsty teenager.
Shannon has issues, kills everyone, the innocent woman named Eva has the blame put on her = BAW SHE'S SICK IT'S NOT HER FAULT

>>4302072
the second arc of the manga over-dramatized most of the past things

Oh, well, we're in for another brawl, it seems. Here come the Moonfags.

>>4302074

"Why I love him? I don't really know... but because I want to know I want to be with him more and more"
Pretty romantic to me.

It's normal to fall in love without knowing the reasons you know.

>>4302078
When does Kanon call Jessica the sun.

And god here we go again: it's called old parenting style. Jessica was not always locked in a closet. Stop exaggerating things.

>>4302097
Old parenting style did wonders for Rosa, riiiight? Cycle of hatred is delicious.

>>4302090
It would if ep6 had actually given ANY reason as to why Jessica fell in love with Kanon
really, the whole GeoSha was a bit forced, but Jesskano reeks of being forced, Jessica doesn't love Kanon, she wouldn't even kill for him, when it was clearly shown the rest were fine to do it

>>4302097
The whole ep6 is about Kanon calling Jessica the sun
also this>>4302100

>>4302097
Dude, she locked Jessica in an enclosed space to teach her manners. And she also killed a goddamn baby. I think we can say her methods were a bit over the top.

>>4302110
DARK enclosed space, possibly with Jessica crying a lot

Same presentations and arguments every night.

>>4302101
Also, they don't get married at the end. Now, that is rather odd, considering Shkanontrice and all, if Battler and George could marry the same person, why couldn't Jessica?

>>4302101
Jessica loves Kanon, see the quote.
Seriously their love seems purer than George/Shannon in episode 6.

>>4302116
Shkanontricefags versus Moonfags. It's like BURE vs RUMBA.

>>4302118
she didn't win, because her love 'wasn't strong enough'
tl;dr Kanon loved her, jessica didn't

>>4302088
Fucking school must be out. There goes semi-intelligent debates talking about what really is going on, here comes shitty half-truths to delude and make what I want to happen look real.

>>4302118
Beatrice got out of the competition with Shannon and Kanon, and she hijacked Erika's marriage in the end, that's why.
Geroge and Shannon won.

>>4302122
And yet, when push comes to talk, they do not get married, and she is unable to kill for him.
Seriously, how can she say she loves him if she won't even eat his po-, er, I mean, kill for him.

>>4302124
What does that make Doubletrice, then? Ringo Mogire Beam?

>>4302122
Jessica and Kanon love seems really forced, just re-read those parts at ep6, it doesn't feel natural at all, it's the atmosphere surrounding them, it's just too... weird
I don't doubt George and Shannon beacuse they actually look like they're in love, alsoI don't doubt Kanon, but Jessica's part... hey guy I just confessed to, let's have a love duel against two people taht have engaged, stupid

>>4301860
>She goes to see Kinzo and states that she met him.
Just like Natsuhi/Krauss/Jessica/Nanjo/Genji in all episodes, and most people in every other episode during Kinzo's meeting.
>Control all the keys.
If I do remember correctly, the people around the chapel key were all sleeping when the chapel incident happened. Only after Jessica's death (or not, who knows) that she kept the keys. Did I say something wrong here?
>Was there during the confrontation with Beatrice in the chapel yet never says anything about it.
Suspicious, but proves nothing.
>Got a letter we never learned the content.
Same as above.
>Flee from the house at the end of the episode, probably knew about the bomb.
Same as above. Also, since when she knew about the bomb? She might have find it while hiding. Or perhaps, after interrogating someone.
>She panics when Battler touches Shannon's body, a reaction she didn't have with the other corpses.
Wouldn't she be more relieved that he did that then? I mean, if someone else touched the corpse and changed its position, it would be way harder to determine how the person was killed.

TLDR - Rosa IS suspicious. Way TOO MUCH suspicious. And exactly because of that we should be careful. Because even though she does have a weird behaviour and keeps secrets, evidences don't actually point towards her - Battler himself is her alibi during most of the time! She could be someone between the mastermind and the killer in this episode.
In fact, I also believe Rosa is partialy to blame in episode 2, but what I have is exactly the same as you - only intuition, no evidence. And we know intuition only is not enough. R07 even stated that episode 2 were the hardest to solve.

So.... I don't really want to further the Shkanon/Moon-chan debate.

But I want to reread 1-4 and see what I can come up with. Without alluding to any preconceived ideas, what clues should I keep in mind as I read?

>>4302150
> R07 even stated that episode 2 were the hardest to solve.
And things like this don't help. Or do they?

>>4302152
Just focus on Shannon, Kanon, and Jessica.
Look for inconsistencies in behaviour, look for any connection to Battler, basically, when anyone of the three comes up, try and cap that shit, you.

>>4302152
Evidence of Beatrice, whether fake conversations with or talk of her. Possible motives for people who could be Beatrice. Connections to Battler 6 years ago.

>>4302129
>There goes semi-intelligent debates
What the fuck am I reading? Ahaha, are you serious?

I'm all for calling out Moonfags on their shit, but don't delude yourself, Shkannontrice is fucking nonsensical and garbage too. Keep throwing rocks in your glass house though, it's hilarious.

>>4302163
See, I almost wanna say it's irrelevant, but her randomly omitting Jessica's corpse the second time is a bit suspect.

But then again, can't it be solved by Shkanontrice? Kanon become Shannon, problem solved?

Regarding Episode 2's chapel scene; when all of characters are shown in their current locations prior to the next chapter intermission, Shannon is the only one who isn't present.

>>4302164
I don't want to go in suspecting Shkanon or Jessica. I want to look at it with a fresh light and see if I can come up with any other inconsistencies.
>>4302176
Okay. I really hope I somehow have a grand revelation like Battler...

Brb looping Shinyaku no Yoru.

>>4302100 Old parenting style did wonders for Rosa, riiiight?

No, but I think having siblings nearly a generation older than her did more harm than Kinzo ever did. At least the other children grew bitter together; Rosa was just subjected to hatred from her earliest memories.

>>4302152

Seconding >>4302176. I think we've become so focused on Shkannon and Jessica we're not considering the possibility that Beatrice could be anyone else, or there could be a second Beatrice that isn't one of them.

>>4302181
Actually, the fact that "The corpse of" was omitted from the red that second time is what I was referring to.

>>4302181
but for that ommission, it feels weird. Shkanon just proves that X personality died, but doesn't mean anything over that EXTREMELY suspicious: I put everyhing in red but the corpse of

>>4302179
>>Shkannontrice is fucking nonsensical and garbage too
ShKanontrice is nonsensical and garbage, I agree.

But at least it's heavily supported by what happen in the game, the people who fight for it actually use shits who happen in the story and it has a lots of clues and foreshadowing going for it.
That's why nobody can ignore it, no matter how stupid it seems.

The Moon-chan shit though basically centers everything on 2-3 scenes that could be seen in a lots of different way (see the Battler/Jessica discussion about her love affair where she is obviously talking about Kanon, or the corpse one) and ignore everything else like all the flashbacks and overall characterizations.

>>4302163
All that red doesn't really matter as long as the culprit had jessica's key on hand and just placed the key back in the room as he/she entered with the others. Rosa's a prime suspect for this since she's the one who found the key.

>>4302163
It doesn't, because second statement makes the first invalid, which goes against red being always the truth.
In other words, red is bullshit.

>>4302215
there was an extra master key, it doesn't matter

>>4301472
Stop spamming www. anon
talk
. com thanks.

How did I cap shit?

As someone rather on the outside looking inside with this whole Umineko business (I only watched a bit of the anime and otherwise only have disjointed spoilers), could someone explain to me what all this Shkanon craziness is about?

>>4302259
In the series, there are two servants.
Shannon, and Kanon.
They both have love interests.
And, apparently, they both, are the same person.

>>4302259
Shannon is Kanon is Beatrice.

>>4302270
That's what I thought (I watched up to partway through game 3). I am also certain that we have seen them in the same room many times over with other people present. So that in mind I must ask:

wut?

>>4302259
read the novels, if you could watch the anime, it's not difficult

>>4302254
Enjoy your Print Screen.

>>4302278
In EP1-4, if Battler isn't in the room with them, it is suspect to suspicion.

Which is why Kumasawa transformed into Virgilia and had an epic magic fight in the rose garden with Beatrice. If Battler was viewing it, if Kumasawa really was murdered out there, there would have been no magic.

>>4302278
It is, really, really dumb.
Like, I've been supporting the Moonfags, not so much because they make a stronger case, but because Shkanontrice just makes the series so goddamn stupid. And yet, it's the truth. Which makes me wonder what these last two episodes will be about.

>>4302278
Rule one of Umineko: Only what Battler sees can be trusted.
Rule two of Umineko: You cannot trust what Battler sees half the time.

>>4302163
Like how
"the corpse of" is white. LOL

>>4302317
Well, as said by Ronove, one can have a corpse that isn't really their corpse. Stupid, I know.

>>4302163
I have not see anything as convincing as the jessetrice arguments.

Shannon being the culprit is almost purely based on pure speculation without solid evidence.

>>4302336
Well, Shannon having a means to plothack her way out of any dead body situation is useful.

>>4302351
Wat?

Explain?

>>4302351
but that lacks a lot
you can prove she's the accomplice, but from that instantly derivated into her being the culprit
people I don't know why connected Shkanon being true with her being the culprit

>>4302359
Think of it like this;

In a situation where Shannon or Kanon has to die, Shkannon switches personalities for the rest of the game, leaving either a fake corpse or something.

The only time they were killed together is in ep 4 I think.

In episode 2 it's said in red that "The only master keys are the ones that each servant holds, one per person", and later that"The only way to lock this door is with Jessica's single key or the master keys, only one of which is held by each servant".

So, it means that there is one and *only* one master key held by each person among the servants, and no one else. And it is later said, still in red, that there are five master keys.

That means there's five persons counted among the servants, and thus Kannon and Shannon have to be separate persons. Poof, there goes Shkannon.

>>4302306
Doesn't Erika see them togheter in episode 5, when she is the detective?

>>4302373
She did, plenty of times. It's just that we aren't given any insight in her point of view for the entire episode. So we have no idea what she's thinking.

>>4302368
Krauss and Natsuhi don't know that Shannon and Kanon are the same persons.
So they gave them their own master keys, it's logic.

Based on what we saw of Umineko, Shannon and Kanon don't have a common memories.
It would be normal to assume that they would have their own belongings.

>>4302391
If they don't have a shared memory, how the fuck are they pulling off all these tricks?

>>4301473
Stop spamming www. anon
talk
. com thanks.

>>4302368
>>4302368
Dont bother Shannonfags are basing everything off assumptions and creating theory's that are independent of what is shown in the novel

>>4302394
They don't, it's the third personality who does.
Beatrice is "superior" to both Shannon and Kanon, she probably has the memories of both.

>>4302391
only when you base it on and unsupported concept that Shannon/kannon are the same person.

I want to see a smoking gun example of how they are the same person.

>>4302391
But it isn't about Krauss and Natsuhi here, it's about the red, which says there's only one master key per *person*.

>>4302406
Then she's an asshole.

>>4302410
Dont bother the shannonfags arent basing this off of logic or the rules of the game at all.

they sit down and think up things that are never given in the novel. Read most of the shit they come up with. Most of it has no basis within what we are presented with in the novel.

>>4302361

>>4302368

Each personality is counted as a different person. This explains the issue of the master keys and Episode 3's first twilight. I believe this doesn't contradict what is said in Episode 6 concerning the 17 that Battler, Beatrice, and Erika argue about but I'd need to know whether or not what Battler said was

>Including you[Erika], there are 17 people on this island

or

>including you[Erika], there are 17 humans on this island.

Yes, there is a significant difference between "people" and "humans".

>>4302330
>>4302336

Jessica's corpse in red
Jessica is here in red.
Nobody is hiding in red.

So if that's corpse isn't her corpse, where is Jessica?
Since she has to be in the room in plain view.

>>4302017
>>4302026
you could have at least posted asumumath.jpg!

>>4302315
>Rule one of Umineko: Only what Battler sees can be trusted.
Change it to "Only what the detective sees can be trusted".
>Rule two of Umineko: You cannot trust what Battler sees half the time.
Change it to "You cannot trust what the detective sees half the time because he/she is heavily drunk, far from the person/object in a dark, rainy night or because he/she wants to incriminate a certain person".

>>4302419
the same as always, you still haven't given me a valid answer of where is the ALIVE jessica, because we know that when poeple count they're alive, dead peopel never count
and since it's the same as always:
ep4: you are all alone on this island (there were like 15 corpses)
ep5: a corpse doesn't necessarily to be one

>>4302361

I thought the basis for Shkannontrice was that Battler promised to take Shannon away from the island 6 years before the game started, then broke his promise by never returning.

In Episode 1, Hideyoshi and Kanon see 'Shannons' corpse, correct?

Now, under the Shkannon theory, this Shannon corpse is Kanon's body dressed as Shannon, correct?

Red: "Regarding unidentified corpses, their identities are guaranteed! ---Therefore, no body double tricks exist!---"

What is dressing up another corpse as someone else if not a body double trick?

That means the only person who could be there is Shannon. Whether she's actually dead or not is up in the air still- but it can be no one else but Shannon.

But then who's that guy standing there next to Hideyo- oh right, that's Kanon!

>>4302435
Episode 6: there is 17 people including Erika.
Well after the murders started to happen.

Explain this.

>>4302418
>Each personality is counted as a different person.

Still doesn't work, since each person possess *only one key*. To fit that, shkannon would need to have both their keys, and since they share the same body that'd actually mean both have more than one key, since each has the other one's key too. No way around it.

>>4302441

Ronove explained that even something that is not a corpse can be called a corpse so long as it isn't examined. Battler, George, and Jessica never enter the shed to confirm whether or not what's on the ground is really Shannon's corpse.

However, you'd think that one of the people that entered the shed wasn't in league with the culprit and would notice the whole Shannon corpse yet Kanon lives issue but nooooooo.

>>4302441
Shannon's body was identified so the red text doesn't wok on her.
The identification could be wrong or the one who identified the corpse could be lying.

>>4301473
Stop spamming www. anon
talk
. com thanks.

>>4302453
Or they keep their own key in their own set of clothes.
It's easy and logical.

>>4302418
You are the 17th person =/= there are only 17 people.
Goddamn, Shkanonfags can't even see through ridiculous tricks with words R07 plays! I bet they still think Kinzo is there smoking a cigarret in Natsuhi's bed.

>>4302464

So Hideyoshi is now a liar?

They fooled Erika and Natsuhi etc in Ep5 by 'bloodying' some blankets and putting them over stuff. Hideyoshi says he clearly saw Shannon's face.

I could see Hideyoshi mistaking an alive Shannon for dead if she put the blood-look-alike stuff on her face, but how do 'make' a corpse, face included?

>>4302435 because we know that when poeple count they're alive, dead peopel never count

Bullshit, the dead still are included in the total number of people on the headcount. This is why any theory requiring underlings can not work, which Pony and Kyrie largely require.

>>4302464
NO
BODY
DOUBLES
ALLOWED
PERIOD

>>4302441
>Red: "Regarding unidentified corpses, their identities are guaranteed! ---Therefore, no body double tricks exist!---"
That one's a dirty rethoric trick: technically Shannon's corpse wasn't unidentified!

Hideyoshi did tell everybody it was Shannon's, without letting them see the body. Thus, the corpse's identity isn't confirmed in red, and we only have Hideyoshi's word regarding whose corpse it was.

>>4302451
AGAIN, I explained this the last time
People counts are never made of the poeple right on the island at the moment, are made of the total at the start of every game
Proof:
Ep3: there are no more than 18 people on this island, red text, it refers to the actual game, but the rest is done in 1969 (I think)
Kinzo is a corpse, by what you're saying, it would be impossible to make the following statement: tehre are 17 people on this island includiong you erika, since the corpse of Kinzo is in the island, which by your theory, he'd count as one
Therefore, from this you can conclude taht corpses don't count as people and the counts are made over the pieces at th start of the game, also note how none of this reds use he word now
This is basic knowledge, the red text about people is based off the total, no the people tehre at the moment

>>4302467

Way to miss the point. It doesn't matter if the first part of the red text applies to her.

It specifically says 'Therefore, no body double tricks exist!'

None. At all.

And I'd contest that they couldn't identify the corpse if it's actually someone else entirely, as well.

>>4302473
Battler and Beatrice were correcting Erika.
She stated that she was the 18th visitor of the island, it's true since she came after everyone.
Battler and Beatrice corrected her saying that including her, there is 17 people.

That's all, it doesn't imply everything else.

You see, red text is the simple truth, if Battler and Beatrice were implying anything else they'd have to state it.
The simpler the phrase is, the harder it is to make a loophole.

>>4302480
The red text is based off the number of pieces at the start of the game in question, for more info, please read this >>4302484

>>4302488
"Therefore" is the key there.

>>4302464
Suddenly, Jessica is alive in episode 2!

>>4302496

Indeed. "Therefore" means that it was the only body double trick possible.

Unless you're interpreting wrongly and need to go take an English class again...?

>>4302484
First check your spelling.
And Kinzo doesn't count because he died well before the game.
Basically he isn't a piece in Beatrice's game of check.

Haven't read the entire thread, but for those who keep suspecting Rosa in EP2, have some red text.

>Only the five master keys were left, and 'Rosa' was holding all of them

Dunno about you guys, but the apostrophes seem suspicious.

>>4302499
Only if Nanjo is in cahoots with her.

>>4302500
Ronove in episode 5 say that it's possible to call something that isn't a corpse a corpse.
Shannon's death was never confirmed in episode 1.
Her "corpse" was identified but it's possible that it wasn't a corpse at all.

>>4302488
>It specifically says 'Therefore, no body double tricks exist!
And it doesn't change anything, because it's not a body double, it's someone else entirely.

Hell, if you think it still counts as a body double you can pull the trick even further by arguing it wasn't a body at all, since only hideyoshi and nanjo "saw" it. They simply lied about the presence of a sixth body.

>>4302490
>including her, there is 17 people.
Okay, let's do this again.
When there are exactly 18 people in a room, there are also 17 people in a room. And 16. And 15.
Do you see the difference the word "exactly" can play?

>>4302510

Read:
>>4302479

>>4302512

And that's specifically what makes it a body double. If it's someone else entirely (ie Kanon) dressed as Shannon, it's a 'body double for Shannon', and is disallowed by the red.

>>4302513
No, because red text DOESN'T WORK THAT WAY.
Seriously.
Red text can't do sophistry.
When you try to say something you have to state it throughously.

There is 17 people means that there is 17 people, nothing more nothing else.

>>4302513
No, actually that'd work if there were "no more than" 17 people. But just stating "there's 17" means exactly that, in an absolute way.

>>4302524
It's not a body double if it's an object though.

>>4302479
It was very dark and Shannon's body was clearly hidden by the door.

What you have to ask yourself is WHY the corpses were mutilated in such a way.
It's a simple "hide the tree in the forest" trick

>>4302453 Still doesn't work, since each person possess *only one key*.

Shannon has a key, and is considered 1 person.

Kanon has a key, and is considered 1 person.

The fact that they share the same body does not prevent this from happening. The red never states that 1 key is tied to each body, only that 1 key is tied to each servant.

>>4302473 You are the 17th person =/= there are only 17 people.

From Episode 3:

>No more than 17 humans exist on this island!!

From Episode 6:

>Including you[Erika], there are 17 people/humans on this island

I'll let you figure this one out.

>>4302479 So Hideyoshi is now a liar?

Rule #9 of Knox:

>Observers in the story are allowed to assert their own judgments and explanations.

Yes, Hideyoshi may be lying. Or it's possible that he mistook what was called Shannon's corpse as to being Shannon's corpse. However, taking into consideration that Hideyoshi responded to seeing the ring George gave Shannon, the only way he could know that is if the "corpse" was extremely human-like and had the ring on it(which I believe is ruled out as a possibility in 6 as it implies that all real corpses found on the island can only come from the characters present in the story), or he is in league with the culprit and the culprit told Hideyoshi that Shannon had put on the ring.

>>4302540
>It's not a body double if it's an object though.

So how exactly do you 'make' a corpse, then? And Hideyoshi said he saw well enough to make our her face and the ring, so that home-made-corpse better be damn impressive.

I agree it's a 'hide the tree in the forest' trick, but it's simply Shannon is still alive.

>>4302524
"body double" implies the body was prepared to look like shannon. And here it doesn't have to be, it entirely hinges on Hideyoshi and Anjo's word. It could have been a body that wasn't made to look like shannon, or a crate of bananas or nothing at all.

>>4302527
>No, because red text DOESN'T WORK THAT WAY.
>From 24:00 until morning, a living Kinzo could only have existed inside Natsuhi's bed.
Red IS tricky.

>>4302554

"Everybody lies to help the culprit" is stupider than the Shkannon theory. And that's saying a lot.

>>4302553 So how exactly do you 'make' a corpse, then?

Simple, call the thing a corpse and have everyone agree that it's a corpse.

Remember Virgillia explaining what magic is to Beatrice?

>>4302560
Nanjo is clearly an accomplice.
Hideyoshi was calm enough to fuck his wife and take a bath just after 6 of his acquaintances were murdered.

>>4302553
>And Hideyoshi said he saw well enough to make our her face and the ring, so that home-made-corpse better be damn impressive.
No, you don't get it, the whole idea of this approach is that Hideyoshi lies. That's why it can be anything, Hideyoshi's words were never ever confirmed. Naturally for this to work Nanjo has to be an accomplice.

>>4302569

Read:
>>4302560

Nanjo, I can buy. But why the hell would Hideyoshi lie that something is a corpse of someone?

>>4302558

The latter Red Truth is merely the result of deductive logic using Kinzo = alive as a starting assumption, not for Kinzo = alive to be true.

Nothing tricky about those two Red Truths.

>>4302558
Oh, forgot one important red!
>Ushiromiya Battler's mother is Ushiromiya Asumu.

>>4302572

God damn everyone was calm but Natsuhi, Jessica, and George.

Does that mean everyone was lying?

'Being calm' does not make you suspicious.

>>4302586
Only mean that the child of Asumu was named Battler as well.
Nothing tricky about it.

>>4302560
Dlanor said it: a pathetic theory is still a valid theory.

But here we know Nanjo isn't above lies (since he's lied about Kinzo), and Hideyoshi has an excellent reason to convince George Shannon is gone, plus episode 3 shows us he's not above lying about murder circumstances either.

>>4302579

Please re-read Rule #9 of Knox, which I have previously posted.

However, don't believe that I think Shkannon(trice) is a particularly great argument, specifically for the point you raise.

>>4302586

And the Ushiromiya Battler we identify with as the detective in Episodes 1-4 is not the Ushiromiya Battler whose mother is Asumu. Your point?

>>4302558
>From 24:00 until morning, a living Kinzo could only have existed inside Natsuhi's bed.
>Red IS tricky.
Nah, it's elementary logic predicates. basically that quote is "if A is true, then B is true" with A being "Kinzo's alive" and B being "Kinzo could only be in Natsuhi's bed". But A isn't true in the first place, so B can be anything and it won't change a thing.

>>4302582
>The latter Red Truth is merely the result of deductive logic using Kinzo = alive as a starting assumption, not for Kinzo = alive to be true.
Exactly the same thing I'm telling you! You are being tricked into thinking there are only 17 people on the island because of the lack of the word "exactly"!
You are assuming "exactly" is there, in the sentence, as true, when it's clearly not!
How can Erika say she's the 18th person in red when there are only 17, also in red? This contradicts itself!

>>4302616
>How can Erika say she's the 18th person in red when there are only 17, also in red? This contradicts itself!
Oho. When does she say that?

>>4302601
>>4302589
No, it IS tricky. You are deducting that because you are using another red text - one which Battler couldn't finish saying!
But Erika DID say in red she is the 18th person, didn't she? How could she have said that?

>>4302616
Technically this person makes a good case. Hachijou even says that it can be done. She uses apples as an example

"I can say I have 17 apples, even when I have 18 apples, because it is still true that I have 17"

But Battler and Beato say in red that even including Erika its only 17. That means before Erika it was 16.

>>4302619
Requesting picture.

Most of us have sort of an unspoken agreement that Ryukishi wouldn't make this into the Troll Arcs rather than Core, so the "It's 17." statement has meaning other than to fuck with you, but it is certainly possible that it's another bullshit trick.

>>4302625
>But Battler and Beato say in red that even including Erika its only 17. That means before Erika it was 16.
That that "only" out of your sentence and " That means before Erika it was 16" is not necessarily true anymore.

>>4302616
>How can Erika say she's the 18th person in red when there are only 17, also in red? This contradicts itself!
Oh, that one's piss easy. She never says that. It's merely stated that her presence makes the head count for the fifth episode go up by one.

>>4302635
Well, take it like this:
Beatrice wanted Battler to solve the game.
Does Battler want Erika to solve the game? If he doesn't, why not trying to confuse her?

>>4302616 How can Erika say she's the 18th person in red when there are only 17, also in red?

Again, this depends on what exactly was said. As I pointed out in >>4302418 , it depends on whether or not "humans" and "people" are treated as the exact same thing.

If they aren't, which I strongly believe this to be true, Erika is the 18th person, as Shannon and Kanon are considered separate people. However, because of the Red Truth from Episode 3:

>No more than 17 humans exist on this island!!!

Erika can only be the 17th human, since Shannon and Kanon are treated as 1 human.

With this, there are no contradictions.

>>4302641
Well, then that can't prove my argument, but it doesn't invalidate it either.
Anyway, I could be tottaly wrong here, but I'm trying to solve Umineko on the safe side, so in the end at least I won't call it the game bullshit.

>>4302645
Except Battler and Beatrice had already won, and Erika was already dying. They didn't use that red text to defeat her; it was a parting gift, of sorts.

>>4302653
>because of the Red Truth from Episode 3
Wasn't this in episode 4? Also, x >= 17, x = 17 is perfectly fine.

>>4302641
> She never says that
She does. And note that when Battler and Beatrice reply to her, they don't say "including you, there are 17 people", they say "including you, it's 17 people".

>>4302674

Gah, you're right. I keep mistyping that. My mistake.

>>4302677
Yeah, it doesn't seal the deal that there is 17 in the slightest when you look at the context.

I'd still rage at Ryukishi being an asshole though, Battler already won, Erika lost, and he trolls her, and subsequently us, at the very end for shits and giggles?

>>4302677
Thanks, I was really needing that picture.

>>4302674 Wasn't this in episode 4? Also, x >= 17, x = 17 is perfectly fine.

Actually, that'd be x <= 17, not x >= 17

>>4302695
The next game.
Without doubts, it can't be bought.

>>4302709
Oops, my bad.

>>4302695
It actually makes even more sense for the count to be only 16 if you consider Battler trolling Erika, because what better way to troll the opponent you just defeated than by telling them their mistake after their loss? In fact, the way Erika introduced herself at the end almost made it seem like she was prompting Battler and Beatrice for a reply. I think she might have figured something out after she lost, but either refused to use blue for it because it was so idiotic to her or because it was too late to use it anyway, and so her final red was a taunt of sorts.

>>4302695
But then again, you can argue about Erika not using the kanji for person.
That's why I say red is tricky.

In an unrelated matter to the 17 vs 18 issue from Ep6, I'm wondering about the code from Ep3 and 4.

From Ep4 we know there's a single Beatrice who wrote in Maria's diary and sent the letters with the safety deposit keys to at least Nanjo, Kumasawa and Rudolf, maybe others. Since the gold already belongs to Beatrice (I guess she already knew where it was or solved the epitaph herself, prior to Virgilia's red text in Ep5), this isn't too hard to set up.

The code to the safety deposit box is 07151129, so it's likely, though not guaranteed, that the Beatrice who sent the letters wrote the code on the door for some reason. The first four digits are Battler's birthday. Since Beatrice is obsessed with Battler, this makes sense. 29 November is suggested as another date but nobody present seems to recognise it. Ep5 indicates the man from 19 years ago was born in fall the year before Battler and Jessica (although his comment could easily be taken as intended to rile Natsuhi). So I suggest the remaining four digits are his birthday and this is a clue Battler needed.

This leaves some questions. If 11/29 is the man's birthday, why does Beatrice care about it, unless it's connected to Battler? Could be explained if Kinzo set it up before his death, but then why would he care about Battler's birthday?

Next, who knew about the man? Kumasawa is shown to have known (and probably Genji and some of the family knew) but all the servants were dead in Ep3's first twilight, short of a faked death. So the next question is, who was capable of writing it on the door in Ep3 and what's to gain from doing so? It's entirely different from the magic circles and the stakings. Battler notes it's been applied recently, so it has to be sometime after the first twilight.

>>4302724
See >>4302017 and >>4302026.

>>4302724
You can't really trust what the 19 man phone caller said. Especially when there's a simple trick for the card + season gimmick.

>>4302724
It's Asumu's Battler birthday.

Weren't both Asumu and Kyrie hospitalized at the same time? Then wouldn't both Battler's have the same birthday?

Didn't Natsuhi have a miscarriage or something?

>>4302789
She had difficulties conceiving a child.

>>4302724
So the man on the phone was battler?

>>4302855
>Then who was phone?
Yes, Battler.

>>4302857
Thought it was either him for rudolf. I really doubt theres going to be a new character over this, it has to be someone on the island.

The more this discussion goes on... the less motivated I am to go back and reread 1-4 to try and dray my own conclusions...

I just feel like letting R07 tell me what the fuck he's up to now.

>>4302855
It's someone on the island who obviously knows about it, but I can't see him being Battler, even though Battler's unreliable this time. Genji should know the caller because he transfers the call from an internal line. Too bad he's taken out early (and probably an accomplice). Rudolf would be a good bet, but due to the circumstances of Ep5 the caller could be just about anyone.

Battler spends the second half of Ep5 defending Natsuhi, including jumping out of a window when she was cornered, for which he has no reason other than being less of a bastard than everyone else.

Given Battler's actions in the game, I think he was supposed to be drugged and moved after the first twilight but found the gold and messed everything up, so the family had to improvise by removing Rosa in Battler's place and letting him tag along while they continued to break Natsuhi. Not sure why Krauss was murdered though; maybe someone took advantage of the situation and the rest of the family don't know about it.

>>4302977
Yeah, we already know he doesn't understand how DID works, and if the insulin theory holds weight, he doesn't understand common medicine either.

Conventional logic has no place in Umineko, because the author doesn't completely understand the plot devices he is using. The answer could be almost anything, because he could misunderstand how something works.

>>4303040
>he doesn't understand how DID works
>we were the ones tagging names to things
Ya, think before you speak.

>>4303125
Oh right, there are other ways to identify someone who had multiple personalities.

Wait, no there is not.

>>4303155
DID is also still not accepted in some circles as an actual mental illness, either, so we still don't know what the fuck.