/jp/ - Otaku Culture

It's because it's the TRUTH.

I've just decided to quietly accept Shkannon. I did the same shit you are doing, pouring through 1-4, but I kept raging over how much it made sense and stopped at halfway through 3.

I'll refuse Shkannontrice until the last episode, though.

Jessorgejohdatrice > Shkanontrice.

You trolls are really dedicated.

Honestly anyone who doesn't see it by now is simply completely deluded.

Having only just started reading it and having heard the theory beforehand, it really does seem to be heading that way. Although at this point I'm more interested in who is not some part of the conspiracy in any way, seems like only Battler is left in the dark.

Shkannon can't solve who gave the first letter to Maria.
-Kanon was with Battler in that moment.
-Jessitrice was with Battler too, so no Jessitrice in that moment.
-It can't be another character because Maria knows is not Beato unless she knows Kumawasa was the previous Beatrice

>>4071211
Kanon wasn't with Battler when Beatrice gave the first letter to Maria.
Actually he is the one who came to the house to ask where Maria is.

>>4071211
Are you a baka? Kanon gave it to Maria while he was running there. Or alternatively, Maria didn't receive the letter when she claimed. She just produced at a certain point. In episodes 1 and 2, a letter, the same letter appears in a closed room with Maria in it at 10:00pm. If that isn't evidence a letter can be given beforehand and instructed to be "found" at a certain point I don't know what is.

>>4071211
>It can't be another character because Maria knows is not Beato
You remember what Eva had to do to get Maria to accept her as Beatrice? Say "I'm Beatrice"

I bet Nanjo could even pull off that shit.

>>4071085
please cease and desist with your spamming and harassing on our board www.anoptalk.com except with n instead of p thanks in advance have a nice day many hugs from tiny loli who just wants her board clean and nice <3

Problem, Anonymooooous?

Is there something about this theory you don't like? Is there something about this truth that would make you break down and cry? Don't you want to accept that you've finally reached the answer?

ahaha.wav

>>4071251
You don't even exist.

Posting it in every ShKanontrice threads.

Sayo is Shannon true name.
Romanized, it's written Syayo.

Joshua is Kanon's tue name.
His name can also be read Yoshiya, or romanized Yosiya.

Without love it can't be seen.
Ai is love in japanese, ai = "i"

Syayo + "i" = Yosiya.

FUCKING R07 IS A GENIUS.

>>4071088
please cease and desist with your spamming and harassing on our board www.anoptalk.com except with n instead of p thanks in advance have a nice day many hugs from tiny loli who just wants her board clean and nice <3

>>4071306
>Romanized, it's written Syayo.
wat. Stopped reading there.

>>4071314
しゃよ
Read her TIP.

>>4071087
please cease and desist with your spamming and harassing on our board www.anoptalk.com except with n instead of p thanks in advance have a nice day many hugs from tiny loli who just wants her board clean and nice <3

>>4071324
No, her tip says しゃのん. You know, "Shannon." Because that's her servant name. That doesn't mean "Sayo" is read しゃよ. Next you'll be telling me Kanon's real name is Kanuya.

>>4071343
TIP =/= Character Screen

>>4071355
Where else is there a "TIP"? Because there's no extra TIP written about Shannon.

further proof for shkannon theory:
ep1: kanon was not discovered with a stake inside his chest
ep2: shannon was not discovered with a stake inside her forehead
ep6: shannon was not discovered with a stake inside her
so far, everyone else has been discovered stabbed somewhere in their body at some point. it's safe to say that anyone who has been stabbed is actually dead. even if kanon/shannon were the ones dead, the one who kills them does not follow the epitaph themself.

>>4071553
>ep2: shannon was not discovered with a stake inside her forehead
She was though. Battler even pulls it out of her.

I want to believe Shanontrice but not Shkannon.

>>4071562
if you reread that scene, nothing of the sort happens. she was discovered lying in a pool of blood with the stake next to her. battler checks and sees that she was indeed stabbed in the head, but the stake might not have been the murder weapon. it could've been something lying around like a pen.

>>4071306
There is a simpler way to do this.
Sayo = しゃよ= よしゃ=よしや= Yoshiya

>>4071562
She had the wound in her forehead, but the stake wasn't in it. Shkannon does the staking.

That anon's point stands. Shkannon is never found with a stake in his/her body.

The reason there's no stake planted in her forehead is because Shkannon is dead.

ok, has anyone thought, I mean that even if Shkanon is true, maybe THEY'RE NOT THE CULPRITS and it's just a very well execetued red-herring
They have killed, but they're not in the culprit team and just kill poeple who think that are killers?
It's just too obvious that with Shkanon you can solve everything, but it just doesn't fit them to be the culprits, maybe they kill random people,but they're not the culprit nor in the culprit team

>>4071089
Because you are baka.

>>4071583
This stake evidence would say otherwise. Shkannon is the one killing according to the epitaph. The epitaph is Shkannon(trice)'s test to see which of the cousins is deserving of his/her love.

>>4071576
yeah, in the animehe lifts up her head and the stake falls out, so it wasn't drived into her head, more like it was just placed there.

>>4071089
If no one can explain "who, why and how" of all murders without X, it's the evidence that the answer is X.

Explain them with your theory.

>>4071169
What you should do is stating your own theory, not denying others' theories.
You mean "I have no theory but dislike your theory" or such?

>>4071593
This.

You can start with episode 6's closed room.

>>4071626
Erm, everyone still lived.
Erika killed them all.

>>4071649
What? I don't think you understand what the closed room is. Yes, everyone still lived. Erika killed them all. And that's exactly why this closed room exists.

Your "hrm" sounds like you're disregarding this, but it is the single most undeniable argument for Shkannon. Nobody has solved the closed room without Shkannon.

>>4071656
>And that's exactly why this closed room exists.
Everyone walked into their respective room, closed the chain, pretended to be dead, were discovered and afterwards killed by Erika.
That's how the "closed room" can easily be opened.

>>4071669
Honestly now. Stop talking, you haven't read episode 6. You don't understand what closed room I'm referring to.

Shkannon has been such a popular theory lately because of episode 6, why try to deny it when you haven't even read it?

>>4071673
You mean Battler's room?
Well, it's one way to make Kanon disappear from the "other" room.
It would also mean, that Erika dug her own grave with asking "everyone else" to be in the cousins room.

Why don't gaijins' theories have details?
If you have a correct theory, you can read out all stories, adding the answers.

Someone pretending to be two people and pulling it off for years so the family members or the visitors don't notice is as realistic as a little girl having enough time and strength to dig a bunch of huge holes in a forest and catching a government army with it.

>>4071685
So are you going to try and solve the room without Shkannon or not?

>why try to deny it when you haven't even read it?

Because all the murders were caused by witches, of course. Honestly, when will you people give up your fanciful delusions about secret murderers and bizzare conspiracies?

>>4071709

I'll drop the red text:

Only Kanon and Erika entered the room
Only Battler left the room
Krauss, Jessica, Kanon, Genji, Gohda, Rudolf couldn't move because of tape.

George, Shanon, Hideyoshi, Nanjo, Kumasawa could jump through the window

Everyone else was dead

The island has 17 people, counting Erika

Kanon was not in the room after Battler left

Erika did not close the room after Battler left

Kanon helped Battler.

>>4071712
And of course, it was a closed room with tapes.

Fuck, I haven't read ep6.
Can someone describe the situation of this closed room?
I'm curious.

>>4071712
but erika then sealed the room with tape, so kanon couldn't exit
How did Kanon get out then

>>4071689
> family members
Why does she have to trick family members?
> visitors
Visitors have few chances to meet young servants.

You seem not to think carefully.
Gaijins' thoughts tend to stop at the first step of this theory, because they have borrowed only the part of conclusion from Japanese forums.

After episode 6 i really want to see more of Kinzo and Kanon together. ;_;

>>4071723
Window in Shannon's room wasn't confirmed to be sealed in red. It's only solvable if Kanon is one of the people in that room. ie, Shkannon.

>>4071716
Battler is found lying in bed. (Supposedly dead.)
Erika doesn't kill him, but tapes the room.
No one could enter or leave the room until she reopens and immediately seals it off again with the door chain.
Battler has disappeared from the bed.
-> Battler isn't anywhere in the room.
Erika checks the bath and is distracted for a second.
After the distraction Battler is neither in the bath nor in the room.
The chain is still in place.

>>4071725
Fuck you nip.

>>4071089
lol u fag, that gurl in your intro pic looks like a midget.

Kinzo created the orphanage so he could hide his loved daughter there after Natsuhi tried to kill her, and Rosa "killed" Beato.

>>4071734
someone was in the bath room

>>4071754
>and Rosa "killed" Beato.
That reminds me, it seems like Beato and the man from 19 years ago both fell of a cliff during the same year. You know, 19 years ago. What's with that?

>>4071756
also when Hidetoshi was the bathroom he met the culprit face to face.

>>4071756
Nope. Erika is "distracted" because she went into the bathroom. She wasn't distracted away from actually checking the bathroom. She went into the bathroom, then Kanon switched with Battler in the main room.

>>4071760
...and Beato's age is also 19 years iirc.

>>4071756
The bathroom was included in the red text as being part of the room.

Anyone who tries to deny Shkannon should just solve this room with their first, otherwise they have no right to speak. It's criticizing someone else's idea without presenting your own. There's literally no other explanation that's been given so far. Denying Shkannon at this point renders that room impossible.

>>4071725
So the family members know about this situation? And Jessica is ok with this(Even wishes to date Kanon) and doesn't tell George? Why won't Natsuhi and Krauss fire them from the job(since it is probably very bothersome to keep someone with two/three personalities around) and tell the other family members something about Kinzo having a reason to do it. When it is faked as if one of them is dead and the other is not then should the ones who know about this situation conclude something about the murderer from that? And if they do figure something out in the previously described situation then why don't they tell anyone else?

I am very confused about this theory, it seems very logical in the mystery way but the interaction with other people is the difficult part, in my opinion.

>>4071783
>So the family members know about this situation? And Jessica is ok with this(Even wishes to date Kanon) and doesn't tell George? Why won't Natsuhi and Krauss fire them from the job(since it is probably very bothersome to keep someone with two/three personalities around) and tell the other family members something about Kinzo having a reason to do it. When it is faked as if one of them is dead and the other is not then should the ones who know about this situation conclude something about the murderer from that? And if they do figure something out in the previously described situation then why don't they tell anyone else?
All the same reason none of Krauss's family admit Kinzo is dead once the murders start, their stupid pride.

Firing Shkannon = risking Kinzo's death being made public.

>>4071783
Probably only Natsuhi, Krauss, Genji, Nanjo and Kumasawa know about this.

>>4071799
There's no way Jessica doesn't know. She's just a yandere lesbian so she's fine with it.

Hint that she's a lesbian: what a massive tomboy she is.

Now Jessica x Shannon doujins where?

>>4071804
I want to believe.

Anyone has that long Beatrice text translated ?
I remenber seeing something fishy there.

>>4071778
Nobody cares about the stupid room. When EP6 is translated, you can whine about it again.

>>4071811
...Beatrice.
Listen carefully.
I will turn over my love for Battler to you.
Become the woman Battler desires.

I will give you the blonde hair he desires.
I will give you the blue eyes he desires.
I will give you the new personality he desires.
And... In place of me, love him.
And if possible, be loved by him.

I can no longer love him.
The feelings I could not obtain...the feelings I could not bear...please obtain them.

From this day forward, you are no longer the phantom of Rokkenjima who only plays tricks.
From this day forward, you are the ruler of Rokkenjima, and the one who waits for him to return until he fulfills his promise.

From this day forward, you will inherit that in my place.
Thus, from this day forward, you are no longer me.

I will push all of my suffering on to you... Please forgive me for being the only one to become happy.

From this day forward, you have the qualifications to detest everything.
You are the Golden Witch, Beatrice.

And someday.
Destroy everything, revive everything.
...Bless all lovers.

At that time.
...For both you and I to find happiness together...I will be wishing for from the bottom of my heart.

From this day on, you are not me.
From this day on, I am not you.
We will divide one soul, and share.
That naturally won't fill up one soul, but. (? not 100% sure about this line)
Surely it will allow (us/you/me? no subject defined) to see more dreams than a person.
May we be blessed...
My cute Beatrice...

>>4071817
>Nobody cares about the stupid room. When EP6 is translated, you can whine about it again.
Denial.

>>4071734
Windows in that room are like any other windows in the mansion, right?
Why is Kanon the only person who can go help Battler?

>>4071833
Because it was stated in red that Kanon was the one who did it.

>>4071821
Thanks

>We will divide one soul, and share.
Yeah this was it......
according to Shkannontrice there was already 3 personalities in one body, wnich would mean 3 souls.
Also if this was lolitrice it couldnt work either because of obvious reasons.

Don't think that simple sentence can explain everything.
Ryuukishi has said the answer is so complicated.
For example, "Shannon=Kanon" is only a start point. Why does Shannon act Kanon? When did it start? How does it relate to the murders?
Thoughts about them ARE theories. Repeating "X=Y" or denying it aren't theories.

>>4071838
Let me ask then, why was it impossible for other people to help Battler and what does this have to do with Shkanon?

>>4071844
Shannon = Kanon is a theory. It's something many fans believe that is yet to be proven. It may be a very simplistic and unelaborate theory when all they say is that, but it's still a theory.

How does Jessica have blond hair if she is Japanese

Can anyone confirm if Gohda picked the flowers to the dinner directly or he sent Kanon for it?

>>4071848
>why was it impossible for other people to help Battler
Because it was stated in red that Kanon was the one to do it.
>>4071848
>and what does this have to do with Shkanon?
Because Kanon should have been in a room that was completely sealed. Shannon was in the adjacent room, which could be escaped through the window. Anyone in that room could have saved Battler, except for the fact that it was Kanon who did it, but supposedly, Kanon wasn't in that room. However, he must have been, that's the only room the rescuer could have come from. The "victims" of the first twilight couldn't do the rescuing, because Erika killed them. The only five who could were George, Shanon, Hideyoshi, Nanjo and Kumasawa, yet it was Kanon who did it. Therefore, Kanon is one of those 5 people. Take your pick.

There's also the fact that although Kanon saved Battler, Erika couldn't figure out how he escaped Battler's room, after rescuing him. A simple explanation is that Kanon was hiding and was considered Shannon instead for various pieces of red text, so Kanon could seemingly not be in the room, even though he never left.

>but supposedly, Kanon wasn't in that room
Supposedly? So wasn't this confirmed by red?

>>4071849
> believe
It is not a proper approach to a mystery.

>>4071884
That's the best part.
George, Shanon, Hideyoshi, Nanjo and Kumasawa were in one room, in red.
The victims of the first twilight were dead because Erika killed them, in red.
"Everyone else" was in the adjacent room, in red. (This is why Kanon should have supposedly been there)
The room "everyone else" was in was sealed including the window and therefore the rescuer couldn't have come from there.
The room with George, Shanon, Hideyoshi, Nanjo and Kumasawa did not have its window sealed, so the rescuer could have come from there, yet, the red says the rescuer was Kanon.

Everyone besides Battler already knew about Shannon's condition thats the only explanation i can come up with, and even that poses a problem.

>>4071889
They believe because of evidence? What, do you want everyone to remain agnostics and never ever claim they believe one thing happened one way or another?

If they don't "believe" it's one way, then they would have to KNOW it was one way. The only way to know is to have irrefutable proof, but there is no irreffutable proof of the theory, or any theory. That's what makes it a theory.

>>4071900
It sure looks like Shkanon is the only answer... but still, I won't stop thinking, even if it's useless.

>>4071884
>George, Shanon, Hideyoshi, Nanjo and Kumasawa

Kumasawa confirmed as Kanon.

>>4071908
>Everyone besides Battler
Why? Explain why Kyrie, Rudolf, Eva, Hideyoshi, Nanjo and Rosa had to know.

Even some of the servants might not have to know, you don't know how often they work on the island. Krauss, Natsuhi, Genji, Kumasawa and Jessica probably all know. Why does anyone else have to?

>>4071900
Everyone means everyone no exceptions no semantics is possible.
If we say that someone's presence/spirit stayed there in the room that would already invoke supernatural crap.

>>4071900
There's no way to go from one room to another right?
And it's impossible to replace the tape,right?

>>4071930
Nobody said someone's spirit stayed in the room. The best part is "everyone else." If it was just confirmed in red that Kanon was in that room instead, the theory would break down, because Shannon and Kanon can't be in two places at once. Because it's "everyone else", it can work. "Everyone else" doesn't include Kanon because Kanon = Shannon.

>>4071913
just take them as they're not the culprits, but instead, when they realize waht's happening, they try to stop it
more interesting since by that there are some mysteries left

>>4071932
Just like in episode 5, yes.

If anyone hasn't noticed it, the next DVD cover has been announced.

http://umineko.tv/web/main/collection/dvd04.html

Next cover would be Maria and Rosa, the gold edition cover however, is Asmo & Satan with pillow cover as the goodies stuff.

Fortune Card included:

The Empress: Natsuhi and Eva

>>4071942
>just take them as they're not the culprits, but instead, when they realize waht's happening, they try to stop it
This also makes sense with the episode 6 closed room. After all, Erika killed the people who were pretending to be dead (probably for just a prank on her, but who knows), and Battler might have been next if she found him in that room. Shkannon saved him.

>>4071938
Everyone else implies everyone not mentioned before, its simple.

>>4071943
And I assume Kanon did not do something as extreme as breaking a wall to exit the room without breaking the tape seal, right?

>>4071964
So you're trying to say "everyone else" includes Kanon? That might work, except for the fact that it can't include him, otherwise he wouldn't be able to save Battler. Another interesting thing to point out is that in one of the scenes, Kanon "dies" in that room, but then his corpse simply disappears, apparently right before the eyes of everyone in that room. I wonder why?

>>4071963
that's what I mean, have you ever seen Shanon and Kanon taking an active part. NO, they just try to stop the whole thing when they relaise the servants are in too, but they usually lose/are wrong (like Natsuhi in ep1, it's possible kanon thought she was the actual mastermind and killed her to protect everybody)

>>4071970
It was confirmed in red that room couldn't be escaped from without breaking the tape, so I suppose so.

>>4071978
Yep, unless "everyone else" is a inaccurate translation this is pretty much impossible.

What if the "Kanon saved Battler" is and indirect truth?
Like for example, let's say somehow Kanon managed to contact Shannon and tell her about Battler's situation. Even in this case, Kanon still "saved" Battler.

Yeah, it's still a disappointment and contrived.

>>4072009
Well, Shannon or anyone else in that room.

>>4071086
please cease and desist with your spamming and harassing on our board www.anoptalk.com except with n instead of p thanks in advance have a nice day many hugs from tiny loli who just wants her board clean and nice <3

>>4072009
Maybe that could work. I think I'll go find all the red about the room and just translate it all.

- In the guesthouse, Erika goes to her room. I think she's trying to listen in on the children's room. Dlanor comes and says the GM's decision to not let her hear (?).
- She's toying with the packaging tape she got from Kumazawa. She's planning to use this to seal the rooms, just like Ep5. However she and Dlanor notice the tape is rather weak and could fall of easily, which makes possibly useless as a seal. Probably GM Battler's work, Erika thinks, and he probably did it with all the tape in the island.

Solving episode 1 with the red text of episodes 1-4 + KShannontrice + Battler as detective

>#Knox 7 - detective is not the murderer
>Genji, Nanjo and Kumasawa did not commit murders
>Krauss confirmed as dead in the first twilight, Battler saw his corpse
>Kinzo is dead

Obviously i am ruling out Maria too.

We have:
George
Jessica
Rudolf
Kyrie
Hideyoshi
Eva
Natsuhi
Kanon
Shannon
Rosa
Gohda

> second twilight, Eva and Hideyoshi were really killed.

George
Jessica
Rosa
Rudolf
Kyrie
Gohda
Natsuhi
Kanon
Shannon

Natsuhi, George and Jessica were the whole time together with Battler, so we can rule them out, too.

Rosa
Rudolf
Kyrie
Gohda
Shannon
Kanon

Kanon's death is the solution here. No red text confirmed his death, and even the undeads have an alibi. If we take that Nanjo is hiding Shannon's death as well as Kanon's, we reach the conclusion that both are the culprits.

The letter: Nanjo, and Kumasawa were being paid to be quiet. But Genji was doing that pretty much because he thought that was Kinzo's will to detonate the island. As he consider himself being furniture.

Maria's rose: Gohda cooked it. Maybe Kanon picked the flowers for him.

Eva's locked room: Genji found the locked room, Kanon and Kumasawa gone to open it. It was never a closed room.

Rokkenjima exploded at midnight.
Taking the red text that all the unindentified corpses have their identity confirmed, we can take that there are no fake bodies.
And sorry for the weak evidence, but looking at the anime faces, i don't think they could fake their deaths like that.
Also, Knox #1. The culprit must be introduced properly as a character at the beginning. Manon, Renon and Maria's father did not even have any lines, so we can't use them.
Heck, we can solve episode 1 even without Kanon=Shannon, if we assume they were doing that together.

>>4072043
Yes, but later Erika acts all deredere to Battler and he feels sympathy for her and gives her proper tape for 3 rooms. Then she reveals she was just acting and cackles behind his back. The three rooms she seals are the two rooms with everyone alive in them, and the room Battler "died" in. She uses this to try and force a logical impossibility on Battler's gameboard and thus winning, but it's solved somehow with Kanon.

>>4072009
>>4072014
Fuck, I've just realized this is impossible, silly me.
After all, "Kanon entered that room". Fuck this shit.

>>4072047
"Regarding unidentified corpses, all of their identities are guaranteed" in red.
So it's proven that Rudolf, Kyrie Rosa and Gohda's bodies aren't fake.

>>4072071
Kanon entered the room because he was a servant, at some point way before this happened?

>>4072071
Kannon entered that room more than once he is a butler after all

>>4072076
The hole here is that they could not to be corpses, still being alive. And that was i why used the anime faces as excuse to rule them out.

>>4072047
you can solving without Kanon and Shanon being the culprits. Kanon killed genji, kumasawa and Nanjo becuase they were the culprits, then he killed Natsuhi because he thought she was the culprit.
the only problem is the second twilight, but if you think that Genji entered and they were already dead (poison), he just staked them, hide under the bed, waited till Kanon entered the bathroom and with Kumasawa's help escaped, then he went to the parlor to tell everybody.

>>4072080
But then we have to assume that, since the beginning of the game, only three people (Battler, Erika and Kanon) entered the room.
So the only person who could have directly helped Battler is... Kanon or a person who shares those names.

>>4072094
also replaced the chain, forgot that, it isn't even difficult
Kanon just convinced Nanjo and Jessica, but then he discovered Nanjo was also part of the culprits, then he killed him too

>>4072098
Why wouldnt Erika answer Kannon's call to help Battler ? oh wait she did

>>4072098
To put it another way, this theory can only work if George, Shanon, Hideyoshi, Nanjo and/or Kumasawa have different multiple names, and one of those names must be Battler, Erika or Kanon.

This is even worse than Shkanon.

>>4072120
Kumasawa's name has always sound fake, it even uses katakanas

>>4072120
Then again, Erika herself could have helped Battler to escape, but why the fuck would she do that?

>>4072127
tsun-dere-dere~

>>4072127
It was stated in red that she didn't anyway.

>>4072137
yeah she just opened the door
The actual hero was Kannon see: >>4072009

>>4072147
But if I remember correctly, the red for Erika wasn't "Erika wasn't the one to save Battler" it was something clearer like "Erika did not let Battler leave the room"

Well, fuck it, even if it's extremely ridiculous, we can explain it without Shkanon:
-Kanon indirectly saved Battler by contacting the people in the other room and telling them about Battler's situation.
-Even though "Kanon entered the room" he could have entered before this case started, doing his duties as a servant, but then we have to assume that from the very beginning of the game, Battler, Erika and Kanon were the only people who entered that room.
-We're trying to disprove that Kanon didn't directly save Battler so no, it was stated that Erika didn't save Battler and of course Battler couldn't save himself.
-As long as George, Shanon, Hideyoshi, Nanjo and/or Kumasawa posses the alternate name Battler, Erika, or Kanon, this works without contradictions.

Is there any red truth in the episode that can break this?

>>4072094
>Genji, Kumasawa, and Nanjo are not murderers

Therefore, they never killed anyone.

Also, remember the letter to Natsuhi?
"I challenge you to a duel to settle which one of us is the most appropriate heir of the Ushiromiya's name."

Add Kanon's first mumble after Battler helped him and it pretty much explains the why-done-it of the murderer. She was jealous for being sent to an orphanage instead of becoming one of the Ushiromiyas. She considered Natsuhi as the most loyal person to the Ushiromiya's name and challenged her directly to a duel instead of murdering her cowardly like she did with everyone else.

>Kanon indirectly saved Battler by contacting the people in the other room and telling them about Battler's situation.

doesn't explain how the door was locked after Battler left.

>-Even though "Kanon entered the room" he could have entered before this case started, doing his duties as a servant, but then we have to assume that from the very beginning of the game, Battler, Erika and Kanon were the only people who entered that room.

The time was specified.

>As long as George, Shanon, Hideyoshi, Nanjo and/or Kumasawa posses the alternate name Battler, Erika, or Kanon, this works without contradictions.

This can't be disproved. Maybe Knox, but we could use it for KShannon too, for some extent.

>>4072156
Of course she wouldn't leave him escape!
She just closed the door after he had already escaped.

>>4072183
No, because Erika sealed the room immediately after entering and had unsealed it immediately before entering. If Erika did it, then Battler would have to undo the seal, then Erika would have to reseal it for him. But the seal was never broken after she re-sealed it after entering.

>>4072178
>doesn't explain how the door was locked after Battler left.
Kanon indirectly saved Battler, someone in the other room directly saved Battler.
>The time was specified.
Well, fuck, then the only way the theory works is that a person other than Shannon has the alternate name "Kanon". And that's still ridiculous.

Going through the episode right now and listing all the red for the room in both Japanese and ATLAS translation. It's pretty clear right now, but someone could translate it better regardless. Probably won't be done for a long time though, some of the red is all over the place, have to look for it.

>>4072198
Yeah, this is pretty much why everyone is going KShannon after episode 6, this is the least annoying theory. Also, they spent half of the episode discussing how only one of Kanon/Shannon/new Beato could have his/her love granted.

Wait, if George, Shanon, Hideyoshi, Nanjo and Kumasawa could escape from that room, doesn't that mean any of them could go to the room where Kanon is, and manipulate the tape seal so Kanon can go out without breaking it?

>>4072209
Can't manipulate Erika's tape like that.

>>4072198
>Well, fuck, then the only way the theory works is that a person other than Shannon has the alternate name "Kanon". And that's still ridiculous.

The red truth from episode 4:

># The only one who can claim Kanon's name is the person himself!
># A different person cannot claim his name!

>>4072215
Stated by red?

>>4072209
stated in red that the seal was never broken at the another room.

>>4072218
Stated in even episode 5, isn't it?

the "everyone else" makes me rage, it makes it impossible even for Shkannon to break

>>4072204
but still doesn't mean they're the actual culprits

さぁて、……封印は破られているか、否か。 - Now,...... Has the seal been broken?, Is the not?
密室は維持されているか、……否か…！」 - Is the Closed Room maintained?,...... Is the not...?!"
RED - 「客室の完全な封印を確認しマシタ。"A complete seal of the guest room is confirmed and [mashita].
RED - ヱリカ卿が戦人の存在を確認して以降、この密室は維持されていマス。」 - After the Erika lord confirms Battler's existence, The This Closed Room is maintained and is a mass. "
RED - (Lambda) - ジャッジメントの公平を誓うわ。 - Impartial of the judgment is sworn. (this is in regards to judging the logic error)
RED - (Battler) - ……………ベッドの上に、右代宮戦人は、いない。」 - ............... To the bed above, Ushiromiya Battler, It is not. "
RED - (Battler) - 「ノックス第３条。 秘密の通路の存在を禁ず。 - "Knox Article 3. The existence of a secret passage is prohibited."
RED - (Beato) - 「……客室内に、ヱリカさんに発見不能な隠れ場所は、存在しません。」 - "...... In the guest room, The hiding place that the Erika -san cannot discover, It doesn't exist. "
RED - (Dlanor) - 例外一ヶ所を除き、ベッドルームに誰の姿もありマセン。」 - The exception one place is excluded, Madsen ..it is... every appearance in the bedroom"
RED - (Dlanor) - バスルームに誰の姿もありマセン。」 - Madsen ..it is... every appearance in the bathroom"
RED - (Erika) - これで私たちは、例外一ヶ所を除いて、客室に戦人が存在しないことを確認
しました。」 - We : in this, Excluding the exception one place, Battler confirmed the existence doesn't do thing to the guest room. "

So far.

>>4072216
THE ONLY ONE WHO CAN USE THE NAME ZERO IS ZERO HIMSELF.

See what she did there?

>>4072220
Not broken.
Someone removed it from the other side, let Kanon come out, and then put it again on the same place.

Does anyone still have that link to that .rar of the tl'd rifyu comics?

>>4072221
Yeah, but there are a lot of different things between Ep5 Erika and Ep6 Erika.
I think even she herself complained about the tape in Ep6.

>>4072230
it does mean that someone broke the seal and put it back, so yes, the seal was broken by that theory.

>>4072230
you can't do it, it has super sticking powers and inmediately breaks

>>4072238
See >>4072043
and >>4072059
Battler ruins the tape on the island, but Erika tricks him into letting her use good tape for 3 rooms by acting deredere. That's the tape she uses here.

>>4072243
That's just an interpretation, right?
>>4072247
Confirmed by red?

Even if the tape for Kanon's room could be broken, it doesn't explain how Kanon later escaped from Battler's closed room after saving him.

>>4072264
Erika wouldn't let Battler escape.
But it was never said something about letting other people escape. Well, I think so.

>>4072256
said by Erika in ep5, the seals break as soon as someone tries to force them, that's why they're so sure and had to replace them everytime someone did something to them

>>4072273
Yes, but it was said in red Kanon didn't leave the room after Erika entered.

This is an extremely complicated problem.
Some of you who haven't finished EP6 shouldn't join in this discussion.

>>4072243
From a detective point of view, a tape seal is only broken if the tape itself is broken/not where it should have been.

Goddamn closed room...
I feel like BAWWWing like Battler.

>>4072302
he had to prepare a tough closed room after all

>>4072198
Wait... This could work the other way around.
We know that "only Kanon can claim the name Kanon" but what if he himself has multiple different names?
It doesn't have to be an alternate name.
Let's say Kanon's real surname is "Kumasawa". The closed room can be explained without Shkanon.

Why would Battler use Beatrice as an actual presence for the final riddle ? that doesn't make sense

Didn't Lambdadelta say she would put confusing and misleading stuff out in an attempt to throw Battler off?

>>4072357
she's Lambda, the most neutral character in umineko, just throws the same amount of hints

The part where Lambda confirms Battler's hand is effective is the best. Especially with engage_of_marionette

>>4072346
Is there any red text in ep6 which can disprove this?

>>4072385
Probably not, but it's not any better than Shkannon.

>>4072391
I just don't like easy answers.
I just wanted to prove that Shkanon is not even nearly confirmed.

>>4072385
No, but that sounds still worse than KShannon.

>>4072401
Knox #10.

>>4072401
even if it's confirmed, that s/he is the culprit it's not necessary, just that peopel started to say that with it you could solve them, but you can solve them without them being the real culprits

Knox's 8th. It is forbidden for the case to be resolved with clues that are not PRESENTED!!

>>4072420
Kanon&Shannon acting together is the only solution for episode 1, if we discard the retarded option that Rudolf and Kyrie were walking around with their eyes peeled off.

So how does kanon open the door to the storeroom with shannon's corpse in ep1? Is there an extra body or something?

>>4072431

EP1 is solvable with just Kanon, bro

>>4072438
also
>regarding undentified bodies, their identities are garanteed.

>>4072440
He would still be the real culprit, tough.
And Kinzo killing them all with his bomb.

So, is there still some mysteries that are still unexplainable in Umineko?

>>4072462
No, that episode 6 room is the closest.

>>4072442

Shannon's body is not unidentified, it retains half a face.

THAT BATTLER NEVER GOT TO LOOK AT dun dun DUNNNN

RED - (Erika) ……あの時、私は、すぐに扉を閉め、チェーンロックを掛け直し、この部屋
を封じました。」 - ...... That time, I, The door is closed at once, It tries to

multiply the chain lock, The This room was sealed off. "
BLUE - (Battler) 事件発覚時に、郷田がチェーンを切断したはずだ。 チェーンロックが機能しない以上、チェーンロックでの封印は不可能だ。」
- When event comes to light, The Toshiro should

have cut the chain. More than to which chain lock doesn't function, The seal with the chain lock is impossible. "
RED - (Bern) ヱリカは、チェーンロックを修復したのよ。 - Erika, The restoration did of the chain lock.
RED - (Lambda) ………ヱリカはね、そのガムテープで、切断されたチェーンの切断面両端を
繋いで“封印”したの。 つまり、封印によってチェーンを修復し、それによってこの部屋を内側から
再び密室にしたってわけね。」 - .........

Erika : right ?, With the that packing tape, It connects and "Seal" did of both ends of the cutting side of the cut chain. In

a word, The chain is restored by the seal, As a result, divide the This room even if you do the Closed Room again from in and

right ?. "
RED - (Lambda) ガムテープの使用制限は回数じゃなかったでしょ？ 部屋の数よ。 ……３部屋までという、場所の制限だけ。 ……ヱリカはその１部屋にこの客室を選んでるわ。 - Are usage restrictions of the

packing tape don't you agrees that are not the frequencies? Number of rooms. ...... It is said three room until, Only the restriction of the place. ...... Erika is choosing the This guest room to one that room.

>>4072431
I mean CULPRIT, not killer. let's say Jessica (who is probably not) was the ringleader and Genji Kumasawa and nanjo as the main
1st twilight: everyone poisoned by Gohda with rosa's tea (I didn't like that tea and would be perfect for the ep2 1st), just takes 2-3 people to move it, Rosa died accidentally, that's why there's blood, but she was just being used by the real mastermind
2nd: eva and Hideyoshi weere poisoned by some food they surely got by the hands of any of the servants (prepared again by Gohda, so they're not the actual murderers) without including Shkanon, then genji cut the chain, entered the room, staked them and replaced the chain and while Kanon was in the bathroom, Genji escaped thanks to the blank point position kanon was in (eps 5-6 help you)
5th: kanon didn't die but knew hat Kumasawa and Genji were culprits and thought Natsuhi was the mastermind, asked Nanjo for help to cover him, Jessica agreed
6-8: Kanon then preceeded to kill them since they were the culprits and also killed Nanjo since he was a culprit too, told Maria that beatrice had said X so she could close the door
9th-Kanon killed Natsuhi, who he thought was the mastermind
B0MB

Contrived, but doesn't violate any red text I know and leaves Kanon as the savior cheated by Jessica

>>4072462
Number on the door in episode 3.

BLUE - (Erika) - あなたはこの部屋から消失などしていません。 姿を隠し、あたかも密室から消え去ったかのように錯覚させただけです。 隠れた場所は、……私がまだ、調べていない、“例外一ヶ所”。」 - You have not disappeared from this room. The secret of the appearance, It only mistook it like vanishing from the Closed Room. The hidden place,...... I : not yet, It doesn't examine it, "Exception one place""
BLUE - (Erika) - 「その“例外一ヶ所”とは、………“ここ”。 ……入口脇の、ウォークインクローゼットッ！！」 - ", saying that the that "Exception one place",......... "Here" ...... Entrance side, [Uo;-kuinkuro-zetto].!"
BLUE - (Dlanor) - 「ここしか隠れる場所はありマセン。 あなたは今、この中に隠れているのデス。」 - "Madsen ..it is... the place where only here is hidden. You are now, [Desu] in the This ..hiding... "
BLUE - (Battler) 戦人はクローゼットに隠れている”、への、……俺の一手だ。 - "Battler is hiding himself in the closet. "
RED - (Battler) 「右代宮戦人は、客室内に存在しない。 - "Ushiromiya Battler, The existence doesn't do in the guest room.

BLUE - (Erika) - あなたはこの部屋から消失などしていません。 姿を隠し、あたかも密室から消え去ったかのように錯覚させただけです。 隠れた場所は、……私がまだ、調べていない、“例外一ヶ所”。」 - You have not disappeared from this room. The secret of the appearance, It only mistook it like vanishing from the Closed Room. The hidden place,...... I : not yet, It doesn't examine it, "Exception one place""
BLUE - (Erika) - 「その“例外一ヶ所”とは、………“ここ”。 ……入口脇の、ウォークインクローゼットッ！！」 - ", saying that the that "Exception one place",......... "Here" ...... Entrance side, [Uo;-kuinkuro-zetto].!"
BLUE - (Dlanor) - 「ここしか隠れる場所はありマセン。 あなたは今、この中に隠れているのデス。」 - "Madsen ..it is... the place where only here is hidden. You are now, [Desu] in the This ..hiding... "
BLUE - (Battler) 戦人はクローゼットに隠れている”、への、……俺の一手だ。 - "Battler is hiding himself in the closet. "
RED - (Battler) 「右代宮戦人は、客室内に存在しない。 - "Ushiromiya Battler, The existence doesn't do in the guest room.
RED - (Erika) ……あの時、私は、すぐに扉を閉め、チェーンロックを掛け直し、この部屋
を封じました。」 - ...... That time, I, The door is closed at once, It tries to multiply the chain lock, The This room was sealed off. "

>>4072477
Code to stop the bomb given from Beatrice to Eva of course.

>>4072469
But Kannon was there to.
ALIVE

RED - (Erika) ……あの時、私は、すぐに扉を閉め、チェーンロックを掛け直し、この部屋
を封じました。」 - ...... That time, I, The door is closed at once, It tries to multiply the chain lock, The This room was sealed off. "
BLUE - (Battler) 事件発覚時に、郷田がチェーンを切断したはずだ。 チェーンロックが機能しない以上、チェーンロックでの封印は不可能だ。」
- When event comes to light, The Toshiro should have cut the chain. More than to which chain lock doesn't function, The seal with the chain lock is impossible. "
RED - (Bern) ヱリカは、チェーンロックを修復したのよ。 - Erika, The restoration did of the chain lock.
RED - (Lambda) ………ヱリカはね、そのガムテープで、切断されたチェーンの切断面両端を
繋いで“封印”したの。 つまり、封印によってチェーンを修復し、それによってこの部屋を内側から
再び密室にしたってわけね。」 - ......... Erika : right ?, With the that packing tape, It connects and "Seal" did of both ends of the cutting side of the cut chain. In a word, The chain is restored by the seal, As a result, divide the This room even if you do the Closed Room again from in and right ?. "
RED - (Lambda) ガムテープの使用制限は回数じゃなかったでしょ？ 部屋の数よ。 ……３部屋までという、場所の制限だけ。 ……ヱリカはその１部屋にこの客室を選んでるわ。 - Are usage restrictions of the packing tape don't you agrees that are not the frequencies? Number of rooms. ...... It is said three room until, Only the restriction of the place. ...... Erika is choosing the This guest room to one that room.

RED - (Lambda) だからヱリカは、この部屋に何ヶ所でも、そして何度でも、封印する権利を
持つッ。」 - Therefore, Erika :, Places how many to the This room, And, degrees how many, [] with right to seal. "
RED - (Erika) 遡り手により、ガムテープの封印によって、チェーンロックが修復されて、
元の機能に復帰していることを宣言します。 そして、それにより、私は入室と同時に施錠を行ない、この客室を内側より
再び密室としました。」 - By the going back person, By sealing the packing tape, The chain lock is restored, The thing that has returned to former function is declared. And, As a result, I lock at the same time as entering a room, The This guest room was assumed to be a Closed Room from the inside again. "
(Erika) Repeat it! “今、このチェーンロックは、施錠を維持している”。」 - ..".. now, The This chain lock, "..maintenance of lock.."
RED - (Battler) チェーンロックは施錠を、維持している。」 - The chain lock : the lock, It maintains it. "
RED - (Dlanor) 「……右代宮霧江には、……戦人を救えマセン。」 - "...... To Ushiromiya Kyrie,...... It is salvable Madsen as for Battler. "
RED - (Dlanor) 「右代宮夏妃には、戦人を救えマセン。」 - "To the Ushiromiya Natsuhi, It is salvable Madsen as for Battler. "
RED - (Dlanor) 「右代宮絵羽には、戦人を救えマセン。」 - "To the Ushiromiya Eva, It is salvable Madsen as for Battler. "
RED - (Dlanor) 楼座にも真里亞にも救えないのデス。 - 楼座にも真里亞にも救えないのデス。 - Same for Maria and Rosa

ED - (Dlanor) "Knox Article 7 [desu]. The detective can't be the culprit."
RED - (Erika) - しっかりと、殺し直したのですッ。」 Firmly, [] that has it. tried to kill"
RED - (Bern) - ………その後に、殺した全員の頭部を完全に切断したわ。 ......... Afterwards, All killed heads were completely cut.
RED - (Erika) - 「私が殺した５人全員は、……私が殺す瞬間まで、ちゃんと生きていました
。 "All five people whom I killed,...... Until at moment that I kill, It was properly alive.
RED - (Cornelia) 「「謹啓、謹んで申し上げる。 どちらも破られていないものと知り給え。」」- ""Dear Sir/Madam, I say respectfully. Know that neither has been broken and receive. ""
RED - (Gertrude) 「破られていない封印とは即ち、未だ何者の出入りも拒みたることの証と知
り給え。」 - "Sealing of not breaking, Know that whose going in and out is proof of the refusal who are thing and receive not yet. "
RED - (Cornelia) 「封印を破らずしての出入り、改めて言うに及ばず、不可能と知り奉れッ！
！」 - "Going in and out that doesn't take off a seal, It doesn't reach say over again, Impossibility and being possible to revere learning [].!"

>>4072494
Fake body.
Never proved one didn't exist on the island.
And in the cases the red texts refered to it, it was always specificly for the "unidentified corpses".

>>4072482
>>4072497
>>4072509
This is why I wait for witch hunt.

>>4072516
I post the Japanese as well in case someone wants to translate. It's not that hard to make out, though.

>>4072514
>no body double exists.

Personally, I would prefer Kanon to Kumasawa's descendant rather than a personality of some crazy bitch.

>>4072527
Reading comprehension, etc...

>>4072532
Except i'm sure that red text was used for the corpses with smashed faces.

>>4072527
>Regarding the unidentified corpses, all of their identities are guaranteed. Therefore, no body double tricks exist!
In red. If we assume "Therefore, no body double tricks exist!" means "The corpses in the shed were certainly Kyrie, Krauss, Rosa, Gohda, Shannon and Rudolf" then the logic is broken. "There are no unidentified corpses" does not lead to that definition. Therefore, it's "no body double tricks exist" is simply reaffirming the previous line - none of those unidentified corpses are anyone else. Their identities are confirmed.

It's because "therefore" is in red. If it wasn't, it would be valid. But because it is, the second line is merely a logical extension of the first line. Therefore, you can disregard "no body double tricks exist" and only consider "Regarding the unidentified corpses, all of their identities are guaranteed.". Therefore, if one of those things in the shed wasn't a corpse, this red doesn't apply.

With merely the word "therefore," this level of reasoning is possible for anon. How's that, everyone?

Speaking of japanese, has anyone read the moon theory discussions? what are their popular theories?

>>4072416
No twins nor body doubles, just two people who happen to share surname.
>>4072422
Continuosly implied that those orphans are not so "unrelated" to the family, not to mention all the mystery around Kanon's name until ep6.

>>4072571
The same thing. 紗音＝嘉音＝ベアト

>>4072573
Yet, they still have to put on a disguise for Battler, so there's no way around Knox's tenth. He had never seen Kanon before 1985 and wouldn't mistake him and Shannon for each other unless there are clues to indicate this.

>>4072585
Anyone can throw countless clues for Shkannon at you. Let's start with the fact that the only character pair Battler never sees together when he's the detective is Shannon and Kanon. Every other pairing you could make, he sees together.

>>4072493
Still leaves the question if that was it's only purpose and what the numbers represented. Though one thing does bother me, how (assuming it's to stop the detonation) come the code wasn't provided sooner?

And why wasn't Battler given a code after finding the gold in Episode 5?

>>4071085
please cease and desist with your spamming and harassing on our board www.anoptalk.com except with n instead of p thanks in advance have a nice day many hugs from tiny loli who just wants her board clean and nice <3

>>4072596
Genji included? Just want to make sure.

RED - (Erika) - ……まず、この部屋は内側から作られた密室です。 窓の封印は健在ですので、窓からの脱出はありません。 バスルームからの脱出方法ももちろんない。 ……はっきり断言しましょう。 この扉以外に、脱出口はありません。 しかしこの扉にはチェーンロックが掛かっています。 外すも掛け直すも自由ですが、それは内側からしか出来ません。 そして、扉から出ることさえ自由ですが、チェーンロックが掛かっていない
状態での退出は、脱出とはなりえません。 ...... First of all, The This room is a Closed Room made from in. Because the seal of the window is alive and well, There is no escape from the window. Of course, there is not an escape method from the bathroom either. ...... It declares clearly and the Then, I will. Besides the This door, There is no escape hatch. However, the chain lock takes to the This door. Though it tries to multiply though it removes though it is free, It is possible to do only from in the that is. And, From the door ..free the thing if only that comes forth., Leaving in the state that the chain lock doesn't take, It becomes and it doesn't get it with the escape.

And that's the end of that particular scene. There's more red on it later.

>>4072611
Of course. Genji/anyone Battler has seen together, I'm sure.

>>4072596
That's not a clue that they're the same person though. I mean, it's not enough on its own, even though its really suspicious.

>>4072622
But isn't that arbitrary? Who says what is and isn't enough to satisfy the knox rule? It's a pretty big clue. Next clue, Kanon's corpse is never ever seen by a detective.

>>4072617
I mean, the only possible scenes where Battler can see everyone together is when they're in the dining room. I don't remember Genji serving in the dining room.
In fact, I only recall Battler seeing Genji along with his cousins.

All the One Winged Eagle servants were extremely loyal to Kinzo what was there will to live after their Master died ?
Shannon = George
Kannon = Jessica
Genji = ???

Genji died with Kinzo.

>>4072635
Disregard this, I'm a huge faggot with no memory,etc.

Battler never sees Genji paired with:
-Krauss
-Rudolf
-Kyrie
-Kinzo (of course)
At least this is what I think.

>>4072635
Let's work through them one by one.
Genji with cousins - episode 1 just before noon
Genji with Shannon - episode 1 just before noon
Genji with Natsuhi, Eva, Hideyoshi, Rudolf, Kyrie, Gohda and Rosa - episode 1 at noon
Genji with Krauss and Nanjo - episode 1 just after noon
Genji with Kanon and Kumasawa - episode 1 shortly after dawn

That's everyone I think.

>>4072660
How was the dinner in episode 3?

>>4072686
here. forget that, i suck cocks.

I've been reading all the threads about ShKanontrice since the beginning and I am now 99% sure it is the good theory.

This is why I'm disappointed.
Multiples personalities disorder doesn't make a good mystery, it's lazy and crappy.

>>4072709
Not to mention it's the same trick from higurashi pulled again, only reversed.

>>4072709
you could not to know, but Ryuukishi called Higurashi a mistery at the time it was being released.

>>4072709
It's also the way to make none of the cast actually guilty in a way.
Which make it ever crappier.

>>4072709
>>4072718
>>4072721
>>4072727
YOU BAKA GAIJINS HAS NO LOVE!
STOP READIN MY MYSTERY NOVELS

>>4072709
>I've been reading all the threads about ShKanontrice
Shkannontrice has been debunked. Shkannon is the most likely, though.

Anyone actually satisfied by this theory?
There must be someone.

>>4072709

"Servants did it" is a terrible answer as well. Plus it doesn't explain just how nobody would bring up, "Oh hey, we've got a servant with MPD". Them keeping it a secret would be even more impossible, considering they worked at the mansion for years (and even left for vacations twice in Episode 2). So either they both existed at one point and one died before the story (therefore, re-hashing a plot point) which is pointless since there was no hints for it or we're supposed to believe they magically fooled an entire family in their own house for years. Either way sucks shit.

>>4072771
>Shkannontrice has been debunked.
Why's that?

>>4072709
That is why I really hope this theory is incorrect and try to find some holes in it.
Some people have said that someone disproved this theory one night but no one has linked it at the archive or rewritten it.

>>4072785
I remember this thread.
It wasn't debunked, one anon just say it wasn't "plausible".
Thing is that plausiblity isn't really a proof, especially for a fiction and especially for a fucking VN.

>>4072771
ShKanontrice was never debunked, and believe me many tried.

UMINEKO TRAIN APPROACHING TRAINWRECK IN TWO EPISODES!

>>4072628
It has to be provable. I mean, just think for a second. Who on earth could you convince that two people were the same simply because you had never seen them together in the same room?
Now, this is still an important clue when weighed with others, but I'm just saying it's simply not enough by itself.

If personalities are enough to count as people, then why does kanon count but beatrice doesn't?

I hear you on the corpse thing, but could you explain ep1 and 3 work? His corpse is confirmed undiscovered in 2 and 4, but what about the other eps?

>>4072783
Red at the end of the chapter. If you assume that Erika is allowed to call herself the 18th person in red because split personalities count as a person, then the total should actually be 19 with Shkannontrice. No one has substantiated an argument as to why Kanon, who deliberately says that he's not a human being constantly, should be counted while Beato, who also insists that she isn't a human being, should not. Lots of rolling around and crying, though.

Also, the point about the true master of the island being nineteen years old, with the picture of Beato's portrait in the background. Shkannontricefags try to get around this by saying on of Shannon's personalities is older than she is, for reasons they have absolutely no proof and cannot articulate.

Maybe that's not good enough for you, but until those holes are explained with evidence from the episodes instead of conjecture, I consider it debunked.

>>4072805
You know, I just realized I've never seen my father and my best friend together.

>>4072805
Episode 1: Only Nanjo sees him and it's never stated in red that he died. He faked his death.
Episode 3: Same thing.

>>If personalities are enough to count as people, then why does kanon count but beatrice doesn't?

I saw a good theory about it, it's basically because they both exist officially.

BLUE - (Gaap) - 「……嘉音に戦人の救出が可能よ。「……嘉音に戦人の救出が可能よ。 ヱリカ封印後に窓を出て客室の戦人くんと入れ替わり、チェーンロックを閉
めて、クローゼットに隠れた。」 "...... Battler's rescue is possible in Kanon. It goes out of the window after Erika is sealed and places changes into the Battler -kun of the guest room, The chain lock is closed, It hid oneself in the closet. "
RED - (Dlanor) 「……不可能デス。 窓も封印を維持していマス。 無論、ロジックエラー時にデス。」 - "...... Impossible [desu]. The window also maintains the seal and the mass.
In of course, [Desu] when logic makes an error. "
BLUE - (Gaap) - あんたが言った窓の封印は、“嘉音の”いとこ部屋のものでしょう？ じゃあ、隣部屋の窓はどうなの？ あんたは、嘉音の救出の可能性について、不可能と切り返しただけよ。 隣部屋の人間の可能性は、まだ生きている…！」 The seal of the window that the you said, "Kanon" Will it is and the one of [toko] [bu] shop? Then, How about the window of a next to room. The you, About the possibility of the rescue of Kanon, It only counterattacked with impossibility. The possibility of human in a next to room, It is alive not yet...!"

RED - (Gertrude) - ロジックエラー時に隣部屋の窓の封印が暴かれていたことを理由とする青き
真実の使用を禁じるものと知り給え。」 - Know that the use of the blue truth to which the thing from which the seal of the window of a next to room was exposed when logic makes an error is done as the reason is prohibited and receive. "
RED - (Cornelia) - 当該の青き真実への回答義務は、発生しないものと知り奉れ…！」 - An answer obligation to the blue truth concerned, Know the generation doesn't do one and revere it...!"

It's a bit unclear, but I think Gaap presents the possibility that Kanon escaped through the window. Dlanor denies that, saying the window was sealed. Gaap tries the other room, but Dlanor refuses to answer, and those two say answering that blue is forbidden or something. Gaap calls her a coward.

>>4072812
>>Also, the point about the true master of the island being nineteen years old, with the picture of Beato's portrait in the background. Shkannontricefags try to get around this by saying on of Shannon's personalities is older than she is, for reasons they have absolutely no proof and cannot articulate.

You must be an idiot.
Beatrice, in the myth, is 19.
But it doesn't mean that the real Beatrice is 19, it's just a question of symbolism.
The real Beatrice isn't blond for one thing you know.

>>4072817
Officially is not enough.
God do we really have to wait 8 months to have an answer to this ?

>>4072829
>Beatrice, in the myth, is 19.
Why? No one has given a good answer for this, other than "hurrrr myth for, uh, some reason!" It's not like Battler said he liked older women.

>>4072805
Episode 1 gives you the answer for that.
Remember how Beato tells Battler she can't exist in the island because he doesn't acknowledge her existance? That's the same thing.
Kanon exists because everyone acknowledge he's there.

>Red at the end of the chapter. If you assume that Erika is allowed to call herself the 18th person in red because split personalities count as a person, then the total should actually be 19 with Shkannontrice.
That's a pretty bold assumption. She says she's the 18th person, but Beato and Battler say there are 17 people, probably because Erika isn't supposed to exist in the first place.

>>4072817
>I saw a good theory about it, it's basically because they both exist officially.
Define officially. With evidence.

>>4072840
I see you never played episode 6.
Ok, i'll repeat for the 27th time.

The red text includes Erika among the 17.

There are still people who think Kanon=Shanon? R07 made a point to debunk that right at the beginning of EP5.

When Erika first enters the parlor, all 18 people on the island are present. At this point Bernkastel makes the detective proclamation, so Erika is effectively required to see only the objective truth by Knox's 9th. For her to go on acting as if they were two separate people after that proves that they are two separate people, because otherwise she couldn't be the detective.

>>4072840
But she exists.
And she exists as a person on Rokkenjima.

>>4072848
In the end it doesn't matter if she's the detective or not, because we hardly ever get to see her point of vie.

>>4072839
>Kanon exists because everyone acknowledge he's there.
Why? What is everyone's motivations for this? If Beatrice is another one of Shannon's personalities, why wouldn't they accept her too?

It's sort of like the question of, why would Shannon change into Kanon in order to leave the sealed room? That assumes she has a meta knowledge of red, which doesn't make sense on a mystery level.

>>4072840
>She says she's the 18th person, but Beato and Battler say there are 17 people, probably because Erika isn't supposed to exist in the first place.
Stated in red she killed people this game. How do you get around that if she wasn't on the island?

>Remember how Beato tells Battler she can't exist in the island because he doesn't acknowledge her existance?
GOOD
BACK TO SHKANNON.

>>4072805
>It has to be provable.
It definitely doesn't have to be provable. If it's provable, it's no longer a theory, it's a fact. Knox rule 10 has become a catch-all for people who don't want to accept a theory and disregard all evidence as "not enough". Even though Dlanor points out you're not supposed to use them this way. Along with using the scientific devices rule to even deny simple things like bombs, this is probably one of the worst ways people abuse the rules.
>Who on earth could you convince that two people were the same simply because you had never seen them together in the same room?
This isn't reality, it's a VN. A VN where the detective has seen everyone together except these two people, despite how long it's been. You're playing down that clue massively. It is a huge clue, don't deny that. I'd say it alone is enough to satisfy rule 10.
>but I'm just saying it's simply not enough by itself.
Why are you the one to decide that? Where's the point where Shkannon proof is enough proof for you? I'd wager there isn't really a point, it shifts depending on how much you like the theory.
>I hear you on the corpse thing, but could you explain ep1 and 3 work? His corpse is confirmed undiscovered in 2 and 4, but what about the other eps?
Other anon already explained this.

>>4072856
>Stated in red she killed people this game. How do you get around that if she wasn't on the island?
She does exist on the island, but only in episodes 5 and 6. Erika was an existence made for those two games. Originally, she didn't even exist. Bern even stated that in red for episode 4. In episodes 1-4, she doesn't exist at all. In episodes 5 and 6, she didn't exist until the very moment she arrived on the island. She was poof'd out of nothing by Bern.

>>4072840
Erika exists in both episode 5 and 6, for sure, stated in red several time, her own presence is never contested.

>>4072838
How should I know?
Probably because Kinzo met his Beatrice when she was 19 or something.
And since she is a "witch" for him, she is eternally 19.

>>4072832
>>4072842
The truth of the future shapes the past.
The island is basically like the Schrödinger's cat.
Nobody really know everything that happened on the island, so some people (those who write episode 1-6) make some stories about it, with the truth contained in these.

In 1998, Kanon and Shannon are still considered 2 different persons.
I can make this claim because nobody thought that they were suspicious.

So one of the truth of the future make them 2 different people.
And Beatrice of course doesn't count since she has no official existence.

>Beatrice
>Doesn't exist
Uu ?

>>4072856
Because you can lie about hiring a new servant, but you can't lie about a ghost witch visiting you to take your money and kill your family with magic.

>>4072856
>It's sort of like the question of, why would Shannon change into Kanon in order to leave the sealed room?
This really bothers me too. Yes, the closed room is solvable if Shannon and Kanon exist in the same body, but there's no good reason given for Shannon to switch to another personality and jump through the window to go rescue him when she could just as easily do it as Shannon. The only reason to do it is to get past the red.

>>4072865
Schrödinger's cat once again.
Erika fell in the sea near Rokkenjima, and probably died.
But you can't prove it for sure, because no one know what happened on Rokkenjima during these 2 days exactly.
She could have existed and therefore Bern could use her.

>>4072865
>Bern even stated that in red for episode 4. In episodes 1-4, she doesn't exist at all. In episodes 5 and 6, she didn't exist until the very moment she arrived on the island
You're just making shit up.
Erika didn't exist in episodes 1-4 ON ROKKENJIMA, WHERE THE GAME TAKES PLACE.
And she definitely never said anything about poofing her out of nothing.

>>4072880
How about working it in reverse? It's not up to Shkannon what the red considers him/her to be. It's up to the wielder of that red. Battler can alternate between calling him/her Shannon or Kanon.

>>4072865
>She was poof'd out of nothing by Bern.
No, she was poofed out of a corpse. There was a possibility she made it to the island instead of drowning and Bern capitalized on it.

>>4072880
Kanon was supposed to be dead by that time.
But moe-Beatrice used a miracle and revived Kanon to save Battler.
Yeah...

>>4072882
>She does not exist in the worlds before this one, nor does she influence them.
So you claim "the worlds" here refers to only Rokkenjima?

>>4072893
Yes. This is confirmed in EP6.

>>4072895
Must have missed that.

>>4072893
The worlds refer to the games on the gameboard.
And that gameboard is Rokkenjima during those two days.

>>4072884
Yeah, and he sure has a good reason to do that.

>>4072859
Your argument indulges in ad-hominem. I also explicitly said it was a huge hint, which you ignored.
I have seen your posts, and you make a habit of personal attacks and not reading what others have to say. I'm really not interested in your personal attachment to this theory, especially since other anons have explained it better.

After Ange told Auau she dislikes Gentlemen like George, this 4koma became so funny.

>>4072909
Battler looks terrified there

>>4072921

HIS LITTLE SISTER WAS ABOUT TO JERK HIM OFF IN FRONT OF HIS COUSIN THAT IS PRIVATE TIME ACTIVITES ANGE IS BAD GIRL

As for the whole "detective's perspective" thing, is there some special clause made clear in ep6 that the VN need to switch to first person from Erika's perspective for it to count as objective?

>>4072904
You say it's a huge hint, but you also say it's not enough, so acknowledging it as a huge hint is pretty worthless. What makes you think it's not enough? Like I said, that knox rule, along with the 8th one is just abused to deny theories arbitrarily by setting an invisible standard of what substantiates a clue. Even if you say my claims that you're setting it arbitrarily are ad-hominem attacks, there's nobody here who can absolutely say what the standard for the rule is, so there's no reason for anyone to use it to confirm on deny theories. As long as proofs here and there can be presented, which they always will be, the rule is worthless.

You're going to need a stronger attack than that.

>>4072929
No, but there is not any evidence that Erika was seeing the same things that Battler during episode 5. The biggest clue for that is Kinzo's ghost pointing to the gold.

>>4072440

Possibly. But I think both Shannon and Kanon were in on it, and my only real hunch is that both of them reach the Golden Land in EP1 (more or less). They would have to be alive at the end for that to happen, and it makes the whole thing more plausible.

Now you realize that Battler correctly guessed the first time that Kanon was playing dead in ep1, and at the time you probably thought he was making shit up.

>>4073014
But then he goes on to claim everyone else is acting dead too.

>>4072932
I'm more interested in talking with someone who lists more evidence. In fact, someone else very articulately did just that. That's more convincing to that point of view than being attacked.

>>4073014

Just think about Shannon and Kanon being the culprits and read the tea party. It's almost ridiculous how close to the truth Battler gets on his first go. He just lacked the balls to follow through on some of that stuff.

>>4072951
The big problem with this is that she's around people that acknowledge Shannon and Kanon as two separate people constantly. Even if she doesn't see them, they are talked about by people who act like they've seen both of them at the same time. This is not a big deal in EP5, since she was railroading Natsuhi anyway. But in EP6, she can't figure out a way for Kanon to leave the cousin's room to go to Battler's rescue, and so you think the girl with the photographic memory would recall a big Kanon-shaped gap in her recollection of the previous case when everyone is supposed to be gathered in the same room.

>>4073022
Also probably true. Both EP5 and EP6 hint at this pretty strongly.

>>4073029
No matter how much evidence you're given, using those knox rules like that is still arbitrary. I'm perfectly capable of giving more evidence, especially from episode 6, but there's no way of telling when, if ever, you will accept it as enough. If you want to form a solid critique of a theory, I'd say you should avoid those two points, because it's clutching at straws. I'm also left to wonder why you're asking for even evidence when supposedly someone already gave you some.

>>4072951
Yeah but he can't see things that other people present can't believe in. That's how it was stated to work at the beginning of EP5. Let's add to this the fact that the novel isn't written from Battler's pov. It follows him generally, but it's third person and follows other characters very often. Suddenly imagine kanon and shannon in the same room together as different people yet the same person would require its own explanation, since nobody hallucinates in Umineko, they just see things from thier own (more or less) consistent personal perspective.

Can any Japanese speakers who know literature explain if perspective has different conventions over there?

>>4073061
I'm almost sure that 3rd person = GM narration.
And you know the GM must hide the truth so the player side have to find it.

>>4073061
Doesn't Erika say something that implies she forgot Kinzo even existed in episode 5? Maybe she said she assumed he didn't exist.

>>4073125
I think that's just her arrogantly fucking around, to be honest.