/jp/ - Otaku Culture

fuck yeah Ronove on drums

Why so C76?

>>4060537
because it was the best cover ever.

and ryukishi needs to revive BT already.

>>4060521
please cease and desist with your spamming on our board ano
n
ta
lk.c
om thanks in advance have a nice day many hugs from tiny loli

By the way, guys, Featherine has been planned at least since around the time of Episode 3. Go read the "Bernkastel's Letter" TIP, those of you who haven't already.

>>4060543
Yeah, someone needs to ghost write Umineko, get this shit back on track.

http://lijianliang.livejournal.com/7057.html#cutid1

>>4060570
just copypaste it here?

>>4060570
By that logic, Lambda vaguely mentioned a character resembling Takano in a TIP, can we expect her sometime soon?

>>4060581

The TIP is like 50 book pages long, dude,

>>4060583
But that WAS Takano.

The person Bern was corresponding to was a being of a similar level of existence to her.

>>4060585
>50 book pages
>implying RK was actually foreshadowing this event rather than writing ideas without being sure how exactly to incorporate them into the story.

>>4060581
Sure, why not.

'Are you feeling well?'; such a conventional greeting would most certainly sound like sarcasm to you now.
That's why it'd be kinder of me to ask like this.
Are you still alive, my beloved friend?

Thanks for the reply the other day.

I got very surprised that you still had energy to at least write to me.
Well, the one who urged you to write an answer was me, though.
Even so, the fact that you mustered energy to at least write for me, for my sake, was a great surprise.
Or a miracle.

>>4060581
http://umineko.wikia.com/wiki/TIPS#Extra_TIPS

>>4060592
>But that WAS Takano.

Okay then. So Takano in Ep7 or 8 confirmed?

just google it lazyfuck

>>4060581
Sure, why not.

Bern's letter

To my beloved friend


'Are you feeling well?'; such a conventional greeting would most certainly sound like sarcasm to you now.
That's why it'd be kinder of me to ask like this.
Are you still alive, my beloved friend?

Thanks for the reply the other day.

I got very surprised that you still had energy to at least write to me.
Well, the one who urged you to write an answer was me, though.
Even so, the fact that you mustered energy to at least write for me, for my sake, was a great surprise.
Or a miracle.

>>4060611
Lambda was writing a diary entry that mentioned Takano, not writing a letter to her.

>>4060615
And also, thanks for the valuable suggestion.
I agree with your opinion too.
Perhaps, the wire puller is indeed Lambda-Delta
That girl probably found a witch who has the worst affinity with me just to take revenge on me and awaited for me to be lured.
And I fell to her trap like a duck.
... I see.
I guess this is so ridiculous it made you write to me.
I feel you're wearing your malicious smile.

But, when I think about your disease, maybe she is a precious being to me.
If she is a much higher-ranked witch than I, it means that that is very close to your disease.
In other words, it means that that is the only way to escape from the disease that eats into you, no, into us, and she is putting it into practice.
... And ironically, it also means she is teaching it to me.
But, if by getting on with that girl's farce, your disease will get better.
I'd like you to please lend me your strength.

Lambda-Delta boasted that I will 'absolutely' not be able to win in this game board.
At that time, I paradoxically identified the rule X.
She's really a stupid girl.
In other words, it's like the story that always starts from June, 20th.
Probably, this is the core of the Witch Beatrice.

>>4060593

>>4060629
Indeed, if we consider it that way, this Witch named Beatrice certainly is interesting.
She opened up a world that I, that girl and you didn't know.
The rule Y that makes it into the source of the magic.
It seems Lambda-Delta touched it a bit but too, but she can't possibly reach her level.
If we call this very thing as magic, except for Beatrice, certainly not one of us can be called a witch.
In that sense, we may say that since she put together her own magic system, even if she enters the beginners' class, as a witch, her level already surpasses the witches, ... and she is starting to step even into your level.
If she were strongly aware of that and comprehended it.
Not even Lambda-Delta would be a match for her, and I even less.
And most probably, I'll be afflicted with the same disease as you.
However, even so, this is really interesting.
I see this rule Y as the very existence of the witch Beatrice.

That's right.
I managed to analyze this far.
And certainly there's one more rule, the rule Z.
Because the number of phenomenona being observed that can't be explained with rules X and Y alone is way too big.

Rule Z's true colours are unknown.
By Lambda-Delta's speech, it seems that this component has a lethally bad affinity to me.
If we take 'that' as a hint, ...... what on earth could it be?

For now, I assumed that this rule Z is a maze-like existence putting haze over the truth.
In other words, a maze to not let me come close to rules X and Y.

>>4060615
I sure wish Bernkastel would act that nice during the Umineko games. It almost feels like she cares, except I can't help but think that she's only being nice because she realizes how fucked she is and can't turn the tables without Hanyuuv2

>>4060635
My power is just like writing up a map, making sure of all the forks of the maze, spending a hundred years.
In other words, no matter how complex is the maze, one day, I'll certainly be able to walk through it.
(By the way, if it was Lambda-Delta, I guess she'd just keep on walking along the walls until she arrived at the exit, even if it took a thousand years.
No, it feels more like she would cut through all the walls by making holes, in straight line, until the exit, without taking detours at all.)

What on earth could such a maze with bad affinity with me be...?
There's only one thing I can think of.
In other words, ...... it is a maze where it's meaningless to write maps.
Would it be alright to say that, for example, it is a maze of indefinite shape that constantly changes the shape, flexibly?
I see, if it is this general idea, I may be able to explain it with the Jan-Ken-Pon game that Lambda-Delta speaks of.
... Even if it is a maze that I can't walk through with my power, it must not be an obstacle for her, who can go towards the goal through the walls.

... I can understand it using this general idea.
But, if I try to grasp it as a rule, I can't understand it at all.
Because, originally, rules are immutable things, right?
Indefinite things being rules are beyond my common sense.
Even though it should be solid, it possesses a fluid face.
...... Like mercury.
In Latin, mercury means 'living silver'.
They believed it that leads to perpetual youth and it was highly valued as research object of the alchemists.
It's ironic.
In other words, it links to the alchemy and the witches, as she calls herself.
Unless I can unravel this rule Z, ...... no, just because I can't unravel it, Beatrice will be exactly a witch.

...... Aah, after writing so much, I got irritated.
If you did read until here, you must be laughing.
Eeh, you can bet.
Very soon you'll want to sneer at me even more after seeing my troubled face.

So, can anyone solve the Kanon's last closed room of episode 6 without Kanon=Shanon ?

>>4060640
Before long, I'll go to pay you a visit.
The get-well gift will be me.
You can sneer at me as much as you want.
You like it, right? To do that.
So, so that I can meet a friend I haven't seen for so long, please, revive.


Your friend who still believes to be dear to you,
Bernkastel
Then there's a lot of text of Ryuukishi talking about anti-fantasy x anti-mystery
Then some babbling with Beatrice and Ronove.

And then, some poems.
Love is an illusion, a misunderstanding.
Mutual love is a mutual misunderstanding of being mutually loved.
And engagement is a vow to not wake up for your whole life from that misunderstanding.
────Ronove
Many things were found from his room.
From those evidences, it is possible to deduce that I am loved by you.

Many things were found from my room.
From those evidences, it is possible to deduce that I also love you.

Nothing was found from her room.
However, I can't deny the existence of an undiscovered evidence X of unfaithfulness.
────Frederica Bernkastel

Didn't take much time to edit things, but yeah, that's it.

>>4060642
Not even Kanon=Shannon really solves that closed room.

>>4060657
"Kanon did not leave the room."

"Kanon does not exist in the room."

Was it only Kanon's body that wasn't found, though?

>>4060643
oh, so there's the reference for erika.

>>4060657
it solves the way Kanon entered there.

>>4060642
>Kanon's last closed

Kanon is a closet faggot.
SOLVED
NEXT

>>4060669
Because that was when Kanon "died" and Shannon took over.

>>4060686
And that window of Shannon's room was never protected by red text.

>>4060686
>>4060694
it doesn't have to be shakannon, though, since the servants have pseudonyms, it's possible that there are systems for how to use those names, and I don't quite remember Battler questioning that before.

>>4060723
but it was stated in red that only the owner of the name can be adressed as such, for each one of the 11(10?) locked people. would not it be cheating?

>>4060753
but was it ever stated that pseudonyms account for anyone in particular? You can say that x and y were on the island, but as long as you don't specify who (or in this case, what, since they can't be human) x and y is, like they did with kinzo, then you can't be sure about it. It's really nitpicking, though.

>>4060642
Is the relevant red text collected somewhere? Wikia only has up to episode 4.

did that one guy ever translate any more niconico comments?

>>4060779
http://umineko.wikia.com/wiki/Red_Text
Goes up to episode 5

http://community.livejournal.com/witchhunters/5207.html#cutid2
All bluetext up to episode 5 aswell.

Fred is not the final boss, Lambda is.

>>4060820
Erika was how I wanted Beatrice to be.

Remember when Beatrice was good?

"I'll love you and love you, and make you my toy until you're reduced to ashes."

That love was so beautiful, so dysfunctional. Now it's just dysfunctional in all the wrong ways.

>>4060874
Yandere Beato was definitely better. This faux somehow still real Beato can eat a wall of dicks.

Beatrice dies in episode 5.
LOL SPOILED!

>>4060893
She returns in episode 6.

>>4060926
So does Ange. Clearly Emiya Shirou would not be impressed with this faggotry.

>>4060937
Ange dislikes virgins.

>>4060937
Seriously, it's hard to bawww over any of the forced tragic scenes when you know they'll just appear next fucking episode.

>>4060955
>implying Ange would not be all over Shirou's dick once she met him.

>>4060968
>implying she's not saving herself for her brother

>>4060968
Ange'd rather go for Archer. On the other hand, Archer is technically Shirou, so whatever.

>>4060968
>implying Ange would not be all over (insert any name here)'s dick once she met him.

fix'd.

>>4060991
Sakutarou was Ange's first.

>>4060961
I feel like there was a time when I cared about the Umineko characters. I don't remember it anymore though.

geez guys Ange is the Witch of Resurrection, did you really think she would stay dead?

>>4060997
if care means looking forward to see how they die

http://www.livestream.com/teapartyofcertainty/old

George vs. Eva scene coming up soon

>>4060999
>The Witch of Resurrection can resurrect herself.

what a tweeeeeeest

InB4 Ange is the key to allowing Beatrice become revived in the real world.

>>4061048
>InB4 Ange is the key to allowing Beatrice become revived in the real world.

So the bitter part of the bittersweet ending R07 was talking about is the fact that Beatrice will no longer be a likable character?

>>4061048
Fucking awesome end would be if Ange said no.

>>4060955
Can you provide a screenshot of that scene?

Can someone repost all the relevant Red Text about the Kanon closed room?

Why can't Battler just strangle Kanon and carry him out the room? Or hide him (this only works if Erika didn't declare her Detective's Authority yet)?

>>4061056
Maybe it'll be something retarded like:

>Battler gets Beatrice and is happy
>Everyone else still has their problems and are pretty much fucked.
>Battler hasn't seen most of his family in 6 years and doesn't really give a shit anyways and gallops off on a magic pony with his new GF
>The end.

>>4061076
Because someone has to stay in the room and relock the chain lock after Battler leaves.

>>4061080
My blood is already boiling.

Allow me to 1-up you.

>>4061080
>Battler gets Beatrice and is happy
>Everyone else still has their problems and are pretty much fucked.
>They met on the following year. However, no one knew there was another bomb. The bomb exploded, everyone died (Ange included, this time).
>Battler hasn't seen his family ever since and doesn't really give a shit anyways and gallops off on a magic pony with his new GF
>The end.

>>4061110
>>4061080
10/10, raged just from reading it.

Hell, my rage will shoot to 8 simply if Beatrice is somehow created in the real world. Last two are of course for the hobo end.

So... was Senka's critique of Ep5 correct in retrospect?

>>4061110
>>4061080

>Beatrice was still a bomb in human form and as soon as Battler took her home and undressed her, she blew up and killed him.
>No one gave a shit because they were too busy dealing with their problems and never really knew him anyways.

TRUE END.

>>4061131
Not really.

Just to propose a new avenue for discussion other than Shkanontrice.

Did anyone ever notice that Eva LIKES playing detective? This is shown as early as EP1, and reiterated in EP5. She probably get's the same intellectual kick out of it like Erika. What if in EP7 Bern grants her the detective's authority?

And if we go by the assumption that EP3 =/= Ange's future, a Rokkenjima where Eva survives, finds out the truth and becomes bitter and angry is possible.

She also hates Ange which would suggest Kyrie is involved somehow.

Just throwing it out.

>>4061143
...Goddammit. And then Witches' Tanabata happens.

FUCKING BERNKASTEL

>>4061091

Did anyone force open the door afterwards? Maybe the chain was simply duct taped in place to give the impression of being locked? (EP1 2nd twilight)

>>4061143
>Eva w/ detective's authority
I'd be interested in seeing something like that but I dunno...

>>4061155
Erika had tape in place to prevent the chain from being tampered with.

>>4061142
So Battler hasn't abandoned his family to die and is instead just resigned to his fate?

>>4061155
Oh, about the chain:
http://community.livejournal.com/witchhunters/6828.html#cutid1

This is what RK had to say about the chain in EP1:

>The somewhat more interesting theory is this: "In the Eva/Hideyoshi locked room from EP1, the door chain is a bit long." There is no conflict with the description in the game, and it is a locked room.
>All [the culprit] have to do is reach between the door gap and take off the door chain (smile). Even though this is not the truth, it's an unique theory.

Do you think this could be a hint to solving what happened in Episode 6? Isn't it possible to just replace the tape in the same position that it was originally? (I don't remember if this was talked about in Episode 5, though I think it was).

>>4061197
> Isn't it possible to just replace the tape in the same position that it was originally?
Stated in red in Episode 5 that it isn't possible.

Also it doesn't matter, because it was stated that Kanon had entered the room, and then stated that he had not left it. It was then stated that he was not in the room.

So after going through Episode 5, the main thing that kept bugging me was why Erika would do things like tape up every window in the guesthouse, listen to Battler sleeping, or try to frame Natsuhi. Then it all came to me. She is legitimately Yandere for Battler. She genuinely wanted him to have the headship, and she would destroy anything that threatened this. Erika taped the windows because she knew that one of the other adults could make a move to take the headship from Battler. Erika listened to Battler sleeping because she is creepy and wanted to make sure that none of the cousins tried anything to harm him. Her big story about Natsuhi was a bluff to get her to admit Kinzo's death so that Battler could properly inherit the headship, otherwise Natsuhi could claim that Kinzo was missing and delay the passing of the headship for a long time. In addition, ruining Natsuhi would get another obstacle out of Battler's way.

Erika just wanted his dick all along. This level of reasoning is possible for a drunk anon at 2 in the morning.

>>4061128
>Hell, my rage will shoot to 8 simply if Beatrice is somehow created in the real world.

Well, you can have Beatrice (at least, in terms of personality) in the real world without magic. One big deal that was made in EP6 was that people can change though time. So, even if that girl wasn't Beatrice back then, during those 6 years, she may have become that way. And it was said that Beatrice's 1000 years as a witch could count as 6 years in the real world.

>>4061191
He does. In his story, no one was set to die (other than in fantasy scenes), until Erika fucked things up.

Wait, if Ange is the key to Beato's "resurrection," then... she becomes Beato? And then Battler falls in love with Ange-Beato? And then hot incest?

>>4061220
I WANT TO BELIEVE

>>4061197

Tape tampering leaves marks. Erika made sure of that. The problem is, will she notice if she doesn't have Detective's Authority?

>>4061167

Another thing. Erika specifically mentioned that the duct tape fuckery was a collaboration between Eva and her. Erika's not the type to give away that sort of recognition and respect out of hand. Eva must have a devious and twisty mind.

>>4060997
I never really cared for Battler and Beato. There are many much better characters.

>>4061221
Is it crackheaded to wonder if Erika is the only one you can Execute in the TIPS (and hear about the explosion about) asides from the five who were decapitated because Battler had it in his game that everyone fled in Kuwadorian ala Eva in EP3 to escape the explosion, or something?

>>4061220

>>4061220
Too bad Erika hates love.

>>4061213
Was Erika's special tape used for the closed room in which Battler was imprisoned?

>>4061233
The adults are the only good characters left. All the rest can die.

>>4061246
Yes. In Battler's arrogance, he stupidly gave Erika the ability to seal three rooms with it.

>>4061243
I'm hoping the crazy bitch comes back.

After all, how the fuck can Ryukishi develop her character to have a semblance of a backstory, and then kill her off in that same episode? And meanwhile we get boring ass George getting a lot of development.

>>4061220
Beautiful. Why did Ep6 have to prove this wrong?

>>4061234
Maybe, I wouldn't know.

>>4061255
>how the fuck can Ryukishi develop her character to have a semblance of a backstory, and then kill her off in that same episode?

He's a hack.

>>4061255

not happening.

>>4061248
Was the door the only possible way to enter the room? Or were there, perhaps, other places that would have allowed anyone to enter the place?

>>4061258
Did it? Pieces cannot act against their nature. Maybe Erika just chose to ignore her love because she believes that love cannot bloom on the battlefield.

>>4061286
Apparently Erika likes Dlanor, actually.

>>4061293
Like as in "What a good friend!", or like as in I want to scissor the fuck out of you?

>>4061293
Yes, she does. She told her that after she wins, she'd like to start a new game, and create a mystery with Dlanor.

>>4061167

With this idea, we also get Evatrice arguing the mystery side. Who knows what sort of twisted logic battles ensue?

Eva playing detective also brings out the possibility that she was doing an investigation in EP3 and she just asked Hideyoshi to alibi for her in order to buy her some time.

Evatrice's repeated killings might be a symbol for the repetitive nature of interrogation for instance.

Before anyone throws out that Eva is not so selfless to do such an investigation, she might just be fearing for her and her family's life because she found the gold and smelled the inkling of a murder conspiracy.

>>4061299
The latter.

>>4061299
The former, most likely, but keep in mind that this is coming from a person who has felt betrayed in all her experiences with love (whether or not she was actually betrayed is beside the point), and Dlanor is someone who will never leave the person she serves, no matter how pitiful, cruel, evil they may be. (Unless they break Knox's rules. Then she'll kill them.)

>>4061231

Also

>devious and twisty mind

>Evatrice's red web.

That kind of spectacular cornering has never been repeated.

For anyone who's read far enough into ep 6 why does..

Evatrice show up when George confronts her? and what happens in their encounter? outside of George killing her.

>>4061314
Remember when people tried to explain Kanon's disappearing body act like this? That he was a secret agent or some such? Good times.

>>4061314
Eva or Kyrie as the detective would be fucking amazing, since they are competent, and don't pull their punches.

Why do people seem the tape fucks everything? Just get more tape and that closed room is screwed.

>>4061341
The name's Kanon. Shkannon.

>>4061354
wat

>>4061354
You'd have to trick Erika into drawing her special marks on the tape first.

>>4061340
>Evatrice show up when George confronts her?

Because it's a fantasy scene.


>and what happens in their encounter? outside of George killing her.

Evatrice wanted to put George back in her womb (this being represented by the red web). Evatrice kept him in control at the beginning, but George was able to beat and kill her at the end.

>>4061354
Do you mean that after getting through a chain with tape over it they retaped everything? How did they leave? Or perhaps, they didn't...?

>>4061371
>Evatrice wanted to put George back in her womb

what.

>>4061371
>put George back in her womb

Fuck, I wouldn't resist. Unbirthing is hot.

>>4061369
Hey, you can trace it. Or perhaps she/he has a good drawing ability and copy it.

>>4061386
It's pretty fapworthy.

>>4061391
It was said in red in episode 5 that it can't be done.

>>4061391
Once again, stated in red in Episode 5 that it's too detailed/complicated to be properly copied.

>>4061268
Battler will give her a happy little Fragment to live in at the very end, where she can solve all the mysteries she wants.

...not likely... ;_;

>>4061389
>>4061394
PLEASE JAPAN NEVER DRAW PORN OF THIS

GEORGE IS TOO LARGE TO FIT IN THE 14 YEAR OLD VAG000 OF EVA

IT WOULD BE HORRIBLE

>>4061422
I wouldn't put it past Japan

>>4061422
>PLEASE JAPAN NEVER DRAW PORN OF THIS

Too late

>>4061422
It was a metaphorical womb.

>>4061446
wat

>>4061400
>>4061410
Then.... I heard if you get like water or something you can make ink rub off onto something (this is mostly done to make fake tattoo's and stuff as a kid) when you press it onto another object (again, it's mostly onto another's/your own arm).

>>4061468
Do we have to start posting Dlanor?

Erika was only acting more serious against Battler in episode 6 because Bern scolded her for her blatant yandere love of him in episode 5. She is a good, pure girl who obeys her master.

>>4061468
That was also said to be impossible.

>>4061468
I'm sure there are ways to do it, but it was stated in red it couldn't be done, probably meaning with the skills and items on hand at the island.

>>4061493
I don't think Umineko works like that.

Highlight of the ep was R07's messed up mother womb and wedding rape symbols. Battler's magician outfit could have been cool...if Battler wasn't determined to be an emo fail-caster. Battler was true to character this time around, once again proving his only power is making witches want to take his clothes off. We got some decent action sequences, a few good courtroom scenes, but alas, no Pheonix Wright (he's been especially fail this ep, possibly to make up for the cape). Really short this time. Overall, one of the worst eps...maybe the worst of all of them minus the first one.

.

>>4061505
Well it's bullshit otherwise, because doodling on a fucking piece of tape isn't exactly foolproof by normal mystery standards.

Ryukishi has shown to be pretty lackluster when it comes to writing, but surely he's not saying that is some brilliant method to keep a door sealed.

>>4061468
I'm surprised, slowpoke, you could think of such a response without reading Ep. 5.

>>4061512
>maybe the worst of all of them minus the first one.
Fuck this pasta, from a mystery standpoint, the first one was a great introduction. I wish it didn't jump the shark to this shit, he could have constructed an incredibly endearing mystery.

>>4061512
>Battler was true to character this time around, once again proving his only power is making witches want to take his clothes off.

He'll never have this effect on 34 and Bern. NEVER!

>>4061528
Would you prefer chopping people's heads off to make sure they're dead?

>>4061544
I'm sure Bernkastel wants to take his clothes off. So that she can then peel off his skin while he's still alive.

>>4061563
No, she'd probably rather do that to Beatrice.

What does Ange do in 7?

>>4061563
>>4061566
I'm sure 34 would like Bern to do that to her.

>>4061567
More exposition with gendebent the self-insert?

>>4061567
Ange did 7 dudes at the same time.

>>4061528

It leaves marks, cannot be replicated, and shows when a room has been broken in.

It is also an easily found household item combined with an unforgeable signature. I say it's useful enough sealing method.

Plus forgery skills haven't been shown or foreshadowed by anyone on the island.

>>4061483
Well, she needed to make sure that Beato wouldn't come back, see? The best way to eliminate competition is to not let it enter in the first place. So she had to crush Battler so he couldn't get distracted by other women.

SHIPPER GOGGLES SET TO 11, EFF YEAR

>>4061512
The first episode was the creepiest and had the best atmosphere.

>>4061585
Just you wait for the guestroom scenes in Episode 6. They're goddamn creepy, even more so than Episode 1.

>>4061591
I had to turn the sound off to get through those fucking things.

>>4061544
A tsundere 34 who wants Battler would be HNNNNNNNG-worthy. She doesn't really seem like that bad of a character. Or rather, she doesn't seem to have much personality, or relation to the story, unlike Bern who knows how to troll and fuck shit up.

>>4061543
this. The only mystery I've been able to gather in the latter episodes were from the brute force Knox usage and from the meta-discussion Ryukishi makes about love.

>>4061544

Maybe...but Erica, being basically a self-insert double of Bern, wanted to have her bedroom lined with mirrors after marrying Battler. Bern's old master has a big painting of cape-battler.

>>4061608
Wait until she starts trolling the shit out of Bern and Hanyuu again.

>>4061617
And she also wanted a birdcage to keep Beatrice in, did she not?

>>4061608
>She doesn't really seem like that bad of a character.

ahaha.wav

At least Bern is honest about being a cruel bitch. Lambda puts on the cutesy facade, but is in reality a spiteful bitch. She was laughing it up just as much as Bern was when they were calling Natsuhi a slut.

>>4061616
Well, considering Umineko is actually supposed to be a deconstruction of the mystery genre...

>>4061616

Perhaps instead of Question and Answer arcs like Higurashi, Ryukishi divided the story into Mystery and Fantasy/Insane Developments?

That's how things make sense to me, along with his statement that it could be solved with EP 1-4.

>>4061626
> bitch
Yes.
> spiteful
No, not really. Unlike Bernkastel, Lambda seems to be able to take things in stride.

Bernkastel still more lesbian this episode.
She mentions how she will put honey on her tongue then lick all Lambda's body.

>>4061635
anti-mystery vs anti-trolling

>>4061644
JUST FUCK ALREADY, DAMMIT!

Oh wait, that's probably what they were doing in the Episode 4 hidden tea party.

>>4061635
Well, the "Chiru" means something like "Breakdown" according to wikipedia.

>>4061630
where did ryukishi07 say that?

>>4061630
>deconstruction of the mystery genre
I do like that Ryukishi apparently feels he has the qualifications to do such a thing.

At least that means one person feels that way.

>>4061644
Tell me more, please. Give me as many details as you can.

>>4061626
Yeah, but atleast Bern goes out of her way to make these things happen. With 34, it feels like even if Bern didn't set that thing up, she would've just continued the game normally. It's like she enjoys when someone else gets trolled, but doesn't care enough to troll people herself. Of course, she'll troll people if it means keeping the eternal tie going that she wants so badly, but other than that she doesn't seem to give a fuck about anyone/anything.

>>4061656
I didn't realize that something has to be explicitly stated by the author for it to be a proper part of literary analysis.

>>4061636
She can take things in stride, but she still obviously enjoys hurting people. Like when she endorsed Battler as a witch, then immediately made fun of Erika "HEY HEY HEY YOU AREN'T THE TERRITORY LORD ANY MORE, HOW DOES THAT MAKE YOU FEEEEEEEEEEEEEEL?". Yeah, Erika deserved it, but Lambda was obviously just doing it for her own fun.

>>4061653
A better definition for Chiru would be to scatter/disperse. If we think of the mystery being concealed by a bunch of butterflies, then, when they scatter, we get the truth.

>>4061680
Well yeah. She's like a little kid, in that sense at least. Admittedly, a very smart and cunning little kid.

>>4061667
I did like how Lambda had no problem frantically trying to defend Battler from the logic error one second and then flip to cackling at him about the drain escape with Bern and Erika the next and then back to giving Moe-Beatrice encouragement after Battler had been trapped.

>>4061674
well, just like normal literature, you can't just go assuming that what you feel the author is conveying or trying to do is what he's actually doing, especially when your audience isn't a niche of intellectuals and/or are closely associated with the author in which case they can spread the word to others. You apparently don't know what a a foreword/afterword is.

>>4061688
Chaotic Neutral incarnate.

I simply like how 34 just does whatever the fuck she pleases. She doesn't give a fuck about the mystery or the fantasy. She wants to have fun.

Perhaps, I should do the same.

>>4061694
Perhaps the fact that Ryukishi07 told us from the very start that he was writing Umineko to confuse us, and that the mystery was not supposed to be easy to solve?

Yeah 34 is all appearances; she seems approachable, honest, and fairly harmless, but you'd best believe she can and will fuck your shit up. Contrast with Bern who is often cold/standoffish and pretty mean -- but you're getting something much closer to how she really feels.

>>4061694
Death of the author... literally... with BT...

>>4061704
There's also the fact that, unlike traditional mysteries, Umineko focuses on the characters, and it wasn't until Chiru that we even had a proper "detective" character. And, of course, said detective character was specifically written to show just how wrong the whole anti-fantasy vs. anti-mystery debate is.

I wouldn't know about this being a deconstruction of the mystery genre, but Umineko is definitely not a normal mystery work.

>>4061700
Lambda's not such a bad person. I mean, she's still a bitch, obviously, but I think there was a point where she told Battler she'd lend him her power if he was counting on a miracle to bring back Beato. Plus all her white-knighting for Bern.

So yeah, she pretty much does whatever the fuck she wants.

>>4061700
Yeah, Lambda could give us all a few tips about living a happy life.

>>4061704
you can't use that in this topic because it was meant as a challenge, it was written on the back of the CD case, for heaven's sake. Just because it's supposed to be hard doesn't mean the story automatically gets a free degrade. It also doesn't mean he can just abandon all forms of mystery while still trolling readers by confusing them with more and more rules.

>>4061686
I guess she isn't really evil as such, but I still would like to see something change about her before Umineko ends. She's been in the background for a long time and hasn't really changed. I'd really like to see some character development for her. Or a motivation other than "lol I'm a childish lesbian for Bern". Normally this wouldn't bug me but she isn't some side character, she arguably holds one of the most powerful positions in Umineko.

>>4061736
> It also doesn't mean he can just abandon all forms of mystery
Hence him finally giving in and revealing that Beatrice's gameboard does indeed follow Knox's rules (albeit a modified version of them).

>>4061738
EP6 actually does pretty well at hinting at depth behind Lambda.

>>4061722
if I agree with you on the point of how erika destroyed the debate of anti-mystery v. anti-fantasy, then it just proves how much of a troll ryukishi is; you don't go out of your way to explain certain elements of the story that sound like they pertain to it, and then disregard it by saying "lol, she basically breaks the system."

>>4061722
>wrong the whole anti-fantasy vs. anti-mystery debate is.

I miss that debate. Now it's all just R07 apologists vs the rest.

>>4061738
Episode 6 actually expands on her feelings towards Bern. She explains to Erika a bit of why she cares about Bernkastel.

>>4061758
EP4 was the biggest foreshadowing that anti-mystery vs anti-fantasy was a load of shit. EP5 just confirmed it. And the association of magic with love has been there from the beginning.

>>4061749
>>4061760
Really? That's good.

>>4061758
Uh... yes, we know that Ryukishi07 is a troll. That's not the point.

>>4061765
Is anti-mystery vs anti-fantasy something the fans thought up then or was it in a TIP or something?

>>4061778
A TIP, but it was written as if Beatrice had written it.

>>4061747
that's not mystery so much as slapping readers in the face; all that speculation you made in the previous episodes? Smack, they are completely wrong because of these rules. Dlanor and Battler discuss how Knox's commandments aren't meant to distance the reader, even going so far as to talk about the love between the reader and the author. Look closely at what ryukishi is doing now and tell me he's not putting up a ridiculous standard for what kind of "love" he expects in return.

>>4061778
Also, it was the general "beat the witch and disprove magic!" mentality.

>>4061738
Why would you want anything more from her? In fact, I'd say the way she is makes her far more scary than Bern. You know what to expect from Bern, since she's pretty much straightforward. 34, on the other hand, has an apparent approachable personality, but she'll make you suffer once she has the chance. Not to mention Bern outright states 34's intentions.

>>4061777
you don't pay attention to what you read, do you?

>>4061789
I admit I thought I had a pretty good handle on what "trust the author" meant, along with the theme of "without love, it can't be seen", and now I really have no idea.

>>4061760
>She explains to Erika a bit of why she cares about Bernkastel.

The whole "we both came out of similar hell-holes" deal?

>>4061789
You're assuming that everyone who speculated speculated wrongly.

>>4061800
34 doesn't go out of her way to cause suffering for the lulz, though she takes it where she can get it. She likes a good heartwarming story just as well for entertainment.

But yes, she's more scary than Bern simply because Bern is a hilarious caricature of over-the-top evil.

>>4061810
Just accept your anal rape. It will all be over in a year.

>>4061765
Personally I liked Dlanor's interpretation of love and magic. She doesn't accept magic, but she sees no reason to attack and deny others for her beliefs (unless she is forced to due to her job).

>>4061813
Yeah, that scene.

Umineko in a nutshell:
>Create story appearing to use logical reasoning and techniques to deny supernatural beings who claim to have an influence on murder events
>Appeal to anti-fantasy groups
>Shift plot into a love story
>Throw in a fuckload of witches and magical beings
>Troll the fuck out of people by using said techniques to prove magic exists
>Make it so that the murders do not involve magic, and that an actual culprit exists, but still reinforce that magic exists.

>>4061820
If I trust Ryukishi enough, will he make Shkannontrice go away?

>>4061832
Sounds about right.

>>4061818
Oh, I'm sure that several people might have the right idea. But you don't write novels, especially mystery novels, for that minuscule population. Let alone the fact that even though it's a sound novel sold at some Eastern massive community event it gets bootlegged and is internationally known. You're missing the point of my comments if you're going to nitpick these details, we aren't actually in one of ryukishi's novels, you know.

>>4061821
>she sees no reason to attack and deny others for her beliefs

But... that's fun.

>>4061789
But Beato said that she abides by Knox's rules in Episode 2.

>>4061836
We'll see.

>>4061836
No, in fact, by trusting R07, you got quite a splendid key to solve most of the mysteries with Shkanontrice. See? You can solve the mystery!

>>4061842
See >>4061848. Umineko is and always has been about the little details that people normally just skim over and ignore.

>>4061859
Too bad Shkannontrice also makes the mystery not worth solving.

>>4061832
That's pretty much perfect score. I feel like I was lured in under false pretenses of awesome theorycrafting and classic mystery, and now it's HOW DOSE I REVIVE MY GOLDEN WITCH and how many fucking personalities a maid has.

>>4061859
Hell, everything about the closed rooms starts to fall into place if you use that theory.

>>4061863
Ok, where did Beatrice say that, explicitly?
Second of all, why does that matter to what I said? It still doesn't change the fact that people got bitchslapped in the face right as the story talks about a trust between reader and writer.

>>4061848
She also mentioned Van Dines. And I see tons of love in this mystery along with other bullcrap that destroys the Van Dine rules. There's a reason why we never seriously brought that up. We didn't just skim over and forget about it.

>>4061872
At last count, it's probably four personalities at a minimum.

>>4061842
>But you don't write novels, especially mystery novels, for that minuscule population.

I'm sure the vast majority had realised the possibility of Shkanon from the very beginning (or, EP2).

>>4061883
She doesn't say it explicitly, she just references one of the rules. It's in the scene where red text first appears. She says something like "Was it Knox, or Van Dine? Secret passages must not exist."

Hardly confirming it follows Knox. Furthermore, the Knox rules in Umineko aren't the true Knox rules.

>>4061886
No, she was saying stuff about "no secret doors", specifically. She just didn't remember if the rule was a Van Dine thing or a Knox thing.

Though Ryukishi07 has done some ironic stuff with regards to Van Dine's rules. Just take a look at #20.

>>4061891
>really

>>4061891
Hardly anyone believed it after episode 5, though. Well played, R07.

>>4061900
I remember looking over them and thinking he must have purposefully violated as many as possible.

>>4061617
>Bern's old master has a big painting of cape-battler.

?????????

>>4061916
She does. ???? ep 6 scene.

>>4061891
We realized the possibility. We just wrote it off as being mindnumbingly stupid.

>>4061886
>>4061848
Actually it was a bit more vague than that:
>No secret passage exists that you all do not know of. Was it Knox, or was it Van Dine? It seems that in mystery novels, there must not be hidden passages, no matter what. I also follow that etiquette."

>>4061907
Of course, he DID say that there'd be a big trap in Episode 5 that would catch all those who hadn't reached the truth yet.

>>4061907
Yeah, way to withhold the truth. We're led to believe as long as the detective is present, everything in that room is true, and then we get LOL NO, HAVE TO BE NARRATION TOO.

>>4061920
I'd only written it off as stupid because the theories I'd heard were ones involving a single personality. The multiple-personality thing, with each personality actually being treated as their own individual, is something that I don't really mind as much.

>>4061921
Well then there you go. The only thing she seemed to abide by is no hidden passages.

> 11. A servant must not be chosen by the author as the culprit.

I KNOW WHO THE CULPRIT IS.

>>4061934
Someone with really good intuition might have wondered if that meant that she followed other mystery rules like that, though.

>>4061939
Kanon?

>>4061939
I laughed.

>>4061922
You mean the scene where he has everyone gathered in one room early on, but Erika is not present?

Even then, that would mean that everyone on the island was in on the dual personality. Lots of people overlook the scenes without the detective as a big THAT NEVER HAPPENED, but aren't they really just lies as opposed to random fabrications?

http://www.livestream.com/teapartyofcertainty/old
Kyrie vs Jessica

>>4061922
>>4061927
RK probably has a bunch of theories on a list, and each episode he rolls dice and picks which ones to cross out. The last one standing will be the real "truth".

>>4061945
> lies as opposed to random fabrications
...What?

>>4061942
Nobody wanted to start cherry-picking from which rules could be used at the time. Nobody.

>>4061945
Erika WAS present. The trick was that the scene was not from Erika's PoV. It was clearly from Meta-Battler's PoV, because he called Battler in the scene "me", quotation marks included. And his view point is of course unreliable.

>>4061944
I cried... so much.

>>4061934
that's hardly setting up anything more than what was already set, and it still doesn't make the argument that RK is fucking around any less valid.

>>4061920
That's what you get for being exquisite, and expecting something complicated from R07, and thus, you complain when you get shit.

>>4061947
Don't have time to watch it, so let me just say "Fuck yeah Kyrie tricking herself into thinking it's a nightmare and thus being able to summon magical allies and use magic".

>>4061948
I doubt that. He would risk his own "logic error". He probably figures out the truth for each mystery as he writes them. It would be much easier to make red that way, you know.

>>4061963
>that's hardly setting up anything more than what was already set, and it still doesn't make the argument that RK is fucking around any less valid.

The tone of your message seems to suggest that I don't agree with you. Because I do, especially this part...

>it still doesn't make the argument that RK is fucking around any less valid.

>>4061947
>http://www.livestream.com/teapartyofcertainty/old
>/teapartyofcertainty/
Sounds pretty gay. No thanks. Maybe if it had a regular name like episode6stream.

>>4061953
Well, when Battler denies Natsuhi and the servants' ghost of Kinzo early on in Episode 5 he couldn't just say "KINZO IS DEAD, THIS SCENE NEVER HAPPENED". He had to come up with an alternative explanation.

>>4061983
No, I mean... a lie is generally a fabrication anyway, regardless of if it's random or not. Maybe if you'd said "lies based in reality"?

>>4061969
Even worse. From the very beginning he nefariously tried to develop some shitty pairings and tricking tons of stupid teenaged girls on animesuki knowing full well that Shkanontrice is the truth.

>>4061992
Are you that surprised at R07 being a troll even though we've known this from the beginning?

>>4061997
*even though we've known that he is one from the beginning

>>4061983
However, wouldn't that be because Natsuhi specifically mentioned she met Kinzo and that he said that to Battler and the others? When she was arguing with Eva. If it was supposed to happen but nobody ever mentioned it, I don't think he'd need to explain it.

>>4061983
However, wouldn't that be because Natsuhi specifically mentioned to Battler and the others that she met Kinzo and he said the heart thing to her? When she was arguing with Eva. If it was supposed to happen but nobody ever mentioned it, I don't think he'd need to explain it.

>>4061992
The way you guys keep describing him makes RK7 more and more likeable, despite his story getting more and more out of place.

>>4061997
Nothing from Higurashi led me to believe we'd get trolled... like this anyway. I thought there'd be trolling in between, not for the final answer to be giant troll.

Ryukishi gave the Knox rules away as a free gift. It wasn't meant to smash away ridiculous theories (though it did that) but to provide a set of tools for solving the mystery. He assures us that it can be solvable.

Besides, Umineko is just toying around with the idea that, "If a mystery is narrated by an unreliable narrator, is it solvavble?", Ryukishi probably thought "Yes. If the narrator purposely leaves clues here and there."

I'm sure this has been done loads of times before. It's not exactly an original idea.

>>4061992
This >>4062008
Sounds like a cool guy.

>>4062010
What, mind-affecting parasites from outer space aren't trollish enough for you?

>>4061991
That's kind of the comparison I was trying to make. I guess I just needed to clarify.


The false points of view were justified by Knox's 9th, right? That's how Battler justifies his false point of view. So instead of stopping when we figure out when a scene is false, we should ask "why is this false scene being shown to us". See also the message bottle -- why did that person want to show false scenes?

>>4062016
They weren't from outer-space I believe but that was hardly trollish. In fact it was the ultimate anti-troll. It completely resolved all the main characters of their sins, making them more sympathetic.

Shkanontrice does quite the opposite.

>>4062013
Writing fantasy in mystery and isn't afraid of anything
>>4062011
That would only be true if he's actually leaving good clues, which I dare say he is not, you don't give out tons of information and then shut your reader down by suddenly introducing new rules AND including epic fight scenes that may or may not pertain to the story.

WHAT IS LOVE?
RYUUKISHI DON'T TROLL ME
DON'T TROLL ME
NO MORE

>>4062028
Ah, but that's the thing. R07 loves giving us clues in ways that make them seem like they aren't clues. And it's quite an interesting way to do things.

>>4062027
Yeah, Higurashi actually arguably went too far in avoiding trolling any fans who loved the characters.

Umineko, on the other hand....

>>4062037
I'm guessing this is R07's way of getting back at those who said that Higurashi's end was "too happy".

>>4062034
I'll laugh when all the supposedly valid clues are wrong, and the true end is just a bunch of bullshit.

>>4062027
>In fact it was the ultimate anti-troll. It completely resolved all the main characters of their sins, making them more sympathetic.

It wasn't a troll in term that your favourite characters received the shaft, but that the big answer was something as ridiculous as the L5.

>>4062034
That's one of the things that I've noticed a lot, and I plan to reread Umineko 1-4 soon to see if I can find any more of those small details.

5 had a really good moment like that concerning the letter, IIRC. It said something like "When the clock in the main hall struck 12" instead of saying "when it was midnight" or something. While this may seem like standard writing, I WOULDN'T PUT IT PAST R07 to have it be a clue that that clock is off.

>>4062028

This is because Umineko is designed for a reread. By using information gleaned from later episodes along with Knox, you filter away the noise and find the clues. He designed it to be unsolvable on the first read.

Knox isn't a curse. It's a tool and assurance that the writer is following the rules.

Remember when Beatrice was talking to Battler about Red Text? The rules of the game between reader and writer are sacred, because if they aren't, there's no trust, no love.

It's like punching your opponent in chess.

>>4062064
And now in Umineko we get an answer as ridiculous as a maid with four split personalities that simultaneously gives the characters the shaft. Brilliant!

>>4062065
Do you remember Episode 4, and Kyrie's watch vs. the clock? Yeah.

>>4062068
>punching your opponent in chess
that's what I feel like right now, to be honest. Sure, I'll go reread 1-4 with the knowledge I have now, but I'm not going to just shrug off that wound.

>>4062065
>>4062072
I wonder if the clock that is in the bottom right of the screen at scene transitions is even correct.

>>4062089
...Well shit, I'd never even thought of that possibility.

RYUKISHIIIIIIII

>>4062071
I expected a ludicrous plot and final answer that would leave all of my beloved characters intact.

I received a ludicrous plot and final answer that left all of my beloved characters irreparably broken.

>Van Dine's 20th rule

20. And (to give my Credo an even score of items) I herewith list a few of the devices which no self-respecting detective story writer will now avail himself of. They have been employed too often, and are familiar to all true lovers of literary crime. To use them is a confession of the author's ineptitude and lack of originality.

>(a) Determining the identity of the culprit by comparing the butt of a cigarette left at the scene of the crime with the brand smoked by a suspect.

[...]

>(g) The hypodermic syringe and the knockout drops.

Wasn't (g) the explanation for how everyone got transported to the dungeon in episode 4? And lol @ RK violating (a) word by fucking word.

>>4062102
> And lol @ RK violating (a) word by fucking word.
Except he didn't. In fact, he actually followed it. Battler's reasoning in that scene, while not terrible, didn't consider all the possibilities.

>>4062110
And, hell, knowing how knowledgeable Kyrie is, I wouldn't put it past her to have set things up just for Van Dine's 20th rule.

>>4062102
Just so you know, I'm pretty confident Hideyoshi and Eva were not the culprits.

>>4062110
I'm quite sure his line of reasoning is completely against 20 (a).

>>4062110
How did he follow it? The rule says specifically NOT to do it, but, as I recall, it's exactly what ended up happening.

>>4062102

Except he didnt violate it at, you know, all. He never got the identity of the culprit from the butt, he just knew Kyrie left to talk to Rudolf from it.

Okay does anyone wanna fucking explain Shkanontrice to me?

>>4062122
Yes, Battler's reasoning is indeed a violation of rule 20. It is also completely incorrect.

Here's hoping Erika, face or heel, returns to us in the next episode. ;_;

>>4062125
Nevermind what I said then. I guess looking at it that way I was wrong about it.

>>4062133
>incorrect
explain how

>>4062131
I'm sure you can think that by yourself.

>>4062134
I refuse to believe she is gone, she's one of the best characters in the damn story.

And I mean that not as a "good guy" character, she's a good antagonist. Bernkastel is not because Ryukishi just made her so fucking over the top. I half expect her to live in a hollowed out volcano or some shit.

>>4062131
Get the fuck out. It's the single most intuitive theory a person can arrive at after reading Umineko.

>>4062131
It's a theory that everyone hates, but seems the most obvious conclusion after EP6. A few people are still valiantly trying to fight against it, with mixed results at best.

>>4062146
Battler's conclusion - that Eva is the culprit - was incorrect.

>>4062148
>>4062156

Ouch.

Well a simple no works too.

>>4062153
I refuse to believe she is gone because that would make her the only character in Umineko that has really died. Even Beato got revived in some form.

>>4062170
Well, Featherine was the one who actually created Erika, apparently, so I guess it would be up to her...

>>4062131
Basically, Shannon = Kanon = Beatrice

>>4062170
>Even Ange got revived in some way
Adding to the point.

>>4061919
Wait. Featherine has Battler's painting? WTF?!

>>4062187
Featherine had been watching the kakera through him until he became GM.

>>4062166
If everyone believes something to be true, does that make it the truth?

>>4062170
She's not necessarily dead, just kicked out of the Meta-World for good, like Ange.

I wouldn't be surprised if any of them managed to return, at some point, though.

>>4062195
No tattoo, nineteen years old, Battler didn't want the solution to the trapped room to expose Beatrice's heart.

Let me live the dream.

>>4062184

Thank you. Just wanted to see if I was right.

>>4062166
>After EP 6

Ah well no wonder. I don't know really any spoilers on EP 6 nor that i really wanna know.

>>4062195
if all parts of the story lack elements of a mystery, is it still a mystery if everyone and their mom claim it is?

I know my favorite part is where the big floppy nigger just slaps it right in front of all of them and then starts screaming while he takes a shit when that Kaeri starts crying

>>4061617
>Bern's old master

You mean Aurora? She's not her master.