/jp/ - Otaku Culture

No fucking idea.

>>4054489
Ryuukishi is full of shit.

POV not being reliable in episode 5.
Basically that we saw Shannon and Kanon together in one room with Erika, that we are supposed to trust.
But that scene was seen from Battler POV.

That's why it was so poisonous, we were told that we could trust Erika but not that things at to be seen from her POV to be reliable.

>>4054489

EP3 wasn't the basis for Ange's future? Just a guess.

It's not the narrator stating Beato's motives though, even though many people missed that.

>>4054535
But... Dude. Was ANYTHING we saw in EP5 narrated by her?

>>4054545
No, anything, you can trus the epople she talks to, nothing more, also her actions and things she actively does

>>4054545
Yeah, that's why it's poisonous.
It's a big troll and the reason episode 5 and 6 are so fucked up.

The only thing that bothers me about that interview and the novel's content is...that the Golden Land itself has never exactly been explained. Overall it sounds like a place of happiness, but the definition varies from one character to another. I don't think Battler has ever questioned Beatrice about what it was.

>>4054554
*what the Golden Land

Is Ryuukishi a man or woman?

>>4054552
That's fucking stupid, though. So we had absolutely no reliable viewpoint for two whole episodes?

And if this whole narration shit is true, what was the point of never having piece-Battler present for a fantasy scene? As long as he didn't narrate, it was legit, right?

The only thing that bothers me about that interview and the novel's content is: 'what is the Golden Land?'. Overall it sounds like a place of happiness, but the definition for it varies from one character to another. I don't think Battler has ever questioned Beatrice about what it really was.

>>4054564
Yeah it's stupid.
But it's also stated in episode 6.
And Erika is absolutely not reliable in episode 6 too.
The only thing you can trust is the red.

You can only believe
- Meta-Battler
- The Detective in the Gameboard

EP1-4 = Piece-Battler
EP5 = Erika

>>4054564
you have a semi-reliable one, what happens for real happens, erika's conversations and whatsoever are true, in ep6 the POV is her most of the time, even if she wasn't the detective
Battler was already said that he wasn't the detective in ep5, don't be so surprised now

Yes. Most of Ep5 is seen through Piece-Battler's eyes, but Erika should be the reliable viewpoint.

Who is the detective in EP 6 ?

>>4054588
Hideyoshi

>>4054588
no one till the dissapearance of Battler, right when Erika is going to enter, Battler allows her a bit of cheat so she can tape some rooms to exercise her rights->Battler=stupid

>>4054588
Erika

>>4054565

the golden land is hell

is it not

>>4054668
for Beato, the Golden Land is where Battloer is, now the same for Battler

R07 sure knows how to troll

>>4054693
don't worry, you still haven't seen shit of his trolls, remember the parasytes in Higurashi, that was small time compared to what's he going to pull off now

The Golden Land is Kuwadorian, the place where the BOMB explosion will not reach.

>>4054701
He isn't going to pull anything from the left fied you know.
He already said that episode 6 was made to confirm the doubts of those who knew the truth.

You can fight against the truth all you want, but it's going to end with ShKanontrice and Bomb, and probably fanfiction as well.

>>4054710
I stilldoubt Shkanontrice

Maybe Ange's EVA isn't EVA at all but someone impresonating her to get the inheritence. If you think about it, it makes sense. If EVA had a particularly ballsy look-a-like it could work.

>>4054710
>fanfiction

I liked it more when people called it "Fragments".

Also, confirmed that Amakusa killed them all because Okonogi ordered him.

>>4054716
Fragment implies parralel world.
Umineko won't have parralel world, it will most likely ends with one true world.

>>4054710

the culprit is a 16 year old girl?

really?

and she massacres everyone because battler dont love her no more?

you expect this third-rate trash from the higurashi guy?

>>4054710
also, you here are just not really thinking about Featherine, she 'wrote' games 3-6, but who says she isn't:
a) with the rest of the letters mentioned in ep4, copy them and make them into a novel
b) record what she's seeing as a witch from her observer position
it isn't that difficult to deny the fanfiction

>>4054724
SECRET ORGANISATION
PSYCHO WOMAN WHO WANT TO BECOME GOD OR SOME SHIT LIKE THIS BECAUSE OF HER GRANDFATHER
AU AU GHOST GIRL

Higurashi was so fucking deep, blew my mind.

>>4054737
have you read the VN? Miyo's reasons seemed reasonable, she was crazy but understandable, there's also foreshadowing for Hanyuu and her interactions with Rika+explained past, which helps, the secret organization had enough froeshadowing when talking about the white van and so on

>>4054489
So it's a legitimate riddle then? The kind mentioned in the game where you don't have to wait for later Episodes to solve. The answer can be found if you try to solve it now?

>>4054724
But dude, umineko is already third rate trash. The "higurashi guy" suddenly started spamming theories and magic and red truths and denying and blah blah, and you say we shouldn't expect the "higurashi guy" to make third rate trash?

>>4054724
There's 2 sides to the Beartrice persona.
The murderous witch.
And the ideal girl of Battler.
Second one was of course made for Battler, first one was most likely made by Kinzo.

Game is probably Beatrice following some master plan Kinzo prepared.
But she still leave some chance to Battler to stop her.

>>4054739
It's a troll, anonymous.

>>4054742
Yeah.
Episode 1 to 4 are enough to solve Umineko.

>>4054739
Yeah and ShKanontrice, bomb and fanfiction have enough foreshadowing too.

>>4054742
he said it from ep1, the riddle can be answered and poeple got really close, but the hard part is that you need to be on Rokkenjima to find the actual place
You can solve it, understand everything but the place is just too specific and needs you to be in Rokkenjima
possibly the chapel or Kuwadorian, but all the adults are so surprised when it's found, it must be obvious but misleading at the same time

>>4054747
Not a troll.
Just that the answers were stupid in Higurashi, no matter how well foreshadowed they were.

And they are going to be stupid in Umineko too.

>>4054751
I thought it was said that episode 5 was enough. Since it includes the Knox rules and whatnot

>>4054768
He himself claimed that Umineko was entirely solvable only using episode 1 to 4.

>>4054776
Oh, alright then. Sorry about that.

>>4054758
The adults never knew about Kuwadorian.
Only Genji and Kumasawa.

>>4054776
look at Featherine, she solved it with two eps, cheating being the observer and the possible absolute creator of the game, but taht's it

>>4054782
And Nanjo.

>>4054776
So Ange and Amakusa, a sharpshooter, are out as the culprit. Kinzo is dead too. Natsuhi isn't the culprit either....
Natsuhi's son doesn't exist.

Erm...Gohda? I always hated his face. It had that really creepy smile

>>4054782
and nanjo, he knew the tunnels

>>4054785
What role would Gohda play in the murders anyways? He's obviously not the culprit.

>>4054785
it does exist, but probably is not related to the murders itself, only the background story of the culprit.

>>4054790

MAGICAL GOHDA CHEF

>>4054785
read the notes of a certain cook, it gives you background and why he's, at most, the goats

>>4054790
moves corpses, he's big and strong, the first twilighht amkes you move six in one night, Gohda's help is handy, but i don't know how he'd betray Natsuhi

Why does Beatrice hate mirrors so much?
The mirror Shannon brole at the beginning of episode 2?
The mirror of Natsuhi?
Maybe because she doesn't like the fact that her mental image of herself doesn't look like what she really look like.

You can't escape from ShKanontrice.

>>4054818

>brole

What I don't understand is how we're supposed to pinpoint the culprit when we can pretty much blaze through just EP 1-4 and paint anyone as said culprit. Take for instance Kanon, you could use him as a single culprit for EP1. You can also use Rosa and Genji as just two culprits in EP2. It'd be different if we were actually on Rokkenjima because we'd be able to physically try theories ourselves.

>>4054818
you got a poin there, but still I'd like to see it disproven
I prefer 2 people with double than one with 3

>>4054843
There's only one main murderer.
This is what Umineko is about, Battler doesn't want to think anyone of his family could be a murderer.
To think that every episodes has a different group of killers is just too contrived and goes against everything Umineko is going for.

Also ShKanontrice does create a mysterious x murderer in a way, so you could say that none of the 17 are killers, which is again what Battler was always going for.

Fantasy will prevail.

I refuse to believe it guys

Shkanontrice HAS to violate SOME knox rule...

>>4054867
Chinaman.

Playing through the game again with this theory in mind here.
Honestly it really does seem obvious.
Especially the way Kanon always appears around Shannon.
Or the way they constantly degrade themselves.

>>4054864

If we're going to find just one single culprit. It points to Kanon. I can say that with confidence. Whether or not he has split personalities and or dresses up as the little girl is a different story.

>>4054867
It doesn't, people have tried before.

So, any leads on the riddle?

>>4054884
Taiwan.
Search about it in easymodo.

>>4054818
It has something to do with eastern and western magic. As Beatrice is a western witch, she has a poor affinity to eastern magic. It's explained in Episode 6.

>>4054891
That's just fantasy bullshit.
These scenes do mean something but you shouldn't take them so literally.

>>4054891
>As Beatrice is a western witch, she has a poor affinity to eastern magic. It's explained in Episode 6.
No..I'm positive it was explained much earlier than that. In episode 2 or 3.

>>4054867
Rule 10.


I. The criminal must be someone mentioned in the early part of the story, but must not be anyone whose thoughts the reader has been allowed to follow;
II. All supernatural or preternatural agencies are ruled out as a matter of course;
III. No more than one secret room or passage is allowable. I would add that a secret passage should not be brought in at all unless the action takes place in the kind of house where such devices might be expected;
IV. No hitherto undiscovered poisons may be used, nor any appliance which will need a long scientific explanation at the end;
V. No Chinaman must figure into the story*;
VI. No accident must ever help the detective, nor must he ever have an unaccountable intuition which proves to be right;
VII. The detective must not, himself, commit the crime;
VIII. The detective must not light on any clues which are not instantly produced for the inspection of the reader;
IX. The stupid friend of the detective, the Watson, must not conceal any thoughts which pass through his mind; his intelligence must be slightly, but only very slightly, below that of the average reader;
X. Twin brothers, and doubles generally, must not appear unless we have been duly prepared for them

>>4054901

It was explained in EP 2.

Alright then, ShKanontricers, explain to me one thing

How did the later twilights (red eye Kanon) happen in Episode 2 in reality?

Shannon dressed up as Kanon -> Backdoor -> Kills Kumasawa and Nanjo......gets pinned by Gohda against wall-> runs to get a spider web as Shannon....-> uses spider web on the wall

what?

>>4054902
They aren't the rules used in the game.

>>4054908
Really? That's strange.

http://www.diogenes-club.com/knoxrules.htm

>>4054902
Violates rule one, and clearly so.

>>4054867

It has a "possibility" of violating a Red, unless the definition of a person is clearly stated in the next game.

It comes down to: "The clues and foreshadowing are all there, and I believe it's only a matter of time until Ryukishi confirms it with his definition of a person."

"For various personal reasons, I believe this theory to be wrong. Since such a counter in Red is still left in, the possibility that this is a red herring still exists. Ryukishi will come up with a definition of a person that troll the hell out of everyone."

It's all come down to personal preference now. Either someone breaks the theory down with logic, or another equally valid theory is presented.

/jp/ is now EP5 Erika, impaled by seven red stakes and a blue spear.

>>4054818

That isn't specifically about Shkanontrice. On its own, it just means Beatrice looks different from RL counterpart. It's even pointed out by the narrator in EP3, when Battler reforms her in the image of the Golden Witch.

>>4054910

Yeah. The rules for the game are modified.

>>4054906
Didn't happen that way.
Zombie Kanon aka Beatrice mode definitely killed Kumasawa and Nanjo.
But Gohda saw this and ran away, Genji who is an accomplice but not a murderer manipulated him and gained time for Beatrice mode to go back to Shannon mode.
Or something like this.

After Genji scared Gohda by saying that what he saw was impossible and that he would be thought of being the culprit if everyone else listened to this story.
So they decided to make another story with Shannon where Gohda plays the hero.

>>4054935
I bet witch hunt just fucked the translation.

Knox rules are fucking stupid.

>>4054942
Rule #5 are excluded

>>4054927
Self-image is something very important with DID, they really think that they look like the image they have of themself in their heart.
I say that this is a big hint.

>>4054867
Twins/doubles. Except you have been prepared.

>>4054901
>>4054900

It is explained earlier. The topic comes up again in Episode 6, with the two Beatrices. One of them represent the legend of the witch and the other a human.

>>4054942
That's the answer to everything that makes ryukishi look bad, huh?

>>4054942
no, Ryu just simplified the rules

>>4054940
Can someone explain to me why would a observer who is getting killed intentionally change EVERYTHING and make up monsters and shit that didn't happen if they are innocent?

I can get how one can unintentionally claim they saw goats since someone used a disguise but some of the shit you guys claim to support shkanon is just ridiculous.

>>4054900
>That's just fantasy bullshit.

This is the entire problem with Umineko theories since Ep5. Both the fantasy and human side exist as explanations for the same thing. The fantasy side isn't just a "bullshit" way someone like Maria interprets the events, it happens in an overlapping parallel world and can give some important clues as to what's really happening in both worlds.

>>4054955

Do we gain new knowledge about the EP4 balcony scene then? The one with switching Beatos? One more moe, and the other dignified?

>>4054967
Overlapping universes is also bullshit.
I already said they were important scene even if they are fantasy.

You just have to get the meaning in them.

>>4054739
>white van
Shirakawa-go/Ogimachi is filled with nothing but white vans, like all of Japan is full of white vehivles.

>>4054963
Genji follows Kinzo's master plan.
He is basically like a samurai, he will follow his master to the grave after executing his last will.

And you didn't get the Genji/Kinzo thing?

>>4054942
Laws #5 and #9 are the only ones to have notably changed. #3 is a minor change.

>>4054978
I mean the suspicious white van that always appears and then no one remembers about it. Also serves to connect Irie to the whole plot,. what k1 sees is a white van, it appears lots of times and it's always the same

>>4054973

It's not "bullshit". Fantasy obviously exists or the whole meta world thing wouldn't exist among other things. Post character development Battler is only debating the existence of witches on the gameboard itself, because it's silly to try and explain everything with black magic even if it's possible it exists, it sets you up to be mislead.

Both fantasy and human side exist. If the human side can be proven beyond a shadow of a doubt, no shadows exist for the fantasy side so that reality shatters. But that is, of course, only the gameboard, since witches exist outside of it anyway or else there wouldn't be a gameboard to begin with.

In the game:

Knox's 1st. It is forbidden for the culprit to be anyone not mentioned in the early part of the STORY!

Knox's 2nd. It is forbidden for supernatural agencies to be employed as a detective technique.

Knox's 3rd. It is forbidden for hidden passages to EXIST!

Knox's 4th. It is forbidden for unknown drugs or hard to understand scientific devices to be USED!!

Knox's 6th. It is forbidden for accident or intuition to be employed as a detective TECHNIQUE!!

Knox's 7th. It is forbidden for the detective to be the CULPRIT!!

Knox's 8th. It is forbidden for the case to be resolved with clues that are not PRESENTED!!

Knox's 9th. It is permitted for observers to let their own conclusions and interpretations be heard!

Knox's 10th, it is forbidden for a character to disguise themselves as another without any CLUES!

My only problem with the theory (although I haven't read episode 6 yet), is that it makes no sense for Shannon to be Kanon on the basis that not a single fucking person on this island knew that they were the same person (other than George and Jessica, I presume)? I mean, Natsuhi is in charge of the servants, how is it possible that she has never suspected Shannon to be the same person as Kanon, or how is it possible that Kanon has been faking being Shannon all this time? Or is half the family in on this while the other half doesn't know shitall? Although I understand that this might've been cleared up in episode 6, since this theory seems so strongly believed in.

>>4054993
You are the one being mislead.
You look at one side and the other and differentiate them as 2 completely different sides.

I say that we have to see the middle.
The fantasy scenes happen in some way, but not in the way we see.
The meta-world exist in some way, but not in the way we see as well.

>>4055000
Genji/Ronove, Kumasawa/Virgillia and Gaap/Nanjo knew.

And Shannon/Kanon were KINZO's servants not Krauss or Natsuhi.

>>4055000
not really, Natushi should know, also Krauss, Genji and Kumasawa, I don't think Gohda does though, i think they respect their privacy. Of course Jessica and george don't know

>>4055010
Yes, but KINZO has been dead for over a year. So it's not like Krauss and Natsuhi wouldn't know them well.

Out of curiosity, does George ever talk to Kanon at all during any of the Eps?

>>4055002
>The fantasy scenes happen in some way, but not in the way we see.

Not quite. Its like Dlanor's explanation with the candy. Although observers can think its magic, and you don't question the process, the important thing to take out of it is the real end result. Observers can be led to think something happened in a totally different way, for example, a fairy gave Maria candy for being a good girl, or Battler slipped it in her pocket. That makes it difficult to draw parallels between scenes. That darkness and ambiguity is where witches and demons reside, it can be said anywhere one can be seen, there is dark space and ambiguity. The important thing is hat in the end, the tea is real.

>>4055023
Jessica (supposedly) talks with Shannon, though.

>>4055022
Secret was being protected by Genji and Kumasawa.
Natsuhi and Krauss are both very self-centered, it shouldn't be hard.

>>4055010
If Shkanontrice is real, Kinzo would have to know about it.
Under this theory, Shannon = Lolitrice. This would imply that she was Kinzo's sex toy.
Kinzo thinks of Kanon as a son.

How the fuck does this work.

>>4055033
Doesn't say anything about being a sex toy.
And he probably knew about the different personalities, he knew that "Kanon" wasn't his "Beatrice".

>>4054993
Except that the reality of the world is that multiple truths can exist. Because multiple truths can exists, there exists some dark space in which witches exist.

>>4055031
True, but if George was set on marrying Shannon, surely he would've talked to Kanon at some time, since he's the closest thing she has to family.

Who the hell was the Beatrice Rosa killed in EP3?
Who was cosplaying as Beato in the balcony scene in EP4?

>>4055023
I don't...think he ever has.

>>4055033
EXCEPT KINZO WAS DEAD ALL ALONG

>>4055031
Yes. Personally, that's why I suspect Jessica would be involved in these shenanigans, somewhat. But Shkanontrice's weakness is that it requires everyone who knows them to either be TOTAL, and by total I mean braindead as fuck morons, or in on the act. Which is a hella lot of people.

>>4055044
Kinzo used to think of Kanon as a son though, it's been stated that he often took him out.

>>4055038
Was that actually ever proven?

>>4055045
Only Genji, Nanjo and Kumasawa should know.
Genji is following Kinzo's will to the letter.
Nanjo and Kumasawa are both greedy and want the gold.

Nanjo and Kumasawa probably don't think they are going to be killed, Genji doesn't care.

>>4055049
Redtext.

>>4055045
No one really pays attention to servants anyways.

>>4055050
What, that Kanon and Shannon saw each other as family or that George has ever spoken to Kanon?

The first one makes since, if either Shannon or Kanon aren't real, then they're a magically constructed person in order to fill in for their lack of family, just like Sakutarou was for Maria's lack of friends or Natsuhi's lack of a positive father-in-law.

As for the second, I'm not sure.

>>4055002

Not that Anon.

But I disagree on a few points.

Rokkenjima is a closed circle cut off from the outside world. No concrete explanation about what happened there exists.

Through this, Beatrice is allowed to apply her own interpretation on events, and since nobody was there to witness and record what happened, nobody can deny that demons and witches did all of it. So they happened. They are true, because nobody can present a better theory. Remember EP5, Court of Illusions? That's the sort of messed up place Rokkenjima is. Since an outside observer is not there to deny anything, what everyone agrees on, becomes the truth.

Consider this as well. Everybody dies in the end, and nobody there can tell their story, so the truth of that incident is lost. That's the witch's darkness.

So from that certain perspective, They happened. They definitely happened. Unless you have concrete proof, You can't just assume that it did not.

The phrases, "It doesn't make any sense.", "Magic obviously does not exist" hold no meaning in this situation. Battler took a long ass time to figure that out.

Since Beatrice's tale has purpose, I'm sure that the fantasy scenes are a metaphor, but even if it's a metaphor, it doesn't mean it didn't happen.

If you notice as well, Beatrice tends to paint the Ushiromiyas in an honorable light as much as possible, she sets herself up as the evil witch who does everything evil and nasty. It's a small kindness to Battler, until he can figure out the (nasty) Truth.

At least in those Kakeras, the Ushiromiyas died fighting and with a little dignity.


Meta World is obviously a metaphor and commentary on the nature of mystery fiction and the relative values of truths, but that doesn't mean it didn't happen as well.

>>4055071
No, no stop. You can't say something happened simply because it can't be denied. You could say the truthfulness of it is as valid as any other idea, but you can't say it's the truth. There exists one clear, objective truth as to what happened on the island. Because we don't know what happened, the idea of magic is as truthful as any other idea, but that doesn't make it THE truth. The cat in the box is either alive or dead, but before you open the box, the idea that it is alive is as truthful as the idea that it is dead. Do not take that to mean that simply because I can't disprove the fact that it is alive means that it is alive.

>>4055071

At the same time it is stated and implied that there is a definite "truth", it's not completely relativistic - as it's said specifically that the "real" truth might not be known.

We know a few things about the "real" truth - we know that some kind of magic must exist or the game wouldn't even happen. Things that are internally consistant and unambiguous are "real" truths.

There is one set of events that "originally" happened on Rokkenjima, with Battler and Beatrice's ideas being written on top of them. For example, if you were to go back in time(Which Bern might be able to do), what would you see there?

What you'd want ideally is to present the false truth closest to the real one. However fake truths also "exist" which is how fantasy can exist, similar to the many worlds theory. There's still always something under the shadow, but it doesn't change the fact that the shadow is there too.

If that makes any sense. There is one absolute reality with multiple "patch" realities fighting to exist on top of it.

I solved how the personalities of ShKanontrice were created.

First there's the original girl, calm and composed type, this one was completely subdued and disappeared.

There's the second personality, Beatrice, who was created to suit Battler wants, this personality was fucked up by Kinzo though.

The third personality, Shannon, was created to seduce Battler, as a setting she was given big boobs, yeah she wears PAD, since Battler like big boobs.
But Battler didn't come for 6 years and this personality strayed from her purpose, that's the reason Beatrice hates ShannonxGeorge so much.

And there's Kanon, he was created for the sole purpose of seducing Jessica.
Basically "Beatrice" saw that Jessica was looking more and more like Battler ideal, she decided the best way was to seduce her first.

>>4055137
Go back to /a/. This is the stupidest shit I've ever seen.

>>4055137
I think that kanon appeared as a way to calm and confort the shannon persoality because of the Kinzo's rape, a 'stronger' eprsonality that gets less afected and helps her
his duty is to 'protect' his sister

>>4055137
Fuck this shit, god, Jessitrice seems like a godsend compared to this crap.


You know what? This is something I'd expect from a harem comedy, not a murder mystery...

>>4055148
>>4055157
Too bad it's going to happen, and nothing you could do could change it.

>>4055148
/a/ fucking despises Shkannontrice. Or any kind of ____trice.

>>4055157
harem comedy with rape and split personalities,n please tell me one, the nearest is the girl with 5 personalities, mahoroba

>>4055170
It's not going to happen, you people fell into a blatantly obvious trap, enjoy your episode 7.

>>4055175
That's because they are shipper faggots who want to see Battler ends with Beatrice as her own person.

Too bad this possibility was completely destroyed in episode 6.

Doesn't this all must be solved by the Pro-Mystery detective ?
This looks more like a deep psicological examination than actual detective work ?

>>4055192
you need a why too, which needs deep psychological examination, or in Erika's case handy diaries

>>4055187
It's been hinted since episode 1.
And he said that episode 6 was made to confirm the doubt of those who know the truth.

And it's not like it was confirmed, everything is just hints so far.
You are just delusional.

>>4055108
>>4055118

Yay truth discussion. Something different at least.

I guess I worded things improperly in my post since I basically agree with the two of you. I wasn't trying to imply that what Beato tells is the Real Truth. At this point in time though, the Illusion of the Witch has not yet been completely broken (who, how, and why) for all games, so for the moment they are the current truth.

The real truth has me in dread though. It's guaranteed to be sad, nasty and tragic, nobility of spirit rarely exists in a serial murder case.

And yes I believe in a patch reality, but a thought. Do they branch out as individual Kakera? Ange's future might not come from EP3, but from the real Rokkenjima incident for instance.

>>4055209
If denying a theory that makes three people the same person is delusional, then I'm proud to be delusional.

Culprit pic related

>>4055211

Well, Battler obviously knows the (who, how, why), but the game hasn't officially stated it yet and he hasn't told us or denied it in Blue.

>>4055229
Goddamn it Erika, why are you such a bitch?

>>4055229
please poor girl, I hated her a lot, but she just isn't hateable anymore, the after death effect

>>4055246
Because she decapitated 5 people and laughed about it?
Because she had an EPIC LOGIC BATTLE with maria over a piece of candy?

Shkanontrice fags.

Let's make it clear. Does Shkanontrice crossdress or did the narration lie to us in all the scenes they've been in?

>>4055221
Deny it with solid shit at least, you only sound like a butthurt faggot for now.

>>4055253
that's because she wants an ABOLUTE truth in the real world so she just doesn' have to doubt anyone (her sempai who couldn't prove he wasn't ahving an affair)
And about the corpses, if she didn't win it was, as proved later, GAME OVER for her

>>4055255
ShKanontrice has 3 persona, each have their identity and way to dress.
So Shannon dresses like Shannon, Kanon dresses like Kanon and Beatrice dresses like Beatrice.

Since she is most likely a woman, it's crossdressing in Kanon's case I guess.
But it's not a disguise, they are just dressing the way they are used to.

>>4055264
She got cheated on ;_;

>>4055256
Wow, I just realized. You sound like the old pony theorists against the anti-pony theorists.

...Fuck.

>>4055280
We've entered an endless recursion of time.

>>4055275
it couldn't be proved she WAS cheated on either, she should have trusted her own boyfriend, she just had lots of proofs, which, with love, wouldn't be needed since love=trust
she was a pitiable girl

>>4055256
Solid shit? Certainly. First off the bat, there is NOTHING to foreshadow an ability for either of them to wear a disguise. That's pretty crucial, you see, because there is also nothing to foreshadow them looking anything alike. Unlike Jessitrice(I'm not advocating it, just using it as an example here), in which we know Jessica is similar to Beatrice, we have nothing to indicate that Kanon looks anything like Shannon. These two things, total lack of foreshadowing the ability for either one to wear a disguise AND total lack of foreshadowing that they look similar, make Shkanontrice very, very stupid. And yes, I know Shannon = Kanon is an old theory, but only insofar as the fact that Kanon's body vanishes. That DOES NOT mean Shannon should have the ability to disguise herself or use a body double, as none of her talents are described as such. It would be akin to the culprit being Jessica at the end by using her sniper skills, basically an ability pulled out of fucking nowhere.
In addition to lack of foreshadowing in terms of similarity and/or ability to disguise one's self, there's plausibility. Jessica and George would indeed KNOW, and I do mean KNOW, that Kanon and Shannon are the same person, seeing as George is MARRYING Shannon and Jessica lives on the island. Therefore we would have to conclude that they are either complete morons or in on it. If they are in on it that would mean the servants would be in on it as well, including Gohda. In addition to THAT, Krauss and Natsuhi would be involved too, as they controlled the servants, all the servants, tightly in order to ensure that Kinzo's death didn't get out for more than a year. No, you can't argue that they are JUST servants and Krauss and Natsuhi wouldn't care, because it's very obvious that they DO care, and they would know if two of the servants were the same person.

The theory either crumbles down, or the story does, That's how moronic it is, in the end.

>>4055274

Ok.

Next step. Does George and Jessica know/care?

>>4055010
>Gaap/Nanjo
Wait, what? I am well behind in these discussions...

>>4055045
What's the point of disguising yourself as someone else if everyone knows about you true identity?

Just think. Right now, Japan is arguing about the exact same thing that we are!

>>4055313

of all Beato's demons, Gaap is the only one without a one-winged eagle.
Second in EP5 Gaap refers to herself a GUEST.


A guest without an eagle : 3 choices : Kyrie, Hideyoshi & Nanjo (Erika doesn't count she wasn't there in Ep4)

Now remember there is a scene where Natsuhi talks to Ronove, Lia & Gaap about hiding Kinzo's body.
Ronove is Genji of course. Lia is Kumasawa, those are facts we've known for a couple of episodes.

Therefore Gaap is a guest who knows Kinzo is dead and helps to hide it.
Out of the 3 possible characters only Nanjo remains.

Those are the main clues. You have little details like Gaap having a bee sting attack which could refer to a syringe. And the fact that she's the 33rd demon. (Open your mouth and say "Trente-trois" (33) ).
The trrr sound makes your lungs vibrate so by putting a stethoscope on your lungs and asking you to say "Trente-trois" a doctor can check if the air in your lungs flows correctly. Therefore 33 refers to a doctor. Granted this a bit far fetched.

A more serious thing would be the fact that we see Gaap hiding the bodies in EP5. However we know they weren't really dead. Therefore Gaap represents someone hiding the fact that they're dead.

I actually made all these wall of text after wall of text about this theory since a few days ago to shit on the pony shippers faggots who were coming from /a/ first of all. Though it's the TRUTH and therfore I want to share it with you guys.


>>4055307
Learn to space your shit.
Also I already wrote that it isn't a DISGUISE.
Each personality is simply dressing the way they are used to.

For the others things, George probably never talked with Kanon and only saw him from afar, Jessica could know about it or she could be blindly in love.

Krauss and Natsuhi are self-centered and probably don't even look at them properly, they are only servants after all.

And Battler barely interacted with Kanon as well, and he couldn't compare him and Shannon side to side, considering they never appear in the same play.

Everything reside in the realm of possibity, nothing you stated is even close to denying this theory.

>>4055313
it's rather stupid but because
-Gaap was 'invited' to the island
-She doesn't wear the one-winged eagle
-Her heels could be syringes
was there any more?

How can this end well ?

>>4055342

>Krauss and Natsuhi are self-centered and probably don't even look at them properly, they are only servants after all.


Not him. But it is fucking hard to believe that Natsuhi and Krauss would trust a servant with DID issues. It is also fucking hard to believe considering Natsuhi hates Shannon.

Your theory also makes it seem that George is a goddamn fucking idiot, for not knowing that his girlfriend has psychological issues. It also makes it seem that Shannon is an idiot as well for not telling him.

>>4055366
Umineko will never end

>>4055343

Nanjo is Kinzo's best friend.

Kinzo is the ruler of Rokkenjima.


Gaap is Beato's best friend.

Beatrice is the other ruler of Rokkenjima.

Personally my mind is blown.

>>4055366
wait a year, 8 months depending on ep7 revelations

>>4055371
They don't know about the DID issue.
Shannon and Kanon were Kinzo's personal servants and they had nothing to say about it.

After his death, they didn't change the statu quo because they were afraid that one of the siblings would learn about Kinzo's death.

And George is a virgin retard who doesn't know how to properly interact with a girl, Shannon can manipulate him easily.

>>4055343
She hides bodies. What better way of biding bodies than hiding the fact they were dead in the first place?

>>4055391
KINZO WAS BEATRICE ALL ALONG

>>4055366
It can't possibly end well, which is why I hate Shkanontrice. At least Pony and B0MB theories had a hint of good in them. Shkanontrice is just fucking retarded.

>>4055342
Still, you ignore my point that it's never shown that they look similar to each other. That's pretty crucial, and without that the theory falls into doubts.

And "they are only servants after all"? Are you an idiot? They had an information blackout on Kinzo, you bet your ass they watched the servants, because as you said yourself, Kanon and Shannon were close to Kinzo. They were trying to cover up Kinzo's death, so the argument that they ignore the servants is very bogus.

And Battler not being able to compare them side by side is my point. I bring up the Jessica thing, if Battler never mentioned she could use a Barret fifty cal sniper rifle, it would be unfair for her to use it as a culprit. You can't argue that because he never compared them they could still be similar, because the idea is DEPENDENT on the clues, not the other way around.

In the end, Shkanontrice is akin to an asspull. They are NEVER said to be similar looking, it would indeed require half the cast to be in on it, and finally it makes for a stupid story.

>>4055391
holy shit

So Genji is Ronove, Kumasawa is Virgilia, those are obvious.
Gaap is Nanjo.
These people are close to the ruler of Rokkenjima.

So where are Shannon and Kanon? They were very close to Kinzo as well.

Yeah.

>>4055280
The ironic thing is, Episode 6 actually proved that the original, basic version of the pony theory is true.

>>4055420
Zepar and Furfur

>>4055409
ALIEN PARASITES.

We should be expectig a stupid story.

>>4055397

Natsuhi schedules everything during the family conference. Everything. She holds meetings about it. Are you asking me to believe she never once noticed that Kanon and Shannon were never in the same room and attending the meeting?

Bullshit.

>>4055425
So now there's a demon/witch character for everybody on the island?

>>4055427
the alien part was non canon Miotsukushi-hen, I find more normal that these parasytes were an ancient virus that slept in the onigafuchi

>>4055409
Simply because it isn't STATED doesn't mean that they aren't.
Demon proof and all.
And Battler barely see Kanon on the first day and has other thing to think on the second day.

What you are saying isn't a proof against it of any kind.
But there's a lot of evidences FOR this theory.

Or maybe you could solve episode 6 last riddle?

>>4055427
That doesn't account for the flaws in Shkanontrice, at all. With Higurashi, we got the culprit and the motives as early as episode 3. Shkanontrice has way too many weaknesses in it. I am not buying it.

>>4055433
important, yes

>>4055425
Zepar and Furfur only appeared in episode 6 and their roles is completely different compared to Shannon and Kanon.

But one thing for them, they were summoned using Beatrice golden broof which was broken in two.
Doesn't this make you remember something?

>>4055409
> They are NEVER said to be similar looking
But their sprites have the same hair and eye color.

>>4055416

The best thing about this is we can assume that Nanjo has a fucking flamboyant and fashionable side, probably when he was young. He probably looked like a dapper motherfucker. Or a trainwreck with no fashion sense.

Also. EP5. Gaap gives Beato sensible, practical advice about not getting killed/denied that she ignores. Nanjo gives Kinzo sensible practical advice about his health that Kinzo ignores.

>>4055425
>>4055420
Furfur
"Bestows infinite and indefensible attack power to the contractor. Bestows the courage to not fear any wall in love to the contractor.
A tutor of love who teaches the taste of flesh to herbivorous men.
Different gender from Zepar."


Zepar
"Bestows an immortal and immense defense power to the contractor. Bestows the courage to not be daunted by any wound in love to the contractor.
A hunter of love who loves herbivorous men and hunts them.
Different gender from Furfur."

>>4055409
> They are NEVER said to be similar looking
In the anime, at least, they have the exact same eye color (I think; I'd have to double check).

>>4054486
please cease and desist with your spamming on our board ano
n
ta
lk.c
om thanks in advance have a nice day many hugs from tiny loli

>>4055437

Plausibility is a valid argument.

>>4055437
If there isn't anything to indicate an ability or the fact that the people are similar, you can't have the answer depend on that. It's not a devil's proof so much as a writing convention. One again, I direct you to the 1337 SNIPAH Jessica issue. Heck, you know what? We never see Battler indicate that George and Kanon look any different from each other, that must mean they could be the same person! This is the logic you are using, and it is bogus.

Oh, and thanks for ignoring the argument which detailed the obvious fact that half the cast would have to be in on it. At least we got that cleared up.

There is no Jessitrice, Shkannontrice.

Beatrice is Manon who's real name is Maria. She's not technically on the island for the game as she hides in the hidden passage between the mansion and Kuwadorian, which goes under water. Since she's the culprit, Knox's rules are more relaxed on her.

But somehow, the murders are still related to her.

If the path passes through near these red lines, then it is possible for there to be an extra person on the island. The dungeon we see in 4 could well be underwater.

After all, Battler recognised Beatrice as looking like the one in the portrait. Would he not have recognised the same of Shannon/Kanon or Jessica?

>>4055459
Furfur confirmed for trap?

>>4055480
It's Zepar

In demonology, Zepar is a Great Duke of Hell, who tries to seduce women, and if requested by them, he can change his shape into that of their beloved man; in addition, he has the power to make women sterile. He has twenty-six legions of demons under his command. Other grimoires say that he makes women love men and brings them together in love. According to other authors, Zepar tries to seduce men by means of pederasty.

He is depicted as a soldier with red clothes and armor.

>>4055404
And it was stated in Episode 6 that Kinzo enjoyed playing pranks on his family. Remember who else enjoyed playing pranks on the family?

>>4055339
I see. Sounds crazy but I haven't read episode 5 yet so I can't say much about it.

Another thing: I alawys thought that Nanjo's relation with the Ushiromiya was weird. I mean, Kinzo is filthy rich, why would he ever bother with hiring the services of an average doctor? How did they meet?

>>4055479

This is what R07 means when he says you'd have to be "on Rokkenjima" to get the last 2 % of the riddle.

"My beloved hometown, the sweetfish river running through it.
You who seek the Golden Land, follow its path downstream and seek the key.

If you follow the river downstream, you will find a village.
In the village, look for the shore the two will tell you of."

"Look for the shore the two will tell you of" - the pasage itself goes along the shore, meaning it's under the water and off the island itself. The look for the two could be implying the "extra person" and the need to converge two characters into one without this.

>>4055468
>>4055469
I love you guys. Finally, an end to this stupidity.

>>4055339

You're presuming Gaap needs to have a human equivalent. I'm sick of people doing this. Again, it's not some Donnie Darko drug trip shit. Gaap's "vessel" doesn't have to be human, nor does she even have to have one. The Demons probably don't. Gaap's vessel could be a fucking hole in the ground somewhere anyway.

>>4055479

Let's try to defend this theory.

>Beatrice is Manon who's real name is Maria.

Manon has never appeared but has been introduced before. Possible.

>She's not technically on the island for the game as she hides in the hidden passage between the mansion and Kuwadorian, which goes under water.

That's a difficult engineering feat, but this falls on The "I wouldn't put it past Grandfather" clause. So, allowed. Before it is stated, the Kuwadorian passage is not "hidden" passsage. It has been properly foreshadowed in EP4.

>Since she's the culprit, Knox's rules are more relaxed on her.

Nope. But other than that, you just need more foreshadowing and hints to prove your theory.

>>4055502
They've been friends for a long time. Kinzo hired Nanjo as his personal physician because he trusts him.

Stating Shannon and Kanon looks similar would have been far too obvious.

And it was only Battler who saw Kanon for the first time, who know if the other didn't wonder sometime in the past.

Anyways it's not a proof at all.

>>4055494
as I've said countless times before:
In demonology, Gaap is a mighty Prince and Great President of Hell, commanding sixty-six legions of demons. He is, according to The Lesser Key of Solomon, the king and prince of the southern region of Hell and Earth, and according to the Pseudomonarchia Daemonum(False Monarchy of the Demons) the king of the western region and as mighty as Beleth, but for both he is the guide of the four kings (the others being Ziminiar, Corson and Amaymon, although some translations of The Lesser Key of Solomon consider Belial, Beleth, Asmodai and Gaap, not giving detail on the cardinal point they rule). He is said to be better conjured to appear when the Sun is in a southern zodiacal sign.

Gaap->male in the lesser key, they're ambiguous, that's all, you won't know who's the male, that's what Ryu pretended

>>4055494
Furfur is also male in classic Demonology, though. As is Gaap. I was basing my judgment on the fact that Furfur is said to be able to grant attack power, while Zepar is said to be able to grant defensive power. Just what sort of attacks are Kanon and Shannon best known for?

>>4055494
> he can change his shape into that of their beloved man
Change "man" to "woman", and FFFF

>>4055469
The "answer" of Shannon = Kanon doesn't come from the fact that they look similar though, not at all.

Your argument doesn't work, nobody ever used their personal appearance as a clue.

>>4055502

They met before Kinzo became the head, and stayed connected till the end.

Since it's implied that Kinzo was a bit spineless in his youth, Nanjo might have been the flamboyant wingman who drags him parties and cocaine dens, hoping to get him laid. Kinzo was a romantic idiot though and he only waited for his One True Love.

>>4055521

It's a silly theory with a little reasoning behind it. Relax. Besides, I don't think this has any plot shattering consequences yet.

>>4055521
Ronove has blue eyes
Virgilia has blue eyes
Their vessels are humans

The stakes have red eyes
The siesta sisters have red eyes
Their vessels are objects

Gaap's eyes are blue.

>>4055546
So, Zepar confirmed for Shannon?

>>4055523

Given the talk of shores and rivers in the Epitath, it's extremely likely and has been foreshadowing. Again, R07 also says you'd have to be on the island, meaning it's probably somehow related to the Island's structure - and the main "Structure" of the Island is where it meets the sea.

Manon being Beatrice makes sense because of the "Maria" theory. If Beatrice's third vessel was called "Maria" then it explains the book and why Kinzo didn't want her to be called that.

The idea of an extra person somehow getting onto the island has been pushed since the beginning. The "other servants" has also come up at least once in the game.

We know there is a passage to Kuwadorian, and probably an underground dungeon. If the Island is shaped like this, both the passage and dungeon could actually be underwater, thus not on the island to begin with. If the person limit only applies to "number of people on screen(island) at once" then we can have her come on.

It could also solve the riddle of 4 - Battler was the only one left on the Island, but Beatrice was "there" as in the general vicinity, and was able to kill him somehow remotely(like shooting a gun from under the grill of the passage). If Under the island, or underwater doesn't count as On the island, it solves a lot.

It bypasses the idea of Beatrice parasailing down after the first person dies.

>>4055560
The goats also have red eyes, so if that's the case it actually rules out Gohda as being their "vessel". I guess they really do represent fire/the explosion.

>>4055571
It completely and utterly destroy knox, or any logic for that matter.

>>4055548

So the fact of the matter is "Kanon looks like Shannon" is not a valid clue nor does it hint to them being the same, nor was it ever presented.

...

Look. Just fucking drop the crossdressing and go for the view that the narration lied to us in every scene that took place. Just do it.

>>4055580
The goats are "fire", pretty obvious.

>>4055560

You know, we're never explicitly told that Genji is Ronove's vessel. We're told they have some kind of a history together - where has a vessel had a relationship with it's fantasy side archetype? For example you don't see Sakutaro playing with the Sakutaro toy. Genji could just be Genji, he might have his own fantasy side powers like Shannon and Kanon do. Also the new demons might not be "Fantasy equivalents" of Shannon and Kanon just because they're twins and it ties in with the Traptrice theory. Shannon and Kanon have fantasy side powers and abilities so it doesn't make a lot of sense. They're their own vessels. They could be "Related" to Shannon and Kanon somehow, but it doesn't mean they are. Also it would mean they have some importance with Beatrice, which they don't seem to, if that thoery is true.

Also, Beatrice has blue eyes - and read this.

So basicaly:
George is gay and Jessica is a dyke ALL IN THE SAME TIME.
All the inhabitants of the island are either retards or all of them have something to hide.
All the guests in the family conference need glasses.

Am i right so far ?

>>4055590

Kanon = Shannon as a theory was presented because of the fact that they never appear in front of the detective at the same time.

Or because their relationship is extremely weird and very symbiotic.

Or because Kanon body keep on fucking disappearing.

Or because they live in the same room, sleep in the same bed, and only one of them can have their love.

Or because there's fucking 17 people on the island, including Erika.

And I'm missing a lots of things.

>>4055548
And here we are, ladies and gentlemen. The Shkanontrice theory at it's base. They don't NEED to look similar to disguise as three different characters, we don't NEED clues to indicate this, we can just BELIEVE in it.

Oh wow, you guys are too much...

>>4055610

>>4055618
No. everything is correct

>>4055622
ShKanontrice at its base is this though
>>4055618

You delusional faggots are too funny.
Well we will see who will laugh in 8 months.
Your tears will be delicious.

>>4055623
So Battler fell in love with rules?

Love story of the century right here, guys.

>>4055610
1. Beatrice has blue eyes because Battler likes girls with blue eyes, and thus she was given that trait.
2. The statement of Beatrice not actually being "one individual woman" is explained a bit by Episode 6. The Beatrice we knew actually consisted of two Beatrices; the original Beatrice, of the legend of the witch, and the Beatrice who was created to love Battler. Those two Beatrices actually exist separately in Episode 6, with the latter Beatrice being dress-Beatrice and the former Beatrice being skirt-Beatrice.

>>4055586

>Knox's 1st. It is forbidden for the culprit to be anyone not mentioned in the early part of the STORY!

Not defied if Beatrice is not the culprit. Also I believe Manon is mentioned early on, just doesn't appear.

>Knox's 3rd. It is forbidden for hidden passages to EXIST!

Knox's 3rd was originally "more than one". We have one hidden passage, anyway, and that's the one I'm using for this theory. I'm just specifying it's location.

>Knox's 8th. It is forbidden for the case to be resolved with clues that are not PRESENTED!!

Presented by the heavy meantion of water in the epitath, the structure of the island, and it could be possible a clue towards the person limit is found in the use of the red. The apparent existence of an extra person could be taken as a "clue" too.

Apart from that I don't see where it applies.

>>4055618
Still, the issue here is that you are using it to solve the issues in episode 6, instead of coming up with why it exists. You have the master key to open the lock, but you didn't construct the key. While the key as a whole opens any door, the parts which make up the key don't fit!

Closed room in episode 6.
Erika make a closed room with Battler inside.
Kanon come to save him and enter, but never get out.
Erika comes and search everywhere, without finding anything.
It's stated that Kanon isn't in the room.
Yet he didn't go out.
And precised that neither alive nor dead.

Solve it without ShKanon, do it.

>>4055610

Yep. She's a combination of the Legend of the Witch of Rokkenjima, Kinzo's memories, and the wishes of a person Battler promised something to 6 years ago.

Can someone clarify what happened in EP6 with the Beatos? Did anyone state that Battler messed something up?

What EP is that from?

>>4055646
Well, one of the rules of the island is "Without love, [it] cannot be seen".

>>4055659
I already wrote lots and lots of wall of text about it, won't do it again.
There's plenty of evidences in episode 1-5.

Just look for the previous threads in easymodo.

>>4055647

Uh, beatoexplained2.jpg

It's not necessarily saying that Beatrice is multiple people. Thus that the Beatrice that appears is a personification of the rules of the game, which were probably created by "Core" Beatrice, present in both Meta and Piece.

>>4055678
> Did anyone state that Battler messed something up?
Besides the whole screwup with Erika and the way he treated Moetrice?

>>4055637

Gentleman's agreement.

I will come here and admit defeat if Shkanontrice turns out to be true.

>>4055653
it doesn't matter the original, but either way it's referring to hidden doors in closed rooms, so ok

>>4055683
The more Umineko is 'explained' , the stupider the story becomes.

>>4055678
> What EP is that from?
Episode 1.

>>4055667
fucking faggots, when will you realize it's all magic?

>>4055694

In regards to Moetrice's existence I mean.

>>4055560
Dlanor has yellow eyes.

What now?

You know, there was something bugging me about episode 1. What if the culprits are Shannon and Kanon? This thing would check out.

Shannon faked her death, possibly with the help of doctor Nanjo and Hideyoshi (though this one is unlikely, since Nanjo stayed alive long enough to realize he would be killed too). She dressed up a similar body in her clothes, put a ring on it, and vanished into thin air.

Then Kanon, who was obviously in on it, helped Shannon kill Hideyoshi and Eva. Shannon did kill them and stayed in the room, and when Genji confirmed the door was locked, Kanon let her out. They probably worked out a trick to set the chain on, since they have worked there for quite some time.

Kanon's death was also faked, with the help of Kumasawa, who "witnessed" the whole thing. The person running away really might have been Kanon himself.

Then when the group split, they murdered those in the room downstairs, fooling Maria (this would be incredibly easy). I guess this is the part when Nanjo would help them, and get duped.

Maria probably placed the letter when no one was looking. I mean, Beatrice asked her to do it, right?

And when finally Natsuhi ran out, she was shocked to see one of her servants alive. Now, both of them might have died, or one of them. It does not matter anyway, since soon enough the explosion would kill them all.

>>4055680
>>Without love, [it] cannot be seen

Sayo is Shannon true name.
In phonetic, it's written Syayo.

Joshua is Kanon's tue name.
His name can also be read Yoshiya, or Yosiya in phonetic.

Without love it can't be seen.
Ai is love in japanese, ai = "i"

Syayo + "i" = Yosiya.

>>4055715
Her vessel is.. an animal?
The cat that broke the vase, probably.

>>4055711
Ah. Well, his screwup was expecting Moetrice to be exactly like the Beatrice he knew, though that can be forgiven as he really couldn't have known that would happen. Featherine states in red that it's impossible to revive Beatrice as she was. And even if 1000 years passed, as did for the Beatrice we knew (though said 1000 years actually took place within only six), there's no guarantee that Moetrice would turn out exactly the same way.

Note that Moetrice eventually does regain the memories of her former self, but her personality at the end still seems a little unstable (i.e. switching between troll-mode and moe mode).

>>4055682
Sorry, but the argument OH I SAID TONS OF STUFF LOOK IT UP FAGGOT isn't exactly a valid one.
There is nothing to indicate that Kanon(or Shannon, or Beatrice, take your pick) would be able to shuffle around and sucessfully trick everyone. Yes, I know you want to counter with WELL HE'S NOT DISGUISING HIMSELF, but even then we would need a clue that he looks similar to Shannon to accept the fact that he could pull it off. The reliable point of view is Battler's, so you can't strictly use Kanon and Shannon's conversation between each other as evidence. We need SOMETHING to indicate that the same person could fool everyone, and quite frankly there is nothing to indicate that.

>>4055715
Dlanor represents a set of rules and the enforcing of those rules.

>>4055715
She has no VESSEL. She's just a KID.

>>4055716
You can pretty much set up any character as the culprit in EP1 since there is almost no red.

>>4055752
So Dlanor is like Beatrice?

>>4055720
How is Syayo + i = Yosiya? I don't get it.

>>4055769
It's called an anagram my friend.

>>4055667
Kanon didnt go out, his body did.

>>4055747
There's nothing that state that they can't either.

I personally think that R07 thought that it would be too obvious if they talked about their appearances.

Anyways what you are going on about isn't a PROOF, absence of a statement isn't a proof.
It's not something solid.
As a detective, using simple clues and shits, nothing in the game can disprove Shannon = Kanon.

>>4055769
anagrams magic

>>4055757

The deciding point is what happens during the second twilight. My theory assumes something of a Kinzo solution in that the culprit was actually inside and someone let him or her out. It's the only way this could work, and only with Kanon, since everybody else would become suspicious immediately.

Also it is no coincidence that Jessica and George stayed alive until the end. Even more, why is Shannon and Kanon in the Golden Land anyway? Only those that survived until the end can reach that place.

>>4055769
Sya yo i. Play with the letters, faggot.

>>4055782
There was nobody in the room.
Or do you think dead walk.

>>4055761
Beatrice is not quite like Dlanor. Beatrice's rules can be twisted and molded into different shapes, but it will still revert to its original form when solved, like a Rubix Cube. Dlanor (and her Knox Rules) are much more rigid and cannot change shape, and are needed if you're to want to solve something as a mystery.

>>4055783
The issue is the writing convention. Think of all the games as a mystery novels, but Sherlock Battler lives and catches Beatrice at the end. Unmasks her to reveal Kanon or Shannon. It's unfair to reveal they are all the same person, seeing as everyone there should be able to notice, as detailed earlier. Plasibility kills the shit out of it, in addition to lack of clues to indicate the capacity to fool everyone into thinking that the same person is three distinct entities. It's an asspull.

>>4055807
Who said Umineko was following these conventions?
Remember the NO DINE NO KNOX.

>>4055797
isnt BATORA inside ?

>>4055794

And one other point. During their short stay in Kinzo's study, Nanjo or, possibly, Maria placed that letter right when Jessica and George went near the portrait.

>>4055816

Counterpoint.

Through Battler's thoughts in EP5, Ryukishi was asking us to trust him. He was saying that it could be solved.

I was just looking through the red text from Episode 5 and I came onto a strange thought: What if the first twilight didn't actually happen? There's no red text that confirms that George, Jessica, Genji, Rosa, and Maria all died on the first twilight, just that they died. There's also no confirmation of their time of death. If the bomb theory is true, then they died in the blast, and thus their corpses never really were moved. Because they were blown to pieces and scattered.

So it's safe to think that in Episode 5 and 6, there is no murder, with the exception of the finale. The timeline deviates in those two episodes to prevent any sort of murder from occurring for some reason.

>>4055818
Kanon entered after Battler left.

>>4055843

Actually, Erika decapitates the "corpses" in Episode 6 to make sure they stay dead. If they are dead, then it should not be a problem, right?

>>4055716
>>4055794
>>4055826

Good theory. Why would there be a servant wide murder conspiracy though?

>>4055843
Note that Krauss was indeed killed immediately after talking to Natsuhi on the phone, however.

>>4055864
Pent up MY LIFE IS SHIT rage?

>>4055843
Erika is the murderer in ep 6.

>>4055840
It can be solved.
People have been calling the Shannon = Kanon from the first fucking game after all.

>>4055843

Someone finds the gold and announces it to the family. Why are the deaths faked then?

>>4055851
simple.
Kanon didnt saved Battler.
He was killed by him.

>>4055881

Too passionate to be the only reason. I think Nanjo was Kinzo's designated heir and he's going around killing people with the help of the servants. He always ends up betrayed though. Maybe he found out that Krauss lost the Ushiromiya fortune and is frantically searching the island for the gold since it's the only wealth left

>>4055893
Just like in Episode 6, the family probably got pissed at Erika and decided to troll her with a murder mystery. And just like in Episode 6, things didn't go as planned. (Though in the case of Episode 6, it was Erika's fault that things didn't go as planned.)

>>4055913

How to make the body disappear though?

I propose roid rage Battler carried him out. Death by strangulation and neck breaking maybe, so not leave blood.

>>4055913
That may work, if somebody else had been hiding in the room with Battler from the start, before Erika sealed it, and then put the chain lock in place after Kanon was killed and Battler escaped. Unless there is some red text to prevent that?

>>4055917

How about Hideyoshi? He seems pretty dead.

>>4055840
Your entire reasoning is that they never stated outright that Shannon and Kannon looks similar, right?

In the novel, it couldn't pass.
But you forgot one thing, this is a VISUAL novel.

The visuals are there for a reason, the fact that they look so similar should be a hint of its own.

Normal writing convention only work for normal books.

>>4055913
No, Kanon did save Battler.
And Battler didn't kill anyone.

>>4055932
Only Kanon, Erika and Battler went in or out of the room.

>>4055943
> And just like in Episode 6, things didn't go as planned.
And you forgot Krauss, who also was killed for real.

>>4055929
>>4055932
we are getting somewhere gentleman

>>4055944
Oh please, that's not an argument and you know it. And in my opinion they look nothing alike.

>>4055932
Erika searched inside the room, nobody existed in it.
AND the others position was confirmed, couldn't be anyone.

Except if you think the mysterious killer x exist.

>>4056001
No one could do that.
The position of everyone was fixed, with the red text.

>>4055993
I didn't say it was an argument, just a small clue.
And it's true that a VN is a different media than a novel, like it or not.

>>4055972
If I remember correctly, it was only stated that, between the time Erika sealed the door and the time Battler left the room, only three people entered; Battler, Erika, and Kanon. If someone else had been in the room to begin with...

>>4055997
The closet was the only place Erika did not check until the very end. If both Battler and the other person had been in the closet -- a walk-in closet, mind you -- then it would work, if I'm not mistaken.

>>4056009
Was it stated in red that all those who were in the room George was in did not leave that room?

>>4056020
Dude, if we take the VN's art seriously, then Satako would be muhammad ali. Not buying that argument, in the least.

>>4056036
Wouldn't work; the person would have had to have entered the guest room in the main mansion before Erika sealed the door, and thus they could not have been in the guesthouse room at the time the six people were stated in red to be inside it.

>>4056021
Yeah but who?
Everyone was either in the next room (stated in red) or busy being DEAD.

The only way it's possible for Battler to have been rescued is for someone who has both the name "Kanon" and the name of one of the six people in the first room to leave the first room, go into the guest room Battler was in, allow Battler out, lock the chain lock, enter the closet, and then somehow lose the name "Kanon".

>>4056049
Battler didnt killed anyone
Putting them in near death is another story

If we put strangulation (>>4055929) and then hiding in a closet, its pretty much covered.

>>4055794
>why is Shannon and Kanon in the Golden Land anyway? Only those that survived until the end can reach that place.
Look at the end of the Epitaph and the witch's record for the end of EP1.

>>4055915

It could be true. I only showed how it was possible, and not the reason.

>>4056042
You must have doubts about Shannon = Kanon by now, right?

May be "bad writing" that we never got a statement that they look similar but you can't deny all the evidences for it.

You know it's such bullshit that R07 says we have all the tools to solve the mystery in 5 but then in 6 drops the bombshell that there are only 17/16 people on the Island. Nobody's going to "presume" that without being told so I doubt anyone had the correct theory.

>>4056079
That's stupid.
Kanon didn't go out of the room, stated in red.

Kanon WASN'T in the room when Erika broke the closed room, stated in red too.

>>4056094
I was seeing lots of theories around Shannon = Kanon since the second game though.

>>4056099
Erika searched and then said that in red.
Learn2notreadATLAS

>>4056094
> Nobody's going to "presume" that without being told
Among the first 100 fan letters Ryukishi07 received about Higurashi, one of them postulated the existence of mind-affecting parasites. So don't think that people won't take the statement "There are no more than 18 people" and ask "what if the total is indeed less?"

>>4056094
The bombshell being that there are only 16, or the bombshell being that the total is both 16 _and_17?

>>4056110
It doesn't change anything you know, red text is red text.

>>4056107

That was to make room for an extra person, though. Skannontrice seems to be entirely new.

>>4056134
Red text came a little late im afraid.

>>4056099

How about Kanon's corpse?

>>4056099
IM TALKING ABOUT HIS BODY
Kanon can fuck himself he already gave me enough headaches

I like how red text is used to state truths that cover up lies.

>>4056182
Red text includes bodies as well, Erika made sure of it.

>>4056137
If you can accept ShKanon, why not ShKanontrice?

>>4056205

So by Red Text, Kanon's corpse was not moved out of the room?

>>4056212
Yes.

>>4056205
She said that 3 people with the names Kannon, Erika, Battler ENTERED the room possessing 3 bodies of their own.
Yet she didnt said Kannon possessing a body of his own was not there.

>>4055720
Nerdrage will set in if that's anywhere near accurate.

>>4056226
The only real problem with it is that "Syayo" would be "Shayo", not "Sayo".

Correct me if I'm wrong, but can't Sayo be read as "34"?

>>4056295
Not using the kanji that make up her name.

inb4 beato is good guy trying to make battler see his family was evil and killed each other for gold.