/jp/ - Otaku Culture

>>40305612
Stop being a cheapskate and apply for real Japanese courses.

>>40305624
that's a no then, thanks anon

you should probably use anki to get started but the people who suggest you just learn the first 2000 or so words and then start reading are probably on the right track. anki can become an inescapable quagmire of learning and re-learning cards if you set your mind on memorizing 10,000 words.

>>40305624
heh
good one

>>40305612
No, i used kanji tree app and it worked perfectly for me
>>40305624
NG

>>40305612

Anki is good for learning general and basic meanings of the most common kanji, but to actually learn Japanese language and even words and expressions alone it's not a good tool. You'll miss out a lot of nuance and alternative meanings and ways to use words by just grinding anki or some other kanji learning app.

Vocabulary, grammar, and listening experience are more important than grinding

>>40305612
>>40305612
People were able to learn japanese before the creation of computer, internet and Anki app.
Must has been way harder though.

But don't forget that Anki is just one tool in order to help you memorize. There are others useful tools.
And with just Anki you won't be able to actually understanding and speaking japanese.

Anki is good to learn Vocabulary and Kanji based on my experience.
However, using Anki with a bad deck won't make you learn much.

It was one of the most useful resource I had to learn japanese for free at the beginning.
Especially those two decks : Kanji Damage and Japanese Core 10k (the one with image sound and sentences)
But if you are going to use Anki be prepared to stick to it everyday for a long time.

It took me four to five months to complete Kanji Damage. I had to try two times before being able stick to my daily share of cards everyday two hours a day until the end of the deck.
For Core 10k, I went up to 8k in more than a year and half and I stopped when I went to Japan. But just lightly reading/reviewing words, listening a native japanese pronouncing them, and reading one or two sentences when those words are used was more than enough to give me a good foundation to speak japanese after.

I can only say good luck if want to learn japanese.

If you're willing to read every day, you don't need anki.

But honestly, in terms of time investment, it makes no sense not to use it. It's 5-10 minutes a day, and basically ensures you'll encounter every word you know again around the limit of your memory.

>>40305612
The established trend is doing 10k cards with anki, benefiting from it. Then proceeding to publicly and frequently say that it never helped you and it was a waste of time.

>>40305612
using anki too much and not going beyond it is a waste of time

>>40305612
trying to learn Japanese, period, is a waste of time

>>40310229
Whatever you say mr 5 years of dual subbed anime

>>40305612
if you're autistic enough, you can grind it out to N1. Then you will spend the rest of your time bragging about it to EOPs because you're not actually fluent to make use of the language like gambs

>>40310298
いい加減にしろ
おバカめ

ive already memorized both hiragana and katakana and currently doing the anki decks with the updated 2k/6k something deck
but some anon from past few threads that i need to pair it with a grammar book
any recs?

>>40310372
ditch core decks and replace them with ankidrone starter pack.
>grammar books
see https://tatsumoto.neocities.org/blog/learning-grammar.html
usually grammar and vocabulary are learned in parallel.

>>40310372

Tae Kim teaches all the must know basic grammar and dips a bit into some intermediate stuff as well. You should read his stuff, start consuming content like news, manga etc. until what you've learned has more or less become ingrained into you, with of course rereading his guide when you see something you know you've studied once but can't remember exactly.

As for grammar books, I recommend どんなときどう使う日本語表現文型辞. It covers a lot of grammar all the way from N5 to N1, with essential expressions having explanations also in English, Chinese and Korean. It's a thick book, so it'll last long. Other books I can recommend are 新完全マスター文法 books. You can get all of them through Amazon.

>>40310351
Did you pick that up from watching a 4 minute segment of shin chan 90 times until it clicked with the English subs?

あなたより日本語　知ってる
のがほうがいい
ボケ

>>40310553

そうです
やりました

Truth is, method doesn’t matter. Individual drive and autism does. Doth,Jazzy and 4bc were going to do well due to their work ethic, they also went hard on anki.

you can make it without anki, it's up to you whether you want to use it. the most important part is being consistent and having fun.

I'm new and I don't get it, why does the kun reading have the following "hiro.i, hiro.garu/geru, hiro.maru/meru°" for 広?
I mean, which is it and what do the dots and "/ " mean?

>>40315084
Also should one aim for both on and kun remembrance?

>>40315154
i would recommend learning vocabs instead of kanji.

Don’t bother, by the time you learn it, Japan will just be America 2.0

>>40305624
Or maybe start reading?
A book, vn, ln, manga, anything just start fucking reading.

>>40305612
if you live in japan and interact with the language daily, then you don't need anki. if you are stuck in your room, half the world away, then an SRS is probably your best bet for starting out.

Might as well ask here:
What's the best ALTERNATIVE to ANki when it comes to learning vocabulary? I'm reading VNs practically every day but I still regularly stumble over vocabs I should know. I've tried using Anki several times, made my own mining decks, but I just does not work for me.

>>40315084
The dot seperates the reading of the kanji from the rest, the slash just idicates an alternitive form. In your example "hiro" is the reading for 広, hiro.i is an adjective (i-endings are usually adjectives), the other are verbs.

>>40305612
It's the other way around, anki grind is a waste of time that makes you feel like you are progressing but all you are doing is memorizing mostly worthless out of context words
Learn basic grammar, kana and radicals and you can start reading within less than a week, even if it takes you hours for a single paragraph, apply yourself and you can get to N4 and be better than almost all professional JP to EN media translators in less than 3 months
Fall for the anki trap and you can spend literal years without any progress whatsoever

>>40316304
>I'm reading VNs practically every day but I still regularly stumble over vocabs I should know.
Keep reading stuff until you stop forgetting the words, retard.

>>40316362
Yes, this is exactly my problem. I keep forgetting words because I'm a retard, I've been reading for about 1.5 years now. I'm even learning to write kanji to remember them better and don't just stare at random scribbles when they're out of context.

>>40316405

That happens with everyone, time varies per person. You'll see a new word, check it's meaning, forget it, see it again and remember you've seen it once, check it again, repeat for many times. Even after you think you've learned the word's meaning you'll likely see new forms of it and in different contexts where the meaning doesn't fit your original idea of what it meant, causing you to check again to see what it means. This process repeats for a long time, you shouldn't hurry with trying to learn words, it'll come naturally over time as you consume more and more content and see it used in various situations.

For example

>溶ける to melt; to thaw; to fuse​ 2. to dissolve
>溶く to dissolve (paint); to scramble (eggs); to melt (metal, etc.); to mix (water with flour, etc.)

>>40316405
>He thinks 1.5 years is a lot.
Cute, you will read with a dictionary in hand for at least 3 years, 5+ if brainlet, less if turbo autismo.
But I can tell you're new because you worry about kanji, that's not what you should be worrying about, trust me learning kanji comes naturally, no need to rush it.
What you should be worrying about is the bottomless rabbit hole of implied nuance, which is hell because it's impossible to make a dictionary about them due to being context reliant.
Sure, you may sometimes find a grammar guide with extremely basic examples for example those telling you ね at the end of a sentence sorta turns it into a rhetorical question, or that it sounds childish, or that there's differences between そなのか and そうか or whatever the guides say these days.
Yeah that's just the basics, you will learn what sounds feminine or masculine, that's a bit easier when it's just figuring out the differences between 俺 and 私 as the dictionary says right? Wrong, word choices, conjugation, general wording, 終助詞, sentence order, what you don't say, and more, all affect the nuance of the sentence.
What sounds masculine, what sounds feminine, what sounds haughty, what sounds like agreeing by going with the flow, what comes off as rude even when you say polite words, what comes off as friendly even if you are insulting someone, what sounds like holding your ground in the talk, what sounds like conceding, what sounds like not caring, what sounds like wanting to be left alone, what sounds extremely chunni (without using fancy words or being blatant), what sounds sarcastic/mocking, all this is a bottomless pit that is loosely defined and context reliant and you don't really "get" it until you do, and being N1 has nothing to do with it because I have seen N1s that don't get this stuff or outright deny it's a thing.
Fun fact, not "getting" this is how most people that speak japanese as their first language can easily spot gaijins, it's very hard to explain but once you "get" it you can easily spot people that don't.
This nuance is important because it's from where most of the character nuance comes from and what gets completely lost by MTL, and honestly I very rarely see translators that can translate this properly if at all, not only because it's harder to actually show this nuance in english, but also most "professional" media translators seem to barely know the language and mostly guess, if they aren't just publishing edited MTL.

>>40316632

>I have seen N1s that don't get this stuff or outright deny it's a thing.

I feel like passing N1 should be a point where one recognizes how much he already knows Japanese, while also recognizing how there is still so much he doesn't know. Keigo, expressions, ability to speak Japanese, all the thing you listed etc. there is still so much to learn, it really is a lifetime process.

N1 in the end is just a test, an artificial standard that reflects if one has passed the test or not. Naturally you need to know Japanese fairly well to pass it, but you can also fluke pass it, or be lacking in some other fundamental skill that isn't measured in the test like speaking. If one feels like having passed N1 makes them a god, they likely aren't that focused in continuing to learn the language but are rather focused on their own ego, as in ''look at me, I passed N1''

>>40316632
I actually think I have a better grasp on nuance than vocabulary. In the scope of my experience of course.
The reson why I'm so "hung up" with kanji/vocab is that it prevents me from reading more fluently, which in turn would improve basically every aspect.

>honestly I very rarely see translators that can translate this properly if at all
Being a translator myself (yeah, I know), I came to terms with the fact that you simply cannot actually "translate" japanese into english, you can only try to keep the intended meaning intact as good as possible. Most of the nuance will still be lost in translation because the vocabulary simply doesn't exist for it.

>>40316740
I don't disagree, more often than not I see N1 people acting like they know everything and refusing to learn any further.
Which is annoying because it's just them denying all that stuff exists, but given for years now I have been able to straight up read the original text instead of having to deal with translations and localizations, it doesn't bother me anymore.
>>40316774
You can't really rush the kanji learning process, if you cram into your brain more than you can remember you will just forget it soon after, which seems to be the initial problem you mention here: >>40316304
My tip is to learn the words as words and not as kanji, this is hard to explain but for example don't remember 私 as "I/me" and the entire list of on'yomi or kun'yomi readings, that's a pointless waste of brain memory that you are very rarely (if ever) going to use and the real reason anki is a noob trap.
Instead remember 私 as 私 with as few connections to english as possible, that's the trick, don't learn by translating meaning, learn things as they already are.
It's one of those things that are hard to explain, but once you "get" them, it makes the language much easier.

>>40316871

>N1 people acting like they know everything and refusing to learn any further.

If I had to poorly visualize how I see the learning path of Japanese, it'd go like this (each step having low-mid-advanced stages)

Elementary
Beginner
Intermediate
Advanced (N1 would fit advanced-mid I think)
. (power gap)
Proficient
.
.
.
Fluent

>>40316871
unrelated to all this but agreed grammar and nuance is more important than kanji, just use a dictionary for the latter and try figure out meanings from context and using the listed definitions as pointers to triangulate the meaning instead of using them as actual definitions
guess that's what "learn things as they already are instead of translating" means

>>40316923
Now you realize you only start to notice nuance and see the depth of what you don't know around early intermediate.
And now you realize almost all professional translators working on game/anime/manga/LNs/VNs are barely N4, which by this visualization is probably around high elementary at best.
And now you realize people use MTL as a "good enough" alternative, which wouldn't even qualify as elementary.
And now you realize those same people are the ones complaining >weeb stuff is too poorly written and there's no point to learning japanese.
>>40316959
More or less yeah, it's just easier to "triangulate" the meaning the more you read.

>>40316632
>what sounds like agreeing by going with the flow, what comes off as rude even when you say polite words, what comes off as friendly even if you are insulting someone, what sounds like holding your ground in the talk, what sounds like conceding, what sounds like not caring, [...]
Autistic people will struggle with this even in their native language

bump

WaniKani worked better for me.

>>40326583
https://tatsumoto.neocities.org/blog/faq.html#what-are-the-downsides-of-using-wanikani

>>40326875
Those points are fairly inaccurate and show a lack of understanding of how it works in the long term. It is only slow early on when you have not amassed a number of kanji or vocabulary. I was doing 400-500 reviews each day about halfway through the levels. I says that it would take you 18 months l, but people like me going at max speed finish in less than a year.

I paid half price until I hit level 60 in a year, so I spent about $60 dollars. I then paid $60 to make my account a lifetime account to continue doing all my reviews and burning all my items. $120 to gamify the entire process to learn 2000 kanji and 6000 vocabulary is meaningless in there grand scheme of things. Some people learn differently than others. For example, I thrive in classroom settings for things like CS and Statistics classes rather than self-learning because of the classroom structure and pressure of homework and tests. WaniKani worked better than Anki ever did for me for several years. And just like CS and Stat classes, I can take the foundation that I've learned to more complicated things effectively on my own.

It's also untrue that WaniKani doesn't teach you how to reach kanji and vocabulary with multiple readings. In fact, that's exactly what it does, and it gives you the ability to read vocabulary out in the wild that you've never seen before because you've learned the general definitions and multiple readings for kanji. It's true that the have their own mnemonics, but they are mostly useful to initially learn. Once you are at my level you no longer remember or rely on the mnemonics and just identify kanji and vocabulary readings and definitions naturally at quick glances.

Can some people learn with just Anki? Sure. But there are certain aspects about WaniKani that address some very human issues with language learning (motivation, habit-building, pressure, gamifying the process, and community if that's needed). Most people will quit learning Japanese because it's hard, irrespective of what method they use, but WaniKani is useful for many people. I just really hate the dogmatic beliefs about learning Japanese, although there are many useless methods, but WaniKani isn't one of them.

>>40327032
> finish in less than a year.
still not as good as Kanjidamage, RTK or KanjiTransition, right?
>I paid
Again, I paid nothing.
>WaniKani worked better than Anki
You can't use WaniKani for learning any subject though.
>It's also untrue that WaniKani doesn't teach you how to reach kanji and vocabulary with multiple readings.
It does teach them, but the point is that it does it the wrong way. Vocabulary should be learned by making targeted sentence cards (TSCs).
>Can some people learn with just Anki? Sure.
With just anki? No. With anki you can only memorize a bunch of stuff, but to learn a lanugage you also have to 'acquire' everything you've learned, and in order to do that you have to practice in the wild, e.g. read a real book, watch raw anime, read manga, etc.
>Most people will quit learning Japanese because it's hard
Only with shitty methods. Besides, you can pay for wanikani and quit anyway. Wanikani is just a fancy SRS with limited functionality.

>>40327120
RTK doesn't even come close to teaching you those things. And you want to criticize WaniKani's mnemonics while bringing up Kanjidamage? And we are talking specifically learning Japanese, not other subjects. Several of my friends are medical doctors and used Anki for the MCAT and their Step exams, so I'm not denying its usefulness. The fancy SRS is sometimes the deciding factor for some people to learn kanji and vocabulary, which is all I am saying. I still have to use books and other resources for learning grammar and listening/speaking.

>>40305612
Anki is boring as fuck. Just read manga and translate the Kanji; that way you're learning the kanji in context and doing something you enjoy at the same time.

>>40327163
I don't recommend specifically RTK, but RTK can be used in combination with other techniques together with Anki to do everything Wankikani does, and more. KanjiDamage is just another alternative I gave. Its mnemonics are better than wanikani's and you can tweak them if you want in your Anki deck.
>The fancy SRS is sometimes the deciding factor for some people to learn kanji and vocabulary
Wankikani doesn't even teach kanji and vocabulary efficiently, and it's not free in all meanings of this word.

>>40327493
Nobody ever said it was free. The only thing RTK does is teach kanji, no readings, no real vocabulary. No shit you can combine it with anything to ultimately do more than WaniKani. I can also combine WaniKani with plenty of other resources to ultimately do more than Anki by itself. So what exactly was your point?

I know this is /jp/, so many of you are autistic and don't really have a grasp of human behavior. The point I have made since the beginning is that there are aspects of WaniKani that can have tangible effects of people's learning due to gamification that can lead to habit-forming that helps people follow through with learning kanji and vocabulary. I never said it was the end-all-be-all for learning Japanese. Some people are highly motivated to go to the gym because they pay a fee, and that's a big part of what makes them go and continue to go as they build the habit of working out. There are certain conveniences that are included that help them continue and not quit. Some people make friends with other like-minded individuals at the gym which motivates and keeps them accountable. Same with WaniKani. Plenty of people that had less success have found WaniKani to work.

>>40327868
Wanikani is utter shit that doesn't give you any advantages over an Anki user. You don't have to do RTK to learn kanji, do KanjiTransition instead. To learn vocab make TSCs. Everything can be done with Anki alone.
Gamification is just a marketing trick for zoomers with 3-minutes attention span.

Learning Japanese has always been free. And it will always be free. Don't allow retarded Service as a Software Substitute garbage scam you.

>>40327951
Thank you, random /jp/ autist..I'm sure you're much more knowledgeable than the researchers and experts on pedagogy and motivation in education. I've already mentioned the various aspects that people find beneficial. If you don't think they are for you, that's perfectly fine. Thankfully the rest of us don't have to live our lives based on what you personally find valuable.

>>40305612
Why not use lingodeer and duolingo? I like duo for when I'm taking a shit break and want to drag it out as long as i can.

>>40305612
Anki just helps accelerate the progress, you’ll learn faster with anki than without it

>>40328024
if you need meme dopamine tricks like gamification to keep studying something instead of it being inherently gratifying then you are ngmi

>>40305612
>anki drone
no

>>40328027
Just use the one you find the most enjoyable. You'll learn faster that way.

>>40328118
I've already finished WaniKani and can certainly read better than the majority of people that use Anki, because the majority of people quit through any medium or method. I created ways of gamification to help me finish mldo my coursework and exams that helped me finish my PhD. But thanks for the take on "making it."

>>40328150
imagine being so delusional

>>40305612
I find it extremely amusing that Anki is the tool of choice for both autistic anime enthusiasts and medical students.

Of course, that is assuming those aren't one and the same.

>>40328397
STEM and autism go hand in hand

>>40328397

What do medical students use it for, learning body parts?

>>40328463
spaced repetition is the final form of memorization studying. my roommate was a bio major and I introduced it to her, said it was lifechanging

>>40328397
>>40328736
I use it to pass my certification exams
t. Network Engineer student

>>40328463
medical students have to juggle and memorize a ton of bullshit applied in different contexts
quite similar to kanji readings
but unlike dictionary kanji readings, medical students actually end up using most of the stuff they memorize with anki

>>40328463
Anatomy is a big one, probably the biggest in terms of sheer memorization.
But also chemical structures, cell types, and (sometimes) practicing likely issues given a set of signs & symptoms. Just a couple I've seen.

>>40328775
Much like Japanese elementary schoolers, I believe that kanji should not exist for this very reason. Med students, though, need each and every ounce of memorization they can get.

>>40328969
>I believe that kanji should not exist for this very reason
opinion disregarded, go back to crying about "translation when?!?!" somewhere else like the brainlet EOP you are

>>40328991
Look, I get enough symbols with chemicals, I don't have the headspace for yet more scribbly lines. A failed Japanese course taught me that the hard way.

>>40328072
Untill your anki reviews go into 3 digits and eats your time...

>>40336187
Here's my anki mining deck, it would take me days to finish + all the words I stopped mining I read everyday, it's fucking insane. I can't find a reason to mine when I could just keep reading.

Learning with Anki is actually a waste of time

>>40336187
>>40336223
why don't you just limit your reviews to 50/day or smth like that? It's better than nothing

>>40336223
You have only yourself to blame for slipping on your reviews