/jp/ - Otaku Culture

ok

that's why the 5th rule isn't included in the game decalogue

Previous thread at >>3987985

Any expert Japanese literate anon with Atlas solved the riddle yet?

>>3990811
Oh, I'm sorry. I'm going to delete this thread in five minutes.

>>3990811
Yes

Erika is not a chinaman.
Erika can't be a chinaman, just because she is the detective in this case.

>>3990822
Keep the thread, the last one's on autosage.

>>3990811
Reminder. Not the translation tool Atlas.
I mean atlas the real map.

>>3990831
Alright. Thanks.
I just don't want to be a detriment to /jp/.

<Good>

>>3990836
won't help much until someone figures out where Kinzo's beloved hometown is.

>>3990864
the moon

Dlanor will be the one who kills Erika. With Erika's approval because she wants Bern to lose. You heard it from me first!

>>3990864
i'm betting on Fukuin House.Kinzo said he have no ties to the original Ushiromiya.I think he is an orphan thus explained why he donate lots of money to the orphanage.

>>3990954
And what is the number of Fukuin House characters and the fascination of -on character?

R07 is probably mocking the English readers when he gave the one sided riddle hint at the end on how English readers will not be able to solve a Japanese riddle.

>>3990864
maybe it (hometown) refers to rokkenjima.

the river with sweetfish might be referring to the underground tunnel with well as an entrance kraus and co were escaping through in ep4.

sweetfish are not really related to the whole riddle, but more like a hint. fish are related to water, and sweetfish in this case to the non-salinated fresh water, unlike the sea water that surrounds the island.

entrance to it is the well, which is where you would get the fresh water from, so the sweetfish and river. at the end of the underground tunnel is kuwadorian, the village of gold, with all the gold hidden in it.

the rest of the epitaph, with killing and all is probably directions to find the mechanism to open the well entrance.

it was locked without any noticable way to open in ep4 when battler was looking for kanon's body, and which erika with battler unlocked after solving the riddle in ep5.

well that's my way of seeing it at least.

R07 said that after playing Ep5 one is able to

- Solve all of the murders of the 5 games.
- Solve 98% of the Epitaph (You'd have to be in Rokkenjima to find out the last clue. R07 said that the complete process to solve it will be illustrated in the next episodes)
- Find out the location of the Gold (He says alot of people have guessed already)

I'm a chinaman!

i'm more interested in rule 10

battler fits it way too well for most episodes.

>>3991123
You do know that the # of people on the Island is stated in red.

How long till eps 6?

why do Hideyoshi and Kyrie keep referring to people as sacrifices?
kinda creepy..

I want to know what is the dirty trick R07 talked about

>>3991130

er I meant rule 9, sorry.

The watson rule.

Hey /jp/,

里 mean village, right?

But it's also a measurement unit which is half a kilometer. Do you think it can be used to solve the Atlas riddle?

>>3991175
I don't think there is a Watson rule involved here.

>>3990970
he knows there is a translation for it so possibly, he does seem right though I do feel at a disadvantage when it comes to solving it.

The most widely believed theory about the riddle and Beatrice true identity in Japan is something that they call the Taiwan theory.
Looks like most of them believe that this is true too.
Also in this case, Beatrice true identity is a BOMB

>>3991242

>>3991242
Taiwan Theory?What is it about?Please elaborate.

>>3991255
Theory is full of weird shit so translating it would be a hassle. You can find it somewhere there here in moonspeak
http://umineco.info

Let me google it for a minute to see if someone translated it.

>>3991242
There is a reason why every game end with everyone dying and the police find zero clues.
Seriously Eva hiding at Kuwodarian with 17corpses lying around and the police find nothing?
Also explain the 4th end but object gaining sentient life? Battler igniting the bomb switch 6years ago?
Sound pretty fantasy though.

>>3991235
Yeah, I know the significance of the epitaph but
I wonder if you can solve it without it.

>Taiwan
what

Well, thank you google:

The hometown refers to a city in Taiwan, Danshui. The subway station right below Danshui Station is a station called 唭哩 岸 (Beitou Qilian Cili-an). The next sentence says: In the village, look for the shore the two will tell you of. In the(其) village(里), look for the shore(岸) the two (口口) will tell you of. So this theory should be right so far. The key is 'Qilian'.

Then,

At the first twilight, you shall lift up as sacrifice the six chosen by the key

At the tenth twilight, the Golden Land is mentioned (黄金の郷). 郷 is usually read as 'Sato' but more rarely as 'kyou'. 京, which means ten quadrillion, is also read as 'kyou'. This 'quadrillion' sounds similar to our secret mansion, Kuwadorian.
So sacrifice the six chosen by the key - 'Qilian' - from Quadrillion.

-u-dr--l-o- is left.

>>3990999
But we don't know how japanese characters work.

Then tear apart the those who are close, which means to separate d and r.
dOOr, which becomes door.

What Ange found in Kumasawa's son's house proves this right - 'This door is opened only at probability of a quadrillion to one'
'Door' and 'quadrillion' both appears in this sentence.
(I'm not too sure about the validity of this statement, but the following interpretations are more convincing)

Then does this actually mean a real 'door'?

Erika mentioned anagrams. Door can be 'rood'. The holy Rood, which means Jesus Christ impaled on the cross. The very first title screen of EP1 shows the chapel, on top of which is a cross with Jesus Christ on it.

Thus, the 'rood' obviously indicates the chapel where it is located.

Another thing with 'tear apart the those who are close'

引き裂, tear apart, can also mean 'to rive' in English.
One can put 'rive' instead of 'OO' between d and r.
Then it becomes d rive r, driver. One can gouge with a driver, right?
The 'driver' may mean the Seven Stakes of Purgatory (they are quite similar in appearance, no?) In EP3, 2 out of 7 stakes do not appear. This may be because two were used, one each for Eva and Rosa. Mammon also said in EP4, 'Then it is only I, not the Seven Sisters!' (Do not remember this part, so translation may again be incorrect) This may be because Mammon was used as a 'driver' instead of a stake.

Back to '-u-dr--l-o-'. This can form Lord U, Lord Ushiromiya, the honorable name.
One can read Ushiromiya(うしろみや) not as (右代宮) but (後ろ見や).
Now this is incorrect, but if one takes from each and reads as 後ろ宮, this means 'behind the shrine'.

Shrine also indicates the chapel.

Supporting this theory:
Maria, in EP2, interprets English written on the chapel (sneering at Battler). The English is suspiciously similar to what Ange found at Kumasawa's son's house.
So the way to Kuwadorian is at the chapel. More specifically, the 'door' is the chapel door.

But the chapel door can be opened with a key. We should be looking for the chapel that cannot be opened (mentioned by Genji in EP2, this author says), Kuwadorian.

So how do we 'open' the door?

Erika says in EP5, "As expected, ......gouging, meant that. Again, my reasoning was correct." (Another random translation by me, as EP5 translation isn't out yet)

Now here, Lord U, the 4~8th twilights, and driver are used.

It goes like this.

L At the fourth twilight, gouge the head and kill.
O At the fifth twilight, gouge the chest and kill.
R At the sixth twilight, gouge the belly and kill.
D At the seventh twilight, gouge the knee and kill.
U At the eighth twilight, gouge the leg and kill.

Left
O
Right
Down
Up

or

Up
Left O Right
Down

O is the keyhole of the chapel door. Push that driver in, according to the epitaph.
The 4~8th twilights remind one of a person's body.
A person has one head, one chest, one belly, two knees, and two legs.

Left O
O -------
Right │
Down ↙ ↘
Up │ │

Ladies and gentlemen, we have a body. So according to LORD U, we should go
Left, O, Right, Down, Down, Up, Up, with the driver.

Thus, the door to Kuwadorian opens.

In EP5, right after Battler completes the eight twilight, he sees Kinzo's ghost.
Then Erika looks at where he's glancing at and says, "Is it that way?" or something similar.

This means that nothing special immediately happens after completing the eight twilight. This is mentioned in the game itself.

There are no special locked rooms in the chapel, said Beato in red.
So what we've done with LORD U must open a door elsewhere, like that well in EP4 where Kanon died.

Knox article 8. There cannot be solutions with unpresented evidence.

When Battler went to that well in EP4, it was covered with a steel lid and would not open. This may be a clue.

Remember that 後ろ宮 from before. This means 'behind the chapel'.

Erika probably intended to go behind the chapel.
But Battler, who saw the ghost of Kinzo, steered a little astray and went 'behind the Ushiromiya mansion', where the well was (In EP4, Krauss says the well is behind the Ushiromiya mansion')

Anyway, in EP4, Kyrie and others climbed out the well quite easily. The well may have a ladder or may not be that deep. So, if the 'driver' lets the steel lid be opened, one may go to Kuwadorian quite easily. And to that enormous mountain of gold.

>>3991316
>>3991322
>>3991331
>>3991327
FUCKING TAIWAN!!!!!FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF

But the epitaph isn't over yet.

Midnight, in English, is often called the 'witching hour'.
And midnight is often associated with the hour 0.
In EP1, when it became midnight (hour 0, witching hour), Beatrice's butterflies appeared. This signifies game over.

At the ninth twilight, the Witch shall live again and none shall be left to live.
Then the 'witching hour' - when the Witch shall live aagain - is probably hour 0.
Let's go one step further and think witch = 0.

(The author goes on to explain the 'One shall be' parts, but I think this part is quite self-explanatory)

Let's examine Sleep peacefully, my most beloved witch, Beatrice.
Let's replace witch with 0, as we theorized that witch=0 before.

(Now in this English translation, it says 'my MOST beloved witch, Beatrice', but the author translated this part into 'my beloved witch, Beatrice')

My beloved witch, Beatrice becomes
My beloved 0, Beatrice
MB0B

flip this, and as an anagram we have

BOMB

So, my beloved witch Beatrice is BOMB.

Perhaps Eva-Beatrice attacking Beatrice's heart with the Siestas may be in reality Eva trying to dismantle the bomb. More importantly, in the EP4 tea party, Beatrice did not refute the 'small bombs theory' with the red. Perhaps this is related to 'what Beato hid till the end' that Lambdadelta mentioned.

But this is no small bomb - this must be a bomb that can blow up an extremely large area, buildings and lands and all.

>>3991351
MY GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOD

Holy shit

Wow a bomb is involved? Color me surprised!

>>3991316
>>3991322
>>3991327
>>3991331
>>3991336
>>3991341
>>3991348
>>3991351

This is beautiful
R07 should drop whatever he had planned and make this true

LOL at Ry07's Konami game cheat code.

Bloody beautiful if it's true though.

Good posts/find.

>>3991351
>>3991348
>>3991341
>>3991336
>>3991331
>>3991327
>>3991322
>>3991316
Oh wow.........
A+++.
Will read it again.

One question.
What is the significant of Taiwan, Danshui to Kinzo?
Also why does Kinzo love a bomb?
>Eva-Beatrice attacking Beatrice's heart with the Siestas may be in reality Eva trying to dismantle the bomb.
But Eva survived and did not dismantle the bomb hiding at Kuwodorian? No?

>>3991373
if you people only checked animesuki, the translation has been there for ages

Deus Ex end

>>3991380
Son of a bitch, Rudolf even mentions the Konami cheat code in EP1.

>Ironic, isn't it? What a two-facing witch. She reads out point after point from the Decalogue, forgetting the one which she broke.

She's also the detective though, which according to Knox means she can't be the killer.

If this theory is true then all this fucking time...Beato want Battler to dismantle a fucking bomb?!My heart HNNNNGGGGNNGHed in a bad way.

>>3991394
>animesuki

No, how about you go back to your precious animesuki alone?

Then what do the numbers on the door signify?

>>3991336
Krauss should have kept that NES for himself instead.

Also a few more things about that theory.
Taiwan during the period where Kinzo became rich was in a huge gold mining phase.
It's stated somewhere that Kinzo worked in a mining business.
It may also explain the bomb, he may have placed some dynamite on the island, thank to the experience he had in mining, to cause a mud flow that destroyed most of the island.

Kuwadorian may be the only place safe, which explain how Eva returned alive in episode 3.

>>3991437
I mean, there are very interesting things at animesuki, this theory has been there for two weeks, comments on solving murders that here just get trolled, thechnichal support.. it's no my fault you people hate animesuki just becuase you have to identify yourself to post, so the anon status is lost and you have to face the consequences of your acts
I sometimes forget this place is full of mentally underage people

>>3991465
can you link to the animesuki post about this theory?the umineko theory thread have too many pages.

>>3991465
That theory has been alive since episode 4 in 2ch though.
Maybe I should have posted it sooner, problem is that I fucking hate the Umineko fanbase in /a/ and I don't want to bring them in /jp/.

http://archive.easymodo.net/cgi-board.pl/jp/thread/3120643

Large bombs theory have been brewing since August.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Age_of_Detective_Fiction


1. The criminal must be mentioned in the early part of the story, but must not be anyone whose thoughts the reader has been allowed to know.
2. All supernatural or preternatural agencies are ruled out as a matter of course.
3. Not more than one secret room or passage is allowable.
4. No hitherto undiscovered poisons may be used, nor any appliance which will need a long scientific explanation at the end.
5. No Chinaman must figure in the story.
6. No accident must ever help the detective, nor must he ever have an unaccountable intuition which proves to be right.
7. The detective himself must not commit the crime.
8. The detective is bound to declare any clues which he may discover.
9. The stupid friend of the detective, the Watson, must not conceal from the reader any thoughts which pass through his mind: his intelligence must be slightly, but very slightly, below that of the average reader.
10. Twin brothers, and doubles generally, must not appear unless we have been duly prepared for them.

>>3991465
>I sometimes forget this place is full of mentally underage people

u mad

>>3991480
What's the matter, don't like shipping?

Neither do I.

Well a bomb in the main house area would indeed explain why they only find body pieces like a jaw. I don't see how a natural disaster would spare Kuwadorian while it devastates the rest of the island in such a way that any bodies are FUBARed.

>>3991351
>Perhaps Eva-Beatrice attacking Beatrice's heart with the Siestas may be in reality Eva trying to dismantle the bomb.
HAHA OH WOW.jpg.

>>3991487
Ryukishi changed some parts and didn't include 5, so just copy the game ones, theyre inteh TIPs after all

>>3991544
its not a game

>>3991561
serious business?

So can we conclude that Battler in Ep3 is having delusion of Eva killing him while in actual fact he got killed by a bomb while Eva is safely hiding in the Kuwadorian bunker?

>bomb

Didn't Erika or Dlanor tell Battler in red he was the detective during the previous episodes?

>>3991575

Is there any proof that the mansion is destroyed after Eva is found in Episode 3?

>>3991575
So we can conclude that umineko makes no fucking sense whatsoever?

>>3991595
Yeah, Battler is not the culprit in 1-4, I think Virgilia said that though.

>>3991597
>>3991600
Eva is the only survivor.
Police found zero evidence that can proved Eva is a killer.
Event was labeled as a "terrible accident".
Now what do you think happened that could wipe every evidence off the face of the Earth?
When Ange visited the island later in the 4th episode, she did not once step a foot inside the mansion because there is no mansion left.

>>3991610
No, i mean, if Battler was the detective, there was no way what he saw in the last scene of ep3 was a dellusion.

>>3991621
>Police found zero evidence that can proved Eva is a killer.
>Now what do you think happened that could wipe every evidence off the face of the Earth?
Money, wasn't it said Eva bought off the police?

>>3991600
A warlock did it.

>>3991629
you have no love.

>>3991621
yeah, the bomb must be placed below the mansion, probably near the entrance. It destroyed the mansion, but was not strong enough to blow up the whole island. And the island ground was leveled during the explosion.

>>3991626
Why not?
I don't see how that would contradict his status as detective.

>>3991626
Same thing as in Ep5. He thought he saw Kinzo.

>>3991595
Yes she said Battler was the detective in previous EPs.

And we have to think the fact that the detective saw uniformed-Beato.
It wasn't disguise, because her dress was different than the portrait. Battler understood she was "Beatrice" by seeing her FACE.

>>3991646
IIRC by the Ryu-Knox rules, detectives can't have dellusions.

>>3991666
Was there any inner dialogue from Battler in that scene?
Is it possible he was intoxicated like in EP 2 and 4?

Bomb makes so much sense in the final riddle.

I'd say that Rokkenjima is on a time limit, in which a bomb explodes if the one who solves the epitaph isn't declared.

In episode 5, Battler solves the epitaph and is declared the successor, isn't he? A meta-world parallel to that could be Beato's death and Battler being acknowledged as the new sorcerer/game master.

>>3991682
he might be drunk, but no poisoned, since there's not any clues about that.

>>3991666
So did he actually see Beato at the end of EP4?

>>3991666
He saw Beato at the balcony at the end of the 4th episode.
If you are telling me that this isn't a delusion, Beato exists as a person then.
Knox theory #10 - no disguise without any clues.
Is there any clues that can point to someone disguising an almost perfect Beato that Battler cant misidentify?

>>3991694
MARISA etc...

>>3991694
What time it happened?
I guess that was after the 00:00h

>>3991464
Did no one at all visit the mansion during Ange's arc?
I find that quite hard to believe.
And what about the books?

>>3991694
>If you are telling me that this isn't a delusion, Beato exists as a person then
I think it's a delusion based on the events at the end of EP2.
>Is there any clues that can point to someone disguising an almost perfect Beato that Battler cant misidentify?
Is the Jessica=Beato still alive?

I guess this japanese video make sense.I don't understand it before i read Taiwan Theory.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nETVIeygqjY

Also explain how Bern cant win against Beatrices power.
No miracle can save you from a bomb that can level an entire island.

>>3991713
Ange was killed by Amakusa before she could find the mansion because Okonogi paid him craploads of gold that Eva gave him.

>>3991682
> I got the feeling that the voice was coming from the heavens, ......and I looked up at the sky.
> ......What I saw there, ........., was a woman I had never seen before.
> No, it's not true that I never saw her before.
> ......I saw her once today.
> Yes, in the portrait inside the mansion......
> The clothes were different, ......but that face was just like the witch of the portrait......
> Aaah, who am I kidding...I already know who this person is...!!
> "......A, ......are you Beatrice?!!!"
> "Yahhoooooooooi, Battleeeeeeeeeeeeer...!!"

>>3991688

As Battler acknowledged, the final riddle is a "souped up Dr. Nanjo murder". It's already been stated that Nanjo wasn't killed through trap x.

If this speculation is true.
I can already see the corny ending coming now.
All of them banding together to defuse the bomb to avert a huge disaster.
How anti climatic can this be?

>>3991741
Ange is alive.EP6 spoiler confirmed it.

>>3991741
But the books.
Didn't Eva give up a lot of books to charity?

>>3991748
he was refering to the fact, no one could've killed X at that moment, no red truhs were given for Battler's

>>3991749
You forget that someone wants it to explode.

>>3991751
Not confirmed.

>>3991727
It's possible, and the whole witch as a separate identity used for escape is strongly hinted in EP2 with the tsurupettan.

Perhaps Jessica was abused by Kinzo, which in turn may explain the Jessica / Genji fight and her attraction to Kanon, who is probably the most submissive person on the island.

>>3991743
I meant EP 3, sorry.
The read text never touched the matter of whether or not Beato could be or not mistaken as someone else.

>>3991751
If Ange survived, we can be pretty sure she will give major hints about the mansion in the next episode she appears.
But i guess that will be the Ange of a different timeline.

Red text. Blue text.

Cut the red text. Its always the red text.

Finally a good theory, good thread.
I was getting really tired of this pony shipper shit in every Umineko thread.

>>3991767
Jessica as Beato is too obvious because of tsurupettan. Its a red herring, let it go.

Rereading end of ep3 again.
Fucking ticking clock....
Clue given by R07?

>>3991797
R07 isnt a subtle writer.
And the fact that it may seem a red herring may be a red herring, double troll.

>>3991797
More amusingly, this is all wrapped inside a meta story, while the detective is drunk, and everyone is already dead.

Large bombs => everyone dead but the people "left" after the final twilight

Also, Battler's sin may thus have been Inputting the Konami code

>>3991797
There is still a lot of evidence and I don't recall it getting smashed down like shkanon.

And we all laughed at Battler about those small bombs.Sorry Battler....Small bombs is still silly.heh

>>3991761
Yeah, if there's a bomb set up there, there's someone wanting to explode them.
But i wonder, how can you bribe people in accept to be killed? The moment the first heads roll, people WILL tell the secrets out of fear.

>>3991821
1) They're Japanese
2) The Servants don't care except for
3) The new Servant who knows nothing
4) Lets match mystical characters to their real analogues more.

>>3991816
Even though small bombs is silly, I'm sure Kinzo did make something with the purpose of killing the family members. That someone mentioned that his fascination with the guns wasn't with firing them but with the loading mechanisms suggests that he did at least make a stake launcher.

>>3991821
Probably only the main culprit knows about the bomb.

>>3991832
HOW THE HELL DOES GOHDA FIT INTO ANY OF THIS!?!??!

That's what I'm dying to find out. Even his diary failed to shed anything substantial on his motivations or agendas. He's just......there, seemingly to make up the numbers.

>>3991821
Only the true mastermind or someone that solved the riddle knew that there is a bomb ticking.
Room that George died from had the bank account mark.
What it could imply is "Fuck you Eva, pay me my money if not I will continue killing people"

>>3991840
Or Battler set the timer running six years ago.

A bomb makes no sense. How many times has it been said it's not trap X? I'd be kind of pissed it if turned out to be a bomb. It also breaks the 10 rules. Of course the 10 rules could be there for the singular fact they are going to be broken.

>>3991849
Kinzo invited some random Servants to make sure the number of people on the island equaled 13

>>3991859
>Or Battler set the timer running six years ago.
A 12 year old boy armed a bomb by committing a sin, and told no one and then forgot about it?

That's a little out there.

On the significance of Taiwan...


I'm going by my earlier assumption that Kinzo's seed money was war gold by the Japanese which they were shipping out of Japan.

And what do you fucking know.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiwan_under_Japanese_rule

It was the first Japanese offshore colony and lasted UNTIL 1945.

The gold could have been sent there while Kinzo was living/visiting there. He met Beatrice, she gave him the gold, and that's what he considers his "real" home.

He was a rich Japanese in a Japanese colony. He should have been well looked after. I imagine he was happy somehow. Also, consider the fact that it was said that he was from a branch of a branch, and was not in the running to be the head.


"Go here and don't get in the way. Support the war effort or something."

"Yes sir."

>>3991849
GOHDA == RONOVE

>>3991867
He's dead jim.

>>3991859
Beato said no one would die if he came that year though.
>>3991867
I don't like the idea of a completely useless character but that might be a red herring by itself.
>>3991853
Which account was that?
Was Ange given the account numbers?

>>3991833
also modified the winchesters so they would be better, that way the weapons called Siestas were born, that's her origin. The rabbits are just the origin of why we see them like that

>>3991871
↑ ↑ ↓ ↓ ← → ← → B A

>>3991879
*if he didn't come

>>3991879
Still rereading the end of Ep3 and yes I assumed it is the same number as the one that Ange found.

>>3991872
If he fell in love with Beato in Taiwanese goldmines then homicide by LARGE BOMBS would come naturally, and he'd seek to experience the embrace again.

>>3991867
Gohda was going to be there anyway, because he's the cook and what's the point of having a big family meeting without a big family meal?

Also, he's the only servant without the golden wing emblem, and was hired by Natsuhi and Krauss themselves. He just seems like one big loose end and surely he must've been factored into someone's plan at some point.

>>3991853

That's ridiculous. Eva had no idea what it meant. There are much better ways to extort something from somebody rather than using such a subtle and confusing method.

Guys, I have been avoiding every Umineko discussion until I could read Ep.5 by myself, so can anyone please a theory /a/ has created regarding the Piece Beatrice in the end of Episode 4?

Is there truly a "Beatrice" alive? Was it just Jessica?

>>3991892
The siblings have a huge meeting prior to the family meeting to discuss about Kinzo death rumour.
I wouldn't put it past them to come up with some murdering plan. Any other way to explain the numbers?

Now I am at the scene of Eva-trice vs Beato.
If we believed the Taiwan Theory if would be something like Kanon turning on the bomb for revenge against what Eva did to Jessica eyes.
Sound ridiculous man.

>>3991891

Kumasawa has the Eagle?

Well, that makes sense because she knows Kuwadorian. She might just be covering up with her clothes.

It's on her still substantial breasts

>>3991891
Kumasawa also doesn't carry the one-winged eagle crest.

This entire thread doesn't have enough about labour strikes by Taiwanese miners.

>>3991918
Isn't it common knowledge that the entire game is a metaphor for labor strikes by Taiwanese miners?

MADE IN TAIWAN

>>3991694
> If you are telling me that this isn't a delusion, Beato exists as a person then.
I think Beatrice exists.

Kinzo's occultism is for resurrecting Beatrice.
It needs a vessel for her soul.
The vessel, Kuwadorian-Beatrice, died about 19 years ago.
But he continued his occultism after her death.

It's obvious that he had prepared the new vessel.
And he probably brought her from Fukuin house.

Her name Kinzo gave is perhaps "Maria."
That's why Kinzo got angry when Rosa named her daughter Maria, rejecting the name given from Kinzo.
That's why message-bottles have the same signature, Maria Ushiromiya.
That's why the magic scenes of this story is weird. Beato's knowledge only comes from Kinzo's education, and conversations with some people who know Beato. She is using Maria's imaginations mainly. And it's what Tips of EP4 is saying.("Sea of zero" etc.)

>>3991913
That theory is pretty old tired by now, /a/ came up with nothing.
>Is there truly a "Beatrice" alive?
Only if it's someone else, it has been suggested throughout the game that someone could pose as Beatrice a la maria receiving the letter that is usually read at the dinner table.
>Was it just Jessica?
Nothings gotten rid of it yet.

>>3991931
That explains everything except Sakutaro. What role does Sakutaro play in the Taiwanese trade union interpretation?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danshui

Okay so it's pretty much settled that Danshui is the beloved hometown and it makes sense if you look at the "freshwater" river Danshui river. But that still leaves me one question: How did they ever figure this out? Did they just google "ai no kawa" or something. I don't really get it.

What about that insane underground railway theory?

17 people exist ON the island.

How about under it?

What's the Japanese on that one, can it work?

Background on that is someone extracted the backgrounds and one of the folders was labeled Subway, with no pictures whatsoever of the subway that Rosa and Maria used, and instead it looks underground.

>>3992000
Did unionised Taiwanese dig that railroad? If not, its a black gig.

>>3992000
I really, really don't like that theory.

>>3992000
Can you find a single clue that would support there being a rail?

The 10 rules were mentioned in episode 5 to get rid of everyone's crazy batshit theories.

>>3992000
Knox 8th
It´s forbidden for the case to be solved with clues that are not presented.

And it was surely never presented anything related to trains.

>>3992019
I thought he was throwing those out there to focus us to the real truth and maybe to troll.

>>3992031
I'm pretty sure it's to get rid of the batshit insane theories, of which there are legion.

>>3992000

I figured episode 5's Pro-mystery stance destroyed this theory, since other people that we initially arent introduced to can't be a factor in the story.

Honestly, I think R7 did that so people wouldn't start getting crazy higurashi theories like "Yamainu", "Tokyo" and "Hinamizawa Syndrome" (which, coincidentally Lambdadelta disproves in Ep 5 anyway).

>>3991832
So the Gaap = Nanjo was true, after all...

What are some of the crazy theories Japan came up with? Like we've Jessitrice, pony theory, and Amakusa-is-Kyrie/Natsuhi's son, amongst many others.

>>3991970
Or, you know, some Umineko reader living in Taiwan felt it hit too close to home.

>>3992047
Only westerners came up with those crazy theories.

>Perhaps Eva-Beatrice attacking Beatrice's heart with the Siestas may be in reality Eva trying to dismantle the bomb.
What a ridiculous theory.
Kanon before dying armed the freaking bomb and blow Nanjo right before his eyes.
Eva survived because he is probably running to the Kuwodarian.
Battler chased after her probably and Eva probably killed Battler as a self defense.

>>3992046
I wouldn't be surprised if the fantasy characters where more like emotions than set to any specific analog.

Something like Ronove = Genji seems pretty obvious, but then you have EVA-Beatrice who is more like an emotion for "hate" and can jump from character to character, or Beatrice herself who seems to be an allegory for characters being the culprit.

It could be a mix of both too.

After all, we know the voyager witches are embodiments of their specific traits.

On a side note they're really not as cruel when you view them that way. Rather, you understand why they are cruel. Miracles never happen when you need them and life's Certainty is normally a bad thing, (death and taxes). It's also funny they're opposed to each other in that sense as well.

>>3992046
Gaap seemed to be Maria's rose.

>>3992074
THEN WHO WAS ROSE

>>3992101
ROSE DID UMINEKO

>>3992105
Did Beatrice ever say that Roses were incapable of walking, talking and murdering?

>>3992101
The rose never existed

>>3992047
Jessitrice is popular in moonland too.
Not pony though, it's pure /a/ shipper dream.

>>3992047
Westerners' theories are boring because the number of players are quite fewer than Japanese players.
Actually I haven't read any theories Japanese players don't have. Westerners' theories are a part of Japanese theories. About 30% or so.

I wounder, was the kid gived to Natsuhi the new Beatrice, or his child?

This scece seems to tell it..

I guess that's pretty clear that:

Gaap = Criminals trying to eliminate evidences. I don't think there's a person related directly to her or Ryukishi would give a hint to that.
(Unless Gaap = Rosa)

>>3992123
I did wonder that, actually. Especially with the way Kinzo seemed to snap afterwards.

>>3992110
What are you talking about?

>>3992112
I've never heard this one, explain.
>>3992070
Ties in to the "without love it can't be seen" theme we have going. I like this interpretation 'cause it gives the meta-world even more flexibility and symbolism adding clues.

So I'm kind of proud of myself that I came up with battler's theory after the first phonecall to Natsuhi. I'm also ashamed as it's fucking impossible and I couldn't come up with something that could have actually happened.

>>3992114
Guy who originally posted the pony theory posted it here first. Well, the groundwork for it. I think he also posted it to animesuki at the same time as /jp/.

People assume that Rokkenjima is a closed circle.
It isn't.

Gohda cooked Maria's rose for the dinner. He's stupid like that.

>>3992156
Go back to /a/ pony faggot.

If the child given to Natsuhi actually was a guy, doesn't that rule out Jessitrice, along with gameboard!Beatrice being a direct descendant?

>>3992147
The rose was NEVER said on RED
The rose didnt EXIST

The rose is a LIE
so is the CAKE

>>3992156
Isn't there red text that contradicts that?
I mean most of the mystery is lost if it isn't closed.

>>3992156
Go ahead and explain how it's not a closed circle once the murders start happening and then show a clue for it.

>>3992161
>implying Ryuukishi didn't say so himself

Can someone explain to me the mechanics of the different texts again?

Which needs evidence, which is actually "true", which can change reality and become truth, etc. etc.

I need to know whether I'm on the right track while rereading EP 1-4 and scouring for answers

>>3992159
Being serious about this for a moment, that wouldn't surprise me. Say Gohda wanted to add a bit of flair to his dinner, and thought rose petals would be ideal. Or you know, he wanted rose petals for that handwash thing you have alongside fancy dinners. If he did need the rose for something like that, I could only see him importing the roses, the finest you can get. Unless the roses in Rokkenjima were fine enough already.

>>3992123
>>3992135

He appeared 19 years ago, right?
Isn't the same year Beatrice II dissapear?

>>3992177
Something along the lines of "There is no more than 17 people on Rokkenjima"?

>>3992177
Knox #1

>>3992189
There's a very good explanation for the red and blue text in Ep. 5's TIPS.

>>3992196
But Maria's rose didn't look that great.

>>3992201
I think so. This is backed up by saying at the time Natsuhi received the child, Rosa was still living on the island, in middle school I believe. She was currently out on a trip with her friends. The trip could have been something she needed to wash away the trauma of killing Beatrice II.

I still have some problems solving Gaap's holes in EP4.

Any theories about it? (In b4 drugs)

>>3992214
And gohda is a perfeccionist asshole.
He would take the rose from the garden just because it was ugly and he wouldnt like to ''shame'' the family

>>3992063
Ok finished.
>"Unfortunate accident"
R07 hiding "bomb blast" as "unfortunate accident"......

>>3992220
Id solve her holes if you know what i mean

>>3992196

It's stated in the game that the desert for the dinner of the first day had rose petals on it for decoration.

>>3992220
The holes are a lie.
The survivors were made to lie.

It´s simple as that.

>>3992135
>>3992123
I think it was pretty obvious that it was Beatrice 2's child. I mean it matched with her death 20 years ago. Kinzo probably tried to raise it himself before he realized that it was too much for him before giving it to Natsuhi.

Also did anyone else think it was odd that they never mentioned it's gender?

>>3992196
But Gohda DID cook up roses for the dinner, i'm serious. Read episode 1 again. The question is if he did that or not.
Also, i guess he sent Kanon to get the roses.

>>3992227
Witches's Tanabata confirmed that Eva really felt sorrowed and sad about the "unfortunate incident".

Highly unlikely she is the true culprit and would bribed the police to cover it up. Having the most obvious suspect as the culprit is what third rate mystery novel will do.

>>3992239
Oh, really? That's interesting. It didn't mention where he got the roses from though, did it?

Even though I do agree with
>>3992226
, about Gohda being an utter perfectionist. He could've been in a tizzy though, desperately looking for something last minute. He stumbles out into the garden like a headless chicken, wildly looking around the garden. He sees Maria's rose, with the ribbon/wrapper tied around it, and it's almost like divine intervention. He promptly takes it.

How about Kyrie and Jessica's call, and Kumasawa and Gohda's story?

They all talk about believing in witches. And what's up with the "gold flying thing" and "gold thread" and the holes around Kyrie's body?

>>3992263

Well, tecnicaly she didn't want to kill anyone, her other personaly did it...

>>3992273

Yes it did. It was from the rose garden.

>>3992275
That didn't happened.
It could just be Kyrie telling Battler she is getting killed by the gold thread and gold flying thing.

>>3992255
>Also did anyone else think it was odd that they never mentioned it's gender?
That bothered me a lot too, Natsuhi didn't pay much mind to the child so it is probable that she didn't even know gender either.

>>3992275
Liars telling liar lies

>>3992280
Excellent, even better.

So I guess we can assume that Gohda might have actually took Maria's rose?

>>3992283
>>3992286

So they're all in a conspiracy? What's the motivation for it? Where did the idea for witches come from? Why does the description match the Siesta's bow? What about the holes around Kyrie's body? Why did she say, she was being attacked at that moment and will die? How did Jessica know she is going to die, and how did she know George was dead?

This episode is screwed up.

>>3992293
It´s a plausible truth.

>>3992285
It was most likely a boy. If it wasn't she would be saying otherwise about the harasser.

>>3992297
A gun in someone head is enough motivation for lying.

But i guess some real culprits may bie hidden among them.

>>3991626
Ok if what Battler saw at the end of the ep3 is the truth.

>When the sun exploded and blew everything away.
This happened as well.
Eva was probably crazy and insane after seeing the huge explosion and finding out about George death and kill Battler.

>>3992285
How do we know that the child even DIED?
And what if that child was a GIRL?
She'd be NINETEEN.
The same age as a certain pony FANATIC.

>>3992297
Someone could have easily told her that George died. It's the only way, really. Unless George and Jessica actually did give each other finishing blows. Jessica managed to survive, but the culprit finished George off. On seeing Jessica survive, the culprit dragged her back to her room, and saw that she actually was dying. Culprit made her ring up Battler, telling her what to say to him.

>>3992275
I want to say that in their fear they can only rationalize it with wild tales but that would be to convenient. Also Kruas is full of so much shit and what ever came of the gold ingot he showed Natsuhi in EP 1 or the ingots that appeared in EP 2's "party"?

>>3992297
The motivation is to hold down the Taiwanese working class.

>>3992293

That's what I'm thinking now, too. Also, screen capture in case you were interested.

>>3992309
There are only 17 people on the island. (+Erika)
The baby is a boy. Natsuhi would've said something otherwise or at least noted she didn't remember.

>>3992302
I find it strange to believe blindly in the phone scenes...i mean...

No red was given that confirmed anything at all about ''natsuhi's adopted children''.

Even if this was the truth, some of the scene could be fake (he/she could have told her to hide his gender) or even the entire scene could be bullshit.

>>3992322
Son of a bitch.
It's all so obvious now.

>>3992332
There's no indication the baby isn't a boy. Not a single bit.

Further, if Kinzo was going to chose an adopted grandchild as a successor he would chose a boy. Look at Eva for proof.

>>3992318
That bothered me about this Episode. Krauss definitley had one ingot, as shown in Legend. There were three ingots in Turn, one of which may have been Krauss'. If Krauss has one ingot every Episode, couldn't he have used the ingot to have paid off a little bit of his debts in this Episode?

I'm guessing him having the ingot isn't constant after all.

>>3992322
And what does this prove?
GAAP is symbolizing Gohda and he is the guy that is moving hiding corpses?

>>3992349
It proves that he might have taken Maria's rose, if you were following what we were saying.

WAIT.
How did the rabits kill Kyrie in her room, then?

>>3992316
>>3992305

Battler said that they don't sound like they were being threatened and don't sound like people with guns pressed to their heads. How did Jessica know her head would be blown off as well?

I'd like to say they've been doped and are fucking high, but Knox won't let me right?

I want to solve the whole thing using EP 1-4 but the methods of killing is fucking tripping me up.

>>3992342
There is no proof that he's a boy either, and you could argue that the baby would be a new ''beatrice'' for him.

To be honest, im playing devil's advocate, i dont buy this baby's revenge story at all. But you cant really trust anything that isnt in red.

>>3992334
Now what comes of it?
>>3992332
For what reason do we have to doubt Natsuhi's phone conversations?
I'm interested if Erika's new theory has anything to do with this.

>>3992316
The killer called Jessica and George together. He probably made them fight and made Jessica kill George, then call Battler. He killed her just after that.

>>3992353
Don't interpret the magic fightan scenes as real.
Treat it everything as a lie until it is proven by red.

>>3992361
Why shouldnt we? It just popped out of nowhere, until red or gold proves that it happened it could be lambda's bullshit.

>>3992365

Jessica would be fucking pissed afterwards, and not the resigned, "I am going to die Battler, so for your sake believe in Witches." girl she was.

Unless the culprit broke her will so thoroughly and she wanted to spare Battler the truth?

>>3992360
Of course there's plenty of room to doubt the phone conversations as any more than Natsuhi goin a little crazy. The fact she killed a boy child 19 years ago, or at least tried, is a bit more solid however. At least the fact she believed she tried to.

>>3992349
By him taking the roses swiftly, or a single rose that matters a whole fucking lot to someone, I suppose the roses could be some sort of symbolism for the bodies. The bodies going quickly through the holes could be Gohda dropping them quickly into the pots.

Or something.

>>3992377
R07 rarely bullshits in flashbacks.

>>3992343
This is bothering me too if he knew about the gold being real he wouldn't playing this charade with Kinzo still being alive and not showing him doing anything remotely related to the epitaph.
>I'm guessing him having the ingot isn't constant after all.
This might be a red herring but I think it deserves an extra look.

>>3992388
EP 2 would like a word with you

>>3992381
"Call Battler tell him exactly what i say. One word more and all your family plus Kanon are dead."

>>3992349

Nothing really. I just remembered about the rose petals on the lunch's dessert when the other guy brought up that Gohda might have taken the roses. Just a plausible explanation for where he rose went (instead of LOL IT BLUE AWAY).

...Actually, it might be a clue. What if Gohda left an umbrella with 2 letter attached. One addressed to Maria and the other for the dinner and he took the roses on purpose? Well... probably not.

>>3992377
I thought it was a given that everything that happened for the conference of '86 actually happened. Whether the 'son' rang or not during the conference is something that would have to be proved.

>>3992404
*happened before the conference, my mistake

>>3992343
Krauss was drowning in shit and debts. One ingot will be not near enough for helping him.

>>3992388
Are you telling me that the same woman that some time ago was talking to a ghost and a imaginary friend is somewhat reliable in her point of view just because she was on phone?

>>3992404
This, I think anything that isn't lol magic not in conference should be taken as fact until proven otherwise.

>>3992403
But still, it puts a specific thought about.

Gohda probably wouldn't just up and take that specific Rose, unless he's told to.

What if the culprit, being a member of the family. Tells Gohda to take the rose in the garden with a bow tied around it. Knowing that this will make Maria go outside to search for it, where they can make their appearance as Beatrice.

>>3992426
Dude. It is obvious by now whoever that caller is, he is trying to frame Natsuhi as the murderers.
Would you be so stupid to hide in a closet when people are dying infront of you?
The baby isn't important, WHO that caller is more important because it implied he is the mastermind.

>>3992399

Well alright...Might have more impact on Jessica if George was killed in front of her after their "battle"

Moving on. Kyrie and the holes, and is Gohda and Kumasawa part of the conspiracy?

>>3992395

Does he have the head ring?

>>3992426
It'd be fucking anticlimatic if Natsuhi still were lying after all the bullshit Bern and Erika pushed on her. For now, i want to believe her.

Wait, how would SMALL BOMBS = A LARGE BOMB?

>>3992440
Where is it told in red that natsuhi was hidden in the closet?

Sure, Erika found her where she shouldnt be, but not in the crime scene.

>>3992435
Kinzo was screaming like a lunatic in the previous EPs even tough he's dead...And no, these scenes werent obvious LOLMAGIC.

>>3992447
>Does he have the head ring?
Now that I think of it they never said anything about it until Battler had it, good find.

But how was the letter sealed if the ring was inside?

...or was it sealed?

>>3992467
She saw Hideyoshi dying in that room right or do you want to say that is another "delusion"?

>>3992467
We can take it as fact until the red truth strikes it down.
I see it as outside the two days is the truth unless stated otherwise in contrast to the already established understanding.

Beatrice dying on cliff="Natsuhi's kid" dying

Rosa's story was just a hint,not fact.
Battler as detective din't hear it.

>>3992486
Battler saw the mutilated corpses of Jessica, George, Maria and Rosa even tough they werent dead. He also saw Kinzo's ghost.

What's your point?

Battler doesn't exist.
The entire thing is the delusion of one random guy.
The end.
Don't you love how much MYSTERY there is in umineko?

>>3992510
Read
>>3989878

>>3992505
It's a theory...nothing is a fact until it's confirmed either by the detective or by the red/golden.

>>3992507
That would work if it wasn't for:
# In the forest of Rokkenjima, a hidden mansion called Kuwadorian exists
* (Used by Ronove in Chapter 5: Rosa and the Witch of the Forest.)
# [In the past,] those two actually had a conversation like that in this place
* (Those two refers to Kinzo and Human Beatrice.)
# This is the world of 1967
# In 1967, in a hidden mansion on Rokkenjima, Beatrice-sama existed as a human
# She is definitely dead
* (Used by Beatrice. She is referring to her human self.)

>>3992507
Hm...not bad.

>>3992524
Not everything but you can't discount the entire phone call thing as pure fabrication, there must be something to it.

>>3992507
>Battler as detective din't hear it.
Not to mention that even if he did Rosa could be, you know, lying.

>>3992525
Yes and everything fits perfectly!
It was 19 years ago!!

So any hint about Batora's sin?
And is "Battler" on the conference really true Battler?

About the large bomb theory, note in the start of Episode 5 Krauss tells Natsuhi that he "signed over the deed to his house" and that the debtors could "take it whenever they want".

>"signed over the deed to his house" and that the debtors could "take it whenever they want".

How would this has any connection to the bomb?
It is not like they know about the bomb without solving the the riddle right?

<The Who?>
George and Ginji are the culprit
<The How?>
Ginji drug all the children after dinner, Rosa as well. Battler spent time solving puzzle long after Rosa left him so he was never drugged. While everyone was sleeping like a log. George then created a fake scene faking everyone’s death. This doesn't involve a lot of sound of course since everyone is sleeping.
The next morning George and Ginji both fake their death until everyone left their room. Ginji left his scene shortly after Natushi ran out and George as well left after everyone left. George is physically strong enough to carry Rosa, Jessica and Maria’s unconscious body. He buried them in the wood after killing them there. George also killed Krass and was the one who call Natsuh faking to be her dead son. Ginji knew this and redirect the line to Natsuhi faking that it was from an external line, but in fact it was from the guest house. George also killed Hideyoshi and hides the other closet until Natushi left before getting out.
Later Gorge and Ginji both learn of the 'Gold' that Battler found. With conflict of interest they end up killing each other resulting in double death.
<The Why?>
Ginji knew that Kinzo is dead, however he believe that the family still new a new competent heir. he secretly conspire with George for him to be the next successor. George agree, however to do this he must kill the current assume head which is Krass and blame it on Natushi. In order to avoid suspicious, he must also kill Maria and Rosa who are in the same room as Jessica, and then too fake his death. Later George kills his dad as well thinking he can blame this on Natsuhi so that he can marry his love Sayo.
Later both of them learn that the new family head will be Battler who is awesome and can solve Kinzo's puzzle. Gorge want to rid of Battler, while Ginji want to support him. They both fight using either Kung-fu or shotgun and end up dying.

All Red clear. All Knox met. Everything has also been foreshadowed.

>>3992522
404'd

>>3992537

Maybe yes maybe not, but you cant call anything a estabilished fact until it is estabilished as a fact.

One thing that i think is funny in the phone scene is how her ''son'' ''proved'' natsuhi that he was there with the fall card.

I mean, he could have hidden four cards (corresponding to the four seasons) in various places of the room a long time ago, but he would only tell her where's the one she chose, creating thereafter the illusion that he knew the right answer.

>>3992525
Let's examine that red text.
"In the forest of Rokkenjima, a hidden mansion called Kuwadorian exists"

No shit Kuwadorian exists.

[In the past,] those two actually had a conversation like that in this place
(Those two refers to Kinzo and Human Beatrice.)
Doesn't specify when, For all we know that could be Beato 1, 2 or 3.

In 1967, in a hidden mansion on Rokkenjima, Beatrice-sama existed as a human

Now I agree that Beatrice #X could have died. However look at the way Beato acknowledge the death of Beatrice.

"She is definitely dead"

She is definitely dead, not I am definitely dead, this leaves room for the Beato = Natsuhi's adopted child.

Lemme see...
First Rosa kills Kinzo's illegitimate daughter.
Then Kinzo brought a baby to the house and made Natsuhi his mother. Natsuhi killed the baby.

And people wonder why Kinzo hates his family.

>>3992583
At the start.
Ronove said that the current game is lacking love.
Ep5 is fucking nasty.
What all this implied is that majority of the characters in there are the murderers, accomplices and culprits.

Proof
1) The fucking knock at 24:00 that can't be solved. -this mean that everyone in the room at that time came out with the lie that they heard the knock
-the Battler that is in the 5th game is in it as well
-meta Battler joined the game late so he didn't know that he himself is the accomplice until toward the end

2)Nobody enter the cousins room besides Rosa and Battler
-One of them must be in it.
-Gohda drugged the food/tea when they are playing cards
-Probably a few people were left behind at the guesthouse to move the body when Detective-san and a few of them went to check up on Genji

3)The disappearance of Krauss
-Joined the family discussion at the mansion room
-Since all of them are in it, they kidnapped him and threaten Natsuhi to make her be the culprit

4) Hideyoshi
-knew Natsuhi is in the closet
-faked his death to pinned all the murders to her

4) Planned by who/when
-the meeting between the 3siblings when they were investigating about Kinzo death rumour

5) What was used to bribe the servants
-money (bank account in ep4)
-Shannon (Eva promised that she would let George be with her)
-Kanon (probably coaxed by Shannon)

6) What went wrong
-one of the sibling always end up being too greedy and try to kill everyone

One flaw, this doesn't work for Ep1 unless 1 of them faked their death. Couldn't be fucked to reread ep1.
Delusion rant end.

>>3992574
Not quite, Genji was present the evening before when Eva came to the study to try to inform Kinzo that the gold had been found. He knew of the Gold.

Also it's Genji not Ginji. What the fuck man.

>>3992583
>Maybe yes maybe not, but you cant call anything a estabilished fact until it is estabilished as a fact.
You're right, but we shouldn't be so quick to discredit it based on that it wasn't really touched upon in the meta-world.
>I mean, he could have hidden four cards (corresponding to the four seasons) in various places of the room a long time ago, but he would only tell her where's the one she chose, creating thereafter the illusion that he knew the right answer.
The only thing that might hint at is maybe the servants aren't working with "him".

>>3992467
Not everything has to be in red, man. The other stuff is there for a reason.

>>3992603
What does piece battler gain by killing anyone in that game? He was declared the head, his only real obstacle was eva. And he didn't care about being the head anyway.

>>3992642
Rudolf told him the truth?

>>3992653
This.
I think piece Battler was told the truth and went psycho.

>>3992570
Well, maybe the debtors are the ones that set the bomb. They could use it as a way to force the family to find the gold. Then they blow up the mansion and kill everyone, and take the gold away later.

Although this doesn't go with the Knox rules, that the culprit has to be introduced early in the story. Maybe there was some minor character introduced in the prologue of episode 1? I've gotta reread it.

>>3992728
I'm pretty sure the only characters mentioned in episode 11 are the 18 first, Battler's mom, Rosa's missing husband, Manon and Renon.

>>3992747
Out of all of those Rosa's husband seems the most likely. There is certainly evidence that he is a scumbag, but I don't know if there is evidence that he is a murderer...

I think I just fucking solved it. Wait a moment I need to check some red...

>>3992784
fascinating

If the LARGE BOMB theory is correct, maybe it's hidden underneath the gold.

>>3992943
Where is the gold located?

>>3992728
>>3992747
>>3992775

The debtor part is probably a red herring.
However the debtor could be one of the 17/18 we already know.