/jp/ - Otaku Culture

>implying anyone cares about the protagonists

Smalltime, all of them.

Kaito (Akatsuki no Goei)
Yamato (Majikoi)

Mind is blank, so these will have to do

Kenichi (Sharin no Kuni) should be up there somewhere.

Kenichi (Sharin), Kyousuke (G-Senjou), Shiro (F/SN - yes I like Shiro), Manabu (Carnival), Tomura (Swan Song - there's no real single protagonist in Swan Song so I can just pick any)

1. Shirou (Fate/Stay Night)
2. Tomoya (Clannad)
3. Kenichi (Sharin no Kuni)
4. Shiki (Tsukihime)
5. Maebara Keiichi (Higurashi)

Not too sure about the exact order other than Shirou being my favorite.

Takumi, because he's a bro.

1. Rance
2. Kenichi (Sharin no Kuni)

I don't have any others I really like.

>>3963873
Er, Tanomura, rather.

The protags of Brass Restoration and Wanko to Kurasou were both pretty cool, I don't remember either of their names at this point though.

>>3963860

only the smart ones. . .yamato (majikoi), kyousuke (g-senjou) and kenichi (sharin)

1. Emiya Shirou
2. Ushiromiya Battler
3. Tohno Shiki
4. Kurosu Taichi

I can't really think of a fifth one.

1. Kenichi (Sharin no Kuni)
2. Kou Kadokura (Baldr Sky)
3. Yumemi (Extravaganza)
4. Rance (Rance)
5. Takumi (Chaos;Head)

>Shiki

Kill yourselves.

>>3964065
Whatever, generic Key protagonist.

1. Tsukasa (Swan Song)
2. Yuuichi (Kanon)
3. Takumi (Chaos;Head)
4. Shirou (Fate/stay night)
5. Satoru (Remember11)

1. Makoto Itou
2. Makoto Itou
3. Makoto Itou
4. Makoto Itou
5. Makoto Itou

That Garbageman from Planetarian
That Garbageman from Planetarian
That Garbageman from Planetarian
That Garbageman from Planetarian
That Garbageman from Planetarian

Arata is one of my favorites.

Okarin~

Reiji [Phantom]
Kenichi [Sharin] / G-Senjou
Takuya [YUNO]
Lazlocke [Wizard's Climber] / Ouzoku, Shinobi Ryuu, Suzukuri Dragon
Kousuke [Prima Stella] / Sarasara Sasara

>>3964542
There's a Kenichi in G-Senjou?

>>3964559
No I just didn't bother listing the protag, too lazy.
The one after the slash are secondary picks.

Ken - Sharin no Kuni
Rance - Rance
Tomoya - Clannad

Dunno how people can like Shirou though. He's awful.

>>3963846
1.Romeo ( Gekkou no Carnevale )
2.Kageaki ( Muramasa )
3.Ryouichi ( Ayakashibito )
4.Touru ( Konboku )
5.Emilio/Maou ( Himegari )

Makoto.

>>3964600
Indecisive fags who drops their waifu using sms messages and then lack the balls face them and tell them straight to their face ?
Sure, I suppose it's a good example of the average /jp/ anon.

I only got one.

>>3964645
He's not a protagonist at all.

1. Taichi (Cross Chanel)
2. Tsukasa (Swan Song)
3. Takeshi (Ever17)
4. Junker (Planetarian)
5. Shirou (FSN)

Fun fact: I actually used to hate Taichi before I started understanding him on a deeper level.

>>3964651
He saved the day in the Good Ending and killed himself (and became god). And he's not the protagonist?

>>3964745
Because the game is mainly about Fuminori.

>>3964745
No, good end is the one with Fuminori going to the nuthouse. You described the bad end.

>>3964762
>Fuminori going to the nuthouse

And Saya is still at large, and she's gonna take over the world eventually.

Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight, Good End!

>>3964762
There are no good or bad ends in Saya. I thought we all agreed on this.

Kouhei from ONE definitely

In no order:

-Emiya Shirou (Fate/stay night)
-Morita Kenichi (Sharin no Kuni, Himawari no Shoujo)
-Nishijou Takumi (Chaos;Head)
-Maebara Keiichi (Higurashi no Naku Koro ni)
-Tohno Shiki (Tsukihime)

Kou (Baldr Sky)
Keichi (Sharin)
Kyousuke (Gsen)
Kaito (Akatsuki no Goei)
Gii (Inganock)

1 Blick Winkel - you know it to be true fuckers
2. Rance
3. Takumi
4. Emiya Shirou
5. Junker

>>3964840
>1 Blick Winkel - you know it to be true fuckers
Does the thing even have a character to begin with ?
It's mostly either the kid or Takeshi, until the last scenes he doesn't even get to think, let alone talk.

Kazuki from "Hello, World.".

>>3964840
>Blick Winkel
Ah, touché.

Top list are so Gaia of you, /jp/.

>>3964851
Blick Winkel IS the player, a being from a different dimension.

1. Makoto Ito
2. Makoto Ito
3. Makoto Ito
4. Makoto Ito
5. Makoto Ito

1. Rance(Sengoku Rance, etc) because he acts like he owns the whole world.

2. Tomoya(Clannad). He's a true asshole, just like me. Sunohara bullying scenes are the best.

3. Hakuoro(Utawarerumono) because being a god and having a harem is awesome.

Instead of 4. and 5., have some last two:

n. Emiya Shirou(F/SN) because he's a moralfag and too much of a faggot to go for the pussy when it's hanging in front of him.

n-1. Whoever was the protagonist in YMK because he's slow as fuck in Aeka's route and watches idly for ages before starting to help her. "Hey, we've already fucked a few times but I'll sit on my ass and watch you get bullied! ^_^"

>>3963883
>1. Shirou (Fate/Stay Night)
Really?

Fate/Stay Night was the first VN I ever read, and Shirou still annoyed the fuck out of me.

>>3964995
All his "Arcger tendencies" shone through on several occasions during the entire novel (well perhaps not so much during Fate) and the battle withing himself tearing him towards different paths makes him a very interesting character imo.
And I don't really find it wrong to consider Archer Emiya Shirou as well. TMs world is filled with alternate worlds and ending either way and it isn'treally as if Fate, UBW, HF or Steelmind shirou is like any of the other ones either way, adding Archer just adds another one and if one should really be able to feel the Archer within Shirou either way.

>>3964995
Yes really. I'm not sure what F/SN being your first VN has to do with anything. It wasn't mine.

We got Hakuoro responses but no Arawn responses?

Tearing a man to death with your fingernails as reward from resurrecting you from a death lasting ages isn't awesome enough for you guys?

Gods never die. We only sleep.

To all the people that have chosen Shirou.

lol.

1. Kenichi, Sharin no Kuni
2. Gii, Nigacock
3. Rance
4. Tsukasa, Swan Song
5. Shirou, FSN

1- Takeshi/Syousuke/Hayato/Kagura/Youji (Oretsuba)

2-Kazuki (Hello, World)

3-Kageaki (Muramasa)

4-Kenichi (Sharin no Kuni)

5-Tomo (Ruitomo)

>>3964995
Just because we are on 4chan doesn't mean we look down upon morals. There is nothing wrong with moralfag characters, if that's what you are implying.

1. Kenichi (Sharin)
2. Reiji (Phantom)
3. Taichi (Cross Channel)
4. Battler (Umineko)
5. The junker (Planetarian)

Kyousuke will probably be up there when I finish G-Senjou though.

1. Takeshi from Ever17
2. Taichi from CC
3. Junker from Planetarian
4. Kenichi from Sharin
5. Rance from Bible Black

Takeshi isn't really that special except for being a really fun guy, but he was the first guy I played as so I have a special keenness to him.

1. Saya (Saya no Uta)
all others were shit

>>3965278
This thread is about protagonists, you moron.

>>3965241
Not what I was implying at all. Had more to do with him being extremely dense most of the time.

>>3965341
That's what you get for being a miserable pile of swords.

>>3965341
He's just socially really inept.

>>3965535
And retarded

>>3965548
Not really, when it comes to logic in normal situations he isn't that stupid. His delusions just cloud his mind.

>>3965559
Just because his stupidity is remarkably overshadowed by his naivety does not mean it's not there.

RANCE
RANCE
RANCE
RANCE
RANCE

>>3965559
>He somehow seems oblivious to the fact that he summoned one of the world's greatest swordsmen in order to fight his battles, and instead espouses that he, a random teenage reject, can take her place. Never mind that Saber also is armed with an invisible sword (which randomly becomes visible later in the series), full plate mail, and magical abilities - Shirou is going to protect her!

>>3965548
All trolling aside, I never actually got this.
If people are calling him retarded for any other reason besides trolling then it is basically beyond me.

He barely has a real sense of self, amking him completely miss things in social situations focused on him. But that alone doesn't really make one retarded, low/no self-esteem != dumb/retarded.
Other than that I got the impression that he was actually quite a good "people knower".
He saw right through Rin's layers of masks and facades.
He basically understood all of Saber after having her as his servant, he just didn't want to accept her oppinions/thoughts until the very end of fates true end.
He never misunderstood Sakura, he just wasn't ready for such a relationship at the story's start, yet again cause of near no sense of self, it was in fact almost the other way around later and Shirou even pointed it out to Sakura that she was a bit slow in realizing that such an relationship had since long been accepted.
He was one of the few who understood Kotomine, granted that he is a really weirdone but still.
He somewhat understood that something was really off with Shinji and Sakura but he didn't really push it enough due to respect for Sakura.
He could even communicate and understand Iliya, who barely even comminucated like a normal person.
He was among the first to feel that Gil was wicked beyond belief as he understood his reasoning without him really telling anyone.
He somewhat knew when and when not he could trust Lancer.
Granted that they were already somewhat connected making it easier, but he understood Archer's true nature even before RIn who had the connection of a Master/Servant relationship.

>>3965650
And the specific word Dense can be applied to situations outside of social situations and outside of those I wouldn't call him dense at all.
He was able to feel Rider attacking Rin and blocked her Nail, He could feel that something was wrong when Archer were about to shoot them when they were at the graveyard.


Either way, I would neither call him dense nor retarded.
Having near no sense of self does not equal to being dumb or anything of the sort?
Have I missed something crucial about him or is it just trolling after all?
I won't be able to reply unless this thread is still alive after a few hours, but still

1) Kenichi (Sharin no Kuni)
2) Shiki Tohno (Tsukihime)
3) Battler (Umineko)
4) Takeshi (Ever17)
5) Taichi (Cross Channel)

>>3965650
This man speaks the truth.

>>3965650
Why are you discussing with self-hating narcissistic aspie fags? Shirou is a pretty cool bro, the complete anti-thesis to the mass retarded selfish youth of today ruled and mind-controlled by popculture which is financed by the social engineers

1. Rance
2. Rance
3. Rance
4. Rance
5. Rance

I loved Shirou so much, one of my favourite characters in anything let alone a VN

>>3965757
And btw, your typical /jp/ retard would be even worse than Shinji, somewhere between WHY ME WHY ME WHY ME and being killed as the first master by your own servant.

Fags who bad mouth Shirou know that instinctively so they try compensate that by pointing out any weak points of Shirou to feel a little superior, even if only for a second.

>>3965650
You are right but 3965757 brings it to the point.

>>3965757
this so much.

I like the guy without a face

Yeah, you guys can stop now, no need to hijack this thread even further.

>>3965777
That is better than Shirou, who makes all kinds of stupid mistakes only to win always because he's the protagonist.

ITT: We list every protagonist from the few VNs we already played.

Kira (Yagami Raito, from Desu Noto)

>>3965650

I love you.

Honestly I think Shirou is a pretty well done character who gets misunderstood by certain personality types. Without sounding like a self-righteous prick, I had always idealised Shirou's mentality and saw it as something heroic and to be aspired to. If you attempt to follow such an attitude through life you end up facing (although obviously not as dramatic) the same problems Shirou faced. This meant that playing through the VN I genuinely related to the character, far moreso than I did with Shiki or the guy from chaos;head (Though I'm sure some people here relate to him). A pretty well done character, all in all.

Please note I'm not under any illusion of actually being as good a person as Shriou, I just see it as something to aspire to.

1, Kurosu Taichi ( Cross Channel )
2, Morita Kenichi ( Sharin no Kuni )
3, Ushiromiya Battler ( Umineko )
4, Shikanosuke ( KiraKira )
5, Tohno Shiki ( Tsukihime )

>>3965797
You mean including this:>>3964511?

>>3965791
>complaining about unrealistic circumstances in a VN about magic and powerlevels

>>3965650
He unable to adequatly cope to new situations (i.e. the fucken war)
And cannot take a logical approche to anything.

>>3965805
No one can be as righteous and good as Shirou, simply because Shirou is crazy, not the "going around naked and screaming" kind of crazy of course, he's a broken human being.
The whole reason behind his moral code it's his past experience surviving that big fire just before being rescued.

>>3965878

He places moral principles above base survival, what's so wrong about that? A lot of people do that.

>>3965878
He takes the approach that is logical and natural to HIM.

>>3965887

I don't think he can be considered crazy, just massively different from a normal (particularly teenage angstfag types) person. He is very idealised, but I see no reason why such a person is impossible.

>>3965909
It's the extent and thought process that leads him to these actions.
It''s not common or expected by any means.

>>3965912

He experience a horrible event in his life and so wants to prevent it ever happening again. What's so odd?

>>3965909
Nope, Shirou is bound by chains called guilty feelings, he hasn't a choice, the only life he can live it's one where he constantly saves peoples' lives to "repent" for surviving that day.
He even recognizes it himself when facing Kotomine, about how both of them are similiar.

In during another fsn argument hijack.

>>3965919
...That's NOT the problem, actually.

If you want to have a huge shitstorm about Shirou, make your own thread, faggots.

>>3965887

He's not a broken being. That's a huge god damn exaggeration, he does have survivors guilt, but thats it.

>>3965946
It's not limited just to survivor's guilt. That's part of the package.

Nishijou Takumi.
the one and only

>>3965894
It goes against life.
Also, he never plans ahead.
He never looks at the war and says "Hey, we should think of a plan. We should think of a way to win."

Ken, if just because he can become Houzuki 2.

>>3965962

Oh for fucks sake, I can't believe I took you seriously. Just because something has an easily explainable graph and is called a theory doesn't mean it's true. Yes, you might have learned about that in psychology, but I doubt it since you fail to realise that it is far from accepted truth and has many valid challenges to it. What I think is more likely is that you came across this view and realised it fits with your personal worldview and so concluded that it must be true.

I for one, think that is a load of crap. You can't define human nature and wants so easily, and I'm sure many people will have values which don't fit so nearly onto that, and there will be some where the values are in different priorities.

>>3965986
BLA BLA BLA HERP DERP

>>3965998

About the level of coherency I expected to be honest

>>3965986
I can't believe you just took me seriously.
Crap, you actually believe someone could take Maslow's pyramid and place it as fact?
You must be as retarded as Shirou, failing to see that isn't the fucken point.

Shirou fails too see the big picture.
He cannot plan in advance, and does not think in advance.
Neither has he shown any diversity in skills.
That is why he is stupid.

>>3966020

Oh, apologies if you did not mean that, there have been numerous times on 4chan where people have spouted both that and moral subjectivism as fact, and it really annoys me. However, I don't think it was unreasonable to think that you posted the picture for a reason.

I suppose that's largely true, but mainly because they have no idea where the servants are or anything. Saber and (maybe) Rin can both be considered stupid, by similar logic.

>>3966020
He has shown diversity in skills, actually.
And has academic knowledge.

Shirou doesn't even care about winning the war, why would he plan for that? His goal was always to be a white knight.

Stop hijacking the thread with your nonsense though. As much as I love him he's been discussed to death. Let it go. People will think he's retarded and dense and that's fine, just like people will still call Sanae a slut, and they'll still call Ciel shit, and they'll still say Shiki can kill servants.

>>3965986
Humans are like other life forms only biomachines

>>3965909
It's not impossible and was explaind in the game so why do we have to discuss with trolls who either have not played the game or are to incapable to understand the provided information because of Asperger's

my fav

>>3966060
I doubt Shiki can kill servants. Shiki is a mere human, he would be killed before he could approach the servant.

>>3966091
why did i bring that up

i'm sorry

>>3966032
Do want proof.
I always found him to be a bit low on available choices.
>>3966029
>Saber and (maybe) Rin
If we conclude that "Stupid" is the inability to adapt to the current situation in a fashion that puts thought and planning, excercise of the mind, to reach a destined goal, then yes, they are stupid.
Kotomine, on the other hand, is an intelligent badass.

"I almost died in a fire bawwwww" seriously, get over it. Shirou is a fucking pussy.

>>3966126
But at least he can kill Servants, unlike Shiki.

SO GUYS

SHIKI VS SHIROU WHO WOULD WIN

At least Shiki can kill chairs, unlike Shirou.

>>3966126
Well, considering the amount of shitty past experience animu characters usually have, Shirou for once has a real trauma at his back.
Near death, sorrounded by fire and people crying and dying all over the place, with a black pillar and a black sun towering in the distance as he slowly loses consciousness.
That's... bad.

>>3966162

Oh you did not just do that

Another proof how Type-moon fans can turn a good thread into shit.

>>3966162
Nasu's fight aren't dictated by power levels, only his sick mind knows.
Now stop.

>>3966171
Coulda been worse.

>>3966176

HOLOCAUST SURVIVORS HAVE NO RIGHT TO COMPLAIN I MEAN IT COULD HAVE BEEN WORSE

>>3966176
I suppose Cthulhu could've come out of the Grail and start mindfucking everyone for lols and giggles.
You kind sir, have a point.

>>3966173

This is what I hate about the Type-Moon fans, they just don't know when to stop.

No, you're just a fag that can't admit that you're wrong.

>>3966214

To be fair, that's pretty much true for fans of anything. Since they're fans, they enjoy talking about it. The main problem is that they talk about it in the wrong place.

All Type Moon fans are trolls

>>3966232
No. You faggots just can't accept that Nasu is the best writer in pretty much any genre in the past 50 years.

>>3966247
He's this age Shakespeare, if you can't see the links between Romeo&Juliet and Shirou&Sakura you are stupid.

>>3966126
You are a prime example for the group of selfish narcissistic lunatics, the
perfect proof for a degenerate society

>>3966173
Cool story bro, I bet you and your kawaii peer group were the ones who crapped this thread

The only thing this thread is missing is a religion or D&D alignment argument and it will be the worst thread ever.

But for some reason I love it

>>3966283
>I use big words so I can feel smart, even though I don't really know what they mean.

>>3966323

Not the same guy, but they're not particularly big words.

>>3966328
They're not, but I fail to see how "selfish narcissistic lunatics" applied at all there, so I'm assuming to that poster they were.

1) Tomo (Ruitomo)
2) Asuka (oretsuba)
3) Karuou (oretsuba)
4) Hayato (oretsuba)
5) Shuusuke (oretsuba)

1) Tomo (Ruitomo)
2) Asuka (oretsuba)
3) Karuo (oretsuba)
4) Hayato (oretsuba)
5) Shuusuke (oretsuba)

>>3966343
Samefagging doesn't count, even if it's a mental illness.

>>3966346
Well those are just way too awesome characters. Also 2ch agrees with me about Tomo being best protag of all times.

>>3966332

Fair enough, I guess he was referring to the sadly very popular attitude that you see in a lot of young people these days. You know, the whole 'morals are just opinions, you have to step on others to get ahead in the world' etc etc.

It's pretty sad really.

>>3966362
And on what basis can you call morals anything but opinion?

I'm not saying morality should suddenly disappear overnight, but you can't go around treating morals as if they are some universal laws of physics or something.

>>3966346
Apart of Tomo and Shuusuke, they aren't protagonists though.

1) Kaoru (Haruharo)
2) Ayumu (Yumina)
3) Shinya (Concerto Note)
4) Hayato (Oretachi ni Tsubasa wa nai)
5) Ryou (Realize)

>>3966406
Hayato is. Also I was talking about prelude.

>>3966433
Oh yeah forgot about Prelude. And I kinda missed Hayate for some reason.
The short Asuka and Karuo POV in Prelude was awesome I agree.

>>3966346
>1) Tomo (Ruitomo)

If that's what I think it is, I want this translated already. Hopefully not in a trolling situation this time.

After giving it some thoughts:

1) Kaoru (Haruharo)
2) Ayumu (Yumina)
3) Shinya (Concerto Note)
4) Hatsune (Atlach = Nacha)
5) Ryou (Realize)

1)Rance
2)Akuji
3)Yuuji
4)Varuto
5)Ferser

>>3966433
Shuu-chan topped first place in popularity poll.

>>3966380

Basically (and this is one of the things I'm studying at university so I'm not talking out of my ass here) there are several valid arguments for what you're saying (moral subjectivism) and the belief that morality is an actual definitive characteristic. These days moral subjectivism is more accepted, mainly because common sense makes people lean towards that view, but in all honesty it's still pretty much an open debate. Many argue (validly) that morality is a factual trait, while others argue it's opinon.

I don't care what you think really, my main problem is people who assume that one is true without knowing anything about the opposite view.

>>3966497
Yeah, that's fair enough. Honestly, I've never heard any good arguments for the absolute morality side of things, but it could just be that the people I've seen argue such things rarely think about it any further than that it was what they were taught when they were younger, and it "feels right" to them.

>>3966535

Yeah, it is quite important to not confuse that kind of certain morality with a kind of 'man on the street' morality, which is at best disorganised and inconsistent and at worst simply gut reactions to events. If you're interested, google moral objectivism on google and something will probably come up, I would explain a few but they tend to be very confusing and I'd probably either have to look it up or I'd get it wrong.

>>3964540

What is this?

>>3966576
Steins:Gate, dummy

>>3966574
>google moral objectivism on google
redundant.

>>3964840
I hated The Kid routes in Ever17 I felt the whole point of his prospective was to make a fool out of Takeshi and do things that are supposed to be impossible.

Anyway
1. Rance
2. Reiji (Phantom)
3. Kenichi (Sharin no Kuni)
4. Kouji (Saya, though it mainly focuses on shit about him he is still the 'eyes' you go through most of the game and therefore the protag)
5. Kurosu Taichi (Cross Channel)

>>3966619

So was your post

>>3966655
Ironic, isn't it?

>>3966650
Oh yes, since everyone is going on about Type-Moon protag's, I hated Shirou. The mentality of 'goals' does not really suit my personality and he honestly, annoyed me so much I almost stopped playing in some routes. Shiki, I liked better being more carefree. Ryougi, I dislike mainly because she doesn't even consider herself alive really, when you read her thoughts. Arika, I like most out of Type-Moon perspectives. Hardly caring about shit, unless it effects him in someway. And it matters if he is interested or not in doing something. And not only that he's cynical.

>>3966362
>Fair enough, I guess he was referring to the sadly very popular attitude that you see in a lot of young people these days. You know, the whole 'morals are just opinions, you have to step on others to get ahead in the world' etc etc.
>morals are just opinions
Well, yes, they are. If they were facts, they'd be the same across cultures. And they aren't.
>you have to step on others to get ahead in the world
As much as I'd love to say that statement is false, it's true. Helping others doesn't help you 90% of the time, and often it actually leaves YOU at a disadvantage.
It's funny how this discussion originated from a discussion about Shirou; that character is an embodiment of selflessness, always helping others and never taking advantage of them. As heroic as it may be, people only take advantage of him and he is rarely rewarded for his actions.

I'm not saying that stepping on others is the right thing to do, but if you want to get ahead in life it's something you inevitably need to do. You can try to keep the stepping on others to a minimum and try to help others as much as possible, but you will need to step on others to get ahead in life.

It happens in the most simple situations when you're not aware of it. If you go to a job interview, there will be multiple applicants. If you are the lucky person to get the job, that means all other applicants did not get the job. You effectively took the position they also tried to get. And if you try to get a higher position at your job? You'll need to deny your co-workers that position and try to be the best candidate yourself.

Unless you want to be a cleaner for the rest of your life, you'll need to step on others.

>see OP
>think "i bet it became an argument about Shirou
>/jp/ you are too predictable

I'm surprised so many people like Shiki. He's more socially dense than Shirou, and acts like a self-centered douche most of the time.

>>3966693
But they are the same across the world on important points.
Property, in Locke's sense, is valued everywhere. Endangering someone else's is looked down on everywhere.
Likewise, everywhere, helping someone whom you are able to help is lauded.

>>3966693

Ugh, I really don't have time for this. I'll answer a bit, but I'm not going to do everything.

Different cultures do disagree on moral principles at times, this is true. Are you arguing that ALL moral principles are false though? Would you argue, for example, that happiness is not inherently good? That life is not desirable? Moral codes in all societies still follow these ideas with no exceptions.
On top of that, the fact that disagreement exists doesn't mean that the values in question are false. After all, there are similar disagreements in ALL fields, many of which are still unresolved. Are they all opinions as well? It's perfectly plausible that one is right and one is wrong. You're assuming that we claim our current view of morality is the perfect, correct one.

I think there are more responses as that claim that morals are different across cultures is very common (and not valid) but that's all I can think of at the moment. It's frankly unreasonable to claim that absolutely no moral facts exist whatsoever, as no one can reasonably argue that happiness is bad etc.

1. Emiya Shirou (Fate/Stay Night)
2. Tohno Shiki (Tsukihime)
3. Rance (Rance)
4. Ushiromiya Battler (Umineko)
5. Hakuoro (Utawarerumono)

I haven't played much VN/Eroge to really have a big list, but the first three won't change.

>>3966765
>Rance
>good protagonist

>>3966747
>Property, in Locke's sense, is valued everywhere.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marxism
>Endangering someone else's is looked down on everywhere.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racial_policy_of_Nazi_Germany

>>3966755
>Are you arguing that ALL moral principles are false though?
Strawman argument. I'm arguing that all moral principles are subjective.
>Would you argue, for example, that happiness is not inherently good?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puritanism
>That life is not desirable?
Many cultures (including Nazism linked above) argued that only certain forms of life are desirable.
>You're assuming that we claim our current view of morality is the perfect, correct one.
No I'm not. Quite the opposite, in fact; our morality is subjective, and therefore wrong according to many people.
>as no one can reasonably argue that happiness is bad
Oh come on now. This is a science fiction cliche, even. 1 out of 10 SF robots argue that emotions such as happiness cloud objective judgment and are therefore detrimental. Not that I agree, but it's a valid point. Just because it's unthinkable according to your moral views doesn't mean its inherently wrong.

LOL at people naming Emiya "Hurr Durr, I must save everyone baaaw and want to become a superhero" Shirou. He's just your basic copy and paste jap protagonist. Another protag who is clueless around women? Yawn.

>>3966844
Morals are not subjective. Humans are pretty good in adapting, so doublethink plays a big role. You know something is bad but you still do it because something good or something worse for you might happen afterwards. But the fact that it's bad and you know it.

>>3966844
Marxism abolishes private property of the means of production, not personal property in the strict sense.
Also, you're uneducated, so it doesn't surprise me, but Locke defines property as encompassing one's own freedom as well as means of survival. Marxism itself was supposed to be a means to set workers free from the quasi-slavelike life which was theirs.
As for the Nazi nonsense, the jews didn't count as people for them. I specifically said someone else's Property, which entrails that said Property belongs to someone who is considered on equal grounds as others, that is, a person.

In no particular order.

Shiki
Shirou
Junker
Tomoya
Battler

I am such a faggot.

1) Ren (Dies Irae (die wiederkunft and acta est fabula))
2) Karou (oretsuba)
3) Kanata (konata yori, kanata made)
4) Akira (Abyss)
5) Miyako (oretsuba)

>>3966844
Man, I'm going to waste my evening doing this. I should point out that I don't find either view conclusive (because the views conflict and neither can prove the other completely wrong)/

Puritans are ultimately seeking happiness, they are just delaying it. Those who place objective reasoning above happiness are not neccessarily claiming that objective reasoning is moral, it seems to me that they are rather claiming that objective reasoning is more important than such things, which is a different argument altogether (Also please don't dwell too much on what actually is moral, because that's another argument entirely).

I did not say that happiness/life/whatever was the ultimate good, above all others, I merely said that it is accepted as a moral standard everywhere.
As for property, Communism was later deemed immoral, as a result of these losses, along with other inherent moral problems which were mainly linked with removal of happiness/life. Can you consider that moral advancement? Disagreement does not mean lack of factual basis.

As for life, you've made that pretty difficult to respond to, I'd probably say while they are specific, they still appreciate it as an ultimate value, and so my point stands. In addition, I don't believe the Nazis felt that morality applied in certain cases, and using them as a moral guide is pretty disastrous in itself. Perhaps that is why they felt that only those kinds of life applied? The ones worth being moral about? Then again, I can see your point there and I don't think what I'm saying is particularly convincing.

As I said, these are just my personal responses, and they won't be as strong as genuinely established ones, but it would take me hours to find relevant ones. (Although I am sure they would exist)

/jp/ - Philosophy/General

>>3966885
>the jews didn't count as people for them
>which entrails that said Property belongs to someone who is considered on equal grounds as others, that is, a person
Hah. In other words, I can't use 99.9% of cultures because almost every culture has some sort of hierarchy? Don't bullshit me.

>Also, you're uneducated,
Nice sneaky ad hominem there. I'd argue that researching stuff by yourself also counts as education, not only being told stuff by people, but that's besides the point.

>Marxism abolishes private property of the means of production, not personal property in the strict sense.
>Also, you're uneducated, so it doesn't surprise me, but Locke defines property as encompassing one's own freedom as well as means of survival.
As Wikipedia says (in before 'you use Wikipedia, your argument is invalid'):
>Locke believed that ownership of property is created by the application of labor. In addition, property precedes government and government cannot "dispose of the estates of the subjects arbitrarily."
In certain applications of Marxism, the government > all. Property means nothing to the government in those situations.

I'm going to eat for a bit, so take your time to type new arguments. I'll get back to you after dinner.

>>3966798
He is funny, does what needs to be done, and everyone ends up falling in love with him. What's not to like?

He won't be good as anything but a protagonist.. but he lets you do whatever you want, and I like to have almost full control of him. You could say it's the game I like the most but without a character such as Rance who would do anything, then you wouldn't be able to do everything you wanted.

>>3966912
"Also please don't dwell too much on what actually is moral"
I CAN SEE THE SPECTER OF KANT FLOATING OVER THIS POST

>>3966925

Dammit how did you realise I really like Kant, I was trying not to make that obvious

>>3966905
Weird list .

>>3966921
Fatal error.
In Marxism, there is no government.
Theoretical Marxism has no moral flaws unless you were to say that private ownership of means of production is moral. Which it isn't.
If you try considering the Stalinist system as Marxism, you aren't in the right at all, as the two have little in common. Moreover, the former is clearly recognised as immoral.

>>3966929
I studied philosophy a bit myself. I can see the stigma of defining morality in your post. Would you enjoy discussing moral duty and intentions ?

anarchy was here, communism is a loser

chomdawg out

>>3966943
Not this shit again. Socialism = population control. Funny how the British Empire or to be more precises round table groups from within the Empire advanced the principles of socialism and communism window-dressed with fancy religious-like mantras.

>>3966957
Whether it worked or not in the end, theory in itself bears no morals.
Also, don't mix Socialism and Communism.
Marx would be displeased.

>>3966945

I personally like Kant a lot, because his views seem to be the most reasonable and logical by far (from what I know). Basing a moral philosophy around duty and the categorical imperative seems to make a lot of sense. It doesn't take selflessness to the unreasonable point of absolute self sacrifice, and it's pretty solid in its reasoning unless you're a utilitarian type of person.

But, I personally think that stuff actually IS opinion to a large degree. I like Kant because I find it agreeable and believe his logic makes sense, others may not.

>>3966973
Not mixing anything. One is reality, the other pure fantasy not worth discussing other than by fiction.

1: Nietszche
2: Kant
3: Schopenhauer
4: Plato
5: Archimedes

>>3966977
I guess I'm the utilitarian kind of guy you mentioned. I find it impossible to act morally following Kant's definition.
I see profit in every one of my actions and wouldn't act if I had nothing to gain, be it physically or mentally (as in being satisfied or proud of myself).
I find Mill's teachings to be easier to observe.

>>3967023
I don't see Wittgenstein in that list.

Oh how cute, NEET dropouts pretending to be scholars.

Teehee.

>>3967032
Wanna go out with me?

>>3967036
She's mine,faggot.
Go get your own bitch.

>>3967036
I'll go out with you.

>>3967048
NO! Go out with me !

I just stepped on cat puke.

Not cool.

>>3967063
But Anonymous-kun, I already promised Anonymous-kun to go out with him...

>>3967076
I love you.

>>3967079
No, I love him.

>>3967089
I love you too.

>>3967075
I love your cat.

>>3967032

But I'm at university! I'm not a NEET!

Catlove? :3

>>3967097
I'm lost.
Who did I want to go out with ?

>>3967117

Me!

>>3967117
It was me. Hey baby.

>>3967117
Anonymous-sama, I think.

>>3967117
It was me.

>>3967120
Let's just all go out together, as friends.

>>3967130
Can we have sex? Please??

>>3967130
But I don't know if I can be content with just being friends...

>>3967130

Story of my life

so ronery ;_;

This thread is awesome.

>>3966912
>Communism was later deemed immoral
Okay, it was fun. I'm not discussing shit with somebody who spouts nonsense like this. How can you possibly expect to discuss shit like this if you have such one-sided views? Seriously...

>>3966943
I'm not discussing Marxism. I'm discussing societies based on and influenced by Marxism. And most (all?) of them have governments.

>>3967032
NEETs have all the time to observe and study. It could be argued that NEETs actually have certain advantages over wageslave scholars.

And in case anyone was wondering, I'm an utilitarian.

>>3967156
You... you ruined it.

>>3967156

Hey, my views don't matter. All I'm pointing out is that disagreement occurred. And disagreement means nothing. Well, also that the reason behind this condemnation of immorality is that it harmed happiness and life. Whether it actually is or not isn't relevant at all.

>>3967164
That's what I'm here for, aren't I?

>>3967156
If they have a government, they aren't Marxist. At best they're extreme socialists.
Judging Marxism by states who have pretended to be Marxist without applying its foundations is wrong.

I bet all you fags that listed Shirou from FSN also happen to like Bleach and Naruro.

>>3967210
>Naruro
What is that?

>>3967210

Fuck you, Naruro is awesome!

>>3965650
It's mostly because of memes based on quotes taken out of context and fanon.

>>3967210
Cool troll, bro. Back to /a/ with you.