/jp/ - Otaku Culture

>>38325257
The oldest known religious icon found dates back to 11,000 B.C.

>>38325257
In touhou, the gods likely came to be from the earliest forms of human animism. Through time faith increased and the deities evolved, some new were born some split and some died off.

>>38325257
About as old as humanity has spiritualism, I imagine. They certainly didn't create the universe, the nature of their existence precludes that.

>>38325334
No more proof it's religious than the older Löwenmensch figurine (from at least 33000 BC).

So Heaven was created before Eirin's time. Eirin has been even alive before Tsukuyomi. She and Tsukuyomi are the founders of the Moon capital, which aperently happene hundreds of millions of years ago.

>>38325257
Very old, but also young. Wiki gives conflicting information, as it says that all Shinto gods require human faith to exist and were all born from human faith. Despite this, according to Maribel in Neo-Traditionalism of Japan, Izanagi-no-Mikoto created Japan 25 million years ago, predating humanity although he's a Shinto deity. Gods from other systems of belief may or may not follow the "need human faith" rule though, Hecatia is based off Hecate/Trivia from Greek/Roman mythology, and though she is called a goddess it's not clear if she relies on faith to exist like Shinto divinities supposedly do.

It's also worth noting that despite Shinto gods requiring human faith to exist the wiki says in the Gensokyo Timeline page that "the gods created the world" ~4.6 billion years ago.[1] Who specifically these gods are is unknown, but if it's true then the gods are, at the very least, older than the world itself. Not all of them of course, but some of them.



[1]Side Note - Why the FUCK is the source for "gods made the world" on the Gensokyo Timeline page on the Wiki just "Scarlet Weather Rhapsody - Ending 2"? What's Ending 2 supposed to be? It's not Marisa's ending although she's listed as #2 on the SWR Story page, it's not Yukari's or Alice's ending even though they're both the "second" selectable characters in a linked and unlinked SWR game, so who the fuck is it? I've gone through every damn ending of SWR on Youtube and not a SINGLE ONE mentions this, so where the HELL is this said in canon???

>>38326950
>which aperently happene hundreds of millions of years ago.
Didn't Eirin and the gang leave the Earth and go on to establish the Lunar Capital only a few thousand years ago?

>>38327545
Aperently Zun was drunk when he wrote that part so we're not sure if it's canon or not.

>>38325334
Man, it must have sucked for the powerful and intelligent Gods to realise that they only exist because some hairless Monkey was afraid of Lightning.

>>38328606
I mean, Hecatia took it pretty well at least.

>>38327087
It is Marisa's ending.

>>38325257
Know this doesn't relate to anything lore related, but I have to say this. That is single handily the worse ceratopsians depiction I've ever seen, even the early 1900 depiction were better than that hideous thing.

>>38329490
I'm not quite sure what you're talking about. Mind linking it to me?

>>38325257
It depends on what kind of god it is. Some gods are born from human influence, necessities, and faiths, and therefore can't be older than a few million years old.
Some gods, like Eirin, are ultra old because they are creator deities are are the reason why certain things exist.
From generally oldest to newest, the types of gods in 2hu can basically be divided into:
- Gods that are the answers to how/why/what/when/where questions to things (Eirin, probably Misumaru, probably Okina)
- Gods that exist from pure faith (Suwako, Kanako)
- Gods that simply exist in certain objects (Aki Sisters)
- Transcended from humans (Sanae)
The answer is just there's a lot of types and there's no catch-all answer.

>>38325437
>>38329923
So which one is it?

>>38325257
since this is a lore thread i'd like to ask how the fuck magic works in relation to science? tenshi mentions in SWR that keystones work by pressing on the head of a giant oarfish underground, is this a metaphor for something or is there legitimately a giant oarfish underground that causes all earthquakes? or how in WaHH kasen mentions the big dipper constellation is actually a dragon (which would make it absolutely enormous). or rinnosuke insisting that the shellfish fossils reimu found were actually dragon bones in curiosities of lotus asia.
are any of these actually true, or is it metaphor or just completely wrong? i know one of the reasons magic and youkai died off in the outside was because of accurate scientific knowledge, so are earthquakes caused by plate tectonics or a giant fucking underground catfish? is the big dipper constellation just some stars arranged in a cool shape from our perspective or is it actually a gigantic light-years long dragon on its way to devour another star? were the fossils reimu found just that, shellfish fossils, and her deduction that gensokyo was once underwater correct (which is true according to the outside world's science) or was rinnosuke correct with his assertion that they were actually dragon bones?

>>38334192
From what I've seen Scientific Explanation > Religious/Magical/Mystical Explanation. Every time Science comes up with an answer to a question on how the World works, that answer becomes the correct one. If Science doesn't have an answer/isn't aware of it's existence/cannot disprove it then the Magic/Religious one is the correct one (atleast until a Scientific answer is found).

The best example for this kind of situation is the after life. Science doesn't have an answer on what happens after death, it cannot conduct experiments to find out and cannot disprove the answer Religion provides which makes the Religious answer the correct one by default.

>>38325257
they're all hags, sorry

>>38334192
Both are views are correct. They are just different ways of interpreting the same ineffable truth.

>>38337387
In what way does plate tectonics causes earthquakes mean the same thing as giant underground fish causes earthquakes.

In what way does big dipper is actually a dragon that will one day devour the North Star mean the same thing as big dipper is a constellation of stars that are in a cool shape from a person on earth's perspective.

In what way does shellfish fossils found on land = this area was once underwater mean the same thing as shellfish fossils are actually dragon bones that will one day resurrect and turn into the incarnation of a god.

>>38337485
Plate tectonics are emanations of a certain pataphysical truth. Giant underground fish are emination of the same certain pataphysical truth. It manifests differently based on the lens you use to interpret reality. Emanation is always sub-truth but not lie. You need to realize that physical "things" are just instantiations of the meta-contextual reality-matrix. They aren't 'real' so much as they are consequences of the elaboration of reality.

>>38337520
>pataphysical
>meta-contextual reality-matrix
Anon what the fuck is this
I'm too low IQ for this bullshit, explain it in midwit terms.

>>38337315
>hags
hot

So Hou Yi shot down the like 10 Sun's from the Sky, one of which was Apollo. Dose that mean that the other Suns where other Gods/Goddess? Did Ra and Surya also fall? Amaterasu too?

>>38337535
Basically, think of "reality" aka the physical ream in which you live now, as the result of an interaction between A) objective Truth, and B) Your own mechanisms for assigning Meaning to Truth. A signifies divine Will, aka the 'fire' which lends 'being', and B signifies Form, aka the 'shape' which accepts 'being' aka 'fire' and results in 'reality'.

A exists across all realities, and thus is "pata"physical.
B denotes interpretation of "pata"physical "Truth", which varies as Form varies.

A is omni-uni-versal, whereas B is omni-vari-versal.

So thus, an adherent of the so-called Laws of Physics, may imagine the originating force of the movement of earth as being a formless spirit called "plate tectonics". Which allows certain interactions but disallows others. Whereas the adherent of animism may imagine the originating force of the movement of earth as a great fish. Which allows certain interactions which are impossible under the modern Sciences but disallows others. Both are descriptions of the same force, but through different lenses.

>>38337315
I'm fine with it. 99.9% of the non Human 2hus are hags.

>>38327087
The whole power = worship should also apply to the Egyptian Pantheon since the remember the story where Ra got old and senile which lead to Humanity stop respecting and worship him which made him a weaker.

Although Egyptian Gods won't dissappear if they don't get worship, they just get weaker.

>>38329824
I don't quite remember where, but I think it was mentioned somewhere she dresses like a fashion disaster because she's trying to appeal to teenagers. Could be a theory of mine I confused for canon though.

>>38334192
Science is correct, but since humans are capable of shaping the universe with their thoughts techiancly magic is also correct.

>>38338228
Does make me wonder what the other pantheons are doing. Egyptians are probably too weak to do much of anything. Greeks are seemingly still fine. Norse gods seem to all be dead, unless flandere and remilia got their stuff by asking.

>>38338782
Was it anywhere stated that the weapons Flan and Remi have are the real ones? They could be simple replicas

>>38339086
I kind of assumed they where because, well, why not? I mean, I guess Remilia is chuuni enough to name her weapons after Norse mythology.

It also feeds into my headcanon that Remilia and Flandre are from Scandinavia.

>>38339086
Does she even have a spear in canon? AFAIK she only had a spellcard named after Gungnir
Flandre at least is frequently depicted with her Laevateinn wand thing, but Remilia never has with Gungnir I think?

>>38338782

The other gods and pantheons have probably found refuge and are isolated in hell under the wing of Lucifer and Beelzebub or Hecabitch.


(They probably only had this choice, as the other was probably see female goddesses like Aphrodite become a "hole feels good to cum" for Allah or suffer at the hands of the Teuton Knights or Templars in a Crusade.)

>>38339214
>>38339256
Yeah they are mostly fakes/replicas then. Either that or Ragnarok already happened and now all thier shit can be finde lying around in Scandinavian and Germany.

>>38339256
>Remilia never has with Gungnir I think
It is canon

>>38339483
>A spell card that throws danmaku at such ultrahigh speeds that it turns into a sharp spear.
But does she actually own a spear???

>>38339483
So it's just Remilia being a Chuuni again? I'm guessing the same thing can be said about Flan too?

>>38339595
No, it seems like it's just Danmaku named after Odins Spear.

>>38339611
I guess so

>>38339729
> Can't swing a big sword
Guts > Flandre?

>>38339385
Well, ZUN is a huge SMT fan.

>>38339452
That would be my guess. Ragnarok already happened and Remilia just looted some artifacts.

>>38339385
>see female goddesses like Aphrodite become a "hole feels good to cum" for Allah
Imagine blowing yourself up and being told: "We ran out of virgins, so instead of thirty female virgins for one man we give thirty virgin men to one goddess"

>>38339946
HÄ!

Lore thread that's not discussing about power levels or how Reimu is evil? Hope this will last.

>>38340023
I mean, Reimu being evil isn't really lore. It's more just alternate character interpretations.

>>38341016
Reimu being evil or not was discussed quite thoroughly in the grimsokyo thread that ended a few days ago, tho some of the people from there are continuing in the tier list thread (well more like the one anon that's adamant on her being evil is posting there and others are paraphrasing the counterpoints from the grimsokyo thread.)

>>38341106
I was also the same idiot who response to him in both threads. Stupid since I'm a Grimsokyofag myself, but theres such thing as too much exaggeration

>>38339867
If (>>38339483) and (>>38339729) are anything to go by, then they're not the real deal. It's most likely just Remilia being a Chuuni again, like the whole "I'm a descended of Vlad the Impaler, THE Dracula" thingy.

So, what's the purpose of the Netherworld again? The fuck are the dead souls doing there? Is it the Eastern equivalent to purgatory?

>>38344056
According to PMiSS, its basically a waiting zone for kind souls to either reincarnate or go to heaven, but
>Upon nirvana, one can go to Heaven, but Heaven is already full, so I hear that nirvana is restricted now

>>38344302
>Heaven is already full
wasnt this exposed as bullshit in SWR? heaven was just full of lazy indolent assholes. hell was once full too and they went out to go make a separate dimension and shit, but heaven cant do the same?

>>38344712
Yeah it was bullshit. The Celestials are full of shit and hypocrites who preach one thing and do the other. They are just like the Lunarians only on Earth.

>>38334192
Science is correct, and when confronted with FACTS and LOGIC supernatural beings wither away into nonbeing

>>38337485
>>38334192
Both science and magic are beliefs.
The Outside World believes earthquakes are caused by tectonic plates, so they are for us. Gensokyo believes earthquakes are caused by a catfish, so they are for them.
Your viewpoint on life shapes your own world, a lot more than you might think.

An interesting distinction though is that the Human Village discusses youkai and rumors among each other. You've never seen a tectonic plate have you? Nor have you seen how germs cause disease or how storms are formed. You and all humans like you were simply told all that by people in power. Mankind's perception on the world has been completely altered by scientists. When they are denouncing religion, they are effectively replacing the gods to become gods of their own.

>>38351027
So is Kanako retarded when she and Sanae tries to bring science into Gensokyo?

>>38351027
Does the whole "belief shapes reality" thing make sense in the context of science though? Science as a whole relies on objective reality not shaped on human belief. For example, no one would have ever started believing in plate tectonics & continental drift (and initially, no one did; it's maker was laughed out of the scientific community and the theory wasn't commonly accepted for over 30 years after his death) unless there was evidence. By a "belief shapes reality" mindset, this evidence should have never surfaced since it just straight up didn't exist (the world worked exactly as most believed it to work) because such evidence would only surface if plate tectonics did happen regardless of what we believed. While I do take the word of the scientists who say there's tectonic plates, the theory and evidence can be individually confirmed by anyone determined enough to do so. The same can be done for germs, disease, and storms. The theories are all there, you can go make your own observations and experiments to see if they're legit. Can the same be said for the giant oarfish? If someone went on an expedition deep underground in Gensokyo to find it, or just attempted to detect it using technology or magic, could they?

Another example would be the invention of the airplane by the Wright brothers. Despite almost everyone, including the brothers themselves, having doubts that it would work, it still worked despite everyone believing otherwise. If everything happened only according to popular belief, the Wright brothers' airplane should have never flown. The fact that it did hints to objective rules that govern the world that aren't dependent on or affected by belief.

>>38351590
>Science as a whole relies on objective reality not shaped on human belief
It does if you assume that magic, as a molecular structure or force, is unique insofar that it can be affected by thought compared to the rest of matiral reality.

>>38334192
Science > Magic.

>>38337544
I bet Amaterasu is the one that remained

Science is the default explanation for most oddities in Gensokyo but when that explanation fails they invoke religion

>>38334192
Science is the correct one. The Religious/Magical/Mystical way the Word works is just a blanket created by Humanity's Delusion that cover the correct scientific way. By doing research, acquiring knowledge and spearing it one removes these blankets.

So if I were to explain how earthquakes work, would that kill this fish thingy like it did with those sound youkai?

>>38325257
She was cute

>>38367937
Suwako is always cute.

Say, what makes Hecatia Eiki's boss? She's a Goddess of Hell but I don't understand how that puts her above Eiki in terms of Status. Does this mean that Celestials are also her boss?

>>38369669
Hecatia being Eiki's boss is debatable. She's Goddess of Hell but mentions in Alternative Facts in Eastern Utopia that she's only Goddess of Hell because she's the strongest person in Hell, with the place being one giant meritocracy that makes her the goddess. She also mentions in AFiEU that she is an "outlaw" not apart of the "society" that the "Kishin and the rest" manage, presumably talking about the Ministry of Right and Wrong's rule of Hell. If she isn't a part of the Ministry like that comment implies, then she shouldn't be Eiki's boss. Despite this, Eiki calls her "Lady Hecatia" in Visionary Fairies in Shrine Chapter 5, so maybe Hecatia is above her in status simply by being strong as fuck?

>>38369821
It's so stupid that she dresses like this and is the strongest character, What the fuck.

>>38369870
When you're that strong you just don't give a fuck. I mean, what are others supposed to do? Tell the ultra deity that her outfit is weird? No one would have the balls

>>38369821
That's true, it's the law of the strong and the weak in Hell. The strong govern while the weak get culled. There's nothing the Ministry can do to deal with Hecatia, so it's likely even the original yama kings aren't strong enough to kick her butt out of hell. She's the odd one out of the bunch, and her dislike of authority probably means she's there to stay and mess with the Ministry.

>>38369821
If I remember shinto bullshit correctly Eiki's boss should be Enma Daioh but it's up to ZUN if we will ever see anything more of the ministry. It's possible that in the future games locations such as the ministry and the dragon palace will be visited, as gensokyo is pretty much out of space for new locations.
>the "Kishin and the rest" manage
Again, iirc, the Kishin are the traditional hell Oni tribes and largely unrelated to the judges

>>38369870
Why is there a moon hell? I thought people on the moon didn't die.

>>38370177
Hecatia mentions the Kishin work with the Yamas in AFiEU. Kishin are also mentioned as the subordinates of the Ten Yama's in the Yama page in Perfect Memento in Strict Sense.

>>38370245
Moonpeople die when they are killed. And Hecatia knows that moonpeople deserve a hell.

>>38370245
I wonder if Mars or Venus have their own Hell.

Speaking of Hell, does the Moon have it's own Heaven, Netherworld and Yama?

>>38369669
Where did this idea of Eiki's boss come from when they canonically never even met?

>>38373685
hecatia = goddess of hell, every hell, including gensokyo's hell.
eiki = judge of the dead (specifically gensokyo's dead)
its not too much of a stretch to make

>>38369870
I don't know if this is confirmed. But I always took it as a joke about the fact that everybody who still worships Hecatia is a goth teenager.

>>38325257
where's this pic from? a zounose doujin?

>>38380446
"Suwako VS Space Suwako" by Yakumi Sarai

>>38373740
>hecatia = goddess of hell, every hell, including gensokyo's hell.

I still refuse this goddamed teenager is goddess of every bloody hell.

(Please Abrahamic God's both YHWH and Allah, may she's just ruler of insignificant hells of dead religions.)

>>38382141
God isn't in charge of Hell. It's a place defined by the absence of his light, same for Islamic hell. Even Lucifer isn't actually in charge, it's just his favorite rampage spot.

Hecatia actually mentions that several people in hell WANT to invade Gensokyo or destroy the universe. Which leads me to believe she's basically keeping charge of the place with permission or support of higher deities.

>>38382355
>Hecatia actually mentions that several people in hell WANT to invade Gensokyo or destroy the universe.

Ok, Maybe she's being successful in protecting Gensokyo, but protect the universe and earth she's being a bit of a failure. Not saying she's bad at it, but she could be better you know.

>>38382428
She's protecting the universe from the things in Hell. Unless Earth in the Touhou universe recently suffered from a massive hell invasion, she seems to be doing a decent job.

Wait a minute...If hecatia is stopping certain people from going out of hell and destroy the universe or Gensokyo then...does this means there's someone worse than Stalin, Mao, Hitler, Himmler, Robespierre and Pol pot united in an amalgamation just waiting for shit happen in hell so it can get out? Holy shit!

>>38382484
Wasn't exorcism on the rise in 2019? What happened?

>>38351260
She wants the benefits of scientific progress while also trying to "exist" as a magical being, at least judging by her actions alone

>>38382515
Wasn't (or isn't) exorcism on the rise these last few years?

>>38382515
Nah. It's probably just a Shin Megami Tensei reference.

>>38382484
Wasn't (or isn't) exorcism on the rise these last few years?

>>38382716
Oh...

>>38382576
I think she also has ambitions to un-seat the Youkai sages. She believes she can create a world where she rules as some kind of science goddess. Similar to the lunarian society.

>>38382717
Yes. But those are mostly just petty.

>Haha, I'm going to posses this woman and have her call her husband a bad person.

>>38382737
Hehe :)

>>38382716
Most likely. ZUN seems to be quite the fan of it.

>>38382576
>>38382728
Huh so she is retarded after all. If I were her I would just bring enough technology to at least make the mountain prosper, like that case with the cable car but not to the point that it would change the villager's life completely as it will decline faith in Gods and Sanae's miracle. Unseat the sages? Okina can just erase a species from Gensokyo again to show off her power

>>38389209
>not to the point that it would change the villager's life completely as it will decline faith in Gods and Sanae's miracle.
Why would technology arbitrarily make faith in Gods fall? The Lunar Capital gets by just fine by striking a balance between technology/science and faith.

>>38389829
Why pray for your crops to grow well when you can just use fertilisers? Why pray to Gods for rain when you can either create artificial rain or have an alternative water resources enough to last for a drought season? If a disaster strikes the village again in the future, will they beg and pray to God again, or build a technology to solve the disaster?

>>38389940
Because Gods will NOT stop running a protection racket, where they protect you from themselves. Fertilisers? How about no fucking rain ever. Artificial rain/reservoires? Good, while you were busy doing that, pests and/or youkai butchered your harvest. Or maybe another disaster. Or another. And when it's either "Please grant us a good harvest X-sama" or starvation, just how much will a god demand for their service?

>>38389940
>Why pray for your crops to grow well when you can just use fertilisers?
I doubt any modern fertilizer works as well as an actual god's blessing, furthermore actually creating fertilizer requires a lot more work and knowhow than just praying for a god's blessing.
>Why pray to Gods for rain when you can either create artificial rain or have an alternative water resources enough to last for a drought season?
Besides the lunarians, who the hell has the technology to create artificial rain?
Ok I just googled it and apparently we do have technology to at least increase precipitation in an area (cloud seeding), but still praying for a god's blessing is far more convenient.
>If a disaster strikes the village again in the future, will they beg and pray to God again, or build a technology to solve the disaster?
Depends on what type of disaster we're talking about here. Even today humans of the Outside World are still subject to the whim of nature with earthquakes and tornados and wildfires and shit, but Gensokyo humans can just pray to a god to make that shit never happen. Even if they experience some industrial revolution I sincerely doubt technology will at any time soon be as effective, fast-acting, and convenient as just praying for a god's blessing.
>>38390728
Please do remember that the Gods need humans just as much, or even moreso, than humans need them. A god with no faith will wither away, and if you're a dick god then all it takes is for one god to have better terms for all your faith to dry up. The gods gain little from being dicks

>>38390759
>The gods gain little from being dicks
The gods gain devoted worshippers from being dicks. No god wants hubris, arrogance before the gods to become new standard.

>>38328507
drunk canon is peak canon, silly anon

If the Gods are so influencal and important to human lifestyle then how come they got completely fucked over in the Outside World?

The same goes with the Youkai, why can't they simply flex their power or show themselves to make humans believe?

>>38390804
Right and much like the Yamabiko, it will take a single rumour/scientific explanation to completely fuck over the Gods or Youkai. All their lives are on thinn Ice. It's why the Youkai are so paranoid and protective when it comes to the Human Village.

>>38392404
If you dont mind me entering headcanon area, they probably can't show themselves in mass public since unlike Gensokyo, they'll get outnumbered and will get killed since humans have strong modern weapons. So they have the option to show themselves to isolated humans, but unlike Gensokyo, people will dismiss the youkai sightings away with scientific explanations. Meanwhile in Gensokyo the humans who do deal with youkais indirectly help them spread fear of youkais among humans(Akyuu) and the fear is confirmed when evangelists(Reimu/Sanae) or opportunists(Marisa/Sakuya) takes the youkais out and claimed their achievements. Even if youkais become a threat in the outside world, government would just try to hide it as much as possible, like they did with Lunar wars.

>>38392404
The simple answer is, don't think about it. It's the one big plot hole running through the touhou world and really, there is no good way to explain it, so it's best left alone.

>>38392404
Technology improves at an exponential rate and so does the corresponding effect on the envrionment and modes of human living. At some point it can be assumed that it simply outpaced the more static traditions and folk beliefs of old. \

>>38392404
In the case of Gods, I would say there isn't much to assume they are actually completely fucked over yet. The likes of Amaterasu, YHVH, or Allah are still doing mostly fine. If that changes it's mostly because they are too well natured to simply go full old testament god to stop the secularization of society as a whole.

As for the Youkai, and I know this is also somewhat guesswork, but I generally assume they would get utterly wiped out in a actual war against humanity. So, if they flexed their magic in public it would indeed increase believe in Youkai. At which point a UN coalition would permanently wipe them off the face of the planet.

>>38389209
She's hubristic and arguably trying to play with forces she doesn't quite understand. But I do think her goal is somewhat possible. Like other people have pointed out, it's possibly to find a balance. The lunarians did.

>>38393531
> YHVH, or Allah
That's the same God mate.

Roughly how old is Kosuzu? On the contrary, how old are both Reimu and Marisa? I'm sure there's no concrete number, but using their appearance and the way they're portrayed through all the canon media, what is the best estimation?

>>38393653
Allah is supposed to be THVH upgrade, it is implied that he (?) is and always was allknowing. Which is stupid because then why are two angels sent to Soddom and Gomorrah (or Lût in islamic translation)

>>38394400
I would say Kosuzu is in her early teen years while Marisa and Reimu are late teens/early 20s.

>>38394788
Reimu should really start looking into marriage and producing a heir already. I get that your average villager would literally rather die than marry her, but I'm sure Yukari could arrange something with a outsider.

>>38394400
https://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Gensokyo_Timeline#Present_era
This page says EoSD happened in 2003, about. How old do you reckon Reimu was then?

>>38394830
Well, considering how old she seems now...

Four years old.

>>38394400
Jesus Christ, Rinnosuke is one tall motherfucker and Marisa is a freakin Gremlin. I wonder how small the Fairies are.

>"It's deplorable that some humans have forgotten their fear of youkai and are trying to drive them out of Gensokyo. Currently, there is a state of balance between the humans and the youkai here. In fact, I (being half-human, half-beast) am a personification of that ideal. If that give-and-take balance is destroyed, Gensokyo would collapse overnight. Even if many people now think of youkai as they used to be, these memories can fade in 20 years when the next generation comes about. The youkai are no longer rivals. Despite this, the humans have arbitrarily decided to do away with them. Humans should not be searching for past history, but passing history down the generational line instead. That's much more important."
From 'The Truth about the Enigmatic History Society' in "Bohemian Archive in Japanese Red"

>It's deplorable that some humans have forgotten their fear of youkai and are trying to drive them out of Gensokyo.
Is it really Keine? How is this "deplorable" in any way or form?
>Currently, there is a state of balance between the humans and the youkai here.
Balance is not synonymous with good.
>In fact, I (being half-human, half-beast) am a personification of that ideal.
Given that the concept of therianthropy has existed for thousands of years at this point I doubt that.
>If that give-and-take balance is destroyed, Gensokyo would collapse overnight.
...And? Whenever a character mentions "but we HAVE to do this or gensokyo would collapse!" I wonder if they ask themselves who would really detriment if Gensokyo collapsed? The humans would at worst have worse medical care and less protection from natural disasters. The ones who really detriment from Gensokyo's collapsing with be the non-humans, so why should the humans care about it?
>Even if many people now think of youkai as they used to be, these memories can fade in 20 years when the next generation comes about.
Is she really saying that we should ignore all their past actions and pretend they never happened? Keine is definitely on a pro-youkai payroll.
>The youkai are no longer rivals.
You're right, they're the overlords and the humans are the exploited peons.
>Despite this, the humans have arbitrarily decided to do away with them.
A good decision that they unfortunately will never be able to realize.
>Humans should not be searching for past history, but passing history down the generational line instead.
"Please forget everything they've done and DO NOT look into this place's history, pretend that this is year 0 and there is no history behind you."

>>38396148
And she's in charge of the education of tge Human Village? Christ they are fucked beyond repair.

>>38396148
To be fair, Bohemian was written in a time in the lore when Gensokyo was actually still seemingly a pretty happy place. So, Keine's reaction does make a bit more sense (Still odd though considering how she acts in IN).

With the current lore it is lot less justifiable. I suppose I can understand her worry about gensokyo collapsing simply because she correctly understands she would probably be killed if that happened. It's a bit more justifiable than somebody like Reimu or Marisa, who would at worst just have to find a new non magical job.

>>38394400
This image always fucking sends me. Why is Marisa so fucking puny.

>>38397715
I though she and Reimu were in the 150-155 range, has ZUN ever stated any canon height for any of the characters?

>>38396148
As >>38396594 said, BAiJR was written very early on, and its clear that ZUN changed mind on the nature of gensokyo during the early days. The current lore we are familiar with, a la fear farm and power through faith and belief, would only begin being established starting in the 2nd windows generation of games (MoF onwards).
In the current context Keine seems like an evil bastard willingly pulling the wool over the peoples eyes, especially fucked since she is a teacher. However, back then its likely that gensokyo was just meant to be a land where humans and youkai coexist under a fragile balance.
ZUN really wasn't looking to write any big plot or lore at the time, and even the tone of the games wasn't set in stone (PC-98 is largely playful in tone but youkai do get exterminated, EoSD overall has a more sinister tone with everyone talking about killing or eating Reimu and the heavy implication that Sakuya kills humans that intrude into the mansion, in PCB Youmu is autistic enough to actually try and kill the protags for the spring they carry but overall it's very dream like). Keep in mind that at the time he didn't think he would make any games in the project past IN.

>>38394830
Wtf Reimu is a HAG???

>>38325257
Native gods arent that old in comparison, eirin implies she is older than humanity at least, creator gods and the like are probably as old as life on earth.
>>38344049
Remilia's seem to be fake but i wonder if flandre is real, the wand/sword thing is so weird and flandre don't see the type to lie about a weapon name just to look cool.
>>38396148
>It's deplorable that some humans have forgotten their fear of youkai and are trying to drive them out of Gensokyo.
Honestly forgetting the fear of unknown is a mistake.
>>38397715
>>38397761
They are small japanese teenagers, they can be quite small even as a adult, just look at aoi yuuki

>>38395552
Very smol

>>38369870
Is there something wrong with it?

>>38396148
>>38397961
In addition to this, I have a feeling that translation isn’t very good and a lot of nuance is lost

>>38398676
Or would you rather have her wear something like this?

We do know crow tengu lay eggs, but i wonder if wolf tengu does live birth because wolfs are mammals

>>38398905
>Crow Tengu lay eggs
Poor Aya...

>i wonder if wolf tengu does live birth because wolfs are mammals
Probably. I don't know. I don't think Youkai reproduce at all unless a human is involved.

>>38398703
Yes.

>>38398905
Wolves usuallly have litters as large as 8 cubs.

Imagine.

>>38398633
>Honestly forgetting the fear of unknown is a mistake.
Nah. Fear of the unkown is childish.

The known is way more scary anyway.

>>38398981
>Fear of the unkown is childish.
Maybe for you, not having that fear makes you act stupid, you shouldn't let it stop you, but it makes you more careful

There's just two things I want answered one day.
What the hell made sweet little Maribel into the monster that is Yukari? What happened to Renko?

>>38399003
We dont even know if yukari and maribel are the same person or if there is some more clusterfuck about it.
>What happened to Renko?
She don't even exist yet.

>>38399012
>We dont even know if yukari and maribel are the same person or if there is some more clusterfuck about it.
I think it's pretty clear with the whole Hearn > Yakumo thing.

>>38399048
Yes but that dont mean she is the same person, it mean a lot of things from the absurd like yukari being a clone of maribel from the future to more grunded like yukari being maribel's future reincarnation.
Nothing is clear until it is.

>>38395552
>>38398652
>I wonder how small the Fairies are.
According to Akyuu, typically less than the height of a 10 year old at max down to the side of being able to fit in the palm of your hand. According to Lily White's entry in the same work, a child was able to catch and restrain her. According to Hirasaka, he tried to keep the fairies in his work about the size of 5-6 year olds.

>>38397761
Marisa has been stated to look younger than Reimu, so however small Reimu is Marisa is smaller.

>>38369870
What's stupid is that some armpit flashing miko wearing a frog headband gets to say that her outfit is weird.

>>38399087
>5-6 year olds.
So 115cm more or less, at least the average.

>>38399111
Jap or western ones?

>>38399124
Fairies are a Western Concept but they are in Japane so it could be either one of them.

>>38399150
I meant is that the average height of 5-6 year olds in the west or in Japan

>>38399124
>>38399150
19th Century Jap most likely since that's what Akyuu is familiar with and used as a measurement

On the topic of heights
>Fairly Tall: Reimu, Yuyuko, Alice, Letty, Ran
>Fairly Short: Marisa, Youmu, Patchouli, Lunasa, Merlin

Marisa and Patchouli are in the same category, but I feel like the fandom makes Patchouli the most adult looking one more.

>>38399404
>Reimu
>Tall
I see her more as average. Truly Tall ones would be the likes of Yuugi, Rinnosuke or Kanako.

>>38399686
It says fairly tall, not tall. Also these are ZUN's words from that old email, not opinions. Alice is taller than Marisa and Patchouli as a fact.

>>38399700
They are also japanese girls so "fairly tall" is still quite small.

>>38399794
Dose that different exists at suck a young age?

>>38399794
>>38400989
The list is referring to teenagers anyway, with the tallest being the height of older teens.

You shouldn't question the gods or you might get cursed anon. Their Nature is beyond your Human Comprehension.

>>38399003
>What the hell made sweet little Maribel into the monster that is Yukari?
You can already kind of see hints in her general dissatisfaction with human society in the future. At some point something really bad is going to happen to basically destroy all of her faith in humanity, and from there it's quick trip to Darth Vader land.

>What happened to Renko?
I could see her being the thing that caused Maribel to lose faith in humanity. Most likely her getting offed by the government.

>>38399074
> to more grunded like yukari being maribel's future reincarnation.
Wouldn't that imply Yukari is going to die soon?

If Suika is supposed to be Shuten, how did she survive getting her head cut off?

>>38404847
Doesn't Gensokyo not even exist in Mariberry's time?

>>38404979
Why do you think she's so small now?

>>38405106
Uh... could be? Maribel ends up there sometimes, but it could be the Gensokyo of the past. I think she encounters some people that really should be dead in the future.

>>38405276
Can't she change her size?

How come Junko didn't kill Kaguya yet? I thought Kaguya and Chang'e are the same person

>>38405351
>Kill Kaguya
That might be a bit difficult.

>>38405351
>I thought Kaguya and Chang'e are the same person
Literally what the fuck gave you that idea

>>38405430
Isn't Chang'e also immortal just like Mokou, Eirin and Kaguya?

>>38405301
She can but even as a Gaint she looks like a kid. Atleast that what I remember.

>>38405555
I think so as well. Guess she can increase her size but she can't Un-Kid herself after getting her head cut off.

>>38404979
Kasen survived reimu making her explode, i doubt losing her head annoyed suika that much.

>>38405546
Yes and junko probably knows that, she probably don't care and would be fine using the rest of her life trying to kill chang'e.
>>38404847
I mean, yukari being after maribel, even if maribel comes later.

>>38407919
But Kasen permanently lost her arm when it was cut so it really isn't clear.

I still think that Yukari is messing with Maribel by giving her some severe hallucinations.

>>38397761
The thing is, their heights and appearance change depending on who draws them. Marisa even had random blue eyes in SSiB. it seems the artists had a lot of liberty in what they could draw. How the characters appear in print is just the artist's interpretation.

>>38407919
No offense to Reimu, but I don't quite think she can compare to some of the greatest mythic slayers in Japanese history.

>>38409480
Dose that mean that someone like Heracles is above Reimu too?

>>38410217
Yes.

>>38410217
Would he be a god? does he become a god in the myths?

>>38412215
> does he become a god in the myths?
He dose. If I remember correctly, Heracles is the God of Strength, Sports, Athletes, Heroes, Gatekeeper of Olympus and Divine Protector of Humanity

>>38412535
Interesting.
Honestly i wonder if ZUN will really use another greek god eventually? We know apollo is "dead" would be interesting if we got a artemis 2hu or something.

>>38334192
Science doesn't necessarily conflict with supernatural. Moonies have superior technology yet vague metaphysical idea of Impurity makes them completely shit themselves. Kappa are also good with technology despite being youkai. And then there's maybe-canon Yumemi who just went searching for magic because science wasn't enough.
Also let's not forget that reality itself is pretty flimsy in Touhou unlike many other fantasy setting that try to make everything supernatural very tangible and consistent. So I agree with >>38337387
and >>38351027

>>38407919
Kasen didn't get her arm back after it was chopped off.

>>38418493
Yes she did?

>>38412571
>Apollo is dead
Would be funny if the characters visit Hell and he's just chilling there.

>>38327087
>Izanagi-no-Mikoto created Japan 25 million years ago, predating humanity although he's a Shinto deity.
I once heard a theory that stuff like this is because faith can retroactively change things. If enough people believe that a long time ago the Flying Spaghetti Monster created Australia then their belief makes that true.

With how powerful belief in general is in Touhou, kind of makes you wonder why common misconceptions aren't spawning anomalies all over the place. And why no one is speccing into mind control magic.

>>38420130
>And why no one is speccing into mind control magic.
Most magicians are hyper turbo autists that have no interest in ruling the world. I'm sure the CIA would have a heart attack, out of joy, if they ever found Gensokyo. But otherwise, not much interest.

> kind of makes you wonder why common misconceptions aren't spawning anomalies all over the place
I always kind of assumed belief cancels out misbelief and vice versa.

>>38394830
It always seemed like time progresses in Gensokyo at the same rate as real life, like with how the game releases are around when they take place. Almost none of the characters age though, only being a handful of humans. The obvious example is Akyuu, but even Reimu has matured a lot over the games.
I would probably assume Reimu's about 6 in PC-98, making her about 10 in EoSD. That would make her about 30 now.

>>38420194
>I'm sure the CIA would have a heart attack, out of joy, if they ever found Gensokyo.
Belief can still spawn things in the Outside World. Kanako mentions it in Symposium of Post-mysticism, it's their "ghosts aren't real.... right?" spiritually unsure mentality that leads to the creation of Power/Mystery Spots. She even mentions that a new form of youkai may be born in the outside from fears of biodiversity extinction and extinction of cultures/customs.

>>38419336
yeah and then Reimu sliced it off and sealed it.

>>38421284
Yeah but she's in posession of it, it's just not attached. She wanted Reimu to reseal it in the first place

Also now that I think about it I like how her unsealed arm killed some people in the Outside World and it was just immediately glossed over.

>>38421405
Yeah. I wonder about how the arm killed people in the outside world. I don't think it would have physically injured anyone. It probably got into people's heads and made them depressed and gave them suicidal thoughts or something of that nature.
It would be a good explanation for how youkai could operate in the modern world and how mental illness has become such a problem.
just speculation

guideline for all you wiki niggas

How does Byakuren power her bike?

>>38423120
Magic

>>38423120
gas dood

>>38325257
My headcanon based on what ZUN officially wrote + a bit of SMT influence.
I think that Gods and Youkai to a lesser extent have always existed as vague concepts like the air, the rivers and mountains but that once mankind was born and observed the universe, their amorphous, invisible nature gained form and since then their existence is in constant flux.

>>38424675
More like the act of consciously observing the environment is what caused supernatural entities to be born.
Like in the double slit experiment, by simply measuring electrons, their properties changed. By observing and interacting with nature, youkai and other entities were born.

>>38399003
maribel easily would turn into someone like yukari if she had the 1500+ years yukari had to found gensokyo to the modern day. All things considered whatever happened to renko is actually irrelevant as whatever she does after that fact doesn't matter unless she's actually instrumental to the hakurei shrine.

>>38425461
What happens if Yukari kills Sumireko?

>>38399003
My headcanon is that Renko is the Hakurei god.

Why dose Yukari hate the Lunarians again?

>>38428375
Hasn't touhou clued you in that they are assholes, in general? Do you not remember Eirin would have murdered Patchouli when she was researching the lulzrocket?

>>38424876
Our world is crazy...
Could you go into more detail? Wikipedia article is too big brained for me.

>>38429274
Yukari is an asshole, murderer and kidnapper too. What I want to know is WHY Yukari hates them. She can't be doing it for a moral reason considering how bad she herself is.

>>38420379
If I remember correctly Synopsium also explains that most Youkai that are born would either die pretty quickly or end up In Gensokyo.

>>38424675
>a bit of SMT influence
To be fair, that is half of what Zun actually wrote.

>>38425906
She erases herself out of existence.

>>38430068
>What I want to know is WHY Yukari hates them.
Because they represent the opposite of her ideals. They are the lawful evil to her chaotic evil.

That and It was hinted, if not said outright, that lunarians created Youkai. Yukari is a womanchild permanently stuck in a teenager "FUCK YOU DAD" phase.

>>38429409
Okay. The double slit experiment is a really incredible one. Physicists wanted to know how electrons can be both waves and particles.

To understand the double slit experiment, you have to know what an electron is. The atom model you were taught in high school is completely wrong. electrons do not orbit the nucleus like little planets. they exist in fields or clouds called 'orbitals' and behave more like waves than true particles. However, when an atom is measured, the electron behaves like a particle and it's location can be precisely located within the orbital. https://youtu.be/6IWhRffFRc8

The original double slit experiment was conducted with light by Thomas Young in 1804. When light gets passed though a double slit, it appears as a pattern of lines on the other side because light is made up of waves. https://youtu.be/Pk6s2OlKzKQ

In 2012, physicist Stefano Frabboni decided to fire electrons at a double slit. If the electrons were waves, they would create a pattern of many lines behind the double slit. If the electrons were particles, they would just create two lines behind the double slit.
Well, simple enough. The physicists 'fired' the electrons at the double slit and it created a pattern of many lines lines behind each slit. The electrons were behaving as waves.
Next, the physicists wanted to know how the electrons behaved as waves. As the electrons passed through the double slits, they measured each electron passing through. Here is where the amazing part happens. When the electrons were being measured, they stopped behaving as waves, and they formed two lines behind each slit. When electrons were measured, they behaved like particles instead.

The very act of measuring an electron changed it's quantum properties. An electron can have any energy state, any angular momentum, and any spin (where spin is not rotation, but a property denoting how a quantum particle acts like a magnet). All the properties of an electron are completely abstract until they are measured.

By measuring a quantum particle, it's being interfered with and changed. The electron double slit experiment revealed that electrons and all subatomic objects do not have any defined properties. that is their energy, spin, angular momentum, etc. cannot be defined at all until they are interfered with. Functionally, it's properties are always abstract until they get measured. The very act of measuring something is what gives it it's properties a defined state.

>>38431205
Relating this to the world of Touhou, the existence of youkai and other supernatural entities can be explained in a somewhat scientific way. Essentially, nothing that happened on Earth was definite until humans came along to make quantitative measurements and observations of their surroundings. by making observations of the world, we created youkai.
Wind was created by tengu, because of our observations of the world around us. However as humans advanced in technology, we gained the ability to quantitively measure and explain how wind is created through heat and pressure differences in the atmosphere. By making these measurements, we interfere with the world and give Earth's properties, like atmospheric pressure, a definite state.
Now that the exact temperature and atmospheric pressures in most locations of the world are precisely measured, these temperatures and pressure differences created wind and the Tengu who had originally been creating wind lost their existence.

When we didn't measure electrons, they were waves. However when we measured their quantum properties, they became particles.
When we didn't measure heat and pressure, wind was caused by tengu. However when we began to measure and quantify these properties, they became caused by heat and pressure.
This would be how you can explain youkai and their disappearance from the outside world by scientific means.

>>38430091
Is there source for this piece of trivia I heard it many times and believe myself that this is cannon but I cannot remember from where it came from? Also about Vampires being new subtype of Oni is this canon or my rotten brain had aneurism?

>>38431890
>Is there source for this piece of trivia
if you mean the "lunarians made youkai" its mentioned by kaguya and yukari on separate occasions.
>In a manner of speaking, the moon gave birth to all youkai.
From Cage in Lunatic Runagate Chapter 5
https://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Cage_in_Lunatic_Runagate/Fifth_Chapter

>We of the moon turned some on the Earth into monsters, to regulate the Earthlings' impurity.
Said by Kaguya during the Scarlet Team's scenario in Imperishable Night.
https://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Imperishable_Night/Story/Scarlet_Team%27s_Scenario

>>38431626
YOU WON THE TOUHOU LORE BINGO!
Right on the point, fantastic

>>38430091
> Yukari is a womanchild permanently stuck in a teenager "FUCK YOU DAD" phase
Her actions make a lot more sense now.

>>38431626
This is the greatest explanation I've ever heard. Quick, somebody send it to ZUN

>>38337588
if we're talking about the nature of material reality then Platonism is the final answer: matter is a pale reflection of a higher principle which is itself a reflection of a reflection of a reflection until you reach the summit (the one, the good etc, cannot be discerned/described/visualized).

>>38431890
>Also about Vampires being new subtype of Oni is this canon or my rotten brain had aneurism?
Were you the one sperging out in the Lost Word thread? Vampires, in Touhou, are both a subtype of devils, and somewhat subject to oni weaknesses because of a pun on the character in what vampires are called. https://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Perfect_Memento_in_Strict_Sense/Vampire

>>38437491
No I don't go in Lost World threads. Well I still believe in this evidently headcanon of mine. At least I cleared it for myself that this is indeed a headcanon

>>38431890
>Also about Vampires being new subtype of Oni is this canon or my rotten brain had aneurism?
The last kanji in the Japanese word for vampire is the kanji that stands for Oni, Devil and Ogre.
I guess that's also why the SDM has its name and why its residents are generally called devils, I can imagine ZUN translating these back in the early 2000s and just sticking with the idea that vampires are just a new/foreign type of oni.

>>38437538
>No I don't go in Lost World threads.
Well it sounded a bit like this >>38426709

>>38437970
You should be aware that the oni part of the word for vampires is 鬼 while "devil" (as is used to say that vampires are devils)is 悪魔. The "SDM" is 紅魔館. While 魔 does contain 鬼, it's also the 魔 in Marisa.

>>38429274
While the Lunarians are cunts, Yukari isn't any better.

>>38431626
So, does this mean that before humans were around the Earth was a complete blank slate? Like, in the Touhou universe when a tree falls and there is nobody around to hear it, does it make any sound?

>>38442526
Yukari might be a manipulative bastard, but Lunarians will get what they want by force. Yukari kills humans only to eat. Lunarians will kill humans or youkais just because they can.

>>38443320
I would say it's the other way around. Yukari could just gap in dead corpses if she seriously felt like it, and I don't think she even needs to eat people. The Lunarians meanwhile literally die due to impurities.

Like I said elsewhere, it's Lawful Evil vs Chaotic evil.

>>38428375
You don't need a reason to hate lunarians.

>>38443386
Yukari is one of the Sage of Gensokyo.
Lunarians once planned to purifiy Gensokyo (--->kill everyone).

Lunarians are much much more evil.

>>38447797
>lunarians once planned to purify a den of evil, sin, and impurity
ok? this is a bad thing because??

>>38447797
>Lunarians wanted to destroy a murderous rotten place that feeds on the outside world like a parasite.
I mean, it would suck for the villagers. I do still think of them as lawful evil for a reason. But I can't say I don't understand the sentiment.

How technologically advanced are the kappa? I recall Ran saying in SSiB Chapter 3 that the kappa and tengu were only "half-heartedly mimicking the outside world", so I kind of assumed they were below our tech level, but then they apparently have cloaking devices, a Loch Ness monster-like submarine that can shoot lasers, a dam (or at least were working on one in WaHH? Did it ever get finished? I don't remember much about it), etc., all of which imply technology either equivalent or above the outside world's tech.

>>38449711
Kappa are following the outside world's idea of sciece fiction.

And cloaking devices are already a thing here. Faulty, and with some issues, but they exist.

>>38450101
Basically.

They will get less technologically advanced the more the outside world finds out.

>>38450101
>>38450206
Shouldn't they have spaceships and singularity-tier AI then?

>>38450224
>AI
Why bother when you can just get a familiar?

>Spaceships
The SDM managed to get a spaceship working already. Kappa don't have much of a reason to bother since where the fuck would they go? Mars?

>>38450224
Kind of.

Ran has been described as being Yukari's computer. And the SDM managed to launch one rocket-like abomination.

>>38450251
>>38450244
This spaceship wasn't technology though, it was magic and powered by the Sumiyoshi gods. It also wasn't built by kappa I think, though the lack of reason to build a spaceship makes sense.

>>38450326
>though the lack of reason to build a spaceship makes sense.
It would be funny if they tried though. Just imagine them going to Mars because they read in a science book there was water there.

>>38398676
No it sucks

>>38431626
Where do Lunarians fit into this though? They should have made the same scientific discoveries the Outside World did thousands of years ago, and despite that the world didn't change according to their observations.

>>38453395
And upset their extremely delicate "purity" upon which their immortality is based upon? Even common fish in the sea of tranquility, or having Yuyuko stroll around their goddamn capital are humongous threats.

>>38454106
I don't see how scientific observation would upset their purity, purity is primarily only upset by living beings and the things that entail (like death, disease, childbirth, etc.). And Yuyuko was a threat because she could easily kill using her power, and thus taint the pure moon with impure death, in reality she's even purer than the inhabitants of the Lunar Capital thanks to her living in the Netherworld. That's why they couldn't detect her using their usual methods with the Udonge trees.

>>38453395
I mean, they moved to the moon. We have to assume this phenomenon only occurs within a planetary space.

>>38325257
I believe that Flandre Scarlet is the God of christianity.

>>38459446
Why though? Why would "observation = definition" only apply planet-side and not everywhere? Lunarians were *technically* the ones who created youkai anyways, or at least they had a hand in their creation, as said in >>38431955.

>>38461388
Mostly out of practicality. If their are multiple sapient races in the universe only one of them would be able to define the universe. That doesn't seem to be the case.

It would also explain why different cultures have different supernatural monsters in the first place. Granted, there is a lot of overlap in Touhou. But some characters are still very much from places that are not Japan.

>>38462236
>If their are multiple sapient races in the universe only one of them would be able to define the universe
Not necessarily. Take for example the expansion of the universe. The universe is expanding exponentially, but it's expanding slower in some places and slower in others. This is why there are huge discrepancies in the Hubble Constant.
If you attribute this to multiple sapient races, you could say that different races are playing a hand in the uneven properties of the universe. Different races of life have effected the universe in different ways that have drastically changed the properties of the universe based on location.

>>38462519
Well, in that case, it's possible that the Lunarians have simply found a way to make it impossible for humans to affect their part of the moon.

>>38463148
Also, vice versa the same would be true. We already know they created Youkai to try and halt human progress. So, they wouldn't have much of a reason to gift them with actual perception.

How are the living conditions of humans in Gensokyo? Fortune Teller, who should have been rolling in cash and filling a high position in the Human Village if Kosuzu's fortune-telling business' success was anything to go by, described his life as "miserable [...] under the yoke of youkai" in comparison to the "world outside". But don't human villagers have access to extremely advanced medical care from Eientei as well as the youkai that keep them safe from natural disasters? How is their life any worse than the lives of outsiders?

>>38464060
I imagine it is pride and principle that, even if living in relative comfort, drives him to seek liberation from what he perceives to be captivity and exploitation under another power. He probably began seeing the lives of villagers like animals in a zoo. Or a farm.

>>38459990
> Flan is God
What makes you think that anon?

>>38399003
>People still focus into the puppet, when it is always in plain sight

>>38464060
Lack of technology, resources, freedom, etc. It's basically Rural Taisho era Japan with better medicine. Probably on par with North Korea by modern standards, expect without being fed a constant stream of propaganda to keep you placated.

It's not Somalia, but that's about all you can say about it. They even seem to have class disparity, poverty, alcoholism, and everything else you would expect from a backwards society. Best you can hope for is seemingly becoming a merchant. Which, considering the "People" you would trade with basically means going full Vidkun Quisling.

>>38464179
In part, but I do think there is a general difference in quality of life between modern Japan and Gensokyo. Either way, he did nothing wrong. Well, expect not murdering Reimu before transforming.

>have the ability to enter other worlds when you go to sleep
>go to some early 1800s tier shithole that is gensokyo

>>38469137
Late 1800s, not early.

>>38469137
That's just how shit this world is.

>>38469137
is this sumireko

>>38464060
I think the miserable aspect he meant is that as a villager you either work hard or you die. Gensokyo only has one village, so I'd expect 99% of the villagers to be farmers and 1% to be anything else, opening multiple rental library is Gensokyo just wouldn't be profitable for anyone involved past a certain number, the same goes for other professions, you don't need 5 metal working shops for a village, one or two is enough. Has it ever been stated how large Gensokyo population was?
Being a farmer with no modern tools fucking sucks. Add to that the fact that they are potentially under threat from youkai (as long as they're outside the village according to PMiSS, but I'm not sure if that's been retconned or not.)
Fortune teller saw the outside world, how people weren't afraid or under threat and how like 80% of work is just sitting at a computer for a few hours, if he even understand the concept of a computer in the first place (Rinnosuke sure didn't), it's easy to understand how you'd consider living in Gensokyo miserable.

Like >>38467873 said, it's medieval Japan, but slightly better. However an aspect a lot of people don't consider, especially Grimsokyofags, is that while the setting can be grim, villagers are always (for the most part) portrayed as enjoying living here, even Fortune Teller says in your pic that he realised living in Gensokyo was "miserable" only after he perceived the outside world, but it's only in comparison. Perhaps it's just out of ignorance, but none of them feel miserable and actually enjoy life there.

>>38473389
I mean, going by the official manga most of them are just kind of beaten down but otherwise fine. Their lives are largely meaningless, they suck up any info they can find from the outside world like a sponge, and they seem to understand to at least a certain extent how shitty their lives situation actually is. But, you know, it's all they ever known and they are under no delusion they can do anything about it.

It's a bit like... well, living in North Korea. I wouldn't say it's so much that they enjoy living in Gensokyo as much as they try and often succeed to do the best with what they have. They are plucky, and they kind of have to be to not just completely snap, but I think that's more a judgement on their character than on the status of Gensokyo. Some of them do just seem to straight up lose it, like the Horse Merchant or Fortune Teller, and most of the time they die very quickly. But on average, as humans living in shitty situations often do, they manage.

Old Touhou lore mentioned that there are secret societies working to end Youkai dominion of Gensokyo. But I have a hard time believing those are still a active part of the lore. What I can say is that I imagine most people that do want to change the status quo either just die, join the Buddhists/Taoists, or plot ineffectually in secret. Neither choice seems to be all that fun, but for what it's worth at least it seems to be enough. There are some very vague hints that the youth of Gensokyo all collectively have a massive death wish, but that seem to largely grow out of that.

>>38466421
>lion head
>snake tail
>rainbow wing that seal the power of destruction
>absolute power to destroy anything
>cloning ability
>the clones can get sentient also
>her subtle but almost omnipresense everywhere
Also, this clip. I'm perfectly sane. I swear.
https://youtu.be/wEwnEeq23SY

>>38473554
>There are some very vague hints that the youth of Gensokyo all collectively have a massive death wish, but that seem to largely grow out of that.
I should probably elaborate on this a bit more. My basic arguments for this are two bits from Symposium:
>https://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Symposium_of_Post-mysticism/Bunbunmaru_Newspaper_1
Specifically:
>It seems that she's just finding the training at the temple difficult, but a song with even that level of dissatisfaction has undeniably proven popular with the youth. At the time of this report, their concerts have already gathered impressive crowds of excited fairies and disaffected youkai.

While you could read this as the "youth" in question being the youkai and fairies. The fact that the songs do in fact apparently reach the human village means it could also refer to youths from the Human Village. Who, if they went to the concert, would basically be a sheep visiting a wolf convention.

Second bit is this:
>https://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Symposium_of_Post-mysticism/Nue_Houjuu
> Even running away from her is difficult, so when you see her at the Myouren Temple, don't provoke her by saying things like "Nyeh-nyeh, outcast".
While again it could just be general advice. It honestly seems too specific. Which leads me to believe people, probably youngsters from the human village, actually went up to a Youkai like Nue and yelled "Nyeh-nyeth, outcast." Which is on par with doing this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uwk6r8TJD2U

I seem to remember there being other hints of Human Villagers, specifically young villagers, doing insanely stupid shit for seemingly no reason. But, this is the main evidence I can remember off the top of my head

Imagine being Yukari. You have only two friends, one is a drunk degenerate while the other is dead. One of your colleagues sees you as a rival and obstacle while the other tells you off, rejects you and calls you a coward. Everybody else dislikes and mistrusts you. They never invites you to their gathering, festivals, parties and you have to invite yourself to those gathering else you would spend years without speak with anybody else besides your pets. The Paradies you helped create dislikes you and all in it would rather pretend you don't exist. Must be rather lonely.

>>38476407
She should stop murdering outsiders then. Most of them would probably get a kick out of befriending someone like her. Just look at how many simps she gets on this site.

>>38476407
Toyohime should have killed her while she had the chance

>>38334192
Humans are correct, always

>>38473685
Anon, why are you such a fucking pussy?

>>38478418
By not going up to people who could break me in two and mocking them?

>>38473628
Is Flandre the Demiurge?
>>38476407
Her being disliked only adds onto her yokai strength. Hate and revere her more!

>>38479261
Was it anywhere stated that dislike makes Youkai stronger or something? All I know is that fear keeps them alive and even then I don't think being more feared makes stronger.

Does Japan have any sort of mythological creatures that do anything besides kill people or curse people?

>>38487514
Despite their monstrous appearance, baku are revered as powerful forces of good, and as one of the holy protectors of mankind. Baku watch over humans and act as a guardian spirits. They feed on the dreams of humans – specifically bad dreams.
Also if you meant the youkais in Gensokyo, Alice and Reisen both have no records of attacking humans AFAIK. I think bunnies are also the only youkai clan in Gensokyo that dont attack humans too, but Tewi is still a piece of shit for selling her own kind to produce more of her kind.

>>38327087
>>38420130
Given time travel is shown to be possible in the setting, it's not impossible the Shino Gods pulled favors to insert their own additions to painting the map of prehistoria.

>>38487553
Eating human dreams probably still counts as eating part of a human. (despite that I wrote 'kill people' instead of 'eat people' since it seemed redundant)

>Reisen both have no records of attacking humans
Isn't Reisen a veteran of a war between humans and the moon?

>>38478628
Psychological damage is the most effective thing against youkai who themselves are nothing more than ideas.

>>38487693
>Eating human dreams probably still counts as eating part of a human.
She literally only eat bad dreams. She obviously cares for humans when she tried to chase the protagonists out of Dream World twice
>Isn't Reisen a veteran of a war between humans and the moon?
I mean Gensokyo, plus moon bunnies are just cannon fodders

>>38487553
Most of the fairies seem to be pretty benign. I don't think their antics actually have any true malicious intent. It's mostly just based on harmless fun and boredom.
Of all the creatures of Gensokyo, I think the fairies are the most amiable. All the other youkai are just as selfish and corruptible as humans are. Whereas the fairies just seem carefree.
Of course, some fairies in western mythology have clearly been malicious. But I don't know if eastern fairies are necessarily the same type of entity as western fairies.

>>38449711
Weren't they creating some method of harnessing nuclear power in WaHH? I remember Sanae wanted to do something similar.

>>38491755
It was Cold Fusion I believe and I think it failed. Sanae asked Reimu for something made by a Blacksmith God for it but I don't think it worked.

has eirin ever circumcised someone
what does she think about circumcision

>>38492935
I don't think Eirin is jewish

>>38492935
I can only make assumptions but
> has eirin ever circumcised someone
Considering how old she is? Probably

>what does she think about circumcision
She most likely doesn't care about it/doesn't have an opinion on it. I don't think she gives a fuck about most things we mortals worry about.

>>38493577
Lunarians are obviously Jews though.

>>38491755
It was something about Cold Fusion. They wanted to use the fact the people in the Outside Word don't believe it would work to make It work in Gensokyou.

>>38498578
>people in the outside dont believe cold fusion can work
>therefore it can work in gensokyo
The barrier of common sense opens the door for a lot of bullshit shenanigans. Do you know what chapter of WaHH this was in?

>>38498632
Wild and Horned Hermit - Volume 1 Chapter 2

>>38390728
>Because Gods will NOT stop running a protection racket, where they protect you from themselves.
So gods and youkai are actually a mafia

>>38325257
Who did suwako give her virginity to?

>>38479261
Yes, and ZUN is a prophet.

>>38483248
I was going off of the fear thing really, don't take such shitposts seriously though
>>38502426
I'll believe it

>>38502449
>Elis
>Eris
>The Goddess of Chaos Eris
Believe it. This is beyond coincidence.

>>38502241
There's no such concept for gods.

>>38502241
Probably some random Human she raped in the woods. Either way she's so old, that shit probably grow back.

>>38498632
>>38498749
>Gensykyo snatched the concept of cold fusion before it could ever become reality in real world
I WILL TRAMPLE THE SERPENT

>>38505694
Her hymen would grow back you mean

>>38506982
I thought the cold fusion thing never ended up working and the kappa abandoned it. Could be wrong. it's been a while since I read WAHH

>>38507022
Yeah that's what I meant. I probably should stop posting here while I'm drunk.

>>38506982
Cold Fusun failed in Gensokyo too if I remember correctly and just because something works in Gensokyou it doesn't mean it will not work in the Ouaide World anymore. Gensokyou isn't that influential on the Ouside World, I don't even think it has any influence whatsoever.

>>38502620
>we will never have cool characters like YuugenMagan ever again
ZUN sold his SOUL

>>38506982
Plebbit meme

>>38506982
They didn't. Also it didn't work despite having the help of three Gods on thier side.

>>38499696
Basically. Humanity doesn't need the Gods and it has overcome the Youkai without the help of the Divine. It's why I always feel like that Conversation between the three Religious Leaders when the topic of the Outside World was presented came off as them being salty that they're not needed anymore.

>>38518050
To be fair, Miko seems to be pretty pro outside world rather than salty. Which makes sense considering what she's like.

>>38431626
>>38424876
A little late, but I capped this for future lore threads

>>38518487
Saved to post on /sci/ and ask them how true that is

>>38518895
Link it

>>38518050
>>38518440
Remember though, this has caused both youkai AND gods to use humans as mere sustenance for their existence considering they need them, and the outside world has concretely shown that humanity need neither side to advance, so no matter what, both youkai and gods will hinder human development in gensokyo for the sake of their own selfish survival, that's it

Conclusion: both youkai and gods don't care about humans

>>38519752
The Gods never cared about Humanity, be it in the Outside World or Gensokyo, past or present. I haven't seen any Mythology/Religion where the Gods where actually kind, just and fair. The Gods are cruel, arrogant, hypocritical, abusive etc. They are often even worst then the Youkai or the other Monster they sent Heroes to kill.

The Gods were never were Humanities allies.

>>38491595
It's implied the fairies of Gensokyo are the degenerated descendants of deities, either literally (as in the case of Clownpiece who is inferred to be of divine heritage due to the origins of the Lampads) or from losing power like Eternity Larva.
>>38506982
Though Cold Fusion is a bust, the fact that Hihiirokane is capable of boiling water perpetually at room temperature could make it a potentially limitless source of power. If only more then a trace amount of the metal could be secure.

>>38519854
That's because benevolent gods in most pantheons get fucked over just as hard as humans: Veritas, Prometheus, Baldr and Jesus.

>>38518487
>>38518895
It needs the definition of the experiment itself. Expanding off of it. It's impossible to find the properties of any object without examining or measuring these properties first. If you wanted to measure a brick, you would just set it on a scale and it wouldn't have any effect on the actual brick itself. However on the subatomic level, when you examine and measure an object, the object itself gets changed. That's what caused the electrons in Frabboni's double slit experiment to change from waves into particles. This is also the fundamental nature of quantum entanglement.

When you measure an electron's spin, you actually give the electron it's spin. Say you have two entangled electrons. the electrons exist in a state in which their spin is undefined until someone comes along to measure it.
Say you have two golf balls. One golf ball is painted red and one is painted green. If you blindly pick one golf ball and it's green, then you automatically know the color of the other golf ball.
This is *NOT* how electrons work. when you have two entangled electrons, where one electron is spin up and the other is spin down. Their spin is undefined and null until you measure the spin of one electron.
This would be like if you had two transparent golf balls that could magically turn red or green when you look at it. It's impossible to know whether the ball is red or green until you physically look at it because it's color is literally undefined. it's null.
That is how electrons and quantum particles work. their properties are undefined/null until someone comes along to measure them. There are no hidden/undiscovered properties that could predispose these electrons to be spin up or spin down. Read the papers from John Bell, John Clauser, and Stuart Freedman who have extensively proved this.

Subatomic properties are null until measured. In Touhou, the entire universe itself is undefined and null until it's measured and observed. Youkai's powers are in essence the embodiments of undefinition and nullity regarding the properties of the universe. This is why Tengu can create wind until humans come along to measure temperature and air pressure. When we measure and observe things, the very properties of the universe itself change and cease being undefined/null.

>>38522619
In a sense, this could be what the Lunarians view as impurity. That is, the null property itself. If the Lunarians have become advanced enough to define the state of null properties at will, they become able to mold and bring a state to the universe in whichever way they see fit.
This brings a big problem, however. The universe itself is incredibly fragile and disorderly. For example, an atom can decay at any time. A singular radioactive isotope may decay immediately, or it may decay trillions of years in the future. It's completely indeterminable and random. The universe itself is always in a state of random disorder. Any way to define the state of null properties at will would be constantly endangered by the universe's natural tendency of fragility and disorder.

The Lunarians need to live in an incredible delicate balance in which disorder and nullity is almost entirely negated. The moment disorder becomes too much, their control over the delicate properties of the universe would be undone. This would mean that their control over everything would immediately collapse, and the universe's properties that they once controlled become undefined. This is why they have to wall themselves off from the rest of the world. They're content to be in their small bubble because trying to control anything larger than that would be unreasonably difficult and not worth the effort.

>>38522875
>In a sense, this could be what the Lunarians view as impurity.
No that's just kegare, the dirtiness of living. It's why fairies are poison to them since they're made of the aspects of life.

Youkai also don't technically work that way. Not every rainstorm in Gensokyo is caused by some being able to control the rain. Sometimes it's just normal rain. Kyouko's race died out because of lack of belief or explanations, but oni kept getting tricked and killed for example. Youkai being mostly embodiment of imagination makes them subject to existential crises. Things like absorbing the aspects of similar youkai (Kogasa and blacksmithing, vampires and beans), or becoming weaker like Wriggle because people don't respect or fear the things that once gave the youkai their powers. It's less being explained away and more being thrown away because they aren't needed/wanted/respected. It's also worth remembering places like hell, old hell, the netherworld, the dream world, etc aren't Gensokyo so they won't poof or lose their powers upon leaving it. I imagine being in the outside world and interacting with people would have negative consequences for them however, like how females that are perceived as "demons" (e.g. Koakuma, who is probably closer to a hell fairy from the few descriptions given) are conflated with succubus and empusa and basically reduced to slutty sex-obsessed monsters in common thought. Actually I was going to use the chapter in WaHH about zashiki-warashi as an example of youkai being wanted and then disappearing when they weren't wanted again rather thank just poofing because people don't believe in household helpers, but now that I think about it, they were changed by being in the outside world as well (in terms of fashion sense.) Actually they were changed again, taking up remote working in the whale manga a couple of chapters ago instead of living in homes anymore. Tengu can create wind, but humans don't need them for wind to be created is more like it. It's not like they lost their powers the moment someone without a big nose first swung a fan around.

We're soon gonna reach the bump limit, so I just want to say this was actually a good thread. Especially since the last lore thread was full of crossies and edgefags. I haven't visited /jp/ for a couple of months becuse of all the trolls and vtumors. So it warms my heart to see my fellow /jp/sies discussing Touhou related things with passion like we used to do before 2020.

>>38519752
> Remember though, this has caused both youkai AND gods to use humans as mere sustenance for their existence
Wasn't this already the case prior to the rise of Science in the Outside World? It just that they are more carful at handling what they have left and are forced into a small pocket land instead of being everywhere.

What if Marisa is actually Maribel

>>38527867
Maribel has yellow (and not violet) eyes and her name starts with Mari, just like Marisa's. She's also a magician of sorts. Makes more sense than the Yukari theory, especially since ZUN himself disproved it once.

When are you guys finally going to stop calling マエリベリー Maribel?

'till the next lore thread, brothers

>>38533091
hopefully the next one is filled with more grimsokyo

>>38350281

>>38534340
This is true, but what the fuck is Steak-umm saying it for?

>>38534340
This is false. The end results of science are true whether we like it or not. No amount of disbelieving gravity will stop you from plunging down the side of a building.

>>38534467
false
The movement of every object — from a person to a supermassive black hole — produces gravitational waves. Most everyone in the scientific community believe gravitational waves exist, but no one has ever proved it.

>>38534467
Physics is full of shit
>there's no hard evidence for electrons
>neutrons don't even exist kek
>string theory is full of shit
>the concept of "matter" doesn't mean anything
>complex numbers are completely made-up

How do modern physicists justify the fact that any available systems of modeling the universe (big bang, quantum foam, string theory, ZFC, other set theory, chaos, game theory, whatever) are all built on a system of numeration that, at its origin level, is built on the contradictory logic -0=0?
This core contradiction results in a deductive explosion via the law of explosion that yields infinite truths within the numeration process that allow infinite patterns, infinite forms, and infinite potential physics models via infinite symbolic numerical representations (the simplest of which being binary, 0 and 1), so when you are using numbers you are basically just playing memory games with shapes, not necessarily accurately modeling reality.
Their most reasonable physical explanation at a beginning of the universe is just a reflection of mathematically setting an absolute finite origin that is its own negation, a contradiction unto itself, resulting in a limit to the absolute smallest physicists could ever physically justify. This limit means physicist can just tell an illogical beginning myth most reasonably categorized as some random explosion or infinite inflation, due to using numeration to arbitrarily differentiate 0 from 1, preceded by an undefined state, -0=0, because their physical model is just the result of a logical deductive explosion derived from contradictory origin point logic and an arbitrary separation of 100% from 0% via the illogical process of numeration.

-0 = 0 IS a logical contradiction, it means logically zero is its own opposite, the origin point of numeration is a self-contradicting value which is why an infinite numeration process is possible to derive from it because a system based on a logical contradiction can produce infinite results.

>>38534611
Forgot pic

>>38473628
>>38479261
>Demiurge

>>38429274
This is a weird Eirin, I'm pretty sure she can't show expressions like this.

>>38536453
she just needs some good cunny

>>38534873
>Being alive
>Good
You disgust me.