/jp/ - Otaku Culture

Let's have a less autistic thread this time.

I'm gay

>>36935737
It started off with the Arach coomer deleting the OP again so don't have hope.

>>36935768
those threads are always good

>>36935768
>Arach coomer
literally rent free

>>36935768
Removing the pointless and bloated OP is good.

No more Arach. Only Illya now.

>>36935761
No you're not

>>36935824
>30 yo bod
>14 yo face
>bull neck

Good morning /tmg/!

>three samefag posts
someone's angry lol

>>36935860
spoopy

>>36935843
yeah you, schizo

>>36935923
Meds, now.

Share any Type moon merch you own

I like Arach.

I'm gar

>>36936126
looks like the beginnings of a shrine there anon

>>36936136
we all do

>>36936126
Bought that when I was in japan got some goodies along with it.

>>36936253
Nice i ordered the English one that releases in November.
>>36936169
I have 2 more Rin figs and a Ciel fig on the way. I wish there was some more ciel and Arc merch

>>36936465
Didn't know they were going to release in english. I might buy it again since I can't into nihongo

>>36936465
time to buy yourself a display shelf or something and have your figures lined up nice

>>>/vm/428017
/vm/ is going to play melty on Saturday night. No not the new one.

>>36936633
That's Noel's blood.

kino scene accompanied with a kino classical piece
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hE6c8lk9HLY

>>36936126
the only type moon merch i own is my waifu pillow

>>36936633
>still no zucchiniroute?

>>36935841
dumb Arachfag

>>36936659
the smooth taste of noel

>>36937302
Hoping her route is cool.
Man its gonna be unreal, talking about her route
In 4 or 5 years.
Ha, ha.

>>36937302
>>36937375
>I could die before I get to read Sacchin's route
How do I cope with this?

Does Tsukihime Remake have H-scenes or did they get cut?

>>36937431
Anon, I...

>>36937441
if it has no H-scenes i am not reading it

>>36937456
bye bye coomer

>>36937431
It has as many as the last vn they released.

>>36937470
i am off to play the superior version then, it has more soul than the "new" everyone is a saberface vn

>>36937489
Whatever makes you feel better anon.
Don't grab your dick too hard.

>>36937489
>fapping to unvoiced doujin ero
The ero isn't that good man.

>>36937489
The h scenes in the original aren't even good and the remake is hornier anyway

>>36937418
You could die anyday, you could die tomorrow, just live your day to day happily until Sacchin's route drops.

To this day I still coom to F/SN and F/HA h-scenes.

>>36937542
>>36937527
The Akiha scene made my dick hard

I want to interject and call Nasu a fucking retard
did he have a stroke and forget the character talking is a christian nun?

>>36937684
female logic

>>36937684
Basically nothing about Ciel's character is informed by Christianity. It's not as if she joined the church because she was devout or anything though.

>>36937684
Ciel is a "nun" (Fake)
This is funnier in remake context too come to think of it

>>36937684
>Japan
>knowing anything about Christianity
Pick one. Also, she's right.

>>36937684
the only nun part about ciel is taking a dick up her ass

most rappable girl?

>>36937699
>>36937704
>>36937710
>>36937718
>>36937721
you motherfuckers need Jesus
Jokes aside, no spoilers plox, I'm reading this with interest, I was told Ciel's story was lame, but so far it seems alright, like its clearly meant to be interchangeable with Arc's route, but I don't see anything really wrong with it

peace!

>>36937753
Hisui
holy shit, I haven't finished Tsukihime yet, in Ciel route now, but everytime I see Hisui I can't prevent thinking how extremely rapeable she looks. My lord she seems like she was meant to be bend over and fucked violently

>>36937753
I bet Miyako and Mio can do sick boomboxing

>>36937759
Keep reading kek, but if you don't find it lame more power to you anon

>>36937753
castoria

>>36937753
rap is haram

>>36937684
How does Nasu manage to come to such retarded conclusions. Literally how the fuck can someone think sacrificing one's self for others is self love, and has nothing to do with any love or dedication for the people you sacrificed yourself for. Also how is a sacrifice not a sacrifice does he truly believe what those people truly wanted is to be dead.

>>36937774
*beatboxing, fug

>>36937795
It's narcissism and having a messiah complex anon. Not really complicated.

>>36937795
I don't think you need to take it as it is, he doesn't want you to agree with that notion and its most likely a way to portray that Ciel is fucking mental philosophically, also >>36937801

>>36937769
>Hisui
>she seems like she was meant to be bend over and fucked violently
Ignorance is bliss

>>36937780
Castoria is for sweet lovemaking in missionary position

>>36937814
>she's gonna get the struggle snuggle
thanks, boss

>>36937780
>>36937823
do you know that extremely retarded meme of "submissive and breedable"?
I didn't believe it till I saw castoria, my lord she can use some agressive violent dicking

>>36937684
Anon, Nasu didn't even know that there are more than one denomination of Christian until the 2010s.

Got myself a nice new wallpaper
https://files.catbox.moe/vlnav4.png

>>36937833
you fucking joke

>>36937684

>>36937759
It's mostly fine, honestly. The primary problems people have with it is just being mostly Arc's route and one of the endings, people like most of the route specific shit

>>36937801
>It's narcissism
Narcissist only care about themselves and would never sacrifice themselves for others and messiah complex people usually see themselves as too important to be sacrificed.

>>36937823
castoria is for prone bone animal mating

>>36937036
Which girl is it? It better not be Ceil

>>36937883
>>36937823
I would give anything just for the chance to hug her.

>>36937873
>it is just being mostly Arc's route
well that's mostly because almost everyone play's arc's route first, but its very obvious that both Ciel and Arc are meant to be played first with little change between them, I don't think its specifically a problem of the route itself but of how people play the game normally. If you changed the order the main complain would be for arc's route "its too similar to Ciel"

But in any case, its enjoyablen nonetheless, Ciel's personality being a likeable character elevates it

>>36937883
>orangemaru
please don't do this to my dick

>>36937909
I'm just glad for the remake Nasu realised he had to do some revamping for her route and take out the retarded end

>>36937839
Nope. That's why the Church is always referred to as a vaguely Catholic monolithic block even though priests and nuns don't have to be celibate.

>>36937928
well, I had two explanations for that
1-In tsukihime he clearly says its the catholic church, so obviously they behave like catholics
2-In fate he never mentions the church in very specific terms, so i though he started to censor it a bit and be a ambiguous on purpose
who knew it was because he was retarded about the subject, lol

>>36937849
I want to rape shirou

GUYS, ITS HAPPENING

>>36937875
>Narcissist only care about themselves
No they don't.

>>36937956
it was worth it

>>36937956
>>36937981

fgo bad

>>36937981
It's funny how in the original they used Hisui "upset" sprite after this, looking disappointed at Shiki destroying a chair like a mother watching her son shitting on the floor at the supermarket.
At least she actually looks horrified in the remake. Makes it easy to understand you're not supposed to laugh at that.

>>36938042
nah, its fine

>>36938042
yes

>>36938042
Castoria good

>>36938042
Yes, FGO bad.

>fgo is... LE BAD

>>36938088
[reddit gold has been awared to this post]

>>36938042
Do I have the right to say I hate F/GO if I like the Nightingale, Jeanne Alter and Titty Saber doujins?

Where’s the materials

>>36938120
There's nothing wrong with enjoying the only worthwhile part of F/GO. I fap hard to those Jeanne Alter doujins too.

>>36938128
You wanna getFELT

>>36938017
Based.

>>36938114
Reddit likes FGO retard and dissmes FSN as some trashy porn game.

>>36938171
how the fuck am I supposed to know what reddit likes or doesn't

https://twitter.com/hara3131/status/1448059903856177152
Noel route spoiler

>>36938120
please say you also like raikou doujins and you're my hole brother

>>36938227
>hole brother
that sounds gay, bro

>>36938237
it's not gay unless balls are touching

>>36938237
Where do you think you are, hole brother?

>>36938262
I'm not your bro, aniki

>>36938262
archer is so cute with his bf

Pain.

>>36938296
Why is Aoko's head so big

>>36938306
has to hold the magic

How is DeepL so good translating sentences? i thought machines would never be as good as humans

>>36936197
it's funny that one of Medusa's best designs comes from here.

>>36938340
Machine learning magic.

>>36938306
Certain things need balancing out.

>>36938296
Whats wrong Aokobro?

>>36938296
Would applying DeepL to Mahoyo allow for the translation to be finally fucking finished?

Any idea on MBTL sales? Seems kinda low for Japan console but probably did ok since PC+international?

>>36938372
Steam seems to have done very well compared to every other platform.

>>36938296
knowing that mahoyo will never get the sequels...

>>36938365
The absolute state of /tmg/ is what is wrong.
>>36938368
It is quick and dirty, but it would be a start.
Releasing a half baked TL is a reliable way to get TL teams to actually finish their proper projects, HA being the golden example, as they both miss the clout and their autism on people not reading the 'proper' translation forces their hand.

>>36938441
you gotta post more Aoko art to get rid of the FGOfags.

>>36938434
It only took Nasu 15 years to make Mahoyo real, and it is only a bit over 5 until another 15 years has passed.
Bank on 2027.

>>36938372
Famitsu gives it 30k, which doesn't include digital and international.
We know it got like ~12k concurrent players peak on steam (I don't know how this translates to overall sales).
To compare Act Cadenza sold 67k in its first week and Actress again sold 42k.
Still seems pretty low for JP physicals but it will still be the best selling Melty when everything's included.

>>36938453
It takes an army of gachafags to hold us back.

>>36938471
I'm surprised that it sold so low physically since the remake did so well. Well the steam sales estimate it at around 100-200k so it sold well with those numbers. Not to mention the other digital versions. We'll have to wait for them to announce sales numbers like they did with TsukiR.

If I translated the later volumes of the Tsukihime manga with better scans, where would I upload it?

>>36938510
Mangadex is back up so probably there.

>>36938510
Mangadex. Do you need someone to typeset or proofread?

>>36938655
>Like my breasts.

>>36938537
Not yet

>>36938721
Alright. Make sure to post here if you do, I know me and one other Anon that lurks here usually, have typesetting and proofreading experience.

Is tsukihime 1 better than 2?

>>36938895
Heyo, it's Bjorn from 2050. Tsukihime 2 just released and it's GOAT. Altrouge & Shiki v CM is the finale. True Arc Ending for Tsuki2 is basically the same as the OG manga. Princess and her Knight Kino. I like the Lorelei and Alt routes almost as much though.

>>36938936
Did they end up making 2 an open world rpg?

>>36938211
Nice

>>36939004
Yes. It's basically multiple scenarios in one as the amount of divergence and impact of choice is so high. It's almost blurring the lines between an OWRPG and VN. Never woulda been possible without the funding from gachashit. Crazy it stayed alive after the mass burning occurred when the first (you) died.

>>36938510
Are you buying the whole manga digitally?

>>36939211
Probably digitally

>>36938510
Upload the raws too while you're at it.

>>36939248
I'd appreciate it if you uploaded the digital scans then, since every scan of it rn has artifacts
I've been trying to upload scans of something on nyaa but I don't have an account and guest uploads are disabled

>>36939294
You can make an account and upload anonymously you know right?
Also I don't have them but I'm pretty sure you can buy them digitally

>>36939304

>>36939325
Oh weird

>>36939291

brehs..it was a good ride..

>>36939419
now tell us your thoughts on each heroine and route

>>36939439
Personally I like Arc a lot followed by Ciel. But I had the most feels during the Kohaku and Hisui routes. It's very difficult for me to rate them but right now in terms of route enjoyment it's:

Kohaku=Hisui > Arc > Ciel > Akiha. They are all pretty close though, overall it was very good.

>>36939419
Was this you? How did you read the far side routes in 4 hours?
>>36937684
>>36937769

>>36939454
No, I've been reading Tsukihime since last week.

>>36939211
Nothing personal but I physically own five out of the six Tsukihime manga volumes released in English with the exception of vol 5; so I only bought volumes 5, and 7-10 digitally

>>36939453
Based Amber Chad, just put Akiha between Kohaku and Hisui and you'd be me.

>>36939453
It's perfectly normal to have different route rankings vs different girl rankings
Good job on finishing the ride anon, glad you had fun. Best girl is erryone

>>36939453
yeah my rankings are pretty similar if you just switch a few routes around. congratulations anon. hope you read kagetsu tohya soon after.

>>36939470
Yea, I'm gonna hop on that next.
>>36939464
Akiha was worst girl for me until she went full demon blood "your dick is mine". Was pretty hot.

>>36939489
Do plus disc first.

>>36939569
Oh yea, I just saw that in the folder.

>>36939453
Surprised Akiha is so low. She is the hottest Tsuki girl.

>>36939583
I personally love Akiha's route. Shiki vs SHIKI as a climax is fantastic.

Spoilers for Red Garden: https://twitter.com/GoRoGoLoGo/status/1447833392792281093?t=OCF6hFzH7aW_2j2Kq9CsHg&s=09

>>36939668
My sides.

>>36939668
Saiki abducts Akiha. Compound guarded by 50 hybrids. Shiki goes full Nanaya. It would be amazing.

Huh, didn't know someone remade Mahoyo into an RPGmaker game. https://www.bilibili.com/video/BV1gv411g7qw

Now that ive consumed both VN and anime, I cant honestly hate the ufotable anime adaptation. For what its worth, you can tell how much effort the staff put in trying to adapt the series accurately minus Shirou's inner dialogue (also a bit angry that Die Lorelei is gone but still). Fate is so fortunate to have a good VN adaptation.

>>36939673
I can't wait to be furious when they cut this out of the movie adaptation.

>>36939734
Inner monologue bad.
>t. ufotable

>>36939668
Translation? I cant read moonrunes.

That's a thought. Shiki's inner monologue is some of the best shit and core to Tsuki. How the fuck do you do a decent adaption without it? From his freak outs to the fight scenes.

>>36939746
That's the "I like Kotomine Kirei" line from HF but altered to be Saiki Gotou.

>>36939724
At least Sakura was cute in the movies... But yeah, it's a shame.

>>36939758
oh fuck i just realized it contrasted Shirou/Kotomine fight. Im such a fucking moron took me a while.

>>36939711
That is some bonafide dedication right there.
Aoko is the strongest.

>>36939751
It should be easier to make him more relatable than Shirou due to his personality and not being a hero complex autist. A good director should be able to portray him going mad due to Roa taking over his body with showing him going crazy in his room like the remake does. Good directing can convey his personality without too many internal monologues. It all depends on the pacing of the scene as you don't want to get bogged down by too much inner monologuing.

>>36939724
Shirou vs Kirei sucked idc

>>36939785
she's the cutest too.

>>36939844
Yes, they ruined it.

Mahoyo 3 when.

>>36940001
3 years after Mahoyo 2, so 2026.

>>36939327
Dunno if people would care but uploading it here anyways
https://www.mediafire.com/folder/xjmoqcdqzmmyc/Fate_hollow_ataraxia

>>36939330
Is that some Gila fanart? That's rare.

>>36940034
wasn't the hollow manga pretty bad?

>>36940046
I have no idea, just that only one chapter was translated on mangadex and two volumes were released in February 2014 and June 2016. So it's probably abandoned. I bought it to see how they tried adapting it and the second volume seems interesting but it ends on a cliffhanger.

>>36940078
Was all of the Take Moon's chapter translated? The one in mangadex only had up to 13 then skipping to 15 and 16.

>>36939668
Saiki content is all so fucking good, it's crazy

>>36940115
Some chapters are still untranslated

>>36939982
Most certainly.

>>36940115
I did 12-13 and 15-16. The reason I only did those was because I wanted to translate the remaining Tsukihime chapters that weren't animated. That's why I skipped the Len one.

Is the stay night manga good?

>>36940153
no just like all fate shits its trash go read the hentai materials instead

>>36940153
It's ass apparently but til half of it is officially translated https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07JKCRZMB?searchxofy=true&binding=kindle_edition&ref_=dbs_s_aps_series_rwt_tkin&qid=1634099128&sr=8-1

>>36940145
Oh you're the translator? You did a great job anon. Greatly appreciated that you translated Tsukihime before Fate first.

>>36940153
No, but it's funny to laugh at how buff Shirou gets over time. The HF manga is supposed to be good.

>>36940153
HF is good. Fate is shit as always.

>>36940180
Can't wait for it to finish in 2040

>>36939736
Logistically, it's impossible to fit all of a VN into an animated adaptation.

>>36940190
what is that rider design? it looks awful.

>>36940206
You're like the only person who's said that so far. Everyone who saw it was cooming

>>36940180
He's getting more angular as he becomes more of a sword

>>36940209
he must ben an arachfag

>>36940206
???

>>36940211
he becomes a bigger sword.

>>36940180
What sword steroids does to a mf

>>36940219
what's with the original fate getting shit games and adaptations? all the spinoffs get better shit

>>36940209
it looks like a shitty monster girl

>>36940206
It's Gorgon without the tail. Gorgon is one of the best things to come out of FGO for the FSN cast.

>>36940229
oh so that's supposed to represent when rider went full monster? instead of an eldritch abomination that represents rider losing her humanity its just some shitty knockoff monster girl? what a fuckin waste.

>>36940229

>>36940219
I shouldnt be laughing so hard from this pic but damn why do they look like that LMAOOOOO

>>36940243
Yeah, FGO once again designing stuff for coomers instead of just using the old F/HA designs.

>>36940258
Keep bitching about shit you don't understand. They DO use that design in FGO, for "Gorgon's" NP as the final stage of her transformation. Her monster girl forms precede that.

>>36940275
FGO i kneel.

>>36940275
well the design still looks like shit so it's par for the course for FGO garbage.

>>36940275
oh so she only goes full abomination sometimes when she isnt a generic monster girl. got it.

>>36940275
>for "Gorgon's" NP
Oh yes because that makes okay, never mind other than those brief moments she has the retarded coomer design. What a fucking retard you are.

>>36940258
>>36940243

>>36940298
>>36940302
Yeah because it makes sense for FSN Medusa to jump straight to the mass of tentacles from FHA with nothing in between. And like FSN Medusa's design wasn't still coomer as hell back in 2004.

>>36940298
gotta cater to the FGOfags. Can't have a character that actually looks monstrous all the time. I bet none of the moments with Gorgon in FGO even reach the highs of Rider's Gorgon memories in F/HA or her breaking into a monster. Keep consuming the same stale garbage that FGO always feeds you. It's baffling people on here accept that mediocrity and even pay for it or defend it.

Remember they took Medea Lily from you

>>36940316
I'm glad they did. Wouldn't want FGO infecting it and bastardizing that design with everything else they did. Let it stay F/HA exclusive.

>>36940316
Lily doesn't mean the young version of that servant though.

FGO would never....!
Okay where's my upvotes

>>36940328
What does it mean then?

>>36940335
you can go to reddit and upvote the FGO cringe that they always post.

>>36940313
rider's original design was coomer, yes, but her tube dress is churchly compared to many fgo outfits. plus rider has the most conservative (and the best) casual clothes.

>>36940328
the flashbacks for that section are when she was with Jason in the Argonaut ship so yeah that's Lily since that's what Lily's design is based off of back when she was in love with Jason and left her country at an early age.

>>36940315
>Can't have a character that actually looks monstrous all the time.
They absolutely can, they just can't be female. Hessian Lobo is a monstrous wolf and the Headless Horseman.

>>36940339
Guda gets arrested for pedophilia how would the servants react

>>36940349
Lobo is a good boy how dare you.

>>36940349
>>36940315
>Can't have a character that actually looks monstrous all the time
That applies to Rider already anyway, though.

>>36940316
at least koyama got to draw his waifu instead of having takeuchi rub his grubby hands onto her.

>>36940359
They bust him out. Why would stop them?

>>36940337
I can't be assed to find and quote it but there's a slightly autistic explanation in side materiale alongside Yukika Lily.

>>36940365
I saw some anon saying that they were joking while giving these numbers.
Anyone can read Japanese to tell us if that's true?

>>36940480
The whole thing is a parody and they're rating how heroine-y each girl is, so yeah. They also sometimes say add a point or too depending on your taste e.g. Koyama says add a point for Illya if you like bloomers.

>>36940226
Unlimited Codes was fun. Ufotable FSN adaptations are all better than the other Fate adaptations except for Zero

based Arc saving the city in both routes

where are all these people getting copies of the OG Tsukihime form? second-hand?

>>36940626
Second hand (and they're quite expensive I think)
Iirc T-M hasn't made a re-release of Tsukihime in like.. 18 years or something, they're trying to snuff the original with this new Remake.

I hope they keep this sprite in remake.

>>36940934

Does Red Arc say anything interesting to Shiki or Ciel in MBTL? During gameplay.

>>36940941
Thats a nice amount of soul right there

>>36940339
Seeing FGO roleplayers are so tiring. Why dont we just idk... not talk FGO here?

>>36941252
I hope Nasu gets church-pilled. Shit is so much more badass than the magic side of the settings.

>>36941252
Normal end was kino asf

>>36940219
is that a motherfucking jojo reference?????

Is pic related the proof Nasu is out of touch and butthurt who can't accept his failings?

>>36937684
Nasu is absolutely retarded, or Ciel is. He changed his tune (in a good way) in Fate.

>>36941397
He legit sounds like a bitch here. Most people don't go for the puppy you already know is in need of deworming.

>>36937684
One good thing of FGO is that Nasu BTFO those two retarded sluts blabbling shit they don't understand because are inhuman and worthless monsters.
First example: One Arc babbling about how human life is meaningless and nothing matters so be le random XDDD The one who has no idea of being human and is removed from them.
Second example is Ciel, the immortal monster, trying to get cocky about sacrifice.

>>36941397
It is the proof that he is a retard. Sakurafaces are different characters than Sakura herself.
If he wanted to "fix" her, then he should have made something with the real Sakura instead.

>>36940297
She looks like Medusa is mean to look instead of her bondage club hooker look she had in FSN.

>>36941397
Where's the idiot who argued with me he never said that? More's the proof he's salty about his precious Extra never being FSN and FGO tier level hit and that's why he keeps remaking it where's there's no need.

>>36941423
Even in-universe they're based on Sakura to a degree, especially BB and White Sakura.

>>36941437
I don't think she looks that great here either. Kind of looks like a skimpier version of a female super hero you'd find in a western comic with snake hair and scales. So it's meh at best. Be better if they went for badass instead of the standard coomer bait.

>>36941338
It might be the best ending in TM honestly.

>>36941472
she has a greek toga and jewelry instead of sci fi bondage shit
she has SNAKES in her hair and snake cscales
her best design was as enemy though. with the tail instead of the tail legs.

You can see her and go "Medusa."

>standard coomer bait.

Rider always looked like standard coomber bait though. Except you wouldn't even call her Medusa.

>>36941338
Executor Shiki as an inherently cool concept aside, the best part is the whole repeating cycle of self-hatred and twisted "redemption". It's basically a band end

>>36941491
>Rider always looked like standard coomber bait though. Except you wouldn't even call her Medusa.
Based. Also weird how they basically genderswapped Perseus and then called her Medusa

>>36941322
Servant side you mean. Church stuff is still supernatural/magic, it’s just not closely related to Fate bullshit.

In fact one thing we absolutely need more of is cool Church magic. Indexfags have us beat here, Nasu doesn’t have anything nearly as kino as the orbital laser created by 3000 monks Gregorian chanting or that dude whose magic is conceptually based on the “weight of the cross” where he can turn crucifixes he throws huge and make them way heavier than they should be to use as a weapon

But yeah the Church is absolutely the coolest part of the setting and needs more expansion. It's a shame Sanda couldn't make his Church Files series he wanted to do.

>>36941500
She always bothered me a lot. Medusa was my mytholofyfu and I hated Rider existence. FHA was even more painful with the Y-You S-See Poseidon was a Bro and gave her the Horse as Gift!! Fuck off.
Babylonia did save her for me, for all FGO shortcomings, Nasu did her justice at last.

I hate Anna's Naruto and lolishit collar design but her arc with Gorgon was good.

>>36941510
Remake Seventh is kinda closeto that with each form being a different cause of death used to execute heretics in the past and Ciel changing the scriptures it's loaded with as ammo to hurt different types of enemies

>>36941518
mythologyfu*

>>36941491
Eh, she's got that shitty titty armor lol. Whenever you see snakes in hair you assume Medusa so that's a given. Her legs are indeed terrible. Makes her look like a generic dragon monster girl. I can only wonder why haha.

>>36941530
Still a better representation of the idea of Medusa than FSN Rider. Shit OC backstory though

>>36941252
I like how the way he draws Mario/Laurentis’ face makes him look subtly older

>>36941530
She looks like Medusa.
Her characterization as Gorgon, and her arc vs her younger self about her connection with humanity was all I wanted for her. She got a confrontation of her youth and her adulthood as mostly male characters did. She was great.

Much better than the cock-slurper Sakura arbiter and Poseidon platonic friend (robbing of her connection with Sakura ironically) she is in FSN/FHA. That piece of shit is not Medusa. Obviously when originally that was Perseus (he generated "Medusa" and "Shinji").

>>36941510
Ya I get that it's heavy in church magic shit. I agree that all stuff church would be welcome. Including the Church wiping out a city or something to take out a strong vampire. I fully expect to see some brutal stuff in the name of the lord. I just meant magic side since that's how TM describes the split. Church vs Magic Association. Tsukihime vs Fate. DAA vs Servants. Gaia vs Human history. Crimson Moon vs Dead/Inactive CM.

>>36941521
Didn't the mats say all scriptures and loaded in it?

>>36941554
I want to know the Church time Table, though.

>>36941554
>I agree that all stuff church would be welcome. Including the Church wiping out a city or something to take out a strong vampire. I fully expect to see some brutal stuff in the name of the lord.
One day NarbCHADs…one day Director-sama will wipe out a city to kill an Ancestor...
>I just meant magic side since that's how TM describes the split. Church vs Magic Association. Tsukihime vs Fate. DAA vs Servants. Gaia vs Human history. Crimson Moon vs Dead/Inactive CM.
Timeline split is fucking stupid and this logic makes no sense. Tying the magi to Fate and Servant shit is really goddamn dumb, they’re an interesting part of the setting in general and 99% of what they do is totally unrelated to Servants. Not to mention a big part of what the Church does (or did) is fight them. Not to mention they tie into the Humanity vs Nature/Inhumanity theme the Church embodies with how they are humans that sacrificed their symbolic humanity for power. Also Zelretch killing CM but not being a vampire in “Fate timelines” but then not killing CM and being a vampire in “Tsuki timelines” is incoherent nonsense.

>>36941570
>e. Tying the magi to Fate and Servant shit is really goddamn dumb,
It was always tied to that. All The Fates but Extra have as background, a mage or a mage's creations fucking shit up and rituals.

Extra has this indirectly because of the world being fucked by mages doing some ritual. Mooncell shit sticks like a sore thumb.

>>36941562
>使用弾頭はコーノカント反応光から劣化ウラン弾に変更。テキストスロットは転生批判文から新約天使記に書 き換え。
>Change the applied warhead from Cornocanto reactive light to depleted uranium shells. Rewrite the text-slot from reincarnation denial texts into New Testament Angelology.
Referring to this.

>>36941577
Remake will reveal Mooncell creators were actually time traveling mages.
Zepar only needed Moneybill's oil ring and a few months injured as shit and depowered to build a pseudo Mooncell on Earth.

>>36941553
I'm just saying her design is ass lol. Especially the one in the image in this thread ya'll were talking about. Enemy Gorgon is way better but even that's kinda... eh.

>>36941582
Yes, but Nasu pointed out all Scriptures are loaded with that kind of conceptual shit.

>>36941577
I’m talking about the concept of magi in general. 99% of what they do is unrelated to Servants and even in the “Magi timeline” a huge chunk of it is Church vs Magi. It’s just that over time, Nasu struggled to write a Fate story that didn’t involve Servants. Case Files was supposed to be that but got dragged into Servantshit by vol 4, the Adventures series thankfully seems to be focusing more on both magi and pagan gods and shit instead of Servants (with the exception of Gray).

Just because it's the current status quo doesn't make it goode

>>36941590
I know but even Seventh is only 1/3 Christian stuff (though to be fair unicorns have Christian connotations historically and that's likely why they're part of Seventh, and the martyr is very much a Christian thing). We need more Scriptures in general though.

>>36941599
You aren't wrong. Maybe it's just that the Mages in Tsuki/mahoyo worlds will be less boring than summoners for overblown familiars. Please bring us into the right timeline Tsukihime.

>>36941585
Unironically superior to alien nonsense.

>>36941570
Mages have a more central role in Nasu's Fate than Church has in Tsukihime (which is not even relevant outside Near side in the past, might change in the remarke). FSN is a Third Magic ritual, and the protagonists other than Saber are all mages and a magecraft user. FGO Chaldea is a mage founded organization and deals with a ritual Solomon made, and the founder of Chaldea got involved. The Master of Chaldea is the reborn Solomon's recognized heir.

Only Extra has this a bit off with the SAO Fate... I guess. Maybe the remake will fix it. Last Encore tried to give focus to the mage involved in that world's backstory, but Extella felt completely out of place.

>>36941620
I want that so bad but Nasu seems to basically want to treat mages like they don't exist in non-Servantshit.

>>36941599
>99% of what they do is unrelated to Servants
Like most of the Church don't give a shit about the vampires and DA and only a minority are executors? No shit. And?

>>36941621
Alien bullshit is gross. I can deal with Types but that's it.

>>36941637
It's so utterly in conflict with so many of the setting's core themes and makes no sense based on previously established information. Outer space in Nasu is basically an eldritch realm with entirely different laws of physics, not just regular ass mundane space

>>36941599
But Case Files uses Servants?
>Waver marked by Iskandar
>Grey literally is dealing as an experiment to rebirth King Arthur
And those are the main characters. Can't forget the one added for Adventures
>A demi/Speudo Servant God Eater Ergo

The rest are irrelevant filler. Flat is a side character because he's a main character in Strange Fake, where he's a Master. Waver's big arc in Case Files was to fight Heartless and his SERVANT Faker.

Don't get me wrong, it fleshes up lore and all, but trying to pretend there's not a Servant focus is fucking hilarious, mate.

>>36941630
The martial sections of the Church are literally the largest supernatural faction in terms of head count according to old mats. Also when we talk about the Church we rarely if ever are referring to like, mundane parish priests who don’t get involved with anything supernatural besides transubstantiation. Fuck if Zero is to be believed, even those guys have a "call this in case of vampire" hotline.

>>36941655
Read my post again retard
>Case Files was supposed to be that but got dragged into Servantshit by vol 4
I was literally complaining about that, calling it wasted potential for something that's not Servantshit.

Oh also Argo isn't a Servant. He ate bodies of deceased Age of Gods deities. Nothing to do with the HGW

>>36941651
The Lovecraft stuff is jobber and gag tier now because Nasu gave it to Meteo and Meteo can't make it bigger deal than Nasu's favorites.

>>36941664
He's literally a Demi/Pseudo Servant experiment, he's similar to Gray in general, and she's officially regarded as a weird Pseudo/Demi mix as per FGO label.

He functions no different from a High Servant.

>>36941624
>Mages have a more central role in Nasu's Fate than Church has in Tsukihime
But the core of Fate is Servant nonsense, the Holy Grail War was a minor ritual in a backwater which most mages don't give two shits about and 99% of what the Clock Tower do has nothing to do with it. CM3 talks about how the "backbone" of Nasuverse is Association vs Church.
>(which is not even relevant outside Near side in the past, might change in the remarke)
From the beginning the Church vs Vampires stuff was considered the core of Tsukihime’s setting (look at what Tsuki2 was planned to be, look at the two prequels to it we got). Far Side is an almost entirely self contained story about the Tohno family and wasn’t really the basis for Tsukihime as a wider series. I am talking about Tsukihime as a setting not just the original VN.

>>36941656
I think remake actually mentioned that about the church having the largest contingent or such.

>>36941656
And that's still not the majority of the Church, anon. That's the point. T

>>36941676
Is he called a Servant? I know he's meant to contrast Gray but the contrast is "powerful beings from the past are going to overwrite my identity" not Servantshit

>>36941599
>just disregard the main character's prime motivation and write what I want

>>36941666
Well old Lovecraft stuff was both aliens and True Demons, the latter of which seem to have gone the way of Church Knights (everything basically pretending like they don't even exist) after Nasu introduced completely unrelated Lovecraft stuff in FGO (thanks for nothing)

>>36941688
Who is "the majority of the Church"? Are you trying to say the Church isn't mostly "kill magi and vampires" in this setting because of like, unrelated normie Catholics who don't get involved in that?
>>36941687
Ok good, we're still top dog.

>>36941695
>gone the way of Church Knights (everything basically pretending like they don't even exist)
remember when case files had churchfags stationed in a specific location to protect important land (literally the main thing knights do) and then sanda made them executors for some reason?

>>36941680
>backwater ritual
A backwater ritual that had Zelretch helping the setup. It's only backwater because they don't know what's happening and have no idea or think Servant summing was possible. Look at Gordolf's reaction to Da Vinci, he's completely floored she is real. They never thought the Servants were sentient and had so much power in truth. They assumed was some low level brainless familiar.

They are all over it when they realize what it means, the summoning and the connection to the Root. That's why there's a big Clock Tower crisis ten years after Fate or UBW or any war it doesn't wrecks the Greater Grail.

>CM3 talks about how the "backbone" of Nasuverse is Association vs Church.
Incinerated.

Fate original set up was the one that FGO is using and Nasu said so which is older than Nasuverse. The one he had in mind for Prototype.

>>36941690
Not directly yet, but he's called Servant like. The way he was made reminds any lorefag of the AIs of Mooncell (artificial being with parts of 3 deities).

Waver has no way to know High Servant clasisification.

>>36941695
The only Lovecraft stuff now is some loser gods sealed away (as some of Lovecraft gods were actually) that was dying to return and use retarded waifus to break out.

>>36941710
>A backwater ritual that had Zelretch helping the setup. It's only backwater because they don't know what's happening and have no idea or think Servant summing was possible.
>Look at Gordolf's reaction to Da Vinci, he's completely floored she is real.
Wow dude you totally demonstrated what the pre-FGO/pre-Extra canon of the HGW was by citing FGO shit. Genius level reasoning here.
>Incinerated.
I was literally talking about what the original setting was like before FGO and Extella shit up the canon. Pointing out that FGO and Extella shit up the canon does not challenge my point at all, it reinforces it.
>Fate original set up was the one that FGO is using and Nasu said so which is older than Nasuverse. The one he had in mind for Prototype.
Ah yes Prototype, where the Order of the Templars are a huge deal, there is no pre-existing Beast category and the Beast is a newly created lifeform, and the Throne of Heroes literally does not exist. That Prototype? I sure do remember when alien robot gods showed up in the middle of ProtoFrags!

>>36941728
Breaking into Nasu's house to strangle him with garrote wire until he brings back the kino Abrahamic-Lovecraft hybrid True Demons.

I can only hold out hope that the implication Prelati's Spellbook is connected to one pays off in Strange Fake, since Narita actually gives a shit about pre-FGO lore.

>>36941718
Just dropping by to point out that High Servant is a monumentally retarded idea that should've never been made, like most of 2010s TM.

>>36941743
BB already hinted True Demons are another name for Beast. It's idiots who misunderstand why CCC Kiara had bigger scale than Seraphix Kiara thinking that Nasu thought were different. The scale was that Seraphix was smaller morsel to power her up than Mooncell.

>>36941755
>BB already hinted True Demons are another name for Beast.
Because as we all know, Beasts are aesthetically Lovecraftian fallen angels that have literally nothing to do with humanity, have existed for millennia, spawn lesser demons, and exist in sealed eldritch pocket dimensions.

Go read F/HA Caren infodump on demons and the section on them in mats again and get back to me, jesus christ.

>>36941733
>Wow dude you totally demonstrated what the pre-FGO/pre-Extra canon of the HGW was by citing FGO shit.
It's also true for Fate. The existence of Servants with their capabilities isn't believed in the Clock Tower.

>Ah yes Prototype
Protototype had Masters and Servants related to angels that would fight to Satan/The Beast. That concept was taken for FGO. That's why The Grand Servants are literally described as angels (messengers from heaven).

STOP

RIDER TIME

>>36941766
Lovecraftian has nothing to do with fallen angels though? Lovecraft's monsters have always been boring as fuck other than the Color. Bible angels are more amazing looking.

>that have literally nothing to do with humanity,
You're probably reading a ministration. They are independent of humanity. That's basically an independent manifestation basis.

>>36941755
>>36941766
Adding to this, literally the only demon-related Beasts — Goetia and Kiara — are linked to the other kind of demon (the “false” demons that possess people).

>>36941776
PAIZURI NOW

>>36941781
What Nasu mean "independent" from humanity is because of Independent Manifestation, not that have no connection to humanity at all. Kiara becomes a true Demon in CCC and she was fucking human.

>>36941766
What does a dumb slut lke Karen even know? Kiara is the only example of true demon before the Beast stuff got in and she is
>not elderich or sealed (just a hot slut nun with horns)
>was human

By that example, you know that was bullshit.

>>36941780
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mara_(demon)

Reading this thread just reminds me of how much the spinoffs have lowered the overall quality of the setting. Feels bad.

>>36941781
fuck
>>36941827
Also Goetia said he was a 異なる文明圏 and Beast VII nicknamed is "God of another planet" so covers the other definition.

It's just that lore evolved. But demons becoming true demons were started to be possible. So whatever the origin for Kiara or Goetia or Mara or Olga is, doesn't matter.

>>36941780
>Lovecraftian has nothing to do with fallen angels though? Lovecraft's monsters have always been boring as fuck other than the Color. Bible angels are more amazing looking.
I'm talking about how F/HA and its mats say True Demons are fallen angels, but also says they are similar in nature to Lovecraftian gods
>You're probably reading a ministration. They are independent of humanity. That's basically an independent manifestation basis.
No, I mean True Demons do not originate from anything to do with humans. Beasts on the other hand:

>Beast 666: Created out of human negative emotions by an Imitation Grail owned by the Templars
>Goetia: Created by Solomon (a human), basically a living Thaumaturgical Foundation
>Tiamat: Divine Spirit (created out of human collective unconscious)
>Primate Murder: Being created by Gaia in order to kill humans
>Kiara: Remnant of Goetia combined with a human
>Kama: Divine Spirit combined with a human host for dumb FSN fanservice reasons
>Tamamo Vitch: Divine Spirit (again a product of collective unconscious)

We don’t know about the stupid Olga thing or the Arcade one but literally every other Beast so far has been a product of humanity. True Demons on the other hand are totally unrelated to humans, with the Church believing them to have been created by the Abrahamic God. They're pre-existing beings too, while nearly all of the FGO Beasts were created during the events of FGO

>>36941798
Independent Manifestation is literally not a thing that existed when Nasu wrote F/HA. Stop retroactively trying to apply FGO lore onto old lore.
>>36941810
>what does a demon expert know about demons?
Also you're forgetting Prelati's Spellbook which is implied to be linked to one. Kiara was human but she became a True Demon due to getting her past rewritten in-universe by Hans' NP.
>>36941877
>Also Goetia said he was a 異なる文明圏 and Beast VII nicknamed is "God of another planet" so covers the other definition.
We don't know what the dumb Olga thing is, but Goetia is a "false" demon that is related to humans, not a True Demon.
>It's just that lore evolved. But demons becoming true demons were started to be possible. So whatever the origin for Kiara or Goetia or Mara or Olga is, doesn't matter.
By "lore evolved" we mean retcon. But even then the Beasts do not fit the category of a True Demon as explained in F/HA and mats.

>>36941768
>It's also true for Fate. The existence of Servants with their capabilities isn't believed in the Clock Tower.
Primary source from F/SN, F/HA, Zero, or mats, or GTFO.
>Protototype had Masters and Servants related to angels that would fight to Satan/The Beast. That concept was taken for FGO. That's why The Grand Servants are literally described as angels (messengers from heaven).
The Beast in Prototype is a newly created entity manifested from the collective unconscious negative thoughts of humanity (a la Angra, who it is the prototype version of) by the Imitation Grail possessed by the Templars. It has NOTHING to do with the Grand Servant retarded nonsense in FGO. I understand FGO's Beast bullshit is a reworked version of this but the two are entirely different implementations.

>>36941922
And what does FHA say about true demons? All I know is that the mats have a line referring to Caren exorcising a true demon eventually.
＞『hollow』後はその終生まで暗黒の聖者を追いかけ続け、最期の悪魔祓いが成った時、
＞望みが叶ったとかなんとか。

とコメントされてたり。
「月姫2」の際の話なのか、さらにその後の話なのかは不明ですがそういう顛末のようです。

>>36941922
>We don't know what the dumb Olga thing is, but Goetia is a "false" demon that is related to humans, not a True Demon.
The loredump literally states that normal demons can rise to be true demons. This was way before FGO. Goetia called himself a high-dimensional existence that is not connected to or needs of humanity, which is how true demons are defined. Goetia wasn't a demon, he was a magecraft ritual, but becoming a Beast with the Inciniration Ritual changed and elevated his existence.
BB used True demon and beast as equivalents/synonymous in Seraph.

Like it or not, the skill "Independent Manifestation" is now connected to this concept and was created to explain it in RPG terms.

>By "lore evolved" we mean retcon.
You saw how a human, Kiara, became a true demon. She looked nothing like Karen's ramblings. How the fuck is a human with horns in magenta and white lingerie "lovecraftian" to you?

>>36941954
Caren and Mr. Dawn aren’t after True Demons. They’re after “false” demons that possess people, as Caren herself says. Even Dawn’s special exorcisms can only remove a false demon after it’s fully fused with the host (which normally is impossible and demands an Executor come in to kill both of them.

The only reference to actual True Demons in 2010s TM, ironically, has been Hansa in Strange Fake mentioning that the presence of one would demand he call the Burial Agency. And not Dawn, I mean Ciel and Narbareck and shit, to kill it.

>>36941954
>karen
I hope Beasts aren't connected to these jobbers now.

>>36941980
>Strange Fake
that's illya tier fanfiction.

>>36941976
>The loredump literally states that normal demons can rise to be true demons. This was way before FGO.
The F/HA loredump refers to True Demons as beings created by God that have nothing to do with the "false" demons imagined by mankind that possess people. Direct text citation or GTFO.
>Goetia called himself a high-dimensional existence that is not connected to or needs of humanity, which is how true demons are defined.
But he literally is a "false" demon created by a human. He's not a True Demon who have nothing to do with humanity and reside within pocket dimensions spawning lesser ones. The only True Demons we've seen are CCC Kiara and (implied) whatever is creating the things Prelati's Spellbook summons.
>BB used True demon and beast as equivalents/synonymous in Seraph.
Direct text citation or GTFO.
>Like it or not, the skill "Independent Manifestation" is now connected to this concept and was created to explain it in RPG terms.
You have no idea what I'm saying at all. True Demons aren't just able to manifest without a Holy Grail War ritual, their origin and existence is TOTALLY UNRELATED TO HUMANS AT ALL. They're completely pre-existing beings.
>You saw how a human, Kiara, became a true demon.
By having Hans essentially retcon her past so that she was a True Demon instead of a human. It's literally retroactively rewriting reality so that she is an entirely different being and always was, not "True Demons originate from humans". True Demons are LITERALLY DEFINED as having no relation to humans at all.
>She looked nothing like Karen's ramblings. How the fuck is a human with horns in magenta and white lingerie "lovecraftian" to you?
Caren literally knows the most about demons out of anyone we've seen on-screen in this setting, she's an expert, not some idiot "rambling". The lovecraftian thing is from F/HA mats, not Caren.

>>36942005
Literally more coherent and in line with pre-FGO canon than anything else to come out in the 2010s.

>>36941991
They're not, but this GOlet wannabe lorefag keeps trying to insist True Demons and Beasts are the same thing despite it going against everything we are told about True Demons in F/HA and mats.

I miss when FGO and FGO lore apologists just got shot down in this general. TsukiR is great but the increased activity and resulting influx of GOlets here is a huge problem.

>>36942014
Ok, secondary:
>EXTRA世界において、悪魔憑きであれ、自らの業で変化したものであれ、真性悪魔を生み出した現象は２０３０年現在、一つの成功例 もない。

Translate this. It literally LITERALLY describes true demon as possible wrought by possession OR transformation. Kiara is the only one in that setting.

Never brings up that parroted shit that's just Karen about being some fallen angels or some retarded shit that looks like Church bullshit.

>>36942070
>Translate this. It literally LITERALLY describes true demon as possible wrought by possession OR transformation. Kiara is the only one in that setting.
I know Kiara is the only True Demon in Extra timelines. I'm talking about others. Still does not make True Demons the same thing as the "false" demons the Church exorcises, or much less Beasts.
>Never brings up that parroted shit that's just Karen about being some fallen angels or some retarded shit that looks like Church bullshit.
Caren is literally the most knowledgable person in the setting and the Church are basically the foremost experts on demons as the only faction actively involved in fighting them. The scene exists, in the narrative, to flesh out what demons exactly are in the setting. We later get the same info corroborated by the objective narrator in the material book.

Love the weird subset of the anglo TM fanbase that would rather be drawn and quartered than admit the Church are right about something in-universe, because they have a bias against them on reddit atheist grounds

>>36942014
Did you read Extra lore stuff about true demons?
It says that demons are false because the possessed vessel cannot bear them to complete their transformation so the essence of the demon dissolves with the host. ​Likewise, the individuals that devilized themselves only reach the cap of friends.

It implies that indeed true demons are born from these two processes: either a perfect possession of a host that can resist the demon or a human reaching that level that no longer is recognized as human. It's origin isn't stated to be the one you say. But those true demons aren't anchored by our perception or dimension.

Kiara is the later example (human who went fiend and beyond).

Karen is probably most likely repeating some bullshit she heard of the Church, like how mages, the ones chosen by God, are heretics.

>>36942109
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ib19evMJJVI

>>36942151
Read F/HA again retard:
>聖堂教会が語る『受肉した魔』もこの例に当て嵌まる。
>生物である前に『魔』として創造されたモノたちは、人間より高度な魔術を行使する。
>魔術師（われわれ）の魔術回路は疑似神経にすぎない。人間としての神経の裏に作り上げた、後付の能力だ。
>だが―――『魔』には疑似神経などない。
>彼らにとって、その生体機能全てが『魔』を呼び込む為の機能なのだから。
>教会ではそれを『真性悪魔』と呼ぶのだそうだ。
>人間の想念を被（かぶ）って『個体名』に成る偽物とは違う、主が遣わした、人が名付ける前からそうであった本当の『悪魔』だと。

also
>Karen is probably most likely repeating some bullshit she heard of the Church, like how mages, the ones chosen by God, are heretics.
Caren's info from the Church is corroborated by the material book, which is objective, encyclopedic information free of in-universe biases. Also lol @ believing the Nasu God of Abraham wants humans to become baby-eating sociopaths and usurp him.

>>36942014
>I know Kiara is the only True Demon in Extra timelines
And in the Fate Extra mats, describe true demons nothing like Karen did. Other than the passive Lovecraft example that barely applies anymore. It is exactly fitting like a glove to Beasts. You can't take Karen with her Church bias as some kind of lore expert because the Church has proved pretty ignorant in general.

Because true demons CAN be demons with perfect materialization or humans (or someting else?) that become demons. There's nothing said about things existing and coming from God, actually.

Of course, Fou and Tiamat and Bitch are a bit of a big question, but the demonic Beasts are set up since there: Mara, Goetia, Kiara, and perhaps Olga.

Sakuraface fanservice shit aside, is a little silly to downplay the Buddhism equivalent to Satan. because Beast III is Mara crown. What other bigger fish do you think exists out there? Certainly not Lovecraft's fictional shit.

>>36942175
Ok, but nobody cares about FHA? It's Karen being unreliable.
Now Nasu:
真性悪魔【事柄】
EXTRA世界にあっても、悪魔の概念は人類にとって最大の障害として扱われる。
神が全知能であるのなら、悪魔は人知無能の存在。
手の届く範囲にありながら決して理解できない淵ふちだ。
stay nightにおいて悪魔は偽物しか存在せず、本物————受肉した悪魔に人間は太刀打ちできないとされる。
（＊受肉した悪魔を退散させた例は一件のみ記録されているが、それはまた別の話）
たいてい悪魔は憑くものとされ、人間の体を用いて受肉しようと働くが、苗床になる人間の精神が耐えられず、周囲に魔をまき散らして自壊するのが通例。
中には自らの業によって人間でなくなってしまい、結果的に悪魔のカテゴリーに含まれる人間もいるが、これは魔人化と呼ばれるもので真性悪魔ではない。
EXTRA世界において、悪魔憑きであれ、自らの業で変化したものであれ、真性悪魔を生み出した現象は２０３０年現在、一つの成功例 もない。
悪魔、魔人化、と銘打ってはいるが、その在り方は異なる文明圏、異なる惑星に住まう高次元生命体と変わらな い。なにしろこの認識宇宙における『人』でなくなったのだから。

Nasu even corrects Karen. It's not that the fake demons are "fake" but that their hosts cannot actually materialize them properly.

>>36942209
>And in the Fate Extra mats, describe true demons nothing like Karen did. Other than the passive Lovecraft example that barely applies anymore. It is exactly fitting like a glove to Beasts. You can't take Karen with her Church bias as some kind of lore expert because the Church has proved pretty ignorant in general.
What part "fits like a glove to Beasts"?
>You can't take Karen with her Church bias as some kind of lore expert because the Church has proved pretty ignorant in general.
What are the Church "pretty ignorant" about? All the demon info we've gotten from them is corroborated by material books, which are written from a real-world perspective providing objective information about Nasu's setting.
>Because true demons CAN be demons with perfect materialization or humans (or someting else?) that become demons. There's nothing said about things existing and coming from God, actually.
Except, you know, HA mats.
>Of course, Fou and Tiamat and Bitch are a bit of a big question, but the demonic Beasts are set up since there: Mara, Goetia, Kiara, and perhaps Olga.
Divine Spirit/human fusion, "false" demon, another Divine Spirit/human fusion, and ??? respectively. None of those are pre-existing eldritch fallen angels. Only the latter could fit that category and we have no idea what it is as of now.
>Sakuraface fanservice shit aside, is a little silly to downplay the Buddhism equivalent to Satan. because Beast III is Mara crown.
I wouldn't downplay the Buddhist equivalent of Satan -- but Nasu already did, by having it be a mere Divine Spirit, a dead and limited creation of human belief (to set aside the Sakuraface nonsense).
>What other bigger fish do you think exists out there? Certainly not Lovecraft's fictional shit.
I didn't say True Demons are literally Yog-Sothoth in-universe or whatever. I was saying that F/HA mats explicitly state they are similar in nature to the kind of entities in Lovecraft's fiction.

>>36942227
>Ok, but nobody cares about FHA? It's Karen being unreliable.
Mats literally corroborate what she says and the point of the scene from a writing perspective is to establish what exactly demons are. I swear to god you fuckers will believe literally anything so long as it's not the Church.
>Nasu even corrects Karen. It's not that the fake demons are "fake" but that their hosts cannot actually materialize them properly.
This literally makes a distinction between “false” demons and True Demons (or “incarnated demons”). It does say that the false demons can become incarnated, but that these are not actually True Demons, which are higher-dimensional lifeforms. It even explicitly says they are related to the Abrahamic God, holy cope.

>>36942245
Ah yes, Kiara, the angel of God.

Stop loresperging who cares

>>36942272
Kiara turned herself into one via Hans' Noble Phantasm, I've explained this like 5 times now.

>>36942245
>EXTRA世界において、悪魔憑きであれ、自らの業で変化したものであれ、真性悪魔を生み出した現象は２０３０年現在、一つの成功例 もない。
This literally implies they can become true demons, though, retard. Even if there were not cases until Kiara. That is.

>It even explicitly says they are related to the Abrahamic God, holy cope.

Like all Solomon's demons? like The Beast of Revelations?

>>36942286
Kiara is literally the case of a human who transformed into a demon, who was called fiend, but in her case, she was pushed to the limits to complete it.
If a random shit tier Servant NP can accomplish it, I'm absolutely floored why you can't understand Kama became Mara.

>>36942293
>This literally implies they can become true demons, though, retard. Even if there were not cases until Kiara. That is.
Uhhhhh:
中には自分のカルマによって人間ではなくなってしまい、結果的に悪魔のカテゴリーに含まれるものもありますが、これは悪魔化と呼ばれるもので、真の悪魔ではありません。
>Like all Solomon's demons? like The Beast of Revelations?
Solomon's demons are artificial creations, a living Thaumaturgical Foundation. The Beast of Revelations is also an artificial creation, though it is one based on Abrahamic concepts. True Demons are the real deal.

>>36942306
>If a random shit tier Servant NP can accomplish it, I'm absolutely floored why you can't understand Kama became Mara.
The Mara in FGO is just a really strong Divine Spirit though, is it not?
Also Hans' NP is crazy shit if used properly.

>>36942314
>Solomon's demons are artificial creations, a living Thaumaturgical Foundation.
They were creations of God, using Solomon as his in between.

>The Beast of Revelations is also an artificial creation
Same thing.

>Uhhhhh
What about it? Immediately below it says this:
>EXTRA世界において、悪魔憑きであれ、自らの業で変化したものであれ、真性悪魔を生み出した現象は２０３０年現在、一つの成功例 もない。

This implied it's possible but hasn't happened in Extra world up 2030 until Kiara. Not sure why are you stubborn?

>True Demons are the real deal.
They are the real deal though. Goetia is even described as a high dimensional lifeform.

>>36942363
I'm going to bet after CCC is retconed with the remake, Nasu will say "True Demon is just the label for Humanity Evil" in Tsukiworlds, forget all what Karen said like how Cath Palug is a dog according to Avenger hahah.

>>36941952
Im not the one you're replying to but i remember Tohsaka stating that if some mage in the summoning department were to witness a servant in first person, they would hide themselves in their room for weeks because having heroic spirit as familiar just seems so farfetched for them. Plus, the HGW is related tp the 3rd magic, its obvious that people at MA would have interest in it.

>>36942388
>They were creations of God, using Solomon as his in between.
In FGO or IRL? In FGO they're stated to be "false" demons created as a living Thaumaturgical Foundation.
>Same thing.
No, the Beast of Revelations is basically a manifestation of all of humanity's negative thoughts via the Imitation Grail. It's Proto Angra, except without the villager for those thoughts to be imposed onto.
>This implied it's possible but hasn't happened in Extra world up 2030 until Kiara. Not sure why are you stubborn?
I'm talking about the statement that what "false" demons become is similar to but not literally a True Demon.
>They are the real deal though. Goetia is even described as a high dimensional lifeform.
By "real deal" I mean actual fallen angels and not simply "false" demons that got really strong or living magic foundations.
>>36942415
It's awful either way, but I would not be arguing if people just said he retconned it instead of insisting F/HA does not say what it clearly does, or pretending Caren isn't a demon expert that's corroborated by mats (which she is, on both counts). The problem is the apologists.

what the fuck is their problem?

>>36942497
Sneedmode

>>36942329
Beast III crown is called "Mara."
Kama can access and transform into an aspect of Mara. Kiara is also described like Mara. The Beast crowns and classes have certain similar attributes even if Nasu is being fucking annoying to fucking elaborate.
But III is Mara and is about Lust and Desire. While IV is related to animals being angry with human considering Bitch and Fou. It could have a name too.
VI is connected to the Anti Christ.
VII may be literally Satan.

We don't fucking know the origin of those shits, but the candidates elevate themselves to fit a category and become it. Maybe Nasu overhauled the true demons to be the original holders of the Crowns and their manifestations spread around the world until some managed to form back. For Fate at least. Since it's not Chuch shit anymore.

Perhaps in Tsukihime now Nasu will explain Primate Murder and Goetia would become True Demons.

>>36942510
Alright to be clear, are you saying Mara is a separate unrelated thing that Beast III taps into an aspect of?

>>36942466
>In FGO or IRL? In FGO they're stated to be "false" demons created as a living Thaumaturgical Foundation.
FGO you idiot. Solomon didn't make them on his own, he followed God's orders.

>No, the Beast of Revelations is basically a manifestation of all of humanity's negative thoughts via the Imitation Grail. It's Proto Angra, except without the villager for those thoughts to be imposed onto.
Except CCC already retconned this a bit revealing that the Mother Harlot Grail that births the Beast is the anti Christ Grail which is the opposite to Jesus'.

>I'm talking about the statement that what "false" demons become is similar to but not literally a True Demon.
And below that it implies they can become True Demons though. Possession demons weakness is that their host will disperse before they do, also in there.
Kiara is an example of fiend who managed to do it.

>By "real deal" I mean actual fallen angels and not simply "false" demons that got really strong or living magic foundations.
Anon? The true demons are described as higher dimensional being unlike false demons. Goetia is discriminated as a higher dimensional being after he sheds Solomon's flesh and reveals his Beast I saint graph.

>Shirou ask Saber if there's a secret technique that would help him defeat a servant in Fate route
>Saber is mad and tells him that such ridiculous thing does not exist
>Shirou defeats Dark Saber with badass Triple Linked Crane Wings in HF bad end
Its about the little things that anime secondaries wouldnt know

>>36942565
>FGO you idiot. Solomon didn't make them on his own, he followed God's orders.
God gave him the method, but they're not actually fallen angels of God. A human still made them. They also don't reside in pocket dimensions or spawn lesser demons.
>Except CCC already retconned this a bit revealing that the Mother Harlot Grail that births the Beast is the anti Christ Grail which is the opposite to Jesus'.
Not really a retcon seeing as they never stated what specifically the Grail in Prototype is, just that the Church has it stored in their vaults as an imitation/dud Grail they found in the search for the real one. Doesn't change what the ProtoBeast is, either.
>And below that it implies they can become True Demons though. Possession demons weakness is that their host will disperse before they do, also in there.
The text you keep citing explicitly says that what they become is not the same thing as a True Demon.
>Anon? The true demons are described as higher dimensional being unlike false demons. Goetia is discriminated as a higher dimensional being after he sheds Solomon's flesh and reveals his Beast I saint graph.
Goetia is not actually a fallen angel.

>>36942533
I'm only speculating that perhaps the Seven Beasts and the Seven Grand Servants crowns had some origin we ignore. Some Beast candidates are given certain traits that match according to the Number (III and IV are specific). Beast III "horn" is called "Mara's horn." Maybe Mara, the legit original Mara, was real but is no more for whatever purpose, and there are traces of him that materializes in that horn. And becoming a Beast is becoming them in a way. Even in FGO, they never faced the Beast real endgame form.

Grand Servants are weird too because even if Alaya uses them, they are described as "the true Servants of the Root" and "messengers from Heaven" (angels, basically). And how only the seven original classes can be grand Servant makes me wonder why? Why not add all the bullshit new ones? Hassan's connection to an angel (Azrael) is highly specific too, but that's my rambling here, and how only he can be Grand Assassin.

>>36942638
I can see Nasu doing something like this (it's certainly more interesting than what the other anon I've been yelling at is suggesting) but one thing:
>Grand Servants are weird too because even if Alaya uses them, they are described as "the true Servants of the Root" and "messengers from Heaven" (angels, basically)
This is certainly weird since angels aren't dead humans. There are implications that YHWH is related to or even contiguous with Alaya but he seems like more of a sentient being than Alaya is.
>And how only the seven original classes can be grand Servant makes me wonder why? Why not add all the bullshit new ones?
Clunky retcon. There originally were no "grand servant classes", F/SN lore was that Zolgen created the class containers and Heroic Spirits summoned by Alaya do not have them.
>Hassan's connection to an angel (Azrael) is highly specific too, but that's my rambling here, and how only he can be Grand Assassin.
I wonder when we're actually going to learn what Angels really are. Case Files has magi using the concept of an angel as a basis for magecraft but that barely counts. I prefer them as "Alaya Elementals" of sort but that's just me.

>>36942623
>God gave him a method
God used and order Solomon to do everything, he was imbued with divine authority according to Roman, and he wasn't considered "human" like that. Goetia is a stand in for a Demiurge enemy in FGO.

>The text you keep citing explicitly says that what they become is not the same thing as a True Demon.
The text I'm sitting on implies they CAN become one, but as for 2030 Extra world, they didn't.
Before Kiara.

>Goetia is not actually a fallen angel.
True demons aren't described as fallen angels though here. Kiara never became a fallen angel of anything even as a true demon.

And the difference between false and true demons in the text is that true are: higher dimensional forms. Which is what Goetia became as Beast I.

Beast I is the True Demon. Not the original Goetia. Like Kiara nun isn't the True Demon, anon. That's what I'm arguing "Beasts" class is a label for beings who ascend to be like True Demons.

>>36942745
>God used and order Solomon to do everything, he was imbued with divine authority according to Roman, and he wasn't considered "human" like that.
Divine authority as in Authority? The thing Divine Spirits have?
>Goetia is a stand in for a Demiurge enemy in FGO.
Where the fuck are you getting this
>The text I'm sitting on implies they CAN become one, but as for 2030 Extra world, they didn't.
Again, 中には自分のカルマによって人間ではなくなってしまい、結果的に悪魔のカテゴリーに含まれるものもありますが、これは悪魔化と呼ばれるもので、真の悪魔ではありません。
>True demons aren't described as fallen angels though here. Kiara never became a fallen angel of anything even as a true demon.
They are said to be creations of God in Extra mats and called fallen angels in HA mats.
>And the difference between false and true demons in the text is that true are: higher dimensional forms. Which is what Goetia became as Beast I.
No, the difference is that they are entirely different beings. False demons cannot become True Demons naturally.
>Beast I is the True Demon. Not the original Goetia. Like Kiara nun isn't the True Demon, anon.
CCC literally says Kiara nun is a True Demon, or something similar to one. Goetia is not ever stated to be one.
>That's what I'm arguing "Beasts" class is a label for beings who ascend to be like True Demons.
Then why are Beasts not beings that reside in pocket dimensions, have nothing to do with humanity, spawn lesser demons, and resemble eldritch horrors?

You guys are still going on about this huh?

>>36942638
Wasn't the very basis for grand servants basically '7 counter guardians' to hold down primate murder from 20 years ago?

Also this thread is literally church vs magicfags. Who said this wasn't the basis for TM lol.

>>36942882
>Wasn't the very basis for grand servants basically '7 counter guardians' to hold down primate murder from 20 years ago?
That's where nasu got the idea yeah. Still a dumb retcon.
>Also this thread is literally church vs magicfags. Who said this wasn't the basis for TM lol.
Life imitates art.

>>36942698
>I can see Nasu doing something like this
I'm not sure how the fuck it works yet, but we still don't know the Crowns and the Horns origin. Nasu has been vague and completely obnoxious because maybe he hasn't decided. The concepts so far are solid, the candidates on the other hand... He needs to dial down the fanservice to take them seriously.

>This is certainly weird since angels aren't dead humans. There are implications that YHWH is related to or even contiguous with Alaya but he seems like more of a sentient being than Alaya is.

Alaya doesn't overlap with God, or Roman would bring it up. He separates them. And he knows God better than anyone. What caught my attention is that the Grand Servants are called "True Servants from the Root."
Is it possible the model for the 7 classes (which origins are murky because it seems Solomon made the demons as prototypes for this too) are angels?

What if those angels or fallen angels became metaphorical crowns and horns of power?

>Clunky retcon. There originally were no "grand servant classes", F/SN lore was that Zolgen created the class containers and Heroic Spirits summoned by Alaya do not have them.
It's been years and Alaya has incorporated the normal extra classes, why not give us Grand Alter Ego?

>I wonder when we're actually going to learn what Angels really are.
Someday, they are mentioned vaguely around Solomon and Galahad, but the specific Azrael as angel of death and Hassan as the only Grand Assassin is something.

>>36942882
>>36942896
It was never counter guardians only spirit guardians (vague).
It's described multiple times 7 Grand Servants are summoned to fight a Beast, but that never happens as per Nasuverse. It's always one or two if any. The system would be great if Alaya chan was competent.

>>36942899
>I'm not sure how the fuck it works yet, but we still don't know the Crowns and the Horns origin. Nasu has been vague and completely obnoxious because maybe he hasn't decided. The concepts so far are solid, the candidates on the other hand... He needs to dial down the fanservice to take them seriously.
I'm not fond of the Beast concept to begin with, because I feel it invalidates the subversion of the "ultimate evil" concept that Angra did so well. It could definitely work better if he didn't shove random fanservice pseudos and such in, though.
>Alaya doesn't overlap with God, or Roman would bring it up. He separates them. And he knows God better than anyone.
Weird. What the FUCK is God if not Alaya-related at the very least? He’s instrumental in ending the Age of Gods, has known activity in the Age of Man, and is super pro-humanity as opposed to pro-nature, so he’s not a Divine Spirit (though you could argue he is something like a solar Divine Spirit akin to Amaterasu that can persist outside the time axis).
>What caught my attention is that the Grand Servants are called "True Servants from the Root."
Yeah, because they're supposed to be Heroic Spirits as summoned by Alaya...but F/SN established that those don't have Servant Class Containers.
>Is it possible the model for the 7 classes (which origins are murky because it seems Solomon made the demons as prototypes for this too) are angels? What if those angels or fallen angels became metaphorical crowns and horns of power?
Michael as the basis for Saber, Azrael as the basis for Assassin...I like where we're going with this. Beasts as imitations of the strongest True Demons, VII as a false Lucifer...hmm. I should note that there is existing info about Satan in the Nasuverse from the Heaven's Feel movie Q&A, i'll include it in my post.
>It's been years and Alaya has incorporated the normal extra classes, why not give us Grand Alter Ego?
Reasons™
>Someday, they are mentioned vaguely around Solomon and Galahad, but the specific Azrael as angel of death and Hassan as the only Grand Assassin is something.
What info on them comes from Galahad?

>>36942826
>Divine authority as in Authority? The thing Divine Spirits have?
Not him but yeah, Solomon epilogue described Solomon as possessing too many "Divine Authorities" (like big capital) to be considered human. Nasu never clarified them since Servant Solomon didn't have those. It was probably a thing he had as God's sockpuppet. It's like "human" Goetia randomly having the 9 crowns without explanation as skill in game. The Goetia stats is the nerfed Goetia (his Nega Summon EX is he "downgraded" one). We don't have a single clue about pre Asspull Nova one. It's frustrating.

>>36942960
Should've said this in that post but what nasu seems to be implying here is that fallen angels/True Demons are weakened by their contact with the human world, and that there are multiple Satans for each Abrahamic faith (a Christian Satan, an Islamic Shaitan, etc.). I wonder how the Old Testament Satan interacts with this.

Also I need Grand Saber Saint Mercurius if all of this is legit.

>>36942971
Does God have Authorities or did he simply give Solomon them? He's implied to be something much greater than a mere Divine Spirit.

>>36942497
pointy mouth my beloved

>>36942960
I think Angra works well as a potential candidate, similar to 666-kun (maybe the same horn?). Sadly Nasu wants to mix him up with Sakura, of course, because we cannot have an awesome monster without attaching a waifu to this. Manaka at least has the decency to be a villain wearing modest clothes.
"Beast" is a good idea because it evokes the Apocalypse. It's the execution that bothers me sometimes. Kama/Mara is a great pick, but did we really need to have her as a Sakura pseudo? Kiara was unnecessary.

>What the FUCK is God if not Alaya-related at the very least?
Root-something? Roman talks about Alaya, but never calls him God. Considering their intimate bond, he would know. Aoko has some theories. Remember she speculated that modern magecraft purpose was to guide this era mages to the Root? Who handed those methods, but Solomon? It's a bit of a waste Solomon was reborn and lived as a modern man and had absolutely nothing in the Clock Tower outside Chaldea, instead he chose Guda to pass his torch to.

>Michael as the basis for Saber, Azrael as the basis for Assassin...I like where we're going with this. Beasts as imitations of the strongest True Demons,
I'm not sure if imitations. But similar but not identical to the idea blood? They are conceptualized there and stopped being a thing when a candidate reaches the horn or crown, they "become" the new version of them. Something like that.
>What info on them comes from Galahad?
He ascended to where the angels are, gave them true Grail, and disappeared from the world. IIRC, The Galahad in the throne are remnants of him.

>>36942987
Living King Solomon had them, probably granted. I figured that Solomon was to God what Arc is to Gaia.

>>36942960
We knew that (the pic) from the explanation of the demon gods. We knew that (the pic) from the explanation of the demon gods origin. They were originally gods or other beings that got affected by humanity and Soloman's harem'ed them into a conceptual spells. But they were super old. Astaroth demon god was originally Astarte, Amon was Amon Ra, etc.