/jp/ - Otaku Culture

how is that not obvious?

>>3668352
No, Saber came back for the food.

>>3668380

>>3668413

Yeah.

Merlin said two great miracles would need to happen, and both did.

man, I still havent ctrl'd through Fate to see that extra endubg

>>3668458
I didn't do that either, its too much, however, you can look it up on youtube.

>>3668437
What two miracles?

>>3668476
>The magus said so.

>The realization of that dream was pretty much impossible.

>"If you want to meet again as normal people, two miracles must occur.

>One must wait continuously, one must pursue endlessly.

>They must realize that it is impossible to succeed yet at the same time be capable of enduring patiently. Is that... the story of a dream that shouldn't be waited upon?"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZVO-mnvcneE&feature=PlayList&p=8190E183D0DFF6AD&index=22

According to Last Episode, yes.

So.

Counter Guardians get to be free of their fate if they become true Heroic Spirits after-the-fact.

Fate Shirou becomes a true Heroic Spirit.

Does that mean Archer's free?

>>3668696

No, it has to be his own, original universe.

I.e. he makes the pledge and does the miracle jiggy, then later someone writes stories about him and he becomes a Hero.

As he was remembered as a warmonger thanks to the guy who sentenced him to death, that's not gonna happen.

>>3668696
>Fate Shirou becomes a true Heroic Spirit.

...what?

>As he was remembered as a warmonger thanks to the guy who sentenced him to death, that's not gonna happen.
Just give it some time, a few years later he probably became some sort of symbol of democracy and love.

>>3668732
>Just give it some time, a few years later he probably became some sort of symbol of democracy and love.
Judging from how he's still a Counter Guardian, I'll say that something like that never happened.

>>3668696

My interpretation is this:

Every story that happens, every single route, all of them technically happened. We witness Shirou and Archer in each of these "Parallel Worlds".

When Shirou makes the Jewel Sword Zelretch, it is literally a blade that accesses energy from incarnation of Reality.

The only way for Shirou and Saber to be together is if one waited for an eternity and one pursued (what must be pursued is not said) endlessly.

Saber waiting forever is part of her heroic legend-- King Arthur goes to Avalon and is a Messianic Figure -- Always "destined to return" or "in the future" Messianic Figures wait somewhere for an eternity. She waits in Avalon.

We can assume that the Fate route may chronologically be the route where Shirou becomes Archer. Then, as Archer, then being freed by the constraints of time and dimensional limits on Consciousness, experiences a nearly infinite number of routes, including all three of the routes in F/SN, though what order Archer, the Servant experiences them is unclear.

We know that by UBW Archer is entirely sick of his life and pretty much wants it to end. However, after he confronts himself, he concedes to Shirou, and thus we can consider that he is still going to continue pursuing (either his Ideals or Saber).

So the second condition is met.

After Archer goes through God knows how many realities, he finally makes it to Avalon. It probably took an insane amount of time for this to happen and he has the heavy burden of experiencing whatever number of realities it took for this possibility to occur. Whether he did it because of his ideals or because of Saber may even end up being irrelevant.

The odds of them having a happy ending were basically low. However, given infinite time (Saber waiting endlessly) and infinite possibilities (Shirou being a heroic spirit gets an infinite number of "re-dos") they finally make it to a happy ending.

>>3668696
I get the impression that both Shirou and Saber had to wait until humanity's existence ended before they reached Avalon. Saber would be obligated to become a Heroic Spirit as soon as she truly died, and Shirou is trapped as a Counter Guardian as long as the collective conscious of humanity exists. To avoid the Throne of Heroic Spirits, Saber waits in her dream until Shirou is no longer needed to protect humanity.

>>3668791
>>3668814
Time isn't linear for Heroic Spirits or for Counter Guardians. The Throne of Heroes exists at "Akasha".

No matter how long they wait, there will always be a universe wherein humanity lives and thus a "counter-force for humanity" is necessary.

This is part of what drove Archer to the depths of bitterness he sank to. He'll NEVER be free. Ever. He condemned himself to his own personal hell.

>>3668842
I think that's something you could never know. As Archer is an infinite being and is continually summoned to alternate realities an infinite number of things can happen to him.

You should remember he pulls out of this bitterness after UBW. UBW is Archers moment where he wants to stop experiencing infinite realities, however, Shirou gives him reason to continue.

It's ridiculous to claim that it is impossible for Archer to somehow end up with Saber, because we do not have all of the Servant lore accessible or even a particularly great deal of knowledge about them and what can happen to them.

>>3668842
Also, not all servants are connected to the throne.

" Arthuria, however, is a special case. Although she is counted as a Heroic Spirit, her soul is not inside the Throne for she is not technically dead yet. Instead, in accordance with her contract with the world, her body is frozen in a state between life and death while her soul is partially detached from it so she can fulfill her role as a hero. The reason why she is able to remember the events of the 4th Grail War during the Heaven's Feel 5 is because the mind of her original body receives the memories of what she experiences each time that she is summoned in the form of dreams."

Other exceptions are possible and other events are also possible.

>>3668878
In the original legend, Arthur never died. He was brought by Morgana to Avalon alive (albeit fatally wounded), and then was healed there. HF shirou probably didn't became a CG, but with archer's memory probably know about his feelings. Maybe he became an heroic spirit, and then was able to recrate by himself Zelretch, and then fucking with multiverse contacted CG EMIYA to send him to Avalon (the world fucked ? well we'll just fuck it back)

>>3668990
Also, Merlin is better than Shirou, he's with Morgana *and* Vivianne. Confirmed more or less by Arthuria that said somewhere that he was weak to women and end up with some (or something like that).

>>3669021
Is he in F/HA?

What's the progress on F/HA anyways? I need to plan vacation time accordingly.

>>3668990
>In the original legend, Arthur never died

Are you high? You should go read it again. Bedivere throws excalibur into the lake and the whole ending scene is Arthur's funeral as he is put into a boat and taken away by three wailing ladies in black. The WHOLE ENDING is about Arthur's death.

>>3668990
You know how hard it is to become a hero in this day and age?

Archer had to make a contract to be one, and he was still practically unknown.

>>3669028
At this pace, better plan your death.

>>3669130
Show me where it says Arthur died in Le Morte d'Arthur!

>>3669130
sorry I'm not in the mood to translate :

in Le cycle du Graal, Jean Markale (reconstitution chronologique des récits du Graal) :
[Taliesin :] "Moi, je suis reparti vers ce royaume, laissant le roi Arthur à la garde de la reine Morgane, mais je peux t'affirmer, roi Bohort, qu'il n'est pas mort et qu'il reviendra sur ce rivage le jour où les dieux l'auront décidé, lorsque Morgane aura guéri ses plaies et que le monde sera enfin prêt à voir la splendeur étincelante de son épée Excalibur."
cf la tradition populaire en Cornouailles de la dormition

>>3668869
Archer pulls out of his bitterness in UBW, but he also admits that it doesn't mean a goddamned thing because he'll still be locked into paying off a contract he fulfilled.

This is THOROUGHLY covered in the game. Archer's only chance to be freed of his contract was a 1-in-1,000,000,000,000 chance to be summoned into a timeline where "he" existed as a mortal, and a 1-in-1,000,000,000,000 chance to wipe himself out of existence with a temporal paradox which probably wouldn't actually reach the throne anyway.

The other alternative is that Archer be acknowledged as a true hero, in which case he would become a proper Heroic Spirit and his contract would be superceded by being a high-ranking divine spirit under his own power.

>>3668878
Arturia might conceivably be freed from her Counter Guardian contract, but as "King Arthur" she would still be stored in the throne immediately after her death on the hill because she's a major hero.

Lancelot was. There's no avoiding this fact, even if she won't become a "power" like Archer did.

>>3669487
Learning japanese could be quicker indead

>>3669674
It does mean something, because it's how his mind is changed that matters, not how the carnage he's thrown into continues to occur.

It's about being able to throw yourself into hell for a principle and still say it was all worth it.

>>3669701
That doesn't mean that it will free him from the hell. Just that he can conceive of bearing it again.

Whatever, RIn was hotter than Saber

>>3669726

>>3669729

I believe you guys should note the fact that spirits from the heroic seat aren't tied to time at all.
The moment someone becomes a heroic spirit (CG is a sub category) they will already have experienced an infinite ammount of experiences as they are not bound by time but can still be called back to time, from any time, to any place and simultaneously.

If we use some logic then we would probably end up with the sad truth that Archer have already had an infinite ammount of chances like the one in UBW and that it in fact didn't change anything for him. The chances were probably so few compared to all of his other summons that he never felt the experience.

And as they said, Archer being summoned into his own time like in f/sn was a chance next to impossible, and it really is as it is a unique condition among an infinite ammount of possible summons.

In his records Archer probably have something along the lines of 99% Counter Guardian work and 1% other summons (like grail wars etc), the chance of him being summoned summoned in his own time would probably be so small so that it wouldn't even show on a chart.

If each and every summon leaves a record of the collected experience and stores it inside "the records" then it isn't that weird that he can't remember it.
If one would see the records as an HDD with infinite space and what Archer actually can remember as RAM with limited capacity, then it is only natural for him to only remember Counter Guardian work and possibly some something else.
The point is basically that him remembering the important events in UBW would be kind of like doing a data search for a specific file in an HDD with infinite space (you would most likely never find it).

>>3669753
Spirits alone don't have a consciousness anyway. Being stored in the throne of heroes is a non-existence. The only time EMIYA can determine how shitty his situation is is when he is summoned as a servant.

>>3669779
This is explicitly contradicted by Archer's explanation of his existence. Without the ability to think and change within the Throne of Heroes itself, Archer would not be able to exist.

Heroic Spirits that are not "Counter Guardians" may work this way, but Counter Guardians do not. They have full consciousness of the bullshit they've submitted themselves to.

>>3669852
They don't. No brain = no awareness, this applies to everything. Being summoned as a servant gives Archer a perspective into what his soul has been doing. Everything Archer talks about was put together on the spot after he was summoned, which is why he had 'amnesia'. Too much shit in his little head to sort out.

I might add the fact that it is plausible that Archer's memories are fuzzy as well.
The clear differance between him and Servants is the fact that Counter Guardian is pretty simple and most of the time the same.
The summons of the other spirits are most likely a lot more unique thus making it harder to remember things as one actually would have to rememver things as a whole.
For Archer it could probably be seen as some kind of jigsaw puzzle, if you imagine each and every piece of the puzzle to be a memory from a different summon, and then put the pieces together, it would probably still end up as a somewhat complete picture wheras if one would do the same with a Servant the picture would most likely be terribly scrambled.
The memory would most likely still be fuzzy though, even if the picture would be complete enough for him to see that everything sucked, he probably wouldn't be able to remember something like a specific magus named "Carl" if he ever encountered such a person.

>>3669952
...that Counter Guardian work is pretty simple...

>>3669889
#1: EMIYA was happy with dying. When he went to the throne, he was satisfied. He did not hate himself nor had his ideals been pissed all over.

#2: All deployments of Counter Guardians and Heroic Spirits are copies of the original, save in unique cases such as Saber. Archer is not a unique case. The copy in the throne is generally assumed inviolate, however...

#3: In the case of EMIYA, he died happy and was satisfied. He was doing what he wanted to do. Therefore...

#4: The only way his subsequent summonings could have become the bitter, suicidal Archer is if the original "EMIYA" within the throne eventually became bitter, and suicidal.

The plot simply does not work unless the original is a bitter, suicidal douchebag. If it worked the way you described it then he could never become the Archer we see in F/SN because he could never change.

>>3669958
Haven't you read the thread?
The moment he is summoned he starts to remembering things from the recorded archives, and it is the experiences of collected summons that makes him bitter.
This happens after he is summoned.

>>3669992
You don't get it.

This ISN'T POSSIBLE.

ALL Heroic Spirits that are summoned are directly copied from the originals, although they are not themselves the originals. They remember what the originals remember, they behave the way the originals behave.

That is all and everything that they are, with the exception of cases like Saber who has yet to die and is being sustained by her contract with the counter force.

You claim that he starts to remember things from the recorded archives after he is summoned. This is not possible, unless the original within the throne also remembers these things in some fashion. (Which it does, he explains this to you as being like "reading books of his own exploits", although it is obviously more powerful than that because it watered down a Determinator like Shirou who was happy to die for people into a depressed, suicidal wreck willing to wipe out a continuity to stop his own pain.)

Ergo: Once again, Archer cannot exist unless the original within the Throne changes commensurately. Otherwise Archer would be Shirou with more superpowers. This is further supported by the fact that Archer explicitly states that being summoned into a timeline where he can kill himself is the only thing that has kept him sane across eternity.

I am frustrated.

>>3670011
The difference between heroic spirits and counter guardians is the volume of records. Heroic spirits normally don't do anything after death, but counter guardians pretty much have an eternity of extra baggage. A record to a heroic spirit is insignificant compared to their memory, but it's the opposite for a counter guardian. It's why Archer is able to remember why he admired the ideal in UBW.

>>3670028
I realize that, but it doesn't actually change what I said. Unless the Counter Guardian can change within the true (which is necessarily true), Archer cannot exist as he did. He would just be "Shirou with super powers".

>>3670032
Within the THRONE, not within the true.
Self-fail.

>>3670028
I wouldn't bet on archer being completly honest with Rin. Not that he is lying directly, but he is really ellusive, and play on the meaning of his words (like speaking of the probability of realisation of "his objective", and not "gaining the Grail" with Caster).

>>3670032
But the soul in the throne of heroes doesn't have a consciousness. Memories shape people in the Nasuverse and all of that is recorded into the soul, but without a body it is just information.

For instance Roa after he is first killed is completely gone, all that's left is the information imprinted on his soul. When that soul makes it's way into whoever Roa chose to be his next incarnation that person slowly gains Roa's memories and eventually becomes like Roa.

That's how it is for Archer, all the counter guardian information is with his soul in the throne, but the soul alone can not think or feel. Given a body by the holy grail and he is able to.

Protip: Nasu doesn't do happy ends.

Pursuing endlessly and waiting endlessly means there's no end to the journey or the patience. The epilogue is Schrodinger's Good End, something that did and did not take place.

>>3670127
Nasu does happy ends. Even if he does like his works to be angst filled.

Urobuchi Gen doesn't do happy ends.

>>3670127

Last Episode is a Good End, but Nasu only jammed that in Realta Nua because everyone complained Fate was a downer.

>>3670135
And I repeat: Nasu doesn't really do happy ends.

>>3670021
I can't blame you. I'd be pissed at anyone trying to marginalize my chances of meeting Saber in the hereafter.

ITT people forget that UBW Archer loses all of his memories as a Servant in the Grail War since it was not a summoning related to his role as a Counter Guardian.

>>3670180
All servants return to the root. They all get the record. However, for a heroic spirit a record is as good as a needle in a haystack.

>>3670186

I'm still trying to find the scene that would counters your statement. However, if I remember correctly, it can be summed up to the effect that only Counter Guardians have access to those books since they are the only types of heroes that are summoned by Alaya. Even then, the books only recount the information that they gathered during summonings that Alaya was behind.

>>3670292
But the experience of collected summons is smething that is recorded for all servants, even for those summoned "normally" through the heavens feel system.

Nothing ever said that only Counter Guardians had access to the records, you are most likely just wrong.

>>3670180
>>3670186

You both forgot UBW's epilogue?

It implies that EMIYA on his throne "read the archive" of that route.

>>3670368
>>3670354

Perhaps I misread some of the key points of the route. As you can tell, I've been under the impression that the only memories recorded in the Akashic Record are those that they obtained in their lives + those they obtained in summonings unrelated to events similar to the Fuyuki Grail Wars (could cause time paradoxes, which neither Alaya or Gaia want).

>>3670385

Nope, summoning via Heaven's Feel counts.

>>3670393

Guess I have another reason to re-read UBW route then.